Cops, Criminals, and Christ
"Cops, Criminals & Christ" is a podcast delving into the intertwining worlds of law enforcement, crime, and faith. With Dale Sutherland, a former narcotics Sergeant turned pastor, it features gripping narratives and candid interviews exploring behind-the-scenes work of life undercover, as well as the transformative power of faith in the lives of both cops and criminals. Tune in for compelling insights and real-life stories that challenge, inspire, and reveal God’s grace available through it all, at the hands of its host and Dale’s daughter, Kristen Crew.
Cops, Criminals, and Christ
A Navy SEAL Shares His Battle Stories and Beliefs with an Undercover Cop
A Navy SEAL turned pastor talks to the Undercover Pastor about how combat, cold-water survival, and hard training shape character and faith. Stories from Panama to Alaska reveal why gentleness is strength under control and why real salvation begins when self-rescue ends.
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Welcome to the Cops, Criminals, and Christ Podcast. Let's dive in. So, uh, Todd Peters, uh, my friend, Todd Peters, you're a pastor. I am. You're a pastor. When how long you've been a pastor?
SPEAKER_01:You know what? This December, it's uh 13 years.
SPEAKER_00:13 years.
SPEAKER_01:Since you gave me a phone call.
SPEAKER_00:Ruined your life. Yeah. 13 years you've been a pastor. And then you had another job before that. What was your job before that?
SPEAKER_01:I did. For 26 years I was a Navy SEAL.
SPEAKER_00:And uh you sometimes, if I remember right, you went through your training to be a pastor, some of your Bible training all while you were a SEAL, is that right? That and before.
SPEAKER_01:And before my poor wife, as a teenager, thought she was marrying a youth pastor.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, is that right?
SPEAKER_01:And then threw her a big curveball and became a Navy SEAL instead. How old were you when you decided? Uh I think I was in my early 20s when I did the shift.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So how old were you when you joined the SEALs? Same thing. I was, you know, like I turned 21 in Hell Week. Uh-huh. Really? So yeah, that was memorable. I didn't tell the instructors. They didn't want to celebrate the birthday with you. I'm thinking that Thursday night, one more day to go. I think I'll just keep that to myself. Happy birthday to me.
SPEAKER_00:No presents or anything?
SPEAKER_01:None. Well, I've got sand, sand and cold water, you know.
SPEAKER_00:So now everybody in the world has seen the different reality shows on buds and seals. You guys weren't thrilled about that.
SPEAKER_01:No. I'm thankful that I went in when there was no internet, there was no media. Like I found out about SEALs on Microfish, the internet you and I knew, you know, the viewfinder, right? And so I found one paragraph. It was like an Ernest Shackleton ad. It was like low pay, doubtful return, recognition upon success. And I was like, I'm in.
SPEAKER_00:Really? What is he?
SPEAKER_01:Low pay. Low pay, doubtful return, recognition upon success. And that was it. Like, and you don't know what the screen test is. You just try out in boot camp. And so I just showed up in week five. You get, you know, whether you're sick or not, you get one opportunity to try out. Five guys tried out with me. And what was kind of interesting, one guy was highly motivated from the inner city. Yeah. He pushed off the pool deck for the swim, sank right to the bottom. He couldn't even swim, but he wanted to try out. And so at the end of the day, I was the only guy that finished the screening test.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Out of five, you're the only one. Well, it wasn't that complicated, but again, it was just and then after the BUDS, what was your attrition rate during BUDS?
SPEAKER_01:Attrition rate, if I remember right, was about 85%.
SPEAKER_00:85% did not complete the course.
SPEAKER_01:Correct. Yeah, and usually it goes as high as 90.
SPEAKER_00:Really?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And then you learned a lot of empathy and concern for SEALs then. And when you became a trainer later, right?
SPEAKER_01:I did. I mean, the empathy only goes so far when you're uh when you're an instructor, you know, your job is to put the screws to it.
SPEAKER_00:You're saying that well, what did they call you when you're an instructor, Todd?
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, thanks for digging up that painful memory. So my nickname was uh the Prince of Darkness. Very official for a pastor.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a wonderful thing. So you were the Prince of Darkness, Darth Vader. You were there, and and yet you're a Christian all this time? I am. And then you're also in combat, and you're in combat in and out over the 26 years. Yeah. How often were you in combat or in combat situations or deployed or anything?
SPEAKER_01:Well, almost all the deployments were combat related, and whether or not you're getting shot at or not, you're on target. Yeah. And uh, but I think it it helps clarify for the audience, the listener, the Prince of Darkness comment. I have to clarify that. So the reason they called me that was all the instructors yell and cuss you out, and I would just bring them over close and whisper and tell them horrible things to do. And so that was more unnerving because you learn how to tune out someone yelling at you, right? Like if that's their only language, you can deal with that. But if it's that guy that's whispering to you and telling you awful things to do.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so let's uh I'm jumping around here, but uh yeah, let me get to the military. I want to come back to this training thing and your ski and your thoughts about training. So uh the first thing is combat-wise, you're you spent 26 years and uh you worked in the Naval Postal Service. Uh no, there are no SEALs delivered mail.
SPEAKER_01:No. You're doing we delivered other things. Yeah, delivered other things. Mostly.
SPEAKER_00:You're out overseas, all different places. Yeah. And how many times were you deployed in like combat situation or combat areas?
SPEAKER_01:20 deployments. 20 deployments. Over the 26 years. The first one, uh, memorable, a lot of people, uh, if they're older, they'll remember just cause where we removed Noriega uh from Panama. And so that was December 89. And my very first firefight, I was with four over four other buddies, and we had 60 plus guys engage, you know, and start shooting at us. And so we were like, right on, let's let's get this. And I remember like we we were in an army mic boat, and so that's like a landing craft, I think like saving Private Ryan, yeah, type thing. And there was an army kid, they were actually driving the boats, and he was behind a 50 cal, and I had a 16 with a 203 at the time. And so there was guys in a pilot house on this big cargo vessel shooting at us. And so a 203 is a grenade launcher, okay, about 300 yards away, and I just kind of Kentucky winded, and I was like, boom, and it was just like a perfect spiral right into the pilot house, and it's like boom-boom. And so they were done.
SPEAKER_00:That was a success.
SPEAKER_01:But then I noticed the army kid was laying on the bottom of the boat so he wouldn't get shot. I saw that big 50 cow, and I was like, it's kind of like a video game upgrade. So I just put my weapon down and got behind the 50 cow system. And uh 50 cow is very effective for eliminating threats. But what was interesting is the bad guys realized, even though there's only five of us, that they were losing, so they called in reinforcements, 250 more PDF, Panama uh defense force. Oh wow, they start coming in to flank us. And so they're coming around. They're they're mowing down and coming into the situation. We already landed on a pier. I was behind a bulldozer, and by the way, a bulldozer is really good cover. Uh it's a it's a comforting sound to hear bullets tinking off of that. And we did not know the 250 guys were coming, but the guys from Damneck and their little birds, they were flying to go do an op. They saw this massive group coming, so they started rocket attacking those guys and helping us out. And at the end of the day, I think through the carnage, a little over 30 guys surrendered to us. And uh they were super disheartened, you know, when they, you know, just all these dead guys around and these 30 guys surrendered. I had two big rolls of duct tape. And so I just rolled them up tight and threw them in the bike, the army mic boat, and then off they went to jungle prison. The one thing? Yeah, we had a little jungle prison set up, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that was nice.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I mean, it's comforting.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, good.
SPEAKER_01:But I think one of the things, you know, just to dive off into the Bible here, I have to admit I was kind of smug because I was given this guy who just moments before was trying to kill me. I was giving him water from my canteen and I was giving him some food to eat. And I thought, I'm a pretty good guy. I mean, this guy was trying to kill me. And I felt like God reminded me about Romans 5.8, where he's like, Listen, while you were at war with me, I sent my son to die for you. And it was just humbling. I was like, all right, yeah, check yourself. So you remember you were a Christian all this time. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. You didn't say, like, no Jesus, no Bible, as I gotta get in this shootout, I'll deal with you later, Lord. This is you're walking with the Lord, you think you're doing what the Lord wants you to do. Is that right?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And I realized, and we can get back to that in the training, but uh, I realized this was my mission field too. Yeah, and don't get me wrong, like I liked a job just like you liked yours. Sure, yeah. But I also realized this is a people group that I don't think an outsider can reach.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I stayed and I kept checking in with my wife. She's like, Yeah, I think we're good. So I stayed a lot longer than four years.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because that's what originally was the plan.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, just go do four years, yeah, figure life out and go from there.
SPEAKER_00:And you uh and you stayed 26 years and uh average amount of time you're away from home in a year.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, 280, 300 days a year.
SPEAKER_00:Really?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because you're still doing a lot of training on top of the deploying.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so you're overseas some, but then you're also training to go overseas and training overseas too.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Well, I mean, sometimes some of the bigger blocks of training are like 10 weeks.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, really?
SPEAKER_01:So you'll do land warfare training and you're away in the woods for 10 weeks.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and you also did an army green beret training too, right? I did, yeah, that was two years. Two years? Two years of the 26 you spent being a green beret.
SPEAKER_01:Not my choice either. Really? That was one of those special moments where the command officer says, Hey, come to my office. It's like, what's up, skipper? He's like, So I got a plan for you for the next two years. I'm like, okay. Yeah. He's like, I'm gonna send you a green beret training. I was like, what did I do wrong? Yeah, it's a hard training pipeline. Yeah. It's actually harder if you're a Navy SEAL going through it. Is that right? They weren't. Somehow you're highlighted. Yeah. They weren't accommodating you.
SPEAKER_00:They were accommodating you. Man. Now you had so listen, you're a Christian, you're in the boat, you got the 50 caliber. Um, did there did you have hesitancy? Did you think, I don't know if Jesus wants me to do this. Should I be just uh praying and you know preaching and not doing this kind of thing? We should leave this to the sinners.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, zero hesitation. Well, it the time for the gospel's over when you see a muzzle flash, right? Like that's not the time to negotiate. Doesn't mean I don't care about humanity, but I want to make sure the guy to my left and right's coming home to their family. Yeah. And I'm hoping they think the same about me. So war's different.
SPEAKER_00:War's different.
SPEAKER_01:So four of you, and all four of you survived, or no? Yeah, yeah. The worst thing we had that day was sunburn. Now we had already lost four teammates on Patilla the very first night. And what they call H hour. Yeah. And so four guys, and then uh the one guy his uh who was Carlos Melita, he was paralyzed for life. His wife paid our bills, my roommate and I. And so uh he has a phenomenal story. He's a Hall of Famer in the uh Iron Man from Hawaii now. No way, and just a great story. But uh yeah, so a lot of guys were killed and hurt that first night, and just phenomenal stories for each one. Uh, I can go on and on about those guys. Uh really cool.
SPEAKER_00:Second night.
SPEAKER_01:This is a couple days later. A couple days later. This is in Cologne, which is on the other side of the canals. Okay, okay, so yeah, and that's actually a little historical note about Cologne. Uh Jacques Cousteau's son, the diver, remember him? Yeah. His son was ate by hammerhead sharks over there. You know, so not at the same time.
SPEAKER_00:Were you in that were you in the water with sharks? Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's Christmas Day. We can talk about that.
SPEAKER_00:Were you concerned about were you concerned about getting eaten?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, you there is a concern there for sure. And there's not much you can do about it.
SPEAKER_00:Because I'd much rather have a bullet than a bite. Just so you're clear.
SPEAKER_01:So would I. It's agreement.
SPEAKER_00:You're in agreement on this.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Well, and I I mean, my since we're talking about sharks, uh, Christmas Day 89. Uh-huh. So we're kind of wrapping things up. We're going to hit uh Flamingo Island, which was one of Noriega's strongholds.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm a new guy, you know, so new guys, you know, we just kind of listen and do what we're told. But I was looking at satellite imagery, and put uh Flamingo Island is, you know, it has like this little beach, and in the water I could see like a line. I said, is that a shark net? They're like, hey, new guy, you're just scared. I'm like, well, it's not that I'm scared. I'm just I'm asking, is that a shark net? You know, because I'm a swimmer scout. Me and one other guy are gonna check out the beaches and bring all you other knuckle draggers in. Right. And so they're like, ah, you're just scared. I'm like, whatever. So that night, about a thousand yards out, you know, it's a nice quiet night. Uh the zodiacs are coming in. You always want to keep your engine pointed out seawards so you don't hear the engines when you're coming in. So Randy and I slip off, and he's my LPO. So that's kind of like the boss, like sergeant on a police force. He's the boss. So we slide off, we start breaststroking so we don't make splashes, start cruising in, and I get hit in the ribs really hard by something. That's unusual in the water when you're swimming at night, right? Yeah. And I bump into Randy. And this is at night. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And bad guys, bad guys still out there. You're not going to be. This isn't for exercise. No, no, no. You're not trying to get into breaststroke. This is the real deal. Okay. Real deal. So you're swimming in and your boss, you're both going, and you get bumped.
SPEAKER_01:I get bumped. I bump into him, and he grabs me by the throat. He's like, What are you doing? You're gonna give us away. I'm like, something hit me. He's like, You're just scared. I'm like, here we go with the scared stuff again. I'm like, so we swim a little bit more. I get heart hit harder this time. I bump into him and make a little splash. He's freaking out. And he says the most logical thing anyone could say in the ocean. He's like, Switch sides with me. I'm like, okay. So we switch sides and we keep swimming. Then something hits Randy, and now I'm a buoy. He's climbing on top of me and he's like, something hit me. I'm like, yeah, no kidding. Right as he said that and he slid off of me, you know, and let me breathe, dorsal fins start circling around us. Really? Now, at this point in my life, it's like a hundred of them, but at the time it was probably 12.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But 12 sharks.
SPEAKER_00:Twelve's enough.
SPEAKER_01:12's enough. 12 is enough. One is enough.
SPEAKER_00:One's enough.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I saw I was scared to swim in a swimming pool after seeing Jaws as a kid. Oh boy, yeah. You know, so I it was real enough for me. And I said, I'd rather take my chances with the guards on land. Me too. So we started swimming a lot faster. But I had that same 16203. Okay. And I kept moving around my body hoping they would bite that first as we're swimming.
SPEAKER_00:Those your guns were fine underwater?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no problem.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, we're not gonna shoot them underwater, but like you drain them when you get to land and all that stuff. Really? Yeah. Yeah, proper procedures. But yeah, so that was a memorable Christmas. And when we actually got, you know, wrapped up, we we leveled his home. And you know, even another fun story about that. A buddy of mine, Tim, he goes in there, and after we hit the house, he decides that Noriega's big giant parrot statue should go home with him. So he's got it in his backpack, this big giant parrot statue. And our officer in charge, who I actually has some morals, I guess, he's like, you can't just take that. He's like, why not? Put it back. But some of the other guys were clever, and they took Noriega's stationery and they wrote a thank you letter to President Bush and sent it to him.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And and I have a picture in my den where he's reading our letter and thanking us and everything for our service there. So that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00:That was pretty cool. Jeez, that's great. Memories. But yeah, yeah. Now, it's funny, in your world, uh, you don't tell a lot of stories. Like uh, like uh we've talked a ton about in ministry. I've tried to tell you, you gotta tell some stories. Like I my police stories are kind of boring to me, honestly, and I don't uh, you know, me and my buddies laugh or whatever, but we don't really but for you guys it was all uh also classified, what you were doing a lot of the time at least. Yeah. And and your theory or your way of thinking is you really wouldn't be telling these stories if it wasn't for ministry.
SPEAKER_01:Correct.
SPEAKER_00:Is that right? Yeah, like you'd have no other than your kid or whatever, right? You'd have no desire, and your mentality has been for all these years not to talk about all the things you've done.
SPEAKER_01:Correct.
SPEAKER_00:Is that fair?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it is fair. And I think one, I mean, I learn more from zero stories and hero stories. So I got plenty of zero stories wrapped screwed up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think we all identify with that more. Because if you if you do have those moments where you shine, yeah, people are like, well, I can't do that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But if I talk about all the stupidity that I have in my life, people are like, I'm better than that guy. Yeah. And I think that makes a better bridge.
SPEAKER_00:And amongst SEALs, you guys don't like it very much when SEALs start talking about private uh secret stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Correct. Well, especially if it if it actually is secret and like non-disclosure stuff, you're not supposed to talk about it. Right, right. And every once in a while, someone still runs their mouth and they shouldn't.
SPEAKER_00:Lots of books out, lots of guys.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's why I think like Panama is easy to talk about. Sure. Maybe some of the more current things I did, you know, before I retired, that's still sensitive, and so no reason to talk about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure, sure, sure. And uh, and so let's get back to this training thing. So you're a Christian now, you walk with the Lord, you're attending church, you're back at Bud's training, and you're training these guys, or you're telling what you did in Alaska. What would you do training wise in Alaska?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so Alaska is part of the pipeline now for SEALs. So all SEALs going through training spend 30 days up there. Yeah. And it's where they learn mountaineering, over-the-beach skills. Yeah, you know, and then they also learn survival skills. Uh-huh. And even just think about this. The most most of the guys are like from Miami, LA, they've never even built a fire in a fireplace. Yeah. Let alone in the outdoors. Yeah. So you're just trying to teach them basic outdoorsman skills so that they can live in these really difficult climates. Yeah. And for me, it was just winter, right? That's the winter specialty up there. No better place in Alaska in America to train for the winter. Yeah. And you have their attention when you know the wind's blowing 80 miles an hour and sleet's hitting the glass, they're paying attention when you talk about cold weather injuries. Because we're going to go to the laboratory experience next and actually go out for three days. So tell me about the three days.
SPEAKER_00:What do they do on that three-day?
SPEAKER_01:Well, like a typical three days would be they take a boat navigation and then they insert on a beach across the beach, and then they start a patrol into the mountains. And depending on the time of the year, they might need snowshoes. We don't have time to teach them how to ski. So snowshoeing is pretty easy. You put them on and you learn how to walk in the snow. And then it's just learning how to navigate. And then really, I would say it takes three years to make a winter warrior. And so the first year, you're just worried about you. Right? Like my feet are cold, my hands are cold. Yeah. All those things. Second year, you can start thinking about your buddy. Hey man, are you alright? Like, let me check on you. Third year, you can start thinking about tactics. Like, hey, this would be a horrible place to get ambushed, or hey, this looks like avalanche terrain.
SPEAKER_00:That first year, all you can do is stay alive.
SPEAKER_01:First year, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You're just wait, you're I I just want you to know, Todd. I think you're pretty miserable. What you did to those guys, tell tell them what you did at the end of the three days. Uh, with well, how was the way you celebrated their victory of getting done with the three days?
SPEAKER_01:We celebrated by reminding them they could live if they were immersed in cold water for a long time.
SPEAKER_00:How cold was it outside?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, below freezing. Below freezing. Yeah, the water's flowing though. Oh, it's flowing. That's better. Yeah, I mean it's it's safer that way, right? I see. But we would get in a river, we would get in the river with them. And uh so we're in there, and you basically got to be immersed, your hands are below the water, and moving water is colder than static water for whatever reason. It's taking the heat away from you. Yeah, and so we spend five minutes, you know, in the drink, get them good and cold, and then we teach them how they can rewarm themselves with the modern clothing, eating some hot chow, and that you can actually walk your clothes dry if it's not pouring down rain. So if it's just dry, cold outside, you can actually put on the puffy jacket and all this stuff, and you can actually walk your clothes dry. Where back in the day they used to teach you you gotta take all your clothes off and put dry clothes on. Well, that's not very operational in some situations, and you don't have that ability. So to know you can do it in training so that if it happens for real is actually.
SPEAKER_00:So you guys are trained uh and uh to jump in the water when it's really cold and well you don't do it on purpose on an op.
SPEAKER_01:But if you had to, yeah, that's what you're trained for. And you're you realize because of your training, the op's not over. Like, all right, you got cold and wet, you're not gonna die.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Where I think the books, you know, a lot of books just plagiarize old books and they just say, Oh, you're gonna die if you don't get dry clothes on. Well, no, you're not. Yeah. So you'll be fine. And again, it's a state of mind, you know, and I think you'll be fine.
SPEAKER_00:You'll be fine, everyone. Everyone who's listening to this, just jump in some cold water. You'll be fine. Is that is that your kind of a lifeguard thing?
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, well that's my other nickname is a memory maker.
SPEAKER_00:Memory maker, I'll see. Yeah. I bet there's lots of guys with memories of you. How many guys you think have your picture on a wall with a bullseye? More than I can count.
SPEAKER_01:No, I'm sure it's more thank you cards.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I imagine the Taliban are pretty popular with them too, huh? Pretty popular with them. Yes, they really like you too.
SPEAKER_01:Now, there is one pair that I know love me. Uh so when I taught survival, which was kind of my passion, I wrote the curriculum for the SEAL teams. Um, I would emphasize one thing. Like, hey, we're going out, this is gonna be hard. You guys are not gonna die, you're you're gonna be fine. But there's one thing where the the whole thing's gonna go south. If I catch you without your weapon, then I'm gonna hammer you and you're gonna wish that you were dead. And I mean, other than that, we're gonna have fun, you can ask questions, and we're gonna go get some. So the first thing they do, I found that it's actually very successful, is to ensure guys build good shelters and fires, is I have them find my favorite rock in the ocean before they start. So we line up on the beach because what I found is like if they're not cold and wet, a lot of guys will just lay on the ground and just suck it up for a couple days and they won't put out and make a good shelter and fire. So I would line them up on the beach. I'm like, all right, it's time to find my favorite rock. And you're not gonna find it here, it's out there. So they're like begrudging me, and they walk out in the water, and I'm like, oh, it's it's not on the surface. And so they all go under the water, they hold up rocks, and a couple times I'm like, that's it, come on in. All right, you guys are free to do whatever you want. You got three hours to build a shelter, I'll walk around and check on you. And so And now they're all soaking wet. Yeah, you know, and I feel like that's really good motivation to build a fire in a good shelter, and so and they consistently do it every time. So problem solved because they weren't doing it. I was like, I think I can fix this. And so it's optional.
SPEAKER_00:It's optional. Oh, I see. They don't have to build a shelter and fire, yes, yes, but they do, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the skipper came up to evaluate the training. I think he probably thought that was a little robust, you know, but he let me get away with it. Yeah, we walk around though, there's this massive shelter. I mean, it looks like the little hobbits from you know Lord of the Rings. And I was like, this is a good looking shelter. And I lean over and the skipper's with me, and so we're looking in there, there's two M4s laying in the shelter, and nobody's in there. And he's like, What are you gonna do? I was like, I got an idea. So we just sit and wait, and here they come, the little hobbits themselves with their big ponchos filled with moss to keep them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, these aren't AV SEALs, though.
SPEAKER_01:Well, they're going through training, they're not seals yet.
SPEAKER_00:They're not seals yet, okay.
SPEAKER_01:No, they're still students.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So they're coming along, they're pretty full of themselves. And then they see me and they're like, hey, and then their countenance drops. They're like, uh oh no. Like, oh yeah. Grab your weapons and come with me. And so we take a walk, and it's on an island, so you don't have to walk far to find the ocean. And I was like, I misplaced my favorite rock. It's time for you to go find it. Like, heads down, so they wade out in the water. I'm like, they're standing like waist deep for a little bit. I'm like, it's not there, it's down lower. And so they go out there and I let them bob three or four times. And there's this concrete slab on the beach from World War II where the army built shelters. And I had them come stand on it. I said, This is your new shelter for the night. You may not leave the shelter until I find you in the morning. Like, so you will stand on this concrete pad, soaking wet. Soaking wet. Yeah, no gear.
SPEAKER_00:On a concrete pad.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No gear.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, 20 degrees, windy. I was like, I'll see you in the morning. And so we were frostbiters. What about it? You know, it's like, so we I go up the hill, and the skipper's like, I said, I'll make sure they're okay. Do you want to go to this guy for counseling?
SPEAKER_00:Do you want him to do your wedding? I've changed. Yes. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:But so anyway, you know, I had my night vision. I watched them. They're slapping each other, they're doing jumping jacks, push-ups all night long just to stay alive. And you stayed, you watched them. Oh, yeah, I watched them all night.
SPEAKER_00:You want to make sure we didn't break the rules. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I actually was this is the compassion department. Oh, yeah. I act pretended to be hard, but I actually I cared about them.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so those guys might actually have a special picture of me. You think? Most people don't.
SPEAKER_00:Most people don't. So you become a pastor. How do you mix the two? You know, uh, combat soldier, training instructor, um, you know, all that stuff. And then uh the Bible and your preaching. Uh, I mean, how do you balance the two? How do you think about the two? I mean, it must be the question you get asked the most. People even ask a policeman, how are you a policeman and a pastor? A matter of fact, one time I was overseas and they were the cops that we were trained, we told them we're a pastor, and they couldn't believe they wanted to argue with me that you can't be a Christian and a policeman, and they were policemen. So it's even from the inside, it seemed very weird. So, well, yeah, that's a good question. How did the other guys uh respond to your Christianity as a seal? Other SEALs? Yeah, other seals.
SPEAKER_01:Well, one conversation comes to mind in Lisbon, Portugal. We were working with their special forces and we were taking a ferry ride. I can't remember if we're going to the train or away from it, but I just joked with the whole platoon. I was like, you know, I'm probably the most normal guy here. And they all just started laughing their heads off. And they're like, you're actually the most insane out of all of us. Because you were a pastor and your specialty is medicine to heal people, but you're okay with killing people. Like you were more messed up than any of us. And so that was a reality check on how people perceive me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But for me, military and ministry, they're actually very similar. Yeah. Right. And so it's all about being mission-minded. You know, in the military, you're thinking about physical threats, you're thinking about tactical situations, strategic situations. And really, that's what ministry is, right? It's just a different battlefield, and the stakes are higher because they're eternal. Not just physical death, but spiritual death. And so for me, that's probably the biggest uh thing that I share with people is, you know, and even looking at the Bible. I mean, David is an example, right? Yeah. My goodness, you know, there's plenty of people, and even God himself describes himself as a warrior in the Bible. And so I think to separate that, that's probably one of the issues today, you know, is men they're being told to be neutered and to be, you know, just watered down and being apologetic for being a man, is like, I don't see that in scripture. Yeah. And I mean, only one man actually ever lived up to that, and that was Jesus. Now, I do think one of the things that's contrary to what we are told in the West at least, is you know, I remember a matter of fact, I think it's when I first started with the church, uh, I did a men's conference there at the Smith Center.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Holds about 1,200 people. All these men, so I as an icebreaker, I said, Hey, tell me who the ideal man is. Yeah. And all these guys are throwing out names like John Wayne, Lee Marvin, or whomever. Sure. Not one man at a Bible conference said Jesus. And I was betting on that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Now in Matthew 11, Jesus describes his heart. It's the only place in scripture says he's gentle and humble. Yeah. And I think the mistake men make today is they think gentleness is weakness. But I believe it's strength under control. You and I have grandkids. We love those grandkids. We can hold their hand in such a way where we can cross a street and they can't pull their hand away so they don't get hit by a car, but yet not hurt them. That's gentleness. And then humility, of course, is that slippery virtue when you think of obtained it, you've lost it, right? So that's something that others have to esteem and see in you. So to me, it wasn't that big of a leap when you actually called me up and said, Hey, I think uh why don't you jump into youth ministry? And you know the story. Yeah, very few people do. At home, I had a circle around teach the Bible and work with teenagers, and I put it before the Lord. Didn't apply to a single church. Yeah. God was like, I call your bluff.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, that's right. He was so we were friends before he retired. His kids were in a youth group with me, and uh, he has great kids. And um by the way, uh, what's uh uh Brock doing now?
SPEAKER_01:So he's pararescue.
SPEAKER_00:So one of your kids is doing the same thing, special forces. Yeah. And uh he's a little bigger than he was in high school.
SPEAKER_01:He's a little bigger, he's a lot stronger.
SPEAKER_00:You think I could beat him arm wrestling? Probably not.
SPEAKER_01:You don't think you and I could together. He's a strong boy.
SPEAKER_00:So uh so I get the kids, he's youth uh youth pastor. I've met him a few times, and and I was rolling my eyes when I first said to the kids, uh, because you know, everybody in the DC area, you don't live in the DC area, you can't appreciate this, but everybody's a secret mission, everybody's CIA, everybody and every kid you ask, oh, what's your dad doing? Ah, it's classified. Ugh, geez, come on. Uh he's probably a janitor at the CIA. So, but but they asked this, and you're in the military, so what did you do in the military? We had a few conversations like that, and then they said he's a seal. I was like, hmm, interesting. So anyway, we got to meet and and and it was great. And and then you helped me, you came and spoke several times while you're still SEAL to the kids. I think we did stuff on Veterans Day a few times and stuff like that. It was really great. But when you got ready to retire, you were planning to go get a contract job, and you had a pretty good salary that you were looking at.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was actually Mattel, uh-huh. Um it was managing like Nuke Kim Bio stuff for America. Oh. And so to further the cause. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it was pretty lucrative.
SPEAKER_01:It was lucrative, and uh, I just remember the day before is when you called me up.
SPEAKER_00:Really?
SPEAKER_01:The day before the day before I went to go shake hands with that contract.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So and just so you know, that's God's, because I certainly didn't. Uh I I was leaving youth ministry, and I I told I had talked, there was a lot of conversation before I ever called you, just so you know, uh, between in the church, you know, how wonderful you are. And and you just did a terrific job and then transitioned to being a full pastor of one of the campuses. Um, and I think your pastoral ministry, you know, you can't say this, but I think it's been extraordinary. Uh you've got to, it's weird because uh they would say, with your background, how could you be terribly pastoral? And to us, pastoral just means uh shepherding or caring about uh a child or a lady or a or a man or whatever, and and uh and then helping them spiritually become the people you wanna, you wanna uh God wants them to be. And and you've actually enjoyed that part of the work. Love it. That's the part you like the most about pastoring.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah. And I think for me, I've learned, you know, and I learned this through my grandfather, who's a church planner, who poured into me when I was a young man. But I know as much as I love the women and children of the church, the best way to care for them is to pour into the men. And again, my heart goes towards the men and shoring them up to make sure they know who they are in Christ. Yeah. Because I think there's this idea going around where you know, men say, you know, like I can do it, you know, I can I got this. And uh that's that's foolish, right? None of us got it. Only one man ever pulled that off, and his name is Jesus, right? And so to me, it's it's helping them know like we need to interlock arms. I mean, that's why you and I met at that diner, right? It's like we don't have this on our own. Like we both are screwed up and we need help. And it's good to lock arms and encourage each other. And it's kind of comforting to find you know, I tell this to the church all the time look to your left and look to your right and realize they're Just as screwed up as you are. Like let's lower the bar. And I see people drop their shoulders, like, okay, this I belong here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's quite different. Yeah, that goes back to the zero stories. And I said the most screwed up person of all is right here in the podium. Yeah. So let's learn about Jesus together.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I well, I'll say this. Let me summarize uh and and say this. Um so I I I texted uh you recently. I I get kind of frustrated uh about everybody they call a hero nowadays. Everybody's a hero. Hero for this, hero for that. Everybody is uh you know deserves applause. Shoot, if you watch the talk shows, everybody who comes on a talk show, I guess, has you know got the Nobel Peace Prize or something, the way they talk about them. Even Christians do it with all this pastor. Let me tell you all this thing. Let me just say, this is the truth. No exaggeration. Todd's an American hero. You risked your life for 26 years, and then it's been almost more dangerous since then serving the Lord faithfully at church. And to me, that's the ideal American. I mean, what you've done for our country and for uh and for the lives and souls of our kids, uh, one of the funny things you started as a whole ministry, you did to little children. I mean, it's a long way from making guys stand on a concrete pad uh somewhere or stand on a battlefield in some desert somewhere, right? Yeah, would you have ever done uh todd talks there? You couldn't have really thought about doing that. They weren't they weren't thinking about recording you then. No. No, different kind of job. Yep. And no trouble for you mixing the two. No, no problem. You think you could, are you saying that guys, what God's called them to do, they can be a Christian and do it as long as it's legal and of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, and I think there's just a few professions out there where you probably couldn't honor the Lord, right? Right. I mean, sure. I think God is just as pleased with our janitor who keeps our church clean as the man who's filling the pulpit, right? And all the other roles. Matter of fact, one of the most uh rewarding roles I ever had in the church out in San Diego was setting up chairs and tables with old timers. Like it was it was the best. And I actually complained about that church for about two months. I was like, this church isn't very friendly. And I felt the Holy Spirit challenging me. He's like, the reason it's not friendly is because you're not doing anything. And so you're just warming a pew on Sunday. So I was like, all right, let me get off my backside and start serving. And you know what happened in that church? It became friendly.
SPEAKER_00:You know why they might have not been friendly? Because they noticed you were the Prince of Darkness wandering around their church. Is that possible? Not possible. You don't think so?
SPEAKER_01:I think that's out of context.
SPEAKER_00:You didn't wear a Darth Vader helmet or anything?
SPEAKER_01:No, not a fan of Darth.
SPEAKER_00:Not a fan, not a big fan. All right, well, listen, so everybody's gonna want to know this. What's the scaredest you ever been? Where were you? What happened? If you can't tell us exactly where you were, just give us a what's the scaredest you ever been?
SPEAKER_01:There are so many. So I'll just tell you one of the first times uh that I was uh really scared was there's so many, yeah. I could sp I could spend hours talking about this. So my first rescue mission back in the day when we had beepers, right? Pagers. Yeah. And it went off, and I was like, yeah, and and I was like, we're gonna go get some. And I and I get the briefing from the So you were happy when you got an assignment.
SPEAKER_00:You weren't dreading it, weeping when you got ready to go into combat, you were had the shakes, all that. No. No, I was pumped.
SPEAKER_01:You were get recalled, we're all gathering in the briefing room, and there's this guy in like a SeaWorld shirt standing next to the command officer. I'm like, well, that's kind of weird, I don't know what he's here for. And I said, Men, we have an objective is to rescue Rascal the Dolphin. And I was like, a dolphin? Like, my first job is to rescue a dolphin in the ocean? Why do they need rescuing? And so anyway, it was wintertime, and poor Rascal the Dolphin was apparently starving in one of the bays. And so SeaWorld needed help gathering it. And so they briefed us. They were gonna put in a giant net, you know, and put it around the dolphin. We needed to be in the water, which was three knots moving in the current, so that's faster than any of us can swim. So challenging. Super cold water, 30 degrees, almost slushy-like.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And our job was to get around the net and keep the dolphin from ramming the net and panicking. Brilliant plan, right? And so as we get around the net starts to- Your tax dollars at work. Baby. Yeah, it was beautiful. And so we get out there and Rascal panics, and he chooses me as his target. He rams me with the net, wraps my whole body up, and then drags me to the bottom of the ocean. And he drags me deep enough that my ears rupture because my hands are pinned, so I can't clear. Oh my god. My knife's on my leg, which I can't reach, and so I'm down on the bottom. It happens so fast, I barely got a breath. Cold water is challenging to hold your breath anyway. I was like, I'm gonna die because a dolphin wrapped me up in a net. I'm like, I just got started. And so when I pop, I actually come up to the surface and I'm looking around. There's a civilian rescue diver in a dry suit watching. And I make eye contact with him, and before I can say help, Rascal drags me back to the bottom of the ocean. Now, this is the part where my friends say, Well, why didn't you just swim away from the dolphin in the net? I'm like, so let me tie you to the back of my truck and stop the truck from going away. That's the same thing. Like a dolphin's really strong. And uh, you're not gonna stop a dolphin from swimming with you. And so that time I was like, wow, I don't even have a breath. I'm starting to get lightheaded, yeah. Like the tunnel of darkness is coming in.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And then he eases up and I pop and I yell for my buddy Scott. I see I make eye contact with him because the civilian diver is worthless, right? And so, because he doesn't want to get cold, I guess. I did have some choice thoughts about him, you know, that weren't biblical at the time. But anyway, Scott starts making his way over to me. He sees I'm in distress, and I get dragged back down one more time. This time I don't know how deep, I didn't bounce off the bottom or anything like that. But I was deep enough, and I was like, so this is it. Like, I'm gonna die from Rascal the Dolphin. I pop back up, thankfully, and Scott's cut me out and everything, and then I black out, like I don't remember anything, but I wake up and I'm in the boat with the standby diver rearranging his face, and so I'm hitting it.
SPEAKER_00:You're punching it.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, oh yeah. I'm letting him know my feelings, and so I went in a blood rage. I'm pounding on him. I don't have any awareness of a helicopter filming me from above from CNN. No, and so I'm working him over. I got up, you know, hoodie on and all these other things, and then you know, fast forward, everybody's forgiven and all goes well. And I get a phone call from family, and they're like, Did you see what happened in Virginia Beach? I was like, No, what happened? They're like, a diver went nuts and was beating up another diver in a boat. I was like, Well, there's more to the story. And the the hurtful part about all that was I got to walk around for the next two years seeing people wear save rascal adolphin t-shirts in town. Oh, yeah, it was a big deal. And uh, but here's the point that I think is important if we want to button all this up. I had a lot of training. I was very confident in the water, yeah, and I could not save myself. It took somebody else to save me. And you and I know that's a perfect picture of the gospel. Yeah. Like there's people out there today that think they can save themselves by doing good deeds, giving money to the church, attending church. The Bible says that's not salvation, right? The Bible says that those who believe in Jesus Christ and confess with their mouth and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead, they will be saved. And I think it's important to talk about belief. Belief is this you know, that we've all sinned, right? I mean, we've all done things wrong, and that we ourselves, there's nothing we can do to remove those good, those sins. Nothing. And ultimately we need to believe about the Savior, Jesus Christ. Like he came and lived that perfect life, died in a place, and God raised him from the dead. And every man and woman, no matter what you've done, no matter where you've gone, if you place your faith and trust in Jesus Christ, the Bible says you're saved. And that's what happened to me today. I had someone save me because I couldn't save myself, and that's what Jesus did for me a long time ago as a teenager. He saved me for my sins.
SPEAKER_00:And that this word saved means something uh in all your context of life, you know, uh when you were saved as a seal or you saved others. The word saved wasn't trite or silly or any of those things, right? It's a big deal getting saved.
SPEAKER_01:There's a cost to it too. People risk their lives to save you. Jesus did more of that, right? He gave his life. You know, because well, you know, again, in John 15, it talks about like, you know, yeah, I might give my life for you because you're my buddy. Yeah. But how many of us would give our life for a stranger or someone who actually hates us?
SPEAKER_00:And in essence, it'd be for the guys you were fighting with, you'd give your life. That's exactly. We were enemies with God. It's interesting. Somebody said to me one time a friend got killed in the line of duty, and they said uh he didn't um he didn't give his life. He didn't sacrifice his life, his life was taken from him. So there's a difference. Jesus did sacrifice life. I thought that was actually pretty astute. It's true. Willingly, Jesus went in saying, I'll give it for you and for adopts like us. That's the amazing thing. Absolutely. Just remarkable.
