Cops, Criminals, and Christ
"Cops, Criminals & Christ" is a podcast delving into the intertwining worlds of law enforcement, crime, and faith. With Dale Sutherland, a former narcotics Sergeant turned pastor, it features gripping narratives and candid interviews exploring behind-the-scenes work of life undercover, as well as the transformative power of faith in the lives of both cops and criminals. Tune in for compelling insights and real-life stories that challenge, inspire, and reveal God’s grace available through it all, at the hands of its host and Dale’s daughter, Kristen Crew.
Cops, Criminals, and Christ
Panic Attacks to Drug Busts: A Cop’s Lessons Through Fear
In this episode, Dale Sutherland shares his powerful journey from childhood panic attacks to confronting life-threatening situations as an undercover police officer. Discover how he learned to face fear head-on by blending cognitive behavioral therapy techniques with his faith. Whether you struggle with anxiety or simply want to understand how to live courageously despite fear, Dale’s story offers practical lessons and encouragement for anyone walking through their own fears.
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Welcome to the Cops, criminals and Christ podcast, where we will hear interesting stories and unique perspectives about the work of cops, the world of criminals and how faith plays a role in the lives of both. Dale Sutherland was an undercover cop and a pastor for many years and will share interesting stories and perspectives and interview guests. I'm your host, his daughter Kristen Kru. Come join us to learn more about these powerful forces and how they shape the lives of people just like you. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome back. Today we are going to be talking about fear and I think it's super interesting because it relates to literally every single person. I thought you were gas, your mouth was a gape in awe of what I was saying, but you were yawning Um. This is relatable to every person and I think it's interesting that our brain is wired to experience fear, to perceive threats. So, like if we see a bear walk up to us, we want to feel fear to make us run away. But often our brain perceives a threat like a bear for making a phone call we don't want to do, or going in for you as an undercover cop true, true, tangible fear of guns and danger and all those things, and also you've experienced fear in things that might not make as much rational, logical sense to the outside world. So I think it's a really important topic to dive into. What are your initial thoughts on fear for the people?
Speaker 3:I'd say that, if you are just starting to listen, whether you're a religious person or not a religious person, I think this is one of the most common things we all fight, and when I grew up, I thought tough guys didn't, but that was a lie. I was wrong, and I've always fought this and I still fight it, and so I think there's some things we should talk about that will help you, whatever perspective you're at, from somebody who's been in like what you would consider legitimately dangerous situations compared to the normal everyday things that scare us all.
Speaker 2:So, as your daughter, I have a little bit more background knowledge and I will spill it all. But you experienced fear as a human before, before becoming a police officer, which seems silly. If you already were accustomed to kind of some fears in just average life, can you speak to that? What? What growing up was like with different fears before even entering true fear?
Speaker 3:Yeah, my, my mother tells me that she remembers me having what we would call, now, panic attack. When I was like four years old, I was at the top of the step somewhere we were living, and she said that I just I don't know froze and saw what she thinks was a panic attack. So I can remember being really young, though, and having a lot of fear just at certain times, because, remember, like all of us, we have these anxious moments. And then you hate yourself and you think I'm anxious all the time, nobody else like me. That isn't true.
Speaker 3:Anxiety comes and goes. For people it's like water, it's like the ocean. It comes in and goes back out. Because, of God's grace to everybody, it's peaks and it goes away Not completely necessarily, but anyway. So we would go through. I would go through times. Now, when you look back, we went to five different elementary schools, three different junior highs, three different high schools. It's not really that confusing that you say, oh, you suffered some anxiety during those times. I mean that seems reasonable now it's talking about, but the time nobody had anxiety or fear, unless you were they wouldn't label it as that.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, right, we didn't believe that right?
Speaker 3:oh, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, just yeah. I can remember my dad saying to me yeah, he just really could not understand, uh, the way I felt about now is about my fears or whatever I've. I've confided in him in the sixth grade or something. I remember him saying it's really hard to love you when you, you know, tell me these things.
Speaker 1:Did he say that yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, he was serious too.
Speaker 2:He was totally disgusted with me and you still remember it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I can't say I lost any sleep over it last week and I love my dad but he's dead now.
Speaker 2:But yeah, sure you remember stuff like that misconception, that that, like just you know, do better, get better, and that's not the case, which is why I think it'd be good to talk today about some of the tools you've found that have helped you. And for anyone listening that feels like that's not something I struggle with or that's not the more you tap in, you're like either you or someone right next to you or in another season of life or circumstance in life, you're going to be hit with it if you haven't yet. So we all need tools in our tool belt for ourselves and our loved ones, and certainly our kids, to help us walk through it. So what?
Speaker 2:about as a police officer, you know we all can envision all the things that were fearful. What brought you true fear in those years?
Speaker 3:At the police department. What scared me, you know, when I first became a policeman I was in uniform and I was out and around. I would say and this is how silly the mind is I was more fearful of not being accepted by the other cops, not being respected in the street, than I was of the street Insanity. You know, I wasn't afraid. I don't remember ever being, you know, petrified of firearms or petrified of of of normal police stuff, Even when I'd watch like movies like I, you know, it's not like now I couldn't watch something about a child getting hurt or whatever. All these grandkids I couldn't watch. I just don't want to watch. But it wasn't like then I couldn't watch a video about a policeman getting shot or something. I could. No, it was no problem, I just thought how I'd get around it. But what really scared me was whether or not people would still like me, whether or not I could still do a good job, all those kind of normal things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes sense, and it's also interesting just how the brain works that some things that literally all of society would say that's worthy of your fear wasn't as scary to you as the things that we feel like we shouldn't be worried about.
Speaker 2:But you also and maybe this is pulling back the curtain too far, but with you not wanting to watch kids get hurt like you. You really don't like kids. I mean, who likes a baby crying? But it brings stress to you. But am I allowed to say that a doctor once identified that through all your search warrants and things of being in hard places where kids were kind of in the crossfire of your arrest, that somehow impacted you? It's not for no reason. You were around a lot of upset children as you help them be safe from their adult. Would you say that's true and that has impacted your future? I mean it was interesting.
Speaker 3:I was talking to a doctor, a psychologist, and I was telling him about. To me it just seems insane, like I could watch, like right now, to see. Sometimes even MMA would bother me when they would beat a guy. I feel like it should.
Speaker 3:When they would actually the guy is down and they just continue to beat on him. Or if I watch a, I remember seeing a couple of things where some group of girls jumped another kid, you know, beat a real bad. I just I can't watch it. I think in a good way nobody should watch it. But in a but in another way it really bothered me. So he said it could be PTSD. Now you know, I don't think I've done anything that deserves that. I mean that should be reserved. That classic case to me should be reserved for guys who've, like, shot the wrong person or lost a child. I just don't want to ever diminish that real pain that people go through compared to what I've seen. But but I but I would say that that was interesting to me to think of. Maybe that stuff did affect me, that it bothered me more than I.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I think we should push back on that a little bit. It's understandable you feel that way. I want to honor people that you deem worthy of PTSD, but PTSD is a DSM diagnosis with like five symptoms that you could get from a menagerie of reasons. But, it is, you know, like our kids from hard places. Some of them have been diagnosed with it and it doesn't define you, but it certainly is a real thing that any kind of complex chronic heart.
Speaker 3:You know you come at this and we? This is the one we, as soon as we talk about anxiety, worry, fear, whatever term I use matters, because in my generation I was talking to men and I said, man, you're anxious. Almost every man would be like you just don't want to identify with that. But if I said, man, you worry too much, yeah, they'd be like yeah, take out the notepad, ready to write you see what I mean, or like stress would be acceptable.
Speaker 3:Stress acceptable PTSD Pressure, what that's for, like soldiers, for people who've been through, you know, terrible traumas, children, and really I mean honestly, let's not diminish that Like to me. I level respect for those that have suffered mentally but, as you, you say it is just foolishness because of course, people can get PTSD other ways. I mean, I'm not a doctor, but yeah, you know, through terrible trauma. That can happen and our trauma is perceived a lot, so it's weird, but the human body responds to it differently.
Speaker 2:That'll be something I asked the Lord one day.
Speaker 2:It's just like kind of the mystery of risk, how two people can go through the same thing and one not be impacted and one be, you know, incredibly impacted for the duration of their life, and how the brain is malleable with all that stuff. But I think you do have a point that like we throw around PTSD or like OCD, ocd because I watch that's not OCD, ocd is real. You know there's things like this that we shouldn't throw around beyond what reason. But it also is a real, real diagnosis that can be helped. So through this journey you have kind of tapped into CBT cognitive behavioral therapy. Do you feel like one of the things that provided the most tools for you to help with fear?
Speaker 3:So there's, first of all, I would say, my walk with the Lord and my knowledge of scripture has really helped me to build a basis, like a biblical framework, to understand what's going on with me, to accept Christ's love, even when the rest of the world thinks you're stupid, all those type of things and to realize Christ at work in me, that he loves me. All those things are critical. And knowing God's word, constantly knowing God's word, is like that ability. So, with changing your thinking, you need to also put in good thoughts. You just don't want to take out the bad, you want to put in good. And I would just say the scriptures are supernatural, literally. Um, and it has helped me. That'd be.
Speaker 3:Step one was the word of God, and the word of God has carried me. It's Jesus talking to me. You know, people talk about hearing from the Lord and I just say heard from the Lord, not hearing. In other words, that book, that book is the Lord, the word of God, god Almighty, speaking to you and he's there to help you and he's prepared these words that are going to help you through your worst time. So, anyway, the word of God and then the word of God mixed with two different things. I've probably never made this clear to you. There's REBT rational emotive behavioral therapy and CBT cognitive behavioral therapy and those are two a little bit different, but both together have helped me a ton.
Speaker 2:Well, first, so you went through growing up not much real help or support for any fears you felt, maybe the contrary. And then in your police work you kind of did just grin and bear it, like you're saying, like other guys, we don't accept this. But you never did to a degree right. You might've been ahead of a lot of men in identifying it and treating things like anxiety. I know certainly in our family that has been true. I have friends that said, growing up it was never. And in our home we did talk about mental health and things like that. But when did this come into play? These like CBT, like I? Never, you know, that wasn't always part of your life. So how, what brought you to be open to that? Like you're saying, I think our walks with the Lord can kind of loosen our grip on things and open us to resources he has provided. But how'd you get from fighting crime and stuffing down fear to sharing about CBT?
Speaker 3:and REBT To think about it. Yeah, so I would say that that's a long process that the Lord was taking me through and I was so dumb and so closed to see the many of the things science learns are just God being gracious to us. So the things we've learned about cancer and how to fight childhood cancer now it reduces the death of fatalities of childhood cancer that's really good research. And there's been research on the brain that is really helpful and godly and good because our kind Savior has just given us a little bit more of a view into what the brain works like. So that's all been really good.
Speaker 3:Earlier I would have said Bible only you know, and medicine I thought was good, was fine. But I just thought the idea of psychology or somebody coaching me who wasn't a believer, let's say, or didn't use the Bible every minute, oh, that would be bad. And I now have changed my opinion. When I left so early I'd say late in my police career, I ended up meeting a doctor, a little Jewish doctor, wonderful man, dr Sank, and he started coaching me a little bit. And was he helpful. He just made such sense.
Speaker 3:What I didn't realize then was what he was doing was REBT and CBT. And then the poor guy gave me a book REBTE-B-T which give me a book you might as well give me, I don't know, a brick or something, I'm not going to read it and I thought that thing, come on. He kept saying read it, read it. Well, anyway, one time I was actually in, I can remember, on the Peru trip years ago we were talking about with Tyler a few minutes ago I was on the Peru mission trip and I was uncommonly nervous or anxious or whatever you call it, and I had that book with me and I read, uh, just a chapter and it made such sense. It's like the Lord used it to just calm my thoughts and I just felt peaceful. Big thing. It didn't eradicate all anxiety, fear in life, no, but it reduced it for me, so it was manageable.
Speaker 3:OK, so anyway that was what started Dr Sank learning and I started reading now because now I got interested, you know, and then when I left my church job at the megachurch and I kind of like had another, like a second retirement, you know, it was like a hit in the head, like I couldn't believe that I was leaving this place. I loved and I had been there 30 years and I wanted to be there until I was 85.
Speaker 1:I really did.
Speaker 3:I pictured myself being there until I was 85. And and I left in an in an uncomfortable situation. So I left and all of a sudden I'm I'm used to supervising a lot of people and I always the police department too, too. I was always in a room where we had four sergeants and and there was a washington post reporter used to say that room was uh, like a comedy show and uh and uh and uh um, the most important place in the city in a way, because we'd have the four of us in there and people would just be coming in. All officers come in.
Speaker 3:Hey, we got a gun on this guy, we got this murder here, hey, we got this. And we'd all be managing in there. And then we'd be hollering, the tv'd be going, we'd go, and then I go to that, then I go to the church, and I had at the time hundreds of employees, and so they were in and out of my office. That's just the way my scatterbrain likes. It's all of a sudden, after all those two worlds now I was reduced to. I was working for a mission organization, which was wonderful.
Speaker 3:Not reduced, reduced in my mind, reduced to just me in an office. So yeah, it was a perspective change, so I had to change and get my thoughts here. But, like, what am I going to do? I mean, I don't have anybody to talk to my poor wife she's come here.
Speaker 1:She's like get him out of the house.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the Lord. Just so I said to this guy, dr Sank. I said you know, dr Sank, I've never really understood everything, so would you take time I'm going to pay you to teach me how to coach others in this REBT stuff? And he was so kind, he spent like some time with me and every week we would just work and I'd just take notes and I learned. Sure, I was learning about myself, but I was really learning also how to use it with my family and with my friends. So I really became felt like a mixture of that, with scripture. Of course that's what Dr Sank was missing, and the power of Jesus too, the power of the Holy Spirit to change a life.
Speaker 2:That all worked together for me to really help me. So what are the give us the mystery of this miracle not miracle, but the ways that have helped you. What are some of the tools? What are some of the concepts of thinking and things like that.
Speaker 2:I think it's also, uh, proves what we know to be true that like this truly was a very hard, disorienting time for you to have so many roles switch some chosen, some less chosen, some in your control, less in your control and things you loved either way were changed, and that was hard. I mean, mom said the other day, I think you know, leaving that role at church, and that church just changed his brain and it was hard, but God used it to get the help you need, to help everyone else. So you wouldn't have maybe explored this and learned these tools? And I think it aligns with scripture that when we are able to recognize our frailty, our humanity, our struggles, it kind of opens our grip right to the Lord to really work, to say you know all, you are all. I need more of you, instead of us kind of having this like perfection, like no, we're good, we're good, everything's good. It really gives more access to what he can provide us. So what are some specific tools with CBT?
Speaker 3:and RBT. Remember I said I said too. I think it's important when I talk about these is to also say I read Communion with God, with John Owen. I read a lot of the Puritan authors really helped me. Reformed authors helped me to think deeper and to see how the Lord really viewed me versus the way I viewed myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that really changed everything. Of course I wish I knew that at 21. It would have changed. And I think all the people you always worry about, all the people I did wrong to that I probably didn't mean to. I thought I was trying to do the right thing, much what we talk about, but realizing then like if I knew then, what do I know now? But I have to trust sovereignty of God to that, because when I look back I think like, why did I ever take that church job? Or why did I ever do this? And it's just so dumb to do that, because the Lord has put it all together and the same Jesus has been with me then and now, and police work and other times. So, anyway, what are the key things? Okay, key things are.
Speaker 3:Number one is um, uh, to identify, uh, distorted thoughts. Or I like this this is good. You gotta define it right or else the christian will be off. They'll be like that's psycho babble or if I say it to you and you're in that. So let's make it clear it's.
Speaker 3:There's a bunch of terms, but distorted thinking, you know, cognitive distortions, they call them another way. Then they just say bad thoughts. It's whatever you want to put in there. Just understand there are thoughts we think that are goofy. You know they're just dumb, and we know they're dumb and those are the ones that probably haunt us the most. It's like it's. It's like. You know that's not true, but it's driving you nuts, you know.
Speaker 3:So example of a distorted thought for me would be so stupid. I would be worried. I would be worried to travel. For years, I didn't want to travel by myself without my wife. Okay, I never knew this. Yeah, didn't want to travel by myself without my wife. So if there would be a work trip or a, I avoided them. Or if I would, they would have to. If I was going to go, they'd have to be super busy all the time. Then I knew I'd be okay, but there was a total fear that what will I do at the end of the day if I don't have my wife to go with and go to a movie or do whatever? In case, just in case, I feel anxiety. It wasn't that I was afraid to be away from my wife. I was afraid away from her all the time. So I had this.
Speaker 3:At the same time, though, I was conniving on how to get. Really honestly, this is the truth. I wanted to be around the worst criminals I could. That's it Really. That's the truth. We wanted to be around the most dangerous, not me only, but other undercovers. We wanted to be with the guys.
Speaker 3:I remember getting a talking to an interview and interview. I was working undercover and I was trying to get this, this girl and this guy to commit a homicide for me. We were talking about they were going to be hit men for me. And I'm in the middle of this conversation and the guy says shoot, and this is the days of Polaroid. He said shoot. He said, if you want, we'll cut his head off for you and take a Polaroid To me. That was a great day. It was like, oh, this is great. I got this guy talking about this. I can't believe this. And here's I'm with this terrible woman and the female. There was a really dangerous female who had burned a guy alive and she'd done all these terrible things. And I was so thrilled when I met her. She comes into the room, into the room. I was like, wow, this is great, it was great, and that's the way I think. And then I'm worried to get in a plane and go by myself to some city for ministry or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really insane.
Speaker 3:So that's distorted thinking, that's a distorted thought. So you have to ask yourself you take the first thing as you identify it. You say uh, uh, by the way, did I need to be afraid in those other circumstances with the bad guys? And I'll know I didn't need to be afraid that I didn't. We're not like saying that, oh, you should have been, you should build yourself fear, no, no, no, I shouldn't. Wisdom, yes, but we had preparation for all that. Same way you should deal with your other fears.
Speaker 3:So distorted thinking was I couldn't be alone. So then you would ask yourself well, what's the real thought there? Is it that you can't be alone? Say no, it's not that because I'm alone. Is it that you would be in a hotel room? That's what scares you. No, I've been in a hotel room. Can you be in a different place from your wife? Yes, I can be a different place from my wife. Four, can you? You would uh ask yourself.
Speaker 3:So what we would do is they talk about this. It's probably the easiest one to remember is um, catch it, check it, change it. You actually taught me that. I never heard that way of explaining this. There's a chart we use in rbt and stuff, but I like that catch because catch it is the thought. This is stupid. Why would I think I can't get on a plane away from my wife? But how you do that is you check that thought and the way you check it in one of the ways. There's multiple different ways. You can reframe that thought. You can do a lot of things. I personally like the Socratic method where you just saw me do this.
Speaker 3:You ask a bunch of questions to verify that what you're saying. Is there evidence to prove it? And we as Christians love that, because we as Christians, we like saying if the Bible doesn't say it, we don't say it. In other words, I don't have to worry about so many things that we may feel they're wrong or whatever. If the scriptures aren't clear about it, I don't have to worry about it. So we hold to that. Is it biblically based thinking? And that's what we want to do with those distorted, those catch that thought, check it, say wait, wait, wait. Does the Bible say it? Oh, when the Bible says that, does it mean this? You sit and you work yourself into that.
Speaker 2:Wait, with the Bible saying it, you're saying like I'm afraid to travel without my wife. You're saying the Bible doesn't.
Speaker 3:Well, I would say first of all, does the Bible say you should be afraid when you travel away from your wife? No, does the Bible say that you're restricted from travel when you sit? No, the Bible doesn't say that. Does the Bible say that Jesus leaves you? When you go into rooms, hotel rooms, by yourself? Does the Bible say, or you might. Then, of course, you go to other things you just go to and remember. Our brains go like this Boom boom, boom boom. Five million questions.
Speaker 3:And I think of being like a witness on the witness stand in federal court, and I can remember being on a witness. I loved it. I testified seven days straight one time in a federal trial and I'm seven days on the witness stand and the whole time they're just hitting me with questions, questions, questions. And that's what you want to do with these distorted thoughts is just put them on the stand and ask, say okay. So you work yourself down to where you're, coming to your own conclusion that, well, the hotel room isn't what scares me. Being away from my wife doesn't scare me. Being not busy doesn't scare me, because sometimes I'm not busy. What is it that really scares me? Oh, I'm going to get this feeling. Oh, what is that feeling you're going to get? Oh, I get a feeling. Oh, I'm going to get this feeling. Oh, what is that feeling you're going to get? Oh, I get a feeling. Well, where is the feeling at? It's in my stomach. It's in the middle of my stomach. What is it A feeling that makes you? Does it cause you great physical harm? Do you have to go to a doctor when you have this feeling? No, so you see what I mean. And you're working yourself down to like realize this distorted thought makes no sense. And so you're catch it, check it and then change.
Speaker 3:It is where I say the scriptures come in so well, because then and it doesn't always work this way but then you can memorize a lot of the scriptures that say you know, do not fear. Or scripture says don't even be dismayed. He says god is so gracious. He says don't even, don't even be dismayed. Or in matthew 6, in the greek language, it says do not worry, do not worry, do not worry three times. Or do not fear. He really says do not be uneasy. And I think that's so helpful for us, because often we're just uneasy. We're not like. You know, nobody ever knew I had these fears. I mean, you lived in the house where you never knew I was troubled by these things. But uneasy that's a better description of how we feel a lot of times.
Speaker 3:Just uneasy and so anyway, I can memorize those verses to change my thinking.
Speaker 2:And it's all like 2 Corinthians, 10, 5, take your thoughts captive and submit them. That's where it's like. This isn't a sidestep from Scripture. This is like a tool that Scripture encourages, that the Lord wants to transform us through our mind.
Speaker 3:And so we can catch our thoughts, and that verse is a really good verse on this. It says to demolish arguments, and the only thing I would say there is be careful to always understand the scripture in its context to make sure that it applies to what you're doing, but here, where it talks about getting a hold of these thoughts, it's really talking about getting the arguments against Christianity. Demolish those arguments and get your thoughts under control. This is really right, though, and he repeats it many times. You know, one of the things I did to manage my fears was I memorized a lot of Scripture, and so I memorized. When I was young, I memorized books of the Bible, epistles, and memorized large sections. Colossians 3 is just one of those great passages that helps you deal with all those different things, and by you flushing your mind with the word of God, it really helps you to also think straight and to help you in that change of category.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. Okay, so we have distorted thinking and there's different categories for that. There's black and white thinking. I have, like my kids chart in it with kids terms of all the different types of distorted thinking. That can help you identify it.
Speaker 3:Like in it with kids, terms of all the different types of distorted thinking that can help you identify it like. What's the term they use with kids? Um well, there's pictures.
Speaker 2:There's pictures um so black and white thinking is one of them um, there's a whole thing you can look it up yeah, black and white thinking is right out of cbt yeah, um, so there's one, and then I hear you talk about radical acceptance a lot. Is that something that has helped you with fears in particular, and what is that concept?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the idea of acceptance there's, um, it's a little bit of a danger on that one, I think, um, because what they're trying to teach you is this is really good, it's a Buddhist thought. It's a Buddhist thought that says, uh, accept things as they are, not as you want them to be, or accept people as they are, not as you want them to be. Well, what I would say is accept things as God made them, not as you want them to be, or accept people as God made them not as you want them to be.
Speaker 3:And the reason that matters is because I know I really hate it when I hear Christians say it is what it is. That's not true. That's just not true. It is not what it is. Our wonderful Lord Jesus is in everything that's going on. We don't need to have that fatalist attitude. You know you're going through struggles right now. I don't say to you it's of no help, nor is it biblically coherent to say, well, you know that's life. No, no, our sovereign God, he loves us too much for that. So the struggles you're going through, our Jesus is there with you through them and I just want you to see it better. So anyway, radical acceptance.
Speaker 3:The fear can be, if you go wrong on this, is you could say well, I've got to accept you, no matter what you do to me. So you're in a relationship where the person is abusing and mistreating you and you say I have to accept everybody where they are. So I have to accept this person who's abusing me. I have to stay in the relationship. No, you don't. That's not what that's saying. I mean, I don't know what the guy said, who came up with that idea, but the Bible certainly doesn't say that. So my acceptance of people and my acceptance of circumstances is very wise and very healthy, because God made the circumstances. I got to accept them as they are. But how I react to those circumstances will help me a lot. Once I can accept them, then it helps me if I can use those other categories then to fight it back.
Speaker 2:So what's an example of how that helped you, either in your police work or in a fear outside of that, or a worry of how radical acceptance actually looks?
Speaker 3:Well, one is to accept circumstances. So they talk about mindfulness and the idea of really I see it as biblical gratefulness is I'm sitting on a plane and I get this flash. Or I get a flash I'm going to be on a plane Saturday night, so I get a flash. Now I'm going to have an anxious moment on that plane, sitting by myself, right? You say, well, if that happened, what would be? I would accept that. I'm on a plane, I'm around and to me I convert it to gratefulness. I'm around other people, nice people. I'm in this nice seat on a nice plane, able to do things that people only dream of in most parts of the world. I'm on my way to go see friends that are going to be happy to see me, who want me to come. You see what I mean. And I'm going to accept the circumstances they are. I'm not going to try to change them. I'm going to accept them the way they are.
Speaker 2:And same with flawed people, I guess is a bigger example of just like yeah, this person I love is that's how they are and I can pray for them to change and believe they'll change, but accept the reality today instead of always pushing against it.
Speaker 1:You have to deal with that in your marriage a lot, don't you?
Speaker 2:Actually right now with the relationship here. No, I'm kidding, no, I think he has to deal with that with me, like she's Radical acceptance.
Speaker 1:My poor wife.
Speaker 2:My flawed wife. We have a lot of irrational fears and can all identify with that in different ways at different times, and peeling back the layers to kind of identify what's what and and catch it and change it is so helpful. What would you say to the person that has actual real I don't want to say real, they're all. They all feel very real but tangible, maybe logical, imminent fears, which would apply to something on the police department too. What would you say to those?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think one that's important is what would we say? We're laymen just trying to take a stab at this. So really there's smart people who are studying this, who could give you really good advice.
Speaker 3:For me, let's talk about my personal approach is with legitimate fears. Let's say, I have a legitimate fear that someone is going to kill me on the police department. So what do I do when that happens? I try to take that legitimate fear and I evaluate it against evidence Again. Is this fear based on? Well, is it possible that somebody could kill you? Yes, is it a high risk or a low risk? Well, with the work I do, it's a higher risk. Oh, really.
Speaker 3:What are the statistics? How many undercover policemen have been killed in Washington DC? Oh, well, it's only wow, there's only been one or two. And how many years have there been police? Well, there's been 200 years of police, and there have been 200 years in Washington DC. And how many police? Oh, there's 30,000 or so at any point in the city. All these different agencies, well, wait, what are the chances? And then, what do you fear If you get killed? What happens? Is it the bullet hitting you? Is it a knife? Are you worried they're going to push you off a building? What are those fears? And so you would help to delineate that, and the more questions you ask, you'll find out based on evidence-based thinking. All I'm doing is reducing my fear, so I can get back out there and do my job.
Speaker 2:Do you think you should ever have?
Speaker 3:fear. I think you know it's so interesting because the scriptures warn us do not fear. Do not fear multiple, 300 times, some say 365. Our wonderful savior, he loves us and he doesn't want us to be afraid. He doesn't want us to live in fear. So no, he says there's no need to really fear. But he also tells us that a man who builds a tower, plans it and thinks about it before he does, he'd be a fool not to. And he gives multiple examples of that. Matter of fact, he uses that to try to prepare you to get right with him, because he calls on us to remember eternity's forever. So he absolutely gives us warnings to have us react and get right with him. So there is that.
Speaker 3:But I would just say there's a couple things you do. One is you plan, so you can make a plan about your real fears. So it's a real fear that I could be a policeman and die. Okay, so let's do this. How about a bulletproof vest? Well, let's wear it. We didn't used to wear it, now we'll wear it. Should you carry a gun? Yeah, how about you go with two policemen? We know the statistics are less. Get killed in twos Four. Know more about your dope dealer.
Speaker 3:Make sure he doesn't meet you alone in his area, pull him to another. You follow what I'm saying. So we do all those things to take our fear that could be a legitimate warning and we plan as much as we can, but then, after the Department of Planning is done, you can't still be afraid. You follow what I mean. You've done everything. Department of Planning has come out. They laid it out on the groundwork. This is what you're to do Now you're still afraid. Now we've got to work through the check it, change it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess I think of our like a very not basic, but like a tangible example is, like some of our family members who are afraid of getting sick, or even friends, it seems more prominent.
Speaker 2:I was just thinking yesterday, like is it post pandemic that more people seem to be worried, especially for their small children. So let's say that rule applies Like I'll just decide not to go to like play places and I'll decide to wash our hands every time we leave school. I'll do these few things, um to to not be fearful and this isn't my particular fear, although it has been that of one of our kids, and they had tangible steps too for him of just like carry a bag with, you know, a water bottle in case in a bandaid, and your mom's phone number if you need it, so you're taking care of, in case you ever feel have the, the clinic at school be your safe spot in case you fear. Having the feeling is what it was for him. Um. So there's these tangible things we can do, but often either that planning can take you too far, to where then you're kind of trying to control, you know, your whole life and outcome, or the planning is not enough and you still are fearful, right? So then what?
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, first of all, I was just thinking about what a nice, wonderful group of people that are at your kid's school and that are in your kid's life, that care enough to have a little one to take it seriously enough because it's serious to him. So here's where you do, here's what you do. All those things are just God's grace.
Speaker 2:And some of that is counsel. Like we paid for counseling and I was just telling someone yesterday, I think you know it's clear in scripture that we're to live in community and have a wise counsel and a multitude of counselors and sometimes in our day and age, for better or for worse, that sometimes as a paid resource, even though I feel like that's unfortunate and that's not accessible to everyone, but sometimes that looks like paying to get counseling which I feel like this would be a way more robust conversation if we had a um somebody really knew what they're talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um, but uh, so that, to be honest, comes in that form, and also medication, like you touched on, and so that's very valuable, but go ahead with what you're saying.
Speaker 3:Oh, I think that's great. I think what you said is great. You work with somebody and, and, and I have a fear of it. It's called emetophobia fear of throwing up. I don't know why I have this fear. I really don't have any idea. But when you press people on it and you ask questions, it's really helpful. You know, you say are you afraid of the moment of throwing up? Are you afraid of getting sick before you throw up? Are you afraid of the sensation? Are you afraid of the toilet? Are you afraid of being sick up? Are you afraid of the sensation? Are you afraid of the toilet? Are you afraid of being sick forever? Are you afraid of you? See what I mean. And when you answer all those questions, before you know it, you start realizing well, wait a minute, I'm really only afraid of something that lasts three seconds, so why would I be afraid of something that lasts three seconds? So you're right now nodding your head because you don't have that fear.
Speaker 1:That why you're so comfortable.
Speaker 3:You're like, yes, yes, obviously, obviously, of course and then you got your goofy fear and I'm here like what do you think? I have this friend who's really petrified of flying. I mean petrified like he. He gets drunk before he's on the plane and he takes drink. I mean, he's like very scared of that and he's a police officer too right was.
Speaker 3:I don't mean to say that he was using drugs while he was a policeman. I'm just saying, when he got on a plane he was a tough guy. He was a truly tough guy. But when he gets on a plane it scares him.
Speaker 2:No, I'm just saying it adds context that he was like your sidekick or, I don't know, your partner in all these actual dangerous things and he's afraid of fire.
Speaker 3:He's retired, oh, so afraid so afraid, yeah, but at people that were scared of COVID and wearing masks and all, he would get so mad. So I just would have to say to him you know which one's more rational, which one's more rational? Yeah, you know either one. We're both dumb. You know if we're over fear of either. So it's just the way we are.
Speaker 3:You know, I'm in a position of strength on so many fears people have, because I only have a few phobias I don't know about. I'll thank the Lord I don't have a thousand phobias, but yeah, but you would use this same method. And if it's not clear, let me make it clear. Catch the thought, figure out. What is this distorted thought? What is this thought that doesn't make any sense? Why am I thinking that? Figure out what that is and what's the bottom of it. Second one you do is you check it and that's how you get to the bottom of it.
Speaker 3:Me, I've only used one way here. There's reframing, there's black and white thinking, there's all different types of things you can learn, but I figure, on a short time, best thing I could teach you is Socratic method. So that just means evidence-based thinking. So take in your thought, whatever that crazy thought is, and work it down and all you're trying to do is just lower it, make it less painful than it was when you got it, and then change it. And I think the word of God is really helpful there. Or reason, or ration. The Lord's, the Lord's truth, truth is all truth, god's truth. So if I say planes don't go down very often, I don't need a verse to say that it's true. Planes don't go down very often.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and do you think people should face their fears? Are you for desensitization, if that, or just like you know? This setting or this person or whatever makes me fearful. Do I face my fears?
Speaker 3:Well, let's say this, we can say a couple of things for sure. There's a couple of different therapies that work really well statistically with human beings. So CBT cognitive behavioral therapy works with about 50 to 75% of humanity. That ought to get our attention, ought to say, wow, it helps that many people. Maybe it's worth you know, learning about. In the same way, desensitization is something they use during rbt or cbt. So do I like it, do I think or do I recommend people go do it just on their own, without a therapist? I don't think I'm doing that because I don't know what their desensitization is like. If mine was worried about getting shot, you wouldn wouldn't say, oh, go get shot. You'd say, uh, wait a second, why don't you do it in other ways, you know? So, uh, you don't need to have everybody who's who's scared of heights to stand on top of a building. That isn't the first thing you do, but with therapy it could be helpful to desensitize some of that. You know. Just remind yourself wait a minute. Nothing happened when that happened, so it's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and with the mindfulness you touched on, I think our nervous system, like our bodies, respond Like we're saying if there was a bear, you would feel it, and so finding ways to calm our nervous system is really valuable, I think, as you chug Diet Coke.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:As a way to reduce the amount and feelings of fear, if you can first just use strategies to calm yourself, which there's quite a few.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, there are quite a few strategies. What's that? Do you do that? What's that? Use strategies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to feel calm besides the thinking part.
Speaker 3:No, I don't those other ones. I've never learned that very well. Oh, I've done a few times that breathing deep through your nose.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's good. I mean it's absolutely good. A matter of fact, again, it's empirically proven, so it's. It's gotta be good. But it isn't something. Yeah, I've heard all kind. I mean I've had other people tell me all kinds of things I was supposed to. I had a guy one time tell me to hold my head this way. I don't know that stuff isn't easy for me. If it's logical and it's something I can square with Scripture or it's reasonable to my little brain, I can do it.
Speaker 2:That's valuable to say too. Not every strategy is going to be a strategy that speaks to you and where you're at it doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Speaker 3:All counselors are all please, medicinal help or all everything is is bad. I think that's so critical. If we say anything is to remember that if you try one medicine, you're going to need three before you get to the right one often, and it's going to take you six weeks or eight weeks. Okay, two. Most people don't like the first counselor any more than you like your first date with anybody. So when, when you come home, your first day of work's not good, your first day at church is not good, your first day with a counselor is not usually great. So the idea that we have to stick with things and give them time and try to learn from them is so important. I think it's so important.
Speaker 3:Like REBT, remember I had this in my ear, I mean for several years before I used it, several years before I used it. And that was me and I was suffering, but I'm suffering on my own. Nobody knows I'm suffering, but I'm suffering on my own. And then when the Lord got me to really listen to it and it's been so helpful, you see what I mean. So just understand it would have benefited me to catch on then instead of now.
Speaker 2:So do it today. That's your charge, I think so yeah, Get help today. Yes, we don't always have the tools within ourselves. We need the Lord and outside resources.
Speaker 3:Oh, and God's been so gracious to give us so many resources and access to so many resources, even for those who can't afford counseling at all. There's so much out there and God's word is so good and there's a pastor that will listen to him as well.
Speaker 2:Okay, so what do you view the difference from being bold and reckless, you know, in your work, in your parenting, in your life, as far as managing fears and realities?
Speaker 3:I think I was thinking about, as you were thinking about, that there was a term in police work we call being a cowboy, and of course that doesn't work as good in a generation like ours where you don't even see cowboy movies or whatever. We all grew up on cowboy movies. So the cowboy was this guy on his own who would kick down any door, run in anywhere no fear of anything, and he really did it. The cowboy did it for his own glory. That was really the point. So when he'd save the woman or whatever, he'd walk out, you know. So cops would say look man, don't be a cowboy. Okay, Go into this. In other words, plan, do what's safe as much as you can. It's still going to be dangerous, but do what's safe, Don't be a cowboy, Don't be a jerk. Basically, and I think in our parenting is an excellent example, as I have my grandkids and I look at the, you know I want to put them all in a box and protect them until they're old enough to protect themselves. You know, they're too dumb to protect themselves. They got to, you know. So I want to do that. But that that isn't sensible, is it? But on the other hand, I don't want to be a cowboy parent where I say, hey kids, live it up, do what you want. And they're out climbing on the roof and I'm like do what you want, You'll be fine.
Speaker 3:That would be insane, Because why? Statistics would tell me that it's unsafe for a four-year-old to be walking on a roof. In the same way, washing your hands or not, we would have this debate. Is it important to not share drinks and wash your hands? To me, there's evidence to say you're safer if you wash your hands. So what does it hurt? Make the kid wash their hands. Share drinks why do that? We got enough disease in the world. Why do we want to share it around? To me, that's reasonable. But if it gets to the point where it's impossible, you know you're on a trip, you only have one drink, you don't have enough money for one drink, and suddenly everybody's going to die of thirst because they can't share a drink, you see what I mean. But in normal throws of life you could put certain boundaries that are reasonable, and that's just. That's not being reckless, it's just being bold. I still can move forward.
Speaker 2:As a parent, I've created some things, but at some point a child can get sick, or whatever thing you're afraid, yeah, yeah, it seems like maybe it's putting guardrails, for safety being the key term and making sure that's, let's say, in parenting for their safety, not for our fears.
Speaker 1:So I'm not going to let a four-year-old run into the street for their safety, that is going to harm them, but I might.
Speaker 2:If I'm afraid of them going at the top of the slide when they're physically able, that's my fear, maybe holding them back, that can say I'm going to let you go down, because that's just my fear holding you back. So maybe assessing where those guardrails are. Like as a cop, I'm going to go in, not without my bulletproof vest, but with it. But I'm still going to go in and I'm not going to let my fear hold me back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2:So that's maybe a difference in not letting fear hold you back, but obviously safety being at the forefront.
Speaker 3:There's a book that I should have read, but it's the title of the book. It says feel the fear and do it anyway. That's a big one for me, because I always was like at all costs, avoid feeling fear. Avoid feeling fear. Big thing for me was to say I can feel that and still be able to manage this situation and so, anyway, that's really important. As a parent, you got to feel the fear and do it anyway. Yeah, otherwise you don't have kids, you know, Otherwise you don't date, otherwise you never apply for a job. Feel the fear of rejection and all those things, but do it anyway.
Speaker 2:Do it scared.
Speaker 3:Yeah, do it scared. I like that, you can always eradicate the fear, but yeah, All you try to do is lower it and allow the Lord and the Holy Spirit to help you manage it. That's my opinion.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, should we end on our classic. What would you tell real quick? What would you tell a cop, a criminal and a Christian about?
Speaker 3:fear. Do you say real quick, because I was not quick in the past.
Speaker 2:No, your thoughts are quick.
Speaker 3:All over the place. Yeah Cop. What would I tell a cop?
Speaker 2:I mean, do you feel like most cops have less fear than the average person and that's what gets them into it? Or do you feel like most of them are managing fear for their job?
Speaker 3:All humans manage fear. I don't know what the statistics are on how anxious certain people are than others I don't know the numbers on that but I would say all humans manage fear. So if they're reasonable, they probably have some fear. I think in this day and age they elevate fear too high and they tell cops all the time you have to be afraid of everything. And they live in this world like being afraid of a terrorist attack, a biological Now here? We've never had one. Does that mean that we don't, you know, prepare for it? Yes, but it's not a realistic fear to think about all the time. It's a terrorist attack.
Speaker 3:You need to go out and be the police every day, and most of that time you're going to spend talking to people in domestic disturbance and so on. So reduce that. Don't let the fear stop you, I would say as a policeman. Secondly, to the criminal I would say let fear drive you away from where you're living. Let the fear of God change you so that you're able to get redemption from your life and the freedom that only Christ can offer. And then for the Christian I would say look, get in the business of digging into God's word, loving his scriptures, knowing the word more and, at the same time, learning what God has used and taught other psychologists and all, and combine those two and watch how Jesus can free you, liberate you from the feelings that are driving you nuts.
Speaker 2:That's really good. Freedom is kind of the antidote of fear in some ways. Just living free to be who God designed you to be and do what he designed you to do, but we won't be without that in this life, but it also can help us long for heaven, where there will be no fear. So this is really good, I think everyone relates to it and could be a whole series in different ways, and maybe we'll bring on some of the pros.
Speaker 3:So thanks, it was good.
Speaker 2:Was I not a pro? Well, yes, you're a pro in your own experience.
