Cops, Criminals, and Christ
"Cops, Criminals & Christ" is a podcast delving into the intertwining worlds of law enforcement, crime, and faith. With Dale Sutherland, a former narcotics Sergeant turned pastor, it features gripping narratives and candid interviews exploring behind-the-scenes work of life undercover, as well as the transformative power of faith in the lives of both cops and criminals. Tune in for compelling insights and real-life stories that challenge, inspire, and reveal God’s grace available through it all, at the hands of its host and Dale’s daughter, Kristen Crew.
Cops, Criminals, and Christ
Breaking Chains: A Cop's Journey from Addiction to Redemption (Part 2)
Ivan, a former cop and current pastor, shares his journey from alcoholism to sobriety and how his relationship with Christ transformed his life. His story powerfully illustrates that addiction's root cause is universal across all struggles—whether substance abuse or other sins—and only Christ can provide true healing.
• Ivan describes himself succinctly as "a cop, a criminal, and now with Christ"
• He details how he manipulated AA meetings and testing requirements while still drinking
• The cycle of addiction involved thousands of empty promises to quit
• Ivan explains why hitting "rock bottom" doesn't lead to repentance—only God's goodness does
• The difference between secondhand Christianity and personal relationship with Christ
• How sanctification is a process rather than a single moment of transformation
• Ivan highlights 2 Corinthians 5:21 as the "exchange" that changed everything
• Six years sober, Ivan credits seeing himself as a new creation in Christ
• The importance of empathy for both cops and criminals in understanding struggle
• Finding freedom by following Jesus rather than relying on willpower
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Website: theundercoverpastor.com
Welcome to the Cops, criminals and Christ podcast, where we will hear interesting stories and unique perspectives about the work of cops, the world of criminals and how faith plays a role in the lives of both. Dale Sutherland was an undercover cop and a pastor for many years and will share interesting stories and perspectives and interview guests. I'm your host, his daughter Kristen Kru. Come join us to learn more about these powerful forces and how they shape the lives of people just like you. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:You're back for Cops, criminals and Christ podcast. I'm here talking to Ivan Now. Ivan now is a pastor, but before he had a bit of a drinking problem and what I want to know is how did he stop drinking and how does it affect all of us with our addictions? Is there anything we can learn? Let's talk to Ivan. We talked some before. We'll give you, give me a two minute version of your life, kind of overview where you were, where you are today.
Speaker 3:I think even the title of this podcast kind of sums it up.
Speaker 2:I was a cop.
Speaker 3:I was a criminal, yeah, and now I'm with Christ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I started in law enforcement when I was young. I got into legal problems because of drinking, because of alcohol, but then Christ redeemed me and now you're doing what I now I'm a pastor with boost others, uh, with the church so, so okay.
Speaker 2:So I gotta hear more about boost others. I wanted to talk more about it. You've mentioned some in the past, but I want to hear more about it and, as I'm uh on the board as well, I just love what you're doing and and really I think it's important for everybody to know that there's uh, by god's grace, there's lots of godly people out here who love the poor and care for the needy and certainly care for the kind of hurt. But Ivan is what can't be captured in a podcast is he's got what you might say the special sauce that makes him 10 times better than the rest of us, just tremendously empathetic and godly and genuinely concerned. So you know it's funny because if I my podcast would sell more if I had a famous celebrity in my podcast, you know. But in God's eyes you're the big celebrity, believe me. You know, the values of God's system is just very different than what the Lord's done with your life. It's just proof of your celebrity status and it's really what the Lord has done, not what Ivan has done.
Speaker 2:Right, which is so different, because I listen sometimes to podcasts and I listen to things. I'm so disgusted with them telling us how great the person is that they're going to talk about, when the truth is we're crediting the wrong person. Why do you think you turned out the way you did? I mean, tell us.
Speaker 3:I think what you said was right on. It's not looking at what we did, because if I did that man I'd be depressed, but it's looking at what Jesus did for us. It's looking at what God did for us and realizing, like you said, grace, like what Paul says. By the grace of God I am what I am. You know, god forbid that we were sum total of the decisions that we've made and what we've done, and so I thank God that he freed me from that, from that way of thinking. You know, my struggle was alcohol, but the same with every man, you know there's lust and so many things that come with that whole lifestyle.
Speaker 3:But I think you know I went to AA because I had to. It was part of the court process or whatever thing, so I had to. I scheduled it on nights where because they would test you, you know, every time you came in to see if you'd been drinking. But I knew that it took three days to get that out of your system, and so I would schedule it on nights where it was long enough that I could still drink while I'm doing this process, but I would drink enough water to get it out of my system in three days and then have my meeting and I would test clean.
Speaker 2:Now you think every addict really has a story like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I know what it's like because I've been there, you know, and I know all the ways to cheat the system and to lie to your family and to do all these things, to to kind of, uh, try to make a excuse for yourself or whatever. Um cause, even when I was going through all of that, I was still drinking, you know, uh.
Speaker 2:So it wasn't that stuff helped me, uh, you know it was can I ask you how many times I want you to think back and feel the moments? How many times did you say enough, and I'm never going to drink again?
Speaker 3:Oh man, thousands of times and I try to do it on my own strength and I'll never forget, even one time after doing that and still drinking, I said how am I ever going to stop? I liked doing this, you know. It's not even something that I don't like, I don't want to do it, but I just keep doing it and I enjoy it. I like it, you know. And just seeing it as a like a bottomless pit, like just a hopeless situation of what? How can I ever climb out of this?
Speaker 2:Do you think you ever mental health wise? You know that's a big word nowadays which guys like you would never use. You would never. It would have been embarrassing growing up for you to say you were going to seek help or whatever. Right, yeah. So so now, looking back, I mean, do you think you struggled some with depression during that time period?
Speaker 3:And it is a depressant so.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I think that all forms of addiction, to an extent, are to try to cope with some of those things. It's like you trying to figure out how can I help my situation or whatever. Not to put myself in everybody's situation, because everybody's different but I think that to an extent, to a degree whether it be drugs, alcohol, sex, you know any addiction, I think, is a way that we try to fix our own situation or try to help our own circumstances and we try to forget about it for a little while or try to feel good for a little bit, but in reality it just makes the situation worse.
Speaker 2:And your story of going on. How long did it go on, from the time you can remember the first time you said enough to the time you actually stopped. Was it like a week, two weeks, six years, 10 years?
Speaker 3:It was a couple of years. It was a couple of years. I remember just the first couple of times. You know drinking to the point of not remembering and you know waking up with the hangover and everybody goes through that situation of like man, I'll never do this again or whatever. But it was just a couple hours later I was doing it all over again doing it all over again.
Speaker 2:Isn't it funny that God has built our bodies so that oftentimes, things that are bad for us have really bad side effects too. It's almost like some things in life like overeating you know you don't feel it right then, you know, but you do see it eventually.
Speaker 2:In the same way with drinking. At the moment it's fine, everything's good, but it isn't too long I mean hours before you're feeling very unhappy. Your body doesn't like it. It's almost like God built us to reject certain things. You think about sexually transmitted diseases and all the other ramifications of drugs. You know, when you see somebody, I remember crackheads with their fingers burned from the thing and they're now going from normal weight to 10 pounds or whatever. But I mean there's all these like physical things that go on.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Uh, what was the sickest you ever got. If you run over.
Speaker 3:Oh man, I remember being sick so many times. But what's incredible about not only me, but all those uh, you know everybody who goes through addiction is none of that deters you, none of that stops you, you would think man wake up.
Speaker 3:Don't you see what this is doing to you, right? But none of that is what changes somebody, and that's why I just go back to what the Bible says it's the goodness of God that leads to repentance. It's not hitting rock bottom, because I hit rock bottom and then found another rock bottom to hit, and I know that a lot of people can identify with that too. But it's not the rock bottom that leads you to repentance. It's God and His goodness, his kindness.
Speaker 2:So are we saying that all addicts in the world, everywhere, if they read you know the goodness of God that they're going to stop their sexual addiction, they're going to stop drinking, they're going to stop using drugs immediately and it'll all be done? All they got to do is see that verse. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 3:Not at all, because it wasn't even the case for me, For you. You know, I grew up in church and so I had a lot of verses memorized and I knew how to say different things. I knew the Romans wrote and everything. But I think it's when it becomes real to you, when it becomes more than just words on a piece of paper or words from a sermon from a pastor or something. And that's why, in the previous podcast, I said I was a secondhand Christian. You know, I went through the motions, I did the steps, you know, but it wasn't.
Speaker 3:I give this example of you know, my sister-in-law really knows my wife and I could ask my sister-in-law about my wife and she could tell me everything that she knows about my wife. But it's not the same thing as me knowing my wife as my wife, you know. So it's not only about you know. The difference, for me, anyway, was not only just getting this second hand, was not only just hearing what some preacher had to say about who God was, and but knowing him for myself and having that one-on-one, intimate relationship with him was, was what made the difference.
Speaker 2:So, when you're getting over this, I think it's really critical, because I really believe that if I say addiction, you know 2% of the population perks up, or the parents of someone addicted, so to speak. Well, the problem is, a hundred percent of us are addicted. Right, we're addicted to sin, and it just comes out in different ways. Sin of your choice, right, some just have worse ramifications, right? I mean, isn't that what you've learned?
Speaker 2:I mean, if you look at life loss just killed you as much as alcohol you know um, or kills as many people as alcohol. So does anger, anger right relationships and so on. Would you agree with that that? Overall, you've seen, even when your job now you're seeing the ramifications of those things absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it plays out in in different ways. Um, you know, for me it could be one thing, for somebody else it could be one thing, for somebody else it could be another thing. But I think the principle is still the same. It's still the fruit might be different, but the root's the same.
Speaker 2:The fruit might be different, but the root's the same. That's great, yeah, that's great when you think about this in the sanctification process. I think it's important Because all of us really like I say, we have a root problem that's causing us to do things we don't want. Whether it's just somebody who wants to eat better or go, you know, they just keep doing the thing they don't want to do, and I think what you said is critical, that is, I'm in the middle of my peanut butter pie last night, thinking that I shouldn't be eating this now. I should be going to bed, and I'm in the middle of it. And I'm in the middle of it, and I'm thinking the same as you. I really like it, though.
Speaker 2:I really like it, though, and I've thought that at various times, with different things, different sins I commit, and I think that's critical to notice that, because, number one, we've got to acknowledge the truth and see why we're going back to it. And then, secondly, how do we get out, and it's not normally. Almost never is it one verse of Scripture or one prayer. I prayed, or one moment I had, you know? Did you find that? I mean, how many moments do you think Jesus used to get you out of alcohol?
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, Lots. And I think the realization of those moments you know that it was man, he was here at this time, he was here at this time, he was here, here is is part of that, that of that goodness of God that leads to repentance. So it's not that I think that word leads means like a process of it. You know, it's not just a one-time, you know deal. I think that people can sometimes go through a process of this realization of knowing who they are, of knowing who God is, Isn't that?
Speaker 2:wonderful and the closer it's like, the closer. It's like focusing a camera we have all these cameras Focusing a camera and the closer you get in on God. Now the problem we have in marriage, the reason we have our problems in marriage at all, is because the closer we get to each other, the less we like, Because we're just not exactly what we got, what we thought we were getting. But the closer you get to Jesus, the better, the better, the better he gets, that's right.
Speaker 2:He's closer to you now than he was six years ago, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, and there's a verse in Ephesians that says the love of Christ surpasses all knowledge. It's like you know more than what you think. He loves you. He loves you More than you know that you could imagine that he does. He does, and so the closer you get to him and I think getting closer to him comes from knowing that he loves you you know you're not confident in going to somebody that you think hates you or that's upset with you, but knowing that he loves you gives you that confidence to you know.
Speaker 3:okay, let me get a little bit closer. A little bit closer and realizing that you know, even in a time of trouble we can approach the throne of grace. And that's what we find.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the cool thing is for everybody on the planet criminal cop, whoever you are you know you've got one message and that is that all of them can get a throne of grace. Now the problem is that there's coming a time Hebrews 9.20 says it's one hundred men wants to die and then the judgment. That will not be a throne of grace. Then they'll face judgment.
Speaker 2:It'll be like your moment in court, except a thousand times worse, because the worst thing you had to look forward to was a fine, maybe a day in jail, suspension of license, loss of job. That's all bad, but doesn't compare to the judgment that's coming for those who refuse to go to the throne of grace. Now, that's where it's grace, man, Go while the goodness of God is leading you, because eventually it's going to be. He's going to have to judge this world, all of us, for breaking his law, and be. He's going to have to judge this world, all of us, for breaking his law. And I think, whether you talk to Ivan or me or my wife, who's lived a 10 times better life than any of us, but she still would have this markers of breaking God's law, and so if she didn't have Christ, she would be facing this judgment. And so, man, I want people to get the throne of grace, not the throne of judgment.
Speaker 2:It only happens now, so people can stop right now. I like what you were saying about dating and marriage. You got married to your wife. That was a moment, it was a commitment, you know, and it had to happen, or else the relationship just didn't end. For us as people, we can know about God, we can love this podcast, love what Ivan does, love helping children, but we've got to at some point get committed. We got to look in front of you, know the world, and say I'm committed to Jesus Christ. He needs to take over my life and I need all my sins forgiven and then you repent and give him your life. That can happen and that's what happened with you, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think of Paul in Romans 7 that you know, said exactly the same thing. I said it's like man the good I want to do, I don't do, and the bad I don't want to do, I still do. Who can save me from this? And the answer that he gives at the end of that chapter is Jesus, you know. So it's just putting all your dependence on him. Realizing at least you know, for me in my case, and I think for so many is the more you try the more you're going to fail because you're trying it on your own strength.
Speaker 3:You know whether it be through self-discipline or through you know these step programs or anything like that and praise God for them. They've helped so many people. But I think the real answer to to not only the, that fruit but the root problem is is Jesus?
Speaker 2:It's interesting to get to the point you're at now where you've been alcohol-free for you said six years. Yeah, okay, you listened to a lot of sermons. Is that fair? Yeah, you heard a lot of Christian songs. Yeah, parents talk to you. Yeah, friends talk to you. Yeah, wife talks to you. Yes, your bosses talk to you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so what you could say is all that was useless. All that mattered was your moment. Liquor store.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that really isn't true, is it?
Speaker 2:I mean really the sermons. You heard the parents what they told you, your wife telling you. The Lord used all of those things to get you to the point of sanctification where you said enough is enough. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:It wasn't really one moment.
Speaker 2:It wasn't just one thing. It's like the Lord was loading you.
Speaker 3:Like right now you're quoting a scripture that you learned while you're messing up. Yeah, it wasn't like I knew all of this, you know at one time and I'm still learning, you know, every single day. There's a story in Luke 15 that Jesus gives about the lost coin, the lost sheep and the prodigal son, and in all three stories it's him going to search. You know, even in the prodigal son story is when he came to himself, when he realized who he was, who his father was, the father ran to him and he was the one who cleaned him. He was the one who put a ring on his finger and shoes on his feet and everything like that.
Speaker 3:And so it's sometimes I think we think, like man, I got to fix myself up or I got to, you know, but like Paul says, it's useless the good that you want to do you're not going to be able to do.
Speaker 3:It's understanding that it's him who does it for you and it's kind of surrendering to allow him to do that in your life and realizing you know what he has done and it's a progressive thing, you know, it doesn't always all happen at once, immediately, like that, but I think through the relationship with him, through you know, like you mentioned hearing sermons, or you know worship songs and stuff. They mean so much different to me now. You know, before it used to be just a song that you sing and it sounds pretty and you know whatever. But even that song, the Goodness of God, it says you know your goodness is running after me. You know that comes from the Psalms. It says surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life. And I used to think it was. Well, it's the days that I earn it or the days that I deserve it, but it's not earned or deserved. It's realizing that it's every day.
Speaker 2:So let me ask you this six years ago you had your last drink. We've talked about that. Six years ago, I assume, you stopped partying. You gave up a lot right then yeah one uh, question is um how much do you think about it and wish you could be back there uh that I wish I could be back and fix everything oh, go back you know what?
Speaker 3:uh, I think at the beginning I would think about it a lot, but honestly, now it's not something that I really think about too much anymore, and I think that that comes in seeing yourself different, seeing that you're not the same anymore. The Bible says that we're a new creature in Christ, and so the old has passed. Behold, all things are made new and all things are of God, and so I think, seeing myself in a different way than just seeing myself as the alcoholic, as the guy who can't control himself, as you know, as how I used to see myself, I think that that has played a huge part in the way that I think also, yeah, I think that's really important in how you stay clear every day, because for those of us, because you're still struggling with different addictions you know all the problems of life.
Speaker 3:The same nature yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, as you're doing that, where are you seeing the victory? Where do you? What keeps you from, you know, going back to the bar tonight Because the thing that you thought was fun back then, by the way, let's just be honest, the pleasures in our pleasures for recent, he says, their pleasures- since they were fun, it's fun.
Speaker 2:Fun to do some of these bad things or some of these things that hurt us, but you don't do it, and so the every day of it do you find the Lord delivering you, little by little, to where it's less and less something that pulls you than it did maybe five and a half years ago.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely you know. And again, I think it all just comes back to relationship with him. When you see that he has that relationship with you, there's a couple of verses where Jesus says you know what you did to the least of these. You did it to me and you know. When Saul has his road to Damascus experience, he says Saul, why are you persecuting me? You know he wasn't persecuting the person, jesus, he was persecuting the church.
Speaker 3:But God just sees himself, so one with us you know, and that's Jesus' prayer in John 17, that they may be one even as we are one.
Speaker 3:And there's a verse I forget what it is, but it says that Eve was deceived by not seeing the simplicity that's in Christ, by not seeing that union that she had with him. And so when we see ourselves totally separate from him and how I used to think, like God's over there, he hates me and I'm over here and I hate him and we're just like two things that don't mix. It's like water and oil or something. That's what led to all the behavior and decisions that I was making. And then I tried to fix that need for him through substances, through lust, through alcohol, through drugs, but realizing that he's come to us. And there's a verse in 2 Corinthians that says he who knew no sin was made to be sin so that we would be made the righteousness of God in him. I think it is so pivotal. It's the gospel in one verse, I think, where everything that we ever could do and have done and will do was put on Jesus and everything that he.
Speaker 3:It's almost like a change in an exchange you know everything that I was and everything that I could ever do wrong and you know was put on him and he was. He gave me his righteousness. You know he took my sin and he gave me his righteousness. It's incredible to think about and it's something, I think, that we slowly realize more and more every day and stuff, and I think that that realization produces itself in how we live.
Speaker 2:I think that's powerful. I think if we thought about this podcast a lot of times we say what would you say to the cop about this, what would you say to the cop about this, what would you say to the criminal about it? So I'd say one to the cop. I'd say again I talk about this a lot for cops. But, uh, empathy is huge. But, um, empathy for other people and their struggles. Acknowledge your own struggles, uh, but realize that the root is the problem. The root is the problem. So, whether you're a cop, I don't care. I know you're not going to jail, I know you're not committing crime, but you've broken God's law.
Speaker 2:And so I would say deal with the root, Deal with the root.
Speaker 3:Go to.
Speaker 2:Jesus, let him take away your sin. You need forgiveness, like everybody else.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:To the criminal, to the guy who's been committing crimes, I would say, after story, after story, after story in the Bible of criminals that have been redeemed for Christ, story after story, or guys that were criminals even though they weren't charged with it, that we see the story and, wow, jesus makes a point to say he saved them.
Speaker 1:So for the criminal.
Speaker 2:My gosh, you're in a great place to repent and get to know Jesus now, because he'll redeem you right from where you're at.
Speaker 2:And for the Christian, I would say the sanctification process is long and I'm not going to say just hard, because it was enjoyable. It was enjoyable for you the first night you got a victory. It was enjoyable for you when you heard your wife give you a hug after the first week of sobriety. It was enjoyable for you when you heard your wife give you a hug after the first week of sobriety. It was enjoyable when you felt close to the Lord finally, where you didn't feel. But at the same time we can walk with Jesus in this relationship. He said very simple how do you come to Christ? Follow me, and that's the idea. Get behind Jesus, walk just in his footsteps, stay right next to him, do what Jesus would do, see him change your life. This
