E103: Peace, Fulfillment & Redefining Success with Matt Hall

In Episode 4 of our Success Beyond Money mini-series, Emma sits down with entrepreneur, coach, and host of the Success School podcast, Matt Hall.

Matt shares an honest and powerful story about how his definition of success evolve...from chasing fame, money, and external validation to building a life centred around peace and fulfilment.

From starting his first business at 19 to navigating burnout, heartbreak, and the pressure of hustle culture, Matt opens up about the lessons that reshaped how he approaches business, personal growth, and happiness.

This conversation is a refreshing reminder that success isn’t about what it looks like on the outside...it’s about how it feels on the inside.

If you’ve ever questioned whether the traditional version of success is really worth it, this episode will give you a new perspective.

In This Episode We Talk About

• Why many entrepreneurs chase the wrong definition of success
• Matt’s early belief that success meant fame, fortune, and being a millionaire by 30
• The burnout and personal challenges that forced him to rethink everything
• The reality behind hustle culture and “alpha bro” business coaching
• Why hitting financial milestones doesn’t always bring the happiness you expect
• The loneliness that can come with entrepreneurial success
• The power of learning through experience instead of theory
• How Matt redefined success around peace and fulfilment
• Why authenticity matters when building a personal brand and online business
• The importance of building a business that aligns with your values

Who is Matt Hall?

Matt Hall is a Guinness World Record holder, Channel 4 regular and online business strategist known for helping everyday people turn their skills, story or passion into scalable online income.

With over 15 years of business experience and thousands supported through his podcast, coaching and online membership Success School, Matt’s mission is to make business clear, accessible and achievable for anyone. He specialises in helping people create and launch digital offers like courses or memberships, even without a large audience or tech background.

Matt has also appeared on E4’s Love Triangle and as a regular “Lunch Mate” panellist on Channel 4’s Steph’s Packed Lunch. Known for his warmth, humour and no-BS approach, he helps entrepreneurs gain clarity, confidence and simple strategies to grow their business.

Instagram - instagram.com/matthallofficial/

About This Mini-Series: Success Beyond Money

This is Episode 4 of a 5-part series where I interview powerful business owners about what success really means once the money is there.

Over the next few episodes, we’ll explore:

- Identity beyond income
- The cost of ambition
- Time vs money
- Health, relationships & legacy
- What happens when you realise “more” isn’t the answer

Want to connect? Find me here:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamemmahine

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-hine

Website:  https://www.emmahine.co.uk

You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/@EmmaHineStrategy

Transcript

Hello and welcome to another one of our mini series where we're discussing success beyond money. Today I am super excited to be having a conversation with the one and only Matt Hall. Hiya Matt, how are you? 

Well, I'm a little bit under the weather, but I'm excited to be here because I love the concept of this show. I love what we're going to be talking about. I think it's an important conversation because I think it's something my podcast Success School has been, we're on nearly 280 episodes now. Wow. And it's all been around what does success really mean? So I just feel like there's so much alignment between kind of the conversations you wanted to have on the show and what I think about and what I think is important. So I'm here, I'm a little bit under the weather, but I'm ploughing through. 

Amazing. Well, not amazing that you're under the weather, of course. Amazing that you're here and you're fired up. 

Yes. 

Okay, what I tend to do is just dive straight in. So what I want to do is take you back a little bit. So when you were younger, what do you think success meant to you back then? 

I thought success was fame and fortune. I thought, I remember, so as a kid, I wanted to be an actor, I wanted to be a performer, and I wanted to be in Hollywood and all that kind of stuff. That was what I thought success was. When I started my first business at 19, it was a business that it was just an opportunity that I had. And I thought, oh, I can make a business out of this. Let's just go with it. wasn't like a well thought out plan. But I do remember thinking, by the time I get to 30, I want to be married, two children and be a millionaire. I remember that's what I thought successful. It was a very naive, Nineteen-year-old ambitious version of what he thought success was. It's not, it's not the same today. Spoiler alert, just to let you know. 

Spoiler alert, he spoilt it for us already. He spoilt it for us already. And what? I think that's quite a common theme, isn't it? when we're young, we have this belief that success is normally something that is things and stuff. And they're two of my favourite words, things and stuff. Only because I can't think of fancier words for them. That's the honest truth we ever do. It is things and stuff. 

Yeah. 

It absolutely is, isn't it? So to move us on in the journey a little bit, you know, you're this 19 year old with this massive ambition to go on and be famous. What happens? 

First and foremost, I realised that the performing arts industry wasn't the wisest choice for me. I realised it didn't matter how talented you are, how hard you work, you still, for so many people, will never have control over your income from that industry. So around about 17, when a lot of people were going off to drama school and things like that, I had been already working as a paid actor, I'd done television, I joined a tribute band, which meant I was getting paid hundreds of pounds every weekend to perform. And I was just like, I was seeing people do the whole drama school thing. And like the dream was to get into the West End and then have to have a second job to have enough money to live in London to be on the West End. And I was just like, wow, there's so few people that are actually financially in a good place and doing the performing thing. And I was like, I can utilize the same talent, skill sets, passion, abilities. And if I put it into more entrepreneurship, I was just like, I can see how you can build something that you have a lot more control over. And that was sort of then the journey that I went on. And I think with me, because I'd had no interest in business and I'd had no education on business. And back then, I didn't even know of like podcasts or mentors or courses, all the stuff we take for granted now. And for a lot of us, we feel like everyone's a mentor, but everyone's got a podcast and it's just not true. But back then, at 19, I didn't know of any of that stuff. So a lot of my lessons in business were based from trying stuff and getting it very wrong and then having to adjust and tweak and so on. But I basically got to the point, I was around about 27 years old and all the metrics for success I'd been chasing It turned out that they weren't working for me. So I was in a relationship with a woman for nearly seven years and we ended up having a really bad breakup and it was a really hard time for me. I really struggled with that because she was the woman I thought I'd get married to and have children with. The business was just keeping me working seven days a week. I was travelling a lot for that business. I was getting up early, working late, working weekends. It was just exhausting. And actually, after I'd paid a lot of my team, quite often I didn't have enough money to pay me, like let alone be making loads of money and being profit. So I kind of got to like, I'm approaching 30 and this dream I'd had of, you know, be 30, millionaire, married, children. I couldn't have been further away from it. And what was worse is I'd not done what I perceived everyone else to be doing, which is go to uni, have lots of fun, have lots of partying. I was on weekends when everyone else was partying. I was working. I was quote unquote building. And I'd not got the results. So now I had, I kind of call it like my early midlife crisis in my 20s, which is, oh **** like that stuff I'd been chasing to bring me success hasn't. And I've sacrificed all this other stuff that people have loved and I've not got to experience that. So I was about 27. I just had this little bit of, I guess you would call it a breakdown. I was in a really low place mentally and emotionally. I didn't want to go into my office. I would often go, I was going out most nights getting drunk because I went from being that 19, 20, 21 year old that didn't party, that didn't drink, to then thinking, oh, I need to catch up on what I've missed out on. And I was now single. and so it was around, around 27, I just had this complete, I guess one extreme to the other, which was all in on my business to suddenly wanting nothing to do with business and just completely lost and not knowing who I am, what success really is, what I should be doing. And I was never like, I think the worst it got is I remember thinking, I don't care if I wake up tomorrow. It was never like, I never considered taking my life or anything like that. But I remember not being bothered. I remember thinking, I want this pain to stop. I was hurting so much from the breakup and all that kind of stuff. So that then led me eventually coming through the other side, which was truly learning about self-development. And that's when I really then leaned into the online space, business mentors, self-development coaches and that kind of stuff. And that was the beginning of turning it around really. 

Yeah, which is. It's a story a lot of us can tell, isn't it? And I was listening to you there and you were saying, I can't remember exactly what age you said you were, 27, did you say? And you didn't know, we might have been younger, you'd never heard of things like podcasts and mentors. Do you know what, I was 47 or 46, 47, I'd built a seven-figure business and that stuff was all completely unknown to me. absolutely unknown to me. I didn't know it existed. I didn't know there was such a thing where you could go and get help and support. For me, it was always about just do it on your own. Just work really freaking hard and do it on your own and you'll create this business and then magically, you're going to feel great. Crazy, crazy. So I was a lot older than you when I actually discovered that sort of thing. So yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, how we live this life? Without knowing this, all the world is out there to help the supporters. Yeah. 

And I also, I know you should never comment on a woman's age, but I can't believe you're talking about 47 in the past tens. I can't believe you are very youthful looking. 

That is amazing. It's magic what you can do with a bit of a touch-up stick on your hair and all that type of stuff. 

I'll bear it in mind. 

Yeah, no, absolutely. So, for me, it was like my first midlife crisis probably was actually classed as midlife. But yeah, it's strange, isn't it, how these things change? So moving on from there, when you found this online world and mentoring and all this other stuff that we now live in and breathe every single day, what did success start to become for you at that point? Or at that point, weren't you still sure? 

So I started a podcast with my cousin at the time. It was back in 2018, we started making it. And then I think we released it in 2019 because my cousin and I were just working out in the gym together, having these deep and meaningful conversations and really questioning like, what is life all about? What is success? And we just thought, wouldn't it be great if we could ask people every week and share those lessons? At that point, there was no business concept. It was just, I'd started listening to some podcasts in America. They were really helping me. And we were just like, our conversations, if people could hear what we're saying, I think they'd be really thought provoking. And if we could bring some experts in to talk about things like mindset and how to make money and all these things, then that would be really valuable for anyone listening. So we started that back then. And that led me to get in a mentor who I now refer to today as like an Andrew Tate style like tribute act. And obviously that's like a nod of the head to my background with my other business, which was managing bands and tribute acts and so on. But the reason I call him that is he was that typical alpha bro marketer. It was all this kind of mindset of sleep when you're dead, you know, no days off, the real hustlers work on a Sunday, all that kind of stuff. And I think conversations like this, it's important that we have nuanced conversations because it's very easy to make assumptions. But the reality is there was an element of that kind of coach that I feel I needed at that time. I've always responded well to that kind of bit more like, come on, don't make excuses, let's crack on. And that's, I've always found a mentor like that to be motivating and it's been what has been useful for me. And then there was the other side, which was, as time went on, I realised not everything was what it seemed. There was a lot of smoke and mirrors. There was a lot of inflating numbers. You know, he painted the picture to me as what success I thought at the time was, which was he was really charismatic, really energetic, really motivational, in great shape, physically, you know, was fit, was strong. He had a beautiful wife, beautiful children, 8 bedroom manor house, supercars and all that kind of stuff. But then actually you realise over time, oh, okay, he's now actually he's cheating on his wife and oh, he's actually renting that and that's not real. And actually he's quite aggressive and quite manipulative, quite controlling. And so as time went on, it was really confusing again because I'd gone through all this stuff and then I was like, oh, I'm now getting myself, you know, I'm working out in the gym again. I've got a purpose again. I've got a business mentor who's helping me. And then I realized that he's not everything that I thought. And so the truth is they're not, that left me even more confused than ever. And sort of long story short, he got a lot of people online that he, I think he'd not paid or people had paid him and not got services. So then this whole like online stuff started where people were trying to out him as a scammer. And because I was what was classed as what he called his, like one of his main students, he called me. It was like guilty through association. So then I had all these people on Tatl, which is like a website where people can be anonymous and basically talk about people that have done them wrong, calling me a scammer every day. And this went on for nearly three years where people were then saying, you know, all sorts of horrible stuff. So what started out as this really positive movement for me to just personally learn about myself and share those lessons that then led to me getting qualified as a coach, having a relatively successful podcast, which then turned the other way to them people calling me a scammer and all this. So it really took me down another rd. But what I will say is all of that has been such amazing lessons to really help me understand who I am today and really know what I am and what I'm not. And figure out what I truly want to be doing. And I think sometimes you have to have that in life. Sometimes you have to have these perceptions of what you think success is. And really bloody go for it to then know what it isn't. And that's kind of what happened for me. 

Yeah. And I think it's often easier to build when you know what that is, doesn't it? Once you've got to that point and you know what it is you're actually aiming for, then it is so much easier to go and get that. And the money will come easier. And all of that type of stuff becomes much, much easier when you're doing something that one, you enjoy, two, is having the impact that you want to have. And 3, it's actually creating you what you actually want, rather than the perception, you know, the highlight reel. We look at things like you say with that, that your previous, your original coach who'd got the big house, the supercars, it's very easy to be pulled into. Somebody who has all of that stuff must have everything. They must have everything together. They must know exactly what they're doing. All of the ducks must be in a row and they must have this perfect, wonderful life because how could you ever be unhappy when you've got all of that stuff? But the reality as we often find through our own personal experiences, that isn't always the case, is it? Sometimes it is, and amazing if it is, but sometimes it isn't, isn't it? 

Yeah, and I think, as I reflect, I was 27, 28, and one thing you said there is experience, and it's one of the biggest things, A, for me, but B, that I encourage people to do is learn through experience, not just through reading a book or hearing somebody else speak about it on a podcast. I know for me, That is the biggest teacher out of everything. So there's two things that I think of in terms of experiences that I went through that were two of the biggest lessons for me. Number one was when I hit my first 10K a month in my coaching business. I remember like, that's like the goal a lot of coaches aspire for, isn't it, is 10K months. And I remember hitting it and thinking at that particular moment, it was one of the most loneliest I'd ever felt. So it's kind of like interesting how we aim for that as being, that'll be the day when it's like, woo-hoo, we've made it. And actually, I remember I was out getting some steps in and I remember thinking, my true friends that I've known for years, I don't want to tell them that I've made this because I know they won't be impressed by it or they might feel, they feel crap because they're not in a good financial place themselves. So it would feel like I'm boasting and glowing, it wouldn't feel nice. I know my mentor at the time because of the way he was, the one we were just speaking about, the way he used to work is, right, why you made this money and I'll do you, he would just try and take more money off me. every time I made more. So I didn't want to tell him. And I just remember, and I was, I didn't have a partner or anything at the time. I just remember thinking, this is a really lonely place to be, even though so many of us aspire to get here. And the second thing was, I actually did a bodybuilding competition in 2021. And growing up, I struggled a lot with my body image. And I remember thinking, if I had like that image of what you see on men's health magazines with the abs and the muscles and all that kind of thing, I was like, wow, I'll feel so confident that day. And I remember standing on that stage and I'd done very well. I'd trained very hard. And at the time I did get a Brit finalist, so I was invited to the finals and what have you. But I remember standing on that stage feeling, I feel no different. I don't feel any more like I've arrived or anything. Just because physically I'd achieved something, it didn't mean internally I felt any more than I already did before that. And it was a huge lesson. But the point I really want to make is for me personally, people tried to tell me that before. People would say, money doesn't make you happy. People would say, you know, it doesn't matter what size you are. If you're not happy internally, you'll never be happy on the external. But I had to go to those extremes. I had to achieve it for myself to truly believe that and truly understand it. And so for me, I don't think there's anything wrong in A, taking longer to achieve your goals because you maybe go through a few failures along the way. But B, if you really want to achieve something and everyone else is telling you not to, if you want to, go for it. Because this is not anyone else's life. It's your life. And if you think it's going to make you happy, go for it. Because I'd rather you find out for yourself it doesn't. than just have everybody else telling you it worked because hey, it actually might have done and you'll never know if you don't give it a try. So I've got no regrets of any of those things that I did, but it was the best way to learn those lessons truthfully. 

Yeah, I absolutely love that. And I think that's completely right, isn't it? We learn from whether we call them mistakes or whatever we want to call them, but we learn from the things that we do in life. We get our experience and the things that we do in life. And I always say exactly the same. You know, I've got no regrets for, you know, for how my previous business made me or anything that's happened. happened in life. I can't regret it. There's things I can wish hadn't happened, of course, but we can't regret it because actually that's made me the same as it's made you the person that we are today and enables us to do things differently and better because we're doing it with the knowledge and experience that burnt us, that bit us, that made us feel pretty crappy. So yeah, I absolutely love that. I think that's a great perspective and something I think people need to hear, isn't it? And I think this is one of the problems with success, isn't it? Nobody really, I say nobody, I think more people are having it now. But these conversations are not had often enough, are they? It's almost like, people want to pretend that everything is perfect in life and business. And building a business is tough. There's no pretending that it's not tough. You're going to have to work hard. You're going to have to do all of these things. But it can be fantastic and amazing alongside that. But often people mask that, don't they? And they just, you know, they I love that when we came onto this call before we came live, how are you, Matt? Well, I'm pretty crappy, really. But I'm okay. But not many people do that, do they? just say, I'm great. You know, I'm absolutely fine. Everything's wonderful. 

Yeah, and I've been teaching people and helping people build personal brands for about nearly seven years now. It's been a big part of what I've been building and what I've spoken about. And I've always said that you've got to show up as a real person. And I think a lot of that, again, came from realising my mentor at the time wasn't. And I was just like, I'm never going to put on this act of being something I'm not. But the bottom line is, when it comes to building a community online or building a following, building a business with customers that want to buy, they're not going to buy from you if they don't believe in you. And we don't believe in things if it sounds too good to be true. We are naturally going to be more sceptical and things like that. I think there's a balance to be struck. Like, you know, if you're constantly coming on to social media and building a brand and say, oh, I feel rubbish or whatever, it becomes like you're just trauma dumping on your audience and using them as a counselor. I don't think that's wise. However, I think people really respect, especially when you're in those earlier years of building your own business and you see someone else out there saying, hey, I see you, I know how tough it is, I'm actually going through a day like that myself. I think people really warm to you and they go, oh man, and it makes them feel seen. I think what happened with like the types of mentors I was around before is you would just think they were superhuman and because you're not like them, you'll never be successful. And it's just absolute crap. It's absolute rubbish. Anybody that I've ever spoken to who's genuinely successful has had to work hard, has questioned, has wanted to quit, has, you know, has gone through all those emotions. And I think it's really, really important we talk about that so we don't give a false perspective to people. And Ultimately, we don't stop people then thinking they can never do it because you can. It just takes a while and it's tough. And some days you've got to show up when you don't want to show up, but it is still possible. But you're just going to build not only necessarily a bigger audience, but a more genuine real audience and a better relationship with your audience, I think, by sharing that other side. 

Yeah, no, I completely agree. So let's fast forward a little bit to a little bit more like the now time. So now would you say that you have a completely different perspective on success? 

Yeah. I still think for most of us, money is going to make us happier generally because it, and it's really cliche, but it just gives us more choices. 

Absolutely. 

So for me, I don't have. I'm not going to now be like, oh, money doesn't make you happy or you shouldn't go for it. I think you should. And I don't think everybody wants to and that's okay too. But for me, I obviously, as I say, with my podcast, I've heard so many people talk about their definition of success. It's the final question I always ask. And it's given me a lot of thought on my definition. And it's been the same now for a few years. I've always said I'm open to keep evolving and growing and changing, but it actually hasn't changed for years. And for me, it's two words. One is peace and the second one is fulfillment. So peace means internally I have spent years constantly beating myself up or constantly putting myself under pressure or constantly not thinking I'm good enough or successful or whatever, constantly thinking my body image isn't good enough. So it's like internally my mind is always like in disarray and beating myself up. And actually learning to just truly be at peace with who you are, where you are on your journey, have gratitude for what you have, and genuinely be happy in your own skin. That for me is success. And the second-half is fulfillment. And what fulfillment means to me is it's about doing things that are genuinely really meaningful and impactful in a way that lights you up and makes you feel good about it. It doesn't mean you'll feel happy all the time. There'll be days that are blooming hard. And there'll be days where you think, bloody hell, I'm exhausted. But if you can go out of bed going, but it's fulfilling work, it's meaningful work. That for me means that's a successful life to lead. So now, when I'm making decisions, whether that be goals in my business or who I'm going to work with or personal goals, they're not predicated on looking left to right at what everybody else is doing and competing or thinking, well, they've made X amount of million, so we need to make X amount of million. For me, my decisions all come from peace and fulfillment. So if I'm going to go for a financial goal, what's that journey look like? Is it a fulfilling journey? Is it a meaningful journey? And can I pursue, in that pursuit, sorry, can I feel at peace internally or is it all going to be disarray and conflict? And that is just a really nice guide for me now. And it means you just lose all the external pressure, because I'm now really proud to say I'm at a place in my life like I've never been before, where I genuinely don't feel I have to prove anything to anyone. I really care about my work, I care about my clients, I care about my audience, and I care about delivering to them, but that's very different. And I'm really proud as well to, and I guess grateful to have had some friends that are making way more money than me, that are making millions that have also been like, wow, this is, this next stage looks like this. Because it's enabled me, and again, why conversations like this are important, it's enabled me to not go for goals that I think are going to bring me happiness by being able to see, I can just see it for what it is, how it's that kind of trap of, You get to one result and then you think, but now maybe I need to do that or maybe I need to do that. And they're no longer chasing it from a place of, because this is fulfilling, they're chasing it maybe from a place of, well, I'll only feel good enough when I arrive there because that's what that person's doing or I'm not, I'm no longer relevant unless I'm competing with that person. And I just truthfully do not see goals like that anymore in any way, shape or form. For me, it's about what's going to make me feel good at peace and fulfilled. 

Absolutely love that. And I think that's an important message, isn't it? It's not what it looks like, it's what it feels like. And that's what I that's what I hear within what you've just said there. It's got to feel right for you the same as it has to feel right for your clients to come and invest in you and do all of that type of stuff. I absolutely love that. So let's close this down with a moving forward. beyond today, as you move into the future. Obviously, you've just told us that it's got to come from a place of peace and fulfilment. But would you consider yourself where you want to be in terms of success? I don't mean financially at all. That's a totally different thing how I'm looking at this here. And we're all out to earn more money and do that sort of thing. But would you say you're where you see yourself moving into the future in terms of having a real handle on success for yourself? You've sort of answered this, but... 

Yeah, 100%. I feel so flipping blessed and lucky and grateful more than I ever have. And I have done for about 12 months now. Like it's been a really good, don't get me wrong, it's been hard and it's been a lot of work at times, but genuinely feel great. And the future for me now is, because I'm constantly learning, I'm evaluating, I'm looking at what's working, why, what's not, why, how can we improve what we're doing? The future for me is about simplicity. So there's a phrase that I say all the time in business, which is simplicity scales, complexity fails. And there's another phrase that I say, which is do less, but do less better. I think quite often with the entrepreneurial mind, we get really busy with all these great ideas and we know we could do them all really, really well. But what happens is we end up doing loads of things good or average instead of one or two things outstanding. So for me, it's about simplicity. It's about just because I can do stuff doesn't mean I should. And we've got, at the time of recording, we are just short of five weeks from our biggest event ever, Business Maths to be live in Leeds, which has been an enormous undertaking. It's going to be incredible. It's our first, so it's our 6th event, but it's the first one that's two days. Prior to that, it's always been like a one day event. And it's also like some of our biggest speakers. We've got people like Daniel Priestley that's going to be there, Scott Thomas, Lisa Johnson, some really great, amazing speakers. And it's a bigger venue. It's going to be just over 400 people there. Now, as you can imagine, and any event organisers will understand, that is a lot of work. And I'm so excited for the two days where the rewards will come and we'll get to see hundreds of people just having the most incredible experience. And at the same time, I'm not going to do any more events after that. will be our final one. And again, if I was being led by ego or comparison or expectation, I might be like, we've got to go bigger and better and we've got to keep growing. And no, I don't actually. I'm going to put my heart and soul into this being the best event of the year. And then after that, I'm not going to do events anymore. And that's okay. Because The time, the energy, the risk, the finances that it takes for that event, we could put that into things where there's much easier ways to make income and impact that are much easier and much more peaceful and feel more aligned with where I'm at right now. It's not to say in a few years time we might do events again, you know, we might. But right now I'm just really self-aware to go, I don't want to do another right now. There's other things we can do. So for me, beyond in five weeks time when this event's going to happen, my aim is to have the best event ever. And then our main focus is on growing our community success school, which is a low ticket, you know, low barrier to entry membership. At the moment, we've got nearly 350 paying people in that community. It's one of the most beautiful, incredible places, just full of Like our motto for years has always been, we want to attract people who are good people that are doing great, cool stuff and achieving great stuff. But they're not *********. Like they're good people. And we've actually got that. Like, and it's lovely. And we've got such a range of people in there from people who just started out in business to people who are doing multi-millions and everything in between. And such a diverse range of industries. You know, you've got like financial experts, AI experts, tech experts, marketing experts. So as a community, there's so much in there, irrespective of what I have to say, or guest experts that we bring in, just from the community, it's so valuable. And I just see the potential with that. So for me, it's going to be simplicity scales. It's going to be going all in on that membership, making it the best blooming community out there. And then we'll see beyond that. We shall see if we bring events back. But yeah, that's what we're looking at the moment. 

Amazing. And that goes right back to that just because you can, it doesn't mean you should phrase, doesn't it? You know, you could put on another event, but it doesn't mean that it's the right thing for you to do or for your business to do. So I absolutely love that. And simplicity is right at the core of everything that I do too. So that is music to my ears. Absolute music to my ears. OK, thank you so much for joining me. I've absolutely loved this conversation. I'm going to share in the show notes all. Matt's link so you can go and follow in him. Go and have a look at the event. Go and have a look at his community. What he is building is phenomenal. So thank you, Matt. 

Thank you so much, Emma. 

My pleasure. And I will see you all next time.