UKREiiF Unpacked: The Conversations That Matter - LIVE episode with guests Sam Scott and George Dyer sponsored by Fresh

Our second live special episode of Housed recorded at UKREiiF and this time we are joined by some experts in the sector Sam Scott, Managing Director, This is Fresh and George Dyer, Group Investment Director, Watkin Jones Group.

This is a live reaction session unpacking the biggest debates and emerging themes from UKREiiF, we discuss:
- What is the sentiment from UKREiiF so far?
- Building Safety Act and Renters’ Rights Act – what are the implications for operators, developers, investors and residents?
- Affordability and viability in the current climate
- What is not being talked about at UKREiiF?
- What will be the main themes at UKREiiF 2027?

This special live episode of Housed is sponsored by This is Fresh - a market-leading operator across build-to-rent, co-living and student accommodation. With more than 21,000 homes under management, a +38 NPS and platinum-rated service, Fresh delivers outstanding resident experiences and proven results.

Dan Smith is Founder of RESI Consultancy and Co-Founder of Verbaflo.AI.

Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee are Directors and Co-Founders of The Property Marketing Strategists - Elevating Marketing in Property.

Who this episode is for:

• PBSA and student accommodation professionals
• BTR, co-living and rental operators
• Property developers and investors
• University and higher education leaders
• Anyone working in or around housing policy and shared living

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests alone and do not necessarily reflect the views of their employers, organisations, clients, or partners. This podcast is for general discussion and informational purposes only. Nothing said should be taken as professional, legal, financial, or investment advice. While we aim to be accurate, we make no guarantees and accept no liability for decisions made based on the content of this podcast. 

Transcript

Welcome From UKREiiF Leeds

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Good afternoon. This is House the Shared Living Podcast live from UK Reef in Leeds. I'm Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategist.

SPEAKER_04 0:07

I'm Dan Smith from Resi Consultancy and Verberflow AI.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

And I'm Deanny Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists. Now this episode is sponsored by Fresh, a market leading operator across build-to-rent, co-living and student accommodation. With more than 21,000 homes under management, a plus 38 MPS score and platinum rated service, Fresh delivers outstanding resident experiences and proven results. But the best people to talk to you about that are our special co-hosts today, and they're going to introduce themselves.

Meet Fresh And Watkin Jones

SPEAKER_02 0:35

So over to you first, Sam.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Hello everyone, I'm Sun Scott. I'm the managing director of Fresh.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Hi guys, I'm George Dyer, Group Investment Director at Watkin Jones.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

And would you like to explain why you're both here together?

SPEAKER_01 0:46

So Fresh is wholly owned by Watkin Jones. So we with Watkin Jones we look and try and do development, delivery, and also accommodation management. So we have the complete package within the group. We are branded separately because Watkin Jones has traditionally been a capital light model. So looking at forward fund and don't retain assets. And so Fresh is operated as a third party. So when Watkin Jones sell assets, we've we're an option to go and run that asset, but we also are in the market ourselves with our own client base and trade separately as well. So we're independent in terms of our PLs.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Perfect. And the reason that we we wanted George and Sam on the podcast is because they bring such different perspectives of the shared living sectors. But also, and maybe a little bit more selfishly, we've been in here for the whole two days so far. We've got no idea what's going out in uh in the wider UK reef world. So we really wanted to get an idea of what the sentiment is from you know out in the in the other areas. If anyone is going to any of the other sessions, of course, most people are here at the uh Housed Shared Living Summit. But yeah, what's the sentiment from out there?

Market Sentiment And The Viability Problem

SPEAKER_00 1:51

In the words of Anpositokoglu, every time I see the light at the end of the tunnel, it's a s it's a light of an oncoming train. That has been quite reflective of uh, I'd say, the the UK market. I mean, ultimately, uh, we are seeing, I think, some positive in certain areas of of the residential rent sector. I think viability remains the key challenge, the the dreaded V-word, which we're all trying to sort of grap grapple with at the moment. But ultimately, I think from a longer-term capital perspective, if you look at where investors are trying to allocate capital, everyone wants to be in re in residential. It's just how we get the math to work to make it work. And I think in a market where we're seeing rising guilt rates, challenges over Building Safety Act, etc., that that's putting some barriers in terms of how we're able to get there. But some challenges, but we're kind of navigating through as we've done for the last few years.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

And are you hearing, I guess, a will for people to overcome those challenges? Is it more of a yes, we're gonna try rather than the Hosta Koglu example of being defeated?

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Yes, I think there's probably two elements. I think first the investors are trying to look at how they can structure deals. Like ev cost of capital is more expensive in in general, people are having to grapple with that and how they can get the deals to work. I think the other key lever we're seeing, and it's especially across sort of the the build trend space and sort of the affordable housing space, is that that level of government support. So initiatives like the National Housing Bank is really going to help stimulate that development coming forward. Again, that funding will sort of trickle in over the next few months. I think as we go into the back end of this year, actually that should hopefully really help with the viability question as well. So I think that sort of government intervention, hopefully improvements through the national planning policy framework, and also hopefully you know investors, everyone trying to get around the table to work out how we get to a solution is is going to be key.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

And I just want to bring in my co-host here, Deanny and Dan, because we've obviously said we've been in in our sessions as well. So, kind of operationally, what do you think are the key themes that we've heard from in here that we might want to compare to what's going on in the rest of the conference?

Affordability Versus Value For Residents

SPEAKER_04 3:48

I I think if there's one session that really stands out for me so far, it's the resident session and and how important it is to actually really listen to those residents. And and it's not just about let's build a cinema room, let's just you know go all bells and whistles on the amenities side of things. We've mentioned the V words, but I think we also need to mention the A words. You know, affordability is coming up more and more, and and I think that's that's something that all operators are starting to be mindful of. But with investment where it is, with development where it is, and and overall viability, it is incredibly difficult to offer those affordable rooms. Um but to what to what extent do you guys think that you know that focus on affordability should be more about value? Uh you know, it is it is it that we're operating in this value gap, and there's students that are saying, look, please stop charging us to use amenities in co-living, for example, and you know, within PBSA, just making sure that you can have ultimately that that value room rather than just okay, this is £99 a week. So, yeah, what's the balance there that you're seeing between affordability and and value that you're

How Site Teams Create Standout Experience

SPEAKER_04 4:56

hearing?

SPEAKER_01 4:56

People value their experience. So, first of all, is how you give you experience. So, from our perspective, it's interesting. Some of the best experience properties we've got have got the worst amenity space because it comes back to the site teams and their kind of invention in terms of how they engage with people and drive that. So the feedback we get on some of the lower-end property can be higher. Maybe the expectations started lower and we've managed to exceed that through the experience. Um, I think that's a really important part in terms of where you start with. There is things like you get, you know, the complaints that you'll get is they didn't expect to pay this for the wash-in, etc. And so there is some education either up front or either us educating back to clients and saying we might need to recalibrate. So maybe you want to keep your headline rents, but we have to give more for that headline rent now, and then therefore, this is what we do with offers. We also you know listen a lot not just to students but also to marketplace and what they're picking up and what they feel that is easier to sell a building if you're looking at targeting an international audience, and so picking up that kind of nuggets that you're really able to then shape that property going forward. So it's a combination of it all, but you know, if I I come back and start with how your teams engage, and you know, ultimately, what are we trying to do? We're trying to have really good experiences for us. That generates good reviews and helps the next person decide whether they want to live in our properties. For for that to whole connect through, is that when that person lands at that property, it's that experience from day one, and that's I think what builds the value when they go and recommend to

Brand Framework Versus Local Freedom

SPEAKER_01 6:33

a friend.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

And and with that value, how much do you do you think that's built on site compared to you know the fresh brand, for example? Because because I think, again, not to lead the horse to water, you know, we're seeing with of course at the advent of AI and and you know that real focus on the experience, we know how important that the you know communities are, but you know, it it it what's what do you think is more important?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

I I think it's about it's a combination of probably three or four factors that come into this. It's about us as a business creating a framework. So if we've got a really strong framework that underpins that experience, so that could be from your booking processes and things like that, the security of the organization of you know what we do in terms of compliance, etc. So you've got that bit, but you've also got to allow the sites to have that little bit of invention. You know, the job's tough, but what is the best part for the job is what they do with the students and how they engage with the students. That's why they're in it. They're not in it to be administrators or anything like that, they're in it because they love that interaction with young people, and so you've got to give that freedom, but within that kind of framework. For us, you know, getting that consistency across the UK, we've got 68 sites, you're trying to get that consistency on every site, not because you want in a national brand on that basis, because I don't believe people buy necessarily on a national brand, but because you were actually just wanting that best experience for that student on each site. And so that it's a balance of about us determining what people do and them them having that

Renters’ Rights And Flexibility Fallout

SPEAKER_01 8:02

space.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

And another topic that that we discussed today at the summit was around Building Safety Act and Renters' Rights Act in our kind of regulation nation panel. What are the implications for operators, developers, investors, and residents around all that policy?

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Rent of rights, I think it was even said in the last panel, the sectors are going to flush this through. We're already seeing some impact. We've got a limited amount of students that are already obviously served notice. That is quite limited. But what the impact I've started to see is where we would have some solutions for clients before that might have a new building that's not going to get fully let, you might do some key worker opportunities. That it's gone. It's just gone. So it doesn't help the developer and it doesn't provide kind of key working accommodation in these cities. And that's a real disappointment for me that we can't have that flexibility going forward. It's great that the work that we've done with the British Property Federation to get the security for the PBSA and for the investment. But you know, it's going to change anyway. We're seeing the marketplace change. So while we were all better on 51 weeks, that's not going to be the case now, is it? And so the Rented Reform Act, which was going to protect some of that, is actually not because we're going to have to be more flexible as the supply and demand changes. But also, I think it does give for me the work that we've had to go through, it's brought the sector together a little, but we've had more open conversations with my competitors around this space because no one wants to get it wrong. You know, genuinely no one wants to get it wrong. Not wrong for the tenant, not wrong for our clients. So, from our point of view, is it's you know the biggest change in legislation in the last 20 years, and it probably was not going to change soon again, so we'll get used to it, and students will choose if what they want in that flexibility or whether we want the security of the tenancy agreements that we're going to be able to offer them.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

What was really refreshing about that, Sam, is you didn't say, Oh, PBSA is exempt, which actually we've heard probably more than we should. Um, you know, and we like, but okay, you might be exempt from the regulatory side of things, but you're not exempt from the market impact, you know, and we have to look at you know student accommodation as a whole. It's it's you know, it's not just PBSA. So, yeah, so and it's really great to hear that people are actually collaborating and sharing that knowledge, which we haven't really seen in the sector ever, really. So yeah, exactly.

Building Safety Act And Gateway Two

SPEAKER_02 10:23

And George, about what about you with building safety?

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Yes, I mean it it's been probably one of the biggest uh impacts on uh on the construction industry that we've seen for for yeah for decades. So I mean ultimately prior to the Building Safety Act, we would have literally had the piling rigs rolling on the next day as soon as we've got the grant of planning. So you would literally would be piling the site, cracking on, working through your design as you as you as you progress. That is design and build fundamentally how design and build contracts work. What we have to do now is effectively get to a stage four plus of design, which means effectively we get planning and you you don't know what you can't really crack on the design ahead of planning because you don't really know where you're gonna get to. So you've got to take from Reba stage two to Reba stage four, which is quite a lot of detail planning. That probably takes you the best part of nine months, plus another month to then get your gateway submission ready to go. So because you can't just fire it straight in, you need to get it right. So we have internally we will sit and go through that uh from an internal check, we'll have an external check and a further, a final sort of internal review, and then you're into the the regime of the gateways, which you know I think we've had two go through in the last uh just before Christmas, which is about 28 to 29 weeks. Obviously, there's stories of people being in for 42, 50 weeks plus ultimately. It does feel that's getting better, and I think ultimately where we will get to this year is a much shortened gateway 2 programme. But if you take you know the 28 to 29 weeks plus your 10 months, you're basically for 15, 16 months. Which, if you think about it's an extra, I don't know, two million pounds maybe on your design costs, plus your cost of capital over that period, which maybe another two or three million pounds. So that's another four or five million pounds like your approval, which people have to cash flow. So the impact on that is what it's doing, is taking out a number of SME developers that would have historically been able to crack on and progress. Ultimately, that bridge financing to get basically from a planning permission to a fundable scheme is is really sucking out quite a bit of development capacity out of the market. So I think things will change. I think also there's talk around approval by package. So in Scotland, for example, you get your substructure and your frame approved, and that takes X amount X amount of time, and then you can crack on with the rest of your design, so it means that you're not having to get everything on a box before you go. Hopefully that's where we end up. But at the moment, that is putting a material impact on top of the wider viability impacts on the development side, and also the building safety levy, which is coming in towards the end of this year, which again will be a further impact on viability.

SPEAKER_04 12:50

And and to what extent are you s are you seeing that change now? The uh you know, are there drastic improvements in terms of how it started going through Gateway 2, you know, maybe 18 months ago compared to today? And and what do you think has driven those changes? Because we're all asked uh uh all after the government to actually either throw tech or people at it in some way, shape, or form. And you know, you could talk through planning as well potentially, but um uh but yeah, what what changes are you seeing?

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yeah, so uh initially the approach was very much it was taken from the oil and gas industry, it was very much a this is what the rules are, you need to submit and tell us that you are satisfying those rules. Uh and that was really, really difficult for people to do because no one really knew what the regulator wanted. I think they've learned from that. There's been a huge change in attitudes, there is a lot more consultation, there's a lot more ability to ask questions of the regulator to get your application right. So that has meant you've been able to sort of move the time frames forward a quick quicker, which has been good. Equally, they've put more resource into that and they've you know innovation units, etc. You've now got kind of key client contacts as well within the regulator that we can go and speak to directly as well. So they've what they've moved towards industry in a in a quite fundamental manner, which has really helped, but it still needs more.

SPEAKER_04 14:01

Yeah, it's the the time frame is shortening, but you know, the cost is still there. I think that's that's the the struggle there.

Why Student Housing Faces Planning Pushback

SPEAKER_02 14:07

On the subject of of planning, we just had a really, really interesting session before about ability and education, and what we were really talking about was what cities might look like if there were no students, therefore no graduates in a city, and how that would impact. And it was really interesting because we had Wynne Evans from Shared Voice who said that when they're trying to get support for planning applications, the word student seems to be a dirty word. Co-living people seem to be really supportive of, but as soon as you start talking about student accommodation, the people in cities they have a lot more objections. I guess George, are you seeing that? And then I was gonna say that was to Sam, but you know, what do you think's changed about students? Why is that an unfair kind of assumption from kind of local people really? And well, what how that might impact a city?

SPEAKER_00 14:49

It's student is always very difficult in planning. Ultimately, students don't pay don't pay council tax, so that is a fundamental part of it. I think also councils tend to look at residential as being built-to-rent, built to sell, you know, now potentially co-living. That's that's that's meeting their residential demand. They don't see student accommodation in the same context, partly because I think they see it's transient, it's a transient population coming in and out. Equally, it's a lot of outdated attitudes, and I was you know had the joys of listening to a planning committee six months ago where you know the th the things that were coming up at committee was firstly a plague of delivery riders outside the residences with their mopeds littering the pavement. We've had hostile bin stalls uh because it was dark, dark and dingy in a bin stall. Also, the fact that the the bathroom pods didn't have a window and therefore there's no ventilation, it was all going to get it's gonna create mould within the building. This is the level of unfortunately some of the debate that we have to have and have to go through with with student accommodation, and they completely ignore the GVA and what what actually what what student accommodation brings to a to a city, to a scheme, to a master plan. And I think but equally we need to be reflective of that as a sector and sort of say, have we sold student accommodation in the best way of light possible? Have we educated councils? Have we taken them through why this is really important for the housing needs? Because you know, three miles away up in Henley, you've got you know nine or ten bed HMOs, right? Is that the most efficient use of housing? You know, or or is it a much more dense product in the city centre next to university which actually services the students' needs in a more effective manner and frees up that housing for family housing? So I think there's more we need to do as well, but it's it's a challenging, challenging environment.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

I was gonna say, economically, all of the uh delivery drivers are there because young people have spent their money in local you know, food outlets.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

There's a perfect example of this down in um Bristol. So in Bedminster, Bob Jones built a building called Metalworks, there's 800 first years into it, and we opened it two years ago. And when I first went down the Bedminster house rate, it was a bit a bit gritty. Um delicately put, yeah. Um and went back, yes, uh, because I'm now committed apparently to doing car park duty every check-in. Um I went back this year and you could see the development. You've had 800 people on that doorstep, that high street, spending money there every day, and it's a massive difference it brings. And so, you know, you can see young people, you're saying imagine you know city without young people, they spend money in a completely different way to URI. And so that local economy needs that money. These shops need the money, as you to your point. You know, it's really fundamental going forward that that's identified. And I mean, I've been doing this now four years, and across our, you know, what have we got six eight assets across it? I don't think I've ever dealt with complaints after student accommodation's been built in. There's been some antisocial in one area I remember, but there's actually not nothing coming to me as an operator, and our address is on the front of every building on a plaque, so they could write to me, and hopefully this doesn't encourage them to, but they could write to me to say what the complaints are. But we're not getting that. So it fe there's a fear there, but it's unfounded in my view.

SPEAKER_04 18:02

It's that NIMBY mentality, isn't it, that goes typically through planning. And and then, you know, once they actually get there, and obviously you're doing something right here in terms of keeping the students happy with the 38 MPS, etc., but that does tend to dissipate. And there's this image of students that it it's like the young ones, and you know, with that they're all out there partying, drinking non-stop, and depending on the demographic, you know, yes, an undergraduate student is more likely to be going out, partying, being in the city centre and coming back slightly later. But that's not always the case. They are much more, they're they're certainly much more focused on their studies.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

It's an investment. Yeah. You know, you've got to make this decision an investment. If we we talk about, you know, when I'm talking to new clients, uh, what's the most important thing? Where would you invest money? What social spaces, community spaces would you put in? Excellent study spaces, because they're always the ones that are in most demand in the building. It's maybe not the most exciting to sell the building, but actually once students get there, that's the bits that they value. Obviously, we need the shiny things to attract them in, but actually, once you get that high value is because you put the spaces that actually serves their need, they're there to study.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

But I think George, you made the point earlier that actually I don't think as a sector we're probably doing enough to talk about this and actually say what the benefits that brings, and actually all your fears aren't going to come true in this scenario. And um, there's there's definitely more that we should be doing around that.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

But what I was gonna say is that comparison, obviously, you're dealing with BTR and co-living as as well.

BTR And Co-Living Planning Comparisons

SPEAKER_02 19:30

How is that met by local people versus PBSA? Is is student a dirty word, but young people is okay?

SPEAKER_00 19:38

From a BTR perspective, it is very easy for people to get their heads around what it what it's bringing to to a city. It is, you know, it's a it's a very saleable proposition, it it's it's within people's comfort zone. What we found with co-living is it really varies dependent on the market. So I can point to our scheme in Leeds, Hedra House, which unfortunately we've we're no longer progressing with, but that was a critical case in point where I still remember remember it today. Like literally, I was at I was at the site and we had a bus of all the planners arrive, and everyone kind of got off the bus, you know, of a certain demographic, slightly older, and having to then explain what co-living was as you put a give them a VR headset to sort of show what a room could look like, and the notion of people wanting to live in a 18 and a half to 19 square metre apartment with a lot of amenity was was quite alien, and ultimately where we got pushed there was actually a huge amount of amenity to basically almost get to NDSS standards on accordance to a sort of a BTR studio. So we I think we're basically at six or seven square meters of amenity, which just killed the viability. So I think for CoLive it's been a real journey as you go through a number of different markets to get people comfortable with what it is and what it brings to the city and how it works. London is very easy, well, very easy, nowhere as easy, but an easier proposition because you've got you know you've got a policy framework, whereas Leeds has been difficult. You know, we we've tried to do stuff in Glasgow, trying to get that has been quite difficult as a concept, but overall, I still think it's probably easier than student because you can make a broader case for what it's trying to do.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

I think I think the the interesting thing with bit with the comparison is also the flexibility that you talked about there, you know, where BTR and Co-Living have flexibility baked in, and that will definitely be the case now, obviously with the renters' rights bill and and students slightly less so this year is going to be fascinating in terms of that the impact there and and how everybody copes with that that flexibility, I think. So um, yeah, watch watch this space.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

What's not being talked about at you, Kerry? What have we missed off our panels, or what are you not seeing elsewhere in in the conference? Because it feels and and we opened, I think, yesterday by saying it's a year of change, really. It I don't I think that there are different topics than last year, if I'm on here. So, but yeah, what's still not being talked about, what's not being

International Demand And Slower Leasing

SPEAKER_02 21:49

addressed?

SPEAKER_01 21:49

We are talking a lot internally and a lot with clients about the velocity of sales, obviously, where their sales are coming from and the decision points, particularly international. Have around where to choose. And you know, we have got more competition. So UK is now not sitting on this crime duel. There's competition out there. You know, I talk quite a lot about the amount of applicants going to Hong Kong and other countries. And when I speak to marketplace as well, a lot of students are sitting there at the moment not making up their minds. So they're holding back and delaying decisions a lot, lot later in the cycle. And it's quite hard to evidence because we always look at last year and judge ourselves by the previous year. But the market's still there for students, we're still going to have students coming. It's just when they're going to make their decisions. And we're now getting into the busy time. So if people aren't let up as much as they want at the moment, actually now, between June, July, and August, is going to be the really busy time for that international capture. People have been sitting, I was speaking to one who was sitting on, they could go to the US or they could come to the UK, they haven't made up their mind yet. And we're not going to influence that. I know you didn't want to mention, or you do want to mention Mr. Trump, he'll probably influence that. So you know, some things are outside of our control, but and we're all chasing the same things, but we've got to understand the sentiment that's happening in the international market because that has a big impact on the UK PBSE sector.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

What about you, George?

Blended Tenure Buildings And Flexible Use

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Do you think anything's being being missed that should be talked about brought to the open?

SPEAKER_00 23:21

I think a number of the fundamental changes we're seeing across the leasing cycle, how occupant is going to change, how we use buildings is I think ultimately that flexibility over use and how we can actually bring in different use classes within the same asset is something I think which which which isn't really been talked about, but ultimately I think it's probably where a number of the the residential sector should go. So I think you know, why can't we have buildings with different tenure types within within that? I think it's it's happening on the continent. We've seen it in in the Netherlands, we've seen it in other other markets where you're looking at some of these sort of blended models, and I think that is something which from an occupational perspective makes sense, from an investment perspective should make sense, but it's getting capital aligned with how that could work.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

We did cover that yesterday in in one of our sessions, and and it was exactly those examples that are from mainland Europe with a massive why, and you know, our panelists got quite passionate about it because it does feel like not only is it a disservice, I guess, from a investor-developer operator point of view, but also the residents as well. And you know, one of our sessions was about the this you know, are we creating silos?

SPEAKER_01 24:28

But actually, you have no choice really with the rent of rights at the moment it's a big decision if you are going to do a blended offer, and the you know, until we see how that matures through on student market, you know, that that will I think people will just hold their thoughts and wait.

Co-Living Pipeline And Unit Size

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Do you think with your kind of investors and clients that you're you're talking to, is sentiment shifting more towards co-living investment rather than PBSA for that reason?

SPEAKER_01 24:54

I'm certainly seeing because we get asked to price schemes and we've seen a massive, but obviously BTR just has fallen away over the last couple of years, and we've seen a massive uptick now on co-living and looking at that as solutions. Uh so there is a pipeline out there for co-living, but when we talk to them about it, it's really trying to understand what their product they want to be, and you know, can we shape that, can we organize, can we work with them on that? Whereas I think a lot of students, as I've seen before, came up quite generically to the point of until you open the doors, I think you've got to have a lot more early planning on a co-lib design um to get it right, so it's going to be working.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Yeah, I mean look somebody we're very engaged at the moment. We've got about a thousand beds in pipelines, so we're spending a lot of time working with Fresh, learning from the market, learning from what we're seeing elsewhere in Europe as well, uh, to try and refine that product. So yeah, we we think there's a really interesting market there to go after, and you know, both you need to get the operations right, the building design right, the amount of amenity. I think the size of units is really important because you go too big, you massively skew your rents up, and that's that's taking away from the affordability question. Where you pitch those rents in relation to BTR is really important. So that's something we're we're active with, and yeah, that we're hoping to sort of come up with a platform towards the end of the year on that front.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

That leads us nicely, probably on to Deanny's next question.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

Yeah, I was just gonna say that I think what's been refreshing this year, and generally across the conference circuits, people are being a lot more transparent, a lot more

What The Next Year Could Bring

SPEAKER_03 26:18

practical. I think people are looking at yes, there's lots of headwinds, yes, there's lots of challenges, but actually there's opportunity. What do you think the things are we gonna be seeing across the next year and into UK Reef 2027?

SPEAKER_00 26:29

At the moment, we're in a we're in a very strange place, it's been a long time, it's been quite a negative market for quite a long time. I think if you look at the medium term headwinds, uh sorry, tailwinds though, firstly, everyone is massively under underallocated to residential for rent from a global capital perspective. People will continue reallocating into residential uh across the various segments. I do think student will stabilise. I think there's you know, I do think potentially some of the sentiments are a little bit overblown, so I'm still bullish on student, and I think that it'll create a lot of opportunity as well through there's gonna be a lack of supply coming forward. Ultimately, the supply is dropping off a cliff in terms of new beds coming forward. We're losing eight to ten thousand beds net per annum as well. So, actually, if something that start netting that off, that is going to create some real issues. It's back to picking your winners though, so I think ultimately from yeah, it's back to 2015-2016, where you know it was you pick the markets, you build the right scheme in the right location, it will let it isn't just I want to macro allocate to student, I'm gonna build everywhere. That is not gonna work anymore, and it really shouldn't have worked in the first place. So I think we're reverting back to the mean. So, actually, long worth saying, I think I'm bullish in 12 months' time we're sitting here with a much more positive outlook on on where things are. Hopefully, guilt have come back in, we've got more positive trajectory on interest rates, and we are starting to see those capital flows back in. We were seeing it in Q1, we're starting to see core core plus money coming back into development, starting to look at that. That's what we need to sort of really get some projects through on the viability question. Um, and you clean the building safety act. I think that will get easier as well.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

That was more positive than I thought. So, thank you. What about you,

Refurbishment Strategy And Sustainability Reality

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Sam?

SPEAKER_01 27:58

We've got Asian assets through the stock, haven't we? And and it's how you reposition that. We're seeing things like Unite selling off, we're seeing Maple Tree stock coming out, and there's a lot of interest out there in terms of buying this and repositioning it in the markets. And so I think it's going to be really interesting to see, and probably more talking about refurbishments and what we're going to be doing along that way. You know, we've got um it's kind of joint, well, it's within what can join, but it's called refresh, and it's all about trying to reposition these assets going forward in the future, whether that's from a carbon point of view or whether it's from a repositioning on a price point with new life cycle going in and upgrading the properties. It's all about you know trying to look at where these opportunities are and not just like ditch old assets and say, well, just take the new shiny new ones, because some of some of the locations of these assets are really in prime spots. So I think there'll be a lot more discussion around that. There's probably not been a dedicated session talking about how you take old stock and bring it up to new. And I think that's an opportunity for next year, maybe to be have a part of the agenda.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yeah, really. And I think I guess I mean we we had a session about sustainability and DEI, but I'm not sure I feel like sustainability has sort of fallen off a cliff in this, you know, this conference as well. So I guess, and that feeds into what you were just saying about, you know, let's refurbish the buildings that we've got, you know, they're in great locations, they're popular.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yeah, we've been involved in one actually, we helped a client identify it, they bought it, and actually refresh is now doing up the property while the students living in there, so we've got to manage this expectation of the students in there to what they're getting back, and doing that through this cycle, and then we'll reposition it into the next cycle. And that that's giving that client some income while they're expending out on it, and it's trying to make it balance and work for everyone. But you know, it's a fine balance in terms of how the speed that you have to do this and the what and the methods of construction that you're going to do while keeping the students you know engaged and happy along the way. So I think that's going to be a lot more part of the process going forward, and you know, with that, obviously, you hopefully get better greener buildings that helps the OPEX if you've got um energy costs going through. So, you know, everyone should win on these scenarios, and there's opportunity there that people are talking

Demographic Shifts And Visa Watch

SPEAKER_01 30:13

about.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

And what about from a kind of a demographic point of view, Sam? Kind of do you see anything massively changing in the particularly in the student cycle coming through in the next kind of 12 months?

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Yeah, each cycle we're we're looking at it, you know, those interesting things that we look at each year. So, in the example, last year we saw we have got four properties in Liverpool, and across that stock, we saw China being from number one demographic to number two, and it was overtaken by UK. It'll be interesting to see if that comes out and that becomes a consistent trend, or is it just because there was a new building opened that attracted them into that location? So we we're looking at the data to see if there is trends and not be too knee-jerk about it. But look at the no visa data. I think probably everyone clicks on that every month once it's published. You know, at the moment that is a concern, and so you know, we're hoping to see that uh you know the UK holds up in terms of international um attractiveness, but it's it's generally China at the moment being number one on that. But I think numbers are dropping there, and we're starting to see some other countries um come up the rankings there.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

I'm gonna throw a final question at your that is unscripted and unprepared.

Can Shared Living Ease Housing Crisis

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Can the shared rental living sector solve the housing crisis? Go.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Absolutely. I mean, it's a critical component of what we're trying to do. I think you know, ultimately, fewer people will be buying, buying will take longer, so actually we need more rental products in in the market, and I think we need different types of rental products. I've kind of got used to calling co-living almost residential polyfiller because it almost goes into the places where you don't know it's needed. I mean, we look at the demographics of our our co-living assets in our set next term. We've got you know, bricklayers, we've got nurses, we've got doctors, we've got an el uh older couple who are want a room near where their family where their daughter-in-law is because they want to help with the kids but don't want to stay with a daughter-in-law. Uh, it fulfills a need for a much broader demographic than just people coming out of university. So I do think across the various segments that we've got, it's going to be an important part of how we solve the housing crisis.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yeah, I I think we can change the perce um perception that landlord is a bad thing. You know, I think professional landlords are great for tenants, and we should be shouting about that. And I think it should be part of the solution rather than actually always being pitched as actually maybe the baddie in the whole equation.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

Finishing on lots of positives there, sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Yeah, well I do I did request that we try and finish on a positive, and you you met the brief, so thank

Closing Thanks And Next Recording

SPEAKER_02 32:40

you very much. Um that brings us to the end of our live UK Reef podcast number two. Um we will be back tomorrow for our third and final wrap up of the whole Shared Living Summit. Um, so in the meantime, I'd like to say thank you to Sam and George for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Thank you very much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

And audience that is here, we now have a networking session starting at 3 30 being hosted by Housing Hands. So please stick around for that.