Trudge Report

Ep. 115 - Is Religion Enough? Where Religion & Spirituality Diverge In Our Recovery

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Trudge Report. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. We begin this week with some quick life updates. Greg's week took a turn for the not so good but he's keeping a positive attitude and looking at it as an opportunity rather than a negative. Dan continues to be baffled by the hot and cold weather swings in his neck of the woods and also taking his daughter and her softball team to go watch Ohio State v Penn State softball. Corey power washes his mom's driveway and admits that it is mediocre at best. Followed by some late night Taco Bell runs. 

The recovery portion of the show this week surrounds the necessity or choice of whether we in recovery practice any type of religion or belong to religious bodies. We make it clear that religion or religious membership is not mandatory for happy and lasting sobriety. However, there is some overlap for many of us and there are many people in recovery that choose to take up membership in religious organizations. We discuss what we feel works and does not work in religion, keeping it plain in sight that we are not telling anyone how they must or must not believe. We discuss each of our childhood religious upbringings and where we are now with these beliefs and practices.

"When you pray, take time to thank God for the blessings you already have.” -Anonymous- 

Don't forget to like, share, rate, and download the podcast on all of your listening platforms. Check out and subscribe to our YouTube channel, @trudgrereportpod, for other content surrounding sports and trending topics. Trudge on good people. 

Contact the Guys:
Instagram: @trudgereportpod
Facebook: Trudge Report
TikTok: trudgereportpod
YouTube: @trudgereportpod 

Don't forget to like, share, rate, and download the podcast on all of your listening platforms. Check out and subscribe to our YouTube channel, @trudgrereportpod, for other content surrounding sports and trending topics. Trudge on good people. 

Contact the Guys:
Instagram: @trudgereportpod
Facebook: Trudge Report
TikTok: trudgereportpod
YouTube: @trudgereportpod 

SPEAKER_00

Ladies and gentlemen, good evening and welcome to another episode of Trudge Report. We are a recovery-based podcast. My name is Sean, and I am your host. Joined by my good friends and fellow Trudgers, please remember to listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you may get your podcasts. These videos will be posted each week. Uh, so you can watch them on YouTube and Facebook. But as always, please be sure to download on your listening platforms. Remember to like and subscribe on all social media outlets with the handle at Trudge Report Pod. This podcast is brought to you by Stella Mix Podcast Management. Corey, what do we do to that like button? What do we do? You lick it real soft. Smash that like button. One of these days I'll tell you where you say, smash that like button like you're Brandon Davies. You have consent. Danny, that's a college basketball reference. One of these days I'll explain what it really means. There are more of us than there are of them. Are you guys an us? Are you guys an us or are you a them? Is that like a non-binary thing? Like what it's what do you expect? It's not even, it's actually way more normal than you even think it is. Um it has to do, it has to do with premarital sex, Corey. I'm high right now, I think. Are you are you an us? The uses have had premarital sex, the themes have not. I I'm the biggest fan of fornication, so okay, good. No, it's a it's a it's legitimately a true college basketball story that I'll I'll I'll save for another day. But the four of us, we are definitely uses, that's for sure. Well dang old sinner, boy. 100% uses. Um straight to hell. Gentlemen, good evening. It's uh it's recording day. Um starting the great Midwest. GA Phillips, how are you, sir?

SPEAKER_02

I'm doing alright, man. It's uh it was it was I'm gonna have to be vague here, but yeah, it was it was a rough week uh over this way, and um definitely a rough end to the week. And I don't know, uh it's we're getting through it. Um these in the trying times we all have in life, I think. Um just goes to show you what's important and and helps you remember what's important, which is family, good friends, you know, the time shared, premarital sex. Um, yes, yeah, all those things. But yeah, it I uh turned a rough week into a pretty good weekend, man. We just we Peyton's uh sports schedule was packed for this weekend, so we got a lot of uh baseball, football, football, soccer, more baseball, so uh a lot of fun and got to watch the Cavs win with uh with uh Peyton. He he enjoyed that, and then yeah, a couple nights of WrestleMania. So good good times uh had over the weekend. So yeah, good.

SPEAKER_00

Well sorry for the trying times, but glad it glad it's uh turned it into a positive, that's for sure. They are what they are.

SPEAKER_03

Danny P. What's up, man? It was a good good weekend for the Phillips and the missionary crew, sports and wrestle mania, man. I mean you guys you guys were hitting on on all cylinders. I love it. I can't watch it.

SPEAKER_01

I can't watch WrestleMania.

SPEAKER_02

Dude, I would have tweeted about that last night. Just w why wouldn't why didn't you ask for the login?

SPEAKER_01

I I didn't know that you could share those, I guess. Where are you gonna do? You didn't know you could share I have your Disney Plus account. I know, but then it ask you if you were like a alien or something.

SPEAKER_00

It kind of it just wants to know. It says it's it says they're getting smart. It says, Oh, I I notice you're away from your home device. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you traveling or what are you doing? And I have to sit hit the like uh like oh, I'm away from my home for a while and has to send you a code, but well, I too bad there's not a mind your business button.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I uh yeah we'll get back to Dan. Liberal Disney. We'll get back to Dan, but I I do want to say that I found a uh a streaming link on on Reddit and it led me to a link with just tons of nudity. So that wasn't WrestleMania, but whatever.

SPEAKER_03

It was it wasn't that's questionable, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That was WrestleMania after dark baby.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I I've been known to call it by multiple names as well. Hey, dude, we're all us. We are uses.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. If Vince McMahon shows up on that stream, I uh I'm gonna turn that fucker off. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Corey's heard me in the in the us version of the WrestleMania in the bedroom before. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

945.

SPEAKER_03

945, Dan. 945. Time to go.

SPEAKER_00

I seem to catch a uh cramp when I'm when I'm uh doing WrestleMania. Right, right thigh cramp for some reason. It's the worst. Oh the worst. You gotta power through it. You just gotta power through it.

SPEAKER_03

You gotta straighten it up, straighten it up a little bit, bro.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

This is why I don't want to get old.

SPEAKER_00

The kick leg straight, the other well, yeah. You know how it goes.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. You know how it goes. Oh, man. We're good.

SPEAKER_00

Dan, how are you? What else is going on, Dan?

SPEAKER_03

Oh man, we're uh we actually had a great night tonight. We went to the uh OSU softball game for uh community softball outing, and that was pretty fun, man. Yeah, it was like freezing. I mean, like 20 mile per hour winds and like 40 degrees, you know, but we still had a blast. All the girls got to run the bases and slap high five with all the Ohio State players. They got all the all the autographs from every single player and stuff. Ohio State kicked Penn State's butt, so that was pretty cool. They hit like four home runs. Um, yeah, I mean it was a good night, man. And yeah, we're uh softball season is starting on the 27th. So gear enough for that. Mine's been uh we've been practicing pitching and stuff like that, and uh work is bananas, you know, just working every single day pretty much, you know, late night Larry's and all the the full full everything, but uh gotta strike while the iron's hot, you know. And then and um yeah, I'm trying to think what else is gonna happen this week. Not much, man. Just the ebb and flow weather is killing me. I mean, that's for sure. The the hot and cold and uh it's it's just like uh yeah, it's totally a mood. A mood killer, that's for sure. But uh otherwise every everything's good, man. Everything's all good.

SPEAKER_00

Good stuff. Hey Corey. Hey man. How's it going, bud?

unknown

Good.

SPEAKER_00

We had we had an adventure last night.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, Sean Sean took me to uh rob a cast station. He took me to 7-Eleven to rob them. He he told me to uh just use my phone and make it look like a weapon. Say it's a bomb. Yeah. Nah, we had fun. Yeah, it was good. I tell you what, those boneless wings, uh not a great idea. Not so good. 7 Eleven. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00

We went to the Applebee's to the Applebee's, Greg. The Applebee's.

SPEAKER_02

Guys, I was in the the lone Applebee's?

SPEAKER_00

Uh in that part of Melbourne, Florida, yeah, probably. It was right next to the chilies. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Did you guys plan a sobriety dinner for Sean's sobriety years?

SPEAKER_00

Nah, nah. We we took uh we took a couple, we we kidnapped a couple newcomers, we threw them in the in the car and uh took them about an hour and a half north. I was uh I had the the privilege of speaking at the Space Coast Young People's Group up in Melbourne, Florida, uh in a very warm church um auditorium. Very warm, very warm. Um, but it was fun. We took uh took two new guys that Corey and I are mentoring. They're they're both in the the old artesian transitional housing together. Uh yeah. We kidnapped them and threw them in the house.

SPEAKER_01

I told I told my guy you should probably leave. Nobody gets sober here.

SPEAKER_00

Corey's guy Corey's guy is funny, dude. Corey's guy is shot out of a cannon, it's really funny. Young book, too. Young book. Genuine though. Genuine. Yeah, no, for sure. No, definitely, definitely willing, both of them.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

What else is going on, Corey? How are you? Good, dude. Uh I dude, I'm so not I don't know if you guys know this about me. I am not built for manual labor at all. And uh Oh, you had to power wash the old mom's house today, huh? Yeah, power wash the effing house and uh God, I hate it. I hate power washing.

SPEAKER_02

You had a you had a power washer, right?

SPEAKER_03

No, you're doing it by hand. It's just hose. Yeah, he's putting his finger on the hose to get extra pressure. That's not that bad. Well, what would how else do you power wash?

SPEAKER_02

We're kidding, Corey. Of course you're gonna put it in. That's like as far as like manual labor jobs, like that one's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's not. That's yeah, that's like literally maybe a shoulder tweak, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe that's about it. Well, the thing is you gotta hold it up high. So that sucks. I'm not that's the thing, I'm not. So but I and I reset a mailbox today, too. I that was they got that checked off the old bucket list. Um I just whatever. Yeah, it was good. It was good though. I think got some progress. I'm sure your mom appreciates it. Yeah, yeah, she does.

SPEAKER_03

I want to see the uh final outcome to see if this is above board or not.

SPEAKER_01

I told I even said to my mom, I was like, this is mediocre. Like I'm watching it, I'm like, this is fucking so mediocre. I was like, I wouldn't. I mean, it sucks. And she's like, it looks great. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm like, of course you're gonna say that. Like it's free and it's me.

SPEAKER_00

Free labor.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. But uh yeah, I did that. I also slammed some taco bells, so that was cool. Nice, dude. My god bless him. I might get some taco bell tonight. God, you eat very late, don't you?

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah. Yeah, I haven't. Yeah. Is that like on purpose? It's just kind of the way life has transpired transpired, my friend. I I don't know, like like Yeah, it's a long it's it's not really a long story, actually. I just don't like to eat. I like to eat when the kids are asleep and I get to relax and eat, watch TV, and like do all that. Um like I sat down and had a bite to eat with them while they were eating dinner tonight, but but I like to I was gonna ask you that, but I didn't want to be like an asshole being like, what do you not eat with your family? Like no, no, we do, but not every night just because we're busy, but no, like we were all home tonight. We did the baby ate, the baby's the booted that boy can put some food down. Let me tell you what. He's a he's a McDonald's for sure. But no, I I I eat a lot. I actually eat quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01

All right. That's fine. You know what I did, Sean? You know what I've been doing for at least the last I don't know, three months. Anytime I get Taco Bell, which is the daily prayer meditation? Nice Corey, good. I'm proud of you. I've been getting Taco Bell too much. Clog Clog in the toilet. That my toilet's clog easy. I don't want to talk about it. Um, dude, the creamy jalapeno sauce on the side, you gotta get it on the side.

SPEAKER_00

So it's fire, good on everything.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, it's very good.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. And I got I got the inn with my Taco Bell over here. They only charge me 65 cents when it's supposed to be like 85.

SPEAKER_01

What the hell? Telling you what? Telling you what. What kind of divine authority are we talking about here? Stake your claim or something, yeah. Questionable uh spirituality on that one. Listen, yeah, is that like a 15-year thing? How many years you got now?

SPEAKER_00

Their way that's their way of being service to to the fellow man 10 cents per five years, I guess.

SPEAKER_01

20 cents, 20 cents. I mean, my god. I remember when that shit was 10 cents. Not that no, not that.

SPEAKER_00

I remember when it was free when they would just give you a side of it without charging you for it. Dude, yeah. Seriously. That's so little. If you order the chicken quesadilla, which is what it comes on, and you asked for an extra side, they would have just given it to you. Inflation, dudes.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you know, not to completely go off topic, but that's too late. On on shit that's like I can remember when this cost this type deal, dude. We went out because you know, we got a growing kid here, he's playing baseball. Well, it just so happens that this is gonna be the fucking reset year where he he needs all new stuff. Uh when when did they decide that baseball bats should be $400? That's crazy. It's a fucking aluminum bat. It's $400. Play it again, sports, baby. Dude, that's where I'm going tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03

No, so I got I got both you beat on this one, man. I so I had the same thing with Maya and her bats. Sideline swap. Sideline swap. You can buy used athletic gear from like college players and normal players and stuff, but not like crap stuff. Like I bought Maya's bat that's $360 for $90. Thing hits like a champion. It's it's all used gear and it's awesome. Because I'm not spending uh until my kids like 13, I'm not spending that.

SPEAKER_02

Here's the thing is like, so we went to we went to a specialized baseball store. But that's what I'm saying. We went to a like a specialized like just baseball, softball stuff only and we went to dicks and both of the places. It's just like, dude, this is the child section. This is a 30 this is a size 30 bat. It's for a child. How can you justify spending 300 400? They're a kid, you know. It was it was just gloves were 300 bucks.

SPEAKER_00

Like I'll never forget growing up, my mom was dating a guy at one point, and he bought me. Remember, do you guys remember the connection bats? Connection? Yeah, they were like the back in when I was like 13, they were like the huge name brand, like everybody wanted them. And he bought me one of those, and I was like, Oh, mom, you gotta marry this guy. He's like the greatest guy in the world. He totally scored points, totally scored some points. But guys, I got breaking news. Send it. Your boy shot even par today.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that's awesome, bro. Good job. First round ever.

SPEAKER_00

Even par. Corey, that's a big fucking deal. That's like bowling. Yeah, that's maybe not quite bowling a 300 because that's like perfect, but it's like bowling like a fucking 290.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's basically professional golfer level. Yeah, I mean, people that are normal golfers would never even come close to that, Corey.

SPEAKER_00

I was on it. Even par.

SPEAKER_01

Do you have an endorsement yet?

SPEAKER_00

No, no. You should you should seek one. We're getting the word out, though. It was a it was a it was a cool thing. It was one of those things like I knew it was coming. I knew I was I obviously I know how I'm playing throughout the round, but like I didn't say a word to anybody. I just kept it to myself. And and everybody knew it's like a no-hitter. That's exactly right. And finally on the on the 17th T-Box, I was with my dad. Actually, we had two groups. We had a bunch of people from our recovery group, Corey, and my dad, and and a few other people. We had two groups, and we were in the the the lead group, and I said to my dad on the set, I said, Dad, I can't be afraid of this. I need to speak it into existence. I'm not gonna try to hide it. But I was like, I'm even par right now through 16 holes. And uh, and I proceeded to par 17 and 18. And I had to make two like knee knocker five foot par plots on both holes, too, because my nerve, my first putt, I left one I left short, next one I left long. I'm like my nerves were going. It was a huge deal, and I knocked it in. It was it was cool, it was a fun, it was a all right, it was a fun thing.

SPEAKER_01

Listen, I don't know if we should spend a whole lot of time on this, but break this down to me quickly. Does that just mean that means so every hole has a par, right? Correct. Is that right?

SPEAKER_03

And that's how many regulations should be able to get it in.

SPEAKER_01

How many, yeah. Okay, yeah. So that means that you did like the the uh it's the same way it works in putt-putt, brother.

SPEAKER_02

It's like so if if it's a par four, you gotta sync it in four shots or less.

SPEAKER_00

Got it. And less is obviously better, but like that's really hard to do, less all the time. So like just doing again, it's like shooting, it's like bowling a 290. It's like it's like being really close to you know that perfect game. The thing with golf though is you can always go lower and lower and lower, but like um, it was anyways. It was it was a a historic day for me on the golf. It's a big deal. Yeah, it's a big freaking deal. That's good.

unknown

That's good.

SPEAKER_00

All right, I got what do you got? Anything else? Anyone got anything else you want to touch on? Touch on sports real quick. Yeah, go fire.

SPEAKER_01

Go fire one last night. I I swear to this is gonna be a deep run, guys. You heard it here first. I'm not saying we're gonna go win the cup or nothing. It's gonna be a deep run. I did not expect to lose this series. They're just they're just great. They're uh they're on fire. And the the damn rookie Martone is just God, he's gonna. My dad said before the playoffs started, he goes, I don't know if the rookie's ready for the playoffs. And I said, Yeah, he is. And then he scored a goal last night. It's a great goal, great shot. And I texted my dad, I said the the rookie's ready.

SPEAKER_03

So I'm excited. I'm excited. They got nothing to lose, bro. You know what I mean? The rookie's not I mean, they're not supposed to even be there. You know what I mean? Like they got nothing to lose. Got hot at the right time. Yeah, and got a little bit of help.

SPEAKER_01

A little bit of help getting them.

SPEAKER_03

You got nothing to lose, you ain't supposed to win. I mean, those are the scariest teams ever. The underdog. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Hunger, every dog run faster. Touch on you want to touch on the calves real quick? I mean, there's I guess not really much to touch on.

SPEAKER_02

They won, they beat the brakes off the raptors.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I'll tell you what, uh, uh, spoiler alert for anybody who hasn't watched, but uh, Magic just upset the Pistons. I know it's game one, but hey, uh whoever comes out of that round, I'm not even worried about it.

SPEAKER_03

Is this that true that the Pistons have not won a home playoff game since 2008? Yeah, probably check out. That's insane. Yeah, that's crazy. And they've been good, man.

SPEAKER_00

You know what I mean? Like that's that's um they they've been good. They really haven't been that well, that's not true. You're right.

SPEAKER_02

They they were decent in like the mid the teens of the 2000s, but but when you when they were going up against uh they were either getting um I mean anybody like they were getting the LeBron Miami years or LeBron Cleveland years where it was just that they took the east every year, but not one game, not a home game.

SPEAKER_03

That seems I mean not one game, like that's kind of seems like because you know, NBA they take nights off whenever they want. Like that's that just seems I hate that. Not in the playoffs, though. Not in the playoffs. Nope. Uh they uh I wouldn't say that. I mean, it's not not for the same not for the same. If they're up 3-0, they ain't playing 100%. That's true. Okay, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_04

Good point.

SPEAKER_03

I hey, I want to give one to uh because I do not like him, so I feel like I should give him a shout out, Mr. LeBron James, last night, without Luca to take the move. Yeah, I know I I got it.

SPEAKER_00

You're playing you're playing a Kevin Durant less Houston Rockets.

SPEAKER_02

He's 41 years old. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly. You want from this? Yeah, if you saw the shot like that. I want him to win a Super Bowl like Tom Brady did. That's really easy.

SPEAKER_03

His highlights, man, watching him make those shots and stuff at that age. It was just, and he was just bullying them dudes down low. I don't know. It was pretty impressive to me. And I and that takes a lot for me to say that.

SPEAKER_00

Congratulations. You're gonna get bounced in the second round again.

SPEAKER_02

They might get bounced in the first, to be honest. They might get bounced in the first.

SPEAKER_00

If we're gonna come back, I guess he's got a knee thing going on. He didn't play last night for the Rockets. Yeah, they did beat him pretty handedly. I'll give them that. They beat him pretty handedly. Yeah, but I'll tell you who had a big not uh not to get into who had a big game for them was DeAndre Ayton. Had a double-double. That was that was the deciding factor. If he could have a good game, they had a really good chance to win. So, anyways, you know what? Stay tuned, ladies and gentlemen. We're gonna have some uh NBA content coming to our YouTube channel. Uh Corey's gonna lead that discussion for us. Um, all about the NBA, all about the NBA.

SPEAKER_01

So at your own risk, buddy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, we are the USs, Corey. We are the Uses, not the. We are canceled after that episode. Nah. After what? The NBA or the Uses versus the Thems. That one too. Um, all right. Tonight, we're gonna delve down uh a bit of a topic that we've only touched on uh like here and there, um, the place that religion may or may not have in the rooms of recovery, or even more importantly, how religion has possibly shaped us either growing up when we were getting sober or or in current day times. We want to talk about that. Um, I do think that we can have an intelligent conversation on this. I think it's it's it applies in a lot of a lot of ways. It may not be for everybody, but I think once this discussion plays out, our listeners will really kind of understand like the goal behind this conversation. So I want to start real quick. I mean, Greg, you are our cult leader, so if I'm gonna start with you naturally, um the big ginger me. The big ginger. No, um, I want to start real quick, go around the horn real quick, and just answer a simple question. Were each of us raised in any kind of religion? Greg, were you raised in any kind of religion?

SPEAKER_02

Uh yes, I mean it wasn't um strict by any means. It started off like uh an Irish Catholic kind of thing. That was probably the more strict of it, and then yeah, just just more so um in in Christian church uh throughout my early childhood. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Dan, what about you? Yep. Uh Catholic, C C D, Communion, Confirmation, the whole nine yards. The whole nine yards church every Sunday, all the all that jazz.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, same here. I was Roman Catholic, same thing, all of it, confirmation, baptism, first Eucharist. I can still remember it in my head. Um, I can remember counting the ceiling tiles in church on Sundays. I just couldn't wait to get back to the neighborhood to play with my friends. Um, Corey, what about you? A lot of Catholics on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01

I didn't know that. Um kind of, but no. I my when I was when I was a kid, my mother was studying with Jehovah's Witnesses there for a little bit. Like they would come to the house.

SPEAKER_00

Is that a true story? You said that the other day. I didn't know if you were BSN or not.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah? Oh yeah. They uh they would come to the house. They were very nice, and I still remember the one's name. And uh they they would just do a Bible study with my mom and give them a shout-out, man. I well the one I fucking I haven't seen them in twenty-five years, but um the one's name was Sarah, I know that, but um yeah, but they would come to the house and do Bible studies or whatever and I'd hang out, and so like no, not not very organized by any means, but um but I had a good But it was there it was there and I had an idea of the afterlife and stuff like that from a young age. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Alright, good, okay. Um Corey, is religion or belonging to a church necessary for sobriety? Um no. Okay, no. Can you you can you can elaborate now? This is the the the conversation piece of it. Why not? Oh, I'm supposed to keep talking. Okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_01

Um Yeah, no, of course not. At least at least the way that uh you know we all stepped into recovery. Um you know I do think though that people I do believe that an alcoholic or a drug addict could stumble into church and develop a relationship with God and solve the drink problem. Depending on the action that they put in. You know what I mean? I don't think that you're just gonna get sober by going to church every Sunday and leaving it at that. Um I don't think you're gonna be happy like that. I don't think anybody is. But I think if um just like we do, if we're applied what if that person has applied has applied what they are taught in their religion, I think there's a s pretty significant shot at um a drug addict getting sober that way. I do. Uh that didn't happen for me. I didn't try that route or anything, and and what I needed is what what happened, and I stepped into a recovery community that was about spirituality rather than religion. And I was kinda not like violently against organized religion, but like I was not gonna be one of those that went to church to solve the drink problem. Um it's just not where I was at. Um and that is kind of just going to church, and every now and again I dabble with the idea of getting involved in some capacity. Um they were calling for musicians a few months ago and I thought about it. And uh maybe one day, but no. I think uh for a drug addict like me, spirituality and a connection with a power greater than myself is all that's kind of um necessary.

SPEAKER_00

Dan, I kicked that to you. Do you do you feel that belonging to a church or religion is necessary for a person to get sober?

SPEAKER_03

I do not, but I do think, I mean, because I think, yeah, Corey, we did it too, right? You know, it's like uh about putting yourself in positive situations that in any in totality of getting a good job that can put you in a successful part, going to church where your fellow people that are also in sobriety and putting yourself in these situations to succeed. You know what I mean? For me, I know it 100% helped. Was it necessary? I do not think it was necessary, but a hundred percent helped because I went with my mentor, I went with the people that are around me in the rooms. It's like when I went to parties, I went with them, and it's like, you know, you you you it's like the the age saying the saying, right? You are who are who is around you, you know, and keeping that around you. And I like I said, I don't think it's necessary, but you know, it can spark something, you know, within you know, but God and all that stuff, if you have an underlying, you know, Catholic and all this stuff, how you were raised and all that jazz. But I think it's just more about positive situations. You know, I mean, we went to church and we all hung out and we listened to this, and then we all got breakfast afterwards, and those situations and those environments start making me feel comfortable in my own skin, and it kind of tied it together of the God and the faith and the belief, you know, going to church and doing all that stuff. Uh like I said, I I I think if I just hung out with those people and I kept doing the same thing, it still would have you know manifested the same way. It was just part of what my journey was.

SPEAKER_00

So, like for example, you you said you went you went to to meetings, you went to church, you went to parties, you went to other it was almost more of like a community-based thing. Like it was you were with good, solid people trying to live a good life. You take the church part out of it, even and add, you know, go into freaking salsa dancing classes or something. It was that community part, yeah. He did those two.

SPEAKER_03

He did 100% make it us, yeah, us us stuff.

SPEAKER_00

We are the uses. Yeah, we are the uses. Greg, I I changed that question just a little bit to you. Is religion or belonging to a church not only for sobriety, but necessary for spiritual growth? No, can you grow spiritually? Is is the only way you can grow spiritually by belonging to a religious denomination?

SPEAKER_02

No, uh, definitely not. There's plenty of people out there that are highly spiritual, spiritually enlightened, um, and don't darken the doors of a church, don't belong to a religion, that kind of stuff. Um, from my viewpoint, I think that um not only spiritual growth, but both uh that and sobriety, I think we can all agree that there's varying degrees of that, right? Like in sobriety, you got you got guys that are white knuckling their way through it, you got uh people that are you know maybe kind of not really on the beam, but still not, you know, partaking. Um, you know, you've you've got the the old adage of the boy whistling in the dark and and and all that, and then there are those of us who are living, you know, lives that are you know rocketed, uh as we would say, uh, from where they used to be. So I think that's um it's it is all about what you are doing on the daily basis um to strengthen that stuff in your life. I will say this, um, having been going to church a lot more lately, I don't ever leave there feeling worse than I did walking in, you know. And um while I wouldn't call myself like a part of that church, um, I do enjoy going. I really enjoy listening to the pastor, um, and and the way that he he breaks things down and stuff like that. He's he's got a very, very uh worldly approach um to him. And um, you know, I think that if you're if you're seeking um spiritual growth, I would say what's what's the harm in it, you know. Um if if if you're if you are feeling that you know, hey, maybe I should or maybe I should explore this different avenue or read this different book or whatever. It's it's like what's the harm in in at least giving it a shot? I think a lot of times, um, you know, internally we kind of we kind of bulk at that kind of stuff, but then you go and it's like, oh wow, like yeah, these these people are uh they're really living a happy life and a happy existence, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I uh so uh so that was gonna my next quick question was gonna be uh do any of us actually belong to any churches? And and I think uh Corey and Greg, you guys fairly regularly have been attending church recently, right? Or at least for a whatever time, right? Um Dan, what about you? Do you attend? Yeah, I don't I don't I don't either. I don't either. I think so, and I know um and I'm gonna shout Dan out because he was he was the lone dissenter on this topic, but for good reason. And I and I think you're gonna trigger me. Yeah, no, I appreciate I appreciated your the other side of the argument, and and and I had been trying to get this topic for a few weeks because I do think that there is a large contingent, not all, but a large contingent of people that come into the rooms of recovery that think, oh, I have to go back to church or I have to be religious or part of a church in order to stay sober. And and I and I and we all just said it, like I don't believe that's true. And I I had that experience when I was in the halfway house just a couple months sober. I had this thought, like, oh, well, I'm changing, I'm I'm supposed to be changing everything else about my life. I probably should go back to church. It was something that I felt that I should be doing, and I started going to a Catholic church near my halfway house, and I think I went for like three or four weeks, and it was like miserable, and it wasn't the church, the church was wonderful, I'm sure. It was a beautiful structure. I couldn't pay attention. Now, chalk that up to me being a month or two sober, that could have been part of it for sure, but I remember distinctly feeling like I felt obligated to be there, and I didn't think God wanted me to feel obligated. Now, maybe that's a cop out to some people, like you go and you just go, but I've never felt obligated to be at a recovery group, you know, for the most part. I mean, there don't get me wrong, there have been some times getting off when I used to work late, and it's like, oh, I'm tired, but I but for really and truly, I enjoy going to my recovery groups. I enjoy going to my home group. I enjoy, I enjoyed very much last night what we did, Corey, taking those two new guys and and traveling a little bit and going, it's a new experience. It was like a sobriety adventure. So I had that feeling of obligation. I don't think that's the way you know God wants me to be. And I would assume for Corey and Greg, like you guys don't feel obligated to be there because it is now something at this stage in your life you want to be, like you want to be going. You enjoy going. Like Greg, you said, I don't you never feel worse when you leave there, right?

SPEAKER_02

No. And I I will say this. Um, you know, some of it is like like Peyton has showed some interest in going, and and I feel very much in that regard, the same way that my mom was with me, where it was like, we're not gonna force you to go to church. If you don't want to go to church, you don't have to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, they forced me back in the day.

SPEAKER_02

But but the thing was is like it was very much like she was like, you decide, you decide for yourself if this is something that you want in your life, yeah. Um, and she never forced the issue with me. And so, um, but he's a he's been expressed in some interest. But you know, one thing I'll say, and I was I was talking to Lauren about this the other night, was that like, and I don't know if Corey, if you can go along with me on this one, and maybe it makes me a a bad Christian, I don't know, or or you know, whatever you want to say.

SPEAKER_00

That's part of the dogma though, that I want to, that's the part of what I wanted to talk about, like like poo-poo that stuff, man, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Well, because like I will tell you this, I feel the presence of God far more when I am in the rooms of recovery with a whole bunch of broken people than I do when I'm in a church. And it's just I I don't know what it is. It's and it's not like I sit in church and I look down on these people for for their beliefs or when they're you know waving their hands and and singing the singing the songs and everything like that, you know. Um I'd be lying if I if I said that, you know, sometimes I don't chuckle at this and chuckle at that, but I I do that in the rooms of recovery too, you know. Um but I I feel I feel God with me when I'm with those, you know, sick and suffering people far more than I do when I'm in church. And it you it doesn't mean that I I hate going and I refuse to go. I I'll still go, you know. Um, but it's just it's not the same for me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I I agree. And uh I said well, a few years ago when we were attending church pretty often, um, I ended up coming to that conclusion for myself. I literally said to myself, I'd rather be in like a recovery group at 9 a.m. on a Sunday morning, even though I don't do that shit either. But um But I'd rather be doing that with a bunch of broken drunks that that I c that I could help or that that are speaking my language or whatever, than uh than be a church. And that was my that was my attitude back then and um and it's it's changed today, but I still agree with you like there is a special authenticity of being in a room full of drunks and or drug addicts um for somebody like me.

SPEAKER_00

Well I think it's uh and I think that could just be as simple as when we're in a recovery group, we are with people and we all have a shared common peril, right? We all are you know a shared misery, a shared, hopefully, solution. And in the rooms of church, not everyone's like us in terms of that, right? Not everyone in church is suffering from drug addiction or alcoholism and has you know the same thing. And I just think I think it really can be, you know, that simple.

SPEAKER_01

Um I will I will say, Sean, you said something, you said something about like uh being in church and like uh what whatever you said about wanting to get out of there or you felt obligated, you felt obligated or whatever. This is where my experience has been different, and I'm and it's not like poking at any particular religion or sect or whatever, but um it helps that there's an F in rock band at my church, like it's very entertaining.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's not it's not the church me and Sean grew up with.

SPEAKER_01

No, yeah, far from and like that's and it's funny because I don't know much about the Catholic religion other than like I I don't I don't know a whole lot, like I don't know the Hail Mary, so I don't know all that. Um mostly I know it's the Lord's Prayer, and that's for an entirely different reason. But um I do think the traditions seem pretty cool, like the little like the ritual of the whole like when I've been to mass for like a funeral or a wedding or whatever, that all seems kind of cool. I don't want to sit through that every Sunday. That's yeah, no, that's just my thing. But um but yeah, so I do I do like how uh entertaining and like energetic church I go to is, and that that kind of helps me personally.

SPEAKER_00

So okay, yeah, and I agree with that. So what the next question what works in organized religion that could help us with sobriety or not help us in sobriety? So like the where I net out on this is is you know, I grew up, I grew I was very fortunate. I grew up with a very good outlook on Catholicism. My mom is is a very devout Catholic. I've talked about it on this podcast before. She's a wonderful, wonderful woman. I never had any issue with Catholicism growing up, just I simply didn't want to go as a uh a teenage kid who just wanted to go get high, you know what I mean? But like, but I never had a bad idea of God planted in my head, the mean, vengeful, like it was a loving, all-powerful, you know, comforting God, all that stuff. So, like, what what does work in organized religion? Because I think it I do think it has a place for a lot of people. And it leads me into the next question of you know, unfortunately, we see so many people get sober in the rooms of recovery and and build a good life and have solid foundational sobriety, and then they start going to church, whether it's early on in their sobriety or later on, and like a lot of them, they kind of stop doing recovery and they focus solely on church. And I and I I don't see many of those cases be successful long term. I'm not saying they're not, I'm not saying they don't. Like Corey said in the beginning, like you could potentially get sober that way. But even these people, it's like, oh, I built this life, this recovery program, everything worked so great, cool. Let me stop doing it and now just focus on that. So I guess Dan, the question is like, what's the danger in that? You know, can we outgrow the need for our recovery programs? What happens when we do feel like we've quote outgrown it and we just go the church route?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean, to me, man, it it sounds like what like what we were talking about before is like um what I was talking about before is you know, don't go to church alone. You know what I mean? Don't don't your first don't go to church alone. That I mean, that's that's that's one thing that like you know, why I dissented on it too, is because like, you know, people will try that experience on their own and you may never see them again. You know what I mean? Like that the idea of God may be squashed forever, you know, and that that's one thing for me that like hits like super hard and scares me about that is that like why it's so important to me that like it was part of my group of people that I went with, you know, just you guys just said it to the T. We feel more comfortable in a room full of drunks than a full, you know, uh in that setting. So bring those people to the same setting, and then you will have a better experience. You know, that's like I I but I feel also that like depending on what you're going to get out of it, if you're able to take the uh obligation out of your head, you know what I mean? And so like the the bad stuff that you you've heard about it, or you know, what's the the things you're going in there with, the set of rules to live by, you know, that's very important. And things like uh lying, like stuff, you know what I mean? I feel like there's another set of living arrangements that you can put in your head to live a certain way that keeps that what we learn in recovery rooms and in the recovery world, you know, it kind of keeps that in line and in tow if you can get the noise out of your head that that you have going in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Greg, what about you? What what works in organized religion that could help us with sobriety? And what happens when we quote, outgrow uh the rooms of recovery and you know, people solely focus on the religious thing?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I I certainly think that obviously um the Bible um works pretty well in organized religion and could help a lot in uh in in sobriety. I mean, like if if you go off of the type of recovery that that we come from, you know, our literature, a lot of it um has has um at least stolen. Yeah, roots from the Bible, you know. Um, but you can you can find um good stuff in the Bible the same way as you could with the the Quran, the the the teachings of Buddha and Zen Buddhism and and all that kind of stuff. All that literature has merit and it all has um some great, great lessons in there. Um that doesn't mean you need to know by heart, that doesn't mean you need to pull every um every little piece from it. Um, but I think that there are some very good teachings in there, and I think that things that I have personally seen um in church that I think that we we could all as humans do a little bit better in, but certainly in sobriety are you know lessons of like, am I my brother's keeper? So so are we are we helping one another without you know um thought of of what it can do for us, you know, um things like that, you know, learning how to you know um face people with love instead of anger or self-seeking um kind of things, you know. The the the one thing I will say about you know the church that I go to, they do a ton of volunteer work, ton of volunteer stuff. Um, you know, they they just actually the parsonage that's that's you know right there with the pastor and his wife don't live there, they have their own home. They brought this woman from out of state who was like pregnant and being abused and like was in like a really, really bad situation, and they just went and they they got her they got her out of that situation and moved her here. I'm pretty sure she's not even using the same name right now, but like boom, there and then like the whole church just brought her all kinds of stuff uh for her for her unborn baby and and all kinds of stuff like that. So it's like but though that's just one little small example of of you know, and I think that it as far if if we're kind of going to translate that towards our sobriety, is like, yeah, because again, and kind of and to answer your second question there, can we outgrow our need for recovery programs? Like, yes, we can. I hope I don't because I've seen what happens when I do, or when I start to get that notion and that feeling, um, life turns pretty bad, pretty bad, pretty quick, you know. And and I think that with what what it is that we do, you know, I think that there's a couple pillars there that tell us like like that nothing short of having a trust and belief in your higher power, setting the stuff wrong that you are setting the stuff right that you do wrong immediately, and and certainly helping another sick and suffering alcoholic or addict are are gonna be what what leads you to permanent sobriety. And and I think that yeah, once we do pull away from that and start, oh well, I don't really need to do that anymore. I can just kind of go to church, or I can just kind of volunteer at the soup kitchen, or maybe I can just be nice to people, and that's all I need to do, and and and you know that's that's what we as addicts and alcoholics do is we're constantly we backtrack, backtrack, backtrack, and then boom, next thing you know, we all know where it leads.

SPEAKER_03

It's a crazy validation that people use all the time. Oh, but I go to church. You know what I mean? Uh people use that all the time, man. You know, and it's like a cop out almost, man. Exactly. Exactly. You know what I mean? That's like it's literally like, oh no, no, no. Yeah, I go to church every Sunday. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00

It's like it's like it's really just like we we are called, and I, you know, you guys know I feel strongly about this, and I know that to each their own, and everybody has, but like we are called to help the next sick and suffering alcoholic. And yes, you can find them in church and like be of service to them as well. But like there, it's it's like there's a a very clear-cut, uh just endless pool of alcoholic and drug addictive misery that we come across in our rooms of recovery where we can be of maximum service and benefit to those people. And if and for me to say, I'm not gonna do that anymore, and I'm only gonna do this over here, I think it's like a uh a dereliction of duty. I know that's a strong term and all that stuff, but I really do. I I tell guys all the time that I mentor and that I work with, you want to start going to church and going and go the religious route, that's fine. Make sure that it is supplementary to your recovery work, make sure that it is in conjunction with the work you're doing in recovery. Because guess what, brother? This is what you did to get sober. This is what saved your life, right? Because, like Corey said, yes, you can go, people can go to the rooms of or go to churches and get sober that way. But let's be honest, most of us don't. Most of us have tried that. How many times have we heard that? Oh, I did that religious and I church, and I went to you know, the faith farm and those kind of places, and like it didn't work, and I got drunk again. For most of us, the recovery programs we in uh habitate are the last stop on the block. So, like, why and you know, and so and I'm super passionate about that, obviously. So I I I digress a little bit. Uh Corey, what happens when we feel like we outgrow our need for our recovery programs? Um what happens when we think we've outgrown it? Yeah, like when we when we you know, same question for the other guys. Like when we think, oh, I'm I'm good, I got this relationship with God now. And I, you know, usually it comes in the form of like, oh, and I got this good job, and I got like this family and like a girlfriend or whatever the case may be, and then you know, oh, we're gonna start going to church, and then like they just slowly start to fade away from recovery.

SPEAKER_01

I guess we've seen a few people.

SPEAKER_03

Um I've seen a lot go the church route, and we all kind of we all make a face or a sound Wednesday. Oh, Gerald's going the church route.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. We do that for a reason. I haven't seen Gerald in a while. What's oh yeah, he's just he's he's going to the church. He went the church route now, you know. And it's I guess what bothers me the most is a lot of times when that happens, there's a um there's a spoken or unspoken disdain for the recovery program, and it's like the church route, it's almost like a better than like oh I'm see.

SPEAKER_01

I feel I feel like we can get that way too about the church route. You know, I don't disagree. I don't disagree. I I want to be the guy that goes I I'm not often the guy that is not judgmental, and but I would like to be the guy that goes, oh, they're doing the church thing. Good for them. I hope it works out, and like truly mean it. Now, yes, most of the time I'm gonna go Yeah, really But like you know, I ideally I would like to go think the other way and be like, oh good for them, like hope that works out. And because I do think it's possible. Again, like you said, does it happen often? No. And but also do people walk into the rooms of recovery often and stay? Often, no. Good point. No. It very I mean the the stats used to be better, we know that. Yeah, um does that mean does that speak to the recovery program itself? No. Um there's probably a lot of factors that go into it, uh, and the world's changed a lot. But um, I guess to the to the question uh about outgrowing, like yeah, I I I agree. I agree that uh from for me personally too, that any amount that I get involved in church, it's going to be in addition to what I do. Uh I found a foundation in what we do here. I found the foundation in helping other alcoholics and addicts. Um I think that's my calling, purpose, and or one of them. And uh it's it's been working. It's been working for 10 years. And and every time like I drift away, I do it again, and it works again. So it's like it's got a proven track record, and but I do like I enjoy church, and I do think that like there's a lot of opportunities um for service in church, like outside of uh alcoholic work, and I think that's valuable, but again, I think that we gotta we gotta be helping other alcoholics.

SPEAKER_00

And Corey, I would agree with that. There is a lot of opportunity for service and volunteer work outside of what we do in recovery. Yep. But the people that we see that go that route, they often do not get involved in that level of service work in their church. No, they go to church once a week, and that becomes it, and it becomes a complacency thing. And again, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01

It's if it's also oh go ahead. If the if these and that's my point, like is it possible to go to church and get sober? Yes, but you probably have to still apply the principles in your life and give of yourself the same way you do in recovery that we all share. It's it's probably very parallel, yeah if if done like that. But are you just gonna go to church once a week and stay sober? Probably not.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think it's I think it's uh I mean no, I mean most of the time I think it's ego-based that I don't need this other stuff. Like I just got this, I'll go here once a week.

SPEAKER_01

I really graduating the Christianity.

SPEAKER_03

I think it's the easier, softer way for a lot of people. Exactly. Exactly, man. It's like I got it's basically I got this without going full, I got this.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, dude, Greg, Greg, this happened. I'm gonna tell your story for a moment.

SPEAKER_02

Tell it, brother.

SPEAKER_01

We'll leave it, we'll leave the nameless, but somebody, I believe it was you that told me this that somebody that had many, many, many years sober walked up to you after a speaking engagement at a recovery group one time, handed you a business card, and said, Here, if you want the real solution, come to my church on Sunday. Am I right about that? Didn't that happen? You are, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That happened here in Florida.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Do I know this guy?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Is it who I'm thinking of?

SPEAKER_01

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

Probably.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe a prominent figure over in Stewart.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I can't go that far.

SPEAKER_00

I can't go to that guy's church. I can't do it. And I and I actually respect and admire him in the rooms of recovery. I can't go to his church. Yeah, well. So here's a couple things, because I I did some research on this. I I actually, this is a fascinating topic to me because I was taught, um, I there was a couple um a few people that I met in the rooms of recovery that were of the Native American way of life, indigenous cultures, and they've taught me just as much. I don't want to say more because that's then I'm comparing. I've learned a lot from them. You know, there was there was uh you know, Tattoo Chris, shout out to Chris McKevitt, who unfortunately, you know, passed away years ago. And long story, but there was a few other people. There's this there's this guy named uh his name is Breeze. Uh I don't know if that's his first name, last name, middle name, native name, whatever it is, but like he's kind of shot out of a canon, but he's been sober around a long time. Like he's taught me a lot. You know, my my um, you know, Papa Ron's son, um, you know, Butch, him and his uh at the time wife, Elise, like they were into a lot of native Americans. Like I learned a lot from them. So like I and I took some classes in college on theology and religions, and it was fascinating, like truly, truly fascinating. Um, and did nothing but pique my interest and make me want to seek more, which I think is kind of the whole point of it all, right? Is like let us continue to seek, have a new experience, find new knowledge, learn how to put that knowledge into practical application, right? So it's not just self-knowledge, but a couple, I want to read just a couple terms, like a couple kind of phrases that I think sum up this conversation and what we're all kind of after in rooms of recovery. So uh religion is often described as a collective map, while spirituality is an individual journey, right? Like there's a map, there's like religion has guidelines, and this is what you do, and this is what you don't do. And and if you're outside of this box, you're not part. Let's let's be honest. If you're Danny, Catholicism, right? If you don't, if you're not Catholic this way, you can't squeeze it. Yeah, let's go, let's be honest, right? Yeah, uh, this goes along with it. The walls of religion versus the horizon of spirituality. That that one speaks to me like there are very much again. This is this is what you do, this is the steps, this is it. Um religion is community, right? And recovery is community, but religion is community and institution versus spirituality is individual and inner self, right? I think there is a um uh and the one thing I will say about religion is it is more of church, it is more of a we, right? It's a we, our church, our community, and and in spirituality, it is very singular, which I think is in our recovery, it is very much we and community. So I think that's where there is a parallel between religion and church and our recovery. Um, even though there is a component of self and and I and you know, all that stuff. Um religion, sacred text and traditions versus personal experience and intuition and spirituality. I like that one. And then uh, you know, organized rituals and laws versus the fluid and evolving practices of one's spiritual journey. Um, and then possibly my favorite one religion is salvation, spiritual, spirituality is enlightenment. And I I think those they kind of those those terms all kind of um they kind of speak for themselves, you know what I mean? Uh and I again I want to make it very clear. I I like I meditated for like two weeks to the gospel of Matthew, like on an audiobook. So I'm not opposed to seeking in religious circles. I just listened to a uh a string of C.S. Lewis religious kind of talks that he has, like, and they're phenomenal, right? They're phenomenal, really and truly, very, very powerful stuff. The the goal for me is to continue to seek and continue to learn and continue to grow. And you guys have kind of all said it, like the the and this is probably unfair to some extent because I know there are religious people that would say they can expand their spiritual and religious horizons by doing the exact same thing, but I do feel that the recovery programs we have and what we've been taught, what we've been told to seek, it's kind of like it's an unlimited, you know, pool to pick from. So let's go ahead. Last, yeah, I want to want you guys to be able to say a few words before we wrap up. Go ahead, Greg.

SPEAKER_02

Well, uh, yeah, I just think that um, you know, to to sum it up quickly, I think the the issues, I'll keep it on myself. The issues that I've always had with religion, um and and where what we've done in in the rooms of recovery and with spirituality have been vastly different for me is you know, number one, we're not we're not killing each other uh over who got sober how, you know, or the different fellowships of recovery, whereas you know, we're not we're not fighting holy wars over that point for thousands of years and and this and that. But even more on on a not so we know uh on a not so you know, I guess extreme level, but um, you know if if if somebody that lives halfway around the world uh is is born and raised into a certain religion and reads a certain text, and they believe that that their their God is the god, and that's who they tap into, and we believe this over here is like who are we to tell them that they're wrong and vice versa, right? And I think that that's one thing that I th I I have always loved about recovery and um how we came up is that it's we're free to choose a god of our own understanding, and and the more and more I've grown with that, I've grown to understand that it's all one power that we're all tapping into, however it is that we're going about tapping into it. Um certainly. And and then yeah, Corey kind of touched on it earlier, but like um, you know, the the the you know uh the spiritual life is not a theory, we have to live it, and that and that means more than just one hour a week, you know. And I think that um that that that's something that kind of gets uh a lot of people um as far as religion is concerned. So um that's my piece anyways.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Danny P closing thoughts on any of this?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean it's just uh it's a slippery slope, man. And I think it's something that if we're if we're talking about you know, religion to recovery, you know, that's what like this is about, and not just religion on its own. It's something that you should talk to your mentor or talk to other people about before you make the decision to go.

SPEAKER_00

Real quick, and and I mean this in with all sincerity. I I do I if you don't mind, I'd like you to explain why do you think this topic was such a slippery slope? Because you expressed that in our like days beforehand. I genuinely want to know. I I I think it'd be good for the listeners to kind of know why you feel that way.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and and more it's more based towards newcomers, you know what I mean. So like a newcomer that uh, you know, here's this guy got you know sober of uh of going to church and doing all this stuff, and it's more about that becoming a standard of that's what I'm going to do. And then I mean, dude, I have tangible evidence of the people have gone the quote church route, and most of them are I wish no, all of them are not sober, you know. Two of them are in jail, you know, one of them's dead, you know, and I just like the tangible evidence of what happened. We can say that's obviously not going to happen all the time. And I hope I wish you the best. But the tangible evidence that I have in my life of people that have done that, you know, that's why it's something like I said, you should not go it alone early on and stuff like that. Or kind of an uh anomaly to speak of that right now. I'm speaking more towards the newcomer rather than someone that's got 10 years and stuff like that, and a solid foundation has done the work and all that jazz. But that that's my biggest thing is I always think of the newcomer man and and like things that can, you know, obviously it's not, you know, something that's gonna like the wheels are already in motion, but that's the only thing I think of is that if if you go in and that's going to be your replacement on your own and make that decision, I don't think it's a decision you're ready to make on your own. Got it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think that's a very good point. I think it's a very good point. Corey. Hey, hey man. You get the last word, sir. Good. I think oh my god, I almost made a joke, Sean.

SPEAKER_01

And why not? Make a joke. Nobody would get it except for you and I. Okay. I can't see okay. Sorry. Um I so I think that wasn't worse right there at all. Nothing, go ahead, I'm sorry. I the you guys should have fired me a long time ago. I'm power washing. What happens when I power wash? I think uh I think we're all kinda go into the same thing, you know what I mean? I think we all kind of worship the same thing or what have you. Seek the same thing. We call it we call it different things, you know what I mean? And uh even though like like Greg said, like somehow humans take that and start wars over it. So that's that's interesting. We can pretty much fuck up a free lunch us human beings, but um I like what uh Chris McKinnall brought up in in our episodes with him, the Hindu proverb. Uh I'm gonna read it. There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading to the same place, so it doesn't mat matter which path you take. The only person wasting time is the one who runs around the mountain telling everyone that his or her path is wrong. I like that. I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_00

Very accurate. That's good. So that's a good stuff. That's a that's see now, Corey. That's a wood, that's a good way to end it right there. That was good. That was a dropper. John, I'm more of a closer. Don't ruin it. Don't ruin it. Shh. That's where I was going. You are more of a closer, I agree.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh thank you guys. Thank you for this conversation. Thank you for uh getting vulnerable and talking about some uh potentially not sketchy things, but just stuff that, you know, makes some people bristle with antagonism. Why would we put it that way? Uh, shout out to our listeners. Please like, follow, and share on all socials at TrudgeReport Pod. Email us, TrudgeReportPod at yahoo.com. Send in your mailbag request for topics, questions, and comments to any of these handles. Remember, we are all here if anyone wants to talk about recovery and our experiences, or if you are struggling with some form of addiction. Thank you again to Janine and Stella Mix Podcast Management. Good night. God bless, and may you trudge the road of happy destiny. We will see everyone next week.