Cops, Criminals, and Christ
"Cops, Criminals & Christ" is a podcast delving into the intertwining worlds of law enforcement, crime, and faith. With Dale Sutherland, a former narcotics Sergeant turned pastor, it features gripping narratives and candid interviews exploring behind-the-scenes work of life undercover, as well as the transformative power of faith in the lives of both cops and criminals. Tune in for compelling insights and real-life stories that challenge, inspire, and reveal God’s grace available through it all, at the hands of its host and Dale’s daughter, Kristen Crew.
Cops, Criminals, and Christ
From Border Roots to Prison Ministry
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From border politics to prison ministry: Dale Sutherland (The Undercover Pastor) interviews Saul Ramirez, who grew up on the U.S.–Mexico border in Laredo, Texas.
Power, pressure, and integrity: Saul shares his rise from city council to mayor at 32, navigating corruption, faith awakening, and leadership under scrutiny.
A faith redefined: A Gideon Bible and a missionary’s prayer shifted his understanding of success—from good works to grace-filled calling.
National influence, lasting impact: Saul reflects on serving at HUD, advancing affordable housing and community planning beyond political cycles.
When doors close, purpose opens: After politics, Saul rebuilt in the private sector—then stepped into jail ministry, leading Spanish worship and Bible study for incarcerated men.
Hope behind locked doors: A raw conversation about surrender, repentance, forgiveness, and following Jesus when life doesn’t go as planned.
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Welcome to the Cops, Criminals, and Christ podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Well, welcome back. Uh, we're here sitting with my good friend Saul Ramirez, and we just want to hear a little bit about how Saul went from growing up uh in Texas uh to being on the involved in national politics, and uh now he ends up going in and out of a jail uh all the time. So we gotta hear about this. Um Saul. So tell us first of all, where'd you grow up?
SPEAKER_01:I grew up in Laredo, Texas, on the border there with Mexico. Uh it's uh on I-35. So the southernmost point in the US on 35 is Laredo, Texas.
SPEAKER_02:And did you uh yeah, you have dad, mom, uh mom and dad, uh blue-collar family.
SPEAKER_01:My dad was a mechanic, um, worked for back then Uniroyal, uh was a testing ground for tires and all that stuff. Uh but we were most mostly uh rancher merchant family uh uh on on both sides, and so did a lot of that and uh and that's sort of what we did. I I uh was born in LA but uh uh four generations go back to that place and since then, but during that time we had a severe drought and we couldn't do our ranching and we lost our cattle as a result, and so the family wasn't making it, and a cluster of us were born up there. My dad went and ran uh an assembly line for Douglas Aircraft in LA.
SPEAKER_02:And then you moved back to Laredo?
SPEAKER_01:Moved back to Laredo when I was about six. Oh, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02:And uh, and so were you around uh you know, help us that are not from Texas, you you say a cattle ranch or uh what do you mean? You you were living at a ranch all the time?
SPEAKER_01:No, we were living in town, uh Laredo, but the ranch was located uh about forty-five minutes from from Laredo and it came through our our grandfather, this ranch, and uh my my uncle and my dad worked.
SPEAKER_02:And so your dad would work his regular job and also go out there. Okay, okay, correct.
SPEAKER_01:So you grew up around it, so yes, and and on my on uh on and that's from my mom's side. On my on my uh dad's side, his dad was a merchant. He he ran a big uh a uh a little movie house, uh tortilla factory, um uh uh a jewelry store, so quite the merchant.
SPEAKER_02:Laredo, Texas. What is the breakup of how much uh uh uh flour tortilla and corn tortilla? That's the question.
SPEAKER_01:Boy, that is a big debate down there. You know, you you you you you think that the flour is uh the best, but it's the worst. And uh the corn is is is better for you. Oh better for you, but the but the But the flower is just the best.
SPEAKER_02:You agree, right? I agree. But if you go to so I learned if I go to Mexico City, though, uh they get real mad if you want the flower to the colour tortilla, it has to be corn. It has to be corn.
SPEAKER_01:And it seems like the further south you go, it gets that way. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But we're right, right?
SPEAKER_01:Flower is the best.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, good.
SPEAKER_01:In fact, I'm gonna probably go have a couple of tacos after we're done. With flower tortillas. With flower tortillas. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:All right. So you grew up in in Laredo, Texas, a middle class family. Uh how'd you get into politics, or what did you do with politics?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, Laredo uh has always been very disadvantaged uh and and was much more than it's come a long way. I I helped play a part in in moving down the path to prosperity for the community, but it's been a community effort. Uh but at that time it was uh it was it was struggling. It was a very poor community, one of the the poorest cities in the country for decades. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Unpaved streets. Uh well, Dale, you grew up so I lived there. You did you spend some time in Laredo?
SPEAKER_02:I lived there for a couple of years, and I remember Unpaved Streets. It was in the we're really old, so I'm really old at least. And I was in it was in the 70s. Yeah, it was in the 70s. And uh yeah, it was it was very and there were parts of town that looked like Mexico. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's the border, like like yeah, I like I like to describe our uh Laredo, it's it's and Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, which is right across the the border in the river. It's one city divided by two countries and a river. And a river. But it's one city.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I remember that street signs, everything were in Spanish, everything it was very spanning. Very that's right.
SPEAKER_01:And you feel that influence because Laredo was founded by the Spaniards, but it went through some change with through history, and it finally ended up being, you know, part of Texas and its own community. All right.
SPEAKER_02:And uh you Texas people are pretty passionate about this. Oh, absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. So, so okay, so so how'd you get uh, you know, you get out of high school, everything you get involved in politics, what what happened?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, actually I got involved in politics in high school. Um uh I I grew up Catholic, uh-huh, um, had come to uh know Jesus early uh because of that, um, but grew up more with a doctrine of good works uh as defining your life, uh confession and penance for for your sins, and and moving on. Um and that's how I got to know Jesus when I was young. Uh spent a lot of time um uh back then um looking at all that was there. I had an uncle who was very politically uh active and sort of uh uh got me interested in in looking at things and and decided that I might be able to make a difference and uh and went and I ran for city council first at a very young age. Um I was 23 at the time. And um uh got elected. Uh we had just changed our charter to get rid of a lot of corruption. Uh one of our former mayors had spent a little time in the Huskow for misappropriation and you know that kind of stuff. Um and and so the city was in a uh a big transition.
SPEAKER_02:And and and so you got on the city council. I did. I was I did.
SPEAKER_01:Now were you married? I I I just gotten married. Okay. Um, you know, growing up uh in Laredo, uh to to just take a couple of steps back, um, I I started working really young, um, coming from a blue-collar family. Yeah. Um, my mom was an office worker, and like I said, my dad was a mechanic, a general mechanic, not just automobile.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And um, and and and he um and so started working when I was in the fourth grade. I used to sweep up on weekends and make a little cash on the side. So it and um didn't realize then until many years later that it fueled a lot of uh uh a lot of the uh the viva loca, as Ricky Martin likes to say, yeah, uh till I was about uh 19 or 20. Uh and uh uh but you know, all along that path, I you know, by the grace of God, you know, and and him leading me closer to him, yeah, that that that it all worked out okay because it could have gone uh in a very different wrong, yeah. Horribly wrong. And and same thing when I when I got elected into public office. I mean, yeah, I wasn't even in office 60 days and somebody offered me a bribe. Is that right uh to to do something for them? And I said, I don't need the bribe. Yeah, if it if it can be done, it'll be done. If it can't, it won't that's that's it.
SPEAKER_02:You had made a decision early.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and all of that came from my Catholic upbringing, you know, the Ten Commandments, the the you know, knowing what Jesus so then so then city council, and then you get elected mayor of Loreto, Texas.
SPEAKER_02:At how old?
SPEAKER_01:Um at uh 32. The youngest. And um interesting time. Yeah. Uh and that's sort of where uh a big inflection point uh took place in my life, yeah, uh to a great extent. But I I you know, growing up uh as I did, um understood a lot of the doctrine, but didn't do a lot of scripture reading, didn't spend a lot of time in the word, yeah. Um a lot more came on my shoulders to carry a community as a mayor uh at a very young age. And as as I got elected, uh I um the Gideons came came through town and they gave me this beautiful um um Bible that that that uh that I kept there in my office as mayor that I'd I I'd turned to regularly and uh and and look for guidance because I mean the stuff I saw and the stuff that needed to get done and how was it all gonna happen and all that stuff. Um and and uh maybe about a year later, yeah, uh a missionary pastor, not always uh since I was at a seminary, it was a missionary seminary.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right, right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um I always had a heart for mission and uh and missions. And and uh a missionary was coming through town to this day. I I try to remember his last name. I got Pastor Bob uh came into my office, gave me another Bible, uh uh and uh and prayed over me. Wow and uh and and talked about you know truly receiving Jesus in my life as my Lord and Savior and everything that that meant and growing in that. And uh boy did that uh that sort of helped me uh how long were you a mayor at that point when you uh probably almost uh four years. Okay, okay. And how many years were you the mayor? Eight. Almost okay.
SPEAKER_02:Almost yeah. A lot of temptation being mayor of uh a lot of temptation. And and and on the Nueva Laredo side.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and on the Nueva Laredo side. Oh well, the Nuevo Laredo side was just uh uh I I I was elevated to a whole other status amongst that community. Uh-huh. Both the the the the the working folk and the underground.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, yeah. The bad guys and the good guys. Yes. On both sides. Both sides.
SPEAKER_01:I knew them all.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. You knew them all. I mean, is it pretty much it sounds like it was a smaller town, 250,000 or 200,000 in Laredo side, right? But then a bunch of people bigger on Nuebler.
SPEAKER_01:350 to a million.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And so, and when you could go over there, you would be treated like a king. Pretty much. Yeah. You you you had authority, you had abilities, all that, and so lots of temptation.
SPEAKER_01:And yet you end up giving your life to Christ right in the middle of it, sounds like halfway through the well, it was just, you know, good works wasn't getting it done for me. Uh, I mean, I'd been able to do, I mean, if you go back and you just look at my track record uh as a councilman and as a mayor, we got so much done by the grace of God, yeah, that that were good works in my eyes. Um, you know, the fact was that it was him that was in control all that time. And uh, and as I I made my transition up here to DC to become uh first the assistant secretary for community planning and development that at the Department of Housing and Urban Development.
SPEAKER_02:Now, how does the mayor Loreto though go uh go up to DC as a political appointee?
SPEAKER_01:Well uh you know you get vetted. Um I I I happened to to just um again, God puts people in front of you, good or bad. Yeah, sure. Um and and that's what he did. And and I got to meet folks like uh Gary Morrow, who was instrumental, who was uh the land commissioner down there at the time. Uh the may the governor, Governor Ann Richards was was very supportive, and and so was George Bush after he beat her and um and and um and Bill Clinton when he was governor in Arkansas. So I I got to know the the president before he was before he was president. Oh, I see. And so I got asked to join his administration on his uh during his uh second term. Okay, and um and uh and and had been asked in uh first term too, but I had just gotten re-elected as mayor, and I was just uh there was so much that had to get done and and and and get finished, I felt in my heart that I just couldn't. Yeah, right. The second term, I was almost uh less than a year done, and we're term limited anyway for life. Oh I can't go back to Laredo for mayor or city council either. It's ridiculous. But it's okay. I got to retire a young elder statesman uh and came up here. I got vetted, uh went through a uh continual uh screening process, got down to the last three. I thought it would be such just an honor to get to that. And next thing I know, I got the call. Uh and uh uh and and and it it it moved me up here. And you were and then you were Assistant Secretary for Community Planning and Development. Okay. Um uh before that, you know, mayor and and councilman weren't my full-time job, those were my side gigs. I was actually an insurance and risk manager. Uh huh. I had an insurance firm, we did a lot of international trade and commerce. Um I got up here because of all of the good works that I was able to accomplish and lead uh under the community planning and development banner at Hyde. Yeah. Uh and then uh a few months after that, the the president asked me to become the deputy secretary for the department or the COO. Uh and uh and I held both positions for a bit and then took over full-time uh as this uh COO or the Deputy Secretary for the last four years of the of the Clinton administration. And then for a while were you acting uh I did, I got to I got to I got to act uh uh uh and take care of uh transition for for for the department. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02:And uh then you leave that, and what's the Lord doing your life at this time?
SPEAKER_01:Well you know, um bringing me closer to him, uh number one, uh two um my family. Uh you know, uh I'd been really careless uh to a great extent. Um still thinking I was active, engaged, and everything that you know, doing all the right things, yeah as a husband and a father. Um and um and and as as we moved up here and we were basically uh just us, yeah, we became even closer as a family. And it it it it really uh transformed us um uh uh along the way. Um finished my my four years there as a political appointee. Yeah, and um, and then um was was um uh already uh selected to have become the secretary behind the scenes when um when when Al Gore got elected but lost with a Supreme Court uh count. Because they halted it. It did completely changed my life from now from Wow, I did not know that day to night, night to day again. You know, it was So what were you doing?
SPEAKER_02:Then then you find out you're basically unemployed. Unemployed.
SPEAKER_01:So it was do we go back or do we stay here? And we said we're gonna trust the Lord, we're gonna stay here. Huh. And did. And I went into back to the private sector, did uh development, uh multifamily uh affordable housing and uh economic development work uh for a firm out in New York that has some offices here in DC. And uh, and then shortly thereafter, uh you know, a headhunter called me up and said, Hey, we've got this job. Do you want to go be the CEO for the largest housing and redevelopment organization in the US for professionals in that industry? I said, sure. Yeah, and did that for about 15 years. 15 years, is that right? Wow, and uh yeah, and and then shortly after that, transitioned uh myself into the the communications space. There was a firm that wanted to um bring more uh Wi-Fi access to low and moderate income neighborhoods that were severely disadvantaged because there was no fiber, yeah, they couldn't get cable, couldn't afford it, that kind of stuff. And and helped them over a three-year period um uh set up a really cool uh uh business that helps folks um yeah subsidize their their their Wi-Fi and their and their wireless.
SPEAKER_02:Now your whole life you avoided jail. You were around a lot of I skirted jail. Yeah, you you had a lot of people in your life that were in that guys you knew.
SPEAKER_01:That went to jail, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so you skirted your whole time, and then and then you get to this great career and great family, and and now you go to jail. Well, what happens? Why did you go to jail?
SPEAKER_01:Well, fast forward, yeah, you know, been doing my my my own thing uh uh since then. Uh uh, that I always had a heart for for ministry, and um always felt that I I I w should do it full time. Yeah, I was praying for it, uh even got uh uh selected to be one of the finalists for an international NGO uh to go spread the gospel. Uh didn't didn't get the position. Uh-huh. Uh but it helped me realize that all right, so you know, Lord, you've always blessed me with the ability to make other people money. Yeah. Uh and you've given me a good life. Uh uh financially strained for a long time, uh, in spite until I I uh even so learned how to surrender my finances, yeah, and that completely changed everything and gave me so much more freedom to share uh uh uh time and talent because of of the treasure. And and so so my time and talent now is going on on weekends and spending time with about uh 40 uh inmates uh on Sundays three times a month uh here at Fairfax County uh adult detention.
SPEAKER_00:So how long you've been doing that? Uh since 2001. 2001. Uh-huh. Wow. No, 2021. 2021. I'm talking about. Yeah, I'm sorry. 2021. I threw myself for a bit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. I was still talking about the days when I was struggling. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So 2021, you start into the the jail, and uh you speak in Spanish, you share with the Spanish uh guys uh that are that are locked up. Uh-huh. And uh have you seen anything good happen since you've been doing it?
SPEAKER_01:I've seen well, for first off, it's a blessing for me. Yeah, I it it is uh and it's not so much their circumstances, it's the sharing of the gospel that has also helped transform, continue to transform my life. Yeah. And to to to uh depend and rely and completely uh stand on God's word and and what it means in our lives. Uh but I have seen um men uh come to Christ uh uh through the process of our Bible studies, yeah. Uh I I've helped them understand how to read the Bible uh and and and to how to put it into context and to how to be able to uh adopt all that to what it's really all about, which is a a beautiful story of salvation.
SPEAKER_02:And do you think when you talk to the guys that that come to you to to the religious service or whatever, do you find that they often have conf uh confused views on? Theology and they're a little bit confused on how to get a relationship with God.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, some of the things are are are you know how how do they see God? You know, and how do they see themselves uh relating to God and and and what does God mean to them in their life? All those things uh are are very different from from these fellows' perspectives. And and for them, uh you know, my my ability to get up in front of them and help them better understand how to to uh relate to the gospel and make it their life, yeah, because that's what it is, it's the living word.
SPEAKER_00:Amen.
SPEAKER_01:And uh and and if you live by that word and you and you have full confidence in that word, regardless of your circumstance, you know, God's gonna take you forward in life. And uh, and so so yeah, you know, what one example of of you know uh confusing uh theology to him is the is the whole thing about the Trinity and and and how does that that work, you know, and yeah, and how can that be? I'm confused too. Tell me about that. I don't think anyone has the answer to that. But I can walk you through how God quite uh God's words quite clear, yeah, uh how it works, uh starting in Genesis, the first chapter.
SPEAKER_02:Really? So you learned how to explain it well, right so guys can understand right and challenge.
SPEAKER_01:And and also which is critical to our and we focus in on on uh on the apostles, yes, because you know, apostolic works and and what we've been called to to to to to not just help community, but most importantly to share the the great commission that we've been given, which is so so being pastored about the great commission, it seems like the Lord's doing great things inside you and through you.
SPEAKER_02:Uh it's cool the way the Bible works. It explains us too that he works in us, he works on us, and he works through us uh all at the same time. And then probably if you look at your life going backwards to now, you can see all three of those things um happening, even when you were at your dark moments, or yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I you know, it's not like dark moments go away unless I've got dark moments all the time. That's right, true. You know, in this world, but I but I know that I've but but you know that we've been given light that has already come, yeah, and and and we shine that light. Yes, and and if we shine that light, we live by that light.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. If you uh okay, so here's a question. Uh what would you tell uh you know, back could you have imagined back when you were mayor or city council or whenever working, doing the work you're doing now in the jail? No. That wasn't your destiny, that wasn't your plan. Your plan, your destiny, no, it's nowhere near that.
SPEAKER_01:No, if I had my brothers, I'd be I I I like I say, uh at this point, uh, you know, going back 10 years, I'd I'd I'd have my own ministry or I'd be working for a ministry. Right. That's not what God uh you can help me, yeah, and let me show you how. Yeah, time, talent, and treasure, brother.
SPEAKER_02:And you're happy at what the Lord's had you do. Amen. Yes, and you've enjoyed it. I do uh immensely. And you hope to do it for a long time? I hope to do it for as long as they'll have me. Yeah, and anything else they need there at the uh Sunday services that you do, are these services or Bible study?
SPEAKER_01:Well, there are more services. We we go through through some singing, some praising, some prayer, some Bible uh study, and some more singing, and and of course, you know, benedictive prayers and uh and and and and uh and and giving them an opportunity to give themselves up to the Lord.
SPEAKER_02:So look, when you see these guys uh locked up like this, and um obviously at a low point in their life, not their favorite place to be. Nobody wants to be locked up. Oh no. So uh, you know, what do you say to those fellows? Uh you know, they say, Pastor Saul or you know, you had a nice life, you get to leave here. What am I supposed to do with God while I'm sleeping here? You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:What do you say to them? I say to them, uh, you know, there's there's hope, and hope is eternal. And that's what we've been given uh on this earth because we have uh the assurance that once we're off this earth, we've got eternal life uh with our Lord and and Maker. And and if you understand uh through the Word uh and staying in the Word and living by what Jesus uh set for us as an example, um and I always point into Matthew five through seven and say you want to know you want to know how to live a Christian life, read Matthew five through seven and try to do what Jesus is telling us to do. But most importantly, I tell him listen to what he's telling you, what he wants us to do. And and you know, and and how to deal with with stress, with anxiety, with sin and and forgiveness. Yeah, uh, and and know that that you can be forgiven and that there's no wrong that you have done or could do that that would blot out that forgiveness, but the only thing he asks in return is that you walk in absolute faith in what he says through his word and what the Holy Spirit uh guides you through when you're meditating on that word and what he's telling you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh what uh if you were to uh look ahead, uh, you know, we're both uh a couple of years older than most of the guys you minister to. Not that there aren't some guys. Yeah, there's some guys older, but but most of these young young guys are facing, maybe they've made a mistake, they've they're certainly unhappy with the way things turned out, they're a different plan. You know, what's what do you say to them? I mean, uh the guys, he's at his little point now, you you know, he's he's 30 years younger than us or something. Um, you know, how can we relate, what can you bring to a guy like that who's who's who's stuck, feels stuck, feels locked up, not just in a jail, but locked up inside, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Well I think the most important thing uh for them to um that I try to communicate to them is that you know they're not confined to those four walls. They may be in there physically, yeah, but spiritually and emotionally, yeah, uh they can grow into something better. And the only way to grow into that better is to stop relying on yourself, stop fixating on yourself and face yourself uh in the mirror and recognize all that you've done and know that all of that, in spite of all of that, yeah, you know, what God has done for us uh is enough to blot all that out. And the reality is you just have to walk the walk. Yeah, and and it's not easy, I keep reminding them. I stumble every day, uh internally and externally. I try my best. Um uh, but but you know, I I do know that if I'm I'm I'm acting in uh in in a way that is accomplishing God's will in my life, uh it which allows me then to share myself with others with love, which is what he's asked us to do. Yeah, uh, that that no matter the circumstance, you can pull through it. Uh and you're never alone. You're never alone. Even if you are confined to just four walls and one hour a week of outdoor recreation and you know, uh a set schedule for your meals, uh, all that is uh is is is nothing if if you're in the word of God and and you've accepted you know Christ as your Lord and Savior. Yeah. Because that's all you need. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's amazing that you can feel alone in a place full of other guys, uh, feel very alone. But the truth of the word of God is for those that repent of their sin, commit themselves to God, uh uh, trust Christ alone, you know, for salvation, that he paid for all their sins on the cross, and they trust that the anger of God, the judgment of God was poured out on Christ, not on us, and they go to him uh uh to ask for his mercy and repent, to offer to turn their life completely around, turn a new direction. Christ will save them, and then he's he'll be with them. Yeah, praise the Lord.
SPEAKER_01:And and and I tell them, yeah, once you've done that and you stay there, there's no turning back. The Holy Spirit is always gonna ping you when you're gonna do something wrong, or you do something wrong. The the thing is repent and repent quickly, and uh and God will take care of you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think uh look, this has been a great time together. The truth is uh uh former cops, um, guys that are listening from all different walks of life, and a former mayor, and uh we all are united around this great Savior. And that's really why we do this, uh to help us to understand uh that Christ can change your life wherever you're at. And so be encouraged today. This is your day to walk with Jesus, just take one step closer to Jesus every day.
SPEAKER_01:Amen.
