Perdition City Station

Book Launch: Last Train Out of Hell Interrogation...Errr...Interview

• Julie • Season 1 • Episode 16

Share episode

Send us a text

Julie's debut novel, The Last Train Out of Hell, launches tomorrow and Jarad kindly (or is it a ruse?) offered to interview her about the book. He's read the ARC and he's ready to ask the tough questions, like what kind of snacks are available on the train and whether there's wifi. Julie should have known she was in for a rough time when the questions showed up in her inbox labeled Interrogation instead of Interview.

Come for the spoiler free discussion and get ready to fall in love with Hagatha, Dennis, Brian, Gadreel, and the rest of the gang. The book will be available to purchase from your favorite bookstore on the 26th!


Meet us here at Perdition City Station every week for another excursion into Hell.

Hosted by Julie Price Carpenter and Jarad Johnson.

Podcast artwork by Carmen Jones; intro, intermission and outro music by Essie Lee; episode artwork by Julie Carpenter; this is a production of Sacred Chickens.

Produced by Julie Carpenter

Follow Julie: @sacredchickens.bsky.social and Substack

Follow Jarad: https://substack.com/@jaradjohnson1

This podcast has adult language and topics and stories related to Hell and the devil. We occasionally discuss death, suicide, and other unpleasant topics, usually related to religion, folklore or mythology.

UNKNOWN:

🎵🎵

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Perdition City Station, where we meet every week to take the train into hell.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm Jared, a writer, reader, We'll see you

SPEAKER_01:

next time. So, I feel very discombobulated. But that's OK. I just I just I came and I got this like a drink and I put it down to get ready. I was like, I'll have my drink ready and I won't have to leave. And so Jared can make fun of my curtains this time. And then I immediately knocked it over and had to clean it up.

SPEAKER_00:

They are ugly.

SPEAKER_01:

And scared the wits out of Crow. He jumped about six feet because he was coming in here to whine about getting a snack. And I accidentally spilled my Zevia and it foamed all over the floor. Now he's mad at me, but that's all right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I've never known Crow to have a lot of wits to begin with.

SPEAKER_01:

He's not the stupidest cat I've ever had by far. That was my cat Clyde, and we could talk about him. He almost deserves his own whole episode on a podcast about hell, but we won't talk about Clyde today. Oh, and I got a new cauldron because you know you used to have my cauldron. And I got a silver cauldron, and it's got these little gargoyles on the side. It's kind of a metal-looking cauldron, and I figured you won't steal it because it's not a big black cauldron. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, no. I will steal it.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you'll have to drive all the way to Alabama to get it. To

SPEAKER_00:

Alabama?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Hold on. I'm going to close the store. You want me to pull the curtains so that you can make fun of them? I'll be right back. Sorry, that wasn't very long. I don't know how much insulting of the curtains you got in. I

SPEAKER_00:

just broke the thing. I just broke it.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, well, then I guess it was pointless. It's a little fuzzy phone that fits over the mic.

SPEAKER_00:

I wonder if it'll fit now.

SPEAKER_01:

It might fit now. Does

SPEAKER_00:

that help at all?

SPEAKER_01:

I can't really tell a difference.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, well, Crowley, you cat toy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, this one falls off a lot, and I'm surprised the cats haven't just taken it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I had Camtasia running on my computer, so it's going to take a second to adjust because Camtasia fucks up everything.

SPEAKER_01:

It does. It is really buggy, but it's also cheap.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Well, I have the questions pulled up. Do you want to give an introduction maybe about what your book is? Maybe the origin

SPEAKER_01:

story. Actually, I'm going to let you make fun of the curtains. Oh, no. Here, I've got a book right here. I was going to say, I'm going to let you make fun of the curtains tomorrow while I've got a book. But I am going to read the summary of the book. This week, my book will be coming out. The official launch date is the 26th. But I think this episode will come out.

SPEAKER_00:

I think Thursday might be the 26th.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, you're right. I think Thursday is the 26th.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So it will be coming out on Thursday. And I think I might get this episode up a day early. But I will read the it's called The Last Train Out of Hell. And I'm going to read a summary of it. And then Jared is going to interview me about the book so that people who are reading it or who might want to buy it. can decide if they actually want to do that. Librarian Liz Martin finds herself in hell after being hit by a bus. She's sure she wasn't a terrible person. So how did she end up here? And is the bad place even so bad? After all, Brian, the manager of hell is pretty cute when he's not desperately putting out bureaucratic fires and begging minor demons to clean the overflowing toilets. Despite living in her miserable apartment with an annoying cat demon named Dennis, Liz is in the very best relationship of her existence with Brian. But Satan's poor business management and shady real estate deals have done untold damage. In fact, hell is crumbling and will soon cease to be along with everyone in it. Liz and Brian decide it's up to them and their ragtag crew to get all the denizens of hell aboard the last train out. And that is the premise of the book.

SPEAKER_00:

I really enjoyed the book, by the way.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that's right. And you had an advanced reader copy, so you got to read it a little early.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I read it maybe a week ago now.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

So let's just start off with a very creative question. which is, what is the origin story of the book and its major characters?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, first, I just have to tell the people who are listening what the title of your list of questions you sent to me was, which is a list of questions for interrogating Julie. So this is not an interview. It's an interrogation.

SPEAKER_00:

You sort of look like you're being held hostage behind those ugly-ass curtains.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

In the prison.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, so back to the question. I'm sorry. I didn't interrupt you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

What is the origin of the story?

SPEAKER_00:

What is the origin story of the book and its major characters?

SPEAKER_01:

The origin story, as far as me writing it, is probably twofold. One, I spent a lot of time in church listening to stories about hell and being very fascinated by hell. And the second is, I actually had a dream that I was in hell with a bunch of my friends. I think you and Essie were there. Evangeline and Josh and just some people from Writer's Hotel, Shanna and Scott and Scott and Scott. There's a lot of Scots at the Writer's

SPEAKER_02:

Hotel.

SPEAKER_01:

There really are. We were all in hell, and hell was starting to crumble. And we were in kind of a tunnel with a train, and you could see the walls of the tunnel, this kind of red, rocky tunnel starting to shake and crumble. So we're all getting on the train. It's the last train out. We have to jump on the train. And there's a manager named Brian, who's a really tall guy with a bow tie and elbow patches on his sleeves. And we're like, Brian, get on the train with us. We got to get out of hell. And he's like, well, I have some stuff I need to attend to. And that was when I woke up from the dream.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So you received most of it through a dream,

SPEAKER_01:

right? Yes. I received the basis of the story through a dream, which is how I receive. I think I had several stories that started out kind of as a dreamscape story. Or sometimes even daydreams where I just see a scene and I'm like, oh, that's very interesting. I'm

SPEAKER_00:

the exact opposite. I just start writing and then it unfolds.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I think that happens a lot too. And even when you start writing from a dream, a lot of times it will unfold differently than the dream.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, now for a very important question, which was who inspired the character of Dennis and was it me?

SPEAKER_01:

Actually, I would say there's probably a little of you in Dennis, but also my cat Brutus is probably the cat who most inspired the character. He's the person or cat's people. He

SPEAKER_00:

certainly was. He was quite the character.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. So anyway, I feel like Dennis was based largely on Brutus, but there certainly is a little bit of you in

SPEAKER_00:

Dennis. I loved Brutus, by the way. Brutus was Julie's cat, who I was convinced was about 100 years old. And he used to go downstairs and pee on her husband's clothes when he wasn't home.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, he had to eventually become an outside cat. And I think that was his goal, was actually to be tossed outside. And when we lived on that little farm, it worked fine. Somehow he made it.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, he was always inside when I was house-sitting for you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, he lived in the barn a lot and caught rats and stuff like that. But yeah, he was a disaster. He

SPEAKER_00:

actually never left my side when I was house-sitting for you.

SPEAKER_01:

He could be very, very affectionate, and he loved me a lot, but he would also turn on– he got overstimulated very quickly, and he would just– most instantaneous I have ever seen with any cat that has that problem. And all of a sudden you would be bleeding. So I was going to rehome him when I got him because I already had several cats, but I decided that

SPEAKER_00:

no one else would want,

SPEAKER_01:

no one else would take him.

SPEAKER_00:

Actually, I would have taken him. I really probably

SPEAKER_01:

would have, but you also had several cats at the time. So, yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

well, I remember one time I was house sitting for you at Gray's lane and you guys had like an entertainment room in the basement. And I remembered that Blake had left some clothes in the sink down there in the bathroom. And I don't know what had happened. I was just walking around, probably to go to the bathroom in front of the stairs. And I just saw his little fluffy butt going down the stairs. And I knew what was happening. And I knew what was going to happen. So I got to throw your husband's dirty cat pee clothes in the washing machine while you were somewhere probably fucking around in France.

SPEAKER_01:

Probably. I don't remember where we had gone. But it was nice. I got home. You'd made me blackberry scones. You went and picked all my blackberries.

SPEAKER_00:

I know. I always said I really loved that house. The only problem was that everybody else was living in it except me. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, you weren't living in the house.

SPEAKER_00:

Almost. At some point, it seemed kind of like I was there more than you.

SPEAKER_01:

It did seem like you were there an awful lot. I'll just say that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

UNKNOWN:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

which is why there was wax on your expensive wooden furniture.

SPEAKER_01:

It was nice that you made me the blackberry scones because I came home and discovered that you didn't understand that candles eventually burn down and leak all over your furniture.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you know what happened is I decided to light every single candle in your house and then I took a nap.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, I could sense that that

SPEAKER_00:

is what happened. But anyway, Brutus was an awesome cat. He was probably, don't tell Crow, but he was actually my favorite.

SPEAKER_01:

I won't mention it to Crow.

SPEAKER_00:

But yeah, did he live outside most of the time when you were there?

SPEAKER_01:

He did demand to live outside most of the time. But he would come in like if it snowed or, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

That's so funny. He loved Crow. Well, that's so funny that he actually only went outside when I went outside. And I was there with him. So he must have liked me better. Do you know what it was? It was probably that Blake wasn't in the house.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think so. Probably so.

SPEAKER_00:

But anyway, I guess that's who inspired Dennis. Didn't you have another cat that stole your underwear?

SPEAKER_01:

That was Clyde that we talked about at the beginning of the episode. That was when I was a teenager and he was... quite a strange perverted little animal in so many ways. Actually, he wasn't a little animal. He was huge and weird. That was a weird cat.

SPEAKER_00:

But yes, Brutus is... That's probably why I like Dennis so much. It's because I really liked Brutus.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. So he gets to make an appearance in the book.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And he was old too, right?

SPEAKER_01:

When he died, he had to, because he died a couple of years later when we were in Atlanta, he had to have been at least 17.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's so funny because there's a scene where all of the characters get in this really fancy car. And Hagatha the demon is driving them, right? Yes. And Dennis is sitting in the back whining and complaining and just being a general nuisance. And that's exactly how I picture Brutus driving from Tennessee to Georgia. Oh,

SPEAKER_01:

yes. He was miserable. He howled rhythmically and then shook the bars of his cat carriers like, bang, bang, bang. Do you think if you would just let him out? Like a little metronome. no if i'd let him out all hell would have broken loose

SPEAKER_00:

trust me my mom had a cat who used to ride on the dash of the the car

SPEAKER_01:

no brutus would would have been climbing up my hair and into my trust me i think i had when i picked him up i took him somewhere at one point and he got out of the carrier or something anyway no you can't you couldn't let him out okay he was a little demon

SPEAKER_00:

do you know i miss him in a way

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah, I miss him a lot. I really loved him, but he was also horrible. But you know, I have a thing for irritating and horrible people. No, I'm

SPEAKER_00:

just kidding. Speaking of cats, do you want a cat update real quick? Sure. So Crowley has been, he's not majorly sick or anything, but his stomach is not feeling well right now. And he's kind of been lazing about all day in his cat tree, just like, leave me alone. Just so if anyone's listening, he's fine. He's not even throwing up. But the reason he's not feeling well is because somebody at four o'clock yesterday morning decided to gnaw on the leaves of my peace lily. And I was like, I know you're going to get, I know your stomach's going to get upset. And did he learn anything? No. I'm sorry. I'm going to probably have to put the peace lily, I mean, somewhere, maybe on a plant stand. I don't know. So I have my own, Dennis.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, you do.

SPEAKER_00:

So second question, 30 minutes in. I

SPEAKER_01:

may have to cut some of this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, whatever. What was the first part of the book you wrote?

SPEAKER_01:

um the first part of the book was actually the ending which

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

we

SPEAKER_00:

will somehow i somehow i knew you're gonna say that

SPEAKER_01:

yeah which we won't spoil here but the first part of the book was actually the ending of the book uh as it turns out so

SPEAKER_00:

okay when did the um because i always feel like when i'm writing something there's a moment when like the inspiration hits so did that happen for you in this book

SPEAKER_01:

actually when um When I woke up from the dream, I was like, oh my gosh, I have to write this down. But when I really started, because remember, it was a short story first that was up on Fiction on the Web. But when I really started digging into it and making it a novel, I think when I got to Dennis and when I got to Hagatha, when those two characters entered the book, then I was just all like, okay, this is too much fun. I

SPEAKER_00:

love Hagatha.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Hagatha is one of my, I mean, she's one of my favorite characters ever that I've created. I think she's a lot of fun. I wish I was Hagatha. She's like my role model.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that leads into the question, who is your favorite character and who is your least favorite character?

SPEAKER_01:

My favorite character, and I hate to say I have an absolute favorite, I really feel like it's between Hagatha and Dennis. And I really love both of them and the way they interacted so much. And then, of course, my least favorite character is... Satan and Mammon and the board of demons that run hell. But I think Mammon is my least favorite character.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. She's my, probably my least favorite character. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

She's pretty, she's pretty awful.

SPEAKER_00:

Although I've definitely met people like her.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I feel like she's somebody everybody would recognize as, as an awful person.

SPEAKER_00:

It's a smarmy prick. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I love Dennis. I really like Hagatha. I would make a plea, maybe not my favorite character, but a really good character is the guy who runs the bar.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, Smoking Joe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

In my head, he's sort of attractive, so maybe that's why.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I think he actually is very attractive, aesthetically pleasing, and puts himself together really nicely. He's a very fine demon.

SPEAKER_00:

I picture him as longer hair that's salt and pepper with a goatee.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah, I think he's very good looking. A very good looking guy. I

SPEAKER_00:

also really didn't like the people who are pretending they're in heaven.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yes. Now, that was a fun chapter to write.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, there's a group of people that we meet later in the book who just deny that they're in hell. They just cannot accept that they've been sent to hell. So they pretend that they're actually in heaven and they just turn everything around. So yeah, that was a fun chapter.

SPEAKER_00:

So speaking of Liz, Liz... seems to get accustomed to hell when she works at the front desk, at the help desk. And I sort of see a lot of Liz's mannerisms in you. So is Liz an autobiographical character?

SPEAKER_01:

No, not really. I feel like Liz is probably even better than I am at just accepting circumstances. And she doesn't tend to get angry. She's just like, okay, I'm just going to fit myself in this box because I have to. She's very surprised and unhappy at being in hell. But on the other hand, she's very good at just being like, well, as she says, her therapist says she's very good at denial. And she's like, in some cases, it helps.

SPEAKER_00:

Did your therapist tell you that?

SPEAKER_01:

No, that's actually not what my therapist and I talked about. So I don't think that's, I think my problem is more that I feel like things are really unfair or unjust or whatever. I just have like a come apart. Now, I might ultimately get used to hell. And who knows? Maybe you know that's where we are. Maybe this will turn out that it's purgatory all along. And maybe I'm wrong. I did get used

SPEAKER_00:

to it. Well, I don't know. When Liz gets in the corporate office and she talks about, like, follow the rules and make sure the rules are this way, I was like, oh, this is a lot like Julie.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. There are probably no characters that I write that don't have some of my– I mean, now that I'm old, I kind of realized that people are put together of different Various, nobody has a completely stable personality. Everybody has all these different aspects of their personality. And even as you grow older, you look back and you're like, wow, I'm not that person anymore. So I feel like every character has got a little bit of autobiography. I mean, even Brian, there's a lot of ways in which I feel like I'm not like Brian, but I totally understand him. And in some ways, I am very much like Brian.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That reminds me of the picture that I sent you yesterday of the both of us at the Atlanta Botanical Garden.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, with the one where we look exactly alike? I'm going to have to post that. I'm sorry. I'll have to put that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, do like a before and after of me then and me now.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'll definitely put the other one up

SPEAKER_00:

too. I remember that too. That was the hottest day I think I've ever experienced.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you did show up at the Atlanta Botanical Gardens in what, July in a long sleeve shirt?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And jeans?

SPEAKER_00:

First of all, even if I was in hell, I would be wearing jeans and boots, by the way. I'm

SPEAKER_01:

so glad you moved to Maine.

SPEAKER_00:

I know. Global warming was going to

SPEAKER_01:

kill you. Do

SPEAKER_00:

you know what's going to happen on Tuesday up in Maine? The high is 99 degrees.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, my God.

SPEAKER_00:

But it'll probably be only that way for a couple of hours.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So, next question.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Why are you fascinated by hell? Have you always been this fucked up?

SPEAKER_01:

Here's when the interrogation starts.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. I would say I have always been this fucked up.

SPEAKER_00:

Have you always thought about hell as much as you do now? Well,

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, here's the thing. Or

SPEAKER_00:

is it because you're nearing the end of your life?

SPEAKER_01:

No, the thing is I grew up in an evangelical church. I mean, from the time I was a baby, I was at church twice on Sundays, once on Wednesdays, revivals, vacation Bible school, the whole deal, church camp, etc., Even if you talk about heaven to any extent, heaven does not have the kind of reality that hell has. And I know we've talked about it before, too. When people read Dante, they read the Inferno. Hell is fascinating. And I'm not going to say stronger, but has a bigger impact in the moment than calmness or happiness. Fear is a really visceral thing. emotion that kind of just grabs you. And I feel like when you focus on fear, it's something that it's hard to let go of. It's kind of like we talked about how purity culture and youth group, they talk about sex so much, which is, again, it's another very visceral thing that teenagers are all caught up in. And so when you talk about something like that all the time, that is going to be At the forefront of your mind. That's a thing you're going to become obsessed with. So I feel like from the time I was young, yeah, if everybody tells you that your whole goal in life is to try not to go to hell, then that's something you're going to think about an awful lot. So I would say yes. The answer to that question, after all of that going around in circles, is yes. yes

SPEAKER_02:

okay

SPEAKER_01:

i have always been obsessed with hell as long as i can remember so i remember even like at night i remember one time waking up and Even as a young child, I didn't see very well. So I had glasses and I had my glasses off. And I remember seeing a shadow that looked like Satan on my wall. And I was totally like I laid there for hours staring at it. And I guess finally the moon shifted or something and then didn't look. And I was like, oh, I guess that wasn't Satan. But I mean, you know, so. So, yeah, I think it's been very much. at the forefront of my mind. And now my mind spits off all these strange, bizarre little fictional tales that have to do with hell. So, I mean, you know, it's a win-win, win-lose, lose-win. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

I think in my case, it's a lose-lose type situation.

SPEAKER_01:

I did get a book out of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Two, really, because Whistle Stop is also, if you think about it, it's sort of about hell a little bit. there's hell in it so hey time for intermission you have time to give the cat some treats order my book sign up for clown school save the evil spirit out of your closet or anything else you want to do just be sure to finish the episode when you're done

SPEAKER_00:

Describe your version of hell in this book. Is corporate America hell?

SPEAKER_01:

In this book, yes. Hell has a lot to do with being... How should I put this? Hell has a lot to do with being forced to do a lot of drudgery that really doesn't benefit you, all for the benefit of someone else. who doesn't care about your existence whatsoever, who you could just be non-existent tomorrow and they don't care. And so, and it also, hell is also, I think, partly about finding a lot of people that you care about and understanding you can't really help them that much either. You know, that you're just all sort of trying your best to keep existing and squeeze all the little bits of Or whatever you can, like even the demons, they drink all the time and they're not happy, but they're trying to get as much pleasure or whatever they can, you know, in the moment. I think hell is also kind of about the way people torment each other. And it actually adds another layer to Liz because in the book, Liz at some point is like, okay, I'm in hell. I failed as far as I can fail. I can't. This can't get any worse. But then when she discovers that maybe she loves somebody, then all of a sudden, she has something to lose. And so it does get worse. You can't even hit bottom. That's kind of my idea of... hell in this book. That's how hell is set up in this book. And I don't mean this book to be theology. I don't believe that this is literally what hell looks like. I have already been told by an evangelical that this isn't like real hell. So

SPEAKER_00:

there's no hot guys in hell?

SPEAKER_01:

You know what? I don't know exactly what that meant. I'm just going to say that I have been told that this does not represent

SPEAKER_00:

You don't know what that means? I thought I was pretty clear.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, then you should go to my hell because there are at least some hot guys there.

SPEAKER_00:

That is true. Can I tell you, I'm working in the clerk's office of a courthouse right now, right? And I got to sit in on a trial the other day, and there was a very attractive marshal in there with us. So, of course, I'm trying to chat up this marshal as much as possible. Right. And then... The other clerk that I was shadowing was with him and he's like, oh, do you want to see pictures of my kids?

SPEAKER_01:

I'm sorry. So you got interrupted, did you? No, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So in your book, what was the hardest part to write and why? Was there a section you got stuck on?

SPEAKER_01:

Actually, the hardest part to write for me in this book was all the business dealings. I felt like I had to actually make all of the business dealings work well. And I actually went to my sister, who's an accountant, and had her read part of it. Because, you know, there's a lot of stuff about grants and real estate deals, et cetera, in the book. And not much. So, I mean, not to the point, I think, where it gets too technical or anything like that. It's lightly touched. But I wanted it to be right and not make the reader feel like it was– Yeah. Yeah. No, I wouldn't say hard, but that's tedious and I have to really be wary of is I need to go back and fill in the blanks to make sure that what I'm seeing the readers can keep up with and that they can see where everything's going and why it's going that way and that it all makes sense to them too.

SPEAKER_00:

Satan was really an asshole in this book.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

He really was. He was an asshole and a bit of a, for being realistic, he was a bit of a baby. I got the feeling that Mammon was really running the show with all her financial, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. He's cute, though.

SPEAKER_01:

He is good looking in the book. And so is Mammon. And so are Luke and Beelzebub in their way.

SPEAKER_00:

Which one of them has the cowboy hat?

SPEAKER_01:

That's Beelzebub, Bubba.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I kind of liked him. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. So he wasn't very smart, but you know, it sounded, I think he was probably in his way, a pretty good looking guy. If you like them big and muscular and slightly dumb.

SPEAKER_00:

I've never put those together, but I think you just described my type.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Bubba from the book. It's

SPEAKER_00:

because I grew up in the south in a rural area. I swear to God, every time I see a man in camo, I'm like, that's the one. It's like, no, it's not.

SPEAKER_01:

You got to be a little careful about that, man. Sometimes what they're hiding is a whole lot of crazy

SPEAKER_00:

under that

SPEAKER_01:

camo. We can't camouflage that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So... How did your experience of writing this book differ from Whistle Stop? Because they're both related to hell, but they're two very different

SPEAKER_01:

books. Well, they both took a while in a way because I had the idea for this book kind of before I finished Whistle Stop, I think. And it kind of sat there. I wrote the short story. With Whistle Stop, it was all different stories. So it took me a little while to... I'd think of a character, write the story, and it was a lot less formed. With this book, once I got to a certain part of the book, which was probably after Liz and Hagatha go to the train station. And they talked to the little man that wants to become nothing and throw himself in the abyss. Then I got super interested in how it was going to get to the ending that I could already see. And I'm like, well, how do we get there? And so at that point, I just got kind of obsessed with it. And I really pushed... Pushed hard and couldn't let this one go. With Whistle Stop, because it was linked short stories, I could kind of do one and do something else and think about other things. But this one, once I got to a certain point, I just had to get it all done. So that's how this one was a little bit different than Whistle Stop.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

is there going to be a sequel or what is the next book that you're writing? And can I please lobby for a Dennis spinoff?

SPEAKER_01:

I would love to do a Dennis spinoff. There are two things I've thought about with this book. One would be a prequel, which I think would be really funny that just focuses on Dennis and how he got to be a personal tormentor in Perdition City. So that one I feel like would be a lot of fun. And of course it would also have Hagatha And Brian and, you know, some of the other characters. But I think it would have to be Dennis focused because I believe that the way he got from point A to point B was probably ridiculous and annoying.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And very much unlike what all the other demons do in there. Dennis is annoying. He can be kind of an idiot. Yes. And he's a lot of fun for if you're not– living with him and he's not your personal tormentor. He's quite funny.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Sort of like you and Essie.

SPEAKER_00:

Essie is Dennis, okay? There's just no... You

SPEAKER_01:

guys are the same way. It's like, if I'm living with you, not as funny when you're out there. No, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, don't you feel sorry for Andrew now?

SPEAKER_01:

Bless him. He loves her. He thinks she's wonderful. She is wonderful. She's a magical creature, but you know how magical creatures are. They're not easy to live with. But yeah, I think I could do... I've thought about doing a prequel, which would be Dennis. And then I actually have some ideas. And the reason is when you meet, and I won't go into it because I don't want to do spoilers for the book before people read it. When you meet the creatures of the night, and I met them and they have that strange discussion and they tell you what they are and what they do. They said something that really intrigued me. And I was thinking that I might explore that. And I believe that's where they talk about how they make and unmake. And from unmaking comes creation. And it's a strange little thing. And it gave me some ideas that I don't want to talk about because, again, I don't want to do spoilers. But it would center a little bit on the Neoliti and the creatures, the night serpents. Right. that are at the center of the book.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. What did you call them?

SPEAKER_01:

The Nihalidi. Is

SPEAKER_00:

that from Nidhogg from Norse mythology?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it has to do with that. It is a word that actually I made up. I coined it, but I did kind of try to get the idea of them being serpents of the night. They're the creatures who run the abyss. We'll just say that. And the abyss is the place that all the demons and souls are afraid of because that is the deepest part of hell where you become non-existent. So if you choose in your afterlife not to, to exist anymore, you can actually do that at the abyss.

SPEAKER_00:

Whenever you say Creature of the Night, all I think about is the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, me too, which is I find very, sometimes I just amuse myself.

SPEAKER_00:

You know who else I would think would make a good spinoff? Who? Is Hagatha.

UNKNOWN:

Who?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, Hagatha could be. Hagatha, she is the head of security in the admin building in Perdition City. And she's a very no-nonsense she-devil who towers over a lot of the blue Beelzefen demons who are not all, but typically male. And she is, Hagatha is large and in charge.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Doesn't she have wings and a tail too?

SPEAKER_01:

She has a... A huge possum tail and a mohawk. And she's got a row of possum-like teeth.

SPEAKER_00:

And doesn't she... Eventually, she gets to buy a very expensive red leather jacket, right? Yes,

SPEAKER_01:

she gets to buy herself some nice stuff. And we won't spoil the plot by saying how. And she enjoys it very much.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I really like her. So... The broader framework of the story includes all versions of the afterlife. What do you think happens when we die?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, that's a good question. And, of course, like everyone else, I have no freaking idea what actually

SPEAKER_00:

happens. Well, the question requires you to have some semblance of an idea. Well,

SPEAKER_01:

here's what I have. I have ideas that I make up for myself. Yeah. Or that I kind of gather from... studying. Yeah. Every soul will go forward and maybe you have to do some sort of purifying thing, whatever. So I believe that this– I think it's easy to see the afterlife as some sort of misty, dark valley like Hades or Sheol or something. But I think it will be even more real than what we're experiencing. Almost like this that we're in is sort of a– It's a very particular niche little experience. And when you move past it, you will move into... You'll be able to see this as a smaller thing and life outside of that as a bigger... You'll be able to kind of go, oh, here's all this other stuff that I just couldn't experience in the material world that I was in. And to me, that's kind of my idea of the afterlife. And I think if you... I can see the possibility that if you are a certain way here on this side, then those experiences might not be so grand on the other side. You know, what we do here does matter in some sense. And I think everybody feels that way, even people who are atheists. Almost everybody. I'm sure there's always an exception. But almost everybody, I think, feels that what we do here matters somehow. even if it only matters here and now, that it really matters. Yeah. So I think if you posit an afterlife, you almost have to posit that. I don't know if you could even say rewards and punishments, but that what you create. Yes. We'll move on with you. There'll be a cause and effect.

SPEAKER_00:

I think so. Yeah. I, I broadly believe in that. I think.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I, That's kind of my thought is that there'll be some sort of something beyond this. And I'm not going to say better because who knows, but I think something maybe bigger, something that will allow us to see this from a bit of a distance. And I don't really know why I feel that way, but I feel there's something about that distance that seems like it would be... Maybe in the same way that like nirvana is desirable to kind of have this breakdown of the ego where you can see more. You're not just in your own little shell. You can actually see more. But I will say this is where I probably diverge from a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Is I think that the further deeper you go in existence, right? the more that what we would consider a paradox on this plane could exist. So I think it's not a choice between being an individual and becoming part of the whole. I think that as you go deeper into existence, both of those things could become greater. So I don't know that you would have to lose your individuality or lose the experiences that you had to either be reincarnated or become... you know, some part of a karmic hole. I think you could both be the water drop and the ocean, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Yeah. I like that. I like that a lot, actually.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I think probably the reason I believe that is if you read a lot of George McDonald, which I think perhaps I'm one of the few people that does because, you know, I'm a weirdo. That's fine. He has this thing about... Paradox is being resolved the further you go into existence, that when it's bigger and there's more room for either or, both and, than there is here on this planet existing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I sort of feel like that because I think once you're a spirit or whatever, I sometimes think we're limited by the physical world and we're probably supposed to be, but I think once you have shuffled off this mortal coil, I think things are very different.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Final question.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm prepared

SPEAKER_00:

for the final

SPEAKER_01:

interrogation.

SPEAKER_00:

Gird your loins. When and why are you going to hell?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. If I am going to hell, it's going to be because I have an extremely... poor reaction to people when I think they're being unjust or mean or whatever. And sometimes I can actually roll into being like just as bad. I mean, I get so mad sometimes about how people are acting. And I have to remember, you know, I used to think differently and be different. And I had to change the way I think about things. So sometimes I think people are When people are being unreasonable or difficult, I can be very much like, you need to quit thinking that right now. And I don't want to get to the point where I think a person is completely evil. And sometimes I have that kind of binary way of looking at people, and I don't like that about myself. And I

SPEAKER_02:

think

SPEAKER_01:

that would be what I'm going to hell for. And what would my punishment be? Oh. Probably in the next life, I'll have to be a mom that has to re-raise somebody like Elon Musk or Donald Trump or something like that. Can you imagine what a horrible hell that would be? They'll be like, oh, well, it didn't work out the first time, so we're going to have to give them to somebody else. Here's the nursery of all the evil people, and now you've got to re-raise them. On this plane, and I'll just be like, oh, fuck, that's not. I should have been a better person on the other side.

SPEAKER_00:

It's funny that you link motherhood and hell. I can't imagine why that might be.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, sometimes you should be a mother. And you'll understand. I

SPEAKER_00:

don't think it's physically possible. In that lot in life and only that lot, I got the better hand.

SPEAKER_01:

Actually, I mean, there's a lot of things I love about being a mother, but it is one of the hardest things. I mean, it's a tremendously difficult job.

SPEAKER_00:

For no pay and no pension.

SPEAKER_01:

For no pay and no pension. And in the U.S., Mothers are basically what keep the whole the whole thing running. We take care of the sick people. We take care of, you know, the laundry. We take care of all the little we we do it all and we do it all for nothing. So, yeah. So motherhood has its downsides and upsides. Yeah, you're welcome. You are very welcome.

SPEAKER_00:

Our bad.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, it's just, I think if we had a kind of a safety system that wasn't just women working themselves to death, it would be great. And, and trust me, I'm not one of the women that's, that is, my life is pretty good, but I do believe that there are a lot of women, especially, you know, when I was growing up, my mom, My aunts and my mom, they were the ones that took care of the elderly people. They were the ones that took care of the children. If somebody was sick, the mom took off work. They were the ones that kept everything running on an everyday basis. And the men that I grew up around had a lot of physical labor to do. So don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they sat around. But it was labor that if you got sick, you could take a day off from it. Or... you know, if you got really tired, some, you know, it was different than what women had to do, which is constant, no matter how you feel, you know? So

SPEAKER_00:

what I'm getting from this is don't have children and don't be a woman.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I mean, if you would like to take that away, I can't stop you. I can't stop you.

SPEAKER_00:

You never know the way that politics are going. That might happen.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, that's true. So, um, I'll just ask you the same question now. If you go to hell, why would you go and what would your punishment be?

SPEAKER_00:

Well...

SPEAKER_01:

And you don't have to get

SPEAKER_00:

into specifics. I actually think I could make some lascivious jokes right now. I'm not actually that much of a lascivious person, but I do enjoy hamming that up. I think... If I was going to go to hell for anything in like a realistic answer, I think it would be for selfishness and possibly, I want to say like reacting out of anger too much.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like reacting, carrying on some generational trauma that probably should have been left behind a couple of decades ago.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So, and I think my punishment would be, I could say put me on the rack, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know what? That's just too unoriginal for you.

SPEAKER_00:

No, no, no. All I'd have to go to do is to go to like some German kind of club and that can happen.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

I would say actually probably my punishment would be watching another version of myself get everything that I want for eternity. That would be a

SPEAKER_01:

good punishment. You know, I had a dream about that actually, about something like that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I dreamed that I was on a timeline with a bunch of people and it was like the apocalypse and we were all miserable. And we would go to this fence where we could see ourselves on the good timeline, having everything handed to us. And it was really painful in the dream. I was like, what the hell? How come I have to be this me? And that one gets to be that me. What in the world? That's a very inventive punishment. You know, they could hire you when you get there. And you could be inventing punishment.

SPEAKER_00:

Actually, I think I'm very good at making the best out of a bad situation. So if Lucifer is attractive, I think I'll do just fine. Actually, that would be another thing. I think some version of constant disappointment would be my punishment.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

But to be honest, it's not that different from now.

SPEAKER_01:

I was going to say. So perhaps it's just this life continuing on. You wake up and be like, oh, no, you just got to keep doing this one, Jared, until you get it right, until you learn to be satisfied with all. Yeah, that would be tough.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, thank you for interrogating me today.

SPEAKER_00:

You're welcome. You're welcome. And can I just say, have you ordered new curtains yet?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

No, these are fine. I don't even have them here. Most of the time, I just have them open. It's just for podcasts.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it's...

SPEAKER_01:

They are sort of hell-colored.

SPEAKER_00:

They are. You should get a Hot Wheels curtain that has flames on it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I don't think that's going to happen. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I would like that better.

SPEAKER_01:

Good suggestion, though. Anyway... Thank you for reading the book. And when it comes out, after it launches, you can actually put your review on Goodreads. Yes. And

SPEAKER_00:

can I just tell everyone, Julie sent me this book and signed it. And do you know what she said? She said, see you in hell. I

SPEAKER_01:

did put the part about bringing the snacks, though. So it wasn't all bad, did I?

SPEAKER_00:

But I opened this book and it says, Jared, see you in hell. Like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_01:

But then you enjoyed it. I

SPEAKER_00:

really did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So I guess we skipped our hell on earth this week.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, do you have one? I don't have one.

SPEAKER_01:

You know

SPEAKER_00:

what? Other than the disappointing Marshall.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, other than the disappointing Marshall. And I thought I had one, and now it's all gone. So probably I was reading the news, and I'm like, well, that's enough hell on

SPEAKER_00:

earth. Oh, yeah. Well, that's a hell on earth right now. We hit Iran.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm trying to focus on my own annoyances and disappointments because the larger world ones are so scary right now. Yes. that i'm like maybe i should just focus on my own personal hell but um yeah so we almost don't even have to this week even do uh hell on earth because someone else is doing that for us so let's uh we'll meet here next time and hopefully we'll just be in our own little version of hell and not like in a real world you know

SPEAKER_00:

yeah flaming are we going to talk about usher for the third time

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, we're going to finish it. And because I have other people in the high-frequency press publishing house that are getting their books out, I thought maybe once each week we would discuss one of the books for the next few weeks, one or two of the

SPEAKER_00:

books that are coming out. But I don't have the books.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I might send you them. But I thought we could just... Like summarize them, tell them a little about the author and just let people know what's out there kind of as a little advertisement.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Also, the episodes and my little posts that I wrote are on Substack. So if you want to restack them.

SPEAKER_01:

I will do that for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Also on Sacred Chickens, when I put like a link to my Substack at the end, I was like, here is my much loved and always well-read Substack.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I mean, you know, there's no harm in lying and advertising.

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, there is, but I mean, we're in a capitalist society and you got to do what you got to do.

SPEAKER_00:

That is true. Yeah, that is true. Oh, I have a podcast for you, by the way.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, what's that?

SPEAKER_00:

It's called The Poisoners. Hang on. It's actually, I follow one of them on, they do like horror books on YouTube. It's called The Poisoner's Cabinet. It's true crime stories about people, famous poisonings.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that sounds great.

SPEAKER_00:

It's really good actually. And they have a cocktail to go with it every week.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that sounds great. All right. Well, I'm going to let you go and I am going to go and pee because I did get through this whole episode though first. Did

SPEAKER_00:

you do it before we started?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I mean, at some point before we started. Or I would have exploded by

SPEAKER_00:

now. Did Blake took you out for a walk or something?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't. I really, honestly, Jared, I don't remember my schedule. Anyway, I'll talk to you later. Okay. Bye.

SPEAKER_00:

Bye.