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Takis Talk
David Spencer - ICC Past President - Servant leadership matters — Humility and a service mindset build trust and stronger professional communities.
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What happens when a kid who grows up lining up nails on a jobsite decides to read the International Residential Code cover to cover — just to understand the “why”? In this episode of Takis Talk, that curiosity story comes full circle with David Spencer, Immediate Past President of the International Code Council and Director of Operations at SafeBuilt, whose career spans the trades, public service, executive leadership, and private sector collaboration.
David’s journey is a masterclass in how technical expertise, humility, and servant leadership can shape not only a career but an entire profession. From working in his family’s construction business to becoming a building inspector, building official, ICC board leader, and now overseeing multi-state operations, David brings a rare 360-degree perspective on how communities are built — and protected.
At the heart of this conversation is a powerful philosophy that defines David’s approach to leadership and inspections:
“It’s not about an ego, it’s about trying to help somebody achieve their dream, their goal, while also making sure that they’re safe.”
Throughout the episode, David shares stories from his early days in construction, including how sitting at a jobsite with the 2003 IRC sparked a deeper understanding of code intent — a moment that ultimately led him into the building safety profession. His insights reinforce a core theme of the episode: great inspectors and leaders don’t just enforce rules — they collaborate, educate, and guide.
Listeners will also hear David discuss the evolving role of technology in building safety, including remote video inspections and AI-assisted processes, and why he believes innovation must always be balanced with practical field knowledge. He emphasizes that while tools can improve efficiency, the human element — judgment, collaboration, and communication — remains essential.
Another standout moment comes when David reflects on servant leadership and giving back to the profession:
“Knowledge to yourself and not sharing with anybody doesn’t benefit anybody… the more that you can share, the better we can all be together.”
The conversation also explores workforce challenges facing both the trades and the code profession, highlighting the need to attract new talent and elevate the profile of building safety careers. David points to mentorship, emerging leaders, and renewed interest in skilled trades as reasons for optimism about the future.
From international code collaboration to local inspections, David’s perspective underscores a simple but profound idea — the work of building safety professionals ultimately serves people they may never meet.
“We do what we do for the ones we will never meet.”
This episode is both inspirational and practical, offering listeners a deeper appreciation for the profession and the leadership mindset needed to move it forward. Whether you’re a building official, inspector, contractor, city leader, or someone passionate about community development, David’s story will resonate.
From Framing To ICC Leadership
SPEAKER_01You know you're sickness about your career when you voluntarily read the International Residential Code, cover to cover for fun. Today's guest didn't just skim it. He parked himself at a construction site, cracked open the 2003 RRC, and decided he was going to understand the why behind every correction he'd ever been given. That decision eventually led him all the way to serving as immediate past president of the International Code Council. Yes, from lining up nails on the job side as a kid in Washington to leading one of the most influential building safety organizations in the world, David Spencer has built a career that spans the trades, public service, executive leadership, and private sector operations. As director of operations at State Built, David now oversees teams serving jurisdictions across multiple states, working directly with municipalities to strengthen inspections, plan review, and community development services. He's chaired national committees, traveled internationally to support code development, and helped expand ICC's global footprint, all while keeping a grounded, collaborative mindset. That mindset comes through clearly in its quote from our conversation. It's not about an ego, it's about trying to help somebody achieve their dream, their goal, while also making sure they're safe. That might be the most diplomatic way anyone has ever described telling someone their framing inspection didn't pass. In this episode, we talk about growing up in a family construction business, making the leap from contractor to code official. Why inspectors should be collaborators, not code cops. The role of technology and remote inspections, workforce recruitment in the trades and building safety, and what servant leadership really looks like in our profession. David brings a rare perspective. He's been on every side of the table: contractor, inspector, building official, national board member, and now private sector partner. That gives him a 360-degree view of how communities actually get built and protected. If you care about leadership and building safety, the evolution of the code profession, or how to balance humility and authority in public service, this conversation is going to resonate with you. So get down off that ladder, step away from that plan review table, pour a cup of coffee, sit down, and let's get into it with Dave Spencer. Good morning. This morning I'm with David Spencer. Good morning, David. How are you?
SPEAKER_00I'm good. How are you, great?
SPEAKER_01Spectacular. I always like to ask, where are you today?
SPEAKER_00I am located in Covington, Washington, which is right around the greater Seattle area, just outside of that in the Pacific Northwest.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Been there a long time?
SPEAKER_00Grew up in Washington my entire life.
SPEAKER_01Nice. Okay. I have quite a few folks, neighbors that have moved up there. One of my inspectors, his family's up there. He always enjoys going up and and visiting. You always hear about the rain days in Washington and having to cope with that. I don't know. I guess I I would really enjoy the green, uh everything you get from that climate. But I want to dig into your history a little bit. I think you you're I don't know if it's a title, but would you be considered the immediate past president of ICC currently?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I am currently the immediate past president.
SPEAKER_01Are there so I I went through my local chapter, I did all the the secretaries, treasurers, so forth, president, and then my favorite was past president. So as immediate past president, are there any specific duties
Duties Of ICC Board And Global Reach
SPEAKER_01or is it simply an honorary title?
SPEAKER_00It is at the will of the current president, which would be Mike Boso. And one of the primary duties in that would be I chair the nominations committee, which is those individuals seeking election to the board of directors for the coming ABM that will be this year.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Nice. So something else that I heard at one of the conferences is that the board, I think, if I get this right, gets to do a little bit of traveling. I think that I don't know if it was at Long Beach, but I heard you folks got to go as far as Dubai. Is that accurate?
SPEAKER_00So normally most board members, what we do as part of our duties is we travel around to chapters, we give updates on ICC, we hear what local members, local chapters are facing. So that if there's certain things that we hear that they're facing, or we hear the same thing over and over. Maybe it's testing and exams or things. Those are things we can bring back to our CEO and/or have conversations in conjunction with our CEO and some of the senior staff that oversee that and helping members get the things that they need from ICC or getting some resolution salt. We also swear in chapter officers and things like that. So that's part of our duties. As for traveling to like locations of Dubai, that was something that the executive committee did do. So that would have been under my year as Secretary Treasurer. And we do travel over to do things like that to continue to build our international presence. And we were specifically there because the Dubai codes that are kind of based on the Saudi Arabian codes, which are based on the I-codes, and then it does work on things like ES reports and things like that. So that, you know, inner inner world commerce, things like that, when things come to the United States, you know that they have a certain trademark, like an ES report or something like that. Then you know then it meets certain code requirements or how it complies or how it should be utilized.
SPEAKER_01So that was something else that I was going to ask. Is when you go to these other countries, I I some of the things that I've seen is perhaps we're trying to, I don't know if it's a formal adoption, if ICC is having dialogue with places like Kenya or Georgia. So are you taking I codes and trying to adopt them for their conditions, or is it a ground-up build when we're looking at things like that?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's it's kind of unique in each scenario. Like I said, the Saudi Arabian code is based on the IBC, but it is specific to them, right? There was a time that we were in down in what we call it CARICOM, which is more of part of the World Bank, things like that. And we were down in Barbados. And the reason we were there is Barbados was interested in an energy code, specific for them. And so senior staff, CEO at the time, they spent a lot of time down there working with them. And ultimately, we developed and built for them a code specific to them for energy codes. Now, as part of that, you can have great energy efficiency, but if you don't have a good building code, you know, the building doesn't stand up even if it's energy efficient. So that became part of the conversation. So we visited with them a couple of years ago, and then we were in Belize probably, I think about a year and two years ago, and that was during my time as vice president. And the purpose of that conversation was they wanted to adopt our code as well. But if you think about it, down there they don't have snowloads. So all of the things in the IBC would be not relevant to them. So it's really more like a custom code, you know, like you would say in, you know, California adopts Title 24, you know, they do their own thing. Washington adopts the code, but they have a custom code, right? Because there's state amendments, same things with other states. So if you think of that internationally, it would be kind of that same process. They're looking for a code, they're looking for standards, but it needs to be built to their geographic climate, their geographic political things, and how things are built in those particular parts of the world.
SPEAKER_01Who is doing that development? Is that something that ICC is doing internally? Is there a private or does it go out to private agencies to do, or what's that dynamic?
SPEAKER_00That is actually done by senior staff. Some key members of that would be Mark Johnson, who is under CEO John Belsick, our CEO, some others that are involved in it. Some of our what we call GR reps, governmental reps that work for ICC. They have certain regions both within the U.S. and outside the U.S. So it is a kind of, you know, could start with a conversation. It could start with a
Adapting I-Codes For Other Countries
SPEAKER_00reach out of that kind of stuff. It can come in a multitude of ways. Sometimes it comes through Judy Sekresky, Brian Koker, who work for ICC, that are do a lot of the international stuff. They're involved in things over in over in East, what I'd say east of the world. They go to COP. I can never remember what COP stands for, but it is kind of a climate pledge type thing. But out of those conversations, like I said, there may be, they may be seeking resources in how to be more energy efficient or things like that. But that that maybe is one part of the conversation. Latin America is really looking at better fire codes, better understanding of fire dynamics and fire science. So that becomes a conversation. So those come from a multitude of angles and I guess different avenues through different people within ICC. And then obviously John Belsick is our CEO, then the senior management, they have a conversation about what is that? What does that mean? How could ICC assist in that? What does it mean to ICC? What does it mean to them? And that is handled by John Belsick, who is our CEO, runs the day-to-day.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's uh it's quite a process. And but you know, what's very encouraging is I'm seeing ICC is so originally we were national, now we're truly international. I say we. But so what you were mentioning earlier about products coming in from overseas, that's very helpful to us. I know that when we go out, we do inspections, we're looking for listings. And back in my day, when I was contracting, you went to the local supply house, you got whatever it was. Now people are getting things off of Amazon and and whatever. And, you know, it's who is that listed through? Is there a listing at all? And so this is very crucial for us. It really takes a lot of the heavy lifting for us when we go out and actually do the inspections.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it really it really does, because you know, when you know when you're looking at it, you're right, there's products that come from all over the world, right? E-commerce comes from everywhere. And when somebody gets something and they put it in, whether it be a homeowner or a contractor, and we come out as that inspector, there's an expectation that they think that they've done it right. And when we're kind of saying, well, that's not right, they kind of want to understand why, right? They bought something, they were told it was right, or they assumed it was right. And I think it kind of becomes our responsibility to help them understand why. And so those evaluation reports and things of that nature help us be able to explain the why behind why we're asking what we're asking for.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Hey, I want to go way back. I want to go back to the beginning. So everything that I've read about you is you got started in the family business as a young man, a teenager. I think your dad was a contractor.
SPEAKER_00Yes, my dad started his contracting business when I was five years old. So my kind of internal joke to most people is I was literally born into the construction industry.
SPEAKER_01How soon were you on the job site?
SPEAKER_00Well, before I was old enough to remember, my my mother and my father have shown me pictures, you know, as I got older of my dad, you know, lining up nails on subfloor, you know, in the early 70s, and my dad giving me a hammer, you know. So it was back in the day before nail guns. That was earliest on the job site. You know, sometimes my dad would be working late to get projects done. My mom would make dinner. We'd go have dinner with him on, you know, the table made of saw horses and a piece of plywood. So pretty early, but I'd actually didn't start what I would say working for him until I was probably around 14, you know, and then it was, you know, summers, maybe a couple days here and there after school. You know, my dad wanted me to learn the responsibility of earning something, good work, you know, having money. So then he made me kind of save half of everything. And so then as I got it to be around 16, 17 years old, then that kind of became my summer job was working for my dad's construction company and doing that stuff. And it just led to kind of a career to my mid-30s.
SPEAKER_01Was that kind of these what I'm envisioning is kind of what I was doing? Small remodeling company to start, and you were kind of keeping everything under one roof. You're kind of a jack of all trades. Did you guys do all trades or were you the traditional kind of project manager where you subbed everything out?
SPEAKER_00No, we at points in our my dad's career in his construction company, we did all kinds of things as you, you know, as his business grew and he learned things, right? You learned that paying the plumber is a little more efficient than you being the plumber. You can do it. But the amount of trips you go to the store or whatever you need. We also did certain things in electrical because, in like residential in Washington, homeowners can do their own. So my dad would build his own houses. We would do that, a couple opportunities to work with electricians. There was a thought process of me going to be an electrician at some point in my career, but that's ultimately stayed with the family business. He bought sub-businesses such as gutter companies and things like that. So I ran those kinds of businesses for him independently while still working for the construction company. And so it went from a variety of everything. So I have actually, in a single-family house scenario, done every step of every part of the process, including running equipment, all of that kind of stuff. And then we did some light and commercial type things. And we worked mostly in Washington, but we did build home or two in Oregon. Uh, we've done some work periodically in Idaho over his career.
SPEAKER_01You have a favorite trade?
SPEAKER_00I really like framing. And the reason is I think in framing, you can start out a day and you can finish a day and you can stand there and you can see your work. Instantly, you can see your work. It's very gratifying because things happen quickly and that kind of stuff. My dad's favorite thing to do is kitchens and things like that. He really likes the design part of those kinds of things. And our least favorite job is concrete. It takes a lot of effort and there's a lot of importance that goes into it. And then you put a house on it and bury it, and nobody seems to notice.
SPEAKER_01I agree with all that. Framing is my favorite as well. Everything you said, very gratifying. You walk away and it looks like you've done something, and sometimes it could be deceiving because in the grand scheme of things, a percentage of the project, it may look like a profound amount, but it isn't really. But I'm that structure guy. I started as a framer and then tried a little
Code Reports, E‑Commerce, And Inspector Clarity
SPEAKER_01bit of the finish work and just didn't work out for me. I maybe it wasn't the patience. Maybe I just I'm a function over form guy. I don't know. But yeah, I agree with the framing. Were you ever an independent contractor?
SPEAKER_00No, I was not an independent contractor, worked in the family business, like I said, and then my dad bought some other businesses, like I got her company, and I ran that for him. But I did not go out on my own in independent contracting. There was a thought process in that in my early 30s of should I go out on my own? Should I continue the family business? But ultimately that decision led to the code official kind of process in my career.
SPEAKER_01My family, my kids mock me sometimes. We'll be driving along and I'll point out a building. You know, I did such and such on that, or I built that over there. And, you know, at some point it gets kind of old to tell me to shut up. But you grew up in that area. Do you have those kinds of moments?
SPEAKER_00I do have those kinds of moments. Uh, most of our work was in eastern Washington, which is interesting. It's a different climate than western Washington, where the rain, there's a lot less rain, a lot more sunshine. But yes, there, I would tell my kids that the entire time growing up. Hey, I did that, I did that, went on that. And I can still go by a road and go, hey, I remember down that road and around that corner, can't remember the address. Yeah, that's where we built that house. That's where we did that awesome remodel. Yeah. So yeah, they get tired of hearing it. But they're in their 30s now, so they're over it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Same exact same conversation. So I guess it's a contractor kind of specific thing. So at some point, I think you you mentioned your early 30s, you make the transition to public sector and codes. How what was how did that happen? That's a little bit of a leap. I know in my instance, it was just a whole lifestyle changes and a lot of turmoil going on. What was your process?
SPEAKER_00My process was as I got into my late 20s, early 30s, it was really about I wanted to understand more about why I was being told to do this certain thing. In this certain situation, this mechanical exhaust is venting is not right, or this is not right, or so on and so forth. So it always intrigued me. And you know, as a young man, you kind of have this, or at least I had this thought process. I'm not quite sure that I believe what they're telling me. You know, are they making this up? And so I started to kind of get an understanding of what it meant. And then I transitioned to another job, which was it was still construction related, but it was kind of a gap between the two. And it was working for an irrigation company, which, you know, ditch line canals, concrete, large, large canals. And I went to work for them as a construction inspector or construction guy, ran heavy equipment and did concrete, did all kinds of things for them. And there was an opportunity to do a particular job for them, and the details are irrelevant, but I picked that job because the job paid, you know, $1.50 more an hour and it required you to be stationary. And so I took it as the opportunity. And since you had to be in stationary in one place and you had to watch certain things but not go anywhere, I took the 2003 IRC, because I
Family Business And Learning Every Trade
SPEAKER_00had to sit there for four to eight hours, depending on the particular thing, and read the entire book. And part of that was because I had applied for a couple of jobs, you know, and you see in job descriptions they say they want this certification, which I didn't really understand what that meant at the time, or experience it's equal to. Well, I found that while I had all this experience in construction, other people were getting these particular jobs. And I came to realize that things like an ICC certification, even though I didn't know what they meant, were kind of a critical component in getting it because that was within the job description, desired qualifications. So I kind of went about that process. And in the meantime, it applied for a job in a city known as the city of Shilland, which is in eastern Washington, about 62 miles from where I'd lived. And I applied. And a building official who I'm still in contact with today, that would have been early 2006, they took a chance and hired me as a building inspector, code enforcement officer.
SPEAKER_01You know what dumbfounds me is we'll go out and do inspections. And contractors and very successful contractors don't know what a code book looks like. And I know that when I was contracting, every so I started out as a general contractor. I went into specialties, I was an HVAC contractor, I had that mechanical code book. I could tell you why something was going to happen, and I was not going to fail an inspection. And so you also mentioned something about I don't believe you when you're telling me. There are some inspectors, you know, that really don't have a handle on what they're what they're calling. And having that background, having that code book, and having your own knowledge pays off because I don't know, I have seen inspectors make a call that's costing someone, and it really was a bad call. So I I echo everything you said. I I I had to learn the codes. I and then it was a natural natural transition after the fact. But I I agree with everything you said. I have a question though in Washington. So I've spoken to contractors that do work in other parts of the country, and some folks will tell me that they'll draw a permit and a jurisdiction will come out and just do a final. Do you folks in Washington do the same thing, or is it kind of like California that you're doing it in phases as the project progresses?
SPEAKER_00We would do it in phases. I would say I would say that you know, the it's our state law says it's very specifically, shall be enforced in all cities and counties. And it also expands and says, should a city or county not be able to, they shall contract with another city, county, or third party, basically. I don't know the word says third party, contract agency to enforce the code. So I would find that pretty unique. I'm not saying that there maybe hasn't been something that hasn't been just a final. I would say maybe let's talk about a deck, right? If you have a deck that's elevated that you could see, you could probably show up for the pilings, right? Footing foundation part, but then you're not going to ever come back until a final. You could do the framing and the final at the same time because you could walk underneath and see and you could write a correction if you needed to, or something like that. So I could see in some of those instances, maybe like that a pole barn, right? You'd show up for the footings, the holes, the posts being in it. You can do the framing from the inside if it wasn't covered. So I could see how maybe they've done it for efficiency purposes, for getting there, or logistic purposes. When I was the building official for Shillan County, which is an interesting dynamic. There is a little town known as Stehekan, and no one would ever know where that is, except for it is at the far end of the Lake of Shillan, which I believe is 67 miles long. And the only way to get to the little town of Stehekan, which was an old gold mine, is by boat or float plane. And so as the building official there, I'm not going to send an inspector on a four-hour boat ride or take a plane to go see certain things. So we talked about how to do certain inspection reports, certain, you know, photographic evidence, so on and so forth to do those kinds of things or get some engineer to sign off on things. So you got to find a solution to a unique problem, is what I would say sometimes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I I agree with that. The instance, the conversation that I had with a particular contractor was building a hotel. And they were building a hotel in Livermore. They were surprised that I think that one was three-story or was it four, but whatever. And you know, we were there all day, every day. And he's telling me how we built this the same floor plan in this other state. We pulled the permit and then they just came out for a final, which just blew my mind. I didn't I don't know if he was lying or telling me the truth, but I found that so foreign it was ridiculous.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, it's if you I you know you get into states like Idaho and Montana. State of Idaho specifically says in their state law that unless you have a building department, then you're not required to enforce the building code. And then the state is responsible for only plumbing and electrical. And Montana in single family outside of a jurisdiction in the greater part of Montana, you basically need an electrical and a plumbing permit, and you're not necessarily required to do certain things. So it really depends on state by state, what the state statute is, and then the requirements for getting inspections or getting required building codes.
SPEAKER_01So I asked earlier, favorite trade, favorite inspection. Is there anything you like to do more than others?
SPEAKER_00I would actually say, hey, I like framing inspections. It's like I said, it's a it's something that I really liked growing up, but it is also a very critical component, right? It is the it is the bones of the structure of your home. Missing a beam, missing a load bearing point, a critical connection. Those all get covered up. And if you don't have those critical components, you can have something going on with somebody's home. And without, you know, doing some destructive testing or opening up things, you really don't know why certain things are
Choosing Codes Over Contracting
SPEAKER_00happening. And so I that's kind of my favorite inspection. There's a lot of detail that goes into it. It's critical to look at engineering details. Did somebody follow the engineering detail, the architectural design, so on and so forth. So I'd say that's probably my favorite inspection.
SPEAKER_01I agree also. It's the structural for me and the accessibility. When training inspectors, where do you start? What do you think is the most important to have as the foundation?
SPEAKER_00A good attitude, a positive mindset.
SPEAKER_01Look at you. Yep. From the technical perspective, I want to get back to that, but from the technical perspective, what would what would you try to teach your inspectors first?
SPEAKER_00To continue to look at the code book and try to understand what is the intent of the code? What is the code intending to apply to the life safety component of what you're doing or the structural component? Because as growing up in it, as you said in construction, there are a million ways to do different things. And just because something you haven't seen before that somebody is doing doesn't mean that it's not code compliant or doesn't mean that it's not intended to meet the code. There could be a multitude of reasons why they're doing it. Maybe it's a new technology, maybe it's something that you didn't grow up in. So I've heard at the very beginning of my career, I heard one person say people from the trades are the best inspectors. I've also heard the other flip side, they're the worst inspectors. And sometimes I think where the worst inspector comes from is they tend to have a perceived idea of the way something should be done, code compliant, because that's what they did or they were used to being looked at or trained. And so when you become an inspector, I want you to use that knowledge and that experience, but I also want you to look at the code and continue to try and grow to understand the code and understand that there can be multiple ways to the end goal.
SPEAKER_01We have a parallel thought line there. So I tell my inspectors it's not an inspection, it's a collaboration. And also the whole thing of the intent, right? You sometimes you get so deep in the weeds and you're you're reading the text, and it but it says this, but and then you try to get to the bottom line. What are we trying to achieve? And so I agree with that. And our current community development director, Brent Smith, he was our CBO, and he had said, I don't want you to be code cops. I want you to look at what's the intent, not the letter. And so try to embrace that and and move forward with that. So I think that's very important. You're not a code cop, it's not there of how you're going to jam somebody up, but how you can collaborate and make this thing better and move forward.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think a realization that while as an inspector, a permit person when it's coming in, a plans examiner, those kinds of things, it's another task and another duty and a job and what you do in your daily function. But having a humble understanding of that particular individual that you're interacting with, it's probably one of the most important things going on in their life right now. They have a financial impact to it, they have a personal attachment to it, a pride part of thing to it. A single family home is typically for most Americans the largest purchase they will ever make in their life. So those kinds of things are really key. And if you have that understanding, you walk in with a humble understanding. And yes, you need code compliance, but how do you go about trying to explain code compliance and the importance why?
SPEAKER_01I've read a couple of notes here and there about you. And it seems, and correct me if I'm wrong, you are a very strong proponent of technology and using it to advance codes, building safety. What are a couple of the latest things in terms of tech that are out there that you feel we should be adopting? Everybody says the AI thing. I don't know if that's it. We've seen some other hardware in the field. What do you see up and coming that you like to utilize or hope that it gets developed further?
SPEAKER_00Well, with AI, I think there's probably some efficiencies in there. It's always unique. There was early on in, you know, company I work with now, Safe Built, there was some conversations around AI and could it do some simplified plan reviews. I remember in a conversation, I wasn't in-depth in the process of it, but at some of that outcastide conversation, is there's within architect, you know, CAD programs, there's about four or five different designs of toilets and about four or five of mechanical exhaust. And so you can figure that part out and the computer can figure that out, but at least in the early stages, then if the architect inadvertently put the exhaust fan over the toilet, AI didn't know what to do with it because it was confused, right? It didn't make sense to it. So I think there's probably some things, you know, takeoffs of rooms to give you occupancy size, uh, numbers, those kinds of things. I think those are some pretty efficient things. I've seen those. One of the things that we're doing now and works really, really well, and I think it's more of about an efficiency for individuals, for inspectors, all of that kind of thing, is remote video inspections, right? If you're doing some, let's say you have a correction for a contractor, he's ready to go and he's missed a couple of straps or something like that, and that's your correction notice. And depending on the size of your jurisdiction or county, the effort for you to get back there, for them to be delayed by a day or something like that, uh, is a huge expense to everyone on both sides. And so if they could put those in and you could connect to them through remote video type thing, and the things that's different now than doing it on FaceTime or, you know, Google, whatever, a lot of these platforms have a geotab location. Those, and you can do pointers on your side, they can do pointers on their side. You can you can accomplish a lot of things. And so I think that is something that will provide efficiencies for jurisdictions. Obviously, if you look at Clark County, Washington down there, there was a guy, Jim Murr was his name, and he was on NFPA in some programs with ACC about video inspections. And so for years, they do not do a
Inspection Phases And Remote Constraints
SPEAKER_00certain list, they do a certain list, and they only do those as remote video inspections. And they have for years, he was kind of a pioneer in it.
SPEAKER_01So when you're talking about the video inspection, are you talking about doing an initial first in-person and then doing the corrections as a video or the whole thing as a video?
SPEAKER_00I think in something like that kind of stuff, a framing or whatever, you're always going to do that. And maybe it was a minor correction. I think some simple things that you could do would be, you know, maybe a some sort of a shed needs a permit or something. Could you do that? A like for like water replacement, you know, for a water heater, a HVAC or an outdoor AC heat pump unit, you know, those kinds of things. You can usually typically do those through some sort of remote video inspections and so some more simpler projects. You're not going to do them in complicated projects. There's too much to miss.
SPEAKER_01Right. We came across, we stumbled up across a vendor. They're trying to, I don't know, find a jurisdiction so they can start to develop their product. And in essence, they come out, they have this device that'll do a 360-degree video scan. I'm not exactly sure if it's a photograph, what it does, and it will do the inspection. My question there is if you have to have a person come out and place this device and take the video and so forth, isn't it just as easy to send a person out there to do this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's, you know, and so with the company that I work for now, it depends on state to state, right? I have an inspector that can do the video inspection. Sometimes we do it with the contractor, sometimes we do it with the homeowner. In other states, based on state laws or something like that, they may require a particular qualified inspector. So let's use an example. Let's say that the plumbing guy, there needs to be a plumbing inspection and he's there and he's doing it, but there needs to be some sort of a small electrical inspection. Well, if that if that plumbing guy who's certified is is on site already and he can connect with someone who is qualified that meets the state law requirements or the jurisdiction's requirements for the electrical, if he can connect with that electrical person and do the remote of the remote video inspection, and that electrical guy's on the other end, he can still see it. You still have that qualified person, and you also have that liaison between. So it's, I think it's just really a balance, and it's really about maybe what particular policies you have in place, how you, you know, what is your criteria limiting certain things, and then and then setting expectations, right? So that the people in your community would know what are those expectations.
SPEAKER_01You seem to be very forward-thinking and accepting of innovation and new technologies. I had uh Lee Butler on the podcast, he's a community development director for Santa Cruz, and they here in California, there's something called arena where you have to provide so many affordable housing units. And one of the things that they found is by going to they initially they wanted to put up this project that was 150 feet tall. They ended up compromising at an 85-foot high, and one of the things he mentioned was cost effective. So they did a podium construction and they did a traditional podium, concrete with wood frame above. But there's also now, well, there has been for a little bit, wooden podiums. Do you have any experience with that? Do you do you have an opinion?
SPEAKER_00You know, I don't necessarily have an opinion. I mean, you know, there's you know, cross-laminated timber or as we call it CLT in the code now, right? So you can go, you can build a skyscraper out of wood, you know, up to a certain level. I think, like I said, there's multiple ways I think you can get there. You know, I'm used to uh calling a podium building with something over it. We call it a five over two, you know, it's you know, it's type two construction below and it's type five above. You know, I mean that's a pretty common practice up here, so that you have that retail space down below, or you have that parking garage, you know, with a you know occupancy of residential mixed use on top of it, things like that. So I I think it can be done both ways. What has always intrigued me is the ability to see things in different ways, right? How somebody designs it and how does an engineer calculate it out and those kinds of things. I've seen everything from a podium building with the original thought processes was to do uh modular construction over it, it was basically pods all put together. We did the review with the company I work for, the people that work with me. Ultimately, that project didn't come to be, but it was a very, very unique project because it took collaboration of us working with the jurisdiction while also working with the state, because the state had kind of control of the modular. So it was this unique scenario put together with a bunch of agencies that had to make it work.
SPEAKER_01How did you like that? I've seen a couple of those container type buildings. I at first I was put off by it, but now I've kind of warmed up to it. I think it's kind of neat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think modular construction has a unique space or has has some ability. I mean, there's what has happened in modular construction, you know, what people are used to, right? They're used to a what we call a factory assembled structure, right? It is that part of a home that travels down in these various components. But now they can put the parts together and they can do it in an environment. You know, rain doesn't have a factor, you know, weather, you can do it. It's controlled environment. The I guess what I see some of the limitations that you have is, you know, getting something transported to the location. You have road restrictions, height restrictions, you know, bridges, things, electrical power grids, all those kinds of things play a role, which then I guess limits their ability outside of what they could possibly do. But I find it a very, very unique thing and I find it interesting. And I think it's going to become more and more part of the mainstream of what we do.
Why Framing Inspections Matter Most
SPEAKER_00Some of the larger builders, you know, they their lumber packages are detailed right down to the very stick of the two by four. You know, you see them and they put them together, and they're they're very good at what they do. It brings with the cost savings, efficiency, time to build to get the home sold. So I think it has a part in our world for as far as I can see into the future.
SPEAKER_01I'm going to ask you a couple of things that are, I don't know, I guess maybe political. Here in California and in Livermore, uh, we've got a couple of new developments going up, and they're zero gas on property. They're all electric, and we're also pushing PV very hard. How do you feel about the zero gas?
SPEAKER_00To be honest with you, I I'm neutral on it. I don't take a political stance. I I grew up in a part of Washington, in eastern Washington, which is all electric. And that is based upon gas is not only not available, but due to the Columbia River, where I grew up, there's a couple dams that are hydroelectric dams, which were which are publicly owned utilities. So everything's electric. And then I now live in western Washington, where half of my home is done by gas and half of my home is done by electricity, right? My furnace and my water heater are done by gas. I think they both have a place. I think it really depends on where it is. It is important that we try to find ways to be efficient. Washington is one of those states as well where our energy code is driven by a mandate to be, I believe it's 65% more restrictive than the 2020 or the 2020 six energy code, and we are getting there. I've, in my opinion, I think that early on we took what I call the low-hanging fruit, the insulation values, the window values, those things, those were the easy things to address. And now, if we as a state are going to continue to move towards that goal, it we now have to do the harder work, which is more heat pumps, more efficient, you know, furnaces, solar, you know, as part of your home. But there's also an interesting thought out there that should solar on somebody's home, is that a is that just a benefit to them, or is that a benefit to all? And is a benefit at all a taxing of the individual? So there's all kinds of concepts out there. I I'm kind of neutral on it. I think we should try to do as the best that we can to make make the place a better place for people in front of us, and hopefully we do the right choices.
SPEAKER_01It's an interesting perspective. I am a big proponent of PV. We have a lot of warehouses here in Livermore. We have the Gillig Buzz Plant, has got, they're generating three megawatts on their roof. I think that's a great way of doing it. I take the long way home, we're to and from work, and I go over the hills through the cow fields, the cow farms, and Pacific Gas and Electric is our power supplier here. And they just picked up, I think it's either five or seven hundred acres, and they're putting up a solar farm. And there are these green pastures that are now glass, plastic, and aluminum. And I have to say that I'm a little bit upset. I see it on a warehouse, but when you do that, I don't know. I don't I am still processing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know, over here, there's not so many solar farms right now, but there's a lot of wind generation type farms. They're pretty prevalent as you get over the Cascade Mountains. And they're they're just part of the landscape now. But, you know, there's both sides of the fence to that as well. People want them, but some people don't want them in their backyard, you know, but they want them, but they don't want them in their backyard. So it's always one of those things, go back to contracting days growing up in a business. Sometimes there's an open space of property that belongs to someone that they choose to develop in a certain way. And it's always been interesting to me that neighbors
Training Inspectors On Intent Not Habit
SPEAKER_00become upset about that or don't like it. But whether the view that they've enjoyed has been a benefit across somebody else's property, they believe that that belongs to them somehow. And it's it's this unique thing in society that has always intrigued me. People are funny.
SPEAKER_01I want to touch on recruitment, both in the trades and for ICC and for code. Uh code enforcement to me means something else. It's but inspection, plan review, that sort of thing. I was at the ICC Leadership Academy a couple of years back. One of the statements was that we're going to be experiencing a large number of vacancies within ICC, and we're also struggling with vacancies in the skilled trades. Having been around for a little bit, what's the solution? How do we get people involved and interested in these jobs?
SPEAKER_00Well, I know there was a lady that was at this year's ABM that talked about generational things, and a realization that the baby boomer generation was a large generation, but then the other generations in between, up until the, I'm trying to remember the right generations, but it'd be basically kind of my son's generation, which is the next one, the millennials, right? They're the next one. So a realization that they're really overall is a lot. There's this gap in the amount of people available in the workforce, right? So, and now it will ramp back up. But one of the one individual I follow is a guy named Mike Rowe, Dirty Jobs. I, you know, used to watch dirty jobs back in the day, like the guy, you know, actually, actually, as a uh when I worked at the irrigation district, had a brainstorm idea that I'd invite him to see what it is that to get water to farmers in a, you know, at some point never came to be. But, you know, he really advocates being in the trades now. And I just think that, you know, I had shop class, I had those kinds of things. I know, and and I'm not speaking to politics, but that kind of went away as kind of a culture thing. And I think there it just there's a missing gap in there. And so There's a million ways to get to the end goal. Same in this. I think there are people that would be are really good in the traits and getting them interested in using their hands and using their brains and using their skills that may either move on to being a code official or may never be a code official, may create a great business that creates jobs for other people, right? That kind of stuff because they created their own business. So I think that kind of thing in the trades is going to be critically important. I think that you're kind of seeing a culture shift now that people are realizing for whatever reason the amount of debt for school is not necessarily what they want to do anymore. And so I think you're seeing people drawn back to various trades because you can make a really good living. You can raise a family on that. You can have a good life at that. And some of those people turn into code officials. I'm also seeing now with something was really kind of it was born kind of before, and it was a thought process in ICC and the board of directors, but it was really brought forward and made streamlined by Cashel Chevy, which was, you know, the raising the profile, the emerging leaders, membership council. And what I'm seeing more and more now, just in my time and involvement with ICC, is there are younger and younger code officials coming all the time. And they are raising up to levels of building official community development directors that at a at a much younger age. And I think that they're they're hungry. I think that we need to embrace that. We need to, we needed to for a long, long time. And I think we'll get there. It's just not going to be a problem that's going to fix itself overnight.
SPEAKER_01I agree with you. I think presentation is part of it. I spoke with a young man. He was planning to be an accountant and he looked at the debt, the school, the all that kind of stuff. And at the time, I forget he was doing some blue-collar job and he got sucked into being an electrician. And he was so happy that he went down that path because he didn't have the debt. He was making good money, he had a good living, and he felt very comfortable in what he was doing. So I uh there is that shift. You know, before it was you got to go to college, and now it's perhaps this other path, this blue-collar, the trades may actually be a better way to go. And you also mentioned the debt, you know, you don't have four years of college or whatever else that you have to pay off. And then I also noticed that in the public sector, we don't do as good a job as communicating the compensation. And w I was trying to recruit a superintendent to come on as an inspector, and his whole thing was, well, it's going to be a huge pay cut. But at the end of the day, when you looked at the total compensation with all the other things that we contribute, it really wasn't. It was actually a bonus for him, but we just did a poor job at communicating what the job value was.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's it's about an explanation process, right? And and it's really, I think it comes down to it gets down to the individual sometimes. What is their life work balance? What's important to them in their life? Is it sometimes
Practical Tech: Remote Video Inspections
SPEAKER_00benefits that go with it? You know, that you can spend time with family. Do they have some sort of a household thing where they need to care for somebody? You know, I mean, as, you know, like I said, the the parents are getting older and older, and there's a lot of them. And so some of us are can be in these situations where, you know, owning your own business, that's a lot of work sometimes for a lot of people, right? And so if you need to care for a family member, does being in the public sector offer some ability for not as much that you have to rely on on running a business that then gives you a little of that freedom and your and your life work balance? So I think it just depends on where people are in their life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great example. I was uh when I was contracting, I remember we had gone to Maui. The family was excited about this trip, all that kind of good stuff. I was getting up at five in the morning to go down to the business office. This was before email and so forth, you know, checking faxes, making phone calls, because you had that responsibility, right? And in my current position, certainly there are responsibilities. Sometimes I'm getting calls out in the middle of the night to respond to something with fire or PD, but there isn't that level of stress 24-7. Definitely a better life balanced position. I wanted to take a minute and jump into Safe Belt. Your current role with SafeBuilt is what?
SPEAKER_00I am a director of operations for SafeBuild. And so I was gonna say, you're gonna ask me, what is that? What I do is I I work for them and I see an area of the country for them, a region of the country for them in multiple states. And my responsibility is working with the municipalities that have contracted with SafeBuilt. And we provide, you know, services for jurisdictions, public agencies, developers throughout the country. So within my area, my region of responsibility, I have a staff of about 20-some people, plans examiners, inspectors, and they're out, you know, the inspectors are out every day doing their job. They have managers, and then I we have plans examiners that work remotely, and they're doing plan reviews for multiple jurisdictions. And so my part is to work with the other side of our company, which is the sales side. So we talk with jurisdictions that are interested in services and things like that. And then I oversee our day-to-day operations, making sure we're meeting our expectations, our contractual things with jurisdictions, you know, all of that coordination, right down to making sure that their invoice is correct.
SPEAKER_01So you're constantly jumping to the other side of the table. You were in construction, jumped to the other side, became building inspector, building official. Now you're going private sector and you're doing that same transition. So you always have a perspective into your your counterpart there, right? You you're dealing with jurisdictions now, you've been in those shoes, you know what they're looking for and what they need. So almost kind of reverse engineering that thing. I I like that.
SPEAKER_00It is. I all sides of the table I've been on.
SPEAKER_01I've gone to Safe Build's website and I was surprised at first. There are so the thought leadership on the website. There's some great articles there. And uh there was something about Fort Myers and the recovery. So we had Dwayne Snell from Texas on, and he was originally from Louisiana. He was there during Katrina, and just listening to him describe that was it was difficult. So you folks were involved with Fort Myers. Were you involved with that at all?
SPEAKER_00I wasn't specifically involved in that part of it. You know, when the fires came through and there was massive devastation, yes, there are people within St. Belt that were part of that and are in those jurisdictions. Part of my role, I guess, would be in that is our plan review team does do plan reviews, you know, for some of those jurisdictions as part of our larger region. So in helping those people, and yeah, I'm talking with my counterpart, another director of operations that's in Colorado, and that's his part. But we are, we communicate rather regularly and our teams cross-pollinate in doing that. But it's always key. We both have the same mindset. It's kind of a company mindset. We are your, we're their partner, we are there to assist. What is the need that you are looking for from us? How can we help you with that need? How can we help with your recovery? Help, how can we help with you being efficient? How can we help you with permitting timelines, expectations, all of those kinds of things? So that's kind of what we do. We are kind of their community development partner.
SPEAKER_01So Safe Built is national, you're across country.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't have the exact number, but I believe we have different things in about 44 states. And uh, you know, it's well above well over 1,500 employees, I think, total within the within the company overall. That that's just a number that I remember in my head. Don't know that that's accurate.
SPEAKER_01So when you folks contract, it's a long-term kind of a thing. It would be possibly on a per project or perhaps an annual basis. It's not a short-term temp kind of a thing.
SPEAKER_00It's everything from short-term to long-term. We have long-standing clients. I I have jurisdictions that I've worked for for five years or longer. Sometimes it's just a short need. What is that short need? Had a call recently about a jurisdiction that based on the flooding just needed somebody to jump, you know, uh speaking metaphorically, jump in the boat and help bail water. You know, so we we meet with them, we try to understand what it is that need and can we service that need? And if we can, how do we go about doing that?
SPEAKER_01And you are in California, are you not?
SPEAKER_00No, I'm not in California. Well, yes, yes, we are in California. We do have companies that are part of Safe Built in California. Yes, we do.
SPEAKER_01I've heard you like to lead with a positive perspective.
SPEAKER_00Tell me about that. You know, maybe I just as you know, people that know me know that I I lead with a positive mindset. My meta guy was as I came into my presidency. His name is give me just a second, because I I don't want to get it wrong. But his name is John Gucci Foley. He was a part of the Blue Angels, and he met with us and he really talked to us about some things, and it's really stuck with me. And it's, you know, the called the glad to be here mindset, and is really about a mindset of, you know, seeing the world through a lens of gratitude, purpose, passion, you know, and being present, right? And so that was a conversation I had with the board of directors when I came in as ACC, a mutual respect of each other, a mutual understanding of each other, and working together towards the collective whole. And so that's a that's a critical thing, you know. And I
Podiums, CLT, And Modular Paths
SPEAKER_00kind of, you know, you and I talked about the you make sure that your servant's towel is bigger than your ego. I always try to do everything that I do, is that my job is to try and help someone understand, get to the goal that they're trying to achieve. Yes, it is critical for code compliance. I don't like the word code enforcement either. Enforcement has this connotation to it. It's like, you know, this, you know, pushing thing. It's about working towards compliance and being respectful of people and understanding, but trying to get there in a respectful manner. It's it's not about an ego, it's about trying to help somebody achieve their dream, their goal while also making sure that they're safe.
SPEAKER_01So something I want to make sure I put out there, as I mentioned earlier that I was part of our local chapter, I've looked at everything that you've done and the amount of volunteering and dedication and time. And for me, it's mind-boggling because I don't know that I could have could have done that. I don't know that I could have put that much time and effort into something on a volunteer basis. And what I have to say is ICC is an extremely valuable, if not irreplaceable, entity within our construction community. And I I want to say thank you to you, specifically and to folks like you. I also I appreciate uh companies like SafeBuilt. We use some private sector partners, and without them, it wouldn't work. So I appreciate all that. I appreciate you and what you've done for ICC. And maybe we'll cross paths with SafeBuilt.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe maybe you possibly will. And you know, and I have to say, and I truly mean this, is that it's been an honor to serve. I look at it as it's giving back to the industry, the community, sharing that knowledge, you know, goes back to the I always thought that I wasn't quite sure they were telling me the truth. So my goal is always to be to give back as much as I can from the knowledge that I've shared, because knowledge to yourself and not sharing with anybody doesn't benefit anybody. The more that you can share, the better we can all be together, because we all want the same goal. We all want people to be safe. We want people to feel secure in their homes, their buildings, wherever they may be. And so if we're sharing that collective knowledge, but at least my perspective on the world is that it can make the world a better place.
SPEAKER_01That's a beautiful thought. And with that, I want to say thank you for being on the podcast, David. This was special for me because this is my world. And uh, president of ICC, again, big deal for me. And after having this conversation, you've kind of lived up to the hype in terms of the technical and just the personal. So I wanted to say thank you.
SPEAKER_00Well, thanks for having me, Greg. It's really truly an honor to be here. And anything to share with people that maybe inspires people, you know, there's been a lot of people that inspired me in my life. So any way that I could maybe inspire someone would that you never hear about. Same that I said at the ABM, we do what we do for the ones we will never meet.
SPEAKER_01Well, if you ever doubted that reading the IRC cover to cover could change your life, now you know. From the kid on the job site to becoming the immediate past president of the International Code Council to overseeing operations across multiple states as director of operations at SafeBuilt, Dave Spencer has officially done it all. And somehow, he still says it's been an honor to serve. I also love this line from today's episode. It's not about an ego, it's about trying to help somebody achieve their dreams, their goal, while also making sure that they're safe. That might be the most polite way anyone has ever described building inspections. David has chaired national committees, represented ICC internationally, yes, including global code collaborations, that was tough to say, helped expand the council's international footprint, mentored emerging leaders, and continues to shape building safety policy and operations across the country through Safe Built. And yet, at its core, he's still a framer who likes to stand back at the end of the day and see what got built. That's the kind of leadership our profession and most organizations need. Service first, collaborative, forward-thinking, and just humble enough to say, we do what we do for the ones we will never meet. David, thank you for your leadership, your positivity, and for proving that you can move forward from job sites to city hall to international boardrooms without ever losing your servant's towel. And to everyone listening, if you enjoyed the podcast, okay, so the pitch. Connect with me or the podcast. I'd love to get your insights and your feedback. More important to me, however, is your reach out to David. Let him know how he did. Give him that digital high five. LinkedIn is a great platform for that. In any event, I wish you all the best. Take care until the next one.