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Wayne Snell - Leadership Rarely Asks Permission When A City Needs You & It Depends
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Building Resilient Communities: A Conversation with Wayne Snell of the City of Irving, Texas
Episode guest: Wayne Snell, Director of Inspections, City of Irving, Texas
Host: Greg Diktakis, Takis Talk Podcast
Introduction
When it comes to shaping safe, thriving cities, few voices are as insightful as Wayne Snell’s. As the Director of Inspections for the City of Irving, Texas, Wayne combines decades of field experience with a forward-thinking approach to leadership and innovation.
In this Takis Talk conversation, host Greg Diktakis explores Wayne’s journey—from the life-changing experience of Hurricane Katrina to embracing AI and drone technology in modern inspections—and how he’s redefining leadership in public service.
From Hurricane Katrina to Building Resilience
Wayne’s perspective on resilience stems from personal experience. Living in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, he saw firsthand how quickly systems can fail—and how communities rebuild.
“There’s one part nobody captures—the smell,” he recalled. “Imagine rotting meat for months. It was a life-changing experience that taught me how fragile our systems can be.”
That moment defined his belief in strong building codes, preparedness, and collaboration—core principles that guide his work in Irving today.
Preparedness Through Collaboration
In Texas, the threats are different—tornadoes, hail, and severe weather—but the lessons remain the same. Irving’s emergency management team, led by the police department, coordinates annual mock drills to ensure readiness across all departments.
“We bring everyone together—fire, police, engineering, and public works,” Wayne said. “When we have a problem, we’re all at the table working together to solve it.”
This spirit of collaboration defines Irving’s executive culture and reflects how leadership and teamwork drive community resilience.
Embracing Technology: Drones and Virtual Inspections
While not an “early adopter” by his own admission, Wayne is practical about technology. His department uses drones and virtual inspection platforms to improve efficiency and safety.
“For under $6,000, we launched a drone program with two high-quality drones,” he explained. “Every inspection is recorded and tied directly to the permit record—it’s safe, efficient, and permanent.”
From AI-powered inspection tools to digital permitting systems, Wayne sees technology as a bridge between innovation and accountability.
Leadership, Ethics, and the Power of Communication
In his article “Pro Ethics,” Wayne reminds readers that building officials aren’t obstacles—they’re partners in progress.
“We’re not here to obstruct projects. We’re here to ensure safety,” he said. “Good communication is key. People just want to understand why.”
His leadership philosophy balances empathy, professionalism, and pragmatism—a mindset captured in his favorite phrase:
“It depends. What are you trying to accomplish?”
‘Insight Inside the Built Environment’ — Writing to Inspire
Wayne is also the author and publisher of “Insight Inside the Built Environment,” a newsletter that explores leadership, public administration, and community building.
What began as a response to his daughters’ question—“Dad, what do you actually do?”—has grown into a respected voice in the building safety and leadership community.
“The goal is to strengthen collaboration and remind others that leadership connects
Opening And Guest Introduction
SPEAKER_00Welcome to another episode of Takis Talk, where we sit down with the decision makers shaping cities, strengthening communities, and leading with purpose. I'm your host, Greg McTacas. In this episode, we're talking with Wayne Snell, Director of Inspections for the City of Irving, Texas, a member of their executive team, and the author and publisher of Insight the Built Department. We'll hear his first hand and somewhat gruesome Hurricane Katrina experience. Discuss several of his articles from hopelessness to hiring insight. Although not an early adopter, Wayne immerses himself in evolving technologies, such as the current buzzword, AI. Explore its practical views and incorporating it into other tools. From time to time, he drops one of his pearls of wisdom. Because in public service, leadership rarely asks permission to be needed. A quote from one of Wayne's articles. So sit back. Let us share your morning commute. Let's get into it with Wayne. Wayne, welcome to the podcast. How are you this morning?
SPEAKER_01I am great. Thank you for having me, Greg.
SPEAKER_00Now typically I like to start the podcasts out light, maybe funny. In this instance, I'm going to go in another direction, and it kind of ties into something we've got going on at Livermore. Wayne, you used to live in New Orleans. Now you were there, you lived there when Katrina happened, although you weren't there when the hurricane occurred. Now I understand that this is kind of an emotional topic for you, but I want to run through this. Tell me a little bit about Katrina.
Katrina’s Aftermath And Fragile Systems
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna I I said a lot of ominas there, so just keep that in mind. Katrina, Katrina was both an experience and a life-changing experience. Yes, I was there during Katrina. I wasn't there when the hurricane actually hit.
SPEAKER_00One of our inspectors was out there. He was working with FEMA, and he painted such a gruesome picture.
SPEAKER_01I I could imagine it there's one part, I there was one part of that that nobody really captures, and that was the smell. Oh. Imagine rotting meat and what that smells like, and that's what it smelled like anywhere you went for months after the hurricane. And I saw firsthand how fragile systems can be when you have codes or don't have codes, and they are in force, and they aren't in force, and what resilience actually looks like. Uh, because the people of New Orleans are very resilient.
Disaster Drills And Emergency Coordination
SPEAKER_00I think Katrina was a necessary discussion to have. And I'm going to try to do something extremely difficult, may actually be kind of stupid, but how do you lighten the subject of disasters? And the reason I bring it up is that in Livermore, we're doing a mock drill. We're calling it the Great Shakeout. We're part of Cal OES. And so we're doing a mock drill in the event of an earthquake disaster and how we respond. And part of our job is doing assessments after the fact and seeing how quickly we can get infrastructures back up, getting people back in their homes, temporary shelters, all that kind of great stuff. Now, do you have a similar program in Texas?
SPEAKER_01We do. Those things are actually for I think they differ from city to city. For our city, that is all managed through our emergency management team, which is part of the police department. So, yes, we do those and they bring all the departments together. Annually, we do it at least once a year, but they try to bring us together at least a couple of times of the year just to keep us in tune with uh each other. We have an emergency plan in place. Any event that there is some type of emergency, whether it's weather, whether it's a major accident or some type of natural disaster.
Risks In North Texas: Tornadoes And Hail
SPEAKER_00What are the natural disasters that affect you folks? Here in California, obviously, we've got earthquakes.
SPEAKER_01Here's probably going to be a lot of tornadoes. I won't say that we get tornadoes on a regular basis, but when you look at the statistics, this area of the country is tornado alley. There are numerous tornadoes that touch down every year. They're not major like you hear about in some places, but it's enough to damage sections of a neighborhood. And it causes damage. So yeah, I'd say tornadoes is the big one.
SPEAKER_00I always hear about the uh the the Texas hail storms. I think I had mentioned to you before we were there visiting, and I saw people that had these inflatable bubble covers over their RVs. Here in California, we also have a lot of PV on the roofs. So does that impact you folks?
SPEAKER_01It does. Yeah. Hail, hail's the big problem here, especially considering uh when we do get those uh thunderstorms, they bring hail and tornadoes. So one or the other. Every year there is some, you know, most people's the biggest things that's damaged are usually cars. But when we have hail damage on PV, we have a lot of PV getting installed. So we do get those same damages as you're describing in California.
SPEAKER_00For the sake of reference, Irving, what side what are we talking about? Population area and so forth.
Health Inspections And Restaurant Realities
SPEAKER_01So Irving's a dynamic and diverse city. It's centrally located in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. We have a population of about 260,000. And that strategic location being near DFW's International Airport, it makes it a major hub for businesses, for economic development. It attracts a lot of corporate headquarters. There are many mixed-use developments, large-scale commercial projects. And the city maintains a balanced blend of residential, commercial, some industrial growth, and it makes the work that we do both complex and rewarding.
SPEAKER_00Under your purview, you have building, but you also have health. How big is your staff?
SPEAKER_01Correct. My staff overall, we have a staff of 35 people, including myself. And as you mentioned, it's uh permitting, plan review, inspections, as well as health inspections.
SPEAKER_00I know that the few times that I've done inspections in restaurants, it's never been for health. It's been some sort of uh tenant improvement or whatnot. Getting to go back into the kitchen or whatever always tells me where I want to go have lunch and where I don't. So you you you you guys must really have an insight on that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we cover the whole gambit when it comes to that.
Tech Adoption: AI, Virtual Inspections, Drones
SPEAKER_00Dallas Morning News quoted you saying newer, faster digital systems. I think you're I think you embrace technology. You're one of those folks that really likes tech. Are you an early adopter, or is it uh is it one of those things of let somebody else break it, fix it, and then we'll come on?
SPEAKER_01It all depends. If I see something up and coming, I'm jumping on board. But, you know, other things can kind of wait. I mean, talking about technology, the big one right now is artificial intelligence, AI. But there's so many ways of using it. I think it it does well with being able to respond quickly communications-wise. It it offers platforms that can really streamline what you're trying to communicate, etc. We're in the process right now of implementing drones and virtual inspections. Although we actually started virtual inspections back, obviously, like many others during the uh COVID period when nobody can go out. We were using any platform available, but today there are actual platforms that work really well for providing virtual inspections. They're actually doing, yeah, they're doing uh things to actually help pick things up when you go through those inspections. So, to a point, they're kind of using AI within the platform in many ways. Drones, that's a big one. It's helping us get to locations and areas of buildings that we weren't able to get to before, especially when dealing with places that you can't reach or they're out of, you know. We don't allow people to get on ladders and climb things. So having the drones really helps.
SPEAKER_00See, no, we still go up, and actually, I'm I'm very rarely in the field. I think for me, it's a treat to go in the field. I hate being in the office, but I had to go out in the field the other day. There was a roof, and you're familiar, 10 and 12 pitch. It's a pretty steep roof. They had uh some cleats on the roof, and I had a very bad experience as a contractor. I was up on a really tall structure, 12 and 12, very steep. Cleats kicked out, and I almost took a 40-foot dive onto the concrete. And so I looked at that and I'm thinking, hmm, I don't know that I really want to go up there. And so I did everything I could to assess from the ground. And the drone thing is really interesting to me. But then there's the cost perspective, and I don't know how deep or if you're actually using those drones yet. If you have a good hack or an economical approach to that.
Drone Costs, Workflows, And Records
SPEAKER_01Uh actually, the cost of drones, I think, have become very reasonably priced. We entered into that program on with under$6,000. So we have two drones, and these are very good drones. We have other departments who have actually used them. So for under$6,000, you can actually buy the hardware, and most of them come equipped now with cameras. So by utilizing the technology for virtual inspections, we can interconnect, you know. So when we use the drone, we just use the virtual inspection platform, and we're able to do a thorough inspection. They're recorded, they're maintained in our digital system. So anytime someone uses one, it's it's recorded, it goes into the permit that's being inspected and it's there in perpetuity.
Street Vendors, Food Trucks, And Oversight
SPEAKER_00I like that approach. I think you know what's funny is we're here in California, we always think of ourselves as being very progressive tech. You know, we got the Googles, the apples out here. And then sometimes I travel and I find that there are other jurisdictions that are far ahead of us. And I know that some of our engineering inspection teams have drones. We haven't even started that discussion. And I think I'm gonna get laughed at if I ask for drones, but I'm gonna try it anyway.
SPEAKER_01I tell my kids all the time the answers always no unless you ask.
SPEAKER_00We touched for just a moment on the health inspection and knowing where to eat and where not to eat. We have a situation here with some street vendors that pop up and they're circumventing the whole health inspection process. And what I find funny, I I can't find myself purchasing food from someone that doesn't have you know restroom facilities, means to wash their hands. They don't even have the the products refrigerated. And yet, you know, there they are. Is a street vending thing a big deal, Interving?
SPEAKER_01Not so much street vending as mobile food trucks. Mobile food trucks are very prominent, they're around, they get you know, they come in and out. That's a tough one, Greg. Because, like you, the local municipality has minimal oversight over mobile food vendors, they're supposed to go through the county, but the county is they can't oversee all of those mobile food vendors within a particular place. So, you know, I always caution people, like you were just saying, you don't want to eat food because food foreign illnesses can put you out of commission. So I caution anyone ever eating someplace and there is no health inspection involved.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. It's just self-preserve preservation on my part. Maybe other people are more daring. I agree. Uh your position is part of the Irving executive team, correct?
SPEAKER_01Mine is, yes. I'm the director of inspections, so I uh communicate directly with the uh city manager's office.
SPEAKER_00From our executive team, uh we have some great folks. There's been some change since I've been here. We have a very proactive group during COVID. The they took really good care of the employees. We have an economic development director who's part of that team that's brought in Gillig bus manufacturing. I just uh you were a former tradesman and a former inspector, I believe. I when I go out to things like Gillig. So for anyone that's listening, if you need buses, Gillig from Livermore, but I go out there and I just geek out over this facility. The the way that they build these buses, I've gone in. I see a 40-foot-long bus suspended 15 feet in the air, and there are people inside it, on top of it, underneath it, doing their QC. I went off on a tangent, but our our executive team, new city manager, there's very driven, they're dynamic and very forward thinking. Your executive team, when you're directing the city, is it collaborative or does everybody have their lane and you're just kind of bringing that data to the table?
SPEAKER_01It's very collaborative. That's one of the things I enjoy about working for the city of Irving is we work collaboratively across all departments, whether it's fire, police, CIP, uh, engineering, planning, etc. When we have a problem, we're all at the table working together to solve that problem.
SPEAKER_00I think I had mentioned to you some months back we made a trip to the Dallas area. We were in Irving, and so many of your communities are so well taken care of. The infrastructure is great, the roads are great, the communities are clean. I know from my perspective, doing what we do that takes a lot of effort and it takes a lot of teamwork. So kudos to you folks, because it looks like you've found a good hack there.
SPEAKER_01Greatly appreciate it. I I can I'd say the majority, you're absolutely correct, but there are the handfuls that uh towns and cities that just don't have the resources. Uh I'd say North Texas among municipalities has it's well resourced to be able to accomplish all those things.
SPEAKER_00ICC is coming up in Cleveland. Are you going?
SPEAKER_01It's it's always challenging. I was talking to somebody the other day. There are so many events and so many conferences that occur throughout the year. I would love to go to all of them, but then I probably would only be working it in my office part of the year instead of most of the year. So unfortunately, I will not be at that conference.
Family, Mentorship, And Career Path
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I went last year. I'm not going this year. I think they're a great resource, obviously great for networking, but some great training there. I haven't been to Cleveland, but you know, I guess I'll save that for later.
SPEAKER_01They definitely have some uh nice uh events going on at this year's conference.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's right. They've got the rock and roll hall of fame and things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that. Okay. Personally, so I saw an article about you and one of your daughters at the University of North Texas, but you have several daughters, all high achievers, from what I understand.
SPEAKER_01Uh, I've got three daughters. My oldest daughter is Hannah. She's a graduate of the University of North Texas. My second daughter, which is the article you're referencing, her name is Alaya, and my youngest daughter is Clea. And my first two daughters both uh graduated from the University of North Texas, and my youngest is currently attending the University of Texas at Austin.
SPEAKER_00Wow, what a team you have going on there. Yeah, it's a great team. Yeah. Somebody set the bar high. That's that's that's neat. Ladies that are are driven. I I like that. Yes, I try to instill the same thing. Are they? They are. Is that you or is that mom?
SPEAKER_01Uh I have to give credit where credit is due. That's mom.
SPEAKER_00All right. We're working the safe way out.
SPEAKER_01We're both driven people. So uh uh it's great to see those uh aspects coming out in them.
Why The Newsletter Exists And Its Mission
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I I find that uh leading by example helps. And so I was looking at your resume and starting as a tradesperson, getting into inspection, going to UNT, everything that you've done, your involvement with the building officials of Texas, and then also, you know, your newsletter, Insight Inside the Built Environment. Yes. So I know from doing this podcast that doing these extracurriculars is a time suck. But and you've put out some great articles. And so, what was the motivation here? And I want to dig into a few of those articles.
Homelessness, Code Enforcement, And Limits
SPEAKER_01Sure, sure. So several years ago, I think I've been doing this newsletter now a couple of years, but it all started with my daughter asking, Dad, there, you know, and as adults there asking, Dad, we know what your title is, but what is it that you actually do? So inside the built environment, it exists for me to inspire leadership and awareness across building safety, public administration, as well as economic development. So it's for me, it's about highlighting the vital role that we as building officials play in shaping communities. It's that place where safety, good governance, and responsible growth come together. The goal for me now is to build appreciation for the for the profession, strengthen the collaboration as we exist within public administration, and remind others that effective leadership connects people, process, and purpose.
SPEAKER_00You thought that out. You've got a goal here.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00What strikes me is I'm reading through the articles, and there's such diversity in the article. So initially I thought this is going to be all building, but I'm seeing articles in there about homelessness, about hiring, about all sorts of things. That's right. So you have a lot of different perspectives you're coming at this from.
SPEAKER_01And you're absolutely right. You mentioned the homeless one. I remember when I first wrote that. That article actually, I there was a young lady who worked in our city manager's office, and she was reading my articles, and she said, Wayne, I would love to hear something about some some, you know, some particular topics. So I asked her, I said, write them down. Let me know what they are. She wrote them down. That homeless one that I wrote, that one's a tough one at the end of the day. But that's how that one came to exist, just because someone had suggested it. So I said, let me let me make a stab at it. Because those conversations always come up, but I don't think there's any one clear answer. There's so many aspects of why there is, it's hard to answer why. It's not just the economics, it's not just affordability, it's not just mental health, it's everything to take that uh it will take to solve that problem. I can't solve it, but I did write about it.
SPEAKER_00I'm with you there. We struggle with it from time to time. We have a lot of resources, and so many times it's almost like you hit this wall and you don't know what direction to go. It's like you've exhausted everything.
SPEAKER_01Right.
Hiring: Inside Vs Outside Perspectives
SPEAKER_00We're lucky that we have dedicated police officers that are homeless liaisons and take care of that problem for us. But we also handle code enforcement. And sometimes in code enforcement we have other issues. Hoarding, right? So they tell me that that's that's some sort of cognitive dysfunction. I'm not quite sure, but you know, that wrestling with that, and and you have a person that so how are you able to own this home? And and uh you're paying property taxes, you're doing all these things, but yet you're not able to function. You have no power, you have no water, you know. It's really dumbfounding at times.
SPEAKER_01It yeah, that that's hard. It's hard. Because you and I logically can't understand it, or at least I can. And it's it's hard. That's that goes beyond anything that I my experts can uh take care of.
SPEAKER_00You had the article, October 25th, and you're going into the week and just a play of what your world is kind of like in a narrative. Yes, yes. And uh the line I really liked was Saturday didn't show up on the calendar, but real leadership rarely asks permission uh to be needed.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's so spot on. It's uh so many times you're always on, right? And you you you always have to take that call and you have to rise up to whatever's coming up in the community.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly right. There are times that things come up, and you just gotta be able to be. It's not what you know, it's who you know, too. So if I can't answer the question, I know somebody that will.
Pro Ethics: Inspectors As Partners
SPEAKER_00It's funny you say that because you know, we have some of these call-outs at night. It might be a vehicle into a structure or a fire or something. I usually get those calls, but you said no, knowing who you know. We have a a kid, I call him a kid, Joe Prime, he heads up our maintenance department, and they are kind of like the Swiss Army knife of everything. And whenever we run into a problem that we can't handle any other way, we call Joe. Right. And I could only imagine Joe every time he sees the phone and it IDs me, he's probably shaking his head like, ah, not again. But that he's one of those folks that uh that takes care of everything, and this guy never says no. So when I read this article, I thought about Joe because he's always on. Another one that I really liked was the hiring within and outside. And there's some great insights because I've heard the whole thing of institutional knowledge, and then you know, you have your little island. When I came on board Livermore, they hadn't uh hired anyone for quite a while, and they called it the Livermore Island because it was they just had no influence from outside. And then a couple of us came on board, and it was adding a little different perspective of at this other jurisdiction we did X, Y, and Z, and not necessarily changing things, but being able to compare and seeing if you're doing things properly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and and as I you'll hear me say this a lot. People ask me questions, and I always lead with, it depends. What is it that you're trying to accomplish? Because yes, promoting from within can be great because you're showing that you're nurturing and preparing people for that natural secession. But you don't always have the situation where that secession can take place. Sometimes when the ideas get stagnant, you need that outside perspective. What do they call that? Groupthink. You don't want groupthink all the time, you need something new to come in to play to solve problems. So sometimes bringing in someone from the outside is a good thing. And like I mentioned in my article, it's not taking a particular direction, it's just understanding that sometimes I got to go outside, sometimes I can promote from within. Neither is right, neither is wrong. It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish. But I will say, it's very important that when you do have people prepared to take those next roles, you need to consider them seriously before going outside.
Codes, Amendments, And Regional Alignment
SPEAKER_00I agree, I agree. I want to dig into one of your other articles. I like this one. Pro ethics. Building officials are not here to obstruct progress. So many times we go out in the field and you know, you'll do an inspection, whatever it is, and people seem to think that you're there as an adversary, but in reality, you're not. And I think this article kind of speaks to that. You're kind of there trying to get a working on a symbiotic relationship to get to a common goal.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And you and I both know there are negative stereotypes that exist within our industry, and that's part of why I write these articles to bring awareness of what is the reality of how it should operate. Again, there are those stereotypes that we unfortunately have to work through. But as I like to say, those who complain the most do the least. And what I mean by that is it's a lot easier to go and complain to a city manager than it is to resolve issues. But at the end of the day, it all boils down to good communication. You have to answer why something is what it is, and a lot of times that conversation doesn't take place, which frustrates the applicant, the homeowner, the contractor, as well as the inspector. The inspector may not know why something was done a particular way, or the contractor may not understand why something was not approved. You can't just blindly approve things. They have to meet, and in our case, a minimum standard, which is whatever particular version of the building code that is adopted. People adopt various versions of it. California is it follows the ICC to an extent, but y'all have your own building code, correct?
SPEAKER_00We do. We like to embellish. We've uh we've taken off a little bit of a tangent on the ADA. You know, the NEC we adopt almost verbatim, but we what like to call it California Electrical Code. Yeah, we do things like that. Uh you Texas is I codes, or do you have Texas codes?
Talent Pipeline And Workforce Shortages
SPEAKER_01We're the I codes. But I think the difference is when y'all do that, it's statewide, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_01So here every municipality adopts an I-Code with their local amendments. In North Texas, we try to do a regional amendment. So everyone in the North Texas region has or within reason has the same amendments. No, we don't have a Texas code. We follow an I code, but we try to adopt regionally the same set of amendments that we put in place.
SPEAKER_00ICC, have you ever been part of any of the committees?
SPEAKER_01Years ago before COVID, I was part of the, I want to say it was the committee for, I forget what the name of it was, but it was to bring awareness to the industry type thing. But outside of that, not not so much. I like doing things more regionally and locally. That just that's what works best for me.
Traits Of Great Inspectors And Growth
SPEAKER_00That makes sense. So having said that, I know I went to uh ICC's leadership academy uh a couple of years ago now, and we were told, and I can't remember exactly the number, but I want to say it was something like 25 to 50 percent vacancies in a lot of those positions with within the next few years. And so, you know, we we hire, we're lucky we're we're pretty well staffed. I could probably use another inspector always. But so a lot of times when we go out to hire, you you know, we're bringing in tradespeople, and tradespeople here in California are doing fairly well, they're getting paid fairly well, and so it's hard to do that recruiting sometimes. How do you do you have any hacks? Do you have any insights and how we can get more people into our industry?
SPEAKER_01I won't say they're hacks, but what we've been doing here locally is starting as young as elementary school, and whenever they have a professionals day or you know, days where they have they allow people to come in and just talk about their professions. We try to include ourselves just to bring awareness to young folks about the industry because there are a lot of people who go into trade school, there are people that go into college uh for construction management. I try to bring awareness at every phase of education just to make them aware that hey, this exists. So let's say you want to go into the trades, but you don't actually Want to labor, it's a great opportunity to uh look at inspections, plan review, permitting, what have you, as a profession. So we over the last several years, uh, we've been working with trade schools, etc., to bring that awareness. But I think that's you know, it's not a local problem. It's a problem nationwide across the board, whether it's trades, whether it's this particular profession, what have you. So it'll be interesting to see over the next five to ten years.
SPEAKER_00What are some of the must-have traits for an inspector?
SPEAKER_01I'll be honest with you. I think the first, the the main trait that a person must have in this industry is the proper personality. I'm not talking about introverts, extroverts. I'm talking about being able to communicate with others why we do what we do in a polite and customer service manner. I think I wrote some articles on this too, so I know I have.
SPEAKER_00I'm sure they're in there.
Management Skills, Degrees, And City Size
SPEAKER_01They are in there, but the reason I say that is those are difficult to teach, those types of traits. Either someone has it or they don't. I'm not saying they can't be taught, but I can teach technical skills way quicker and way easier than trying to teach someone how to be polite.
SPEAKER_00I agree with everything you said. You can't, that's the that's that uh programming that's deep in the operating system.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_00What advice would you give a person? Say you have a new plants examiner, a new inspector starting out. Is it going out, is it getting a degree? Is it certs? Is it networking? What do you think is the most important?
SPEAKER_01It depends.
SPEAKER_00There it goes, there he goes. It depends things.
SPEAKER_01It depends. Because it it depends on what someone's goal is. If someone's goal, because I've met people, they're very content with being a permit tech. They're very content with being a plans examiner or an inspector.
SPEAKER_00Okay, what if they want to be Wayne?
Career Ambitions And City Management
SPEAKER_01Some people want well, if they want to, first and foremost, I tell them, you're definitely gonna have to set some goals, but I tell them, first and foremost, take some managerial classes. If you plan on being a building official or a director, it is more important to have those managerial skills than it is to know the technical aspects. And again, it depends. Are you looking to work in a small municipality or are you looking to work in a major city? Because again, it's gonna depend. If you're planning on working in a major city, you're gonna have to have a degree. Whatever that degree is, is up to you, but you're gonna have to have a degree because I am not familiar with any major metropolitan city that does not have that as a requirement. You could be a master code professional, but you the algorithms or whatever that people use to uh process those applications, if that degree isn't checked off, you're not you're probably not going to move on into the review process. Whereas in a small town, they'll probably consider you. But in a small town, you're probably all of the above. You're probably the permit tech, the plans examiner, inspector, and billing official all in one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, there are some of those jurisdictions.
SPEAKER_01Whereas in a major city like this one, my go, my role is I need to know the data. I need to be able to communicate the data, I need to make the request, I need to put the people in those seats to provide those uh services. I don't get out much in my in my role at all. I spend more time on the business side than I do on the inspections, and some people don't like that. I enjoy that. So it all depends.
SPEAKER_00It depends. All right, so I have a title for the podcast. Here's my takeaway of Wayne. You you have a lot of dimensions. You certainly have the education inspections, you've got the building perspective, you've got the health perspective. But if a recruiter came on board, would you be open to a conversation in terms of a city manager, assistant city manager? Because I really feel you have that capacity.
SPEAKER_01Greg, it's like you're you're reading my mind. When I got into this uh many years ago, I never expected to yes, I to answer just one word, yes. Uh those are aspects that I really genuinely believe, even though that my background has been on technical, building, etc., I think it's an underutilized uh position. We we are we recognize there are other departments that people see as just natural secession into city management or assistant city manager roles. But then again, that's why I write these articles, just to bring extra awareness to what we do, because we carry those same skills. We have to deal with issues, we have to answer problem questions, we have to resolve problems. We do the same work that any ACM or city manager does on a regular daily basis. So, to answer your question, yes. My my issue for me, the reason I haven't actually landed one of those types of roles is two things. I'm not willing to move, and I'm not willing to downgrade myself to work in a small jurisdiction making less. I I think being in a role of an ACM or a city manager is a promotional opportunity, not going backwards. And I probably could go and work for a smaller town, but I'm not willing to take on those headaches for you know the salaries and the headaches that you deal with at that level.
SPEAKER_00No, I I understand all that.
SPEAKER_01That sorry to be blunt about that part, but I think it's important to uh bring attention to.
SPEAKER_00Blunt is what I'm looking for, and it's it's it's tough, right? Because I think Irving is going to be a hard act to follow. Yeah. Exactly. See, I'm I'm in the same boat. I love where I'm at. There are some other opportunities where the money might actually be a little bit better, but I'm looking at the entire the overall grand scheme of things and work-life environment, the work that we do here, it's so diversified. I again, I keep using the word, but I geek out over things that we're doing grandma and grandpa's bathroom remodel, and then we're doing a hundred hydrogen fuel production facility. It's just crazy. And then the team that I work with and work for are so awesome. So doing these podcasts now for a very short period of time, I find that people that are driven and are very successful have a few things in common. One, they've been able to embrace the fact that they got to do some dirty work and actually roll up their sleeves and get the job done. And then the other that I've noticed is that most people that are successful and driven have a very strong family, I'm gonna say, perspective ethic. And it seems that you have that. You you know, you your your young ladies there are all driven, they're all successful, they're they're getting the job done. Dad certainly is, and I don't know, we draw strength from that. At least that's my my thought.
SPEAKER_01I couldn't agree more.
SPEAKER_00The the newsletter and everything else that you're doing, again, I use that we uh you use the term in the Marine Corps a lot, lead by example, and I think you're doing that. I've really enjoyed this. Thank you for being on the podcast today.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much for including me on this because you've had some really great people on so far. And uh I I'm I almost feel less than knowing that I'm following uh following their footsteps.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, not in any way. This this was great. I really love all your insights. Keep pumping out those new newsletters, and sir, you take care of it. You too great.
Closing Takeaways And Listener Invitation
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening to another episode of TacaStalk, and a big thank you to Wayne for sharing his thoughts and publishing informative articles such as building resilient communities, leadership and high performance, tech trends, and navigating customer service with expertise and empathy. Remember, it depends. Gather your data and analyze before you commit. I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're a decision maker with experiences and insights that can enrich our community, reach out. We'd love to hear from you. Connect on LinkedIn, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and on the website at taggistalk.com. To our audience, as always, I wish you the best. Until the next episode, take care.