From Care Homes to Raising £120 Million: How He's Building Britain's Own AI

What happens when everything you've built disappears overnight, not because you failed, but because of a political decision you had no control over?

In this episode, I sit down with Christopher Kenna, entrepreneur, military veteran, and founder of Media Stream. After growing his diversity agency Brand Advance to £5.5 million in revenue, a US executive order banning diversity initiatives wiped out almost everything overnight, leaving him with just £500K.

But Christopher didn't stop. He's now building one of the UK's first sovereign AI companies, including Mother, the UK's first public large language model with data centres across the north of England and £120 million in debt finance raised.

This conversation goes far beyond business. We talk about growing up in care homes, joining the army on 9/11, the hidden risks of building on infrastructure you don't own, and why the UK needs to stop giving away the technology it invented.

💡 You'll learn:
• Why a single executive order destroyed a £5.5 million business
• What sovereign AI actually means in plain English
• Why most UK businesses are built on systems they don't control
• How Christopher rebuilt after losing his company, his team, and his revenue
• The mindset lessons from growing up in care and serving in the military
• Why he believes the UK can build a tech company to rival American giants

🎧 Hit play to hear one of the most powerful conversations I've had on this podcast, about loss, resilience, and building something designed to last.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Some people build a business and some people build a device. Chris Kenner grew a company all the way to the White House and then walked away from everything. What came next? Well, an AI company. And the UK's first ever homegrown large language company called Mother. This is Focus on the Fun Stuff. Chris Kenner, welcome to Focus on the Fun Stuff.

SPEAKER_04 0:24

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Um I'm really excited about today. I think we're gonna have some really big conversations because you were involved in a lot of big stuff. Um and I was trying to write my intro to kind of position what you've done, where you've come from, I guess, but I wanted to put it to you. I wanted to say, so if somebody asks you what do you do, what do you say, Chris?

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Um well it depends who's asking.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

That's a good answer.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

Um mostly I just say an entrepreneur and a dad, really?

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Because you you're an entrepreneur, you're a military veteran as well, and you're a media innovator, so like most of your entrepreneurial career is being in media, is that correct?

SPEAKER_04 1:06

Until recently, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Okay, and now it's heavily in AI and data centers?

SPEAKER_04 1:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean there's still media on that, but but yeah. So heavily in I'd say sovereign AI, like owning it ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Is that what sovereign AI means? Yes. And why is that unusual in the industry?

SPEAKER_04 1:26

In the UK, yeah. I mean, the UK invented the computer, the internet, and AI and doesn't own any of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

It's interesting. Tell me what you mean by that. Do you mean like the infrastructure of it?

SPEAKER_04 1:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you think like we invented the computer, it was literally invented here in Manchester. Um, we invented AI, again, invented here in Manchester. That was um Alan Turing. He he invented the first sort of versions of um algorithm algorithmic learning to crack Enigma.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 2:00

Um, and then yeah, the internet we've seen that guy um when we did um the Olympics, the actual guy that was on there. Yeah, he's the guy that invented the internet.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

Um, and yeah, what does the UK own? Nothing. Not one bit of it. Actually, it can be turned off to us and used as a stick to beat us, as we all watched recently in the press.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

So um it's quite a deep question just to get started, but in terms of like owning it yourself in your business, what does that mean? Like the infrastructure the way it runs on, the LLM.

SPEAKER_04 2:33

Yeah, all of it. So we wanted to um to I wanted to do media but using AI, but s quite quickly realised like if you try and do it on other people's cloud infrastructure, whoever that might be, um, and as we know, most of the cloud infrastructure comes from one country, um, then as in the the US. The US, yeah, yeah. Um then there's a high cost for that, you know. Um and it could be switched off and it could be used if you start if your head starts to come above the parapet and they start saying that you're doing well, what's to stop them putting the prices up?

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:10

To squash you out.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:11

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 3:13

And then the world's very political at the moment, you know, from tariffs to forgetting that we were even in the military with them, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:23

That was crazy, wasn't it? Yeah. So I just, you know, and I suppose we'll get into it as we go back into the past, but I've had a lot of stuff tuck away for you know, uh through other people's choices of taking stuff away, not through, not even all the time, through mistakes of my own. So I won't I can't have it again. So yeah, so um what I mean by sovereign is we build the data centres, they're all up here. We've got one in Manchester, we've got one in Liverpool, one in Durham. Um we build we built the UK's first public large language model, it's called Mother. So it's the same as ChatGPT, literally goes live public this month, and the whole UK will have and it speaks very Britishly as well. No more Z or letters. Ask it how to make a cup of tea and it'll tell you proper. Um so yeah, that took a while, that's taken us a year to do, but um, so and then on top of the large language model, all the other models like text to video, text to audio, stuff like that. Um, and then we've built our media stuff on top of that. So now it's sovereign, it's British, and I didn't know at the time when we were doing it, I was doing it a little bit because of chip on my shoulder, because of what had happened in the uh when I was in New York. Um, but then now I'm I don't know if it's m how much you've followed the news recently, but literally there is a massive decoupling from the US happening right now. Yeah, you know, you look at France, they're literally telling everyone get off American um cloud, yeah, use European stuff. The UK is doing it as well. We just, you know, I think people I I I love history, love it, right? Uh I've always liked history. And although 95% of it's been bad, I love our history as well, because we're probably the one nation that's done it all and has learnt the quickest. You know, we've abolished slavery a hundred years before, US, you know, things like that. Like, yes, we've done bad stuff in history, but we've also learned and we're quite we don't have a constitution in this country, we don't actually need one because we all know what the rule of law is. Do you know what I mean? Like so we we know what's right, we know what's wrong, and so yeah, I think it's um I think it's quite nice now that we're in a place where you know we were thinking sovereignty was like a novelty thing, and now it's sort of a national uh a national interest. It's uh you know we've had we've we've had tariffs and stuff like that. What if it just turns off AI? Yeah, everybody's plugged into it now, everything's running from it. What if it turns it off and then says, yeah, I'll turn it back on, but this is what it'll cost you. Based on this, or I want you to do this politically, or I want you to give me Greenland, or I want you to help me take Canada, or I want you to do what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Yeah, yeah, I'd never thought of that.

SPEAKER_04 6:17

He could just do it tomorrow. And there's things he has already has like laws as well. There's a thing called the Cloud Act, and it's basically that he's allowed to get the details of anybody, any information a company holds on American cloud or AI. Anything you could go in and the NHS is on there, the police is on there, the military is on there, the government's on there. Oh my god. He can take it all. All of it. Just with one order. They have a thing in the US already, it's called the Patriots Act, where he's allowed to do that, but now he's allowed to do it in our country because you're on the cloud.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

So I've never thought about it in the way that you just articulated it. Are there other people like the UK? Are we actively doing this or is this like we're moving away from yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

The whole of Europe is, right? Yeah, yeah. I think like Davos was the last you know, like the UK is a quiet country right now, you know, like well, unless you get us pissed, but um Do you know what I mean? Like we've we've been quite quiet, we're not we're not gobbing off on the world stage.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Yeah, we've been quite reserved.

SPEAKER_04 7:17

We have, yeah, yeah, and we do. That is, you know, like throughout history, and you know, do you remember when uh Princess Diana died and the Queen was getting all that jit because she wouldn't come out and you know, like she said, Well, it's we're British, it's quiet contemplation, like we're pragmatic. Um until you start rattling us, and there's not that many things that rattle us, but you know, forgetting about our military being in places, yeah, forgetting saying that we would never be at someone's side should they have problems, yeah, when the only person that's ever called Article V was America. I joined the army the day the planes hit the building.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Really? Yeah, that's the day you joined the army, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:59

Uh um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was that week. Um, and so um, yeah, I just think we're we're just it's given us a little bit of a do you know what? If we've invented all this stuff, we need to. Why how can it be used against us? Like we should own. Why do we not have the biggest computer company if we invented the computer?

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:21

We don't even have one computer company. Yeah not one. We used to have Amstrad, didn't we? But even that's gone now. So yeah, so we're we've built it from the ground up, all owned by us. You know, I've even been strict on my investment as well, so I could only get 30% investment from outside of Europe.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Wow. Has that made it difficult or more challenging?

SPEAKER_04 8:43

No, it's actually um no, because people like it, you know, like you've got to remember, like, the UK's got a lot of money, we're just not very good at letting go of it. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's really hard to raise money here, don't get me wrong. I know it is compared to the US, it's really hard. But we're still like the fifth, sixth richest country in the world. There's loads of money in this country, like loads. It's just, you know, when you're in the US and some other countries, the people that decide who gets investment, they are entrepreneurs, just like us.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:17

Whereas in uh in the UK, they're all CFOs.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_04 9:22

They all work in finance. Right, right. So it's all like, well, you go and show me how well it's gonna do, and then come back and ask me. And you're like, well, when I've made some money, I won't bloody need you.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 9:32

So you're stuck in this thing where people are saying, Well, just show me it working. Whereas, you know, in the US you can just have like an idea on the back of a cigarette box. Yeah. And you do know what I mean. If you're in the room with the right person, you'll walk out with a few million.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 9:47

And if not a billion, but we've all watched how we work. He was bloody in a taxi with a guy from Softbank, wasn't he? Walked out with like two billion or something.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

The WeWork guy. Yeah, yeah. Was he really?

SPEAKER_04 9:56

Yeah, I watched that on, I don't know. I watched that on Apple. But that's true, it was. But but yeah, so so we definitely that's what something is for us, is sort of to to to let it be British again. You know, yeah, amazing. And it's not like a uh like a nationalist thing. You know, when we first started, was before all the stuff uh politically it's happened, and I was sort of, you know, a bit worried of if we start talking about sovereignty and blah blah blah, then you know, are people gonna be looking at our arms looking for a bulldog tattoo? Or do you know what I mean? You know, because we're not the best country for if you talk about being proud, then we sort of lump it under racism.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Racism now, yeah, yeah. We do, yeah. Do you know what I mean? The second very confusing, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_04 10:41

Yeah, yeah. So, and then and you know, I'm not sticking flags on bloody lampposts all over the place. I just think if we're gonna work, we're a hard-working nation. It shouldn't be we shouldn't be dictated to by people outside of our country and culture about the way that we have to do business, about the way we can live, about you know what we should stand up for. I don't think that should happen. So, yeah, that's why we've gone down this route of build it here, and now lots more people are joined on it.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

And that I think that is like the best mission I've ever heard. Like when you talk about mission, vision, values for a business, like that's amazing. Like, wow. I wanted to ask you, Chris. Um, so we're like just prior to this episode, we were chatting a little bit about your like you've had you had a very challenging upbringing, you're in care homes for most of your youth, I think. Yeah, you're a military veteran. Um, you started your first agency, was it a production agency?

SPEAKER_04 11:40

Yeah, a production company, literally about five doors away from where we are.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

And we're gonna get into some of the stories you've told, but I just wanted to ask, like, I feel like most business owners, I think that there's a start, I think it's like less than half a percent of businesses even get past a million turnover. Like, can you identify how, because you've obviously thought very big, like this, like were you ever conscious of that? Like the stuff that you're doing now, the valuation that your business is getting, the do you know, like how the kind of, you know, the business plan that you set up of having the you've got um TV channel which is AI kind of, it it will help deliver the kind kind of content you want to watch. Like that's that's very high-level visionary ideas thinking. Like, has it ever been one overwhelming, but two, like, do you you know that kind of drive to do big things? It's very, very unusual.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Is it?

SPEAKER_01 12:35

I I well definitely the data says that most people are kind of they work on their own, they don't have any team, they're definitely maybe up to like 500,000. Do you know what I mean? Like that there's not many, there must be a very small group.

SPEAKER_04 13:13

Um I don't know where it comes from. I have it every day. I can't sleep very much, I don't sleep very much, I'm tired all the time. Um, but I don't mind.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Um Is that because you constantly arrange it? What next, what next, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:30

Every day. It's just like I'm very good at chess because I'm quite good at thinking a few steps ahead. A few steps ahead, yeah. Um do you know what? Uh I think I can't lose. I could lose companies in a half.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:48

I can lose money, and I'll definitely have. Um I can make bad decisions, but I can never lose, not really, because I already with even without the money or anything like that, I'm already richer and than I've ever been because I have a family now, I've got kids, do you know what I mean? I've got things that can't be taken away from me.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:10

Do you know what I mean? I'll always have a roof over my head, whether it's my roof or a friend's roof or do you know what I mean? Like, um, I have kids in their twenties now, so it'll be their roof if anything gets really bad. Like they're um yeah, whereas before I didn't have any of that when I was growing up, really. You know, like um I was more in my teens, but yeah, you know, I was in and out of children's homes. I was shipped to different children's homes in different cities and stuff like that. I spent a little bit in Liverpool, in Dovecot, and there's a little bit in um in where else was I? Oh actually no, Dove Cot let me retract that. Dovecot wasn't a children's home. That's um some family lived there. Um where was I? I've been obviously quite a lot here in Manchester. But then I was um Scotland, Sunderland. I was in uh I was in children's home, YMCA in Sunderland from the age of like fifteen to seventeen.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

Um so like I got chipped quite a lot around. Yeah, you know, and most of it was cool, but 10% of it wasn't. Um and so yeah, I think now I have stability and and so I can take a bit I can take risks that maybe as others aren't comfortable taking.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

But it's because I can never lose. I'll always I'll always have more than what I started with.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

So And is that how you approach risk?

SPEAKER_04 15:43

I don't always think of it that deeply.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

No.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

I'm just just inherent in me that like you don't get anywhere without taking the risk.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:52

You know, this company at the moment is probably the biggest risk I've ever took. Just because the numbers are so big.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yeah, you know what I mean. You've raised a lot of investment.

SPEAKER_04 16:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and a lot of it's debt and debt raised as well rather than um equity raise. Okay, you know, so so there's you know, there's a lot of debt that sits there that needs to be repaid. Um and so, yeah. I mean, you know, anything over fifty million is a lot, but when you're talking like 120 million in debt finance and and yeah, it gives you nice um, you know, nice headlines of what you're gonna I uh what you possibly can IPO at a couple of billion and stuff like that, but um it's all not real. You know, it's not real money. There's not a billion in any account that I'm associated with. If there is, somebody needs to tell me. Um Do you know what I mean? Like it's not real money, it's not real and valuations, what are they? They're just the price somebody will they think someone will pay for it, you know. Um so um, yeah, I have a high risk tolerance, but but I know also I just get bored, I've got like mad ADHD. So um and I took Adderall for a little bit, but then that just made me lose it, whatever the superpower was.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Right, okay, it like dull you down a bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:17

I hated it, yeah. Um it was like uh I have epilepsy as well, and so when it gets really bad I have to take um Valium as well as my epilepsy tablets, epilom. And so um, yeah, it was a bit like taking Valium, like it just took it away.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I totally get it.

SPEAKER_04 17:35

So um so I don't, I'd rather just be a bit scary and like yeah, a little bit like Tasmanian devil, but at least shit gets done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Can I swear? Yeah, yeah, you can definitely swear, yeah, it's fine. Cool. Um and you're you're obviously the visionary, you're the big idea guy. When like in the businesses that you've had, like the production agency, you had a diversity marketing agency that we're going to talk about, the business now. I just want to ask like how have you approached have you, you know, because I would like you've got great ideas, I assume you need the people around you to implement them. Like, what's been your approach to starting businesses a lot of the time? And I think this is why business owners get stuck in the weeds, they're like wearing every single hat, they're trying to learn all the things, do all the things. Like, have you approached starting a business the same way each time? Or do you think you've got better at it?

SPEAKER_04 18:23

Got better at it. Um I've always found I always need stability around me. Um, one of them is in the room, so he's been on every company I've had, he's worked on it.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Really?

SPEAKER_04 18:36

Yeah, Dean, that helped set this up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, he's been in every company since since here.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Wow. Um so does he kind of like make shit happen? Basically.

SPEAKER_04 18:47

Here yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And just as like I I'm like Yeah. Like, do you know what I mean? Whereas he's very like on it. So, yeah, I think everybody needs a person like that.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:01

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Does he help you like protect your time as well? If you kind of like go in, there's too much going on here, Chris. You need some time here.

SPEAKER_04 19:08

Yeah, like I think you you said it when we first got here. Everyone always thinks he's my assistant, he's not my assistant. And if he did, he'd if he had you heard anybody's well, if he heard me say that he'd quit. Like, but um it's sort of like the yin tier yan, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Um yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 19:27

Um, and so and then there's other people that have uh helped, uh, you know, they're not all worked in every company, but have been an integral part of that company, you know, because having ideas is one thing, bringing them to life is another. I think I probably is, you know, if I'm gonna blow smoke up my own backside, I'd say I probably straddle both of them quite well. It's not I don't just come up with an idea, I tend to come up with an idea and get it sold in, and then I go, shit, am I gonna deliver this? Do you know what I mean? Like I'm pretty good at getting to that point of selling it.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

And then I'm like, do you know how to do it? No, I don't either. I just said it. You know? Like, and I'm really bad at saying no when somebody asks, says, Oh, can you do this? Especially if they've got money in their hand. I'm like, yeah, yeah, no, we can do that. Yeah, we'll figure it out. Yeah, we'll figure it out, you know. So um, uh yeah, I think I don't have loads of ideas. I just have loads of ways to make that idea work.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

Do you know what I mean? It's not like I come up with a thousand businesses. I don't I come up with one business in a thousand ways to make it happen.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:33

And then if the first way doesn't work, the next way, the next way, the next way. And normally, um, you know, like I quite I like military strategy. I I quite like reading about that. And that's always like you have your sort of your main objective, but then you have two other objectives as well. Uh and uh a a QRF, it's called so a quick reaction force or something in the background if that goes wrong, that quickly comes in and masks it, helps it, saves it, brings it home. So I always sort of plan things in my head like that. So there's sort of like the main idea, then there's the backup thing, and then there's the QRF to come in and save it if it starts going wrong.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:17

Yeah, yeah, I do that on everything really. So it's a proper like kind of top, like over the top view of everything, all the what's and it's but my brain does that on like going to the shop, like what if the shop's closed? Alright, well there's another shop. Well if that one's closed. I've got a mate with lots of food in his fridge. Do you know what I mean? Like I uh where I think it's oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Um can we just talk a little bit about your idea for this business that you have now, which is Media Stream, um, and just roping it in with the previous business that you had and what happened there, like the story you just told.

SPEAKER_04 21:48

Yeah, yeah. So um, you know, I'll try and say the version that doesn't get me in court, but um we I had a diversity agency, did really well during COVID. We grew during COVID, got a fantastic team. Um, and then we um I went on a trade mission to the US, to New York, um with London and partners and you know the UK government. Um and then um ended up setting an office up there. We set up an office in Brooklyn um and um we did well. was doing well. Um we did oh it was in Brooklyn and we had Manhattan as well and we got some big clients and it was all going really well and we were growing. Um and then um well leader of the free world banned diversity basically wrote an executive order and yeah that just overnight killed us.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

What was that related to that order?

SPEAKER_04 22:51

Just not spending time and focus on it or do you know anything that Yeah okay like that's we can't reason it yeah no none of it honestly like I don't still now you know I don't quite understand how you ban diversity. Like I'd love to read the executive order. I've never read it I suppose it probably is there's place you can read them but like yeah I'm sure of it I think over here it was just a fleeting news story.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

Do you know what I mean? Yeah yeah yeah um but over there it was like a big thing and so companies couldn't work with us and work with the State Department and stuff like that and so yeah and then um there was announcements of like different companies were put on um on different websites about whether um they work in diversity and stuff and that just made it dangerous then you know like when when when your company and your own name has been said out publicly and associated with something that's been vilified.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah so why so they so the White House basically published your name and address.

SPEAKER_04 24:01

Well they've published a lot of people's details and why were they doing that? I think it was just I think that's how an execu like it's examples of what they're talking about. Right right right now I just know there was an executive order it had um and it was it from from from everything I do know because I left within 24 hours you know as soon as I thought it was unsafe I would just left but um from everything I do know is the the executive order specifically said that the US State Department will no longer be focusing on any DEI initiatives. Right and because of the way that our agency was we were classified in the US as a DEI agency. We were helping um um US companies and US government departments to reach African Americans to reach Hispanic Americans to reach LGBTQ plus etc because this were the media that we ran um and the campaigns that we ran for them. And so yeah just overnight switched off and so you just so what happened to the business in Brooklyn in Yeah so we shot that we had to shut quite quickly um but it just had a big ripple effect it took the UK down with it. Yeah we had bills that were you know would have been easily covered with profit but when something the thing was as well and it switched off overnight and just took away from us about five and a half million quid overnight. Wow so all this forecasting and it left us with about 500k that we actually got so um yeah that was like it was a massive massive like pullback yeah um and it just it just wrecked everything really so in the end we tried to hang on for as long as we could yeah back in the UK um but in the end we had to put the company into liquidation it was just you know people lost their jobs it was crap um and yeah there was just no way of saving it in the end because um another thing that sort of was a hindrance to the UK company was um we grew during COVID you know like we were nothing really we were just a tiny little idea on a couple of people at the beginning of COVID by the end of COVID we were running like five six campaigns a month for the government so um more sometimes so like every campaign that you were seeing so like do you remember like you would have uh get vaccinated but then you'd have stay no um you'd have eat out to die no dine out to do you remember when you gave us all the tenor to go and eat yes what was that yeah yeah so we ran that campaign did you yeah yeah we ran loads lots and lots lots and to different communities as well and tailoring them to the community we ran Ramadan campaigns stuff like that Ramadan how's everyone gonna get together during Ramadan but be safe if you all got to stay away so we ran campaigns for the government for that yeah um so yeah lots and lots of campaigns and the um and so we grew a lot the thing during COVID was you didn't have to pay VAT or national insurance it was a whole break because no nobody was open yeah you know yeah so they gave you a break so we had a year and a half of massive growth and my inexperience I wasn't because we were given this break I was like okay well let's just plow that into growth get more people do more stuff let's get ourselves ready for when there is no more COVID campaigns but we're ready um what I should have just done is paid the VAT anyway because then at the end of COVID we had a two million quid VAT bill. Got you it was waiting at the end yeah yeah because they just sort of they made it sound like it was all this great we're doing this for you no you're not no you're not you're just making it much harder for me at the end but you naively don't see that. So anyway so we um and then it was just trying to pay this back this bill back yeah and it just we just never once what happened in the US in like it as well. Yeah yeah and then it was just like this we're never gonna pay it back like it's just gonna follow us. Well I mean we we got it down I don't know got it down to about 800k or something like that. We paid a chunk but um yeah it just in the end it just wasn't viable to carry on anymore. And you know Black Lives Matter had sort of faded out diversity you know what year was that so this isn't um not that long ago is it it was it was in COVID wasn't it or was it so Black Lives Matter was COVID during COVID yeah yeah so but by this time obviously COVID was much up was well over about a year or two into the second year out of COVID. And yeah just I mean it's still happening a little bit now even here a little bit like things that had gone forwards sort of two steps forward three steps back do you know what I mean like literally things yeah people have got short memories maybe it's black lives don't matter as much anymore. I get you totally yeah that's so um so yeah so that that was that was the end of that really and I learned a lot from it I learned more on the way down than I ever did on the way up.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Did you I that was gonna what I wanted to ask you next like how did you deal with it because you've mentioned a few times about building stuff building stuff that like your own people can't take away from you and I totally get that and I also get the like you've got a point to prove as well or you have had previously it's like how did you deal with that business closing and and was there a do you know getting that like energy back to go okay that happened we're gonna go again I've got a new item I never lost the energy okay um I'm trying I'm just trying to think of how to articulate I don't think like everybody else which is probably good forty percent of the time but like um so things where other people would be really upset I don't no get really upset. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

I am I'm sad but I'm not yeah so I struggle with that sometimes right I don't know why I just do um I hope I'm not heartless I don't think I am like I think it's just I just don't show it like everybody else otherwise I would have spent a whole childhood just do you know especially my teens my childhood but my teens I would have just you know like you can't you can't that's a weakness and people will just jump on it and you know living in children's homes with nine other guys like they'll just bat you yeah yeah yeah they'll take everything you've got every day so like you just don't and now as an adult I can't like sometimes you know like I just that that that emotion is not showing the way you wanted it to show and so that affected things more than the actual what was going on I think you know especially when staff are losing their jobs and stuff like that and they they were wanting some people were wanting something from me that I didn't have um and it didn't mean I wasn't like sad about it and I wish I I tried everything I could right for longer we probably kept the company going for a year longer than we should have.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Right.

SPEAKER_04 31:55

Do you know I mean like we tried yeah we should have walked away a year before that it would have been it would have been more uh it would have yeah we should we should have um it would have been better for everybody but we didn't because that's also not in me to quit you know so it needed it needed to be impossible before I could stop not just a bad day I can do bad days for as long as I need to do bad days. Do you know what I mean? Like that's um so yeah yeah that was that was probably and that's what I mean by I learn more was like I learned a lot about myself I learn a lot about what I can put up with but also I learn a lot about um how I sometimes I might need to if if my face is not showing the thing it needs to show then learn how to make your face show it because that's important to other people to see it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

I get that as in like at that time team members and so yeah okay I totally get that.

SPEAKER_04 32:58

You know what I mean otherwise things will just turn on you because you are this ah this bass that's not that it's just moving on and you're like I'm not like guys it's just I just don't I'm not I just can't like it doesn't happen like that. I just I'm I can't break down with you. You know I can't go into a room and and I think people it was less about my my expressions at the time I think it was more how I just got up and I was like okay really sad. Thanks it's great to know you all right yeah um I'd love you to do you know what I mean like I just got up and got on and I don't know whether that's military I don't know whether that's smart you know because you have to you could anything could happen. Yeah you could be walking away from somebody you know that's just lay there. That didn't happen to me but you could be the um it just yeah I think I just not wired the same as everybody else but it taught me to to taught it taught me to look at myself and to reflect a bit more on that. Yeah yeah and to just just to to see you know I'm not too bad well actually I'm crap at it but um I thought I wasn't too bad at acting so maybe it's maybe it's just sometimes in life you just have to do it's not just about what you're how you get over something. Yeah. Especially if you're gonna call yourself a leader then you need to actually lead and that sometimes means you have to it might not be the true expression of the feeling but if you're gonna be a leader you need to it needs to be about other people and not about how you are.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Yeah I do get that I do get that I in a in ways as well I do admire what you're saying because like um I think businesses fail don't they and businesses start again and in like in the US I know like there's a lot of bad stuff going on in the US but in the US I feel like it's almost like a bit of a badge of honour that you've had um a business fail. It's like oh like fair play to you you're on to the next thing do you know and whereas here it can be much more of a like I think like the British press are very eager to report he's gone into liquidation or he's done this like it's kind of a really terrible thing but businesses fail every day and they often lead to a much better business don't they? And as a leader you do have to put your own oxygen mask on first don't you to to make it make the situation as good as it can be to protect yourself to move on to next thing like I'm sure you're still again providing loads of employment to your team members now. I think in the UK we can get too down the rabbit hole of my God I'm a failure this has happened it which is also not beneficial is it?

SPEAKER_04 35:38

No no no because the economy needs SMEs yeah like because it's something like 80% of the economy is SMEs humongous yeah yeah yeah so you know w they need it needs us to get up to keep things going yeah going and you know I don't think there's ever a business that's too big to fail so um even if you're you know getting getting getting in the money you want you're building a good strong business it's getting crazy valuation so don't take anything for granted you know like it can still all go wrong so um you still gotta work hard at it um press has been I was saying this because the press has been quite good to me so far they like they haven't like totally jumped on us. I think it's about to happen.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Do you right?

SPEAKER_04 36:25

Yeah because everyone's getting called after so there's you know that um the Bureau of investigative journalists no don't know what that is right so it's basically a load of journalists so that when they want to find a story they they're the ones that go in and try and find it.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:41

They've been photon my friends and family all for the last three weeks. No yeah yeah everybody to whoever you are um yeah yeah they have everybody so asking about old company asking about the US asking about but then you know I should expect it as well you know because I've had some some great articles and like lots of great press at the moment saying some crazy numbers so of course they're gonna look yeah I was gonna say because your profile has and is rising quite quickly hasn't it over the past is it like 12 months 24 months or so so um so yeah of course they're gonna give me a kick and do you know as well like you know I can only talk for myself can't talk I don't know about you but like if you pick anybody up and shake them change falls out yeah that's a great yeah yeah yeah it's so and and I've had a colourful life but I don't think I've done something bad bad I'll blanch upside down I'll soon get to read it but like you know like well I've never had there's never been anything you know there's no old school stuff there's been no harassments you know I don't there's not I don't think there's ever gonna be any stories like that. Yeah don't slap people on asses or anything like that. Do you know what I mean? Like that's that's not a business I've I've run what but I do know what my downfall or my um sort of flip side is and that is I am really driven and sometimes if you're just not like you're in my way if and whether I work with you or not if you're just in the way I could sometimes be like could you move?

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Yeah well well yeah but I don't think there's anybody that's been super successful that hasn't that doesn't do that.

SPEAKER_04 38:23

Like that that is one of the reasons why I could be bad at that I don't mean like I scream and shout or anything like that no but just like my my my you know the direction you want to go in. Yeah and my sort of I have really low bullshit tolerance and you know like and like so salespeople that like I'm not the best if like yeah no I'm bringing in a million quid and then you find out it's like 10 grand you know but and 800 K's worth of fanciful thinking. Yeah yeah and so um yeah I'm not the best at like not saying that in the meeting rather than the whole thing where you should go into another room and then maybe say it. Right right yeah wrong a few times.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah and I and I'm learning um and teaching myself but yeah it's like a everyday yeah yeah but but there has to be yeah like you're taking much bigger risks than most people like the business you got is much much bigger than most people's like there has to be some elements that not everybody adopts that get you there. Isn't it like one of my mentors is the greatest saying that I always learn by is like you get what you tolerate and to be fair most business owners will just go oh right okay it's fine then like it is one of the biggest differences isn't it in what I think in my experience of speaking to business owners from having the business that you love it's either growing it's giving you the revenue you want whatever that is to you but most people just tolerate shit or mediocre and they don't go I think sorry.

SPEAKER_04 39:55

Up north it's a little bit better actually I've not since I've been back like I think there's a uh an etiquette down south where you can't really say what you're thinking at all to anybody. Do you know what I mean? Totally whereas up north you sort of get told don't you more direct yeah yeah it is you know and it's not rudeness it's just I'm not you know it's not somebody trying to bully or anything it's just saying like come on like I know you can do better you know you can do better this isn't what we need yeah come on let's let's go and do it do you know what I mean like I think I found it a lot easier since I've been back here to to to find my leadership than than I did down in London to be honest because it's a little bit fluffy and it's just like are we we we can all hug or we can get something done. I'd rather get something done. Yeah yeah like I don't know and I don't mean that rudely because we you should have you know things there's checks and balances in place in the workplace to make sure that people are safe. I get that I'm not knocking that I really am not it's just sometimes we s so stuck in the yeah you know that nothing actually gets done.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Done I totally get that and it's just I'm not very good at that and like I can last it for about an hour and then you know then I'm itching and then and then I start just I'll just walk away about yeah well it takes a lot of energy to maintain a high performing team doesn't it because I think most people will naturally kind of sink back down to what's easy what's you know like routine common and like it take like from a leadership perspective like constantly pushing sorry this is not good enough guys we need to be up here that's it takes energy and effort and it's frustrating when when it doesn't work totally um I wanted to ask like what you've achieved already a lot you I like I wanted to ask what what what is like your North Star what's motivating you is it just is it like continuing the journey is it seeing how big and what can happen or is there a particular end exit point like is there a kind of thing that's motivating you currently there is um I want to build the biggest I want to build a tech company that rivals US tech companies yeah and do you uh are there are there many or any of them in the UK there's some quite yes but let me rephrase it then I want to build a tech company that's as famous as the ones in the US okay because yeah we've got like big tech companies like ARM the chipmaker right there chips pretty much in everything but we just don't shout about it like if you don't know who ARM is no I don't I've never heard of them.

SPEAKER_04 42:55

Oh yeah no they've got massive massive office here in Manchester yeah yeah yeah massive big campus um yeah ARM it was started in Cambridge but it was um it's got a big arm up here big arm up here um but yeah you know but nobody's heard of it um I think uh it it did it didn't it IPO not that long ago at 40 billion or something. Oh wow yeah like it's massive it's just nobody shouts about it um but everybody knows about Facebook and Google and blah blah blah and I'm not saying I'm gonna be as big well actually why not? Why not? Like I'm literally sat in the country and I'm sat in the country but I know I've said it already but I'm sat in the city that um everything we use in AI bloody invented here. So why can't we build the biggest company here with it? The intelligence is here. Yeah and the amount of intelligence in Manchester as well do you know what I mean? Like there's the Graphite Institute or graphene or whatever which is you know we've just been we've always been on top of tech here.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Yeah we're just not very good at telling anyone and do you find the UK government like helpful encouraging because clearly you must be on their radar in a big way.

SPEAKER_04 44:13

Yeah yeah like they kind of um it's starting to now yeah yeah because they need to switch away from US dominance and so I have an option for them you know um uh an AI that can do everything can do everything that open AI is doing for them or that Grok is doing for them. Yeah. Ours can do the same. So they can just switch it basically and then the UK government isn't plugging itself into some something that's outside of the UK. Yeah do you know what I mean? The data's not going past Anchester Durham's a bit higher, isn't it? Not going past Durham.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:52

You know, it's all staying here, it's on clouds, it's on uh all the GPUs and everything are all here that's powering the AI.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

And is it like an active conversation that's happening with the UK government?

SPEAKER_04 45:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Across all different departments and with the Ministry of Defence, etc., as well. So, so yeah, I think and that's why I say I I always aim big, you know, like I wanted to be the biggest diversity agency, and honestly, I think I don't think it's blowing smoke up anybody's backside to say that brand events was for a period, yeah. For a couple of years, you know, like we were everywhere, we were talked about everywhere, we were in the press every month in like trade press, we were doing big uh events, we were yeah, we would have I brought so solid crew back together to perform just because we could.

SPEAKER_03 45:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:42

Like honestly, we were just we were we were just having fun with it, you know. Um so yeah, then and obviously we've gone through what happened with that one, but yeah, with this, I think it's not about the fame. Well actually, you know, that's a lie.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Maybe maybe there's a part of it.

SPEAKER_04 45:58

There is a bit, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Is it to like prove that you can do it?

SPEAKER_04 46:02

Not me, to prove the UK can do it.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Yeah, okay, cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:05

Yeah, yeah. Like I I'm past I've I've spent a lot of my life, you know, um 45 years old this year. So I've spent a lot of my life proving to people what I can do. I'm over that now. Okay, like you know, you can do it, yeah. You know, like and I've proven it, you know. Um so now, but now I've it's like what we can do, you know.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:35

Um since 17 I you know, when I when I first went to the Army Careers office, I've just been proud of this of this country and what it can do and how it'll stand up for things that are right and do you know what I mean? Stick our own kids in harm's way. Um like my kids just been doing training exercises in Greenland in Greenland.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

Wow.

unknown 46:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:01

Yeah, he's a he's in the army. He's in the German army though, because he's a traitor. Um but yeah, he's in the army. So, like, yeah, I'm just very proud of it of the country, so and and on what it can be and what it has proven itself to be. Yeah you know what I mean? Like in in especially in the last ten years, like we've sort of you know, I'd go as far as to say Europe is the leader of the free world now. Who else can't people that people that bully can't lead the free world. So you know, so and the UK, even if though we're not in the EU, yeah, we help lead Europe. Yeah, for sure. No denying that. So yeah, being quiet.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

I totally get that.

SPEAKER_04 47:41

You know, so I just yeah, I think it'll be really good just for the country. And even if we're not the company that actually does it, you know, like Facebook didn't invent social media.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Yeah, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:51

Do you know what I mean? Like, but even if uh, you know, um do you remember Friends Reunited?

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

So the people that invented Friends You United here in the UK, they um I didn't know that was in the UK. Yeah, it was, yeah, yeah. And they sold it to ITV for 112 million. So, you know, this man and woman? Yeah, so this man and woman that made it, and they sold it for 112 million, um, and then it just fizzled out. Right. Um, but yeah, so and that was that was Facebook. Yeah, it was exactly the same as Facebook, and then you got like MySpace 1 year and stuff like that, if you remember that, um, and Bebo. So they are and they all made a lot of money. That's okay, you know, the people that did it, but they might not be the ones that said it. I don't mind if that's what uh MSAI is, you know, like if we just get everybody come and build their own large language models, come and build their own data centers, just come and own it. I'll be just as proud. Yeah, you know, because well I'll still have a yacht and can. And you know, I I'll have the money. So I'll just be set on my yacht, be proud because now there's 20 companies and two of them are bigger.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

Yeah, you know, like inspired by you and have now building it.

SPEAKER_04 49:07

Yeah, and and maybe it's not even you know, don't need to be inspired by me, but just be inspired by the the fact that we can.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:13

Like I think we just lost our mojo a little bit. Totally, like it bugs me out. I'm trying my I don't know why, but in the last sort of couple of years, I've started to think outside of me. You know, like don't get me wrong, sometimes it is all about Chris to Chris. But um I don't know, the world's just got weird.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:35

Like, so weird. So I I'll say the word scary, but I'm not really scared of it. But like it's just, you know, especially because I've got kids and then um, you know, they'll have families and stuff, and like, what have we done? What have we left them? Like, what have we actually done? What have I done? You know, I've d joined the army to defend what I thought was a group of nations that were gonna uphold freedom. He's now taking countries off people.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:08

Just wakes up and says, I'll have that. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So what why why why was I in Iraq then?

SPEAKER_02 50:13

Yeah, I tell you.

SPEAKER_04 50:14

What did I go to Iraq for? Nobody attacked the UK.

SPEAKER_02 50:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:17

I'd never been to the US, you know. Yeah. Why was I there? Like, why do people I know die? For what? Like, and so I've been thinking a lot of outside of myself and just like you know, okay, I'm just a business owner, and this might be a success. You know, it's on its way, but um, it might not in the end. But like, what are you actually doing though? You know, I've had a lot of that thoughts. Um I I feel like I was meant to have them in about 15 years' time, but they've happened. You're having them now, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

Like, what's the greater impact?

SPEAKER_04 50:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like uh what's her name? So there's American actress, um, she did Mock and Bird. Um, what's her name? Jennifer Lawrence.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Oh right.

SPEAKER_04 51:00

And she was talking about winning an Oscar and she's like, uh, what's it all about? I don't know how to you know, I haven't seen it actually before, and I'm feeling a bit of that in life. I guess it's a lot of people. You know, like what what are we doing? Like, why? Yeah, you know, and so I need to bring it back to to for my own sanity. I needed to bring it back to some kind of um reasoning, and my reasoning is you know, I think we're just meant to make it uh we're meant to make it better, yeah. You know, we're meant to make tomorrow better than yesterday. That's what we're meant to do, and if we could all try and have a go at that, then it would be a much better place. Now I know that's very fluffy and great thing to say, and there's a lovely sound bite on a on a podcast, but in the real world that doesn't work out. But I think I can a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

Love that.

SPEAKER_04 51:47

Just a little bit. Yeah, but you know what I mean? Like I think if you know the black kid from Manchester that got married, had kids, and then ended up settling down with a guy can go and raise a hundred million quid in debt finance from people he's never met, you know, like to build data centres and a large language model called Mother, because he didn't have one.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Like it feels like a fill, like it feels like a plot to a film now, isn't it? But like I love it, anyone can do it.

SPEAKER_04 52:21

Like, honestly, yeah, I know people say that all the time, but you honestly can. Like, I am not clever, clever. I'm just driven. Do you know what I mean? Like, and that's just a mindset, that's not uh an academic thing. Like put me in a test and I will flop, like you know, um, but yeah, just wanting to do it and to just not taking on and not worrying about when people are are turning against it, because we're not the best country for like people that do well. Do you know what I mean? So oh god, we will tear you down, like oh you think you're better now. The amount of like crap I get from people in Manchester that I've known all my life. Oh really? Oh, all the time, all the bloody time, especially when you won't do something.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

Like you mean they ask you for something, no.

SPEAKER_04 53:12

Well, just all the time. Sometimes it's just like senior in that um oh I don't really know what it was. I'm like, well, okay. Yeah, no. Big go beyond you, you know, like oh you've changed from school. Like or the worst one, I get this quite a bit actually, is um where people want something. You know, because like just because you've gone in a certain direction, a lot of people that I hung around with are still sort of doing what we did when we were kids. I'm sure. Haven't changed, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure you've got yourself there's quite a lot. And and I think that happens a lot, you know, in anywhere, but um, and mostly know it from Manchester. But then people know that you've done well the amount of times it's like, oh, can you be the guarantor on my apartment? Dude, I have not really seen you since I was 18 years old. I've still not seen you. You sent me a message on Facebook, yeah, yeah. And then all of a sudden your Facebook blows up. Oh, fucking Chris Ganners. Really? Yeah, I haven't got that.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 54:07

So you just gotta drown that out and just keep going.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

Stay directional.

SPEAKER_04 54:13

I have to change my number every three years.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Do you really?

SPEAKER_04 54:16

Yeah. So my phone number's not my WhatsApp number.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 54:20

Because the WhatsApp I've kept.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

That explains this morning. I tried to WhatsApp, yeah. We were we were trying to discuss this. Does he not use WhatsApp? He's a tech guy.

SPEAKER_04 54:30

Yeah, no, so my WhatsApp. Oh, sorry. Yeah, no, so my WhatsApp stayed the same old number, but my phone number I changed it every couple of years. Right, got it.

SPEAKER_03 54:42

It makes total sense.

SPEAKER_04 54:43

You know, enough people find it out. You just yeah, and then it's it's one of them things with with sticking your head above the parapet. It's one of them things with the mild amount of success. You know, I'm sure everybody's gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

Yeah, as soon as you stick your head up slightly, you start to get hated.

SPEAKER_04 55:00

Do you know what I've noticed as well? I know I'm totally gone off in a tangent, but I told you, I don't take Adderall. Um the there's quite a lot of the people that have put their head above the parapet for business all seem to come from here.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

What do you uh from Manchester?

SPEAKER_04 55:17

Yeah. Or from up north.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

Yeah. What do you mean, like say Stephen Bartlett?

SPEAKER_04 55:22

Yeah, save like Dominic, yeah, even Hannah, um, you know, who else would I say? Ben, but Ben, I know he's in Birmingham, but I'm pretty much hung around here.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Um, yeah, just like we were talking before about Lad Bible, yeah. Because they were all similar time where you were all starting businesses.

SPEAKER_04 55:39

Yeah, yeah, all at the same time, all in the same street, all on Dale Street.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:43

Um yeah, you know, even the Kamanis, um, I know um Mr. McMah uh non Kamanis and McMoods. Yeah, you know, like I know Carol and him aren't together anymore, but they're you know, just like even the Sons and them putting themselves out there and stuff like that. I don't know. There's a there's a there's a thing here.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

There's a lot of good stuff happening here, isn't there? Yeah, and I think it's kind of been forgotten, hasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:12

You know, like if you're gonna name 20 big companies in the UK, I reckon ten of them you're gonna name are gonna come from here.

SPEAKER_01 56:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:20

Or 20 of the most well-known companies, do you know what I mean? And like even uh just up north, you know. I know it's a total tangent, you didn't even ask me a question. But but yeah, I know Greg's comes from Newcastle.

SPEAKER_01 56:35

Greg, no, I didn't know that either, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:37

And that um Asda comes from Leeds.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

And the two brothers, uh what they the Essa brothers?

SPEAKER_04 56:43

Yeah, so they didn't found it.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

No, but they've uh put up a lot of stuff, haven't they? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:47

I think they've sold it again now.

SPEAKER_01 56:49

And petrol stations as well, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_04 56:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, the two billionaire.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like just so much stuff that really good stuff happening.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

I I love it.

SPEAKER_04 56:57

I think what's a big company in Liverpool? Uh put me on the spot there. I don't know. Liverpool bubble. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 57:09

We'll we'll edit one in. There will be one.

SPEAKER_04 57:13

Yeah, there will be. But like, yeah, just like yeah, it's quite nice to just No, I love it. I think we need to remind ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

Totally, totally. We've uh we've come to the end of our time together, Chris. It's absolutely flown by honestly. I love like your patriotism, like the just the energy to build. Like we have we've done so much of it in the past, and then we kind of lost it a bit. I think we've just tried to please everybody else a bit too much, and I love the fact that you're on this like mission to bring it back.

SPEAKER_04 57:40

Let's see how it goes.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

Thank you so much um for for coming on today. It's been unbelievable. I'm gonna be looking out as well in the papers then to see what's to watch McDown Paul. No, not at all. Like interested to see what tangents they pull up and whatever they write about.

SPEAKER_04 57:56

I mean, I've always been a truth teller, I'll tell the truth. So whatever it is, we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

Love it. Thank you so much, Chris.

SPEAKER_04 58:03

Pleasure, thank you.