Seen, Heard, Valued: The DEI Wake-Up Call

In this episode of Smart Start Radio, hosts Eming Piansay and Sara Robertson speak with Zoe Moore, founder of Moore Consulting Agency and a leading expert in equity, diversity and inclusion (EDI) in the meetings and hospitality industries. Moore shares her personal journey from the U.S. Army to event planning and EDI advocacy, explains why using the full terms "diversity, equity and inclusion" matters, and introduces her "Insight to Implementation" framework for creating meaningful change.

The conversation explores why supplier diversity drives innovation, how meeting professionals can impact communities through intentional planning, and why empathy and curiosity are critical leadership skills.

Further resources:

Read More: DEI at a Crossroads

Grow with Zomo

PCMA Event Leadership Institute's Event DEI Strategist course taught by Zoe Moore.

Transcript

[theme music]

[radio tuning sound]

Eming Piansay How's it going, Smart Start, folks? I am, once again, your host one of two, Eming Piansay.

Sara Robertson And I am host two of two, Sara Robertson. I like that we're doing that now, Eming, I think it's kind of cute of us. 

EP Oh, I'll think of other ways to do it. I just, I just got the Dr Seuss book in my head, and it hasn't gone away yet.

SR Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

EP Thing One, Thing Two.

SR Thing One and Thing Two. Love it. Sure, so office Halloween costume next year?

EP Virtual, but probably, yeah, yeah, editor one, editor two, no that doesn’t sound good, either.

SR All joking aside.

EP All joking aside, is actually really serious episode, so I apologize for all the laughing, but this episode stemmed from an idea that I had after going to SITE in Mexico couple months ago. I went to a session on on, on DEI, and it was interesting and really thoughtful. And I really want to explore what DEI means now in the meetings industry, now that we have all this stuff going on. I spoke with Zoe Moore. She is an EDI strategic consultant, and she offered such great insight into what DEI is and what it can be, and how it can be, how it can be used, and how we can evolve from it and how we can be better, and how we can kind of stand our ground in a lot of different ways, for the industry itself. And we just, we had a great talk with her, Sara and I.

SR We did, yeah, and EDI, being Equity, Diversity and Inclusion, we might be more familiar with DEI. And so she makes a really great point, which you'll hear later in the episode, about the importance of actually saying the words of diversity, equity and inclusion. And I do think it's really relevant that she's put equity in the front.

EP Yeah, yeah. She's, she's, she offered us some great, so much thoughtful things that I was just like,

SR Incredibly.

EP Blown away. 

SR Truly

EP I just couldn't even talk at one point. And I was like, I don't even know what to say. What to say. That was like, mic drop moment.

SR Yes, absolutely.

EP For, for diversity

SR She was incredible. And by the way, Eming’s article is incredible, so please give it a read. It is a fantastic resource.

EP Thanks!

SR And she spoke to so many brilliant people.

EP I really hope we can keep having these, these talks and figuring out, like, how our industry is responding and feeling and doing what's, what's right.

SR Yeah.

EP And or, by right, by right of you know what makes the most sense? I Yeah. I really hope that we keep having these talks and figuring out what that means for us.

SR Yes. So, enjoy an hour of talking about care, talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, equity, diversity and inclusion and why naps are awesome.

[laughter]

EP Let's go.

[radio tuning sound]

SR Hello everybody, and welcome back to Smart Start radio. We have a super exciting episode for you today, and we have brought in an absolutely fantastic guest. You may know her as Zoe Moore. She is the founder of Moore consulting agency, doing business as Grow with Zomo, and she has done amazing work in DEI, equity, diversity and inclusion, and she is here to talk to us more about this absolutely crucial topic and break it down and how we work it into the meetings industry to make it better for everyone. So Zoe, thank you so much for being here.

Zoe Moore So excited to have this conversation and meet you both.

SR Thank you.

EP Yeah, we're excited. So, Zoe was featured in our DEI story that I wrote. By the time this comes out, it'll be like, a month ago, but it was really good, like, I really enjoyed writing that. So thank you, Zoe for, for being a part of that conversation. And after that conversation, I was like, well, clearly I gotta have her on the podcast now, because they're all really good. 

SR Obviously, obviously. I just have to jump in to say that that was such an incredible story, and if you haven't read it, please read it. It was so good, and it was so informative and helpful. Read it. Read it. Read it. I’ll link it in the show notes for you.

ZM And I thank you for the opportunity, because every time there are multiple people quoted, I get to add someone new to my network, who's same language, who's out there doing the work I love to expand my network in that way.

SR I love it. So our, since our listeners may be introduced to you for the first time or may not know a lot about you, could we start off by just going through your background and what Moore Consulting Agency is and what you do and how you built what you do? 

ZM Yeah, absolutely. So I was born in 1980—No I’m just joking.

[laughter]

ZM No, but real, real quick. You know, I was in the army, so I am an army veteran. I did 12 years in the Army. And a lot of people don't always make the connection between, how did you go from being the army into events? And I think it's important to start the story there. I learned leadership in the army, one of the things that I did a lot was go into a very bare space and build that space up to a command center. And that required food and beverage, that required, you know, ebb and flow, Ingress, egress, all those type of things. And so I was being prepped to de, to become an event planner, long before I even knew, and I was telling a colleague recently that there's an event that we do in the military, I don't know if they still do it, called the Grog Bowl. And I was in Korea at the time, and I was sourced to do an event. I had to look at the hotel, I had to look at the menu, all these things. And then when I got out, I was honorably discharged, and I was trying to figure out who I wanted to be as a civilian, and so initially I went into culinary arts. I was living in Baltimore, Maryland. Had just left the NSA. I wanted something fun, because I was tired of being inside of a building, but I loved engaging people. I loved working at the help desk. I loved helping people through, uh, you know, troubleshooting their different challenges. So culinary school was this fun outlet to meet all kinds of people. And while I was in school, I met Guy Fieri, and all just different, 

SR Cool!

ZM You know, individuals in the culinary space. I was just so excited, because I was like, wow, you get to meet all these people. So while in culinary school, the Dean asked me, like, why are you going for a second undergrad? I see you have an undergrad in it. You should go for your master's. And I was like, Okay, well, you know, I'll take guidance. I applied to different schools. I got into Cal State, East Bay in Hayward, California, upped and moved from Baltimore, moved back home because I'm originally from the South Bay in Sunnyvale, California.

SR Oh my gosh, I'm from San Jose! 

EP So that’s why JT said you're from Oakland.

ZM Yeah.

EP I was like, she's not in Oakland, though. Okay, gotcha. Gotcha.

ZM You know, Oakland’s like, a key part to my, you know, journey, okay, but, yeah, Hayward's in between San Jose, Oakland. It's right in the area. And so I'm at school. And then one of my professors, who I always shout out, because he is instrumental in my career. And, you know, Professor Padron, you know? And he says, you know, hey, let's go to this event by Meeting Professionals International called the Annual Conference and Expo. And I go to this event, and at this particular event, I am introduced to the meetings and events industry, right where there's so many different vendors there, or boots. There was hotels, there were all kinds of catering companies and activations, and I just did not know that the industry was that extensive. But the issue that I experienced, because my badge said “student” in bright gold letters with a yellow tab, and I wasn't getting the interaction that I expected from the different folks at different booths. Now, mind you, I was 34 at the time, and so, you know, I'm older. I had been to the military and things like that, but that student badge was determining how different people treated me, and I wasn't happy with that, because, you know, Professor Padron was like, you know, you're going to go to this conference to get a job. And so I have my resume, I have my good suit on and thinking like that, you know. And as we kind of interacted, different students and I interacted, it was like one of those things where you're like, What is going on? And so I reached out to an MPI member that was on the floor, told her our experience got Professor Padron like bringing all these people together to talk to the students and explain to us what this conference is about. So we learned that each person was there representing, you know, their destination or their hotel, and they're, they're looking for event professionals who are going to fulfill an RFP, not necessarily the HR or the hiring people. And that, right there is what kicked off me, being like, Haha! You know, they have a lot of biases on who these students are, and we need to have that conversation about just because these individuals coming to you are students, and maybe you're not the correct person for hiring, this is also their first interaction with a company. And so if this is my first interaction, and it's a negative one, I'm gonna associate your company with my future in the industry, and there needs to be conversation around that. So that led to me starting an inclusion and diversity committee within Meeting Professionals International Northern California Chapter. Did that for two years. That led to MPI’s Global Diversity Equity and Inclusion chair, with Tanida Mullen and John Ehlenfeldt, being our liaison between, you know, that committee and the IBOD, the International Board of Directors, did that for two years, and got a whole bunch of awards. And then, you know, kicking off my business, moving here to Georgia. Now I'm a part of NPI, Georgia, where first I served as a director of inclusion, equity and diversity, or community inclusion. And then now I'm just, you know, navigating the current political climate, and glad to be in a space where I get to constantly talk about this topic and let people know that it will never go anywhere, no matter what the acronym is or the, the person who's leading the administration, no matter how much angst or pushback they give. So that's. That's my story in short.

EP Well, it's quite a story.

ZM Yeah. I have many lives, as I say. So, I have many lives, and if I tell you all the things that I did in the military, that'd be a whole ‘nother show.

EP Mmm. Yeah I bet, I bet. About a month ago, I wrote a story on DEI, and I spoke with Zoe as part of it, and she was really great. And I loved the conversation. And I was like, we have to have this on the podcast, because as much as I think it's this, this issue has been discussed, I don't think it's been discussed in depth enough where I feel like our community really understands, like, how important DEI is and, and I think that we really need to bring it down to base level, kind of find what it is, why it's important, and why our industry needs it, and why we should be supporting it, and not standing in the middle of the road waiting for which light to turn green

SR Right.

EP At this point, because that's where we're at, unfortunately.

SR I will pop into say that Eming’s story was incredible and you should absolutely read it, and we will link it in the show notes for you.

ZM Yeah, doing, doing articles or speaking on the topic of diversity, equity and inclusion, you will hear me now say all the words, right, and that's key in this conversation, because when we allow it to become weaponized, it begins with people creating the acronym as a monolith, you know, DEI, DEI, and then, like you, you spoke earlier, people don't know what it means. So, let's actually say the words, because it sparks a conversation among people, and that conversation ends with someone who says that they're, you know, they're unsure about DEI or they're not for that DEI thing, you know. And so, I begin to ask them questions. I'm like, “Oh, okay, so you're okay with people being excluded and marginalized and not cared for?” “No, no, no, I'm not. I'm not for that.” “Okay, so you actually believe in inclusion.” “Yeah, of course.” “Okay. And you're okay with things being inequitable. You're okay with women not being paid equally to their male counterparts. Or you're okay with, you know, inequality across education, housing, healthcare?” “No, no, I think things should be, you know, equitable, or I think equality is a good thing, okay?” “So you're not against equity.” And then same with diversity. You know, “You're okay with the room being homogeneous, or all men being in leadership, or all women, you know, being in domesticated roles?” “No, no, no, of course not.” “Okay. So you're okay with diversity. So you have no problem with diversity, equity, inclusion. You've just been, you know, sucked in to this propaganda that DEI is this negative thing.”

SR I mean, I'm curious, why do you think that's happened? Like, the term DEI has become somewhat of an like, it's gained somewhat of a negative connotation. People are like, oh, like, “I'm not involved in this whole DEI thing.” Why do we have this view of it, you know? And like, when did that come about? 

ZM I think it's not new, right, and so as a practitioner in this space, you also become a historian, especially in the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion space, because it's connected to the Civil Rights Movement and even movements before that. So when you look at Civil Rights Movement or the passing of the Civil Rights Act of 19 you know, 64 the backlash that we're seeing is just a repeat of the past, right? And so just because legislation got passed, it doesn't mean that it changed the social attitudes and the behaviors of those who were okay with laws like Jim Crow laws, that legalized segregation where we used to in this country, not even 100 years ago, used to have signs that said “white only” and “colored only,” right? That is our history, and there's a lot of different incidents, occurrences that is associated with that history that people don't want to talk about because it's uncomfortable. Now, here we are again in, you know, 2025, where there is an executive order wanting to return to those same types of segregation laws. And so we're seeing it because people, one, because the education system has not talked about this subject in a way that people can fully understand it. You know, it’s, our past, our history, has been romanticized and also tone, told through the perspective, and I often say this, told through the perspective or the lens of the victor and not the victimized. So we do that, and we try to erase, you know, the residual and ongoing impact of not only those laws, but as far back as colonization, all these things that we're seeing patterns of creep back up into the rhetoric, into the political sphere and and the more you keep people uneducated, the more that they fall prey to the propaganda, where they don't understand what word means and what the intended outcome is or supposed to be.

SR Yeah.

EP It's, it's a it's a weird cycle, because if you cut like the history part, like, if you remove information from websites, or you force schools to stop teaching these things, like, it's all connected. 

SR Yes.

EP Like, even though education is its own entity, there's also a whole other story, conversation itself, if you, if you remove that aspect, other other areas of the system, like, don't become as they don't know as much.

ZM Right. Right. 

EP So it's all, it's, it's a human body. Essentially, one organ fails, everything else starts acting funny too.

SR Yeah. 

EP So DEI is the same way.

ZM Yeah.

SR Yeah.

ZM And explaining it to people like that, that it's an it's a, I love how you broke it down in different organs. It's an ecosystem. Everything is connected. 

EP Exactly.

ZM We are all within our society, within our collective, responsible for each other, right? 

EP Yeah.

SR Yeah. 

ZM The way that we talk to the way that we support each other, whether that's a family unit, that whether that's a work unit, community, we're all connected. And I as a practitioner, you know, I'm certified diversity practitioner. Education, to me, is the key, right? And you know, when I'm doing this work, and I do it specifically within the hospitality, events and tourism industry. I've been in spaces where people do ask me that question about, “What is this DEI thing? What is diversity? How does it apply to me as an event professional or in this industry?” And before I get into the business, you know the operations, the decision making that they have and how it relates to that, I do start with those definitions. And one of the key things that I see, when people have become so susceptible to the propaganda, is that they think of diversity as a very binary topic, that it's us versus them, that it's men against women, that it's Black against white, that it’s gay against heterosexual. And it's, it's this pitting against each other when, then, when we get past that part of the conversation, or, as I, you know, unfold, you know, that particular topic I get into, this is something that you're actually doing every single day, is, is designing experiences [where people] feel seen, heard and valued, right? You make decisions on the food that people are going to eat. You make decisions on the, the event being accessible. You make sure that people can hear the speaker, that the speaker has a varied background, so that they're interesting. So all these decisions that you're making are based on making sure that the environment, the experience you're creating, is diverse, equitable and inclusive. Now the ask is that you do so with more intention and more strategic.

SR So that's something that I wanted to ask about. I actually, I do have a thought that I want to share, and I think that, like this industry, particularly the events that we hold, like that, these industry events have such power for a ripple effect, because you bring together all of these people who are involved in this industry, whether they're DMOs, planners, suppliers, they're all going to an event. They see diversity, equity and inclusion in action, applied with like intention, and they see the benefits, and then they can all go back to their companies, especially planners, and then mimic that themselves for all of their attendees, like the, the ripple just grows and grows so, like, it is not to be underestimated the power that planners have to really, really make a positive difference.

ZM Yeah.

SR Like when we say one person can change the world, you really can. 

ZM Yeah.

SR You really can.

ZM And I was telling the beginning how, you know, I went to school, you know, Hospitality, Recreation and Tourism when I was getting my masters, my dissertation, the title of it was, you know, addressing underrepresented communities one event at a time, you know, like, 

SR Nice. 

ZM How can we build sustainable communities through events? And that was the subject that I was focusing on. So it evolved into the, what I do now, but that's the conversation that we need to have.

SR Yes.

ZM Is social sustainability, which leads to environmental sustainability and so forth. 

SR Yeah. So one of the central pillars of your company is insight to implementation. So would you talk a little bit about that? Like, how do we create insight, and what does that process look like from going from insight to implementation, and what does successful implementation look like?

ZM Yeah, absolutely. So you know all of that. You know work and the use of insights implementation began with the course that I built about three, almost four years ago. So that lives with PCMA event Leadership Institute, and it's called the Event DEI strategist course. 

SR Yeah. 

ZM So insight to implementation is a framework. And I highly suggest that anyone who's engaging in this work, and I was, you know, consulting organizations and consulting committees and individuals, is that you need a framework to guide the process, or you will get lost in the weeds and overwhelmed by all the things that you can do. And so the insight, being Phase One, is gathering insight. You have to identify what is the current, you know, status of your supply network, right? So you have a whole bunch of suppliers, and you when you look through that list of suppliers that you're working with, whether they be hotels, whether they be photographers, catering companies, florists. And now let's look down into the demographics of those different companies. You know, what is the size of the company? Are there any small businesses? Are there any Black-owned businesses, women-owned businesses? And ask yourself those questions, gather that insight. So that's how you look at your supplier network. You look internal to your organization. You know, what does your staff look like? You know, what does your clientele look like? So you gather insight to understand how you're currently doing business, and where are there opportunities for growth? And then you move into Phase Two, where, now that you've gathered this insight, you inform, you know, the executive suite, or you inform the particular you know, stakeholder that is asking these questions or that you're planning to work with. So you inform. Then Phase Three is you move into this realm where you're now putting these ideas together, how you can look at those opportunities for growth and make a plan for where you only focus because you're going to find a lot of information in Phase One that you could focus on, but narrow those down to three, no more than five, so that you can actually do the work, not get overwhelmed. And in that template that I use within this framework, there's a parking lot, so you can identify there's other areas that you want to work on, but that they're not the top priority immediately. And then you get into implementation. You start implementing these things and seeing where, you know, you have enough resources or you don't, you know, whether those resources are money, whether it's the capacity of your team, the knowledge of your team. And you assess yourself through this implementation. And then, as you are implementing, of course, you have to, you know, make adjustments. You have to either invest more money, more time, more capacity, and things like that, and then as you refine that implementation, you iterate. So, to repeat it, back over again, you're constantly gathering insight. You're constantly informing what worked, what you should sustain, what you should improve on. You're constantly innovating. You're constantly implementing. And it's, you know, my favorite number is eight, so I draw it like the infinity symbol. It's a journey. It's not a destination. You don’t say, “Oh, we tried it. It didn't work out.” You know. You say, “What do we need to do better the next time?” And so I use that framework to guide my clients through a process, so I can ask them, you know, what did you implement? And you know, who was involved, who was informed? Things like that. And so the frameworks are very helpful. And as people have taken this course over the last four years, I often, because we have a forum which they can engage with each week. It's a seven week asynchronous course, and people often write dissertations, or they're like light bulbs have just went off right like now, I can take this and use this framework to really put forth the ideas that I've had about what it looks like to be committed as a company.

EP Right.

ZM Because I always see people express their commitment, but they're not intentional with it. 

SR Yeah.

ZM So that framework allows them to be intentional.

SR Yes.

EP So in your opinion, how can this industry be more intentional? Because I, the events industry is the whole point of it, is people coming together. That's the, that's the main theme. So if, if, if DEI is, like, kind of in this weird spotlight of like, you know, do we want to engage with, do want to talk about, do we want to have it? Someone I spoke to said that it's just, it supports your ROI, because that's really what you want.

SR Yes.

EP It's all about money at the end of the day, really, if we’re being honest. So embracing DEI supports that.

ZM Right, right.

SR Yeah.

EP So, in your opinion, where do, where do you see that heading?

ZM I smile because you said the ROI, right? And I know that so many people understand that it is about making money. That's great. We all need income to be able to enjoy our leisure activities and to take care of our fixed, you know, things that we you know, our mortgage, our car notes and all that kind of but within this industry, we have to understand, you know, the the economic impact of our industry, globally and domestically. And we're, we're a couple of weeks away from, actually, not even a week. We're about a week away from Global Meetings Industry Day.

SR Yep.

EP Mhm, Mhm.

ZM Which talks about our industry. So you have to finish the sentence. It's about making money. Where does that money go? You know>

EP Right, right.

ZM How does that money benefit, the destinations, the companies, the community. And that goes back to my thesis, right? If we understand that one event that has, I think the report says 75 attendees creates seven jobs, right? And I think I have my numbers off, but I can pull up that information. But you're looking at, you know, the staff that's running the venue. You're looking at the catering company, you're looking at the photographer, you're looking at all the jobs that are created. And if those jobs are created within a community, you're not only in, brought income to those individuals, they can bring us back into their community, and you're also bring foot traffic into that destination. So, they're spending at hotels or spending at restaurants, right? So, when we talk about, you know, our work in this industry as an ecosystem, our events are giving back to those destinations, shining a light onto that destination, bringing places, bringing people to places they may have never been, learning about the history, learning about the challenges, the beauty, all of that, you know, within an event. And so it's so much more than just what is happening within your event. It's the impact that event makes, it’s that ripple effect. You mentioned it earlier, right? The ripple effect that an event has. Oftentimes, I don't think an event planner who's caught up in their checklist with their hotel, they often understand that ripple effect and want the conversation about DEI, Do you understand, in my thesis, one of the things I wrote about was the Grand Prix in Baltimore, and so it's great to talk about how fast the cars are and how many attendees and people love the Grand Prix. But what we weren't talking about was how many streets had to be cut off during the Grand Prix. And when streets are blocked, it prevents people from getting to their medical appointments and getting to their jobs. And so how we as event planners become aware of the impact that we have on these destinations, both in positive and negative ways, so that we make better and in more informed decisions.

SR Absolutely, and I would say that Destinations International is a great resource for this. They, speaking to you know, the impact that events can have in a destination. So by the time that this episode comes out, we'll actually be coming up on the 2025 annual conference in Chicago, but I was there last year at the 2024 in Tampa Bay, and following that conference, they released a Tampa Bay Case Study on the immense impact that the event had on the community, not only in terms of, you know, like bringing, like driving economic growth in the community, creating jobs, getting people to dine out at restaurants and experience the locale. You know, like, people got connected with the culture. Like, one of the things that's huge in Tampa Bay is this Cuban culture that a lot of people were concerned about coming to Tampa Bay because there were these tense political discussions. And, like, this tense political atmosphere. And people were like, “I don't really want to go to Tampa Bay because I don't agree with the politics.” And then they come and they they see this massive Cuban culture, and they never would have known about that if they hadn't gone out there. Like, that's what meeting planners do, I think, like, at the end of the day, and maybe, maybe this, it makes me naive. I don't really care. I think that, yes, it's about money, but, like, there are so many ways you can make money. Why are you a meeting planner? You know, like, like you chose to make money by way of helping people and helping people feel connected, and helping people to experience the mind-opening, eye-opening experience of travel and connecting to a destination authentically. So, yeah, I'll get off my soapbox now. But I just, yea.,

ZM No, I love it. You know, you speak to something that's very important. We talk about the hierarchy of needs, right, making money is actually not on top of those needs. It's honestly what you can do with that money, or what comes with making that money, right? The communities that you can build, that sense of belonging that people yearn for, really fulfilled in your day-to-day activities. And so as much as people have their own personal bottom line, there's things that are associated with that. And if you're a part of a company that isn't inclusive of people within the workplace and to whom it serves, that's where people struggle, and they have internal conflict with doing that work, whether they admit that publicly or not. 

SR Yeah. So I think that this is a topic where supplier diversity plays a really big role, and I know that you're a proponent of that, so that's why I'm asking you about this. But let's talk about supplier diversity in the impact that it makes.

ZM Yeah, you know, I spoke to it briefly earlier and as I was on my own journey, like we're all on this journey of learning about ourselves. Because even in the course I talk about like the first week, the first two weeks are really understanding history, but also checking your own emotional intelligence, having some self-awareness, having social awareness. But as I was on my journey, I initially started my business more focused on Black and brown businesses, and I will always, forever be focused on, you know, the melanated and marginalized right, because of the history of this country, and when you look across, you know, the communities, it is Black and brown communities that are disproportionately impacted, right? And so when we bring that into the conversation around businesses, you know, I was having that conversation where I just wanted to see more Black and brown faces within MPI, with, at the events, because we weren't getting the information that we needed. And so that led to a panel discussion. And I remember this vividly. We were at, I think, the Julia Morgan Ballroom in San Francisco, and I was on a panel with Edward Perotti,

EP Mmm! I know him.

ZM Gary Murakami. Yeah. Lori Pugh like, there was just so many people on the—not Lori Pugh, I'm getting, Lori's with MPI, but I don’t remember Lori's last name, but we were on this panel talking about diversity, equity and inclusion. Of course, I, again, I was coming from that lens of, I need to get more Black and brown faces here. Like I said, we'll, it’s forever a mission. But after we had the conversation, speaking through the LGBTQ lens for Gary and Edward, talking from the Asian lens, Gary was representing that, we were just talking about all kinds of topics. When we got off stage, out of my left side, I could see my salad. I was so hungry, I wanted to eat. And out of the right side, I saw a line of people who in that line, there were people with tattoos. There were women, there were gay people, there were just people who had all kinds of input based on the conversation. They were like, you know, some people won't hire me because I have tattoos. Some people won't hire me because, you know, I'm blonde, and they think I'm not this. And there's all these biases they were presenting, you know, and I'm like, food over there, but I'm so intrigued that so many people have so much to say about not being seen, valued and heard, and so my ability as an advocate beginning, began to expand. You know, I started to feel more like, if you're familiar with Fred Hampton, it was the movement of the Rainbow Coalition, that we are together, we are stronger, right, that we have the same challenges. You may be a white woman and I'm a Black woman, and while our different nuanced experiences and challenges may be different, by us working together, we get more done, right? And so my, it evolved, right? And so that gets me to how I got to supplier diversity, because I realized that in order to have this conversation as a practitioner within this space, I had to speak to business folks. And I would do presentations in the beginning that would say diversity, equity and inclusion in the marquee, and a specific group of people would get up and leave, and that would be the finance team. They'd be like, “Okay, this conversation doesn't pertain to me.” But then I started changing the title of my presentation to be more inclusive, and I said, “How can I make you money, save you money, and help you stop losing money?” The finance people stop leaving, right? And so they're sitting there workshop, and we're talking through supplier diversity. How if, you know, business is supposed to be competitive, and when is the last time that you looked at your suppliers to make sure not only are their prices you know, are they fitting with your budget and your bottom line, but are their services also exceeding the expectations of your clients, you know, and what, and what are the demographics of the companies that you're working with? Are you sending out this RFP to more businesses who may be innovative? Who are, you know, you know, trying to compete to get into the market, but because you're just doing the same, you know, event over and over again, clients are just like, “Okay, I'm gonna come to the event because I'm used to coming.” But by bringing in more vendors, more diverse suppliers, you get innovative ideas and creativity. And so, I started, you know, really talking about supplier diversity as a way to introduce the conversation around diversity, equity and inclusion in a more strategic way. And it allowed me to then put forth that that framework, insight to implementation. Let me gather that insight about your supplier diversity, you know, network, or if you have, you know, a preferred vendor list. Okay, you have this preferred vendor list of caterers, but only, you know, demographics that are on your preferred catering list are large, white-owned businesses. And here's an opportunity, because in the location that you're in, like starting with like the Oakland Museum, you're the community around here are Filipino, they're Indian, and when I look at your menu, none of those catering companies know how to best serve, you know ethnic foods, and so you're missing out on clients and opportunities. So by diversifying your, you know, your catering list, you could actually attract clients from different groups. And if you know anything about Southeast Asians in their weddings, they're very large, and they're multiple days. So if you're the person, if you're the person who is talking about the impact on your ROI or your bottom line, you might want to get clients who are from different ethnic groups. And then, in keeping with that, you know, when I worked with, you know, Indian weddings, you know, the it would be the auntie and the uncle who are planning the event, and they didn't trust everybody to plan that event, because there's a lot of culture traditions that are involved, and a lot of event planners weren't well best, you know, you know, they weren't well educated, or they, they didn't know about those traditions and cultures. They were trying to plan those events through a very Eurocentric or Western lens. And so here were opportunities that supplier diversity, you know, introduced, you know, engaging with more businesses across, you know, ethnic demographics, diversifying that that preferred vendor list, and also educating event planners that there's more different types of wedding traditions than what you see within European cultures. And so that just really, again, light bulbs went off in people's brains. And then I got to connect to the history of supplier diversity, which started all the way back in 1970s after the assassination of Dr King. So it just, it became a way that I could have a really fruitful conversation with people, because they could do the work on their own. They could look at their preferred vendor list and be like, “Oh my gosh, I'm leaving money on the table.”

EP So for folks who that's not their issue, like, it's not ROI, they just, like, have this sense of like, “DEI bad,” like, That's it, like, that's just their brick in the road, and they're not moving from it. How, how do we engage those people to be like, Hey, let's talk about this at least, so that we can come to some kind of, at least, understanding that DEI isn't like the boogeyman, 

SR Yeah.

EP Like it's not come, steal your job or anything. It's just it actually makes business better. So how do we change the narrative so that it's not this, this, this, these buzzwords that invoke emotion and not logic?

SR And why are we so hung up on the buzzwords?

EP Yeah, well, it's easy, 

SR Yes, yes.

ZM um, there's a quote that I that I use, I love to use quotes, because I think quotes like movie clips, like images, do evoke emotion and really spark conversations between so the one quote that I loved, one of many, is by James Baldwin, civil rights advocate, author, yeah, Harlem Renaissance, you know, amazing. And he says, and I probably won't say it verbatim, but the premise of his quote is that we can agree to disagree and still love each other, so long as our disagreement or your disagreement with me is not rooted, and you denying my right to exist. Right? And so when engaging people who are on the fence about the topic of whether or not all people should be included, that equity is beneficial to all of us as a society, that diversity is good for us, economically, socially, and all the things. If they're on the fence because they don't fully understand the acronym DEI, or there have been some subjects that have been introduced and they didn't feel inclusive, we can work with, with that, right? We can have those conversations. But if, if the, the pushback or the apathy is rooted in hate and the denial of people's existence and their right to exist, I'm gonna let you sit with that on your, off to the side, right? Because that's a lot of energy to expel towards hate. But I would still encourage those individuals, because I'm, as an individual, I don't know if we talked about this, but I like to watch Fox News, and I like to watch different media outlets that may not always agree with my values, but I watch them to stay informed and and so reading that conservative news and hearing the different perspectives also led to people who identified as conservative MAGA, MAGA supporters in my inbox on LinkedIn, wanting to have a conversation. And they would chime into my inbox and would say, you know, one individual in particular, “Hey, you seem to have very productive conversations, and I want to talk to you,” and I said, “Okay, we can establish some boundaries.” And that boundaries were, that boundary was rooted in that James Baldwin quote, you know, I'll gladly point to documentaries. You can watch movies that you can watch conversations, articles, all of that. But my boundary is when you start, you know, degrading or disrespecting any identity and believe that they don't have a right to exist. And so by the end of the conversation, did I change his entire way of thinking? No. I planted some seeds and encouraged and challenged him to do, do the work, you know, challenge your biases. Stop confirming them. You know, if I, as a practitioner, can listen to Fox News and read other conservative articles, you do the same. You go read liberal information, read the data, you know, and make an informed decision, not based on someone trying to convince you to, and we talked about it, you know, this whole idea of being woke being negative, I had to ask myself the question, when people say that woke was a negative thing or being negative, I want constituents of any particular state or, you know, region to ask themselves, why does my leaders, or why does a politician want me to be asleep? What are they doing.

EP That. That.

ZM My eyes right? What laws are being passed that are going to hurt me having the ability to purchase eggs? Okay, my favorite eggs are now $9.90. My favorite eggs, and I have never seen them so expensive, and so that must have happened when I was asleep. So I want to be woke. I want to be awake and aware. And that's not a negative thing, because if that means educated, I'm doing some critical thinking, I'm engaging in critical dialog, and that's negative to you, then you're not my people.

SR Yeah, I think, I think you make a really important point linking woke to being awake, because I think, like, so many times, like with slang, like, we forget, like, where the word comes from, but woke literally means to, like, be awake, to be aware. And I admire you for having these conversations with people who disagree with you, who you disagree with, and reading these new outlets, because, like, I think that existing in an echo chamber is so dangerous.

ZM Yes.

SR And I think a lot of us do, and it's like, it's just, I think it's something that, like, I learned, like a high school teacher said once in a class, like a history class or something that like, if you aren't having conversations with people that disagree with you, or that you disagree with and you're just talking to people that you agree with, you are not going to learn and you are not going to grow.

ZM Absolutely, absolutely, I do this exercise, again, I love interactive exercises because this in this space where I'm trying to educate people. Education is not where I talk at you and tell you what to think. It's me encouraging you to think critically about any, any topic. And so one of the exercises is an ABC exercise, and it's the affinity bias chart, right? And so I have people take out a blank page, and on the top, you know, they list out people who are within their circle of influence, right? And so you list out six individuals you know that you're really close to, that you call and talk to you. You could do, you your circle of influence, you could be, you could look at the movies that you watch and the directors of those movies. You could look at books, and the authors of those books list out their names. On the left side, there's a column, and it's demographic information, from gender, from generation or age, disability or ability, you know, sexual orientation, just list all the differences, and I really focus on federal, federally-protected characteristics that people understand there's laws that had to be passed in order to protect people based on the religion that they practice, and so really use that list. Now the exercise is to look at each individual person within your circle of influence and look at their demographic information. Once you complete the chart, step back and look at the patterns. Are all the people within your circle of influence within the same generation or age? And are you that person who says, “Well, back in my day, when, when I was younger,” Well, if you're not talking to younger people, you know nothing about them, like I really respect my 20-year-old son, Jordan, right? He. 20, he go, he goes to college, and when he speaks, I listen to him, not from a perspective of “I know more because I'm older than you,” but what wisdom can he share with me? And same thing, go back to that chart again. And you ask yourself, am I only around white people? Am I only around conservatives? Am I only around liberals? Even for liberals or people who are you know all about human rights. You also have to be around people who are in opposition of people's human rights, again, with the boundary that you set to protect your peace, but you have to hear their perspective like J.D. Vance has a movie “The Hillbilly Elegy.” Right? I watched it. I watched it with an open mind to, I want to know what is life like in the Appalachian Mountains, right? I don't know that community. What resources are they lacking, and what is the propaganda being pushed to people who are fighting to have jobs and healthcare, right? If we connect it back to history, we understand that what's being pushed to them is that it is the immigrants who are taking your jobs, it's Black people who are taking your jobs. So if I can pit you against each other, right? And so that chart helps you understand the thinking of the people within your circle of influence and why you might live in an echo chamber. Now, how and what are you going to do to break out of that echo chamber, is you're going to diversify, just like your supplier diversity list or a preferred vendor, you're going to diversify your circle of influence, or the books that you read, the movies that you watch, the news outlets that you go to, so that you can actually seek to challenge your biases and not to confirm them. And so that helps us. Now that's education. Education is questioning what you're learning, not just to memorize what somebody is telling you, but to actually process and be like, I have more questions. You know. So I always encourage doing that exercise. And again, when people do the exercise, whether in an in-person workshop that I've done many times or online, the dissertations that I receive, the light bulbs that go off for people, the tears that I've seen people in, because they're like, I never knew some of these things that you're presenting. I never knew about Jim Crow Laws. I never knew about the incarceration system. I never knew that people in Georgia only get paid $7.25 an hour. I never knew, you know, whatever, they didn't know, it wasn't in their face, because that's almost by design, right?

SR Yeah, once again, I think I'll just reiterate what Zoe said earlier, when we work together, when we talk to each other, when we work together, we get so much more done.

ZM Yes, yeah.

SR We, we have so much more power.

ZM Absolutely, I do the visual of a fist, right? And so if you hold out your hand, and you know, just individual fingers, and you have to, you know, fight for your life, and you just try to punch with your thumb, or you punch with your index finger. What will happen to those individual fingers? You'll more than likely break them or stub them, really bad, and it hurts. But collectively, if as individuals, if we represent that each finger in the hand, and we come together, and that's where you see that representation of the fist, is that power to the people, right? We are now a force to reckon with, and we have more power in this fist. Bruce Lee used to just do one quick punch. It was more powerful than just the pinky operating by itself. So that is what the whole collective and the community, and you know us talking about civil rights, is that everyone deserves to be seen, valued and heard, right? And for those who are disproportionately impacted, their voices are loud because it is, there's a desperate need to make sure that I can sustain within my community, I can sustain within my identity and then I'm not denied the right to exist. And so we do that work within the meetings and events space by bringing people together to be educated on those topics, to see individuals within their community or outside of their community, and learn that they are human beings.

SR Right.

EP Right. Yeah. Definitely.

ZM That’s what it comes down to.

EP We’re all just humans trying to have meetings. Why can't we just do that?

[laughter]

EP Why do we have to make it so complicated? We're human. 

ZM We are complex humans, but it's just, it's sad to me, like I I had this conversation with a colleague, and I'm just, I'm sometimes I'm just, I'm a loss for words. That's exactly what I feel. I don't know why people have so much hate in their heart, you know? And I just, I just want to breathe. I want to exist. I want to interact with people, and eat, and travel and sleep. I love taking a good nap, and I don't want to constantly have to think about how much somebody hates me when I enter into a room, all because of some socially constructed, you know, identity that has created these barriers.

EP Right. Like so we're all people at the end of the day, it's a matter of spin and whatever else is going outside, outside of the meetings industry that is really causing all the stress of it unfortunately, and I really hope.

ZM Yeah we are a people centric business, we're 

EP Yes.

ZM A people-centric industry. 

EP Yeah, we are. 

ZM We don’t have to have this conversation, because we are constantly corralling people. You know.

EP Yeah.

SR I would like to talk a little bit about, you know, how we can incorporate more authentic DEI, in diversity, equity and inclusion. I'm going to actually start seeing the whole adage, how can we authentically incorporate diversity, equity and inclusion into an event space like, think about like a hypothetical event. So when you walk into an event like, what are some of the things that tells you like this event is doing diversity, equity and inclusion, authentically, like, with intention?

ZM Yeah, it starts before anybody even arrives at the event. Right? For those that have cognitive disabilities or that you know, have sight or hearing, you know, challenges that they experience. It starts with the registration page right? It starts with the colors that you're using, the font that you're using the navigation to get around. The registration, the information that lets me know that you know, the safety protocols, the transportation protocols. What kind of, on the registration form does it, does it ask about my food preferences and restrictions? You know, it begins there. And then, when people arrive into a space, or even a destination, are people aware of the history of the destination? That matters, right? And you know, if it's a building that's right across from a statue that has some historical, you know, you know. baggage attached to it. If you, are you aware of the placement of your venue and whose land is it on? Is it Indigenous land? Do you know, are you paying respect to whose land it is? Right when you walk in, physically to a space, sound matters, lights matter. You know the warmth of the facility, like, it, get into those details. And as event planners, we're thinking about all these things, right? How security engages with people, right? Are you assuming that the person who's in sneakers is invited into the space, and the person who's in, you know, maybe not dressed up in business casual, isn't? Or is color of skin, preventing, you know, the way that you engage people at registration or security, you know, and so it gets into those details. But overall, when you're at an event, and we're looking at breakout sessions, or we're looking at the general and main stage, the people who are, you know, delivering the content, the speakers and how they're represented, are they from different, you know, backgrounds and identity groups? And the way the content is delivered, if it's people who are speaking different languages, do we have captions on the screen? Do we have, you know, all, we could go through every single detail, from the speakers to food and beverage to location, giving people time to rest. That had, became a really big thing post-COVID, where instead of having these back-to-back sessions where people are drained and exhausted at the end of the day, people want time to just sit and breathe and interact with each other, or even go back to their hotel room and take a nap. 

SR I love that. 

EP Yeah. I love a good nap during an event.

SR Me too.

ZM And so what it what it does, and to some people, it can feel overwhelming, but these are all tells that we're thinking about, and this is why you have a team, who is a subject matter expert in a particular area, right, someone who's managing registration, and you're thinking about, what is that experience that, you know, these different personas, these different identities, have when they come up to registration, what is the tone of the people who are delivering customer service, right? And so we have to think through these details. And we're thinking about the details, not just through the lens of one identity, you know we have to think about the impact. And you know what hinders somebody having a good experience, and what, you know, provides an accessible experience, we just, it is it is our responsibility as an event planner, and that is meeting the needs of our stakeholders, and every stakeholder, from your attendees to the vendors, to the speakers, your team, right? There's all different types of stakeholders, and we have to engage them as human beings who want to seen, heard and valued. Yeah. So I walk through event planners. I walk through this with event planners, with companies who are suppliers to think through the details. And usually, you know, it gets down to one particular group. I remember working with an organization who, a large part of their attendees were formerly incarcerated. And so a lot of times when someone has been formerly incarcerated, when they come out, they don't have an ID, Now, part of the check-in process at a hotel—what do they ask you for? Right? A credit card and an ID. Now that person at, you know, who's formerly incarcerated doesn't want to be like, “Hey, I was just locked up 10 days ago and I don't have an ID,” because what is that reaction going to be from that lobby host or that, you know? And so they wanted to figure out ways to reduce that particular experience, like how to reduce the fear and trepidation, the experience, and so we talk through those details. It's not about always having the answers. It's the fact that you have to address that that conflict exists, right? And what is the training that we need, to demystify that that particular conflict? But what we're used to as people is we avoid conflict. “Let's just not talk about it now,” like, “It doesn't exist.” When you avoid conflict, it is conflict, right? And so we just train people to think about social equity responses. How do you train the hotel? How do you train your staff? And how do you by working together with your supplier, with your team, create the most inclusive and equitable experience for each of your guests? And then when they give you feedback that their experience was not the greatest, or it was great, what do you do with that information? 

SR Mhm, mhm, I think it's interesting when you talk about conflict and how we avoid it. I think that, like when we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, we have some people that are like huge proponents of it, and they're doing great work. We have some people that don't even want to hear it, but then I think the vast majority of people are in the middle, somewhere along this line, spectrum. And I think that, like, when people feel uncomfortable talking about DEI, maybe we can reframe that as like, it's a signal that there is conflict.

ZM Mhm.

SR Like, we can't shy away from conflict if we want to make progress.

ZM Yeah, I, you know, when I think about it from that lens, right? A lot of people, especially now in this time, you're those who are hesitant to speak up because they could lose their job, you know, they're going through, you know, trying to acquire new clients, and then they're afraid of their reaction and things like that. I think, back again, I connect everything that's currently happening to history, because it has this residual and impact. So, you know, Martin Luther King, Jr. was locked up. And while he was locked up, at one point, he wrote a letter from the Birmingham Jail. And what he spoke to was, you know, that it was the moderate, it was the person in the middle he was most worried about, right? And the reason why he was worried about them is because they’re, again, such a large group. But when you are silent about things that you know are detrimental to our society, you're, you're worse than the person who is an overt racist. You're worse, you know, right? And so in that space of your fear of, of your hesitation, of your “I don't know if I should speak up.” That's exactly when you should speak up. And even while we have this comparison as of late with what's going on, to 1933 Germany, there's that poem that comes up where it says, “First they came for my neighbor and I said nothing. Then they came from my friend, I said nothing. Then they came from my enemy, I said nothing. Then they came for me, and there was nobody to say anything for me,” right? And so we have to make a decision, you know. And I know event planners are like, “Well, I'm not an activist, you know. I don't know how to speak up. I'm not an advocate.” Yes, you are, because for yourself, for your family, you care about their future generations. You care about your parents, your grandparents, your friends, your co-worker, and each one of those individuals are different from you. It doesn't have you know, a white person caring for a Black person, a white person caring for, it’s not just about this binary. It's about humans caring for humans. All of that's going on, like, I try to educate people who think they're so against, like the transgender community. I said, you know, everything that they're trying, you know, to build laws or create or pass laws against the transgender community, those laws are going to be turned right back on, on you as well. So you need to realize that this marginalized community that doesn't have a voice alone, needs our collective voice, because those laws are discriminatory, and those discriminatory laws are going to impact me as well. I care about every single human, you know, and so it is important that we understand the history, and that's why people are sounding the alarms, so they understand how this gradually became something that we talk about now, that's written in our history books. So we have to speak up, because as it begins, and you see it on LinkedIn now. More and more people within the meetings and events industry are talking about it on LinkedIn, because everything that's happening is impacting that ROI, is impacting, the more you start, you know, attacking immigrants and doing all these things. Immigrants make up a large portion of the workforce, right? And people traveling from around the world, if they know they're not safe to come to the US, guess what happens to the economy within the US travel, right? And so we have to connect the dots, whether you think this pertains to you or not, whether you, you don't under, what you don't understand, you go learn. And it does pertain to you. No matter who you are, it pertains to you. It impacts you. And it's a conversation we definitely need to have. 

EP Well [laughter] I don't know if, if I should feel empowered or a little bit nervous, but that was

ZM You’re invited to feel all the emotions, right?

SR Mmm. Mhm.

EP Yeah.

ZM I feel all of them every single day. You know? I feel joy that I'm invited to have this conversation. I feel fear because I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, right? I embrace all my emotions. 

EP We'll walk that road together at this point, because that's the only way we're going to get through it.

[laughter]

SR Absolutely. We’ll walk the road together.

ZM As it started to unfold, and what I mean by that mid-January, as things started to really you know, Oh, okay, this is really happening!” The, one of the first posts that I, that I put on LinkedIn was, “The work is done in community,” right? It's us having the conversations. It's us finding out, hopefully, what we can do within our career, within our workplace, within our community. All the work begins in community, us binding together. That's where I'll begin. That's where I'm continuing, like, now, I was just telling you that I work at Riverside Epicenter, and the reason why, you know, I've been an entrepreneur all my life, my life after the military, let me, you know, I have many lives, like I said, and I was an entrepreneur for 10 years, and I took this role because now I get to be a part of something bigger than myself that is a physical location, and I get to be a resource. I get to go out to the community and say, “Oh, you need to plan an event? have this beautiful venue that I want you to see.” And within this space, the team is talented. I get to meet all these amazing people. I don't have to sit in isolation as an entrepreneur, solopreneur, by myself every single day. I can come into a space and meet and greet people and interact with human beings, because that's what I, right, and I get to support a business who more people need to know about. And so again, I align my need for income with my values and with my values.

EP It’s smart. It's very smart. I wish, I wish I embraced that earlier in my life, when I when I was young and didn't know what I believed in. But it's definitely advice that I think the younger, younger folks need to embrace and move forward with. 

SR I do think that you know all of the well, all of the professionals listening to this are in careers where they align their income with their values. Being involved in tourism and hospitality and events like you care about people at its most basic, you know, and you are how you are spending your time every day, making people feel cared for.

ZM Right.

SR You know, that's what it's about.

EP Yeah.

ZM Hospitality, right? 

SR Mhm.

EP All in the name.

SR Hospitality. 

ZM And I mean, that's what it is. I empathy comes from a place empathy versus apathy, right? Empathy comes from a place of putting yourself in someone else's shoes and knowing that that is not the experience that you want to have. So you're not going to give someone else that experience, and you're going to realize the impact of what their experience on them, and you recognize that again, back to the quote with James Baldwin. You know, I do not have the right to deny somebody the right to exist, the right to be human, right? I for, you know, for us. And I haven't met either one of you in person, right? But just from talking to you and reading the article that was written, I know we're like minded, right? In the way that this is common sense to us, right? It's like, Duh, like, yeah,

[laughter]

SR Obviously.

ZM Like human beings, they need love, they need shelter, they need health care, they need a wonderful event to enjoy and interact with people. This is common sense. So our responsibility within the space of it being common sense is to work with people who are on their journey and not act in a way you know, you don't, you don't heal people by, you know, attacking them with a violent or, you know, being defensive about what you believe you realize on a different part of your journey. And they're they're learning. And so asking questions, providing definitions, providing documentaries and resources and books that they can read, and then creating that space where they can ask questions. That's That's what this work is doing. That's the responsibility that I feel when people reach out to me. How can I help them have this conversation? 

EP Well, our last question for you, while we’re talking about questions, is something we ask all our guests at the end of each show, and it's basically, what is in your your, your, your box of resources, your toolbox, what's something that has impacted you or happened to you, or that you've taken from life that has really made you who you are today and helped you kind of deal with all of this.

SR Yeah, what do you want people listening to this episode to walk away with? 

ZM Be curious. That has been a very useful tool in my toolbox, is curiosity, you know, in an industry where, you know, I often say, we have an alphabet soup, right? We have a MPI, the PCMA, the ILIA, you know, like all these acronyms, DEI, we're like, huh, and then we network, people will say all these acronyms, are you a CMP? Do you have your PMP? And I'm like, What? What, can you, Can you tell me what that is? Can you define that? How? How do I get that? How do I get CEs and CECs? And, you know, like, break it down, and then tell me who I should contact and what should I read? Right? I had a lot of curiosity. And so now, 10 years into my career, people who have been in for 30 years is like, how is your network? So, you know, you know, big, or, you know, expansive. I said because I asked a lot of questions, right? I'm very curious. I want to know, what is the difference between PCMA and MPI? What is the difference between site and, you know, this other organization? Who do they serve? Where are they located? You know, how do I build my career? Ask a lot of questions. Do that within your team? Be curious. Curiosity is critically thinking. It is constant education. It's being open and okay with not knowing, because in not knowing, there's an opportunity for growth. So curiosity. Be curious. I'm gonna put that on a t shirt.

SR Once you do, let me know where I can buy one. Yeah? Thank you. 

EP Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let us know, because we'll definitely talk about promoted on the show, and probably wear it. 

[laughter]

ZM I’m gonna tell my friend right now. He makes he does all nice cups, some mugs and some T shirts. 

SR Yes, please.

EP Do it, do it, do it. Thank you so much for being I this. This is better, better than I could have imagined. I honestly loved our talk, and this was even like 10 times that. So thank you.

SR Yes, feeling the full spectrum of emotions, but mostly gratitude. Thank you for being here. Thank you for taking the time to have this conversation. Because we need to have more of these conversations every day, so.

ZM I see behind you, you have plants. And if you look at my logo, I have a little seedling 

EP Aww.

SR Aww.

ZM within my closing statement that says, Let's grow together. 

SR I love that.

EP That’s so cute. I love that.

SR That's a great mantra,

ZM yeah, is that, you know, growth that's constantly seek was

SR absolutely well, I feel like I grew with both of you in this past hour. And dear listener, I hope you feel like you grew with us too.

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EP So I feel like Sara and I kinda switch off on who gets to like, freak out over a certain thing, or what's the word we used,

SR Fan girl. 

EP Fan girl. I feel like I was fan girling a lot in this particular episode. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed this conversation. Zoe is amazing. Like.

SR Ceriously.

EP Can we, like, be besties? Can we just?

SR Eming had already interviewed her before she asked her to come. Onto this podcast, and she told me, you know, like, Sarah, you are gonna love so. And I was like, okay, and I did some research, like, looked into her background, and I was like, this person, seems pretty awesome. And then I sat down for this podcast episode, and I was just blown away. She is incredible. So many things, beautifully said. And I mean, like, I think that she is just a fantastic educator and advocate, and she is doing really, really, really crucial work. 

EP So, yeah, it's great when you meet people who are, like, doing the work, but like doing it, like intentionally, and like, they're just hitting, like, nails on like a wall just, like, bam, bam.

SR Yes.

EP Like, I want to be you when I grow up. Yeah, no, I'm, like, older. But, you know, one great thing she said that I thought I was gonna say in the show, but I didn't say live, was that, like, you know, it's good to have like, diverse, like, people, like, younger, older, and I think our show specifically, like, I'm Grandma, that's fine, and you're a Gen Z, like, it's fine. Like,

SR You're a millennial.

EP Grandma, sure.

SR Okay.

EP Not an actual grandma. But, you know, we, we intentionally created the show to have like a range, like we wanted to have like a diverse sense of like, you know, from different groups, different ages, different ways of life. And I really hope, at least. I hope our audience sees that and that we're trying, we're trying to, like, keep it, not just like one note. So, we hope you enjoy this episode.

SR And thank you for listening. Remember to be curious and that you belong here. 

EP You do belong here. And the next time you see Sara on the show, she will be recording from Seattle. 

SR Yes!

EP Different background.

SR Yes.

EP That’s not it.

SR This is also an episode with some technical difficulties. 

EP Yes, we have edited out, which you'll probably see if you see the visual part of this episode, it's fine, but in the meantime, we'll see you next week, Sara in Seattle, and you belong here, once again.

SR Thank you for listening.

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