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Building Safety Leadership with Robert Gary: ICC, IAPMO, Los Gatos, Code Development, Housing, and the Future of Building Officials
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In this episode, we sit down with Robert Gray, Building Official for the Town of Los Gatos, for a wide-ranging conversation about building safety leadership, code development, local government, housing challenges, professional service, and the importance of getting involved in the organizations that shape our industry.
Robert is one of those people who seems to be everywhere that matters. Whether it is local ICC chapter work, IAPMO involvement, code hearings, professional development events, or conversations about the future of building departments, Robert continues to show up and contribute. His career reflects the kind of servant leadership that the building safety profession needs more of: steady, thoughtful, committed, and focused on helping the next generation succeed.
The conversation begins with Robert’s involvement in the ICC Peninsula Chapter and his leadership journey through local chapter work. Like many inspectors and building officials, Robert initially assumed that some of these professional organizations were mainly for building officials. Over time, through encouragement from mentors and colleagues, he became more involved, eventually serving in leadership roles and helping guide the direction of local code organizations. His story is a reminder that inspectors, permit technicians, plans examiners, code compliance officers, and building officials all have a place in these organizations—and that the future of the profession depends on people being willing to raise their hand and participate.
Robert also discusses his work with both ICC and IAPMO, the value of collaboration between different code organizations, and the reality that code officials in California often have to work across multiple systems, standards, and agencies. The episode touches on the challenges of digital code access, the relationship between ICC, IAPMO, NFPA, and other code bodies, and why local collaboration is so important even when national organizations may operate in separate lanes.
A major part of the discussion focuses on Los Gatos, a unique community in the heart of Silicon Valley with a small-town feel, high property values, historic buildings, wildfire concerns, and significant housing pressure. Robert talks about the challenges of meeting housing requirements in a jurisdiction that has limited land, strong community expectations, and areas located in or near the wildland-urban interface. As California cities and towns continue to respond to housing mandates, builder’s remedy projects, multifamily development, ADUs, and changing state legislation, building departments are being asked to adapt quickly while still protecting life safety and maintaining public trust.
The episode also explores the evolving role of the building official. Robert and the host discuss staffing, third-party plan review and inspection support, remote inspections, private-sector partnerships, and the pressure placed on jurisdictions to meet increasingly aggressive timelines. Robert brings a balanced perspective to these issues, recognizing the value of outside support while also emphasizing the importance of maintaining the authority and responsibility of the jurisdiction.
Beyond the technical and policy issues, this conversation is also about career growth and leadership. Robert shares his path from growing up in Oklahoma, working in construction, running a construction company, moving to California, becoming a building inspector, and eventually stepping into the role of building official. He talks about learning from mentors, serving the public, continuing his education, and pursuing growth beyond the building official role. The conversation also addresses an important question in local government: why are building officials often overlooked for executive management positions, despite the leadership, technical knowledge, customer service skills, and problem-solving experience required to do the job well?
Robert’s story is also deeply personal. He speaks with pride about his wife, children, grandchildren, and the values that guide his work and life. From family stories to leadership lessons, from building codes to whiskey festivals, this episode offers a complete picture of someone who cares deeply about his profession, his community, and the people around him.
Whether you are a building inspector, building official, code enforcement officer, permit technician, plans examiner, contractor, planner, city manager, student, or someone considering a career in building safety, this episode offers valuable insight into what it means to serve, lead, mentor, and stay involved.
Robert Gray’s message is clear: this industry needs people who are willing to participate, volunteer, learn, lead, and support one another. The future of building safety will be shaped by those who show up—and Robert is a great example of what that looks like.
Why Building Safety Leadership Matters
SPEAKER_00What does it really take to shape the future of building safety? Not from the sidelines, but from inside the rooms where codes, policy, housing, wildfire resilience, technology, and leadership all collide. Today's guest, Robert Gray, is one of those people who doesn't just talk about serving industry, he shows up everywhere that matters. From his work as the building official for the town of Oscata, to his leadership with the ITC local chapter, on the ITC international stage iAtmo, and CBOAT, Robert has become a true servant leader in the code community. He's been deeply involved in conversations that affect California jurisdiction every day. Housing mandate, remote inspection, private sector partnerships, and the future of building departments. But beyond the titles of the committees and professional accomplishments, what stands out about Robert is the way people respond to him. He's polite, cordial, easy to talk to, and genuinely engaging on a personal level. I could say he has professional and top skills. It brings a calm professionalist into the room, but also warm approachability that make people want to listen, connect, and work with him. Becoming a contractor, building inspector, chapter leader, husband father, and a proud grandfather. We talk about the responsibility that comes with leadership, the importance of volunteering, the challenges facing building officials, and why the next generation needs to step forward and get involved. This is a conversation about service, leadership, family, and the people who quietly keep our community safe, functional, and moving forward. Well, Robert, I want to say thank you for being on the show today. I've been putting this together for quite a little bit, and I what I appreciate about you is I seem to see you at all the events. You seem to be extremely involved. There's a kid over there in Peninsula. Now, Los Gatos is part of Peninsula ICC, correct? That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. So you have a kid over there, Mr. Latora, that seems to be involved in everything. And you seem, he seems to be a mentor. I don't know if it's just your proximity to him. You seem to be doing all the things that he's doing. You're you're involved with a local ICC chapter. You're involved with iApmo. I saw that recently you were with the at the ICC code hearings, and you're hobnobbing with, I don't know if if I got this right, you were there with Mr. Spencer. Was it also Mr. Savage and and Jim Sayers?
SPEAKER_01Yes, that's correct. Mr. Sayers, uh, Mr. Savage, Mr. Moso, President Moso is um that's right. Everybody was all the all the big kids were there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you you keep good company. So we we've had this discussion before about getting folks. First of all, we understand that there's a problem with recruiting in terms of actually filling the
Volunteering And Rising Through Chapters
SPEAKER_00positions, but there's also a problem with filling those spots that the the whole thing that drives this whole thing, right, is volunteering and being a part of ICC and Iatmo. And you've started very early on. You started with your local ICC chapter. You were very involved with that. So did you do the whole thing? You entered, you ran through. Were you one of those folks that was recycled through the board? You went through more than once.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I I was. I'm not sure if I if I stepped forward and raised my hand, or everyone else stepped back. I'm I'm not quite sure how that worked. But yeah, I I I appreciate the comparison to Mr. Latora. He is definitely a mentor, always has been, and great example of leadership in our industry. He's been around a very long time. He has a great knowledge of the history of the I codes and and the U codes as well, and and the and the whole scenarios that took place over the years of of getting those in place with the building standards in the state of California. But he's he's definitely an example to me and a and a been a huge benefit to me. I was able to get started with the ICC Peninsula chapter uh when I was a building inspector in Palo Alto. The current, I believe, I believe she was either vice president or president at the time, invited me to attend, and and so I did. At the time, it was kind of an it was assumed that the organization was for building officials, not for building inspectors, but that wasn't necessarily the case. And Mr. Lotora in encouraged me to continue to attend. And after a couple of years of that, yeah, I cycled on to the board and and run through all of the the board positions and and then lo and behold, I become the president of of that organization in 2020, just before some little minor worldwide event. And so got through that uh 2020 year and decided I wanted to do over, so I I jumped back on and and still the the current president now, so I'm about to finish up my second term as going through the board on on ICC and with iAtmo as well. I just finished the IATMO board, I'm the past president of the local IATMO chapter.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow, so double duty. That I understand, so I did all that, and I understand it there's a time commitment. And I I was under the same assumption that you were that it was for building officials. I got recruited as a building inspector. And I also remember that uh there was a bit of a gap between. So I took over as treasurer, and uh there hadn't been a treasurer for a couple of years, and uh, we had some issues with our filings with the IRS, and it was a quick call to Mr. Latura, and he sent me examples and connections and what an incredible resource that guy is, and uh got us out of the got us out of the hot seat with the IRS. So that was a good thing. But I I sometimes I look at someone like yourself, I look at the time commitment that what minor role I played in all this. And to be on the board with IATMO and ICC and then still participating in a lot of the national and international commitments, uh it takes a lot. And so I had this conversation with both Mr. Savage and Mr. Spencer. And at some point, you have to realize that you're not just a volunteer, but you're also a driving force and you're shaping things to come. Do you ever think about that?
SPEAKER_01You know, I I have people remind me of that. My wife is really good to remind me of that, and and a couple of good friends. I I like to think that I'm that I'm you know kind of a servant leadership type person and and I'm happy to help. It's it's it's a passion of mine to to do these things. But it's but it it is something that we're shaping the future of what these organizations do and how they look here in California. So yeah, I I I guess when you sit down and really think about it, we're we're doing what is necessary for the organizations to thrive and and to prosper here in the state. And and of course, you know, hopefully have an influence on the national level as well, and and influence code development and and leadership across those organizations on a broader level, more than just local as well.
Public And Private Sector Balance
SPEAKER_00I I have the conversation with some folks, and some folks are a little apprehensive at the fact that some of these boards and some of these committees are very heavy from private sector, and they fear that you know maybe business is influencing things and it might be more of a monetary thing than than actually a functional thing. You're on a lot of these boards. Do you do you do you see that as a problem or is it a positive thing, the way the direction that we're going, and having that mix between public and private sector people in these decision-making positions?
SPEAKER_01You know, I I don't see it as a problem on the on the local level here where we're at. I I don't see it even as a problem on the state level, organizations like like CalBO and and CBOAC, the county building officials. I I can I can kind of see where on the national level it becomes a concern is that it's a serious business at that particular point. And and it's you know, it's profit and loss. And and I and I understand that, but I will also say, too, that without the assistance of our of our contract firms here in the Bay Area, here in California in general, they're a significant resource for several things. First of all, they they support us financially and and do a phenomenal job on that. And we've all of our chapters, as you well know, having gone through the board, we we couldn't do what we do without some of their support and sponsorship. But but they also put bodies in there for us. They they put people in front of us that you know want to help and and want to assist with our organizations. But the key thing I think about those organizations is most of those people came from a municipality or move on to a municipality, one or the other. I I personally came from a contract organization before I became a building inspector in Palo Alto. So I have a deep passion for those organizations as well. And so I appreciate all that they do for our local leadership and in these organizations. So I I I don't find the conflict particularly locally. I can I can kind of see where there might be some conflict on the on the national level, but that's a whole that's a big political discussion.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess it is.
Code Silos And The Digital Problem
SPEAKER_00You uh so we getting back to the the codes, and I I know this is a this is important to you. We have ICC, we have Iatmo, we have NFPA, we have different silos, different sources for our codes. And you mentioned something earlier about the code battles. Is is there friction? Is there a better way to do this? Is there better way to collaborate or communicate between these organizations?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's the that's the $64 million question, perhaps. I I think there is there is still some friction in some of our more seasoned professionals that you know were around at that time. Myself personally, I was not involved in the in the codes at that time, and so I don't have that history. And so I I take advantage of that fact that I I don't I don't have you know the feelings that come along with perhaps some of the discussions that was had back then. And so I think there is definitely room where that we can, that we don't have to be so siloed. I think we're doing, I think California has a good model. I think we're doing the right thing for what California wants to do. I don't know that it would fit in in other states or in other places, but I think the key for me and what I what I focus on with these different organizations is the as I mentioned before, on the national level, there it's it's business. And I understand, you know, how how those organizations on a national level are competitors. And you know, you don't normally just just hang out with your competitors in most cases. But here on the local level, particularly in California, we we have to see, you know, we just have to work together. I always like to say we we all have to play in the same sandbox, and so we all need to get along locally because it requires all three of those organizations, and it requires us to be involved in those organizations to stay current and and to stay um knowledgeable about the comings and goings of all three. And you know, sure we could we could we could take it down to one organization, but I I don't think I don't think that'll ever happen in California. I don't see that in our future. And so I think it it behooves us as code officials that you know it's an obligation, so to speak, uh, that we need to be involved in in these groups and show that we can get along and we can work together at this level and and let uh let the national level do what they can.
SPEAKER_00I gotcha. I know that one of the stumbling blocks for us, so we're we're trying as every jurisdiction is trying to go completely digital with everything. And uh we just recently bought you know new code cycle, bought books, paper again. And uh part of our struggle was you know getting digital codes from ICC, then you don't have the electrical portion because that comes from NFPA, you don't have the mech and the plumbing because that comes from IATMO. So different subscriptions, different, all sorts of things to come to put them together. So at the end of the day, we threw our hands up and we decided we're gonna go one more code cycle with paper and figure that out. I wish there was an easier way to do that, but you know, it is what it is. Everybody's got their own material and it's you know, it's copywritten, it's it's everything else, it's it's your intellectual property. So I I get some of the reluctance to to put everything under one roof.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're exactly right. We I had the same concern, had the same issue. I I tried to do all digital, and I just couldn't make it work with within the budgeting constraints that that we had. I keep a digital copy of everything as building official, and I we do paper copies for for inspectors as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, gotcha.
From Contractor To Building Official
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I want to go kind of backtrack a little bit and go into your personal history. I think you you're originally a Texan, is that correct?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, by way of Oklahoma, I should say. I was born and raised in Oklahoma. And my wife and I are both from Oklahoma. We we grew up in the southwest part of the state in the in the farm area. And we were married and and started our family in Oklahoma, then moved to Texas in 2000, I think it was, and we're there for quite a while, and then got to California as as fast as we could.
SPEAKER_00Nice. So at some point you transitioned from being a contractor to going into building inspection, correct?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that that was that was a big leap for me when we came to California. In in Oklahoma and Texas, I was, of course, as I mentioned, grew up on a farm, and so we had uh cattle and and wheat farm. So that was always in our life, and and the construction that I did there, you know, kind of centered around agriculture and things like that. And moved to Texas, still working within construction and got into construction sales and construction project management in the Dallas area, north of Dallas, and then uh left that to start my own construction company and did that many years doing residential remodels, tenant improvements, and and a few new homes here and there. And my wife got an excellent opportunity to come to California and and so she and I and our youngest child packed up and and headed out this way. And when I got out here, I was like, you know what, it's it's I'm at that point in my life that I need to work smarter, not harder. And so started seeking out, trying to move over to the to this side of the to the this side of the table, so to speak, and got some certifications and and went to work for a for a contracting company and never looked back.
SPEAKER_00Nice. Palo Alto. Palo Alto, I remember so when I was a contractor, I did work, Los Gatos, Palo Alto in that area, and Palo Alto was is different. They they approach things very differently. They're a very well put together organization and very impressive. So is I guess that would have been a a great place for you to start. Set the the bar high and keep going. Well, you're you're exactly right.
SPEAKER_01They are a they are a great organization, still being led by a great building official, George Hoyt. And yeah, I I learned a lot of stuff in Palo Alto. I learned how to be an inspector, I learned how to be a leader, I learned how not to be a leader, or how not to uh what things I shouldn't do as a leader, I should say. But Palo Alto is unique, you know, they have their own electricity, they have their own gas, and so they're very they're very independent in that. And they have they have an amazing organization and have the have the building department and planning department very well put together. Very good group of people there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I remember that now. They have their own power. I'm wondering how that works out. There's a lot of things going on with power right now with data centers and all sorts of other things. I was actually talking to a couple of folks at Calbo from San Jose, and they have several data centers going up in San Jose, and they have some challenges, although they have the resources to deal with it. I I Los Gatos, so I remember working there, and it is a very unique jurisdiction, affluent jurisdiction. You have uh huge estates, and then you still have some old homes that you know are smaller, I'm gonna say more modest, but I don't think there's anything modest in Los Gados.
SPEAKER_01I I just I was doing a little bit perspective based on your perspective.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so uh I looked at median house prices in Los Gatos because I I was looking
Housing Mandates And Taller Buildings
SPEAKER_00at some other topics, and it's kind of broken down in a couple of different ways. And you have one part of town that's uh median home prices somewhere between 2.2 and 2.5. There's another portion somewhere around 3.5 million, and then you obviously have those estates and and so forth. And I guess what I was looking at is that, and obviously it gets handed off to you after planning puts this together, but dealing with arena numbers and affordable housing, and I see that you have on the books almost 2,000 homes that you're gonna put in between now and 31, 2031. How involved are you with any of that? Uh have they has it trickled down to you yet?
SPEAKER_01So it's it's coming. Yeah, it we have we had some some issues early on where we wound up with some builders remedy projects that that were able to get through while we worked on on finalizing those arena numbers. And those are those are coming, you know, coming to the building department uh here pretty soon. We've we've approved a couple of very large projects, housing projects. Fortunately, no no high-rise buildings just yet, but we do have several of those that are that are coming. And yeah, we have a we have a significant number, you know, like you said, 1900, nearly 2,000 requirement. And we my my public won't like to hear won't like to hear me say this. We don't have any choice but to go up. We don't have the land to go out. What what land we have is in the wooy, is in the you know, in the in the base of the Santa Cruz Mountains and in the wildfire area. And so we really just can't do that. And so we're we're in a town, as you said, very affluent and you know, very, very set on what they want their town to look like and how they want it to be. And it is a great town. It is a vibrant downtown, vibrant historic buildings, historic homes. But like you said, they are they are very uh they they come with a price tag. And so people have a very, very opinionated about what they want their town to be like, and and high-rise buildings don't fit into that typically. But we do have some that it appears like will be will be coming. And so we're trying to prepare for that. That's something that we're that as as this building department's not not something we've done before. We have some fairly large buildings. We're the home, we have Netflix here as as their world headquarters, and so we've we've done a lot of work for them, but still maintaining a you know, 30, 40 foot tall building, and and so we're gonna exceed that to try and match these arena numbers. And so it's it's going to be a challenge, but we're we're up for it. I'm a I'm a construction guy, so I'm I'm ready. I I say bring it on, but a lot of a lot of our constituents don't don't feel the same way.
SPEAKER_00So when you're saying taller buildings, are we talking podiums mixed use kind of a thing?
SPEAKER_01There are a couple that has has a podium mixed use level to it. Most of them are just just multifamily. We have we have a couple of applications in that are, you know, seven, anywhere from seven to eleven stories. And we're a three-story, yeah, we're a three-story max town and or have been. And so those those are you know creating some challenges and certainly ruffling some feathers here in town. But you know, on the outskirts somewhere might not be so bad. We have one that's fairly tall right downtown, and and it's a good likelihood that that it will show up. And but again, we're you know, we have to deal with it, we just have to face it and and do the best we can with it with the court of public opinion and and with the resources that that we're given. So I'm sure you guys are are seeing the same thing. Hopefully you're not dealing with that type of of increase in in floor levels, but we all have to we all have to build some houses somewhere.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And I think we have one project that's going vertical more than your typical three-story townhouse. And it's peculiar, it's placement. Uh, we have this whole thing about yeah, we have the 580 goes right through town, and this whole it was a big deal about having a site line to the hills. And then I believe it's gonna be a six-story building that we're putting right there. And you know, I I it's exactly what you're saying is you have to make accommodations. You there's certain obstacles you you have and you have to figure out a solution. And so, yeah, similar thing. And the uh Los Gatos has a very uh I'm gonna say small town feel, although you're right in the heart of Silicon Valley, and the tech and everything that's there is just mind blowing. And yet, you know, you could almost say, yeah, small town. And and but now you you're gonna have to put in these. big buildings and maybe change the the flavor there a little bit. They think it's going to be a different impression.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's the fear for sure. And and you know, they residents that have been here for a long time that that spent the dollar figures you were talking about ago, two and three and four million dollars to to buy their home or to build or to renovate their home, you know, they they have an opinion and they they deserve to have their opinion heard and they certainly don't want that value to go down. And and part of the reason they spent that money was because of the nature and the feel of the town. And so they they have a legitimate concern but it is a little bit out of our our control at this point. And so we we just do the best we can with it. But it it is a very in general a small town. I think we're you know 30 some odd thousand people not a big footprint about as I mentioned earlier we're kind of nestled right up against the Santa Cruz mountains and and you know have some beautiful landscape and beautiful areas that way but we're in a large area of of high fire danger and so you know we're a town that that has has that knocking on our door every day as well. So but it is a a wonderful place to be we have we have a very vibrant business community and always always looking for new restaurants and new shops to go downtown. We have we have some great additions coming down there as well next couple years yeah yeah restoration hardware is coming to town everyone's pretty well excited about that that's uh well they they've been in town for a long time but they're really expanding downtown and making an an amazing building down there so we're excited to be a part of that one you may you mentioned housing and I'm looking at a project and I don't know if I've got this accurate my information is always is not always spot on Los Gatos Boulevard in Burton it says that you have a mixed use project of approximately 450 homes in Los Gatos is that accurate or have I just going down the wrong path here that Burton yes I think that is I don't know if that number is accurate anymore. Okay but there is a there is a project uh proposed in that area and I I'm honestly I couldn't tell you what the exact number is at that that point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I just I saw this yeah it came across and I'm thinking in Los Gatos where are you putting 450 homes even if you called the the condos homes I mean where where are you putting all that
Wildfire Resilience And Defensible Space
SPEAKER_00it just seems way out there. You mentioned so you folks have not had any of the wildfires. I know that when I worked on that side of the bay San Mateo County parts of Santa Clara County it would take an act of God to cut down a tree. It was just so precious and just whatever the permits were ridiculous. And sometimes I remember doing a project in Atherton and there was a a a tree on the lot and they actually had to build a house around this tree because they couldn't get a permit to cut this tree down. Yeah so I mean just ridiculous. So in your instance how is there any kind of special provision?
SPEAKER_01I mean are they allowing you to clear any of these areas or are we just leaving the natural beauty of it all and we're just going to figure out how to put in housing and do all this other stuff yeah we we do love our trees in this area and and of course we're we're not alone you know we our our neighboring cities Monteiro and and of course the county of Santa Clara Saratoga Los Altos Hills we all have that same kind of look and feel and and vibe within the base of the mountains and yeah trees are important. They they you know the legacy trees that's that's pretty hard to make those go away they have to be they'd have to be well on their way already to to a natural death so to speak before we can really get rid of them. But but yeah you know the the clearings for for wildland safety it's it's we we can't really clear so much trees we can clear the underbrush we can clear that low growing you know lower foliage and and growth that that helps a helps a fire carry. But above all when we when we build in those areas we have to build resilient we have to be smart about what we put on those structures and and of course now I think I think the the C WUI the California uh wooy code is is increasing that and of course you know looking more and more about defensible space and and uh you know zone zero and the last five feet up against the house and 30 feet and and different zone areas like that it's it's really important that we follow those it's important that people that are existing in those structures follow that type of guideline and yeah we we have to look at some trees have some of them just may have to go but for the most part it's it's general maintenance can go a long ways in the in the wooy and in what we see as our part of the wooy yeah it's you're in a unique situation.
SPEAKER_00I love that part of the Bay Area wish I could afford it but it it's definitely a uh enough said I just uh I I love that part of it and it's one of those things of I'm a building guy and you know originally so when I ran into that instance like I mentioned in an athrogen I'm thinking really we're gonna do this over a tree just cut the thing down and let's go and my perspective has changed a little bit maybe I'm just getting older and softer not quite sure what's going on
Small Team Operations And New Tech
SPEAKER_00there.
SPEAKER_01Something I wanted to ask you is as building official there in Los Gados under your purview is it just building do you have code enforcement what other things are you tasked with so yeah the the building department consists of four building inspectors two code compliance officers two permit technicians and and multiple outside agencies for plan review we don't have a specific plan reviewer here in-house our building inspectors do a lot of plan review for stuff what what we used to term as over the counter of course we don't we don't have any over the counter work anymore but yeah it it's it's a small but mighty team and and it's we we cover a lot of ground for no more people than we have but very hardworking group very dedicated to exceptional customer service and you know talking about the the the opportunities that are within these organizations that we were talking about earlier I couldn't do what I do without the support of of my team here and and of course they're they're mightily involved as well in in some of these organizations so it's very helpful to have their support and couldn't couldn't do what we do without that of course obviously couldn't do any of it without the support of our leadership here as well so but a great building department team we've got some legacy guys that's been here 20 you know over 20 years and you know they know where where everything's at and know where all the bodies are buried so to speak and uh great team really really great team put together I Los Gatos is unique in that you have a a a unique resident base and I think they also set the bar high so you have we mentioned the property values but having property values like that you're also probably seeing a lot of high-end construction.
SPEAKER_00I also recall working that area because you have a lot of tech people they like to be very forward thinking they like to be on the cutting edge of tech and so you're probably seeing you know all the smart panels all those other things and your team really has to stay ahead of that because that technology changes a lot faster than building codes you do you do a lot of extra training are your are your folks staying ahead of that how do you cope with that so you're right it's we we live in a community work in a community that is very forward thinking and I'm sure you I'm sure you and and every other jurisdiction deals with it things get things get ordered you know off of Amazon or online and and there's there's no telling where they come from and many of a lot of that material is not listed or not labeled in any manner.
SPEAKER_01And so we we run into that a lot we run into a lot of plumbing fixtures a lot of electrical fixtures and and panels that that are you know from Europe or or various places that just don't they don't meet the code listings here. And so we do run into that a lot it's something that we're very cognizant of particularly in in these higher end homes we see that more there. I know in Palo Alto we had to do that quite a bit we had to get a site listings for for various things and that's always a very interesting process to do that on site.
SPEAKER_00But yeah we we we see some pretty amazing things every now and then some some of which we have to ask them to to take out which I'm sure they go right back in as soon as we final but but that's uh that's all we can do yeah so you you same struggle we have similar for us it's sometimes it's it's the residential side and we just recently run we have a uh Tesla's out here Drexelmeyer actually and they make door panels for Tesla and various other parts and they just put in various equipment that came in from Germany not listed then that whole song and dance. The benefit to us is that you're dealing with a large organization like Drexelmeyer or Tesla and so you know it's a phone call and they get things handled. When we run into it with a property owner and you know it's one of those things of I want this faucet but it's not listed and it doesn't make and you know they go to a Home Depot they buy a $30 faucet throw it in and it's exactly what you said as soon as you leave the driveway you know what got what happens it was compliant when we left that's the best we can do I like that approach yes ignorance is bliss.
AB 130 Moratorium And Ripple Effects
SPEAKER_01Because you're such you're so involved with a lot of these different organizations uh AB 130 and putting a moratorium on these building standards what do you think about that good move bad move in general I I think we you know all of these organizations we're talking about came together it's one of the one of the great examples of what what they can do on a national level when they work together ICC and IAT well NFPA they all came together to combat AB 130 I can't remember what it was before it became the trailer bill but yeah we I I think we won a little bit there at the end where we you know we were we were able to get some concessions and and it's not quite as bad as as what was originally proposed or I should say mandated. So I I think we won a little bit there and you know you take some good with the bad and and do do the best you can with it from that perspective. I I don't agree with with the process of of freezing I don't think that's the direction that we should be going. California in particular is very very set on being at the forefront of technology at the forefront of energy of green of of just about everything that California does they have a mindset that they have a mindset of being at the forefront of that and I think we've really set ourselves back you know not by our own fault so to speak but it it is something that that we'll see in years to come. Of course I fear what what it'll actually translate into you know in another three to six years. But but I think ICC and IAMO and those groups come together we we we got a got a few concessions there that helped us out in the in the end of it before it you know in the just in the last few days or last day perhaps so I was much happier with with the end result than what it looked like we were going to have within that last few days so one of the concerns that I had is you know every three years we have a new code cycle you have changes whatever so if we if we put a moratorium on this for when we skip a code cycle does that mean that that I guess that would be not the 28 but the 31 code cycle for us does that mean that we're gonna have twice as many changes or or that much more to overcome when we actually do change the cycle or change the codes and I I I'm not I'm not completely well read on this I just know that we're putting a moratorium on this so it it's you're just postponing the inevitable it seems exactly yeah you know the the IRC let's just stick to IRC for for one example that's going to continue to to evolve and and as as a code official even in California we you know those of us that are involved in the code development we're gonna continue to work on IRC and and keep it up to date on the national level as much as we can and keep those changes. So so yeah when when we come back and update that that CRC yeah it's gonna be different and and there's going to be a huge learning curve and that that's what gives me a little bit of a pause of okay what what will the state really do with that? Will they allow that to come in that way? And you know how much will how much will we be required to water down you know six year old CRC or pardon me IRC for the for the new CRC. It'll be it'll be an interesting discussion but I I don't think as code officials I don't think we can back off with with trying to make those modifications in the in the model code.
SPEAKER_00I think we need to keep trying to do that even though we're not able successfully able to get that done for the state no I I agree I you know we run into this thing and we have a new code cycle comes in and we're trying to educate our contractors you know this is coming be aware you know the old arc faults thing and and everything else that happens and I can only imagine what that's going to be like when we have twice as much and and how much pushback you're gonna get and how that's going to impact their bottom lines when they're bidding projects doing things and you you're throwing all these new variables at them I I sometimes fear that perhaps our legislators have good intentions but they don't take into effect the ripple effect. And if you've been a contractor and you've actually done hands-on work, you know that there is such a thing and if you you mess something up on step one you may be going all the way you may get to step six and have to rip everything back down in order to correct it. And I think this may be one of those things that they have really haven't considered the ripple effect. Yeah you're very correct that that is a great way of putting it it it will have consequences for sure and hopefully we can hopefully we can be in a position where we can pivot with them and and you know help the general public our our job is to implement what you know what is adopted and it'll be a it'll be a big lift for for our group for for the inspection side for the compliance side but it'll be a a big lift for the contractors as you mentioned it'll it's going to be something it's gonna be a kind of a bump in the road I'm afraid yeah yeah I was looking at the uh 26 ADU handout from from the state and I guess there's a section they call them the 66323 units and one of the sections is multifamily converted ADUs and there's an example here of converting converting storage boiler rooms passageways attics basements garages into living space wow when I when I read that I'm thinking I don't I don't understand it it it's dumbfounding me I guess where there's a will there's a way but this is what we may be in for and wow I don't know man I have I haven't read that yeah that's crazy so I understand we have a housing thing right yeah yeah so let's just put them you know let's just put housing everywhere I guess put a bedroom anywhere yeah I have I haven't read that I I I I have it and I even printed it off to to read it at some point but I keep burying it under a stack hoping that it'll just go away I think stacks in my office seem to multiply they're like rabbits I don't know and I have the same problem so I I I get this so I I do the fire call outs most of the time and I went out to one I don't know it was about a year ago and it was a two bedroom apartment one bath and after firefighters got done I go in to do my assessment determining you know how we're gonna tag this thing whatever and I open this one closet door just to look inside and I see a kid's bunk bed in there. And so I accounted that there were probably about 10 people living in this two bedroom one bath apartment. And yeah, you know and so okay so I'm gonna out myself for just a minute. I think I mentioned on another episode that I am an immigrant and we came over we were you know things were kind of rough and we were at one point I guess it was four adults three kids in a two bedroom apartment. So not quite as bad. So I get all that but but when you when you start talking about boiler rooms and attics that's a whole different level man. I I don't know I I get like I said where there's a will is a way I I think we can figure out a way to make that happen but I'm a little apprehensive.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I certainly agree that that seems seems contradictory to the the basis of what we do of providing you know safe and and healthy environment for for people to live and work. It's that just seems like a bad idea.
SPEAKER_00Right. I gotta okay so a couple of things we're legislature. So I talked with Mike Savage he was on he was telling me that in Florida they do have a a program I don't know I don't know what else to call it where you could actually hire a private sector inspector to inspect your project. So here in California we have special inspections right under Chapter 17 and they do what they do. But there you can actually have a private firm inspect all aspects of your construction. And I think I don't have it in front of me but I think there was a pending legislature to start allowing certain remote inspections here in California.
Remote Inspections And Third-Party Options
SPEAKER_01I'm a little apprehensive what's your what's your feeling on allowing remote inspections I I have a little bit of a mixed feeling about it and and yeah I think there's there's legislation coming up on that I I don't recall the number I want to say I I I'm not even gonna quote the number I'll be wrong. Gotcha going back to COVID as an example when when COVID closed everything we we were like everyone else we we shut down for the first couple of weeks because we we thought it was going to be you know come and go so to speak and and after a short time we realized that it was not going away and so my my director and I came in started coming back into the office you know in our flip-flops and sweatpants and decided we better figure out a way to to open this this place back up and so we put together digital we we we started doing online put together that entire program as far as online submittals and plan review and things such as that and along with that we incorporated remote inspections and our inspectors performed all inspections for the town it I I don't I was trying to remember today how how long we done that it was less than a year I'm pretty sure but but for a significant amount of time we did even even foundation inspections and it was a learning curve we had to we had to adjust the way we do things. You you know when you when you walk onto a job site you have a peripheral vision you have you kind of had kind of see things out of the corner of your eye so to speak but when you're being led around even as you're instructing someone to move their camera around you can't catch it all you can't see it all. And so there's there's differences there that that concern me that I wish we could have done something different during COVID but it was the only option we had at the time or that we felt like we had so I I have some mixed emotions about some of those more life safety type inspections but certainly some of the some of the simpler low-hanging fruit water heaters furnaces you know drywall insulation that type thing we can we can definitely do some of those things to but but those aren't necessarily bogging things down in my opinion but but I think it's I think remote inspections have a place certainly within some jurisdictions I think counties probably could could greatly utilize remote inspections to to really speed up inspection timelines if they need be. But uh here in Los Gatos we we were fairly successful with it but I I've been hesitant to re-implement it post COVID until until I have to once once we're mandated to do it we'll we'll start putting that together again yeah yeah that's a very good point.
SPEAKER_00I worked at county for a little bit and county is a very large area to cover and there were times you know in the city you know you have five six minutes ten minutes to your next stop county that could have been 30 45 minutes so the remote inspection thing could be a benefit. How do you feel? Let's say the the private private sector inspections, would you be willing to turn that over, say a a tract or maybe just a single family home to some sort of private inspection organization? And if it was, what would that look like? Would there be licensed? I mean, we we have all the certifications that we use for special inspectors. Would it be a similar kind of a thing? Do you think? Do you see where that might work for us?
SPEAKER_01I I do see where it can work for jurisdictions like ours where we're, you know, we have have limited resources, perhaps, and you know, some larger projects will will tax us beyond our capacity to be able to handle those things, to you know, take our inspectors out of what what they're you know, their bread and butter of what they do every day, that that can be uh kind of detrimental to our program. I think, you know, third-party inspectors, first of all. I I was a third-party inspector. I started with Fourleaf uh years ago, and and I'm a I'm a big proponent of that that type organization. There's we have tremendous organizations here in the Bay Area that support us through that. I think if if those type organizations that are held to a standard just as they are with if they were employed by the organization, by the municipality, I think we could trust those type organizations to get that accomplished, still in some form or fashion, reporting to answering to the authority having jurisdiction. But I I think there's a model there that that can be modified to to make that work. However, I would prefer it to still stay within the authority and and do, you know, contract through the authority and still have that jurisdictional control over it. And I don't know why we can't do that. I don't know why that that would be a be opposed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I agree with all that. I do recall there was a jurisdiction that I was working for down there in the South Bay, and at one point we were 14 business days out. And what was happening is that contractors would just call in and shotgun inspection requests. And it could be that any given day, you know, 25, 50% of your inspections were not ready. They were just getting something on the books because they knew they'd have to wait two or three weeks. And, you know, there are a couple of other ABs. I don't know if they've passed or not. So 253 private licensed professionals can review residential plans if it's greater than 30 days. I don't know that we have anything greater than 30 days. We're pretty lucky we're turning over things fairly quickly. And we have third party helping us, like you said. And the one that I'm not quite clear on, I think it's AB 1308. It says departments must inspect certain housing work within 10 business days of completion notice. I don't know if that's doing a final within 10 days. For us, that's not a problem. We're next day. I don't, I'm not quite sure where that would come into play. But there's a lot of legislature out there that's kind of forcing our hand. And I'm trying to determine if there are some jurisdictions out there that are struggling in terms of timelines and staffing. And uh so it I you you rattled off your staff. Do you have trouble keeping staffing? I mean, you're using third party, it's kind of filling in the gaps, and that's working out for you, I would assume.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, inspection-wise, we we have a very solid team and code compliance-wise, we we have very uh very long-term employees in both of those, both of those different departments. And we we don't have a problem meeting the day to day to day. It's those those days when we have training, days when someone's on vacation or someone maybe is unfortunately out sick or or for an extended period of time, something of a matter of fact. We we struggle a little bit, but our inspectors you know lace up the roots and and just just buckle down and get things done. And we have a really good team to do that with. I I'm like you. I don't know where these, I don't know where this 10-day inspection concern is coming from. I I don't I don't know where the 30-day plan review is is coming from. It's certainly not within most jurisdictions I'm familiar with. It's it's not an issue for us. We're we're able to able to meet that. Again, a 30 working day time frame. We're able to to come in well under that typically. We do have our fire department is out of house. We use them, we have the county of Santa Clara fire district that that serves seven jurisdictions here. And so they do our plan review and they they cover a lot of ground, and sometimes they are they struggle to meet our timelines. And but even even them, even their timelines are within those 30 days. So I just don't know where those come from, and I haven't been able to understand. You know, that was even mentioned at the CalBO, one of the CalBO meetings Matt was talking about that, you know, where's where are these numbers coming from? We're happy, we're happy to for you to pass that legislation if that's all you're worried about. Just just don't make just don't start looking at one day. That's that don't mandate one day because that doesn't work. But we've we fortunately are next day inspection as well, and and yeah, I I everything you just said.
SPEAKER_00And we also use third party, we use four leaf, I don't know who you're using. And okay, so I'm an old guy and had a couple of kids. One of my inspectors, I don't know, about a year or so ago, maybe a year and a half now, they had a baby, and you know, you you I was always accustomed to maternity leave. Well, now we also have paternity leave, and you mentioned extend extended time off, and we have another inspector that's going to have a baby coming soon, and so we're prepping for that in 12 weeks, I believe, is the number. Wow. And so we have to fill in that gap for 12 weeks. It's as a parent, had I had that, that would have been phenomenal. But it's another one of those variables that you have to deal with.
Why Building Officials Get Overlooked
SPEAKER_00And when I look at CBOs, so I've had this conversation with other CBOs, I've had it with community development directors, and it seems like when you're looking at executive management and that pathway, it seems like CBOs are usually overlooked in that regard. And I see that doing what you have to do as a CBO, you have to deal with so many variables from staffing to technical to dealing with customer service to dealing with elected officials. And I find it I don't under, I don't understand how there's this, I don't know, warped perception about what CBOs do. And I we had Jose Ibarra on not too long ago. He went out, he got his bachelor's, then he got his MBA. And, you know, he's he's looking vertically. He would like to be a city manager at some point, but he understands that that is a hurdle. That that perception. Do you see that same perception that CBOs are not quite looked at in the same way when it comes to executive management?
SPEAKER_01Wow, let me let me step up on my soapbox for a minute.
SPEAKER_00Okay, please.
SPEAKER_01I absolutely do, and I am glad you bring that up because uh that that was an interesting interview that you did with Jose. That was and it was very inspirational to me too. Yeah, we're we're definitely, you know, you can count on on maybe one or two hands of of the jurisdictions within the general Bay Area, East Bay and and Peninsula and and Monterey, of of how many directors and then farther's you know, executive management come from the building official position. It's not a lot. And I I disagree with with the whole theory of you have to be you have to come from the planning side, do you you know to to really be a community development director? That's just not something that I that I buy into. I think it's certainly, you know, community development is a is a key part for managing and and financing the the business of a town or a city. And so I I get that. It's a it's one of the key positions and key roles within a an organization, but I believe that many of us feel like we have that ability and have the experience, so to speak, to manage and lead and and uh direct people in a manner that we can still lead a community development and then further on into assistant city manager or assistant or town manager, either one, something to that effect. I I have that vertical look, I have that vertical dream, so to speak. I, you know, when I was a contractor, I I just assumed I would be a contractor all my life. And then I found that I I fell in love with being a building inspector, being a civil servant, and really enjoy, just absolutely love what I do. And I and I don't really want to change that. I want to serve the community that I that I work in, and that's something I really do, but I don't want to be stagnant. I don't want to sit in the same spot. I just have that desire to always continually improve, continually learn and try and better myself, better my family, and better the people that work with me in the process. As I uh mentioned early on, we my wife and I, you know, right out of high school, went straight to work and didn't go to college. Uh, she did later on go to college after we had our kids. Their kids were very young. She put herself through college, working and going to school, raising three kids and a husband. She did an amazing job with that. And just recently in the last couple of years, I decided that that I wanted to do that as well. It was something that was important for me to have a degree, not so much for the work or for the knowledge of it, but just a personal check the box for me. And I part of that decision was I had come up to the fact that without a degree, I couldn't make it to that next level. And so that frustrated me a little bit. Uh, but at the same time, it encouraged me to step out and take that next next leap. And so I'm I'm about halfway through trying to get my bachelor's degree as well. So I understand the struggle of that, but I I I I guess in a sense I'm playing to that argument, but yet still trying to work within it as well. That was a long soapbox talk.
SPEAKER_00No, not at all. So our current community development director, Brent Smith, used to be a building official. And uh, we had had that conversation once a long time ago, and it seems to come up over and over and over again. And Brent is, I don't know if you know Brent, but he's a great communicator, a great problem solver. And I can't imagine how someone would think that somebody with, you know, that that's gone through Brent's path would not be great at the position he currently has as our director, but even, you know, ACM or even CM. And so I I think so it's it's that thing, right? Things are going along great, so people don't think about you. When when things break down is when people start to think about something. And so perhaps maybe you need to break some things and bring attention to yourself and then come in as the hero and solve the day or save the day or whatever. I just think that I I know contractors, a lot of C or building officials have come from the construction end. I know that the technical demands of what you have to do and everything else that you have to manage. And I can't imagine how those tools, those experiences are not valuable as you move up the management chain. But what do I know? Well, I couldn't I couldn't agree with you more. Yeah. But we've had certain interactions and I watch how people respond to you. And you're cordial, you're professional, you're very well liked, and you seem to get things done. So I I I you know, I hope this works out for you. I hope that you get what you're looking for. I don't know if it's in Los Gatos, perhaps it's somewhere else. I can't imagine why it wouldn't happen for you. Let me put it that way.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you for that. That's that's very encouraging, and I I appreciate the compliment. I I try and just kind of try and live by the values that that my family had and and and raised us in. It's just, you know, every every day's a new day, and treat other folks like you'd expect to be treated. Look at every opportunity as just that, an opportunity, and look for ways to better you, yourself, your family, the people you work with, and bring everybody along as easy as you can.
SPEAKER_00There you go. And that kid, he's inspection manager now, right?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. Now we
Family, Service Values, And The Close
SPEAKER_01now we get to talk about the the real pride in my life, my my kids. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Weston, he's he's my youngest child and my only son. Yeah, followed in the footsteps. He's doing amazing work in in the city of Milpitas. Very, very proud of him. The the scary part is he's he's ten times the inspector that I ever thought about being. And on top of that, he's just an amazing husband and amazing father. So really proud of him, really proud of all my kids. Uh we've got two two daughters as well, one in Texas and one in Florida. They're all my kids are married with with kids, and you know, great great solid parts of society. They they've all contributed to uh work and process in their own ways, veterans, so some working for the federal government and uh in law enforcement, and just couldn't be happier and and more proud of of the kids that that we've been blessed to have, and the grandkids. If I could have if I could have become a grandparent without having to be a parent, wow, I'd have I'd have skipped that parent step. Man. Everybody is great.
SPEAKER_00I'm not lucky to to be there yet. I had no idea you were a grandparent. You seem like a baby in comparison to myself, uh, an old dinosaur, but wow, good for you. And and that's something that I've always said is you know, our children are our product, and I personally feel that that is a great reflection on who you are. And good for you. You said veterans, was did was someone in the military?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I had my oldest daughter joined the army a couple years out of high school, and she's she's a little tiny girl, five feet nothing, and joined the army and became a mechanic on Chinook helicopters, and did a tour in Afghanistan of on a Black Oak helicopter, and then one other tour on a Chinook helicopter. And I'm very proud of the veteran that she is and the and the effort that she put into you know putting a small woman through that type of environment is an incredible feat. She's very strong, uh willed, very uh determined woman, just like her mother in that sense. Oh, that's that's gonna get me in trouble from both sides, probably. But she's a great mother as well. And she met her husband, her future husband in Germany when they were stationed in Germany. He's a he's a Kansas boy, and they both retired out of the military or didn't retire out of the military, they got out of the military, got their, used the GI Bill, got their degrees, and yeah, doing fantastically in in Texas. Very proud of the work that they've done.
SPEAKER_00Wow, good for you. I love these success stories, I love these family stories. My kids are very important to me. I mentioned when I did the podcast with Mike Savage, I my son started golf, so you know, whenever you get an opportunity, you know, if I had to take up golf just so that I can spend some time and it's it's it's hair pulling kind of frustration, but I get to hang out with him. So I get all that. So good for you. And I'm envious at the grandkids and I get the whole thing. If you could skip the parenting and go to the grandparenting, I I would assume that that's just amazing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we we have a great time with our grandkids. We were fortunate enough. Uh one of our one of our daughters, our middle daughter, she now lives in Florida. She was able to come back and and kind of be in California for a little bit while her husband did some some training for his new job a few years ago. And so we got to spend a lot of time with her. She was in the medical profession and got to spend a lot of time with that with that grandson. And of course, now he's the farthest away. And he's the he was the last of our grandkids. We have five, and so we're very close and very excited to get to spend time with any of them. But but we miss them when they're not around us, but we we love we love them every minute that we can.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I get that. I I think it was at the Peninsula ICC installation. Uh no, it was Monterey. I happened to cross paths with your lovely wife, and I'm sorry I forget her name, but she was mentioning that the previous Stephanie, the previous week, I believe, you guys had gone to a whiskey festival or something in Monterey. Is that a thing? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It is a thing. It is it is a great thing, by the way. And anytime that you want to go, I'll be happy to tag along. Oh, okay. There are a couple of of they call them whiskeys of the world competitions. There's one actually one in San Jose that's very good. It's the same organization that does it. And then this other one is out on Pebble Beach, and it was combined with different different food options, different uh barbecue and and different seafood options. And yeah, you you just go through and taste 25, 30 different whiskeys and go outside and smoke a cigar if you want, and try some great food. It's it's a great event, it's a wonderful time. We've we've been several times, and I I will continue to go and anytime you'd like to go, I'm up for it. I'm a kind of a I become a whiskey guy, a sipping whiskey guy. So I enjoy those events. They're really fun.
SPEAKER_00I also, just the last couple of years, it's been a thing. Before it was completely off the radar, and so I'm gonna have to look for that. We're gonna have to go. It just seems like a good time. We've done the uh wine fests, the beer fests, but now it's time for the whiskey. I think it's and you sold it so well. I mean, the whiskey, the cigars, the food, I mean, pebble beach. Well, what else could you add?
SPEAKER_01How can you go wrong? I mean, that's the only way that I can get on pebble beach. I can't afford can't afford to be a member, can't afford to play golf there. So um splurge and go to whiskey tasting.
SPEAKER_00There you go. Yeah, the my son said, yeah, well, that'll uh Pebble Beach is on the list. I don't know that it is, son. That might be a you thing.
SPEAKER_01I don't play at that level, so I can't I would be way too stressed out to play Pebble Beach.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you. Okay, so it sounds like we're at the same level. Robert, this has been amazing. The whiskey thing, we're gonna have to circle back on that. I'm sure we're gonna cross paths somewhere and we're gonna go have to go do that. I uh I so appreciate you taking the time to do this. The insights, what I'm hoping is that you will inspire some of our newbies, our inspectors, some of the young kids that are getting into this to volunteer to get involved in these organizations. And, you know, I I I love talking to folks like yourself because I feel that you're inspirational and it gives people a target, right? I mean, yeah, to aspire to something better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that that's true. And I I I I certainly hope that that someone will get some good out of it. I'm I'm here as a resource, just as John Latora was and still is a resource for me. I I want to be a resource for for the younger generation coming up. I want to help all that we can. So I I encourage everyone to reach out and and let's talk about how we can how we can work together to to continue to make our industry, you know, thrive and and do what it's supposed to do, you know, provide that safe and healthy environment for for the people we work for.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. All right, sir. I appreciate it once again. Thank you so much. You have a good one. Take care. Thank you. Thank you so much. Take care. I want to give a huge thank you to Robert Gray for joining us on the show today. Robert is one of those people who truly represents what service in the industry looks like. He's not just doing the job in Los Gatos as the building official, he's showing up to the profession, giving his time to ITC, Iatmo, local chapters, co-development, and the next generation of inspectors and building officials. What I appreciate the most about this conversation is the amazing insights about whiskey pairing in Monterey. Oh yeah, and that Robert reminds us about leadership and all that other good stuff. Sometimes it's not about raising your hand, getting involved, helping where you can, and making the industry better for people coming behind you. So Robert, thank you for the time. Sorry for the poor joke. Your insight, your honesty, and your continued service to the code community. I have no doubt that the work you're doing is making an impact, not just across Cap, but across California and beyond. And to everyone listening, make sure you stay connected to the show. Follow, like, subscribe, and share the episode with someone in the building safety, code enforcement, construction planning, or local government world. These conversations matter, and the more we share them, the more we help grow and support our industry. Connect with Robert and myself on LinkedIn. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you on the next episode.