Transform Your Future with Eddie Isin

From Research to Manuscript: The Historical Fiction Writing Process w/Talia Carner Ep 36

• Eddie Isin • Season 1 • Episode 36

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In this episode of Transform Your Future, Eddie Isin sits down with acclaimed author Talia Carner to explore the intricate process of writing historical fiction. Talia, known for her meticulously researched novels, including her latest work The Boy with the Star Tattoo, shares her journey from initial inspiration to the final manuscript. This conversation delves into the importance of research, character development, and the challenges of writing about historical events while crafting a compelling narrative.

Key Topics:

  • [00:00] Introduction and Overview
    • Eddie introduces the episode's theme and special guest, Talia Carner. 
  • [04:26] Talia Carner’s Writing Inspiration
    • Talia discusses how a road sign in Normandy, France, sparked the idea for The Boy with the Star Tattoo. 
  • [07:36] Themes in The Boy with the Star Tattoo
    • Talia describes the dual themes of her novel: a 1969 Israeli naval operation and the post-WWII rescue of Jewish orphans in France. 
  • [13:26] The Research Process
    • The episode dives into Talia’s research methods, including her travels to historical sites and her deep immersion in archival materials. 
  • [22:12] Fiction vs. Nonfiction: Blending Research with Storytelling
    • Talia explains her approach to blending factual research with creative storytelling. 
  • [27:11] Talia’s Writing Process
    • Talia shares her organic writing process, where she does not outline but instead allows the story to unfold naturally. 
  • [31:17] Writing Rituals and Time Management
    • Talia talks about her non-ritualistic approach to writing, balancing her writing schedule with extensive book tours and speaking engagements. 
  • [37:17] The Business of Being an Author
    • Talia touches on the business side of being an author, including her relationship with HarperCollins, her approach to publicity, and the importance of building a strong market for her books through speaking engagements.
  • [41:08] Public Speaking and Toastmasters
    • Talia discusses her experience with Toastmasters, where she honed her public speaking skills. 
  • [46:37] The Journey to Publication
    • Talia recounts her journey from starting to write in 1993 to getting her first book published nine years later.
  • [52:11] Advice for Aspiring Writers
    • Talia offers valuable advice for aspiring writers, stressing the importance of mastering the craft and the need for thorough revisions. 

Resources:

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It depends on the book. I don'tl outline ever. I wish I could. I tried, but the outline for me doesn't work. I'm too remote. In my case, I get on the journey with a protagonist and I don't know where it's going to lead me. I have some idea of the general theme, but every scene that is being written, I literally close my eyes and I type like this. Literally I'm in a and let it write itself. And then there's the next one and the next one and the next one. Papaya. Hello all and welcome to another episode of Transform Your Future with me, Eddie Isin, where I sit down with entrepreneurs, thought leaders, and high achievers as they identify areas I can improve on and guide me to further my self-improvement practice. For more information and insights, join my newsletter@transformyourfuture.com where I write about reinvention, personal growth, and entrepreneurship. If you like the show, you'll love the content on my site. We want to hear from you. Let us know how we can improve your listening and viewing experience. Suggest upcoming topics or a great guest for the show. Please reach out to us through our website, your podcast app comment, or just text me directly at 8 1 3 7 2 2 1 4 1 7. We want to hear from you. Today we embark on a journey from research to manuscript in the realm of historical fiction writing. If you've ever wondered how authors breathe life into the past, creating stories that both educate and entertain, this episode is for you. We'll be unpacking the meticulous process of historical fiction writing from the initial spark of inspiration to the final polished manuscript. Our special focus today is on the acclaimed author, Talia Karner, whose latest novel, the Boy with the Star Tattoo, serves as a prime example of how historical fiction can illuminate forgotten chapters of history. While telling a compelling human story, Talia has authored several novels that delve into the complex social issues through richly researched historical context. In The Boy with the Star Tattoo, she explores two intertwined narratives, a daring Israeli naval operation in 1969 and the post World War II rescue of Jewish orphans across Europe. Talia's approach to blending meticulous research with gripping storytelling is what sets her work apart and provides a masterclass in historical fiction writing and the author business. In this episode, we'll explore the layers of work that go into a novel like Talia's. It all starts with research, deep, immersive, and often painstakingly detailed forta. This meant not only revisiting historical archives, but also traveling to places like Normandy, France to walk the same streets as her characters. We'll discuss how such thorough research forms the backbone of historical fiction providing the authenticity that readers crave. Finally, we'll delve into the writing process itself, drafting, revising and refining a manuscript until it's ready for publication. Talia's experience shows that historical fiction is as much about craftsmanship as it is about storytelling from finding the right voice to ensuring historical accuracy. Every step is crucial in creating a work that captivates and informs. Join us as we explore the integrate process of historical fiction writing with insights from Talia Carney's incredible journey from research to manuscript. Whether you're an aspiring writer or an avid reader, this episode will deepen your appreciation for the art of bringing history to life through fiction. Welcome to Transform Your Future Podcast, Talia, how are you today? I'm wonderful. It's a great weather today here in the Hamptons, New York, and I'm delighted to be on your podcast. Yes, absolutely. I'm very excited. We're going to dive in You is your experience as an author who's released six novels, who's just released The Boy in the Star Tattoo. I want to talk all about the story and tell me the backstory and let's get into it. So what was your motivation? What was your motivation internally to write this book? The Boy with the Star Tattoo. The way this book was written was very similar to all the previous books, and that is something hits me, some very passing comment, maybe a piece of artwork I glimpse, maybe a conversation I overhear on the bus in New York City and in this case it was a road sign and ba boom. From that point on, the idea gets planted in my head. It starts chasing me and that various clues come in and very often I discover that the issue involved in that particular book has actually has dwelt in my head for maybe 20 years. And I knew more about it than I'd thought that I didn't give much thought to it until this begins to ferment and forces me to do nothing else but sit down and write that book. It involves tremendous amount of research. So we can talk about that later, but that is the case with the Boy with a Star Tattoo where a road sign in Normandy, France when my husband and I were just traveling there and we didn't even want to stop there. It's a port city. But as we drove on, I remembered the 1969 Israeli Navy action in Bul France and in the month following, I read about it, but I was busy writing another novel and I didn't give it much attention. And we can talk more about how that idea began to chase me around. Yes, absolutely. So the road sign was the thing that triggered the memories and the ideas. You realized that there was something in there meaty for you that you really wanted to talk about that had been on your mind for a long time, and that started you on the process. So I guess I'd like to just take a moment now, let's just talk about the actual story and what the book is about, to let the audience know what they can expect. Okay, well, the Boy with the Starter too has two themes. They are very small in the cover. This is the boat, Israeli Boats, which I'm going to talk about. And this is a tattoo at the bottom of the foot of the baby. So obviously there are tiny little things, but those are the two things. I'll start with the 1969 Israeli Naval Action. The story goes that Israel had ordered 12 boats to be built in a private shipyard in surg France, and in late 1967, the goal announced in arms embargo and it was on the delivery of the rest of the boats. Five had been delivered, number six and seven kind of snuck out. But then as five more boats, we would come out of production. In the next year and a half, maybe 16 months, the Israeli Navy started to plan a various scenarios. The way it went became an international sensation, and that's what I can mention more about that before, other than under the nose of the French on Christmas night, 1969, the boats took off. The idea was that the French government had pressured Israel to sell the boats for oil exploration for other countries. And finally in that Christmas time, Israel relented sold it supposedly to Norway. But when the boats were out and about, they were going to the Gibraltar Strait and the Gibraltar Strait. So it was sold to Norway and now it's in the Gibraltar Strait lead to the Mediterranean, and there's no Norway in the Mediterranean. Turns out it was a ruse of only a mailbox in Norway. But there's a lot to this story. Obviously the international involvement and the Can-do approach of the Israeli IDF in Israel, the Navy Air Force ground forces and intelligence are all under one umbrella called the IDF the second. But I don't write naval warfare. I write social issues, moral dilemmas, human dramas. And what was I doing with all of this information that was coming to me almost passively? I went to Shabo again, and this time didn't just pass the road sign, but settled in town to wait to see whether the story would actually come to me, the story that I need to write. And sure enough, the protagonist, a 20-year-old Sharon, former IDF intelligence analyst, came to me as the protagonist and she led me to the second theme, which is the human drama. And that's where the, I would say the important part of the book. And that is the rescuing of Jewish Orphans Post World War ii. Now, this is not a Holocaust book, it's that part starts in 1946 when teams of Israeli agents roamed the countryside in Europe in search of Jewish orphans. My book focuses only on France because of the two events. I wanted to keep it there, but at this part it was true for all of Europe. The question is how do you find a Jewish orphan? Parents left kids with business associates many times housekeepers took the kids all for what they had thought was two, three months, never expected. It'll be years, and definitely not that they would never come back. So did an agent knock on the farm door of every farm and say, do you by any chance have a kid here that nobody claimed? And let me take her across the Mediterranean to a country whose language she doesn't speak, and the people have just raised her for four years, we say to this total stranger at the door, sure, made absolutely no sense. Yet we know that this is how youth Aliyah is. This is called Aliyah means immigrating to Israel and youth. Obviously this is how youth Aaliyah happened. So what was the mood in France that made it possible? What were these people thinking? What motivated them to hand those kids to total strangers? And that's what I'm exploring in this book because it's an incredible phenomenon. I grew up in Israel. I am younger or I was younger when at the time that I knew about it, they were all older than me because they had been born before the state of Israel. They were now kids or anywhere between five and 18, maybe they were kids by the way, that during the war years have matured. If they were teenagers when left, then they matured, then maybe disappeared or they found other ways to join the kind of movement. There were young kids who never knew their names, never remembered their parents anymore. They were too young to remember anything. There were cases of relatives who showed up and wanted to take them blood relatives, but the kids didn't know them. And if the kids were old enough, like 1214, they resisted. And then of course there was always the question in anything I said to you at this moment was an assumption of people raising those strange kids were dropped into their midst for supposedly a couple of months, and now it's going for years as if they loved and treated them so well. But from what I know from my previous books and the many research projects that I've done, the children that are not well protected by responsible adults are also extremely exploited either for labor or sex. So that was another part that was happening. The labor part was that this was a rural society. Kids worked in the farm. They may not have gone to school as regularly or school where the local school could have been five miles away. It wasn't convenient to go back and forth every day. So they were a lot of neglect along with sometimes love, but the overriding mood. And that was, it took me a year and a half to get the answer, why would these people give the kids away? And there were two answers. One was money simply. There was a woman by the name of Henrietta Sold who had founded originally another organization called Hadassah 35 years prior. And she was a dynamic woman, an American who raised enormous amount of money. And those agents who came from Israel that had no money were flushed with money to give it to these people and say, may I compensate you for the years that you've been raising the child? So in a more elegant way, basically post World War ii, everybody was destitute. So the money came in handy. The other overarching answer was that the mood in France after the fall of the Third Republic and now with the hopes for the Fourth Republic, which were not necessarily all uniform, different factions, had different ideas of what the new country post-war was going to be. And that's not an idea that we are unfamiliar with. People have different worldview. But the overarching view in France was that to be French is number one, the republic, the collective good. Under the idea of the collective good came the idea, for example, of religious belonging. So that means children who've been baptized, many of them were now belong to the church and therefore they were Christian and the Christian world should have them. Jewish organizations will be crying that and saying, if you stole our kids, all you do is continuing Hitler's work. The kids are our future. And they were individuals who had understood that and believed in that. And that's part, again, of the overarching collective good, but in this case, understanding the Jewish claim for the children. So somebody who's been raising a child may say, yes, she belongs with her people even though we love her and we would love, she's a part of our family. Her bigger family is the Jewish people. So that was the second answer. There was never a question of the welfare of a child. Those kinds of questions of late 20th century, early 21st century, when we look to see what's good for the kid, the kids were not part of the equation. So those are the two themes that come into play. How do the two connect? That is the story. And I mentioned Sharon, my 20 old protagonist. Her boss was a kid of four who had been found in a French village. He doesn't know where, what anything, but he was brought to Israel with youth Leon. Now he is an Israeli naval officer in, and he's the one who recruits her to work on the project that they have to prepare for the possible escape of the boats, which was a very complicated project. So I couldn't get, as a woman, I couldn't give her any of the jobs of the men that I know. I interviewed more than 20 Israelis involved in that. And women, they were not on the boats were not part of the operation, but she could be an assistant who is very insightful. And there were pieces I could have given her from the real stories of the preparation. So she is now becomes obsessed with her boss's past because she discovers one day on the beach that he has a star tattoo at the bottom of his foot, and she begins to follow a trail of breadcrumbs along through friends to try to figure out somebody knows something about this strange tattoo, which she understood. It's when he couldn't be circumcised, but when she discovers the answers, she's shocked and she's not ready for the moral dilemma. And I'm not going to give more of the story, but that is the Boy with a Star tattoo. I love it. Let me tell you something, Nelson Demill, the author, number one probably in the country, said in a blurb here, A historical fiction does not get better then a boy with a star tattoo too. I mean, it could have just said, it's a great book, but doesn't get better. Thank you, Nelson. Fantastic. Yeah, I love it. And I love the way that you put the narrative together. And this is a common theme for writers and authors that I identify with, that really oftentimes there's something that you really want to write about and plot. And story is just a thing that you can hang your hat on to take the viewer from A to B in some good process where they enjoy the story and they feel elated through the ups and downs. But really underneath it all was this one theme that you really, really want to write about and get people to think about. Right? So that's pretty awesome. That's pretty awesome. I must tell you also that the advantage of fiction versus nonfiction is for me and probably for many authors, is that we completely identify with the protagonist, or if you have two or three, in my case, they are three point of view characters. So it's sometimes challenging, but you need to follow them. And the stories are different before they come together. Like braided. The way I write is I crawl under the skin of the protagonist and I see the world from her eyes through her eyes from with her ears. I sense the weather on my skin, but mostly I bring in the emotions and it's very much like a dream where everything feels very real. And that is why I think fiction works because not only the author identifies and goes on the journey with the protagonist, but the reader is completely captivated in that process and in that journey. And I have a challenge which is again, correct for any book, and that is, let's say a reader reads my book at night, she puts it down next to her bed, or if it's a Kindle, puts it down at any point, and it can be several over the length of a book in the morning. She doesn't have time to pick it up A full day at the office, the boss is yelling, the zooming the kids, she gets a call from the school nurse, the kid open his chin, she has to run to the emergency room, a variety of things. All she thinks about is, oh my God, I can't wait to get back home and everything is quiet and I have to pick up the book. That point of tension is something that I have to have anywhere in the book where, because I don't know where, at what point, what page, in what paragraph a reader puts it down. So at any point there should be a hook, and I call it the moral dilemma, so that the reader is involved. And it could be this character, that character, small one, minor one, a big one. No characters just shows up to show their face. And in that respect, you can compare it maybe for a piece of theater on stage, every character has a role. You don't have superficial characters running around unless you need some background audience. But every speaking character has a role and their role has to be important. So going from that, it's interesting. So what process do you use to plan that out and organize it? For me, I often would do things like get three by five cards, and then each character has a three by five card. And then on there I would put information about the character, maybe the things that drive them internally and the things that drive them externally to try to put it all together with all the other characters. And then how when they get together, this person's internal motivation is in conflict with this other person's internal motivation, things like that. Is that how you plan it out? It depends on the book. I don't outline ever. I wish I could, I tried, but the outline for me doesn't work. I'm too remote. In my case, I get on the journey with a protagonist and I don't know where it's going to lead me. I have some idea of the general theme, but every scene that is being written, I literally close my eyes and I type like this. Literally I'm in a trance and let it write itself. And then there's the next one and the next one and the next one. So I don't use that method of cards unless in this case, after I had all of this, all of the material of all of the characters, each one wrote himself for herself. I have one point of view, male character and two females, I had to put them together. And that's when I put the scenes on color coded cards, put them on the floor in terms of organizing the order, who knows what and what. And then took tremendous amount of writing and rewriting when something happened and where's the other character involved or knows about it or not. That was a very long and tedious process that I don't recommend. I have not done it before ever. This is my sixth novel, and I didn't have to do it when I had just one character going throughout the book. Now, I did have one book called Hotel Moscow where I needed to, I kept a chart of doing what you were doing. Where is the cliffhanger in each scene? What were the scene trying to accomplish? What was the end of the scene? Was it really suspenseful? You don't want to close it too neatly. Actually this, not my invention, but Stephen King, the big author, has a how to write book. It's fabulous. And it's about putting tension everywhere. So he says it's like the mounting tension and it gets ratcheted. So there's little along that mounting tension, there is like a small drop between paragraphs or substance, and then the end of the chapter, you have a little bit of a drop, but not too much, just enough to create the need for the tension for the next one. So in that book, hotel Moscow, let me find it. I use that, okay, tell Moscow I use that charge chart because I wanted to make sure that it did that my others just were straight line. Yeah, no, I like it. I like it a lot. And the way that you unfold the story organically through character and focus on character and let that unfold the story, I think that's really good. You have to be able to trust your process and trust your vision. Yes. Yes. So other than that, what kind of other just simple strategies do you use? Do you write every day? Do you have a certain time? Is there a writing ritual that you use? Okay, so first of all, I don't use any ritual. I'm not a ritualistic person and I don't have music or any interruption. I sit, but now it look like it's in the attic of my house. I have a wonderful writing, actually, if I could have turned this around, you'll see that I'm looking at a fantastic world of view, but so I need my peace and quiet and that's it. Now, as far as when I write, I always have, I am on book tour, so I do tremendous amount of speaking engagements in person as well as Zoom, as well as podcasts like yours. Between February 1st when the book came out and the end of coming June, I have 50 in-person events. And what's involved around that gives me absolutely no time to write. Going forward. My book tour will continue already into next year because I have invitations only in a really quiet times. I have time to write. And by now it varies. I am better off in the morning, I would say I used to do very well late at night after dinner, if I didn't have other plans, my husband and I were available not doing anything, I would go back to my office and put in five hours until one 30 or so, at which point I would force myself to go to sleep. Otherwise, I would not be as functional. Even though I may get enough hours of sleep, it affected me. So now I don't have particular times. It's making the time when nothing else is happening, then that's all I want to do is write. So at this point, I have book number seven in my head. I've already written several chapters, but I need to travel. Most all my books are set in different countries, not because I select the country, but they select me. So I mentioned Hotel Moscow, obviously it's Russia, Jerusalem made, it's in Jerusalem, but also half of it takes place in Paris. The third daughter is in Buenos Aires, and the boy with a daughter too, obviously it's in north France, it's a beta in Paris in it, there's more China doll. China Doll is obviously in China, and Puppet child takes place actually mostly in Naau in Long Island, New York. So why am I saying that is because my new novel, it's the issue that picks me up. I don't go and say, okay, what happened? I need to write something about Buenos Aires. No, I found about legal sex trafficking that was headquartered in Buenos Aires because it was legal for 70 years, from 1870 until World War ii. It was legal and it was legal to enslave the women in the country that didn't have slavery. So that's how the story ended up being in Buenos Airs, not because I was looking for something that happened, Buenos airs. It's something the subject of sex trafficking. That was an amazing story that I wanted to tell, and that brings me to my new one, which takes place in a country I never wanted to visit. Actually, I had avoided, and now I found myself working on that, and I have a lot of research ahead of me. I do tremendous amount of research, and especially if I don't know the country and everything has to be authentic, the details of life, because a protagonist knows her country, knows her life. I can't invent the food, the can of speech in a language I don't speak. So there's a lot of work ahead of me to produce that book. That's excellent. Yes, we have a great commitment to your craft, and you have a definite process that brings it all alive, that you're refining constantly each book, refining it, making it a little bit better, a little bit better. That's awesome. That's really awesome. So when you talk about publicity and whatnot, and by the way, so was the book, who published the book, did you have a publisher? Harper Collins. Harper Collins, okay. Harper. Collins is my publisher. Yes. So that makes it, it's wonderful in terms of distribution because it's everywhere. And even if any English language countries can get it because it's Harper Collins, you don't need. Yes. Sometimes if it's a big book on uk, they may be printing it in the uk, but otherwise it's available. That's what I'm saying, South Africa and India and so on. And so your publicity tours and what you're doing, the speaking engagements, going to different countries to speak on the issues? No, no, not different countries. Not even too many parts of this country. I get so many invitations locally to large groups. So I try, let's say in winter, I live in South Florida, so I have a lot of organizations that are set there, and I'm talking between 75 to 500 attendees. I'm not talking a bookstore where two people may show up. I'm talking about ticketed events. People have to buy, let's say it's a luncheon, they know months in advance that Talia Carner is coming. They read my book or they buy it or they plan to, or they have read my previous ones. So it's a ticketed event. You know how many are coming, and that's a wonderful way to do it. It's not easy for a lot of authors, but I built that market. I built it from my first book to be invited to do public speaking. I never ever read from my book, you read from your book, you are not going to be keynoting a lunch. You have to tell a compelling story as a keynote speaker that motivates and chance and thrills the audience. So that's what I've developed for myself. Now, Harper Collins supports me, but in my case, Talia does all of this and you can have your audience now look at my website. Are you going to put my name there? Yes, I'll drop. That. It's www talia carner my name.com, and you can see what my upcoming book tour is listed. That's great. So since you took me there, I mean, that was one of the things in my thought process I was thinking about. So you're out there keynoting with these speeches. What kind of work do you put into develop those speeches? I'm always curious. I talk to some people who they just kind of go off the cuff. They have an idea of what they're already going to talk about, the themes and ideas, and obviously it's their life and their pursuit that they've spent all their time on. So they just speak from the heart, so to speak, of with something focused on some theme. Some people actually write it out and develop it and practice it and deliver it to some people to get feedback. I mean, they have very intensive process that they might use. I'm just curious about what's your process when you're doing that? So which one of those two groups you just outlined to me, which one do you think gets invited again? Well, I think probably the person who's much more thoughtful about what they're going to say, how they're going to say it, and the ups and downs of that speech to take people in the audience through feeling like, wow, that was, I really enjoyed that, right? That they had some ups and downs in there, emotional and logical. I've heard authors talk other nonsense or give out the entire story of the book, especially when those who write memoirs or self-help, they give the whole thing. You don't need to read the book. The important part is I had spent 10 years at Toastmasters. Toastmasters is an international organization with chapters everywhere. And now since Covid, they have also viral online, zooming, but specific, you join a specific group and you create your community in which you learn. And it's a very specific way to learn how to deliver public speaking. As you may notice now in all of this interview, you never heard me say, ah, you never said me. They immediately beat that out of you. They teach you to pause instead of ah, and they teach you vocal varieties, body language. You learn to practice in an environment with your colleagues, the friends that you make in that. It's a very specific, the program is at the hour, how the hour is divided by this kind of talk and this kind of speech and this kind of training. And I've done this for 10 years. I did it for 10 years. I've graduated and I don't have time. I still enjoy it. And what's also wonderful, if you come out of Toastmasters or while you are there, whenever you go to any town, any city, if you have nothing to do and you contact your local Toastmasters club and you may say, do you happen to have a meeting? And you look on the internet, you can see I'd like to come as a guest. You come in a guest and you are right there in a program because they have the same program where you have, so I go to Paris and I made new friends there because I fall into any of their clubs. It's a wonderful way to meet new people and enjoy an evening. And of course, Paris, they do it with dinner in my New York club, they gave us mints. Paris, they have dinner. But. Anyway, back to public speaking, you definitely have to train. You definitely have to do what you need to get ready. This year I heard an author and novice who wrote something like her memoir, and she read the whole thing. It was so bad she could have handed a printout. First of all, it's about her life. She knows her life. Why does she need, you can have maybe make a list of points that, just to remind you, what's the next paragraph? Subject. She was really the worst I've heard in a very long time because reading your speech, it's the worst thing you can ever do. The audience feels cheated. That's great. And your eyes are not at the audience. You don't catch the eyes, you don't talk to them. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I love it. I love it. So you definitely plan it out. You organize it, you practice it, you make it to be the best that you can do. Yes. And eventually with each book, the topic I speak about becomes kind of, I mean, I repeat the same speech more or less. There are some nuances that I may change based upon the audience. For example, I mentioned to you Henrietta Sold, who founded another organization that another organization is called Hadassah, which is a Jewish women's organization. So if I speak to Hadassa group, I may talk much more about this fantastic woman than I would to a historical society, people who are focusing on the French part of the history of the story. So there is an adjustment. Yes, yes. So when did, I'm just trying to figure it out in my mind. When was your first book released? How many years ago. When it was published, or when did I start writing? Either one? How long ago was that? I started writing on November 3rd,

1993 at 2:

48 PM. Okay. My first book got published nine years later. So it wasn't an easy process. It's some story that most authors go through with agents, agent that died on me, agent that retired on me, agents that didn't do the job agents. My book no longer was a Virgin once. It was in, introduced to some publishers before the agent decided to retire just five weeks later. So that a novel that's no longer Virgin, no other agent is going to touch it, and no, you can't get it anywhere. So there are a lot of those stories, which all authors I know. I mean, they are hardly ever one in a million except exception that it's a very long and painful process. So I really appreciate your candor and I love it. I love it. We're talking about a lot of good stuff here. So through those challenges, through those ups and downs, through those disappointments, you still keep working on your craft. You still keep moving it forward. That's awesome. Yeah. Once I landed at Harper Collins, which was my third book, so the first two were with very small publishers once, so now I've done four with Harper Collins, and I'm pretty confident that they would publish whatever it is that I write within reason. That has to be very good. And it takes me four, five years to write. It's writing, editing, reeding, revising, restructuring, editing. Again, if I say at least 40 times, I'm not exaggerating at all. Jerusalem Maiden was the one that I thought was 80 times, literally, I think 80 times I went through this book. And therefore, this is why advice to a lot of people now do self publishing. They finish at night and they put it on Amazon Digital the next morning, and they expect people to give them rave reviews. And for me, it's like you just got your first lesson and piano lesson and you rent the Carnegie Hall and you want to give a concert, and you're surprised that not everybody thinks you are ready for Carnegie Hall. I love that analogy. So there is a process that a lot of new authors skip and that is learning the craft and whether it's fiction or nonfiction, because nonfiction is usually, it's creative nonfiction. What do I mean by creative nonfiction? And that is, for example, there have been conversations between people. You didn't record it, but you rewrite. You write it in a way that is true to the character or the characters and their dynamics and the time and place and how relevant it is. So you have to invent it. That is the creative part. But you learn that from, there are big people who have done it. If you read the biographies of, I'm right now listening to Ellen Musk, it's huge book. It's a thousand words. Isaacson. Yes, a thousand pages. But I'm listening to it in a car, and obviously Isaacson is a fantastic biographer, but he has a live audience. But if you go on a biography of Robert Carer who writes about Lyndon Johnson, who's long dead, and he recreates conversations and it historically has to be correct and the characters, that is where the creative nonfiction comes in. That is a good nugget right there. I like that. I like that a lot. I'm working on a nonfiction book right now, and it's like some of the people who I talked to about this idea, some of them just feel like you just spit it out, just outline it on a weekend and then two weeks later you just work for whatever, 10 hours a day for a week or two weeks, and then you're done and you go publish it and release it. And I'm like, I think there's more to it than that. I think the standard that I am trying to achieve is that it is something worth remarking about, worth talking about that people want to share with other people. I don't just want to do it just to say I did it so I could say, yeah, I did it. You can buy the book on Amazon. I'm looking for more than that. Yes. And there's also this dash of reality of what? So you expect your mother and a couple of your cousins to buy it and some best friends. So you end up selling 10 copies and you force them. They don't have a choice. I have to give you five stars, and I've long learned, if an author asks me for a review, first of all, I'm very careful. I say, how much time did you spend? I'm saying, it's sight and scene. I'm not judging your writing. I want you to tell me how was your process? And when I don't hear that, they had a writing group and had peer review and worked on it, as I understand, then I don't review it, but let's say still intrigues me and I think this is done. I said to them, if I read the book, if I will not give it even a three star to a beginner writer, so I will put it down, and you'll never hear from me. You just know that this was not for me. But if I think that it's a four star, don't come back to me and tell me I ruined your chances in the world because they expect that. Either give him five star or nothing. Well, I may give you four stars, and if you don't like that, then don't ask me to read your book. Because four stars is, I mean, Dostoevsky for some people would be a five star and everything below it would be four stars, four stars. Not a bad review. But these novice writers have those ideas. Well, and there's a whole bunch of people out there in the world today making a living by convincing other people to take their personal experience, put it in a book and launch it. And so they have a lot of ideas that they talk about often that really are based upon ego in a way. They trigger the other person's ego. You're going to be a star. You're going to have a book. You're going to go out there. You could talk about it, but not really understanding. There's a craft involved in here, and there's a real need to move an audience, whether that be reading the word on the page or listening to you speak. This is the goal is we want to impact people's lives. Yes, absolutely. You're right. Yeah, we spent a lot of time talking and I've loved our time together. I appreciate you so much. I'm grateful for you. I'm going to talk to you some more. We're going to communicate. I'll keep communicating with you and thank you. Maybe we could just have you back on again because I could see that we could talk for hours. Well, thank you very much. You're a wonderful interviewer. Thank you. You got me to talk a lot, so that means that you are the one who has the talent here. Thank you so much. For more information and monthly topics of interest, please go to transform Your future.com and join the newsletter.