"I Was £24,000 In Debt: This Is How I Cleared It In 18 Months"

What would you do if you found out you were £24,000 in debt — and on track to spend the next 7 years digging yourself out?

That's the reality Sammy Elard King faced at 25, sitting on a beach in Vietnam. One conversation with a friend forced him to do the maths and the numbers were devastating. He had minus £24,000 to his name and no real plan to change it. 18 months later, the debt was gone.

In this episode of Focus on Fun Stuff, Emma Mills sits down with Sammy founder of Up the Gains and the Gains FinTech app to unpack exactly how he did it, why the financial education system has failed most of us, and what you can do right now to start rewriting your financial story.

What you'll take away:

• Why your spending habits might be working against you without you realising
• The side hustle approach that clears debt faster than your salary ever will
• How to invest simply without becoming obsessed with trading charts
• The mindset shift that turns financial overwhelm into a clear, actionable plan
• Why building a true community (not just followers) is your biggest business asset
• How Sammy raised £285,000 and put 15,000 people on a waitlist before his app even launched

This is the financial education your school never gave you honest, practical, and completely jargon-free.

If you've ever felt like money is a system you weren't taught to play this one's for you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Focus on the Fun Stuff, the podcast for business owners who want to build a business that they actually love. I'm your host, Emma Mills, seven figure founder of MyPA, the UK's leading virtual PA support agency. And since 2008, MyPA has helped thousands of business owners to buy back their time, get out of the weeds, and focus on what matters most. And every week on the podcast, I'm sharing my own journey, live as it happens, and interviewing other business owners who've been exactly where you are now. And we're sharing practical tactics and real strategies to help you build a business that works for you, not the other way around. Sammy Ellard King, welcome to Focus on the Fun Stuff.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

I am really excited to focus on some fun stuff.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

I feel like we are going to have some fun. Yeah. So to introduce you, Sammy, you are the founder of Up the Gains. You are the um host of the podcast, Gains, or Up the Gains.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

You've just created an app called Gains. People are going to be like, what is this? Is this muscle game? Is it like, what is it?

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Definitely not with me.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Um and you basically have created a whole ecosystem audience, content businesses, fintech business out of a personal debt problem that you had coming out of uni 15 years ago, is that now?

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Oh gosh, 15 years ago. What? It doesn't feel like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Um there's so much to go through. Like you've created a huge following audience, you're the mission that you're on as well to help people in the UK actually have better financial knowledge. I was reading one of your LinkedIn posts today where you're like, actually, people are taught Pythagoras's theorem, but not just how to manage money and manage their lifestyle. But everything you've created, this business and the podcast, the content, it all kind of stemmed back to a moment that you had on a beach in Vietnam.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

I understand. Can we like go into what this was, what happened?

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Yeah, uh, so a friend of mine, um, I've got this weird group of friends. We all say it like everyone is like super high up in a business, either a head of department or like a really successful entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

There's a weird, like 10 of us in this WhatsApp group, and all of us are killing it in some way, shape, or form, which is just mad because we're all like really close friends. Usually, like one or two like does goes on to do something, or um and is this from a high school group of friends as well? No, so I met them really young when I first moved back to London. Wow. And I sort of so a lot of them went to school with each other, and I fell into their friendship group somehow, and they just sort of adopted me. Um but it's so yeah, within that group, and there's one guy called the chairman, right? And he as you can tell, he's like the boss guy. Um, everyone loves him, and he's a really lovely chap, but he he's done really, really well from an extremely young age. Um and we went away, uh, his brother lives in Australia, and it was his brother's 30th, and he just said to me, Do you want to come travel into Vietnam? And I was like, Absolutely. So a few of us went over, it was like a few lads, and we just sort of went mental and driving across the country. And um I had used a credit card to get there, and so I was quite badly in debt, and I hadn't told anyone about this, and so it was quite late, it was about 3 a.m. in the morning, a few very cheap uh Vietnamese cocktails, if you've ever had them, is uh let's just say they blow your socks off. Um, and everyone else had gone to bed. I mean, we'd hide this villa um and it was beautiful, and you could walk straight out onto the beach and near a place called Hoyan. If anyone's been there, it's absolutely incredible. It's like a river that goes through it, and they ever every night they light lanterns and the lanterns go down the river, it's like super cute. Um, but he said to me, he said to me, like we were sitting there and we were chatting about money and we're just having a little chat, and he said, Oh, like when do you want to retire? And I was like, Oh, 50 would be nice.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

And how old were you at this point when you were in Vietnam?

SPEAKER_03 3:50

25.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Right, 25, okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Um, and he goes to me, Oh, you I said 50. And I was like, I think you know, throw a number out there when I was 25. You sort of thought you'd retire early, and I always thought I'd be super successful and do something, and I didn't know what. Um, and then he said, Oh, when do you want to pass away? And I was like, Oh, that's an odd question. But uh 80, uh, I said to him at the time, so he's like, Oh, that's 30 years. If you take uh the number that you're spending now and you times that by 30, do you have that amount? And I I was like, No, and he was like, Well, then that's what you've got work towards to be able to retire. And if I just say, for example, now that's 30 grand a year, yeah, if I'm gonna live for that 30 years, I'm gonna need 900 grand, and I was minus 24.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

So you were minus 24 in debt, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Nine is 24,000 in debt at the time, and that was built up through from university, getting dumped there, shooting over draft and a credit card on day one, yeah, and being brought up without really being taught the value of a pound. I was brought I was, you know, I didn't want for anything when I was younger. I was like uh you know, I had a really nice upbringing, but like and money just wasn't spoken about, it wasn't installed into me. I've since come to learn that my parents were like on the float as well and like juggling and credit cards and doing things, and just I think that's definitely got passed on to me and I didn't realise it. Um and um I just poured out to him on this beach and I just said like I'm actually like really badly in debt and I don't really know what to do about it.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Right.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Um so about a third of my wages were going on interest payments. Oh wow, and so I was just like in this real hole, and he said, Well, you need to start learning about some like to get yourself out of it. And I was like, Yeah, cool. And I that's kind of where the conversation ended, but it stuck so like the rest of the holiday, I just had this like I've got to sort it out, I've got to sort it out. And I came back, and then everyone says, Oh, you must have just flicked the switch that day. And I think it was, I think it was like like the spark was lit under the boiler, if you want to call it that. It took a while to heat up. But um the way I look at it is that like it gave me the like belief that I needed to come back and make a change, and that if I was carrying on down that path, then I was just gonna get worse and worse and worse and worse, and either you know, bankrupt or have to write up all off all the debt, which was gonna just whack my credit score for a number of years, which I could have done at that point, but I didn't want to do that. I didn't feel that I didn't feel that didn't feel right. Um and I and I went on this journey and I managed to clear it in 18 months, so it was a it was tough, but I got it done.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Oh my god. And did you clear it in 18 months in the same because were you employed at this point?

SPEAKER_03 6:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

We did were you in the same job clearing the day.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Yeah, yeah. So I worked it out that if I'd had just done it from my job alone and like cut everything completely out, like talking all social life and just basically beans on toast forever, uh, which sounds crap, right? Um, it would have taken me over seven years to do, and I just was like, I'm not I'm not alright with that.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

No.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

And so I was like, How do I do this? And I'd always started businesses, I was I always had businesses since I was little, and I just absolutely love growing businesses and always had little side hustles here and there. I've never been like a one-income guy. I'm always like, Oh, what's that? Let me go and try and do that. Or if someone's like, I need help with social media for my business, I'm like, I can do that in the evenings. I've always been like that.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Um, so I just put that into play. I was like, let's go. Um, so I I mainly did like quite a lot of side hustles. I started my little like social media um online business. I'd help like um, so I was helping my main mate's building firm, I was helping an e-commerce brand, I was doing loads of little like side jobs, a few hundred quid here, a few hundred quid there, and it just got to that point and I just accelerated it away really fast.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

Um, and yeah, it was it was wild. And then once I got to back to zero, it was like, well, what do I do now? Like I but I was already on that kind of I was compounding in the right way rather than the wrong way. Yep. So it just really kicked me on. Um, but during that journey I just got obsessed with learning about money.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Oh really?

SPEAKER_03 7:51

And then I was like talking to friends and family, and you know when you feel like everyone knows something and you don't, and then I was having a chat with them, and then I was like, Oh, you don't know this stuff, and they're like, No, but we would love to. And I'm like, ah, and that just sort of always sat with me, and it it wasn't until we had COVID that I really acted on that, um, because that's when everyone went to know about money, and I was like, Well, I know all this stuff, and that's where I started to put it into play.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

And so you cleared this debt down by basically just grafting as well, having ideas, creating businesses, creating something out of nothing, which I love. Um when you say like learning about money, and people were going, I don't know what you're talking about, what kind of things are you talking about, which you then put into practice in up the gains?

SPEAKER_03 9:02

So all things around like how to manage your money, so like systems for like when your money comes in, because I'm rubbish with money now, and I'll openly say that like if you take me in a farm shop, I will whack as much as I possibly can. The worst place you walk out of like five items and a hundred pound bill, but you're so happy. So, like I'm still bad now. Um, but I so I have to put certain things in place to stop me from doing from being the person that I am, because keeping more of my money um is is more important to me. So it was things like asking myself questions like, Am I buying this because a marketing campaign or society is telling me that I need to buy a social social status? Because that was my problem. I was peacocking, I had the clothes, the bags, the shoes, the going out all the time and thought I was the man. But did that provide me any value? No, it was just making me look like an absolute bed end. So there's that, right? You asked yourself that question, then there was anything over a hundred pounds, I wait 24 hours. So I stopped myself with the dopamine rush of like, yeah, oh my god, I want that thing now, I leave it in the basket, and the little hack is they usually send you a 20% off code as well, so you then have to go back through that whole journey with yourself again. Um, but if you do end up wanting it, you get it cheaper. Um, and that alone was like this these little catalysts. But what I started really getting into was like how um investing is extremely complicated for the average person, but actually, when you really break it down, it's extremely simple, it's just sold in a way that makes you feel like you need to be looking at these trading charts and screens, and actually for the average person, they can just set it up and forget about it. Yeah, and and that really enamoured me. I was like, no one's talking about that, yeah. And I was like, especially from the UK, they weren't. There was loads of Americans in America. There's like hundreds of personal finance creators, and we had Martin Lewis at the time, and that was it. Um, so I was like, there's a big opportunity to go and talk about this stuff because he's not, and I just I know that you know we had to understand how people work and psychology, and I felt like I had that because I run hospitality businesses. Okay, so my whole life was bars, clubs, dealing with people every day, different walks of life, and that teaches you so much about how to communicate with certain people, yeah, and breaking things down because especially when someone's drunk, like you have to speak to them in a way that they're just gonna get through to them. Um and that's exactly what I started to put into like the content. So, yeah, really around investing, around um money management, savings accounts, and how they work because everything that existed was so complicated and it still is, um, and that's why a lot of people don't do it. They do the whole like bury the head in the sand, I'd rather not deal with it.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

And I'm interested then, so when so was it in COVID when you kind of started to put some momentum behind this?

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Did you think about I'm sure you did, the did you just start creating content, start talking about it, or did you when you said like there was a huge opportunity here, did did you think, but how am I going to monetize this? Like how what which came first? Kind of did you just start showing up talking about it? Are people reacting? Are people wanting this? Or you were like, actually, no, this is how I'm gonna make money out of it.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

So because I when I run hospitality businesses, I um I ran them with friends, the other two were um operations and finance, and I did the marketing and branding, and basically being the guy that would show up to the events and be like, Hey, how are you? Welcome, like that type of thing. Um, they called me the showman back then, which was probably fair.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Chairman, the showman, you've all got like names in your screen.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

Um, but that that's kind of what I had to do. I was there very much like the faces of the businesses, um, and um you know I was good at it. And so I think when I started to understand the money stuff, it came from a place of actually just really realizing that like people just needed a bit of help. Um, and when when COVID came around, because sort of why I was doing the marketing stuff, I started writing and I knew that if you put like back when blogging was a thing, right? Blogging was massive for a while, everyone had a blog, um, but it got real traffic, and so I was like, well, if I write the if they're telling me what the problem is, that's the title of the article. And if I write the article and put it on a website and it starts to get traffic, well then this is a thing. So I tested myself, and so in COVID, I had like a WhatsApp group, and it started out with a few mates and people that I knew that would like needed help or wanted to be a part of it. Um, and then it like as COVID sort of went on, it grew and it grew and it grew, and people got stuck, can I add can I add XYZ? And I'd just be like, Yeah, because it was just basically like free content ideas for me, and then I'd write the article based on their question and then send them the article in the group and then put it up on my website, and then all of a sudden the website just went really and I was like, Okay, I've really this is mad. Like, I've got a decision to make here. Do I carry on in hospitality or do I go all in with this? And I kind of sided it for a c for a little while and then did it.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

And so just in hospitality, what were you doing then?

SPEAKER_03 14:09

So we run music clubs, um, music, music venues, um, bars, restaurants, uh, all across London.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Was so was that something you were like, you had to go, I'm either stepping away from this or oh wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

Yeah, it got to that point because it it it kept growing. Yeah. And it and then we when we started doing social media content, like that really took off because I think we were talking about it from like an everyday person's perspective, and it was going back to that like simplifying it for the everyday person was our mantra. And I think that we really hit the nail on the head with that. That I'm not a suit, I'm not financially like I'm not a financial advisor, I don't sit there with like a stiff kind of tone. Yeah, I talk to people like I'm one of them because I am, and I've walked the walk, I've been in debt, I know what it feels like, and so I brought that into the content, and I think people really resonated with it. So I think we just got in the right place at the right time. Like everyone was obsessed with personal finance and investing during COVID and riding that wave out of it.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

And there was so much attention, wasn't there? Because everyone was just especially at the like in that uh in 2020 when people were at home, or it was it was just everybody was like looking at the phones, weren't they?

SPEAKER_03 15:19

And yeah, like consuming. And had loads of money because of furlough.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

Like they just weren't spending anything.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yeah, and mortgage payment pauses, they happened for like three months, didn't they? And yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

And should I think about investing it? What should I do with it? And I shouldn't make use of it. And I thought that like that really helped me get started, and so that was kind of the journey over. And I fell into hospitality, like my mum does does it, my dad does it, my granddad and my my other mother Nan does it as well. Like, so I just felt like it's been my whole life being around venues, it's all I knew. So I felt comfortable in that environment. It's not like I went to university to study hospitality and do that career, like that's just not what I did. I love music, and so I like you know, being around bands and and nightclubs like that, it just felt really comfortable. And but money when I found it was like, you know, obviously, you know, this is the fun stuff. Like it felt like I'd found the thing that had called me out somewhere, and it made a lot of sense because I had a story I could lean on, and so I was like, Oh, this is just and every time I did it, because I was building something from like ground zero, it just I always liken this now. My other half says I work too much, and I'm like, it literally feels like I'm playing Xbox all day.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Like, I feel like I'm playing a game and I'm playing the game of life, but I'm helping people as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

And so I I get to play a game, but the game helps someone, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I feel like that is so powerful. Oh, and when you get that in a business, I don't feel like it ever you ever feel like you're at work. You just feel like you know, I get to come do cool stuff like this, and it's just awesome.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Um, I think that is like the ultimate, no matter what anybody says, whether it's you know, people are money driven, or I just think what you've just said there is the utopia for everyone because that everything else is so much easier, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 17:17

Yeah, and I come to realise now there was a study done, I think it was a UGOF study, or maybe at Atopol, and they studied I think it was over 25,000 people in the UK, and within that study, 91% of them disliked their job.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

And I just found that really sad because I'm like, I know what it feels like when you don't. Um I do know what it feels like when you do as well. Yeah. Because I've definitely had jobs over the years where I'm like, get me the hell out of here, or what am I doing here? But you just do it because you need the money. But I think people go through that their whole life, they get stuck in this rut and they don't ever explore the thing which is probably knocking away inside of them.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

And so, you know, nowadays I just think it's so important that you do that, even if you do it for a couple of hours a week, they'll literally be your most fun two hours of the week you'll have. And you don't have to make it into a business, it could just be a hobby. But I feel like a lot of people don't explore that about themselves, and I think it's really important.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Yeah. Well, just on that then, because I think you've hit the nail on the head. So you found something that you were really passionate about, you could advise on, you'd kind of lived it as well. And you just said about that like hobby element, which I guess it does feel a little bit like now, like you're just doing something you love. Just in terms of taking, I guess, expert knowledge and advice and monetizing it, like how did you you know, when you obviously at some point you stepped away from hospitality? Was that like, okay, well, it's gonna be, I don't know, brand deals from the socials? Because I know you've grown a big following now. Um was it like coaching? Is it like online courses and advice? Like, how did you what how did you what did you step into first? Like if somebody's got something now and they're like, Do you know what I could I could show up every day, I will show up, I'll start giving advice. But how do I monetize that into something that somebody will pay for?

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Yeah, it's a great question. I think I had slight knowledge of how it could become, but I had no idea how to, and that's like it's scary. Like, you know, I always knew that I could put bums on seats in a venue, but like when I'm getting people into my website and getting them to do something, that felt very different to me. So I learned. Um, but I knew that like affiliate is quite a lot, a big revenue stream for us. Um, so partnering with banks and and investment providers and savings accounts, and then driving the traffic into them, and then they sign up, we get a kickback for their sign-up. Like that was the first revenue stream that we really lent into, and because we had the traffic on the website, and then the social media was designed and originally to send the traffic into the website, but then we've since come to like add courses and brand deals and sponsorship and things like that, and that's where it's really sort of taken it off and allowed us to bring in a team so we can do those things and grow those channels even further, and add the podcast, add the YouTube channel, all of that jazz, and now a bloody app. I know I'm mental, but it's it's it's the evolution of it, like that's where it can go to. It's and uh, I think we said this outside. I've probably quit he in my head over a hundred times, but I just haven't allowed myself to because like yes, it's fun, but yes, it's also hard as well. So you just like should I do I give up? I'm not gonna give up because look how many people are are now involved, or how many part of the community, like they kind of rely on me for that information now. So I've got now got you kind of go past the point where it's like now I've actually got a responsibility to my community, to the people, like they rely on me to show up and and they they rely on me to answer the questions. And I think that that becomes it becomes a different game then. Um but when you're first starting out, like your first videos, your first website article, your first anything, it's gonna absolutely start first cake you bake. Yeah, everything's gonna be rubbish, and it's just like if you enjoy it, like sod it, just go and do it.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah, it's so good that I think you've hit the nail on the head, like you should enjoy it, but also it's gonna be hard. Like you can't create anything good without it being hard at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Um, so you love learning, you love kind of going on to the next level because now you are a fintech founder as well. Sounds sexy that it does. But you are, aren't you? You've now created an app which is eminently about to launch in a couple of weeks, I think.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Maybe, yeah. By the time it comes out, who this comes out, who knows? I don't know when this is coming out. But I keep saying that, and and and honestly, we went into this like super naive. Like I I I said I say it all the time, like naive and delusional, and I actually think that they're the two most important qualities for an entrepreneur because you're not scared, yeah. So you have no idea what you're walking into or the consequences of your actions. Yeah, you you don't know what you don't know, so you're you you you're sort of delusional about it that you can probably go and do it. Um, so you just go and do it, and you and then you walk into it and you go, Well, now I've taken the step and I can't go back. Yeah. If I could, I probably would. Because it's been a long road. Like I I can't code, and I've never written a line of code. And if you put one in front of me now, my ADHD brain, I I I I have to like the team have their whole own. Dashboard. I have my own dashboard because my brain doesn't work like that. They have all these big lists and texts, and if I look at that, I'm like, nah, phone me and talk me through it, and I'll be able to concentrate on it. But I just can't work like that.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:02

Um, so coding for me is just isn't right. But if you show me how something looks and visual and ideas about how I want it to do, I can I can do those things. Um, so I'm very much the ideas man, and then we have my my CTO Daniel, who's incredible, um, who is kind of uh saying to you earlier, like, I have to say to him, explain this to me like I'm five, because I have no idea what you're talking about. And but over this 11 months, I've learned probably the most of my in my entire life. Like, I didn't know how to raise money, I'd never raised a pound. I walked into that completely naive, thinking, yeah, we'll get a million quid easy. Absolutely no chance, like it's brutal. Um, you basically feel like you're you're showing up on people's doorsteps like begging for money, like please invest in my little idea, please. It is awful, but you do, you do it because you need to. Um, and uh and actually building a product, a fintech product, is is is is really hard. Yeah, I'm sure. And yeah, just like dealing with comp legals and compliance, and like the I I spent the whole of last week doing contracts and legals. It was the worst week of my life, um, but it's done now, it's out of the way. And we've got to the point now where it's close, and we've got about 15,000 on the wait list, and it should hopefully uh do what it says on the tin.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

It's so amazing. These kind of conversations are just I feel like for somebody listening who's maybe got a bit of an idea, and just to hear somebody go, I'm just gonna try it and find my way through. And now, is it 12 months later, like you're nearly ready to launch? And and like if if somebody is thinking, you know, I've got an idea, although everybody now is an app, uh they've got like an idea for an app that they're creating in Replit or Lovable or whatever, or in Claude aren't they? Everybody's now creating something that they're gonna sell, which they're definitely not gonna sell. Yeah, um, but like if somebody has got an idea for something, which you can, to be fair, test at a low level in that, but like you're actually creating a full business here in it. I don't know, just what would your advice be? Like, how did you just literally learn by just asking, reaching out to your network, asking people? Like, there is no manual for these things, is there?

SPEAKER_03 25:07

So yeah, yes, you said we're we're at 12 months. We said we originally said we would do this in 90 days. We originally said we raise a million quid, we raised 285k. So, like, that's the where we're at. Yeah, like it and it's just like well, just just just go for it, man. Like, I'm not one of those people like I'm just like, well, if we live this life, right? I do not want to be that guy that was like, Oh, I regret anything. Like, if someone's like, Do you want to try this? I always try it. If you're not try this food, I'll try it. Why? Because like, why not? Like, yeah, like, oh no, that sounds awful. Like, I just every time I see those types of people, I'm like, come on, like you can you just do it, man. Like, why not? Um, obviously, if someone's like, Do you want to jump off this 80-foot cliff with me? I'm like, I've got my limits, but you know, I think it especially in business. Um, and I I actually think also just to throw like another side of that in, it's like um you can end up getting shiny objects in Droma Touch. And I've definitely been like a part of that. Certain things come out, new channels come out, and I'm like, I've got to jump on that, I've got to do that, I've got to do that. And you, you know, in the next month's revenue figures, and you look at them and you go, Why are we down? Um, well, it's because you've been spending two weeks trying to figure out that platform, mate. Oh, right, yeah, you're totally right. So it can happen too in that regard.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

So honestly, that is so important. I've been talking about this so much recently, because I think AI is now the big shiny object syndrome for every business owner, isn't it? And they all think I need to be doing something with it. And actually, loads of people will be spending hours with stuff that's a bit broken, doesn't really go anywhere, and you'll be like, Oh, I forgot to do all the things that I should be doing in my business.

SPEAKER_03 26:45

I think it's just like a really, really perfect point that because you feel like now with AI, you should be doing 10 times more than you were, but actually what you were doing before was totally fine, and you could probably just make a few improvements on your productivity here and there and help it like I like to think of AI now to like buy back my time.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

I used to be the eight the person that would do the 16 to 18 hour days for seven days a week, and now I'm like, no, and I also think for entrepreneurs as well, especially. I can't take so I've been to so many net you're going to a networking event tonight, but I guarantee you in that room, like I challenge you, go and actually go and look and go and think about how many people their entire identity is their business. Um, and if you took that away from them, they actually there's nothing under the shell, and I think that's really dangerous because entrepreneurs do that, they go so hard and fast into that thing that that that's all that they have, and they sell the business if they get lucky and they do well, and they all have this like deep dark depression for an entire year and can't figure out who they are. So I was like, I kept seeing that being a recurring theme, and I was definitely going down that road with up the gains. It was just like I wouldn't let myself do anything else, and that was all I wanted to do all day, and it was fun, I enjoy it, but at the same time, like I've got a partner, I've got a dog, I've got a family, I've got friends, and they're really important too. But so that is having an another hobby as well. I'm like like I I'm part of teams, um, I like my garden, I like messing about with vegetables and like growing them, and I love cooking. So I lean into that too. And so I always clock off at seven o'clock now, like and I just don't you just can't contact me. Like I just will not do it.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

So you mean like you clock off on all kind of like apps, communication, responding to stuff, not just like literally from work but from communication.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Yeah, so I've got a brick. Have you seen those? No, they're class, they change my life. So um I've got I built an office out a sort of studio outside in the garden, and I've got a brick now, and so when I um leave, I scan the brick and it blocks all the apps on my phone, and I cannot get into them without going back into my office and scanning my phone, and then it opens all my apps back up again.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Does that feel a bit like itchy at first when you first start? You just want to go back and scan the thing again.

SPEAKER_03 29:10

Your your ears go all red and you go all hot. You do, yeah. But I started with like apps that I knew I wouldn't care about, right? And slowly I've layered more in. And like the the guys now know like if it's an emergency, they have to actually physically phone me. Okay, because they if they whatsapp me or slap me, I won't see it.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

That's brilliant. That's a really great idea.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

It's more present with your partner and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

Like I if I want to go and watch the telly now, I've watched the telly because I used to sit there and watch the telly, and we all do it, right? We just sit there with Instagram and then we're all sort of like uh so we're not actually watching what we're consuming and stuff, and I just I don't know, I just found it as it helped me and I sleep better. Do you um so I sleep loads better because I can have my like a lot of people say, put your phone in the other room. I don't need to do that because it's just all blocked. So I just put it next to me and I can't I can't use it anyway, I can't scroll. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

How inju uh do you think it's been like better for your attention as well? Just yeah, really.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

Yeah. And just way more intentional a little bit now. I still have a scroll in the middle of the day, like if I'm in the office or whatever, and I just sit there and you find yourself doing it, you're like, what am I in? You put it down, but just that it in the morning and night, it just I'm like it there's not there. So now when I'm going on it, because I'm I run a social media business and yeah, I could spend my entire life on it otherwise. Yeah. Now when I'm on it, I'm like, okay, I'm here to engage with a few posts on a few things. I'm like, I'm in engagement mode or I'm in posting mode, content creation mode, and uh trying to optimise for everything. We're both wearers, like we were just trying to do but it does help, and uh I don't know, you've got to try and get your wins where you get where you can, I suppose, and that's that really helps me.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

I love that. I'm gonna get one of those. What time when you say you log off at seven, what time do you log on?

SPEAKER_03 30:52

Uh see that's that's where I'm a bit weird. So I'm up at like half four or five. Oh yeah, just naturally, yeah, just like ping wide awake. Um and I think that only happened uh like over the past sort of three, four years. Before I you couldn't get me out of bed until like if you left me, I'd sleep till one o'clock. Um but I'm so excited to get going.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

And so I'm like, let's go. And since I've done it, now I wouldn't change it for the world because no one no one says anything for like four hours. It's dead quiet. Like the dog is even just like, mate, go away.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

And like I just find that that's my like sacred time. So I I actually do like a lot of my writing um and like content creation work more on the sort of planning and that type of thing in the morning because my brain's really active, and in the afternoon I do the boring stuff, basically.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

I love that. I'm a big I'm a big fan of saying like you don't have to get up early, like you should work at the times at work for you, but there is something beautiful about five to eight, seven because nobody else is up. There's just something special about it, isn't there? Because you just know you're not gonna get contacted by anyone.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

But I know it sounds like the like typical, oh my god, like not another guy, like he's cold ice bathing, he's on the phone. Yeah, no, totally.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

That's why I just yeah, it doesn't have to be like the 5am club and all that. Like you are naturally waking up, but it is nice to have that.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

But I am out like a light at nine, like yeah, okay, yeah. So you really and yeah, my partner, she stays up late, she loves like watching telly till late, and I just can't do it. So I'm just like snoring away next to her when it's jabbing you like when you turn it down.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Um, just on the app as well, I just was wanted to touch on something we were just chatting about outside. So you've raised money, you've built this app, which for lots of people would sound extremely scary and overwhelming. But can we just talk about how you've like with the distribution of the app, like how you've kind of prioritised that before building something, which I think is really important for lots of people, because lots of people can waste money on building something that actually nobody wants, and just how you've approached that.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Yeah, so if you like if you look at it in both ways, I think you can not have an audience and still do this. I still think it's important that you do s build an audience before you build the product or simultaneously do that, yeah, even if it takes you a little bit longer. And the reason for that is is that you get to speak to a lot of people. Um, and whether that's hosting a podcast or doing a YouTube channel or whatever that might all be, you're gonna see comments and things like that come in. Obviously, over time we've got like a community and mailing list, people write back to us, we do we survey our audience quite a lot to speak to them and understand what their pain points are. So, over that course of that four years, like I've had so many conversations with people about like oh, you should build something like this, and it kept coming up, it kept coming up, it kept coming up, and eventually I was like, you're right, okay, fine, I'll I'll I'll do it. Um, and but just by having those conversations, and you could have no audience and still have loads of conversations with people, yeah, and I think that that's what founders don't do enough. They have this idea in their head of this like incredible app, and it's now so easy with clawed code to like have it built in a couple of days or at least a prototype of it.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 34:13

Um but it could just be a load of rubbish, right? Like, and I think that's really dangerous. And you know, um I know you've had Daniel Priestley on, he's like, go and speak to a hundred people and ask them what they want, um, and get them to fill out a survey or a form or a wait list. And that's how you'll know um whether or not your idea is any good, and then go and build it. Um, but distribution's massive, so obviously we have the audience in play. But now to get to profitability with a fintech app, you probably need roughly between about 15 and 20,000 active users to actually make it semi-decently profitable. Um, so until then you're burning cash, and that's if you're lucky, and that's like good metrics. And so for us to for it to make sense, we have to have a massive content engine to drive that amount of users or an enormous amount to spend on paid ads, right? We don't want to spend money on paid ads because we'd have had to have raised a bigger portion, uh say a million quid or a couple million quid, but we'd have had to have given away a massive amount of the business. So by having uh organic channels, podcasts, social media channels, LinkedIn, newsletter, etc., we can push a lot of traffic into the app on day one when we're ready.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

And that gives us the ability to like make the that that journey from like start to profit really small. Um, so it's a it is a hack. Um, and I just think as well, when you create content in the space that you're building in, you really understand your audience a lot more because you understand the topics which hit you, you you know where their pay points are because they tell you in the comments, they message you, you start having conversations, and it really does help.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

And just on that topic then about uh engagement and community, so it's a really um hot conversation now in terms of AI is almost pushing businesses into much more human-centric, everybody's loving relationships, real people, real things, and community now is like the big topic that every business should be treating their customers and audience like a community.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Um, and I think for a lot of business owners that's difficult if like you're not like you're not running like a stereotypical membership, or I just wondered how like do you consider your social followers a community, or do you like funnel them into something where they kind of all engage inside a gated place, or how do you treat that in your business?

SPEAKER_03 36:41

It's a great question. So a lot of people do call their social media following a community, and I I I don't I don't I don't think it's that. I think once they've come once they've handed something over to you, i.e. their name and email really, then you can pull them into your world. Okay. Because then you can have direct communication with them and send them to things which are valuable to them. So what we do is when people come through, they do um it's it's called a it's called a quiz funnel, essentially. Daniel Pretty so big on this, basically stole it from him. Um but they answer questions and then they get sent in different directions, which actually is helpful for them. So different emails get uh pre-written emails get written out, and then so if they're like hot on saving, they're not we're not gonna send them debt content because they're doesn't make sense for that individual. Yeah, so we do that and then segment it down, and then we can send different messages. And by doing that, you can build a relationship with that person, you can send them to different pieces of content so they spend more time with you, and then when you do finally show them a product, which is again crafted for that kind of area, they're like, Yeah, this guy gets me. Um, and then in the products, we're big on community, so that in the products themselves, in the programs, we have communities attached to each course, and that's where we can do group coaching calls, we do um, they have like chat function within there, they can ask questions, and we want the team or myself will answer them, and that's where we can build like really tight relationships. Um, but yeah, I don't know if social media following is a community, and I I'm a I'm a big p proponent of um social media's rented land, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so get them off the platform as fast as you possibly can, because you never know when that algorithm changes. Like we all had it with TikTok, it was massive, yeah, and then now you can have a million followers on TikTok and your next video does two thousand views, which means you've got nothing um in r in in reality unless you've got them on a mailing list, and so I think it's so important.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Yeah, and just then in because that it's totally true about TikTok. Um, that a million followers on there isn't considered in the same way as a million followers on Instagram, that's right, isn't it? It's like it's two different beasts. Was there a specific way you chose which platforms you were going all in on? Like, I don't know, like even yesterday I was watching Gary V talk about like now if you're not doing YouTube Shorts and got a Substack newsletter, you're not gonna be found by Gemini. And it's like there's so many different places you can put your attention. Like, how do you approach that? Are you like this one place is my place, or like do you kind of make sure you repurpose everything across everything?

SPEAKER_03 39:11

Or yeah, yeah. So like I I'm I think with short, if you make a piece of short form, then you can put it on pretty much all of them. Yes, they all have their own little nuances, and some types of content do better on others, and it's a never-ending game. But once you feel like you figured it out, well, guess what? They change the bloody algorithms. Well, how am I supposed to know? You know, like and then all of a sudden you're then fighting and working that out again. And some people have are willing to go down that road. I'm not, like, I just want to make a cool video that's gonna help someone, and I'm if I'm happy with it and it goes viral on one of the platforms, uh then great. But sometimes you make a great video and it goes viral on all of them, and it's just a great video because it's a hit the top net on the topic for a certain piece of content. But we were saying this, like it can literally be the video that you pick up your iPhone selfie and you thought something in your head and you say it to the camera and you think ah it's not gonna do anything, and it does. Yeah, like what the hell? The piece of content I just spent five hours editing has just done like 2,000 views. What the hell is going on? Like, why is that the case? And it can just be like how you're feeling in the moment, your delivery, the topic, you just sometimes you just land on it, but you it's about consistency, and I I do agree with Gary in a lot of ways. I feel like you can be everywhere now, especially with short form, because you can just basically post them across all of them. Um, but I would also just hone that back for people because I think it's it can be quite a bad message for someone who's just getting into business or is perhaps uh running a business and feel like they need to get more into personal brand or or socials, yeah. Um, because being everywhere is actually a really bad strategy at the start, and that's because everybody's like ICP or target customer lives in a completely different world, yeah, and usually they live in different social media platforms mostly. Like, imagine for you, LinkedIn's quite a huge audience, right? Yeah, and so and for me it's Instagram and TikTok as such, but I hate TikTok, so that's also a question I have to ask myself. I'm like, do I want to be on TikTok? The answer is no, like so you hate it, yeah. Oh my god, I just because I my life goes, I'm just down rabbit holes of like watching comedians basically roast people, and I'm like, what am I doing? And it's great fun, but like also, yeah, what shit to do, man. And I don't know the algorithm as well. I don't I don't love it as much as Instagram, which I feel is much more me. I'm way more connected to Instagram. I've got a bit more of like affiliation with it, I suppose. And so you ask yourself where that world is, and then just go all in on that one platform, like do nothing else until you're good at it. Because if you do do what I did, which was go everywhere, it takes ages to figure them all out. Yeah, um, and then you're also way more likely to just pack it all in because you're gonna see really m like mediocre growth across them all. So I'm like, if you haven't nailed one, that's all you do. Like if you're doing your podcast, do your podcasts and the shorts for it, and that's it.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:14

Like rather than then going, oh, I now need to make a video about this, this, this, this, and do all of these things. Yeah, yeah. I think that's actually not helpful unless you've got unless you've got help or someone that really knows what they're doing to then guide you with that strategy. Um, but if you're just trying to figure it out, like that's I think that's really important, just one thing.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Yeah, and are you self-taught with this, with like growing a following?

SPEAKER_03 42:36

Yeah, yeah. If you you can scroll back now, watch the first videos, man. You laugh. I I cringe hard, I'm like, oh my god, like, but I was just And that's like five years ago, I guess. Like in the first video, yeah, yeah. Like I uh Instagram's some more like, yeah, more like four, yeah, yeah. And they're bad. They're bad, bad. Like scary bad. But it that's where you had to start. And then I was like, oh take that from that person, that's a really good idea. Oh, that I really like the way that they use their captions. That delivery was awesome. Oh, that guy puts music onto his videos. I like that, I'm gonna do that. No one does that in finance. Grab, grab, grab, grab, grab, grab. And Frank Sinatra says it. He says, if you steal from one person, it's stealing, but if you steal from everyone, it's research. And I just love that. And I was like, I am I'm stealing that. So that's what I do. I'm like, oh, that's a really cool idea. Like, I didn't know you could do that, or I'm gonna try it. Um, and I feel like when everybody starts, they want they feel like they have to have this like HD, gorgeous looking piece of content, which is and it's just no, just just improve one tiny little thing here, tiny little thing here. Now I'm gonna dial that bit up, now that bit, um, and you'll get there.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

So I think um it's on a lot of business owners' minds at the moment growing a following. I mean, everyone that I follow, to mention Daniel Priestley again, amongst many others, are talking about this now is the time to um grow your personal brand online because everybody's pumping out so much shitty stuff as well, like all of the AI stuff, that now is the time to really cut through with your message what you're doing. So I think there's a lot of business owners who are like, okay, I should be posting more content, valuable stuff. My question is when you say like go all in on one platform. So if somebody's like, okay, well, I know like LinkedIn or Instagram is my thing and I need to start posting every day, or to you what does it mean to you to go all in on one platform? So if somebody's listening to this, like, I want to grow an Instagram following, is it like, do you know what, mate? Really, you should be doing half an hour a day of a post, some interacting, like what was that kind of repetition like for you, you know, to properly get some traction going over a long period of time, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 44:49

Yeah, so I think with all of this, no matter if you're going into written LinkedIn content or um Instagram videos, is what a lot of people do is they attack every single piece of content. They go through the whole process, so they go through the idea, then the writing, then the filming, then the editing, and then background, and then background, and then background. And I just think that's can be extremely tiring. And also your first idea is usually your worst, and your tenth idea is usually your best. So batch every single part of the process. And even if it's even if we're doing a LinkedIn post now, I write like 30 ideas, and then I take the next day, I lit I let that marinate, and next day I then come back and I'm like, no, no, what was I thinking? Uh you know, are you high? Like, okay, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, um, and then I take probably 15 out of those, and then I write those 15 posts, and and by the time I'm working through post three, I'm into like, oh, how did I think of that line? That's really cool. Like, I managed to write that, like I didn't think I was that good a writer. Um, and you just get better and better and better each part of the process, um, and that's what I do with Instagram content. So for video, I do all of the ideas, then I write all the hooks for those videos, and that's all I do. And then the next time I do all of the like full scripts, and then I do a whole day of filming, and then a whole day of editing. Because by the time I get to the third, fourth or fifth video, I'm away, and it and it and it shows in the quality of it as well.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Oh, how interesting. And is there a particular well, I get it with the ideas like letting it marinade, because you can then come back to it. So then, like with writing the hooks, is there a particular reason why you kind of like all the hooks, and then are you saying like you have a gap and then you do the is there a reason why you keep having the gaps in between just to solidify just to break it up, just to break it up.

SPEAKER_03 46:47

I think like because it's you you if you when you do it in chunks, you just work in your in hook mode. Like, so if I'm in hook mode and I need to think of hooks, I and I go on Instagram, it's like being intentional. I'm like, one video, what was the hook? How do they deliver it? Write it down, who next? Oh, and then if I don't it doesn't catch me, and I just keep flicking, and I'm like, and then you stop, you go, why did I stop? And then start again. Like, so I do that, and so that's how I like start to take things in, and I do it with YouTube as well. I'm like, I go on the home page and I scroll, and I'm like, thumbnail made me stop. Okay, why did it make me stop? Like uh because it had a really flashy word or colour, and I write that down. Oh no, so like then you're then you're in that mode. Yeah, you're not then thinking, oh now I need to go and write the video and then film it and then edit it, because that's not gonna happen. You're just in hook mode, or you're in script writing mode, or whatever that might well be. And it just allows you to just get right in the zone because you're not having these, like we said it when you sit down and you're thinking about the lights and how you think, and how's my hair look? And have I got something in my teeth? And yeah, like that froze you when you come to do the performance of the videos. Um, and it's exactly the same with the individual tasks that you do, and so yeah, I batch absolutely everything, um, and it really does make a massive difference. And to sort of ask you a question, like now is the time to put your foot on the gas with this. We so those social media platforms are free, they're free, and look, they've changed my life, and I'm very thankful for them. Um, and you have that opportunity, and I just don't think you'll ever get that again. Like 20 years ago, this stuff didn't exist.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

Totally agree.

SPEAKER_03 48:24

You were buying ads and newspapers, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

Yeah, and that that is really, really helpful. I think the way you've kind of split that up, and then just in terms of like dedicated time per day, say you are filming, you filmed the stuff. Like, are you uploading, say right now, somebody's listening to this, they're not at your level, not got 250,000 followers, they got 500. Are you going like mate, like post once a day? Like, what do you think is like the bare minimum at the moment?

SPEAKER_03 48:50

Yeah, I will say this. I like so we we do a lot of work business owners, like we go in and we help them for half a day, and I love it because it's uh it's just time to like because they're always like, oh, but you know, like I've got to go and do this, and I'm like, whatever you're doing with social media right now, the answer is double it.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Really?

SPEAKER_03 49:06

Like always double it because it will pay off. Um, it's that compounding effect. And yes, you're gonna be rubbish right now, you're not gonna be in a year. If you're spending if you're running a business and your business suffers with leads, advertise more, do more offers, do more social media posts. It's pretty simple, right? Um because it's that shots and goal mentality. Like if you watch a game of football and it's nil-nil and no one's had any shots and goals, they just passed it around the whole time. Well, like it's pretty boring, but more shots, more goals, more opportunities, and it's that same same mentality when it comes to social media content. So I just think for founders especially, but anyone, if you're starting a business and you're working on it in the evenings and the weekends, and you're spending 90% of your time on product and 10% of your time on advertising, flip that around for a week and do it the other way around because eventually you're gonna really need to put the foot on the gas and you don't want to be learning when you've got the thing. Yeah. Um, so I just really think it's massively important. And every single business that we've gone into that's done this and put this into place and we've given the frameworks to and sold them to go and do these things, have got better and have now got more leads off the back of it. And I'm like, why didn't I do this before?

SPEAKER_01 50:23

From social specifically.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

Yeah, I'll give you an example. So my mate uh he has a channel called Dating with Jamie. Um, he has a app called Matter, which is a dating app. It's kind of um for neurodivergence and for people to meet, it's wicked. Um, struggles with lead flow, and then he stuck with it, bless him. He didn't get anything go viral, and this is the possibility for an entire year. He's putting out three or four videos a week so to answer your question. Like it's not every day, it's three or four a week. That's what he could uh do with his time, and then very recently it's been the new series of maths. Um, is it maths? Married at first sight?

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Oh, okay. Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 51:02

Maths? I think I was I was trying to be cool then.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:05

Yeah, yeah, you're right, you got it right. Alright, cool.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Um we'll edit that bit out then. I got it right, you got it right. I've never seen it.

SPEAKER_03 51:12

And then okay, cool. The Australian one's hilarious, by the way, definitely worth a watch. Um, but anyway, the new series of of um Married at First Sight's come out, and he's started doing like uh green screen with the person behind him, like and one of the scenes from it, and he's like commenting it, and he's had like five videos in a row, just got ultra ultra vibe.

SPEAKER_02 51:35

Really?

SPEAKER_03 51:36

And I just I messaged him and I was like, Well man, like three C's, you're like consistent, you smashed it, um controversial and and consistency, and then I was like, fourth one, congratulations, because like you could have given up and you didn't, and like now it's gone mental, and he's his app's got loads of downloads off the back of it, and I just think that's an amazing example of someone that like is persevere and eventually it'll work, um, because you'll just keep trying stuff, loads of stuff's gonna fail. And he could have got lucky and had something kick off after a month, um, but he also didn't, and still and now has got the payoff from it now. So it's it's you know, are you willing to go down that road for three years? And if you are, then you'll get there.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

That is such a great story because it I mean it's kind of come up quite a lot in this episode, just like you anything you enjoy, but you want it to be successful, it's also gonna be hard, and it is in that I think I can't remember if we said it in now or just outside, like it's in the doing of the keep posting of not getting any replies, not getting responses. That feels like should I stop? Or we were talking about maybe like wanting to quit the podcast when it feels like there's nothing coming back from it, and then you just keep going and good stuff happens.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

Do you know a really good thing is it's like message a few people that like your posts, especially earlier on, and just say, hey, like thank you so much for liking the post. I'm just wondering like what made you like it, and you start having a conversation with that person. Really an idea, and then you will see like those conversations. We say this to uh all of all of the people that we've coached over the years, like have 20 conversations with the first people, 20 people that like your posts, and just ask them like why did you like it? Like, what's uh what's a big problem that you're facing right now, and they will tell you stuff that will give you like the most biggest lease of life.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Oh, that is a brilliant idea.

SPEAKER_03 53:25

Because you're like, Wow, I feel like really motivated because they've they I don't know this person, yeah, just met them on the internet, and now and now I guarantee you also those 20 people that you have those conversations with will like every single one of the posts I'm going on and they start becoming Raven fans because they're like that he messaged me on the internet, like how mad is that? So they don't get that, so it's just like breaking the norms. It's the old like send a thousand letters through the mail because someone will phone you up off the back of it. It's the same mentality of like just put out loads of shots, especially at the start, and try and build like a core of like a thousand people. I call it a thousand Raven fans, Daniel Preesey, key person of influence, same same thinking. It's like get those core cult people that I put a post up on social media, I know 50 people are gonna like it, and like that's a good place to be in. Um gives you that.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

That is a most brilliant piece of advice. I feel like it's really good also for the business owner who's maybe got like a hundred followers, and there's that because it is still quality over quantity, isn't it? You want like 50 people who are just gonna buy the thing, like the thing, totally. So I think then having that like actual feedback from somebody to go, no, like what you've said has just helped, or that's a wicked piece of advice for someone that's like small in the numbers at the moment, totally.

SPEAKER_03 54:36

Because honestly, you put 100 people in a room, you'll be like, Whoa, yeah, you see it online, it's such a small consequence.

unknown 54:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

That's also another brilliant way to look at it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:47

I love it. It's it's just it's just these things are mad. Like we live online, it's just the way that we're like the world is right now. Yeah, but also just another thing is that it's just not that deep, man.

SPEAKER_00 54:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:58

Like it's really not that deep. I live like that too. Um, and I like I used to care so much, and now I'm just if something flops, I'm like, well, whatever, like, but what what can I learn from that instead of it being like the end of the world or like ruin my day, yeah, which it could do, because I've just put half my day into maybe making it or thinking about it, um, that can really ruin someone's like trajectory, and I'm just like, just don't do that, just sort of just put it down as like an L of and it's cool, but what can I learn from it? And just remember it's just all we'll we'll live on a fucking rock that's floating in the sky, so it's not our deep.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

Yeah, no, that honestly, oh Sammy, you've summed it up. This has been absolutely awesome. My head whipped around before I'm so we had two minutes left, so this is absolutely flown by. Um, Sammy, where can people find you online and also the app like if you want to get on the wait list, which I did just sign up to before? So I'm excited for that.

SPEAKER_03 55:56

Cheers. Um, yeah, so gainsapp.com. Um, if you if we're not live yet, you can hop on the wait list and we're paying for one lucky person's food shop for an entire year. Um, so that'll get drawn the day that we launch the app. Um, or up the gains money, we have loads of free stuff. Honestly, we give away 99% of the source. So um if you want to learn something about money, it's probably on there.

SPEAKER_01 56:19

Mega. Sammy, you've been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 56:22

Appreciate it.