Ep. 131 - The Buddhist Way To Recovery: Dharma And The Zen Of Getting Sober.

Welcome back to this week's episode of Trudge Report. Thank you for supporting the show. We kick things off with the Great Florida versus Northeast chicken wing debate. The kids go back to school in Florida and just how much the world has changed since we were in school. Corey and Greg prepare for a trip to Philly to go see Foo Fighters with some other friends. 

This week we bring a little mini series of episodes where we take a deep dive into other brands and forms of recovery. There are different paths up to the same mountain top and this week we talk about the Buddhist style recovery and what it looks like compared to the path we know. We explore the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, mindfulness, craving, attachment, suffering, personal accountability, and the idea of changing our relationship with discomfort instead of escaping it. We talk honestly about where Buddhist recovery overlaps with our own experiences, where we have questions. We give a quick historical timeline and each of us discuss tenants of that style of recovery that we like and dislike and others that we are intrigued and fascinated by and would like to know more about. 

We will be doing other deep dives on different recovery organizations sporadically so stay tuned.

"The true refuge is not a place outside of us, nor is it a substance. The true refuge is the quiet space within your own awareness.". — Tara Brach

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Ladies and gentlemen, good evening and welcome to another episode of Trudge Report. We are a recovery-based podcast. My name is Sean, and I am your host, joined by my good friends and fellow Trudgers. Please remember to listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you may get your podcast. Our videos will be posted each week so you can watch episodes on YouTube and Facebook. But as always, please be sure to download on your listening platforms. Remember to like and subscribe on all social media outlets with the handle at Trudge Report Pod. This podcast is brought to you by Stella Mix Podcast Management. Gentlemen, good evening. Uh happy recording day, happy uh back to school eve over here in South Florida. Corey, uh, we'll start with you. The kids ready? You ready? Mom ready? Everybody ready?

SPEAKER_02 0:53

No, and in hindsight, um maybe not maybe we should reschedule podcast recording for not the night before school. It was okay though. It's I just didn't think about it, but yeah, but it's all right. They're in bed now, and I just I got it got a little tense there for a moment. Yeah, mine mine went to bed at about 8 52 this evening, um, and they were not tired at all. They were pumped up, so that's what I'm saying. And it's like, and then I was like trying to make wings, so now there's like wings out there. I mean, I now I gotta sit here with you guys and not eat wings. I mean, it's crazy. But is that boneless? Are they boneless? Not boneless. No, they're real because then there ain't wings. Because we'll black you out right now, dude. No, so listen, let me just say this. I probably bitched about this before. Sean, I this is probably gonna be a hot take for you. I don't know. But I think the I think the other guys might agree. Florida does not have good food. There's there's like it doesn't have good food. It has like a standard of like Florida food, like there's a Florida scale, and it's all below like the Northeast, at least. I I don't know about elsewhere, but and I don't know what it is, dude, but like I can't get good. I mean, like, you know, we get flanagans, and they're they're a different kind of like they do their own thing kind of uh with wings. Um Miller's is like okay. They're but they're probably like the best around.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

Uh for like the traditional if you're talking about like specifically like chicken wings, it's because they're bringing chickens football, is the bar culture up here, the you know, the spot where you just hey you go drink beers and pound wings at the bar while you're watching football. That's like a a staple in the north, man.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

It's like a rite of passage. Yeah, but like what is the deal? Like puberty and then drinking beers at the bar with wings.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

But why are the wings not like the wings up north are better for some reason? I don't know why. I don't know why the chickens are better. Like I can I can explain it with like bread stuff, right? Like we all know that like anything dough-related or bread is better in the northeast. They say it's the water.

SPEAKER_04 2:57

That's because the humidity. I think it's the water.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Well, the water, yeah, that's a different story. We know that. I would have to have northeast wings side by side with like my favorite wings from down here to have that to have that comparison. Because I don't I don't honestly know if it's true. I know you're saying it's true. Chinese to me never have to do is true.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Yeah, whatever I say is true. But um Chinese But dude, Chinese food, there's not good Chinese food in Florida, or at least in this area.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

I would say that I would say that we do have we do have good seafood down here.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

Excellent seafood.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

We do have very good seafood. That's fair. That's lobster excluded because main lobster is better. I'll I'll give you that. But seafood in general, fishes, certain seafood is very, you know, oysters, muscles.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

The the closer you get down towards like Miami, man, like the Cuban food is phenomenal if if you're gonna go that route.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

So real real quick, to that point. Is that a timeout? No Cuban D generation X of No Cuban food. I went and played golf with a bunch of my bunch of my buddies down in West Palm Beach on the island. Um, we've actually passed we it's it's a little small par three course near Mar-a-Lago, actually, um, on the really rich part. But we went back into town and had dinner at this place called Havana. It's just called Havana, Havana, Cuban cuisine.

SPEAKER_05 4:17

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

It was unbelievable. It was truly, truly spectacular food and cheap. Like cheap. For 20 bucks, I got a mountain of food, and it was delicious. Authentic Cuban food, Cuban waiters and waitresses, Cuban staff, Cuban coffee, Cuban desserts. Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

That's all well. This was my long way of saying that I truly I like making my own wings because they're pretty good. I got a good recipe from for the sauce.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Publix has good wings. Like, I'm not saying they're better than the Northeast, but Publix has better wings than most restaurants around here, I think.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Like, are you talking like hot wings? Like Buffalo wings?

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Yeah, like like breaded or non-breaded. Publix, you get the bag at the box of like 20 or whatever. I think they're delicious. And you know why? You know what I think their secret is? Is they're they're not like what gets me is when you have a huge drumstick that's so big it's like not necessarily even cooked all the way through, or it's like fatty on one side. Give me the flats, give me like a little bit skinnier wings. I know that might be blasphemy to Greg up there, but like I like a little smaller where it's where it's like done, well done through and through.

SPEAKER_05 5:32

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Anyway, I'm just bitching.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Um what else? What else happened? Kids good, kids go back to school tomorrow. Yeah, I it's yeah. Yeah, they do. They do. Um and it's fine. It's fine. Is that not a good thing? There, dude, there's there's you know, pros and cons to everything. It's like yes, quieter days, but we live in East Bumblefuck out here, and it's a 30-minute drive. Well, so we don't have to rehash that conversation. Well, um no, I think we should spend the next 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_04 6:15

They still go to school.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yeah, I would I would like my kids to have a good education and not be subjected to the St. Lucie uh school system. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or the recovery for that matter. But there it is. There it is. That was part of that.

SPEAKER_04 6:30

Let's not put the girl before the horse.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Hopefully they don't need that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder about Noah. But yeah, they're going back to school tomorrow. And but dude, here's the deal. I only got to deal with that drive for two days because then we're on our way to Philly, so I can beat the shit out of Greg. And have some real wings, maybe. I'm already my mouth is watering for the first cheesesteak, that's for sure. Yeah, it's gonna be a good trip. It's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Good stuff. Anything else going on, Corey? Anything else you want to share with the classroom?

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Um, I wish I I wish I had more. Okay. Alright. I'm sure you'll think of something. I'm just gonna stay here and drink my screwdriver.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

Dan, how are you? I'm good, man. Um, what did we do? I don't even know. I'm tired, exhausted. Uh softball work, getting ready for school, got my all the clothes and all that jazz. I'll order. When do they start up there? Uh Thursday. Thursday. Oh, so it's pretty good. Oh, they go back on the oh yeah, that's right. They do go back on a Thursday down there. Yeah, it's like a soft restaurant restaurant opening. You know what I mean? They do like a soft opening. Two days, it's crazy. They do a staggered too. They do a stagger where it's uh like at the high school, the freshmen go the first day and then all the kids go the second day. Oh wow. Like a soft liberal approach.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

I know that around here, I know that in Martin County, Florida, middle school kids had a half a day last Friday, or excuse me, the sixth graders, just the sixth graders. Yeah, the new say had a half a day last Friday, so they could, because it's like a brand new school for them, middle school, you know, and I think that's pretty smart. That's pretty cool. Which I'm I'm like, all of a sudden I was like, when our buddy Robert, because he's got a daughter going into sixth, he said that. I was like, oh my god, that's gonna be Sophia next year. Like, I can't believe it. Middle school. It's like I had a mo, guys, I had a moment. I was watching, what was I watching? Modern Family. I love Modern Family, the show. Yeah, and Sophia was on her her iPad next to me on the couch, and on the show, they said something about making out, and she kind of looked at me and did one of these, like, Daddy, that's what they said that. And I was like, Do you know, do you know what that means, Sophia? And she like looked at me, she's like, Yeah. I was like, tell me. And she was like, No, I don't want to. And I was like, No, no, no, tell me. And she was like embarrassed to tell me, but she did. She goes, Well, that means when you just kiss a lot, and I was like, Okay, that's that's that's true. That's that's what making out means. I don't have to, you know, um, you know, go into more detail in what it is, but it hit me. She's 10 years old, and I'm hoping, God please, I have a few more years, but like she's gonna start liking boys soon. And it it for the first time, I think, guys, like I've thought about it, but it like really hit me. And I would have told you that I'm gonna be like, it's cool, like God's in charge, like you know, she's gonna it's gonna be fine. We're gonna meet her where she is and be accepting of whatever. And for the first time, I was just like, Yeah, no, fuck that. I'm not no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not ready for that. So I had a moment, brief moment, but a moment.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Yeah, so you gotta you gotta just shoot everybody and then ask questions. Yeah, really.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Sorry, no, I'll just get I've got I got a lot of gun toting proud friends. I'll just get them to come over. I didn't mean to cut you. I didn't mean to cut you off though, Dan. How's anything else?

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Oh, you're good. Yeah, no, everything's good, man. Yeah, they do uh so they do this weird thing with camp, they end it early to get ready for after school care and stuff. Same here. Yeah, so we have three days where Maya's probably just gonna come to work with me or something like that, or I might put her in a softball camp. Um, but um, yeah, man. I mean, everything's good, yeah. Work. We went and seen Alyssa's dad today. That was pretty cool. We haven't seen him in like probably like three years, two, three years. Oh wow. Yeah, yeah. He's uh he's up in uh it's like 40 minutes away, which I mean, just with school and everything with our schedules, man. It was like it's been impossible. And uh he's just a good dude, so it was nice. We went up there, we saw Colin. Colin was there and uh the whole time. How's Colin doing? Yeah, he's doing good, man. He's doing real good. He's still in the roofing game and doing good. Um yeah, yeah, I think that's about it. So work's still going for good for Alyssa, and everyone's happy and healthy. Danny doesn't start till like before Labor Day, but he's got his first uh high school football practice this week on Thursday, so that's a big, a big moment in his life. He's super pumped for that.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Nice, very cool. Um for anybody who will watch this episode, we have lost Greg and uh I don't know where he is. Oh, he's coming back on now. Well he's dead. There he is. Mr. Phillips, can you hear us? I can.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Hey, next time just hit the pipe on screen. We don't care. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Corey is referencing a crack pipe, uh, not a tobacco pipe for anybody who may not understand his humor. Well, we're we're at we're at you, Greg. How are you? What's going on?

SPEAKER_04 11:17

I'm good, man. Uh just uh regained internet access and uh also uh just got back home. We we took a little weekend trip. We didn't do a whole fun family vacation, like a week long one this year. Um, but we did a nice little weekend. We went down to uh Mohican, which is uh kind of a little little bit down towards Dan's place, um, rented an Airbnb. And yeah, just did some uh cool stuff out in the woods, minimal cell phone service. We went to this uh Mohican Adventures. So it was that that was really cool for Peyton. We did like they had like aerial uh aerial adventures you could do, like you hook onto a harness and go through all these obstacle courses, like all up way up in the air.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Um, you know, uh Corey, I want to see you on a harness and an obstacle course out there.

SPEAKER_04 12:05

It was I'm I'm telling you right now.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Well, I'll put on a harness, all right.

SPEAKER_04 12:10

Some of this stuff was uh some of this stuff was wild.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

I mean that went. If Gabby wants you to, right? Yeah, yeah. I make custom bed posts.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Do you really, Dan? I never thought about that. Have you ever gotten a request?

SPEAKER_03 12:27

No, not yet. Oh shit, dude.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

That's gonna be when you do happen. It might be me. I might we might ask you. That's great. I never thought about that. That'd be funny if you did.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

When is when does Peyton go back, Greg? Uh the 17th, 17th, I think.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

Of August. Yeah. Which that's that's the latest out of any any of the kids. And I still think it's too early. Like, did well am I tripping, or did when we were when we were in elementary school, did we not go to start like after Labor Day? The week is all after Labor Day.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Florida's always been early. Florida's always August to May. My wife, uh, my mother-in-law, she's a lunch lady, she's a head lunch lady at the high school. She's not till after Labor Day.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Okay. Yes. The North is typically the week of Labor Day. Like it used to be the Wednesday after Labor Day, honestly, for me. And then they get out in June. But the South, like when I lived in Tennessee, was also August. So I think it's just like a I don't know, below fucking Virginia. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Corey, I switched to ATT. Guys, I'm saving $75 a month on internet service. I am so pumped up right now. No free plugs. Well, that's true. I got that. I got them hooked up on Thursday. It does take like four hours to run the fiber optic cables, apparently, but the guy was very nice. They got it all taken care of. It seems like great quality. I'm getting faster speed, more download capability, more upload capability. Uh, like awesome stuff. I got a guest Wi-Fi now. There's a McDonald's household and a McDonald's guest household, which is sweet. Um, now I can just be like, excuse me, sir, can you please get on the guest Wi-Fi? Yeah, thank you. That's a baller. But like the cool thing was there, I was like, Oh, do I need to like cancel my Xfinity like right now? And they were like, no, just just we'll get you up and running, see how you like it, and then you can always cancel your Comcast. So I did, I canceled yesterday. Canceling Comcast internet was the most pain in the ass. Like, it was such a hassle, which is one more reason, amongst many reasons, that I couldn't wait to switch. So I'm really excited.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Did they give you promotions and shit?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Like I got like a couple months, I got like the first three months free, and then um I got like $20 off or something, like a gift card possible. I don't know, something like that. But I'm basically locked in at $50 a month now uh for an entire year, and then it is gonna go up a little bit, but not but not much. I'm still gonna be saving like $60, $65 a month on internet. So and everybody I talk to, you included, say that it's great quality and they don't have any issues.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Dude, the amount of streaming we do, plus I work all day on it, it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

So I'm pumped.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

It's the little things, little things, but I'm all I'm all about it, man. I did the same thing. Uh with Spectrum, we were paying like all of a sudden when I started introductory, it was eighty dollars a month and it raised all the way up to almost $150 a month. Yep. So I called them and I said, Yo, I don't know what's going on. I said, I'm gonna have to go somewhere else. I got T-Mobile ATT, I got things I can do, da-da-da. And she dropped it back to $80 a month and locked it in for three years. I was like, cool, good, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

The the thing with Comcast, and like I we've talked about this before, but they they do that, they'll lock you in like to a two-year contract at a certain rate, but then they just it j it skyrockets and it's such a pain in the butt. And like, I was I've been with them for over a decade, and you would think that the longer you're with them, the more they take care of you, but it's the opposite. It's the they're like, Oh, well, yeah, we got you. Yeah, they're like, Oh, well, if you if you cancel and then sign back up as a new customer, we can give you this. I'm like, that makes no sense. I have to give all my equipment back, have you come out to the house, do it all over again. Like, it's such it's such a hassle. So I'm I'm happy to be done with it.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

My mother was a new customer when she moved down here, and uh, they locked her in for internet for 40 bucks a month for five years. I was like, what the fuck? Like, where's that deal for all the people that have been paying you all the time?

SPEAKER_03 16:32

Dude, I looked up I I quoted online when I called the lady, I said, Hey, I'm looking online right now and it says $55 a month for the same speed that I have right now. I want that. And she's like, No, oh, that's a we can't do that. Uh it's like, come on, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

So they're all they're all out of control. They put them on the list with the airlines and ticket mastermaster, all that shit. They're all out of their they're they're just out of their minds. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

As soon as the wires run, they do nothing. Why am I paying you all this money for?

SPEAKER_02 17:03

And why, why for concert tickets, do we still have service fees? You don't have to put a fucking ticket in the envelope, guys. Yeah, you don't have to do anything. No, you're just emailing it to me. Oh, convenience fee. Didn't it didn't feel convenient to be honest? I had to I had to sit here for an hour to make sure I got in the queue at the right time. Like it wasn't very convenient. Anyway, those are while we're at it, guys.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

While we're bitching, we might as well talk about like uh the democratic socialist of America, too, while we're at it. Oh, the I'm just gonna go.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

I was gonna say you you spelled communism wrong.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah, I'm kidding. Um I want a free grocery store. My day was good.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Yeah, how are you gonna get in? Oh, we're gonna show ID. These guys are out of control, man.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

So it's weird, it's weird when they when they seem charismatic and intelligent and then they do weird shit still. It's like what the fuck's happening? What are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Yeah, all assimilation. I definitely didn't mean to start that car. I was just joking.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

No, we may as well just do it. I don't know. I don't know if we're right.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

I don't know. You give us the wind, we're sailing, bro.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Alright, well then would you guys rather talk about religion?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

I would personally. I I can have a more intelligent and rational conversation on religion than I could on politics. I'd say we'd land the plane. Just land it right now. That's one of the two. No, we're gonna we're gonna get into some we're gonna get into some cool stuff. Uh um nothing, nothing really too crazy to report on my end. Everything's business as usual. The McDonald girls are in bed, ready for school. We got all their new same thing, all their new stuff. Met met did Meet the Teacher Day last Friday. It's really cool because so like Grace is getting all of Sophia's teachers, so she's like the legacy kid. I don't know. There's something I'm an only child, so I never got to experience that. There's something really cool about seeing these teachers again, and like they already know Grace a little bit. And I don't know, there's just something really cool about it. And second grade, I'll be honest, her shout out to Miss Christy Hooks, Sophia's second grade teacher, and Grace is now Grace's second grade teacher. She was she's by by far the toughest teacher that Sophia had, but in a really good way, like, like, never like, oh my god, she's like she prepared Sophia because apparently around here, that jump between second and third grade and all the testing they do that year is like really big one, apparently. She prepared Sophia and she was like appropriately tough on her while still being like super kind and loving and fair and all that stuff. Awesome teacher, and I'm really happy that Grace has her this year.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

So I'm positive. So Lucy's kindergarten teacher this year became a second grade teacher. So Lucy has that teacher again. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, that's awesome. And then she has a shot at it for um next year or uh next year or the year after she has another shot at it.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

That stuff, those things that we we pay atten pay a lot more attention to now that we're parents, you know, like that that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

So I don't know that my mom paid attention to any of this shit. I I often wonder like the world did you ever think about it how much the world has like changed? And like I said at the table we were we were eating earlier and I said in front of Lucy about how like we used to play manhunt when I was like in third grade, fourth grade, whatever it was. And like I was like, there was no way my mom knew where the hell I was. And Lucy like looked at me and I said, Don't worry, I'm gonna know where you are. And she was like, Maybe and I was like, No, no, no, no, I'll track you.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

I will. I so we don't let the girls run around at night outside by themselves, they're also not quite old enough. I think when you're 12, 13, 14 year old, I think that's a little different, but but they they run around the neighborhood during the day with the kids, and they they go, they're definitely out of sight of the house, like they but they know exactly where they are and aren't allowed to go. And our ours, we butt up, we actually dead end right at the school entrance. So there's a little, there's a park, there's a roundabout. It's like a the side, but they know they're not allowed to go the other side where the main road is. And they have one friend on the street behind us, and another on the street ahead of us, and then a bunch on our street. So but they go and they're but they're never like I can step out in my front door, and if I yell the word Sophia really loud, like she can hear it. Because they because what they're not allowed to do, they're not allowed to go inside of anyone's house without permission, even their friends that I know. It's outside only, front yard, backyard, sidewalks, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

I would stick an air tag on my kid so quick. Yeah. Right in the shoe. I don't trust this fucking world. Yeah, well. I've been hurt enough.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah. It doesn't trust you either, Corey. I know that for a fact. What else, boys? Anything else we want to touch on in this uh this here around the horn segment? Anything anybody got anything on their chest? Let's talk about discussion topics, questions, concerns.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

The two uh the two male athletes going into the WNBA. Love it.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

One a former NBA player. What do you think? What did you say? Enus Cantor.

SPEAKER_04 22:23

Oh no, we're talking about you didn't hear about this then.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Oh, you didn't know.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Because the WNBA has left everything so open-ended as to what the rules are and aren't. You remember a gentleman named Enos Cantor? Yeah, I heard about him. Yeah, he's declaring for the draft.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Right. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

He wants to be drafted.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Do you think he'll actually go through with it or is he just trying to make a statement?

SPEAKER_03 22:46

Well, I think he's calling bluffs because they're they're killing blue. That's what I mean. Yeah, they're killing they're calling bluff because they're now actually meeting to define what it is if they can enter the draft or not.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Right. I heard I know about him. I saw his little whatever he did on the TV, but the other one that's a uh that's a is a Royce guy or something. A guy that's over in France playing in the equivalent to the WMBA France. Um they're not gonna actually let her in, I don't think. Him. No. Yeah, well, I'm just down curious.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

I mean, well, they might, they might, and then open the floodgates and then you see the thing.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

What's the guy's name? What's the guy's name that offered $10 million if the WNBA could beat a high school basketball team?

SPEAKER_03 23:27

Oh, yeah, what's his name? I forgot. I saw that though. I saw it.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

I forget too, but basically saying, like, he if you take like a uh I think he even said like a freshman and sophomores versus a WNBA team that they would they would beat him and he'd give he'd give the high school kids ten million dollars to do it or something, or no, he'd give the WMBA ten million dollars to do it, or something like that. Something like that. But what do you guys think? Could a could a mediocre high school basketball team, boys basketball team, beat a WNBA team? I think us four would have a better shot.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Just because they're young and they'll get they're gonna get balanced by those 6'11, some of those 6'11 monsters.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

I'm not very aphobic.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

Sophie Cunningham's a beast. I like her. There's some big things. I like her. She's she's great.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

She's pretty. Yeah. Um I was watching, I am not a fan of any of the ball children, Lonzo Ball, Lamella Ball. I think they're all I think they're all goons, the father. I think they're all goons. Uh there is some talent there, but I think they're all goons. But they have their podcast, you know, Ball and the Family or whatever. Um, and I I forget which, I don't even know which one of them, but he was like, yo, he was like, I was six foot two as a freshman and dunking the basketball. Like, and his point was, yes, we could have beat a WNBA team back then. Like, yeah, like point and like that's just you know, I know not every single high school boys basketball team across the country is has six foot two freshman dunking, but yeah, like a lot of them do. Yeah, a lot of them do.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

But dude, if you put about uh what's uh good coach Hurley's um dad, uh the team, what is it, St. Michaels or yeah, yeah. That high school team. You put that up against them, they'll smoke them. So they'll beat them by 40. The the high school team would. The high school team will, yeah. Yep, yeah. That because I mean they're basically professional athletes at that point already, dude. They're nasty. Yep. But any average, I don't think any average normal high school team would be able to beat.

SPEAKER_04 25:23

I I don't even know if it comes down to athleticism as much as it just comes down to the biological differences between men and women. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Well that but that kind of right, but that kind of is like the athleticism part of it. Like, well, they're obviously a bigger jump higher and all that. There can be some great female athletes, but if you have, you know, again, you have you know, 15-year-old kid who's six foot one and 40 pounds heavier, it's like, you know, I don't know. That's a it's a I'd like to see it. I think that'd it'd be it'd be a fun watch if they actually do it. But uh it'd be catastrophic to the movement if they lost. Yeah, yeah, well, maybe, maybe, but maybe so. All right. So guys, we are, and to all our listeners, we are taking um, we're staying recovery based, but we're taking a slight turn. We're kind of we're bringing back if anybody for our oldest, oldest, longtime listeners, they will remember some of our deep dive topics. Um, some of those deep dive topics included Monsanto Food Company, um the uh the YSL Atlanta rap murder trials.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

Oh, that would be that was bad, man.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Those might be the key episodes I turned off.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

I was like I was livid. I was limited to that one. That was so bad.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

I enjoyed some of those deep dive topics, but um no, we are so we are we are recovery-based podcasts, right? And um, you know, each of us do have our our brand of recovery that we are aligned with and and and loyal to, but we would be remiss if we didn't discuss some of the other recovery organizations and recovery groups out there because we know that not, you know, one size doesn't necessarily fit all, right? We have no monopoly on God here in this podcast, and in our recovery organizations, there are many, there I don't want to say many, but there are other ways that people do get successfully and happily long-term sobriety up. So we're we were gonna like assign each of us a different recovery organization and you know, 10 minutes on each, but we knew Corey wouldn't do the research, and we didn't want to, we felt like that would be way too convoluted. So we actually picked one for tonight, um, and and that will allow us to have you know other uh episodes on other recovery organizations. And like the one we're talking about tonight, there's a couple offshoots that came from it that we save, we'll mention them, but we save them for different episodes. So we're not necessarily gonna do all these in a row, but you know, stay tuned over the next you know couple months. We'll probably um you know do one of these different recovery organizations, a little deep dive into them, you know, every every so often over the next few months and stuff. So tonight, gentlemen, tonight we are talking about um Buddhist style recovery, as in you know, Buddhist monks, uh Buddha uh as most people know, the the fat man with a belly, even though that's not at all what the actual Buddha looks like. Um, but we're talking about Buddhist style recovery and not just like, you know, this isn't and and it's kind of broad in the sense of there's like a general Buddhist style recovery, and then there's like if anybody is familiar um, you know, with like 12-step recovery, there's a lot of different 12-step organizations out there. There's like a 12-step Buddhist style recovery as well, but we're gonna keep it kind of simple and just basic tonight. So um, Buddhist style recovery bridges traditional Buddhist teachings, specifically the four noble truths and the noble eightfold path and mindfulness, which we'll get into the four noble truths and the eightfold path. Uh, but it blends that with uh addiction recovery practices. So rather than framing addiction as a moral failing or purely a disease of powerlessness, um, the Buddhist framework understands addiction through the lens of two words or two meanings. Um, and forgive me, I'm gonna probably mispronounce some of these, but um tanha t-a-n-h-a, and that's like the craving or attachment part, right? The craving for the drugs and the alcohol, the attachment to the feeling and stuff like that, uh, and the attempt to escape uh our feelings and emotions, which is known as uh dukkha, d-u-k-k-h-a, which translates to uh suffering or dissatisfaction. So real quick, we'll stop there because that in and of itself is a mouthful. Um I like tan ha.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

I like the long long a tan ha.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

I like dukey. What did I say? Tanha?

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Yeah, you're probably right.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

I might not be. I definitely might not be, but he did Dan likes dookie. It does sound like dookie, but you know, like it kind of is right up our alley when it talks about you know craving and attachment, um, and then suffering and dissatisfaction. So let's let's pause right there before we go any further. Greg, what jumps out to you with that? Just just in that, I know you we all have the same Google Doc, and what jumps out to you with um, first off, I guess I would ask, do you have any experience with Buddhist style recovery or any knowledge of it or background or anything like that? Have you heard of it before? I've heard of it, yes.

SPEAKER_04 30:36

I have no uh knowledge or background of it uh whatsoever, but obviously you can see the the parallels right off the bat, you know, um talking about the same things um that we're talking about. I think that um I I I find the the word attachment uh interesting there. Um you know, and uh so I I'd be eager to see um what they feel like the root causes of of addiction are and um you know what their the the method of overcoming it is, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Dan, what about you? What jumps out at you?

SPEAKER_03 31:16

What you know Yeah, I mean to me it's just like you know, like how how we always talk about of like all these things that we had to do and all that stuff. It just feels really like it's more centrally focused on the mind and the freeing of the mind. And once you free the mind that everything will just fall fall in line with that, you know, because all the research and stuff meditation and all the all the stuff that has to do up here, you know, it really just central centralizes around that and the the cravings of the uh uh uh the unnecessary desires that you think you need. You know, like that's really what uh uh stood out to me is that once you can re you know appeal the mind, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

It was pretty uh when I delved into it, there are there are a lot of overlaps for the kind of recovery that we're all in. There is definitely a lot of similarities. Corey, what about you? What jumps out of you? What stands out? Do you have any prior history or knowledge of this kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_02 32:10

I I don't have history or knowledge of anything, but what what jumps out is it rather than framing addiction as a moral failing or purely a disease of powerlessness, that's the part that that confuses me a little bit so far. I'm interested to learn more, but uh because we kind of do know it as like an illness and and lack of power is actually our issue. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Um so it's the moral failing part, we we our our style of the We're on board with that. Yeah right, does not exactly does not look at it as a moral failing either. But you're right, I I jumped out at me too, is like we do like that's kind of it kinda our whole program kind of hinges on admitting powerlessness, honestly.

SPEAKER_05 32:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

But then but then like like we just said, like it talks about the craving. Right. So so yeah, let's let's continue.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Sean, I got a question for you because I'm I'm curious about it too. Is like so to me, like you know, that from you know, things that we know and stuff like that, it seems to me, and this is with no knowledge, this is me just like talking. Uh it seems to me like they're trying to take the focus of any kind of blame towards yourself in order to unlock the mind to free it. You know, because that's like admitting powerless and stuff like that. It's admitting that you failed and all that stuff, right? Or like if you just free your mind in this one aspect, you know, it feels like to me that's what they're kind of centrally focused on.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Yeah, which would kind of make sense because I don't know if we know like I this is a bad way to put this probably, but I think we we see people we see people that have had like sobriety time before go back out or whatever. And then like the immense amount of like guilt and shame and everything I think keeps them out or or like disables their whatever to come back, you know what I mean? So I think that would that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Well, and and to your point, Corey, and to you too, Dan, I I I don't I think we're gonna learn more about that in the next few things, but I I I agree, Dan. And how many times have we heard people that we know that have gone back out or that can't get it, or people on social media or whatever, they talk about like like I mean, there's stuff out there now on the social media outlets of that whole idea of oh, I I don't wanna um I don't have to admit powerlessness to like be able to overcome my drink. Like you don't have to go that route, you know. It's a kind of an alt, like they're it's it's almost the they're looking at it as like the empowerment movement, like empower yourself. Like I I used to be an addict and now I'm not kind of thing. The old our old friend Corey's best friend from Passages Malibu.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

Yeah, as I say, that was a commercial already.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Oh, I don't remember. I don't remember at all. That reminds me, guys, at the end of this episode, I want to tell you a brief story of a speaker I heard last night at a meeting. Wild, wild story, but I'll sidebar that for a minute. But like that whole, like, well, I used to be an addict, now I'm not, and to continue calling myself, my name's, you know, Sean, I'm an alcoholic, I'm a drug addict, is like putting more power to those things where we all, the four of us, know that by admitting powerlessness, we're actually clearing away so that new power can flow in. But I think that's a a very um insightful point, you know, that you brought up, Dan. So, all right. So, core foundations of Buddhist recovery. There's four noble truths. And I want you guys to listen to these and think of the four absolutes, right? Pure unselfishness, love, honesty, and God, I can't even think of the other one. Whatever. What's the other one? Unselfishness, honesty, love. Wings and wings, yeah, boneless wings.

SPEAKER_05 35:53

Boneless wings.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

But um, I think there's gonna be a I have a feeling there might be some overlap. So the first truth is suffering. Recognizing that addiction creates suffering in ourselves and others. Yep, I can get on board with that. Craving and aversion are natural parts of the human condition, but clinging to short-term relief worsens long-term pain. I can't dispute any of that, right? Yeah, second truth, the cause. Understanding that craving, attachments, and the attempt to numb discomfort drive addictive behaviors. I'm gonna say that one more time. The cause. Understanding that craving and attachment and the attempt to numb discomfort drive addictive behaviors. I would say they contribute to addictive behaviors. The word drive almost makes it sound like that's the main reason, and I don't necessarily agree with that, but I would say contribute. Um, third, cessation, realizing uh so cessation means like separating from, right? When the um cessation of drinking, stopping drinking, separating yourself from the drinking of the drug. To cease. Cease, exactly. Yeah, third truth uh cessation, realizing that freedom from addiction is possible by changing our relationship to craving or discomfort. So we would probably say that of like changing our relationship to the spirit world, right? Like getting that like gaining an understanding and a relationship with our higher powers, they're coming at it more from a um like a mindset kind of thing. And then the fourth truth, uh, the path, following a structured approach, uh, which is the eightfold path, which we'll get to in a second, to cultivate wisdom, ethical conduct, and mental discipline. So sounds a lot like uh a morning routine, Corey.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

They're they're not gonna get sober. The Buddhists are not getting sober, in in my experience. It's not gonna happen. This is called moral, this is called moral psychology, and it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

Well moral psychology is what blossomed is is kind of was this that's just the doctor's word for it that blossomed into what we what we know is you know spiritual healing today. But it definitely does seem it definitely does seem that there's almost a Freudian aspect to this, like a psychological, like psychology of it. Like, hey, you just have to train the mind better and and and you know devoid yourself of any cravings or attachments, and and just like it's very much like there's an undertone of I can do this. Yeah, willpower.

SPEAKER_04 38:34

Well, right. Also, the though to me is like especially trying to look at this through a different lens, as if you know, I'm I'm trying to take in this information as if I don't already know my own form of recovery. That's a good point. And my own so so if I'm just trying to look at this as much as like through a blank slate, what I what I get here is a lot of what Dan said is is this is very mentally focused, and I think that um that is very typical of uh the Asian culture overall. If if you've ever studied or or um you know, even just looked into like a lot of different martial arts and stuff like this, this is like right on pace with what they do. That's true. Um you know, so I I think it is. I think that that is much more structured around um instead of like you said, spiritual healing, you know, how do we heal the sick mind? And and this is their approach, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

New act, new, new activities, new ideas, you know, move a muscle change of thought. I would like to add a question just to kind of keep under to underpin to undertone all of this stuff is um, you know, we're talking about Buddhist style recovery from Ohio and Florida on Zoom in America with a very specific type of recovery that all four of us have been in involved with for a long time. Does this style recovery and I don't know really how to frame this, or just but this is you know, does this work better in other parts of the world, essentially? To Greg's point, the Asian culture, the the the Far East culture, does this kind of belief system work better over there than possibly over here? And I don't that's not like to answer necessarily right this moment, but I think that's an overarching question.

SPEAKER_04 40:21

They do come off, anyways, as a very disciplined people. Yep, you know, so um and there's it's not not just Buddhists, I mean uh Chinese, Japanese, Japan especially are are very, very disciplined people. And there's a lot of stuff alcoholics over there. Oh, yeah. They're they're they might not like to admit it as freely as we do here.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Or we got one in our home group, dude. Nobody told me about this. Asian Dan. Oh, come on now. We do, we have an Asian, I forgot. Yeah, we have an Asian Dan. He's really cool. I don't I don't accept that at all. He's really cool. I think you guys' eyes are both the same amount open. I was just gonna say, man, we can't do that. He's really cool, but um, I do think that's a valid point. Like they they they do have a lot of success. I I've never I've never really delved into this rick Buddhist recovery, but I do know a few people that have done it. One of them's not sober anymore, so that that's beside the point, but one of them is long term. Shocker. Yeah, yeah. Well, there's there's that too. But one of them is long term. There are there are some really cool like concepts and precepts to what they do.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

I don't know if like sustained sobriety, I could have gotten it by doing it, but um so one one one thing uh pertaining to this that in my research, man, I mean, literally, is uh diversity, especially down there and stuff like that. They are not diverse at all. Yeah, and one person that like when I was doing my research, they were speaking that they walked into uh uh a recovery group and and um uh all they saw was white people around them, and they very true and they did not feel included. So diverse diversity. We do have an age of the city.

SPEAKER_04 42:02

Oh, dude, I can I can have you come to a uh a meeting over in Cleveland Heights on Saturday afternoons that is wild, boy.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Remember Vegas, dude.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

Remember Vegas? Remember we went to the Las Vegas? But it's all you know what I mean. I mean, if you're gonna play the numbers on it, it's not that's not gonna be the case. True, yeah, true.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

No, we we don't have a whole lot of diversity down here, uh a little bit, but not not too much in in in this here part of Florida, anyways.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

I don't like when people say that they meditated with the Buddhists and stuff like in in the rooms of recovery, like they like to throw that in their story. It's very ego-y. And then you find out that the fucking temple's in West Palm. It's like you didn't go anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Yeah, it's on it's on the right next to President Donald J. Trump airport.

SPEAKER_04 42:46

Our our good friend George uh did a lot of good work in that temple.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Oh, I'm not saying that can't be done.

SPEAKER_04 42:53

Well when he was going through his cancer and everything like that. So yeah, I will say that. Yeah, he's just uh I've never been there, so I I can't say anything else about it, but yeah, I know that those people in that temple were very helpful to him. As were those who are cancer free today? He is 100% cancer free. Yeah, they actually just published an article about it. Yeah, it's like a medical journal about him.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

I read it, dude. Awesome. Is he sober? Not to put you know what that's never mind. We don't have to talk about that on the show.

SPEAKER_04 43:23

No, no, I reached I reached out to him not too long ago, or he reached out to me, and we you know, we just talked and his stories, but but yeah, so like I said, I don't, you know, he was he was real tight with a lot of us, you know, but he he had to kind of go on his own journey, and that was that Buddhist temple that he chose. Yeah. And they were they were great for him.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

So Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

That's cool.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

But George is George is a humble dude. Yeah. Threw it outside and threw it. You know what I mean? Like a lot.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Um anyway. All right, so that leads us into those are the four noble tribes. That leads us into the eightfold path in recovery, which just want to point something out. Eightfold path plus four noble truths equals what? Sixteen. Twelve. No, Dan. Incorrect. I'm a great carpenter.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Just throwing that out there. Four noble truths plus eightfold path. I mean, we're not even dealing with the same units of measurement here.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Well, eight plus four. I'm just I'm just I'm looking for correlations. That's all I'm doing.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

I'm just the universe has shown us a sign.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Just pointing stuff out. All right. Are we all willing?

SPEAKER_03 44:38

We're all going to the temple.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

We're all going. Let's go. I would be down.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

I would be down to the temple. I'm going to fucking share about it. I'm going to let you know that. I'm going to share about it at every meeting I can.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

When I uh, you know, when I meditate with the the Buddhist monks, um, you know, they said, Mr. Mitchner, uh, Senor Michner, you are you have uh you already know all this stuff. What are you even doing here?

SPEAKER_02 44:59

I have the fucking Dalai Lama on speed dial.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Oh, the lamb Facebook friend. I did a train. I did a deep dive when we talk we talked about doing something like this months ago, if you guys remember, or at least I brought it up. I did a deep dive on the Dalai Lama stuff, man. That's very fascinating how they pick and choose. Like, there's some really fascinating stuff there, but um, all right. So the first of the eightfold path, wise understanding. Um white understanding, acknowledging the reality of addiction, its destructive consequence, and accepting powerless over over uh powerlessness over the compulsion. Um sounds, you know, I can get down with that. And so we are powerless. Now we're talking by language. Wise intention, uh, resolve, right thought, committing to a path of healing, letting go of harmful resentments, and setting a clear internal motivation to stay sober. Nothing to argue there. I still don't have one of those, but go on. Wise speech, communicating honestly and kindly, aligning the with the principles of making uh restitution and amends where at where someone's done wrong, and personal accountability.

unknown 46:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Sounds pretty good. Wise action or conduct, it says action slash conduct or right action, living ethically, doing no harm, engaging in constructive behaviors that support ongoing sobriety, um, daily inventory and restitution. Pretty good. Wise livelihood, choosing a career and daily activities that do not compromise your sobriety or harm others, avoiding environments that act as you're gonna love this sport relapse trigger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:52

So you can't work in treatment, Corey.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Treatment's out. I was just thinking that. And you can't hang out at the crack house just because your friends are there, Corey. Uh, or certain barbershops, according to Brian Beattie. Can't hold money. Can't hold money, no cash. Well, yeah. Can't you can't go out at nighttime. The nighttime is a trigger. Can't spend time around my cousins. I used to get high with my cousins. Um wise effort, making recovery a daily priority, actively participating in different recovery settings slash meetings and groups, working to prevent old destructive habits from returning. Wise mindfulness, staying present in the moment to observe cravings, anxiety, and emotional triggers without automatically reacting to them, without automatically reacting to them with substance use. So, like reacting, like not reacting to those situations by going out and getting high or drunk. And then the last one here is uh concentration, cultivating mental focus and inner peace through meditation, Corey's morning routine, reinforcing the serenity and spiritual grounding uh sought in different meditative practices.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

I'll I'll have you know that I have that little sitting area in my in my home.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

And I do the two chairs that are facing out?

SPEAKER_02 48:18

The two chairs, and then Gabby just got a new table off Facebook Marketplace for free. Put it right there. It's got a little drawer in it for my meditation books. That's where the morning routine happens now. Nice. I like it. I have seen that I have seen the living that area.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

It is a nice little area. Anyway, I'm changing my tune. I think the Buddhists have a shot at getting sober. That I mean, that all sounds very, very similar to, you know, a lot of the stuff we practice and that we're taught.

SPEAKER_04 48:45

You know, does that Greg, did what did any of that anything specifically stand out to you or or anything you want to Well, I think in the very first thing that you said with the wise understanding, uh-huh, is um, you know, we're they're not talking about accepting powerlessness over alcohol and drugs. Right. They're talking about accepting powerlessness over the compulsion. And and that's always been something to me that is very interesting, right? Because we are compulsive people and we're we're very um we're we're all creatures of habit. So um I know that uh my compulsion to uh drink and or get high was was not the reason I was an alcoholic. That was that was part of the the trait, uh the personality traits that came along with it, and and certainly um you know um the the compulsion I would think more would be in the ritual of of what I would do than the actual like action of to to me it was just like breathing or drinking water, it just it just would happen, you know.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Um here's an example of that, which may be a simple example, but it's one that's always stuck out to me. I used to love smoking weed. I know big shocker guys, big shocker, but I used to love getting high on on the marijuana. I loved crushing it up and rolling it up. That process was almost more exciting to me. Almost, not quite, but almost more exciting and more like the anticipation of it than the actually smoking and getting high of it.

SPEAKER_03 50:20

I mean, you could have marijuana?

unknown 50:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:23

I'm just using it as an example when I was younger.

SPEAKER_03 50:25

Oh, I was gonna say that's wild.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Trust me, I had I had many other uh pre-shot routines that that gave me a lot of joy too.

SPEAKER_03 50:33

Don't get me wrong, but yeah, a CD case make me feel like that.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

For sure. Corey, what about you? What jumped out at you? I know you made it you made a good point during it already, but what uh what stands out? Anything you want to dispute or argue with or that you really agree with or align with?

SPEAKER_02 50:50

No, I mean the one the one part, like anything about cravings or triggers kind of baffles me a little bit. Um just because you know I I don't I don't think many people who subscribe to our brand of recovery and do it thoroughly and honestly deal with a lot of that like long term. Like I'm not saying in the beginning. I mean dude, the last time I can remember a craving, I was in detox and I mean like a craving craving, like uh like we're taught that the craving doesn't we're taught that the craving doesn't actually begin until we've actually ingested the drugs or alcohol.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

So that's what I'm saying. But but a lot of the world, right, the secular world thinks about craving when it comes to drugs and alcohol differently than what we do.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Yeah. I mean that's uh that's because we we think craving means that we just want something really, you know.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

That's the obsession part of it.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

Yeah. So we we kind of differentiate that in our brand about it. But where like when Gabby was pregnant and she wanted she craved pickles. I don't know that her body actually craved pickles.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

It was an obsessive intrusive thought that crowded out all else. Yeah. I also think that a lot of the recovery, secular recovery world believes in triggers, you know. Like I I think we're in the we're in the minority in that. We are in the minority in that.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Yeah, and you know what, dude, to a degree, it's kinda okay. Like this is the thing. I when I get off my high horse and I just come down off of the spiritual hilltop, um I can I can kinda appreciate I mean I can appreciate anybody's sobriety because I do ultimately at the end of the day think that if you're not sticking a needle in your arm anymore, whatever the fuck you're doing is a good thing. Right. To maintain that.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Um which is And if staying away from certain people, places, and things in the beginning helps you do that, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Well, I mean, who that's where it's like, well, who am I really to say that 10 years down the line you still don't you still don't want to talk to somebody because you're because that's like your past life. I fine, like that's not how I want to operate necessarily. Although I will say there was people in my past that I did I'd continue to stay away from. They're not good people. Like they're not you would not catch me around them if I met them today and never had history with them. But um you know what I mean? You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 53:16

I've been trying to get rid of you for years, dude.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

You you're gonna have your fucking chance for Dan.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

What about you? What did you what did you like, didn't like, stands out, didn't stand out.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Oh man, I mean, choosing a career and daily activities that do new con do not compromise or harm others, you know what I mean? Like that's uh to me, I'm more uh it's not like what I like or don't like, you know what I mean? Because all kind of like you said, it kind of all intertwines. You know what I mean? It really does, it's just a different form of it. And like Corey was saying, you know, if people are gonna stay sober for that, you know, cool, good for them. But I'm more I'm more intrigued to know the extent of that. So you are avoiding and getting careers based on your sobriety and triggers for the rest of your life, you know, like is this what the the how they're going how they're going to live that way for the rest of their life? Like that's what I'm more like curious about, like uh, like we just talked about in the beginning and stuff. And I'm huge on little wins, you know, because like we were talking about with the financial thing, man, you're doing little things, you know, to gain traction to go to to accomplish a goal, you know. So, like you said, in the beginning, if you're avoiding this, this, and this, those are kind of like the people some to some people that'll be avoiding triggers. It's a huge win. I didn't go to Marv's house and party with all them, you know, anymore. I avoided Marv. Uh, but you know, that's like a that's like a win inside your head because this is about freeing your mind. So that's like a win that I just did that and I didn't go over there and do what I usually do. So it's like small wins they start chalking up that give you that mental confidence and that confidence about yourself that maybe that I can actually do this. But uh yeah, like I said, I'm I'm really I'm curious. Is that that is that that that's like the these are the longs. I just found you, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:56

I I just found you got a nice little nugget here. Oh, yes, that might explain some of this, and this actually makes more sense when viewed through this lens.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

Talking about white again.

SPEAKER_04 55:06

Buddhism generally emphasizes uh practical uh examination over labing labeling something something spiritual. Um it says there's actually a really interesting Buddhist distinction between being uh spiritually ill or being mentally afflicted. The Buddha is traditionally described as saying that while an enlightened, an unenlightened person may experience two arrows, the unavoidable pain of the body and the additional suffering created by the mind's reaction to it, an awakened person may still experience physical pain, but does not add any layers of psychological suffering. So there I think their lens is you know, through are are you enlightened or not enlightened? Because if you're enlightened, you can't be spiritually sick, but you can still be mentally ill, and therefore your addiction and your compulsions are of the mental variety, meaning that you have a broken mind and need it needs put back together.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Yeah. Yeah, it's listen, I I uh I'm intrigued. I would love to talk to someone. I tried to actually get the guy that that practiced this type of recovery for years and had put some substantial recovery time together. Unfortunately, he's not sober anymore, but I wanted to try to get I couldn't get a hold of him, you know, but I wanted to try to pick his brain a little bit, but it's intriguing. You look like you're gonna say something, Corey.

SPEAKER_02 56:42

No. I just I came across a I'm just thinking about like future things. I came across a podcast uh recently that was destroying uh like 12 step programs and shit.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Yeah. Tell them tell them to get in line.

SPEAKER_02 56:58

Yeah, I was gonna say there's no shortage.

SPEAKER_04 57:01

Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

No, there's not. Um so to wrap up, because we only got a few minutes, I have a quick historical timeline of Buddhist recovery, and then a couple other quick points that will kind of tease future episodes. So um fifth we're going back to fifth century BCE. I don't even know what the hell that means, but I just know it's a long effing time ago.

SPEAKER_02 57:26

Um like a year before you got sober, Sean.

SPEAKER_00 57:29

Yeah, well, thanks. Um, before I could grow facial hair. Ancient origins, uh, the fifth precept warns against intoxicants. Early text created the hungry ghost, in quotation. Beings uh beings with huge bellies and the needle thin throats as a metaphor for insatiable craving. So kind of how we get the fat Jolly Buddha today, uh, but it warns against intoxicants, right? Um, jumping a long ways to 1959, I'm gonna get this name wrong, but a gentleman from Thailand, uh thank you, Janine, before common error, B C E. So, like, you know, prior to Y2K. No, I'm just kidding. Um, 1959. Oh, I'm gonna get this wrong. First name, Wat, W A T Tham Krebok, Thomkrebok? Anybody want to help me? That's pretty good, right? Thamkrebok. Oh, Wat Thom Krebok. If you imagine um, my name's Wat Thomkrebok, alcoholic.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

Oh, God bless you.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Yeah. So uh Monks, this is from Thailand. Monks built one of the first Buddhist detox programs in 1959 using herbal uh emetics, strict discipline, mindfulness, and sacred vows called Saja to treat thousands of opium and alcohol dependencies. So New Horizons via Thailand, essentially. 1990s to 2000s, uh 12-step synthesis, Westerners blended mindfulness with programs like AA and NA. Um, there were books, um Mel Ashes, The Zen of Recovery, 1990, Kevin Griffin, who will get to him one breath at a time, 2004. These offered a non-theistic or non-theology, no, no doctrine, no religion, stuff like that, um, no God-centered person. Corey, are you okay over there? Are you snorting rails off your desk?

SPEAKER_02 59:27

I'm reading my phone. Okay, his reading. Your head was down.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

All we could see was the top of your head. It looked like you were snorting rails off your desk.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

You just interrupted a heavy nod, and I'm kind of pissed.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

They offered a non-theistic mindfulness-based approach to the steps. So essentially, reading into that a little bit to simplify it, no God, right? No, no deity, no God, no higher power, just a mindfulness movement. Um, 2003 to 2014, standalone movements shifted away from 12-step frameworks towards purely Buddhist programs. Key milestones were uh Noah Levine's Dharma Punks, P U N X, 2003, the Buddhist Recovery Network 2008, and Refuge Recovery 2014, and then 2019 to present uh recovery Dharma formed after split-offs of refuge recovery, uses a democratic, peer-led structure centered on mindfulness, compassion, and community, sangha, like we talked about earlier, as a standalone path. So that's kind of the thing. So refuge recovery is mentioned, that's a big movement, mindfulness-based recovery program established by Noah Levine, uh, using meditation and process meetings, non-theistic focuses on internal wisdom and meditative discipline. Here's where it gets interesting, and this is what's going to tease to future episodes. Recovery Dharma. So I would say from the Buddhist movement, refuge recovery and recovery dharma were like the two main kind of split-offs from that. Like they're the most similar. The main split. There's a couple other ones, but those were the ones that actually caught traction from what I read. So recovery dharma is peer-led, non-hierarchical, hierarchical community using Buddhist practices for all types of addictions, substances, processes, addictions, no required higher power. So there it is, there relies on the Sangha or the community, the recovery community, uh, Dharma, which is truth and teaching, and the Buddha, our capacity for awareness, which is apparently what Buddha means, um, formed in early 2019 after a major split with refuge recovery following legal disputes and allegations against its founder, Noah Levine. So I think there's some interesting stuff there for a future deep dive. I wonder what those allegations and legal disputes were. Um, I think I have an idea, but um to be to be continued.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:01

All I gotta say is this is if a dude named Noah Levine walks up to me and tells me he's a Buddhist, I'm walking the other.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:08

That's that was my first thought.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:10

Now, Wat Thromkrebok or whatever. Yeah, oh man. Noah you can kick rocks, bro.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

Yeah, can that get out of play and go anywhere? Can I work Wat Thomkrebak into the title of this week's episode, please?

unknown 1:02:22

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:23

Whatever. I don't know. Um, we are out of time. Uh, any quick, quick closing thoughts? I I enjoy this stuff, guys. I we could mess with the format a little bit and and how we do it, but I really enjoy doing this stuff and learning some things and having a few good laughs and maybe even a few key takeaways.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:41

So I desperately wish I wish there was a way that we could like go to a Buddhist temple before or like do whatever we're doing, but actually go experience it before we do the episode. That'd be cool. I'll tell you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

Do like a we could do like a pre and post episode on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

Yeah, that'd be tight. I'm gonna meditate on Kensington abs this week. So let's do it. Oh that's called getting high.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

All right, yeah. That's called nodding out, yeah. So um, all right, guys, thank you for uh thanks for coming along this ride with me. I know this is kind of my idea, and I appreciate everybody um coming along for this ride. Um shout out to our listeners. Please like, follow, and share on all socials at TrudReport Pod. Email us, TrudgeReportPod at yahoo.com. Send in your mailbag request for topics, questions, and comments to any of these handles. Remember, we are all here if anyone wants to talk about recovery and our experiences, or if you are struggling with some form of addiction. Thank you again to Janine and Stella Mix Podcast Management. Good night. God bless. Um Go Watt Thom Krebok, and we'll see you next week.