Code Compliance with Compassion: Ceci Muela on Leading with Heart

Takis Talk – Episode with Ceci Muela
In this episode of Takis Talk, host Greg Diktakis sits down with Ceci Muela, Interim Deputy Director and Chief Building Official for the City of Oakland, to explore the balance between leadership, community service, and resilience.

Ceci shares her journey from single mom to respected leader, drawing inspiration from The Alchemist and Queen Elizabeth I. Together, Greg and Ceci dive into the human side of code enforcement, the art vs. graffiti debate, and the challenges of hoarding, street vending, and neighborhood preservation. Beyond her role in city leadership, Ceci opens up about her love of CrossFit, painting, travel, and the unique bond she shares with her 15-year-old daughter.

This thoughtful, inspiring, and often lighthearted conversation reveals how Ceci blends strength, compassion, and mentorship to empower both her teams and her community—while reminding us all to not get stuck in the suck.

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Chapters

• 0:04 Meet CeCe Muella
• 8:42 Finding Inspiration in Books
• 17:28 Graffiti, Murals, and Urban Art
• 23:02 Compassionate Approach to Hoarding Cases
• 38:25 Building Inspection and Career Journey
• 48:44 Mind, Mouth, and Harmony Leadership
• 56:14 Farewell and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Greg 0:04

Welcome to TACS Talk. My name is Greg Dutakis. I'm the host and creator of the show. Today, we're going to dive into the heart of community leadership and resilience. Our guest is CeCe Muella, interim Deputy Director and Chief Building Official for the City of Oakland. From navigating the challenges of building safety and code enforcement to empowering teams through training, mentorship and her work with Monarch Consulting, cece brings a wealth of experience and wisdom. In this conversation, we talk about everything from graffiti and murals to the human side of enforcement, finding a balance in leadership and the lessons she's drawn from books like the Alchemist and the Life of Queen Elizabeth I. Additionally, we're going to examine the personal side of Cece her incredible tolerance for disappointment. She's a Raider fan I gave up years ago. She's a cool mom that takes trips with her 15-year-old and, lastly, a weird airport bookstore addiction. Sit back, buckle up and let's get into it. Good morning, cece. Thanks for being on the podcast. How are you doing this morning?

Ceci 1:06

I'm doing great, Greg. Thank you so much for having me.

Greg 1:09

Hey, my pleasure Raiders playing today.

Ceci 1:13

They sure are. I've been watching closely because I'm watching the new rookie, chanty, you know. So I think he brings a lot of hope and you know we'll see what he can do in the next four years.

Greg 1:26

I think he brings a lot of hope and you know we'll see what he can do in the next four years. I was, you know I was a Raider fan. I jumped ship and every time I see a Raider fan or Raider shirt, I always chuckle because you guys just love punishment, yes, but it's so much fun though, so I want to get in a little, get to know you round. So currently you are what is your exact title with Oakland?

Greg 1:46

I am currently the interim deputy director and chief building official. So under your purview you have building and code enforcement or just building.

Ceci 1:52

Oh my goodness. So yeah, all of buildings, our counter staff, our plan reviewers, field inspectors, as well as code enforcement and our administrative support unit. Wow, that's a lot. Quite a bit.

Greg 2:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Obbies, what do you like to do when you're not?

Ceci 2:07

doing that. Well, there's a few things. Some may not know this about me, but I used to be an avid CrossFitter and so I'm starting to get back into that. I really just find it as a release. So I love doing that, Love reading, Reading is a go-to for me. In fact I have this rule anytime I'm traveling anywhere. As silly as it may sound, and my husband may not agree half the time, but I like to buy books right at the airport and he says, do you need another book? And I say, well, I need it for the plane. He's like, oh my goodness. So I love to read.

Greg 2:40

So you said you're an avid reader. Favorite reads what do you like to read?

Ceci 2:45

So you said you're an avid reader. Favorite reads what do you like to read? Yes, so I like a combination of personal growth and development and then just fun reads. I will tell you that one of my favorite books is the Alchemist, and another one of my favorites is just anything that has to do with Queen Elizabeth I, and they've been kind of a guiding light for me throughout my entire personal and professional journey.

Ceci 3:09

I will say that Queen Elizabeth I you know, when I came across you know the history component of it throughout a college class started really diving into you know her background, what she brought to the table, so much that she did for England. She was actually one of the longest reigning monarchs of the House of Tudor in England, reigning about 44 years or so Steadfast and innovative and very laser-focused, and so you know, she was always someone that I found as a mentor, you know, even to today, even though she isn't around. I just kind of really followed her because I thought, gosh, you know, she's so, so powerful in the sense that she understands resilience and strength and through that resilience and strength that she really displayed, it really helped with getting out of the mindset of some of the societal stereotypes that we see and how we face adversity when we do face adversity. So I always say anybody that's looking for a great read, look her up. She's super inspirational, she's great. There is a quote by her that I've guided myself by through my entire journey, and it's something to the effect of though the sex to which I belong is considered weak, you will nevertheless find me a rock that bends to no wind. So you know again that you can apply to anything right, and I'll just kind of give you a quick background.

Ceci 4:41

Greg, I was a very young mom, and a single mom at that, and one of my challenges was always being told gosh, you know, your kids are going to grow up and they're not going to really go to school, they're not going to have a career, they're probably going to be young parents end up in gangs or jail or whatever right, and I took that to heart. I mean, I took it to heart because I've always been one that was very much into school and studying. I had a 4.0. As a young kid. I was probably one that one would consider a nerd, because I just really loved to learn, and so, as a young mom, I just felt so offended and it was so magnetized that I was like, no, you're wrong, I'm going to show you you're wrong. And so when I came across Queen Elizabeth, I thought, yes, yes, everything about her, yes, so much yesterday, the resilience, the strength, the you know, unbreakable core, remaining firm and unyielding to your purpose, is been something that I've been so just you know, clinging on to her story as far as like her admiration, her serving as a mentor for me.

Ceci 5:48

And then the other one, you know, the Alchemist, a friend of mine. Actually, her and I went to a trip in New York. We used to get together a couple of times every few years because we grew up together. But she moved to Texas and I stayed here in California, and so she said you know, friend, read this book, I'm going to give it to you. So she gave me the book the Alchemist and it was so funny because my brother had read it and I always wanted to read it, but I just never really got around to reading that specific book. So I read it on the plane in one sitting, on my way back from Dallas, and I thought, wow, this is great, this is really great. So I don't know if you've had a chance to read that book, the Alchemist, but I'll tell you that it's similar to Queen Elizabeth's story, but with a different approach.

Ceci 6:29

The Alchemist really, really focuses on you, know your journey, and really speaks to. Your journey and my journey are different, and our journey to achieving our goals, our dreams, are rarely straightforward, right, they're rarely linear. They're all over the freaking map. It's never going to be so easy, but the patience that we need, the perseverance you know, being able to look at the setbacks not so much as a negative but focusing them on how we're going to come back, was one of the things that I was like gosh, yeah, this is great. Was one of the things that I was like gosh, yeah, this is great. If I am able to apply this to my life, then I'm not going to get stuck on the suck Meaning when something gets sucky, I'm not going to be like, oh, this sucks, I give up. I'm going to be like, shoot, yeah, that sucked, that stung, but you know what? Whatever, let's dust ourselves off, let's keep going. So it really was a concept of being wise in the things that we do, finding the guidance and the motivation along the way and really clinging to those that are supportive right in our circles.

Ceci 7:32

When you and I were young, greg, in high school, I mean we probably had lots of friends, right, and that was the thing in high school. You got to be in the circle, you got to have all the friends. As an adult, you look at that different and you're like gosh, no, if I have two, even three solid friends, even one, that's all I need, right, somebody that's going to really support me, that's going to show up, that's going to tell me to my face no, no, you're doing that wrong, knock it off. But really serving you, right, I can't say enough. Going back to the Alchemist, how your circle also really plays into how you move in this life and into your life's path. So those are two books that I just I really I really enjoyed very much amongst other books that I read, but those are two that really really stick out for me. There's those stories, yeah.

Finding Inspiration in Books

Greg 8:25

Thank you for making me feel really dumb right now, because my extent of reading is going to be a new installation manual for a PV system or something. We'll travel somewhere and I'll compare accessibility or ADA codes. And yeah, I'm just a mechanic that way I can't get into that warm fuzzy stuff. And I agree with you with what you said about the friend right. If you have one or two friends that you can call at two o'clock in the morning, drive me to the border, no questions asked. You're a rich person.

Ceci 8:52

Exactly, Exactly. Hard to find, but when you do, you hang on to them for dear life for sure.

Greg 8:59

Exactly.

Ceci 9:01

I love to paint. I used to do a lot of acrylics way back when and I just recently started getting back into it, so yeah, a little bit of everything.

Greg 9:10

So that art thing, we're going to get into that in just a minute. Recent trips I think you went East Coast recently, right?

Ceci 9:15

I did. I went to New York, so I've been there. Last year I actually had a great teaching engagement in Chester, pennsylvania, and so I, you know I always like to map out what's close to me and I thought, shoot, you know New York's close enough. So I took my daughter just last month to New York and we just it's such a blast. I mean we were walking fools, walking everywhere, and I love the fact that she loves spending time with me because she's 15 years old, you know. And so for me I'm like, hey, I'm still cool enough, my 15-year-old wants to hang out with me.

Greg 9:49

So that was a blast. That's the litmus test, right. You're still a cool cat when a 15-year-old wants to hang out with you.

Ceci 9:54

That's exactly it.

Greg 9:56

New York. I think it's still our biggest market, did you see?

Ceci 10:02

anything there that surprised you? You know, yes, you know, for as much as New York has going on, I did find a lot of pleasantries. You know people just kind of just jiving, just doing their thing, just getting along. Construction's underway. You know it's crowded, crowded streets. I happened to land on a day where they were having outdoor markets in Little Italy and Chinatown and down in Soho and it was just I mean me personally, I tend to get claustrophobic when there's a lot going on, but I actually enjoyed myself. The street art is huge. I've been looking closely at murals versus graffiti and how those affect a community, and so it was nice to see how they had a fun play in murals to deter graffiti. So it was cool.

Greg 10:48

Okay, so I'm going to take this opportunity. Graffiti and murals so graffiti for us in Livermore a big deal. We passed an ordinance not too long ago seven days to abate and it's one of those things where property owners always give us pushback right, I'm the victim, but you're punishing the victim. So how do you feel about that? How do you treat that in Oakland?

Ceci 11:09

Yes, so you know I am empathetic and sympathetic when it comes to graffiti.

Ceci 11:14

It is a challenging thing, as you know, greg, for a city the size of Oakland.

Ceci 11:18

You know there's a lot happening and what's true is, yes, we do have a certain level of graffiti plaguing our streets. But while I understand that we have to address it, which we are, we're addressing it, we have taken the approach of working with property owners to allow them time to address it, and we're currently underway working with multi-agency or other departments, if you will, to do a multi-agency approach to see how we can tackle graffiti at a multifaceted approach. I do empathize with the property owner, business owner that's trying to take care of it, you know, and then they get dinged again, and so I understand that aspect of it. So with my code unit, we've just been, you know, pretty mindful, going out, assessing, looking at the situation as a whole. The mural programs, again, that was one thing where I was looking at that and thought, you know, art's beautiful and everybody loves art, right, it's just how we present our art that matters. And so I'm just hopeful as to what comes out of our working group right now to be able to address that.

Greg 12:16

One day. I'm doing so. Our downtown is a big deal, that's our jewel kind of a thing. Well, we have two of them. The outlets are the other one. So I'm driving downtown I see this graffiti at the top. It's on the back of a restaurant. It's over the top there's a canopy structure, a roof on the loading area, and there's this. It's graffiti, but I'm looking at it and I'm thinking, wow, this is beautiful art. A lot of times, graffiti is a gang tag, something vulgar, but this was actually really pretty and I'm thinking about so. I was formerly a contractor, so I'm thinking about the logistics of it all. How did you get up there? What was the planning, how did you materials and so forth? And I'm thinking miscreant or just an absolute artist and just a go-getter? And I'm wondering what this individual does for a daily, because what they did took a lot of effort, a lot of creativity. So sometimes it's hard to figure out. Is this ugly or is this not? Is it pretty?

Ceci 13:09

Right, right, no, I you know what.

Ceci 13:10

I completely agree. I think that it is quite impressive in the sense that you're almost in awe as to holy cow. That building is a high rise. How did you get to the top, how did you get to the midpoint of that building? You know, how were you? What was your thought process going into? Hey, I'm going to put a piece of art here.

Ceci 13:32

Right, and I agree with you, there's a fine line between what's tasteful and what is vulgar or isn't. You know, isn't tasteful. I'll tell you that when I drive home, I always have to pass kind of that Emeraldville area and there used to be a spot near that Emeraldville Ikea area where, a very long time ago, I actually used to go and take salsa lessons, if you can believe that. And so next to that building there's a high rise and I see that building and at one point there was no graffiti on it and just as a recent, I'm like wow. I always tell you know my husband, because he's in law enforcement I said I feel like we have a city of of spider-men, spideys.

Ceci 14:14

Right, because they get up there, they do their thing and, yes, we want to tackle the ones that obviously are our nuisance. But I, I think to myself, you know, we could reinvigorate, re-look at what is art, what is tasteful, the placement thereof, how it affects that space in general. I think it gives us another look as to how we tackle it for sure. But yes, I agree with you, it's almost like a shocker right To some extent, where you're like how did that happen so high up, especially for me? You know, I do heights, but I have a limit For me. I think to myself are they worried? Are they scared? Oh, my goodness, you know all those things that come to mind, yeah.

Greg 14:59

Yeah, I see the stuff that's on the side of an overpass, and it's exactly what you said, spider stuff that's on the side of an overpass, and it's exactly what you said. Spider-man, what did you have? Rigging harnesses, or are you just?

Ceci 15:07

daredevils.

Greg 15:07

Was it really that important to put that tag there?

Ceci 15:10

Right right.

Greg 15:11

But I think maybe that's part of the street cred. I guess, if you will, if you could just paint a wall walking down the street, that's one thing. But if you can put it in an impossible position or situation, I get it. I get it. So I think it was about a year ago. We went to Greece and Italy and there's graffiti everywhere in Europe except the national monuments, and they treat it a little bit differently. And we're in Greece and I see graffiti and it's in English and it's so pervasive, it's everywhere and nobody seems to mind and I don't get it. And recently this year, frank Mufarish, our CBO, went to Spain and Italy. So he sends me a picture of a graffiti store in Spain and so I think, oh, you can go in and buy graffiti art or something he's like. No, no, you can go buy markers and spray paint so you can paint graffiti. Wow. So what an entirely different way to look at it, right?

Ceci 16:05

Yeah, yeah, no, that is, that is. I would have never thought that, you know, because when you think of Italy, you think of all the culture, right, the art, the culture. You don't necessarily think graffiti. So the fact that you can just kind of walk in there and just kind of, you know, pick your tools of the trade and go do your thing, it's kind of like wow, that's mind blowing, yeah.

Greg 16:27

Different perspective you mentioned murals. You mentioned murals. Do you folks have some sort of a program in place to commission murals?

Graffiti, Murals, and Urban Art

Ceci 16:36

You know, typically right now the way murals have worked are the property owner works for the artist right. We don't necessarily, that I know of right now, have something that's active, that's been active for some time. So I've been kind of looking at other neighboring jurisdictions to see what they have in place. We do have a department that focuses on, you know, assistance with artwork, with graffiti abatement if you will, but they're very, they're very limited as to their resources, although they do a fantastic job. So that is one of the things that we're definitely looking at is, you know, what aspect of a mural right do we need to bring into the city of Oakland? How can we support that? Would that be something that we want to do? You know, I know that in San Francisco, a colleague of mine had mentioned that they have established a mural program that was super effective with them. So that's again that's one thing to look for. So it's in the works.

Greg 17:30

Okay, I'd like to know how that works out. Yeah, graffiti. So graffiti is one that we've been tackling for a while. It seems that we had a flare up. We were pretty good at enforcement and abatement. Then for a little while we had issues with street vending. Has that been a problem for you folks?

Ceci 17:47

You know it has, although my particular unit is actually not the enforcing authority. So, the way that we're set up in Oakland, we have a special activities unit and they tackle the street vending, they tackle, you know, any other specialized enforcement that falls under that purview of kind of like after hours conditions and situations. So we we've been a bit removed now, you know, when we have like micro enterprise type situations, things that are working or operating outside of private residents, and, yeah, we, we go in there and check it out, although I will tell you that there was a time where we had folks that were, you know know, cooking right outside their front yard, having folks come in, you know, join the garage driveway area, and for the most part they were pretty receptive as to what we were asking them to do. You know, to be honest, greg, I feel like street vending and graffiti. They're kind of toe-to-toe in the sense that there's so much behind it, right, street vending, I think, education and creating a pathway by which we could legalize to some extent, while still keeping in mind those brick and mortar operations, businesses, those that are out there doing the thing to stay alive.

Ceci 19:01

I think there's an opportunity for both and consideration of both. I will tell you that when I was at the city of Santa Rosa, they established a food vending if you will, it's more like a mobile food truck type location. They would call it, or they called it El Mitote, and so you know they would have, you know, food trucks join and they'd go out there, they'd have music and they kind of made it a thing to support the local community but also to partner with them as to okay, how do we move this forward? And we do. This is an opportunity for now, where they were kind of activating a vacant property at the same time. So it was kind of a multifaceted approach which I thought was pretty strategic right, you don't ever want vacant property to sit there and then become a nuisance.

Ceci 19:46

So they activated that space, brought in the mobile food vendors for an opportunity, were able to give them a space where they could, you know, enjoy, spend time, run their business but also really start considering as to you know what happens next. Where do they go from here? How do they become legal as far as operations goes? So you know, and I've seen that quite a bit, even in San Francisco, when I go to a Giants game, you see some of these lots that have been converted into spaces or are being used as outdoor eateries, if you will, with mobile food vendors. So it's been interesting to see. I thought it was great the name Hermitote, because some people will translate that as the area where you come and have friendly gossip, right? Not gossip, negative gossip, but like hey, let's get together and chat, let's have some tea, let's discuss life, right. So it was a fun play at the word as well as a fun use of the space for a limited term.

Greg 20:43

Very playful, so you said that was Santa Rosa.

Ceci 20:45

That was Santa Rosa, yeah.

Greg 20:47

I'd have to reach out to them. We had a street vending issue flare up for a while and I think you kind of touched on it. So we're kind of looking at this as so some people say victimless crime, right, they're not selling drugs, they're not breaking into things, they're just making food and most of the people that you asked that had some said it was really delicious and at one point some people are even taking pictures and some of our firefighters were even in line. So it made it kind of tough to go out and enforce. So years ago I met this young man who was a tradesman when I was an inspector at Alameda County and I was impressed with his work as customer service. I encouraged him to become a contractor. He did. He's become very successful.

Greg 21:26

He and his wife opened a restaurant in Livermore and he came in one day and was really upset over this taco vendor. It wasn't really a truck because his claim was that when they would set up shop in the evenings that he would lose about 25% of his business. And he's saying well, here I am, I have a brick and mortar, I have employees, I have workman's comp, I pay a city tax, I have health fire in here and this guy is circumventing all of those and he's taking business away from it. So it's a tough one because there's a demand and I almost see like it's not a terrible crime, but then you are having an impact on someone like it's not a terrible crime, but then you are having an impact on someone, right, right?

Ceci 22:11

No, I agree. I agree, yes, and that's why I say it's. I agree that it's challenging. It gives you some thought, right, it gives you pause as to really looking at the situation through a larger lens and trying to come up with a way where we support larger lens, and trying to come up with a way where we support entrepreneurship but we also support those that you know come in and do the things the right way from the get-go. I think there is something to be said about that. So I definitely am empathetic to the frustrations that come from that, for sure, as you mentioned.

Greg 22:40

You're going to switch gears. Well, I have one last question, something that we run into that is really a problem and I'm wondering how you handle it when we have issues with people that may have cognitive issues, hoarding, things like that. We have one right now, maybe a couple that may be looking at receivership. Have you had any of those? How do you deal with those?

Ceci 23:02

Yes, I have, in fact, greg. If I can just kind of expand a little bit on the topic, hoarding is. It's a toughie, it really is, and I will tell you that when you first come into code enforcement, that is one area that isn't necessarily relayed to the code officer that's coming in or the inspector that's coming in right. The code officer that's coming in or the inspector that's coming in right, it's not something that is like, hey, you know, these are all the things you're going to enforce, and plus this, it's almost one of those things that comes up as you go. So I'll tell you that when I started my career many years ago in code enforcement, I had no idea what hoarding was, and when I came across a couple of cases, I felt like I had one and the next thing, you know, I had another, and next thing, you know, I ended up with like five and I was like, shoot, you know how do I tackle these? And so I'm very much curious by nature and a big book nerd, and so I started doing a lot of research, taking a lot of notes, doing some on-demand training on my own time, really fine tuning my craft, so that I understood what the best approach was to tackle hoarding. So, that being said, when I started addressing some of these cases, one of the biggest things for me was to first understand that hoarding is under a protected class right Since 2013,. They've been protected under ADA. And, that being said, there's the other component of perhaps you know OCD mental health, the emotional support that comes in there, the emotional anxiety that comes with it. And I think it's fair to say that when we're approaching these hoarding cases, you really have to look at it very closely, understand what's before you understand what folks are telling you.

Ceci 24:45

One of the biggest things, greg, that I tell my team is you know, in the first five minutes or so of the conversation you're having with anybody anybody, even you and me right, the person that you're talking to will tell you something super important, crucial about their life, and you'll only catch it if you're paying attention. And so, when I would tackle these hoarding cases, I would listen intently to see what the property owner or the tenant occupant was telling me and I would grasp on that. For example, I had a case of a mom who had nine children and from the outside, you could see that her house was brand new, newer development. You would never know what was happening behind closed doors. When I first met her, she was very shy. She would hold her hands very close to her chest or very close to her body, all gestures that I recognized as feeling a little nervous, embarrassed, anxious, you know. So I took that into account Walking in. In those first few minutes of our conversation she said oh, you know, I'm on the PTA, you know my kids are in school. There are 4.0 students. I have one in UCLA starting to be a doctor, you know, the other one's in Cal Poly, I mean, and she was just super proud. So I knew right off the bat okay, those are important things for me to know.

Ceci 25:58

So as we started working the cases, you know you have to really look at resources. What's out there? What can we provide? Is there anything locally organizations, church groups, county services, city services, what is it that we can provide? Folks to assist them?

Ceci 26:13

And truly, greg, I say that because sometimes when we look at these cases, we're like, yeah, but you know they got to clean it up, well, okay, so we know that. But they also know that to some extent, right, and if we, as the officer, are showing up to a property, that moment that you look at this case, it becomes an overwhelming factor for the code officer, right, because we're like there's so much going on. Oh, my goodness, where do I begin? How do I give the directive and what do I have them tackle first? And so, just like we feel an overwhelming sense of anxiety. Can you imagine how that person feels when you tell them you have to clean this up? It's exactly the same, because they're feeling like shoot, I got to take care of this.

Ceci 26:57

But where do I begin? Because look at where I am today, right, so I started doing baby steps with some of my cases. So I take, you know, little umbrella, sticks or whatever I can find on the property and I'd say, can I pick this up? And they'd be like, yeah, sure, and I'd let them know this one in particular. I would tell this one gentleman hey, you know, from here to here, let's start working on this, let's start going through, let's start relocating or maybe removing things that you're not using. Right, we have to be very particular as to the language that we use, right, because if we say it's all trash and debris, you're not going to need it, it's ruined. You know why are you doing this? Then they translate that as wow, this is my stuff, but how come you don't have respect for my stuff, right?

Ceci 27:44

We got to remember that they look at it different than we do. They have an emotional attachment to these things because they play an important piece or piece of a puzzle in their life. So, for example, I had this one guy bless his heart, larry. He was a veteran. And when I went to his property he said I'm a veteran, I serve this country, you're here and enjoying your freedoms because of me. And rather than say, well, yeah, I understand that, but you have to comply. So I said and I thank you for your service. Thank you very much, you are correct. I get to enjoy my freedom because of your service, thank you. I appreciate that. I wanted him to know that. I acknowledged that. I wanted him to know that I listened and I heard him. And then that gave me an opportunity to reframe my conversation with him and to kind of get him to a point where I could say all right, then let's do this together, let's figure out how we can move this forward. And I'm happy to say that out of all my cases, I was able to successful compliance.

Ceci 28:39

But it took time, and it took time handholding. I will say, though, that I that I had one person tell me in upper management many years ago we're not here to hand-hold anybody, and I had a big problem with that because it's challenging, and it's not that I was wanting to be insubordinate, greg, don't get me wrong. I will always follow the lead of my boss, but I had to let my boss at the time know, hey, listen. But I had to let my boss at the time know, hey, listen, they are human. We cannot lose the human element in our cases.

Ceci 29:10

We cannot look at people like they're just simply violators. We have to really look at what they're going through, what they're experiencing in life, because we don't know right, we don't know. We're just showing up. They know their life better than we do. We're just showing up to address an issue that somebody called in about, and we have to be strategic, mindful, thoughtful. We have to be able to listen intently and then provide a pathway to compliance, not simply say, hey, this is the ordinance, you got to follow it. You know too bad, so sad. I've never been a believer that code enforcement is done that way, and so I got a rule of thumb for all of my team members that I've ever onboarded was we never strip anybody of their dignity. Never, ever onboarded was we never strip anybody of their dignity Never.

Greg 29:47

That is the one hard and fast rule, you know, because everybody's human and everybody deserves a chance for an opportunity to make things right. I agree with everything you said and sometimes you know you don't get. I've had people come we'll call them reporting parties come in and point a finger at me because I manage the neighborhood preservation team and it's why haven't you done this and why haven't you done that? And in a lot of instances we do have ordinances, we do have a playbook and we could go legal and we could serve and we can bring people to court and put in liens and receiverships and so forth, and that's a very time-consuming process and it becomes combative between everyone. Right, and sometimes what you said, going in small little increments, you can get somewhere, but then you have these instances. So we do.

Greg 30:31

You mentioned a veteran.

Greg 30:32

We have a veteran and we have a situation when we need to clean up on a property and we've been, you know, very, very easy going with this gent we got some help with I believe the organization is Veterans of Foreign Wars and one of the members is one of our own police officers and they put together a bunch of vets.

Greg 30:50

They showed up with a dozen pickup trucks, they were going to do all this stuff and he has a lot of things outside. He even has things that he's ordered from Amazon and online that are still in boxes, and so they had coordinated this thing and they were going to do this cleanup. And then when everybody shows up that day, he sends everybody away because he doesn't want to part with any of this stuff, and so it becomes very difficult, because this has been ongoing for over a year. He got all these fellow veterans to commit their time, their resources, their everything to come help him, and then he just shooed them away. So it's difficult to determine what are next steps with him, because we're really kind of at a point where I think all the volunteering and everything else just isn't working.

Ceci 31:32

Right, right, no, it is frustrating. It's frustrating in the sense that for you, the code officer, the code manager, right, those that are leading this case you think to yourself gosh, you know, I've gone above and beyond, I've done all the things. You know I'm hitting the wall. What do I do from here? I think people shut down, I think they do, I think they're all in, and then they get to a point where they're like no, I can't do it. They start kind of having a panic attack, if you will. But it is disheartening because you get all the players and all the pieces together to try to get this done. So, going back to Larry, that's how he was initially right In the front yard, he had all these beautiful plants and it looked like a jungle. But at least and I would always teach him, larry, you have a green thumb, I don't you do. This is great, kudos to you. We'd have a moment of just kind of razzing back and forth where it was comfortable and I was trying to gain his trust. But I will tell you that, going into the inside of his house because we started on the exterior, I didn't want to overburden him with we're doing the whole thing. So I said let's start on the outside and then we'll go into the inside. Oh gosh, when we started to go into the inside, he was just fighting us tooth and nail. And so I would tell the staff you know the environmental cleanup crew let's just work. You know baby steps, and that's frustrating because they're on a schedule too right, so they can't necessarily say okay, cece, well, whenever you're ready, we're ready. You know, they can't just change their whole schedule around to help us either. They're time and resources, so we have to be mindful of that too. But yeah, it took a minute. It took some yes, some no. I need this With him.

Ceci 33:12

He had a family at one point that he lost while he was overseas and he lost them because, you know, wife decided it's time to go. I can't live this life. So he was very hurt and he kept kind of living in that space. Oh, I can't live this life. So he was very hurt and he kept kind of living in that space. So all the stuff, all the bikes that he had in his rear yard, he would say, oh, those are for my kids, I'm going to teach them how to ride bikes. And it broke my heart because he's 70 years old. His kids were grown, they were in their 30s, but in his mind they were still little guys. Right, he was still going to do this thing with them.

Ceci 33:42

So when I was saying, you learn a lot about a person when you first talk to them in those first five to 10 minutes, that was one thing that he brought up. And so I would say, wouldn't it be nice to bring your kids and have a barbecue? You have such a great deck. Oh, my goodness, you have this tree. It'd be so great if we can just clean up some space, move some things around. What do you think? Could you see it, could you picture it? And he'd be like, oh, yeah, yeah, no, that'd be great, that'd be great. But again, it's like it's the constant back and forth. I found, yeah, you're right, greg, it's the constant. Yes, I want to do it. No, I changed my mind. I'm anxious. This is my stuff, it's memories, it's things that I have an emotional attachment with. So it's yeah, it is challenging, it's difficult, for sure.

Greg 34:22

What a great motivator to get him to change. I wanted to touch on two things that you said. When you said environmental cleanup crew, do you have your own folks in-house that do these things?

Ceci 34:32

No. So what we did is we would again going back to knowing our craft. Once I would get a hold of somebody that they would retain the property owner would retain then I would talk to them at length and let them know who we were. They would let us know what they did and I would start to build kind of a list of folks that property owners could reach out to and they could choose right. They can make that decision, because we never recommend it, we never recommend contractors, but these were folks that we ended up building a relationship with because we had so many of these cases that were popping up that you know property owners would decide. Many of these cases that were popping up that you know property owners would decide they'd get like a list of environmental crews that they would want to call and choose from, based on pricing or availability, and we would go from there.

Greg 35:14

Wow, okay, that's a good resource. I'm going to have to get that list from you. I have another question for you, so a couple of these. That we've gone into the home. There was so much debris and the home was in such disrepair that we've had to red tag. And that's very difficult for us because once you red tag, you're displacing people. Then what are you doing? Have you had to do that? How did you negotiate that?

Ceci 35:33

I have. I have, I had another case elderly woman. She was disabled, in a wheelchair, living in a modular home. And you know, greg, I have to say this because I think it's important for everybody to know this. You said something super important we don't like to displace, and that's so true. I think sometimes code enforcement units are misperceived, right? People think that, oh gosh, you know they're going to vacate and I have to move and I just, I just really it's important for me to say that that's never our goal. That is absolutely never our goal. We always want to keep people in their homes. However, if those spaces are not safe, then we have to make the hard decision to. You know, vacate a property while we gain compliance, and that's always the idea, right Is? You know we're going to vacate for now while we get things squared up, and then, once things are repaired and ready to go, you can go back in.

Ceci 36:33

So in this case it was difficult. I knew we had to remove her. She couldn't get around. All of her egress was blocked. She was the only one living by herself in a back room. She unfortunately had a caretaker that also had another job and couldn't be there all day. So when I came across this property and was able to make contact with her, she told me you know I'm scared. Speak to you Apparently. You've been out here. And I said, yes, I'm working the case. They told me what was going on. They had to get her out of the house. She was afraid. She saw somebody come on property. She didn't know who it was.

Ceci 37:14

I ended up posting it to vacate. I let her know what I was going to do. But prior to doing that, I did call APS or the Adult Protective Services Unit and I let them know hey, I need some help here. I'm trying to work on getting her some resources. I tried to get some other local organizations to help and I lucked out in that.

Ceci 37:33

The APS worker said you know what? We do have funding. It's limited. We can't necessarily provide it to everybody, but we do have funding that's limited where we could relocate her perhaps to a care home or a senior living facility. We could provide her with a cell phone and some food vouchers and you know a mode of transportation to get to and from doctor appointments. So we were able to do that for her.

Building Inspection and Career Journey

Ceci 38:02

So anytime that I have to vacate a unit because of substandard conditions or life safety conditions. You know, I try to get in there and try to do my due diligence, in the sense that I get my staff to start looking at resources any resources right, not just county, not just city, but anything out there that we could probably tap into. And Alameda County actually has a really great document that has a list of different services for seniors as well. So I try to tap into that and in fact I tasked some of my code officers hey, can you go through this list and see if it's still up to date, see if anything's changed, see if services have expanded. That way we keep it up to date for our purposes.

Greg 38:43

That's another one I'm going to have to get from you we run into this all the time and so a little bit shifting gears.

Greg 38:51

So it seems to me I've seen code enforcement agencies work a couple of different ways. One is enforcement and I've seen code enforcement officers we call them neighborhood preservation to soften it up a little bit body armor, body cams, all that sort of thing. We tend to show up in polos and we have more of a community service kind of perspective and it seems that you have that same perspective. It's more community service than enforcement.

Ceci 39:16

Yes, we do, yes, we do, I think you know. No, not necessarily. I think. I know that, because our times are ever changing, we have to be able to be chameleons in our profession, right? And one of the biggest things is understanding our audience and who we're working with, how we were perceived out in the field and understanding the climate of our state of affairs, right. So for us, yes, we are polo and work pants. We don't have a full tactical uniform. I actually prefer that my team doesn't have a tactical uniform. I want us to be able to be partners with our community members. That doesn't mean and it doesn't discount safety. So I just want to be very clear. That just means that you know we're going out there and we're building partnerships. That's the goal, right, we're trying to get some assistance and we're trying to gain compliance. However, the safety component is very much there. I think that we need to spend more time doing proper training of our teams across the board, you know, across the nation, really understanding not just the situational awareness. Because, I'll be real honest, customer service is huge. It's huge, you know.

Ceci 40:23

It's how you show up to a property that most of the time really plays into the response that you get and you know, for example, you know when, when you and I first met, it was an easy. It was an easy meet because you were very welcoming, right? I, I try to be that person that you know. If I don't know you, I'm going to be like, hey, this is who I am.

Ceci 40:47

And some, some people might say, gosh, you know, that girl has too much energy, what's wrong with her? But it's not that. It's more or less that I'm trying to get to know who you are. I'm trying to introduce myself, I'm trying to break the ice, if you will, and I think that that's kind of the approach with our cases too, is how we show up. I always say you know your unspoken language, your nonverbals are more important than your spoken language, than your verbal communication. Right, because you could be saying one thing, but if your expressions, your facial expressions and your body language are screaming, I don't want to be here. Oh, my gosh, look what I'm looking at. They're going to pick up on that. They're going to pick up on they're reading that first. Right, they're reading that first, and credibility is a big thing, you know how you show up is a huge thing.

Greg 41:37

So I think it's all. It's all combined, it's all connected. I couldn't agree with you more. It's a yes we're here to help and a partnership, rather than I'm here to put the hammer on you. You get a lot more. You get a better response. That way right. Everybody puts down their defenses and then you can have the dialogue.

Ceci 41:50

Yeah, absolutely.

Greg 41:52

We're kind of in a similar situation. We both have code enforcement, neighborhood preservation, building inspection, that sort of thing under our purview and it seems for me my building side seems to go is the volume of what we do, but seems to go effortlessly. And then the code enforcement side is where we have our obstacles. But I want to switch gears into the building inspection side, and what you do is fairly unique because not everyone integrates these two sides. Usually they're segregated in some capacity and a lot of times code enforcement is under PD right Right, and a lot of times code enforcement is under PD right Right. So on the building inspection side, you've been an inspector in the field, plan examiner. How have you come up in that arena?

Ceci 42:35

Oh yeah, absolutely. When I first started working in this industry, I started off as a telephone operator if you can believe that at a building department, county building department.

Greg 42:48

No, you have no communication skills at all, so I can't imagine you doing that.

Ceci 42:54

Yeah, it was interesting, it was fun. I joined and I was like, wow, what is this, what is building? And there was this one female officer who became my mentor, diane. I was just so in awe with her because she was a building inspector. Everyone else was a building inspector. They were all great, don't get me wrong. They were all great. Great folks, great mentors, they all really took a chance on me. But I always thought to myself, how do they know how to build a house? I don't understand.

Ceci 43:27

And, granted, my father, my mom and my brother all worked for Schickenwaller and Condiotti and so I was familiar with, you know, construction to some extent. I used to actually spend a lot of my afternoons at construction sites because my parents were still working, and so I'd just rip around and the one bike that we had and shared between me and my sisters, you know, probably not the safest things to do, but would walk around those construction sites or run around, if you will. So anyway, when I came into this building department, I wanted to learn more and so I asked hey, you know, can you take me out on a ride along? And they asked me. They said, of course, but you know, ride along pays for lunches. And I said, hey, you know what, whatever I'll put in the work. So we started to do that and I took a liking, a love actually, to building inspection and I told myself I am going to be a building inspector. So back then I started studying under the UBC on my own. One of our inspectors, shams, put together a little lunch class for us and he made it optional. Right, if you want to learn and you want to show up, you show up. Well, I made it a point to show up because I was willing to learn, I wanted to learn. So from that I stepped into a permatech role. I kept on with studying for my inspector cert.

Ceci 44:31

I switched gears from county to city. I was able to obtain my back then it was our B5, which is how they know it now, but it was a residential commercial cert. I always tell folks nowadays man, you guys are so lucky, because back then it was closed book and you had to go through like 100 questions and it was, you know, both commercial and residential construction, and it was tough and PlanChick was included into that. So you know, applied, landed in the city, santa Rosa, I was a building inspector trainee. It was a position that I applied for because I thought foot in the door, right, why not? Learned that? Then did some community development technician work as well. I was at CT Tech. My boss there allowed me to take on some plan review. So I did some over-the-counter plan review for remodels, minor remodels, pv systems, et cetera. I really loved to do that and then I decided, all right, well, what's next? I ended up going into code enforcement and I fell in love with it because I thought, shoot, code enforcement is a little bit of everything. It's a little bit of plan review, it's a little bit of building inspection, fire case management. I mean, you were a number of hats and so did that.

Ceci 45:45

Came up through the ranks I actually believe it or not inspected a foundation system for a small outbuilding over at Infineon Raceway. I was kind of put on the spot through my training and one of the inspectors is like CC, are you going to pass this? Because he said we're going to go do a quick foundation for an outbuilding. I said, sure, no problem. And I was so excited. I was like oh yeah, infineon Raceway, no way, it's so cool.

Ceci 46:07

So I went out there and he's like all right, what do you think I'm like what do you mean? I have all these contractors in front of me, so I'm like what are you talking about? He's like you're doing the inspection. This is Inspector Sevilla, my maiden name. Then and I was like, oh man, my heart was pumping and I was just like you got this, you got this.

Ceci 46:25

And I'm looking at it. I'm looking at the formwork, I'm looking at the rebar, the depth of the footing, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's good to go and they can pour. And he's like are you sure? Man, I hated that question, are you sure? And I just looked at him and he just was stone faced and I said yeah, yeah, I'm sure. He's like great, we're signing off, let's go, let's go to the next one. And I was like, oh, my goodness. So it just. It was a fun, fun time, fun experience. I tell you that I miss that a lot. So I tried to mimic that way of training and learning with with some of my team members throughout the course of time. So here I am, you know, went to to be the ACBO in Santa Rosa, was a senior inspector, accommodation inspector in Oakland, and now I'm here as interim for Oakland.

Greg 47:16

Wow, I like the confidence in the inspection. I like to kind of mess around with my contractors. Also, it gives me a perspective of what I'm going to look at and I'll ask questions right out of the get-go. And when I get a homer, a homerata kind of an answer, I'm like, oh, this is not going to go well. But when the guy is rattling off the specs and he knows the structural page that I need and he's got it bang right there, I'm like, okay, we're in good hands here. So confidence being prepared right.

Ceci 47:37

Exactly, yes, yes, paying attention, making those mental notes, so it's been a lot of fun. Note, so it's been a lot of fun.

Greg 47:46

Nice, so Oakland. How big is the building department?

Ceci 47:55

How many inspectors you have, how many examiners. So currently I have well, I have a total team of about 83-ish 85, maybe close to 90 now because I'm onboarding some new folks. But with my building inspection staff, I want to say I have somewhere around the mid-20 mark, our plants examiners. I have maybe gosh, I want to say maybe 15. They're all engineers and I have about 19 or so code officers. I'm just onboarding some code enforcement inspector assistants. It's a classification that we've had on the books but we haven't really used it for years and I'm super excited to bring those guys on board over the next couple of weeks. And then there's my permit counter unit that keeps growing. We're adding some more permatex. So yeah, we're rocking and rolling.

Mind, Mouth, and Harmony Leadership

Greg 48:43

It sounds like you are. That's quite a staff. You got a lot of things going on in Oakland.

Ceci 48:46

We do, we do, we've been doing a lot of, you know, going back, looking at things improvements, streamlining, trying to trying to make us better, more efficient. You know I do have a really great team and and I just got to say, you know, sometimes folks think of Oakland like oh my gosh Oakland. But I got to tell you they have heart, they really do have heart. They're, you know, peeps that are there, that have taken the time to learn. You know, oakland is daunting.

Ceci 49:16

I mean we gosh, we're almost at 500,000 in population, so you can imagine Wow. But they are a great group of folks, great team members, so we try to keep it fun and keep it light yeah.

Greg 49:25

So the Oakland airport is that under your purview or is that a separate entity?

Ceci 49:30

It's under our purview.

Greg 49:32

Wow, okay, so we have an airport also, not not an Oakland, it's just an airport, and it's a whole different kind of thing, right, having to deal with hangers, fuels and all sorts of things like that. That's very technically demanding and it's quite a little niche, so it takes specialized attention.

Ceci 49:49

It sounds like you have the staff for it though. Yeah, we have a great staff. They yeah, we really do, I mean, and we actually work closely with the Port of Oakland. So the Port of Oakland, while we manage certain aspects of it, the Port of Oakland takes lead on them. So, yeah, Perfect.

Greg 50:07

Hey, I want to transition over to training. You mentioned, I think you mentioned you took your trip to the East Coast and it was a teaching thing. Were you doing a training?

Ceci 50:16

Yes, so I visited this small city in Pennsylvania, chester, pennsylvania Great group of young professionals there that were wanting to get certified through the International Property Maintenance Code, and so I joined them to do a training for them, an overview, some practice exams and such. They are trying to bolster up their unit. They also do a combination of inspections to some regard, so they're also actually studying for their B1 exam, which I thought was really impressive. So, yeah, went over there, spend a little bit of time. You know they got a lot of work to do, but they have, like I said, a really great group. Really great group.

Greg 51:00

I think you mentioned to me that you were doing a training or speaking at the ICC conference in Cleveland this year.

Ceci 51:08

I am. I am I'm very excited for it. This will be the second time that I get to speak at the ICC annual conference, so I feel privileged to be able to do so. So ICC is taking a strong approach at building a code enforcement certificate program and it's a conversation that was started gosh, I want to say a couple years back with ICC.

Ceci 51:28

Many years ago, I developed their first webinar series on code enforcement training because I found that, you know, they had their basic code enforcement book. But that basic code enforcement book, like I was explaining to one of my colleagues at ICC, that's basically your intro to code or to building inspection. It's not necessarily code enforcement, code compliance. So it's really great to see that, out of the conversations that we had a couple of years ago, that they're moving into creating this code enforcement module and certificate program, which is great. So they've reached out and said, hey, you know, would you be willing to come in and do a couple of courses? And I said for sure. So I'll be covering a class on the IPMC and the zoning code, doing a brief overview, and then I'll also be presenting on safety protocols during inspections for code enforcement officers.

Greg 52:18

Taking notes as we're going, because I find this training is very important to us. So I'm going to assume so I'm not quite sure how the training thing works but when you do a training, do the trainees get CEUs?

Ceci 52:29

They do.

Greg 52:30

I'm actually a preferred provider instructor for ICC, yeah is, I have my NPOs and usually I will send them out in tandem with one of my inspectors under certain circumstances. And you said, I think you do a training kind of an overview of building codes for code enforcement. Is that accurate?

Ceci 52:52

That is so when I first started to kind of delve into the code enforcement training world, enforcement training world, one of the things that I found was highly needed was the entry-level knowledge through MEPs, or what we call MEPs. You know mechanical electrical plumbing trades. There wasn't a lot of that. A lot of it was more like you know your casework, you know how you go to a hearing or a court or you know regulations of specialized enforcement, but we didn't really touch on unpermitted construction. You know what permits are required, what should we look at on the trade side of mechanical electrical plumbing? And so we started to bring that back and implement that into part of the training. And so it looked like. You know, when you go out there, you know how do you tell if a water heater has been changed out, how do you tell if there's a new roof on the house, how do you tell if new plumbing was installed or they, you know, added new electrical, upgraded their electrical panel, installed new windows. You know what are the you know FBI clues, if you will. Yeah, so kind of understanding what you're looking at, and I will tell you. It was so much needed, greg, because you know, I remember teaching a class on that initially, and you know, at the break I was asking the attendees what should I think of that?

Ceci 54:15

They were like, oh man, we had no idea what you're talking about, because that is not what we do. We just focus on blight nuisance, that's it. And so that was an eye opener for me, because you and I both know code enforcement is code enforcement. We're enforcing the codes, right, not just our blight nuisance but also our unpermitted construction. But, like you said, sometimes and to the day, code programs might be split up. Building code enforcement might be under building, blind nuisance might be under, you know, pd, or maybe under community preservation or neighborhood revitalization. So we're split off in so many ways. But I'm a firm believer that it's nice to have them under the building purview because we, at the end of the day, all connect with each other, right? There's always something that might require zoning or might require building, and so it just made sense that we live under the same wheelhouse.

Greg 55:08

That makes perfect sense and I like the concept. So the thought of sending my NPOs to get their building certs, their MEPs certs, so combined building, mechanical, electrical, plumbing I mean I don't know. We're talking about 3000 pages of code. It would be difficult for me to want them to be full-on building inspectors, but if they had at least a working knowledge of those things and what to look for, that would be extremely helpful.

Ceci 55:31

Yes, I would agree. I would agree because it would give them the confidence to be able to say, okay, yeah, that's new, that's changed. I don't know all the logistics, but I know it's changed. I, I don't know all the logistics, but I know it's changed, I know it's new, I could tell, and then they could go in and then just kick it back or go back and talk to their fellow building colleagues. But even that right, I mean that's important enough to be able to understand why you're calling out and when to call it out.

Greg 55:53

Exactly so, Cece. I wanted to get a little perspective on your management, or actually your management perspective. You once mentioned to me mind, mouth and harmony. Can you explain that to me?

Farewell and Final Thoughts

Ceci 56:05

Yeah, absolutely so. Mind mouth harmony is a way of being able to communicate with folks. It's through the teachings of the great George Thompson, who was a creator of verbal judo. So I spent some time, you know, as I was preparing, you know, for my professional journey, kind of understanding how we move forward with, you know, managing teams and being able to strengthen our teams and so on, the management and Monarch approach. What I like to do is so.

Ceci 56:33

Monarch Consulting was born out of a need to be able to engage our field inspectors code inspectors, if you will teaching them the basics as to how we communicate with folks on the field. Because, again, going back to what I mentioned earlier, I found that there was a deficit in the types of training that we were providing and so being able to implement how we communicate with folks, how we deescalate, how we gain compliance through a mind-mouth harmony, meaning your thoughts, what you're saying, how you're explaining them. They all need to match. You need to be in line with what it is that your goal is in representing information, but also what it is that you're focusing as the end goal of that conversation or that interaction. And so, when it comes to training, that's a big part of management, right?

Ceci 57:21

I focus Monarch a lot on organizational development and code enforcement or field inspector development or truly anybody, anybody that's working in any type of profession. Right, we would be able to provide that training as to how do we engage, how do we grow, how do we communicate, how do we get things done through a mind-mouth harmony approach, really understanding all the levels that it takes to be able to, you know, move the needle, if you will, to get things done in whatever profession that you're in, whether that's, you know, going out and getting compliance on a case or getting a plan review approved, or issuing a permit, you know, or even leading your teams, understanding your teams, right, what is it that they're bringing to the table? Not missing out on the local talent that you have in-house. So it's been one of the things that I've been focusing on for many, many years very closely.

Greg 58:14

Or Monarch. Do you have a website? If somebody wanted to contact you for those services, how do they get ahold of you?

Ceci 58:23

Yeah, so currently I'm building our website. It is my last, my last little task that I have on my list that I haven't quite gotten to because I've been a little bit busy. But yes, I'm building out the website. That should be up and running more than likely by the end of the year. If anybody wants to get ahold of me for any training, I always just let them know. Please shoot me an email so you know I can share that email here if you'd like. Right C-M-U-E-L-A at monarchconsultinginfo.

Ceci 58:50

So more than happy to you know, connect. You know whatever may come up, more than happy to have a conversation. One of the biggest things, too, is mentorship. So I do a lot of mentorship. I do a lot of leadership development, not just the technical. Again, I'm a firm believer that being able to be the strongest inspector out there is a combination of not just technical but also how you're moving in this life, how you're walking this path that you're in as an inspector, so really understanding who you're working with and for. We just got to honor our lives, we got to honor our journey in this professional realm, but we also really got to look at it as how great it is that we get the opportunity to serve our community, each other, our colleagues, but also how great it is that we look at our work as rewarding and still find balance. So I always say you know, live life full of energy. You know, start honoring life a bit more, enjoy the journey, don't get stuck in the suck.

Greg 59:52

Very wise words, very altruistic and very wise. Cece, I want to thank you for being on the podcast. This, for me, was awesome, great information and very entertaining. I'm not planning to be in Cleveland, but maybe I'll make it out there and catch that training there. I want to thank you again for being on the podcast.

Ceci 1:00:09

Yeah, of course. No, thank you, Greg, it's been a real. It's been real fun. So thank you for having me.

Greg 1:00:14

Take care All right.

Greg 1:00:17

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Tactics Talk. A huge thank you to Cece Muella for sharing her wisdom, her journey and her powerful reminder to not get stuck in the suck. If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with a friend who could use some inspiration. By all means, join the conversation. This is unique because it's by industry professionals for industry professionals, so share with us. What do you do different? What do you think CC is doing? Spot on, and remember whether you're leading a team, serving a community or chasing your next goal. Honor the journey, find the balance and keep moving forward with energy. Until next time. I wish you the best, take care.