St. Brendan's Podcast
The St. Brendan's Podcast exists to equip you with rigorous, practicable, and affordable Christian education for many generations to come.
St. Brendan's Podcast
Redefining Success: The True Goal of Christian Education
If challenged to defend it in your own words, what would you claim is the "goal" of a bona fide Christian education?
What are you hoping this education will achieve for your children?
Will it land them a high paying job? Will it secure a life of pleasure and ease? Will it produce a full-ride basketball scholarship?
What will determine success or failure at the end of the day?
In this episode of the St. Brendan's Podcast, we will argue that we are aiming at nothing less than making our children committed disciples of Jesus Christ. We don't feel bad owning that, and neither should you!
If we are to provide a truly Christian education for our kids, then we must also have a truly Christian goal FOR that education.
In short, we don't want our children to gain the world only to lose their souls; we want them to emerge on the other side of this paideia as Christians.
P.S. Did we miss you at the 2024 NCP Conference? Feeling a little FOMO? Don't worry–we have you covered. Simply follow this link over to our St. Brendan's Patreon channel for the link to all the conference talks. We want you to be equipped to build Christian boroughs in your place with your people.
Many of us remember St Augustine as a veritable titan of the Christian faith, though on this side of his story, at least from the human vantage point, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that this almost wasn't the case. Born in North Africa to a wishy-washy father, patrick, and a Christian mother, monica, his early life was wasting away. While his secular education was severe and sharpening, equipping him in the lofty ideals of Roman rhetoric, it was initially used to drive him away from faith in Christ, first to Manichaeism and later to Neoplatonism. Augustine was following the way of the world, the flesh and the devil. His Christian mother was praying for him all this time and presumably instructing him too. Her goal was nothing less than his conversion that he would repent and thoroughly embrace the Christian faith. Imagine if this hadn't happened. Imagine if he had not heard the pick up and read in the garden. Imagine if he had listened to the applause all around him amidst his fornications and continued to relish the well-done, well-done of the crowd.
Speaker 1:Augustine exemplifies our dilemma perfectly. He magnifies the issue at hand, especially as we remember him tottering on the edge of Christianity, with his faith held in the balance. His parents prioritized his education and he was pushed to train with the best. Patrick and Monica made many sacrifices to ensure they expanded upon his innate abilities. His education was rigorous and elite, but for what? That he might eventually secure a high-paying career as a Roman official. Was it worth it for him to gain the world only to lose his soul? Was it worth it for him to gain the world only to lose his soul? Thankfully for him and for us, Augustine did not continue in his foolish ways. God plucked him out of his misery and brought him to a robust faith in Christ. He became the most eminent theologian of the late 4th and early 5th centuries. He used his prior training in rhetoric and his creative genius to synthesize and interact with the work of the early church fathers. Like Aeneas, emerging from the flames with his father on his back, augustine bore the weight of the early Christian tradition and carried it into the medieval period. Augustine was the premier theologian that everyone is still fighting over today. Everyone wants to have the weight of Augustine behind their opinions.
Speaker 1:As we consider the precarious trajectory of his early life, it brings up some important questions, questions that need answering. What is the goal of education and, specifically for our purposes, what is the goal of Christian education Is the goal? A high-paying job Is the goal? To secure a life of pleasure and ease? Is the goal? A high-paying job Is the goal? To secure a life of pleasure and ease? Is the goal a full-ride basketball scholarship? Really, what is it? What is the main thing we are aiming at for our children? What will determine success or failure at the end of the day? Back to Augustine if he had been given the best training the Roman world had to offer, if he was paid well as a teacher of rhetoric or a high-class Roman official, would that have been a success? As we consider a Christian paideia a Christian education, I would say no. Remember.
Speaker 1:Christian education is a subset of Christian discipleship.
Speaker 1:Paideia serves a clear end Christian discipleship. Paideia serves a clear end. Christian education pursues a clear goal. In making disciples, we are aiming for nothing less than the full conversion of our children from death, decay and misery to life, vibrance and eternal joy in Jesus Christ. We want to see that metanoia, the change of mind, the turning of the soul from death and darkness to life and light. This is why Paul can say in Galatians 4 that he is in the pain of childbirth until Christ is formed in them In discipleship and in Christian education as a major component of that discipleship. We are aiming at nothing less than the new man, totally transformed from bottom to top, nothing less than the new man totally transformed from bottom to top, root to fruit, because they now love the Lord Jesus Christ. This is our aim, this is our target. Anything else falls short of the ultimate goal we have for our children life in Christ. Welcome to the St Brendan's podcast, where we exist to equip you with rigorous, practicable and affordable Christian education for many generations to come.
Speaker 2:Welcome to this episode of the St Brendan's Podcast. I am one of your hosts, eric Kahn, joined today by Headmaster Pastor Kevin. Love Kevin. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm great, kevin, we just had our. What year did we just finish? Is this three? We just finished our third year. Third year, kids did great, so we had. It was fun. What do you call it? Recital night, recitation night Recitation night Recitation. Everybody did amazingly well.
Speaker 1:School's growing you made the comment in your. Is that a commencement speech? Yes, I was calling it my vision speech in a way, because I was trying to trace you know, where have we been, when are we at today and where are we going Right? That was a big part of it.
Speaker 2:But I love this, you know, being here. I think we were here in the middle of year one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you guys came in. December or so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. It's amazing how much the school has grown.
Speaker 1:It has. Well, not just in size, because that's one thing, right, you can, you know, count noses, in a way, you can say how many kids do we have in the seats. But more than that, we've grown from the inside right, maturing as teachers, maturing as an administrative staff, maturing in our culture here at this church and in the school, so that even more than the numbers the numbers are okay, that's good, right, you're helping more people, that's what you're looking at with numbers. But more than that, it's the core, it's the culture, it's the vision of the school and what we're actually trying to aim for. It's super encouraging.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fun, yeah, and kind of the strength of the students. You get students who are they understand the system, they're more bought in, but parents being bought in as well kind of goes to the cold open. I think with Augustine and I was thinking about it. I recently was reading Bad Therapy and it's talking about Abigail Schreier talking about how psychotherapy has infiltrated youth. But she has this really interesting chapter on education and SEL, social emotional learning. But it was funny because as a secular person she even pointed out she said I think there's this reality where the person who's most influential in a child's life is actually the parent.
Speaker 1:Whoa, I know.
Speaker 2:It was like Surprise, all this study and you came to a fundamental reality of God's created world. Yeah, Profound.
Speaker 1:This is again going back to the Christian who is equipped with God's word is going to be so much more fruitful in life and in academics and in research. And all of that because they, they have the. They have the cheat code just given to them from the beginning. Right, it's like you didn't have to get your PhD to figure that out. You, if you were raised by a good father and mother who loved you and were Christians, that's, that's easy to see, right? The person who was most influential in my life, those were my mom and my dad. Of course. What do you mean? It wasn't my school teacher, it was my mom and my dad. They were the most formative in my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so important and especially as we think about today in the goals, we're continuing, I guess, with the goals of Christian education. One of the things I want to throw out there. I saw this this week and I thought it was really interesting because of sort of how it pictures the changing tide of how people are thinking about education. So this was President Bukele in El Salvador and he said quote every last trace of gender ideology in public schools and wokeness and universities in El Salvador needs to be stamped out. And he said he says the point of public education in El Salvador will be to educate, revitalize civilization, religion and the household. Wow, so I was like wow, this is crazy, because 10 years ago I don't think people were having this conversation, no, so maybe more now than ever, what we're about to talk about is so pivotal, especially for christian parents to think about. What is the point of this thing that we take for granted, which is education?
Speaker 1:what was he? The one that just recently they, they had you know kind of the the gang member flare up and then he sent out the soldiers. Was it, was it? This guy I I clicked on his profile and, uh, for his description, twitter, it just says philosopher, king, philosopher king Right.
Speaker 1:Which is really interesting because that goes back to this idea Obviously it's not original with him but especially made famous through Plato. Right, where you had this in a way these students who are going through this paideia were being trained to be the philosopher king. Right. They were, in a way, you were awaiting the philosopher king, the man who could come in in El Salvador and just say, yeah, we're not doing it like that anymore. Oh, like our streets are overrun with gang members, I can solve that.
Speaker 1:I'll solve that by next Monday, you'll be safe in the streets, don't worry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. One of the plugs I have to give too, by the way, from recitation night we had a student do the declaration of independence but read in such a fashion that was. It made me think this is sort of what we're aiming at with the good man who can speak well, yeah, and thinking well. If you change the way you think about the principles of education, it creates a very different kind of student. And then you're talking about future philosopher, kings, future leaders, and you're thinking about that in a very different way than you know what the modern education system does.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, and for our school, one thing that's, you know, been really fun just to watch is a student like that who let's be completely clear, our students were not born expert rhetoricians.
Speaker 2:No, super eloquent, we don't come out of the womb, though that's not how it works, right?
Speaker 1:I believe it was Quintilian who was saying the best way to practice rhetoric is not by reading a bunch of books. It's not. It's by actually practicing it ground floor level, where you're speaking to other people and practicing, you know, landing this kind of imagery versus that metaphor, right. You're learning how to speak on your feet, you're able to receive questions, you're able to pivot depending on how you saw that person make a face. Oh wait, they didn't understand what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:I'm actually going to lean into that idea a little bit more. You don't get that just by reading books. You get that through practice. So one thing that we do three times a year is we have our recitation night, right, which is where you have students from first grade all the way up through 12th grade who have prepared something. Sometimes it's, you know, just a few sentences, a few lines. For that student that you're referring to, it was many lines and it was very well prepared. But that takes practice, right? I was so proud of him, I told him I think that was the best one of the night.
Speaker 2:It was unbelievable.
Speaker 1:So well-prepared, but not just in the sense that he could stand there rigid and say it word for word, line for line. But he delivered it well, yes, right, and you don't get that except through practice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so pivotal. And again, as we're thinking about what is the culture shaping forces in a community, it was just a good example to me because I saw that and I was like this shapes culture. You know who else saw it?
Speaker 1:The first graders.
Speaker 2:You know who else saw it the?
Speaker 1:second graders.
Speaker 1:Yeah, third graders, this is what we're aiming at they all saw an older student do that, so that student is in eighth grade. They saw an eighth grader do that who just crushed it, knocked it out of the park, right, and they say I want to be like that. They're going to go home and their parents are going to say did you hear how well he did? You should be like that, we'll get. Just wait, give it a few years, that's going to be you. Yeah Right, that's so wonderful.
Speaker 1:That's such a good thing for them to get to see and them to get to emulate, which again goes back to the importance of community in this paideia, in this cultural endeavor which is forming a student. It's hard, it takes a lot of work, it's day by day, but it's also this community mindset, in a way, where we're all directed towards this one vision, this aim, and we're all moving in that direction. And we're all directed towards this one vision, this aim, and we're all moving in that direction and we're helping each other, we're spurring each other on, we're sharpening each other, as iron sharpens iron. That's a good thing to have in your community.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so pivotal. Kevin, one of the things I want to do is ask you to give us a quick review. I think we've been through five principles. Yeah, five so far For education.
Speaker 1:We'll jump into the sixth today, but before we get to the sixth, kind of give me just a roadmap of where we've been. Okay, so we're talking Christian education Again, left and right limits, what is a Christian education? It's incredibly helpful for us to pause, for us to linger on this, for us to spend a whole season that's what we're doing for us to spend a whole season talking about Christian education so that we can use that as the springboard, as our primary fundamental principles, so that when we're talking about what kind of school method you use, what kind of teaching methods as well, what are we going to point back to? What are we going to refer back to? We're going to be referring back to our principles. You have to get this straight, you have to get this clear for any of this all to make sense. So, number one we said a Christian education must pour a Christian foundation. Number two we said a Christian education is going to impart a distinctly Christian lens. Again, not just the particular answers, but a whole Christian lens through which they see the world. A Christian education must pursue a Christian scope. That was the one where we talked about paideia. We're saying we're going to use every tool at our disposal to help shape our children into the image of Christ. Then we said, number four Christian education appeals to a Christian standard. So that was the one where we're saying we're raising that flag and in everything in our school we are going to be able to point to that banner in a way and say, yes, that is the final court of appeal. God's word is the final court of appeal. A Christian education is going to instill that in the students, but it's also going to be part of the curriculum. And then last time we talked, christian education must supply Christian teachers. In other words, your teachers are going to have the most contact with your students during the day. Do you want them to be like the reprobate? Do you want them to be like, again, the purple haired feminazi who's telling your child be like me? Well, no, you don't want that. So those are the first five things that we've discussed so far. We have today, and we have one more and then that will wrap up our season together. So seven principles total.
Speaker 1:The thing we need to address today is this problem of what we're actually aiming at. What are we actually aiming at? We have a main priority for our children. We have this goal, which we're going to say, is a Christian goal of actually producing more Christians right, and our children, to actually have our children grow up to become Christians. There's a danger, though, because this is such a monumental task and there's so many different things that you need to do on, you know, on the way up that mountain, you know various different paths that you can take, but all pointed towards that same peak. It's easy to lose the forest for the trees. It's easy to lose that goal or to lose sight of that goal when you're down in the weeds and you get so caught up in all of the means and the methods. So the problem that we're confronting today is that we are actually losing our children, lord willing, not us right, but culturally we are losing our children because we are allowing secondary priorities, even tertiary priorities, to be elevated to the point that they displace the goal of making disciples of Jesus Christ. So let me give you just an example of that, the most obvious.
Speaker 1:Two examples in my mind, and I mentioned this in the cold open as well. One sports. Sports are not bad. Sports are not an inherent evil in themselves. However, there is a very real sense in which you know you can just you can see it right. I played football, I wrestled. I played basketball for a time when I was younger. I did track and field. When I was younger, but especially in high school, was football and wrestling. I was very much shaped by this environment. This is not just me talking speculatively, but I was there, I was in it.
Speaker 1:Many parents will elevate the desire or goal of getting a full ride scholarship for basketball or for swimming or for football or whatever it is for their child where that becomes their main way of defining success or failure in life. Like did you get the scholarship to that D1 school or that D2 school, whatever it is? Did you get that or did you not? Well, they start to point every single aspect of their lives in that direction. All of a sudden, family worship doesn't matter in that direction, all of a sudden, family worship doesn't matter. Honestly, your grades, yeah, they're important, but let's be realistic. You're here to play ball, you're here to play football. That's one example. Sports.
Speaker 1:The other example that just pops up all the time is where we are, both by our actions and by our words, telling our students that the thing that really matters in life is making buckets of money. Right, for you to be successful, moving forward. You need to be a doctor, you need to be a lawyer, you need to be an engineer or you need to be a nurse. Do one of those four things and you'll be all right, because you'll be making a bunch of money, right?
Speaker 1:The thing about all of this is that we can lose sight of the fact that we want our kids to be Christians. That that's actually the main goal of a Christian paideia is that we would educate our children in such a way that they would become Christians. That has to be our principle, in fact. So let's let's just get to it. Principle number six is Christian education must aim at a Christian goal. Christian education must aim at a Christian goal. So, in the macro, when you're looking at this from a high level and an ultimate sense, we are making disciples of Jesus Christ. When you're in public school, honestly, just when you're in the culture around, they want you to be embarrassed to say that. They want you to say something like well, yeah, I'm trying to make my kids Christians, they're going to say you're just indoctrinating your kids.
Speaker 2:Then Well, it's interesting too because I just happened to be reading Oren McIntyre's new book, the Total State, and he refers to the public education, including university, system as the cathedral. And this is strategic because what he's saying is we have this secular, liberal democracy society, but he said it's still fundamentally religious. It has to be, it always is right. But what he says kind of exactly to your point. He said when you look at what, like, say, university is training people to do, it's to go and be part of the managerial elite, go be a part of the bureaucracy. Nowhere in there they want you to breathe in and take in the ideals of secular, pluralistic, syncretistic democracy. That is not the Christian worldview.
Speaker 1:No, they have an image that they're directing you to as well. They have standards Right, even though it might not look like it sometimes, they have standards as well.
Speaker 2:And it's interesting too because, as you mentioned these, you know sports and career. It's sort of like Jesus' command seek first the kingdom, and all these things will be added to you. You know, originally sports were created largely like the YMCA, young Christian Men's Association. It was like let's give our boys some physical things to do, build teamwork and all the values of Christendom. But then we have to realize, like today, that's not what they have become. And so, you know, we have a wrestling program that you facilitate, but it has to fit within this broader aim.
Speaker 1:And that's the point right. Not that secondary goals or tertiary goals are bad they're certainly not but when they become the primary goal.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that means you also have to reevaluate them. So, like you know, if you had a household where, let's say, you have a couple kids and you have these incredible careers and you're chasing the dollar and you're chasing the scholarship, is that you know? I'll use this phrase is that winning, as a Christian, in what we're trying to aim at? Well, not necessarily. In fact, if it's not a part of this broader aim to form Christian disciples, then the answer is just no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you bring up an excellent point. Actually, as we're considering this, there are seasons in life too. We have to recognize that. There have been. Just for me, speaking personally and practically, there have been very busy seasons of life where you're recognizing that this cannot remain forever. It cannot stay like this. So that's just part of life. So you recognize that, but you have to.
Speaker 1:The way you recorrect from that is you are reminding yourself in a very principled way what is my goal, what am I doing and how are my actions contributing towards that goal or taking away from it? You know which actions here in my life or habits or priorities in my life are actually detracting from that main goal, especially if God has blessed you with children to steward. Well, you actually have a responsibility to them. You know, if you didn't have those children let's say you have five kids if you didn't have those five kids, your life would look very different. I recognize that, we can fully acknowledge that. But you do have those children, which means you have the responsibilities that go with that as well. And so you're going to have to continually be reshaping and interrogating your priorities in your life to see in this season of life, is this a forever thing? Is this a long-term thing? Is this a very short-term thing to get me to this goal? But we're going to have to dial it back. We know that that's important, just for any family.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think the evaluation piece is so important because you'll inherit all these things from the culture around you and, as Christians, what we have to do is step back and say, yeah, maybe it would be really hard to say no to some of these things, but we have to look at them and say, wait, does this fit our principle?
Speaker 2:And so one of them could be if we just automatically assume, you know how many, even in the conservative Christian camp, how many people I've talked to and they're like, yeah, we need more women in politics, we need more women CEOs, we need, we need, we need. And you go back and you're like, wait a minute, is that the goal for our girls? And so to change it then, to change what we're aiming at, means that, practically, you're going to have a lot of tough conversations with families, you're going to have a lot of tough conversations with students and you know, think about the girls in our school. Are we telling them, hey, I want you to go be a boss, babe, and crush it in the political arena? Like, are we saying that to our girls? Or are we saying, with Paul, that the primary goal is motherhood? We still believe in education for girls? Obviously, we have a school for them, yeah, but their aim isn't going to be the same as a man who's a provider.
Speaker 2:No it's different and so that means that culturally, this is, you know, the Harrison Bucker thing recently I'm sure you saw that where he's telling college educated women the best you can do is be a mother.
Speaker 1:And there's a big old kerfuffle about that Right.
Speaker 2:But, like, as Christians, we just have to be prepared that when we state our principles and then we state the practical that flows out of them, the culture is going to think you're crazy, you're weird, you know, misogynistic, whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, yeah, they'll give you all the labels you have to have thick skin against that and be courageous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you bring up a great point. Oftentimes these things are pretty simple. Simple, not easy, right? Pretty simple because it's a principled thing that we are saying. We have to just be prepared for that conversation. You have to be prepared to to. You know, let's say you were looking again at your life and you're saying well, man, it's, it's like six days a week with this soccer program. I don't, I don't know if that really fits in with our family's goals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, miss church for tournaments.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So looking at that and saying, wait, that's actually not contributing towards the goal, that's actually taking away from it. That sports program has grown a mind of its own. Now that you're in the competitive league and you're traveling and all that kind of stuff, you might look at that and say, okay, hard conversation, coach, we can be there four days a week, five days a week, and that's what we're able to do. If that doesn't work, I totally understand. I get it, but we won't be able to be on the team.
Speaker 2:It's interesting too. You know, my oldest has been participating in public school the tennis program. But it's really interesting because of the cult of Mormonism. But it's, you know, in many ways a ripoff and copy of Christianity. You can actually find situations in some places where there'll be like a tournament and they're like oh, we have this thing on Sunday. And we'll just say to coach like hey, we have religious obligation, and they're like great.
Speaker 1:Can I tell you something embarrassing? Yeah, when I was younger I remember so I was playing football. I was probably fifth grade or so. I remember that we, for some reason, were playing football on a Sunday. I had a game scheduled. I don't remember why this happened, but you know who it was that actually held the line. Was it Mormons? It was the Mormons, yeah, it was. And the Christians you know me being one of them. The Christians were there at the football game. Interesting, super interesting, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's part of it. Like you're gonna have to adopt this. Think of like the way ghetto communities have survived in a negative culture. A culture that's negative against them is like you got to be okay being weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's just being principled. That's just. That's just what it is being principled. Of course the people are going to hate you, of course the culture is going to hate you when you're saying, no, I reject your fundamental principles. I'm following this principle instead. If you can recognize that and recognize that it just that just comes with the territory of taking a principled stand. It should steal you S T E? E? L. It should steal you to strengthen you, to give you that kind of courage.
Speaker 1:This is really what it boils down to in this educational conversation is that if we can recognize that the main goal is that I want my child, I want my children to be Christians and that's what I'm training them for, then when they, you know, you face the backlash, you can just say it straight-faced without blushing oh no, I actually am trying to have my children become disciples of Jesus Christ. I'm walking alongside them. Yes, that's on purpose and no, I don't think that's weird, I think that's actually right. You have to be able to say that. And there are going to come times when that's weird, with family members that are like wait, you do like Christian education. What about two plus two equals four? Right, we've had that conversation when you can say, oh, yeah, no. I think that all and I really do mean all I think that all of the treasures of knowledge and of wisdom are hidden in Christ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's such a good conversation, kevin. One of the things that we often hear as sort of an objection, I think, when we're trying to aim at making our children Christian and we're setting up our life around that, there's all these practical implications. Number one you'll be charged with legalism. Always Wanting to obey Christ's commands will be legalism which I love, by the way, because so many people were quoting, I think, from John 14 at recital night recitation and it was like whoever loves me obeys my commands, and I was like this is actually incredibly simple. It's not legalism to want to obey, yeah, first, john is all about that, but people will always charge with education. So you think that your education is a formula and it automatically makes people Christians.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I get it, I get the pushback and in an ultimate sense, you can't just make somebody a Christian Right. The Holy Spirit is like the wind blows where it will. You have to have the new birth. Gotcha Right. Like somebody will not be regenerate because I said believe in the Lord, jesus Christ. That's not how it works. Paul talks about this in 1 Corinthians 3, where he says I planted, apollos, watered, god gave the growth. I am not responsible for that, I can't do that. Okay. So, acknowledging all of those objections, gotcha Still, god does work through means and covenant obligation that he commands.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, you have to see both of those together. Yes, we have a duty, so just, period, you need to be doing this. You have a duty to raise your children up in the paideia and euthysia of the Lord, right? Okay, so you have a duty there, but then also, I believe that the gospel is potent. I also believe in a God. I'm not a hyper-Calvinist. I also believe in a God who works through means.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think just very simply of you. Know, like Romans, chapter 10, paul says you know how will they be saved? Because God sends a preacher and by you know through faith. How will they hear and all those things? But God's appointed the means and the covenant structure. So it's like, as you're going to obey, that you're trusting in the Lord and you're saying Lord, please bless what we're doing. You have to give the growth, regenerate hearts, all that.
Speaker 1:Acknowledging all that, yeah.
Speaker 1:But we're also told, even in Proverbs right, train a child up in the way he should go, he will not soon depart from it. Well, what does that mean? If we are going to fall in the ditch on the other side and say, but you can't do anything about that, god changed the heart, okay. Well, yeah, acknowledging that, yes, but we're also told at another place in God's divinely inspired word, that if you train a child up in the way that he should go, he will not soon depart from it. Okay, another thing that's really interesting.
Speaker 1:Just as you know, I've thought about this pastorally, of course. We are told one of the primary qualifications for being a pastor is that your household is in order, specifically, drilling down all the way to the point that your children are faithful, some would say believing right, even if you take the broader scope, not the narrower scope, and you were to say that your children at least are, you know, walking in obedience, even if you're not saying they're regenerate or something like that, even if you were to say that it's obviously not a shot in the dark, or else, how could that be a requirement for a pastor to say that he manages his own household well and that his children are believing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Pastor Brian has said this and I think it's really helpful. The way that the modern Christian church in America reads Proverbs is train up a child in the way he should go and flip a coin. Who knows what will happen? And that's not what God says.
Speaker 1:No, it's not and, honestly, if that's how it worked, it would make that qualification for being a pastor absurd and unfair. Right, radically unfair. But looking at all of this, one, it's your duty. Two, god works through means. Three, the gospel is incredibly potent. The good news of Jesus Christ is incredibly powerful, incredibly potent. The good news of Jesus Christ is incredibly powerful when you recognize that you should be able to see that a child growing up in a pastor's home, for example, if he looks at that pastor through all of his teaching, says you're an absolute hypocrite and walks away from the faith, you would have concerns, right? So obviously you're looking at something that the father is doing in that somehow related to the child being faithful, right, walking in obedience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is where, again going back to like Abigail Schreier, like even a secular person can recognize the natural covenant realities of the household. So it's really interesting too that, like when you look at throughout history, it's like if a king would turn to Christianity, all his subjects would, yeah, because they were like well, he's our king, he's our head, and so that's where we go, well, same with families. And then you see the way that the covenant structure works. And you're absolutely right that I would say, particularly in the South, like when I was, you know, going to seminary in the south, that we would always have things like well, pastor's kids are notoriously wild, yeah, and but then you have to ask that question well, why is that the expectation? Yeah, you know, and you would think, well, actually it's a disqualification biblically. So there's got to be a different reality that we should be aiming at covenantally and not not thinking of it like a formula. Covenants aren't formulas, but they are real promises with real power.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you about this, as you're thinking about a father who is leading in a home, has children, what is he doing differently? Let's say it's a father fully bought in, christian, strong man. What is he doing differently? What is the father and the mother as a team? What are they doing differently that is, helping secure children growing up and taking on these covenantal obligations themselves, adopting it themselves and saying no, I am a Christian, I'm going to follow in the way of my father and my mother and I am going to raise my children up in the paideia and new theses of the Lord. What are they doing differently, maybe, than just kind of the watered down culture that we have today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean there's a lot you could say, but I think, fundamentally, if you look at it, one of the things I'll always tell especially young families, young mothers and fathers, people starting their families your children will love what you love, and so one of the things that you're guarding against, as you said, is hypocrisy, meaning if you tell your kids like you need to go to Sunday school, you need to go to church, you need to do the catechism, but then every time you lead in it, you grumble and you actually hate it.
Speaker 2:You can't expect them to love what you don't love. And so what I found is, you know, one of the key things I'll say to families is, especially to fathers and mothers make sure, Look, your kids know you're a sinner. What they really need to see is repentance, and so when you sin, repent and repent. To them, that will cut hypocrisy off at the pass. So I think, being cognizant too of like if you're telling your kids like the Lord's day is for worship and fellowship with God's people, but what you really love is to cut out of church early and go watch the game yeah, they see it. They see that. They know that. They know what dad loves yeah, there's no hiding there. And so I think it starts with ourselves. As Modeling, yeah, and modeling and imitation Do we really love these things? Do we love family worship? Yeah, Do we rejoice at singing with God's people and Psalm sing? And Sunday morning, you know, same deal you would say to your.
Speaker 2:If you see kids who are just mouthing the words during Sunday worship, I wanna look at mom and dad. What do they do? Why? And, generally speaking, if mom and dad are robustly singing their hearts out, guess what? The kids see that and they're like that's a glory. I want to chase that glory. So I think a lot of these are just really simple leading in family worship and catechism joyfully, gladly, loving it being part of the life of the body. I think that's one of the key things that you know. Quote unquote works about our culture here. I have never been a part of a church where, like Tuesday, Psalm Sing is a good example. People want to be there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The parents want to be there. It's not just an obligation that you're forced to go to and you're getting dragged to. That's right.
Speaker 2:So making sure that your own heart is, you know, not being conformed to the world but transformed by the light of scripture. Making sure that you're leading in your devotions and Bible reading, you know personally, but also with the family, and making sure that the truth is transforming you. And then I always equate it to, especially in leadership. You remember Moses met with the Lord, his face shown with the glory of God, and then he came down and all the people, to the point that he had to put a veil on all the people saw that. Yeah, so if you are meeting with the Lord in prayer regularly, if you are being transformed by the word of God, if you are partaking of communion and you know receiving Christ, it's like your people ought to see that intrinsically in your face. You know the face in Scripture is your countenance right? This is a big deal that your people see the glory coming off of you because you've been with the Lord, you know the Lord, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, I just think as you walk those principles out, those are your foundation pieces for household life. Then you get into things like discipline. We're told in Proverbs that the parent who doesn't discipline his child with the rod hates his child. Abby Schreier has this interesting chapter that's called Spare the Rod, drug the Child. Wow, and I was like wow, even a secular Jew could pick up on maybe we ought to go back to physical discipline.
Speaker 2:You're like, hmm, maybe God's word was correct. So I think those are a lot of the cornerstones, and then you're going to have to figure out we're talking about here, all these practicals of what is our schedule like? You know, if we value things like hospitality, which elders in particular are commanded to be hospitable, do we have time in?
Speaker 1:our schedule for that. Yeah, it's that sober assessment.
Speaker 2:Looking at it again, it's sort of I would equate it. This is, it's just a feature of humanity, but we're really good at like reading a book on finances and then you're like yeah. I don't know what's, we don't have any money, but I'm following all the principles and then an outsider will look and be like no let's look at your budget.
Speaker 2:You know, the the old like Maury Povich. Like your budget says that that was a lot. That was Povich. Like your budget says that that was a lot. I really value time with my family. And then you look at your your schedule and you go do you? You're not able to have dinner together, like not even like twice a week. Yeah, well, that's a function of what you value. You're going to prioritize, yeah, and then going back and like reworking schedules.
Speaker 1:So, so this could be. Let's say, I'm not doing all of these things, right? This is kind of discouraging, right as I'm taking. I'm hearing this for the first time, or at least hearing this in a sober way for the first time, and I'm just thinking, wow, I really I haven't been doing these things Is there, you know, have I lost all hope at this point? Or are these things like PhD level kind of works or point. Or are these things like PhD level kind of works, or yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I think it's the really great thing about it, and God is so merciful in this, that when people will humbly repent and turn to the Lord, you think about Solomon and what's said about the temple, no matter how far you've fallen, no matter how many idols you've chased. If my people would turn and repent and seek my face, I would restore my covenant blessing to them.
Speaker 2:I would hear their prayers. And so I think, even if it's late in the game for you we've seen this a number of times Start today. Start reworking your schedule, start having dinners together, start cutting back on things. If your wife is working a full-time job, try to get her in the home. Think through the education question, obviously, but just starting with family worship and prayer and God's Word. We try to give simple tools to our church, like the Family Worship Bible Guide from Reformation Heritage, just simple things where you can read through the scripture for that day. Do a quick lesson with your kids. Ask them some questions, pray with them. Let them see that you love them with your kids. Ask them some questions, pray with them.
Speaker 1:Let them see that you love them. It's those habits, it's the small habits. It doesn't need to be crazy complex.
Speaker 2:No, and in fact simple. I mean I remember Scott Brown saying like people are always asked like oh, family worship is so hard, what do I do? And he's like it's not hard. Read a passage pray with your people, sing the doxology. Start there Really easy, like be consistent. If little four-year-olds can learn how to sing the doxology, you can. So I think, just starting simple with those things and with true repentance, and you'll see it's amazing how quickly you'll see families turn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean. God is faithful, god is merciful to us. He blesses to the thousandth generation, he only curses to the fourth. That is God in his mercy, seeing a family, through the work of his Holy Spirit, totally turn things around for their generations, that they would all follow the Lord. That's what we're aiming at. We're aiming at generations. I'm not just looking at this short-sightedly, I'm not just trying to say, hey, go get the football scholarship. I'm saying, before all else, I want my children to be Christians, I want my grandchildren to be Christians, I want my great-grandchildren to be Christians, because I know that that is going to be the best thing for them at the end of the day, and that's exactly what God wants.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're absolutely right. And the other piece I would throw in here is like if you're a father especially fathers and mothers, but especially fathers making sure that you're reading the kind of things that would like, god works through your conscience and your conviction and through your mind. So for a lot of guys I've talked to so many people in the 1689 and in our camp 1689 Reformed it's books like Votibachum, like Family Driven Faith, like if you can pick up one of those books and read it and have your mind changed and your heart changed, you start to see the value of the covenant household and then you go oh, wait a minute, we need to make some changes.
Speaker 1:Well, and those things that you before devalued, maybe accidentally. You know it's like wait, hey, that's not my role in the home, right, I need to be out making the money, and so that's very valuable time. You know, reading to the kids that's not valuable, it's not making the money. Well, once you start to reshape how you are spending your time and the value of your own children themselves, but then also your role in your children's life, you can look at that time and say that's time well spent. I read to my kids this morning, I read to my kids yesterday and it was one. It was a fun book, so that's fun for me, but for them, their father being present reading to them, making sure that they're listening attentively, and us doing this as a family, that was time well spent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean you can even look at data on this. But like you'll have all these family council type nonprofit organizations and they all pretty much say the same thing. I think in like 85% of the cases, whatever the father does, that's what the family like. So if a father's a believing Christian, faithfully goes to church, et cetera, his kids will be. So just think of that covenantally and say, okay, so I need to do those things joyfully. You know, there will be some people I think we've known a lot of them in the homeschooling communities, especially across the years, where it's like super active in like homeschool, sporting and homeschool this and homeschool that. I'm like I always ask them, I'm like cool, where do you go to church? Well, we kind of float around and we do some different stuff and you're kind of like your kids don't need that. Yeah, priorities, which one? They need to see you like be a member, be participating in the life of the body. If you don't have a church near you, find one, yeah, rooted and stable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're not just telling them that's important, you're actually showing them that that's important. And that goes for the father too, who can submit to other men, to other pastors, qualified men, and say and you should too, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:That's actually for our good, exactly, I think. Next, I'd like to maybe just discuss more concretely, more specifically, some goals that help us point towards that ultimate goal of having our kids become Christians. I've been thinking about this quite a bit. So, school just ended, I'm already thinking towards next year. Right, it's constantly on my mind, but I'm reworking, reframing. What is the ideal student graduate from our school? What is the ideal student graduate from our school? What do they look like, what do they love? And so I think it's helpful maybe if we just frame it with these three simple goals or sub goals, as we're thinking about discipling our children to become Christians.
Speaker 1:We want our children to become virtuous, wise and eloquent. Virtuous, wise and eloquent. In other words, when we're graduating a student from St Brendan's, we want them and we're going to measure them against this scale of are they virtuous, are they wise and are they eloquent? In other words, for being virtuous, we're looking at habits. We're looking at excellence and skill. We're looking at moral behavior, obviously with like right and wrong, for example. We're looking at maturity and manners. How does the young boy open the door for the young lady to let her walk in first? That all goes back to virtue, the virtue of the young man or woman that we are trying to graduate. But then we also address wisdom.
Speaker 1:We don't want them just to be knowledgeable, we don't want them just to be good at analysis. We want them to reason well and we want them to be trained in the scriptures. They are going to be like I said before. They are going to be so much better equipped than we were because they're going to be so thoroughly trained in the scriptures. They are going to be so much better equipped than we were because they were going to be so thoroughly trained in the scriptures. They're learning Greek, they're learning Latin. They're going to go back to the original language by the time that they graduate. They will be so firmly rooted in the Bible that they will be able to be a help to other people, which comes back to our third point not just virtuous, not just wise, but eloquent.
Speaker 1:The reason that eloquence is important is because you being able to speak persuasively assuming that you are virtuous and wise right, because that can be a very bad thing too. Hitler was persuasive, for example. Someone who is virtuous and wise because they're Christians, and is now also eloquent, can help persuade other people Like Apollos right, apollos was a very gifted speaker and skilled in the word of God. That's actually a magnificent good for all of the people around him, because not only can he persuade them well, but he can persuade them to the right things.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting too. I had a hard man podcast. I had Alex Petkus, who is, I think he went to it's like Harvard or Yale, has a degree in philosophy from there, but now he teaches in a Christian sense, but teaches Greco-Roman rhetorical technique. Yeah, and what's interesting about this is he said yeah, studying rhetoric, and then hearing Paul say I'm not one who's like, you know Apollos is great and I'm not.
Speaker 2:He goes when you read Paul. He said Paul is a master of rhetoric, which actually makes sense given his education and kind of all these worlds, of like the Roman, obviously Greek thought and then Jewish thought. So then of like the Roman, obviously Greek thought and then Jewish thought. So then you think about it, it's like God, in his providence, picked Paul for a reason. This guy was persuasive the book of Romans. If you don't think Paul knows how to reason. I mean, the greatest thinkers of all time in Western civilization have said like Peter did Paul's hard.
Speaker 1:He's hard to read.
Speaker 2:And it's not because it's sloppy or bad, yeah, it's because it's so deep, mm-hmm, and it's so well thought out. I also think the wisdom one is interesting, because wisdom I've always kind of defined as, like, the skill of applying principles to life. Mm-hmm, the skill of applying principles to life. So when you think about it, like, think about our kids they're growing up seeing their parents work through okay, we got to get mom home, we got to start a school. We're thinking through culture and psalm singing and liturgy and worship. A certain way, for our kids it won't be strange. When they're young adults, they spent a lifetime thinking through those things alongside us and hearing it. Young adults, they spend a lifetime thinking through those things alongside us and hearing it. So it's also as you're applying wisdom, your kids are seeing you do that, so that you know, let's say, you know my oldest, he gets married, he's not gonna go. Oh man, what is family worship?
Speaker 1:Like I have to reorder my whole life now.
Speaker 2:He's just gonna assume like he's already seen it for 20 years before that that's a first principle Like we do that or like going to church isn't going to be like a life altering thing, because it's like we've already built our life on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. Yeah, you bring up a really important point with wisdom. Wisdom, when we're using it, is not a pure theory. That is amoral. That's not wisdom. Wisdom is more like the Shemitic understanding. Gerhardus Voss talks about this. It's more like the Shemitic understanding of wisdom, which is more rooted. It's knowledge that makes contact with the ground in a way, so it does bleed into application. Again, going back to the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Well, that kind of knowledge, if you fear the Lord, is going to play out all the way out to your fingertips, right, it's going to affect your practical application as well.
Speaker 1:So, for our students, yes, we do want them to become Christians. That's the ultimate goal. That is what we're training them in, that's what we're training our children in, that's what we're demonstrating, modeling for them. But in order to get there, we're trying to give these three shorter targets to shoot for, and that is that they become virtuous, that they become wise and that they become eloquent.
Speaker 1:We can't cast this as that false dilemma right when you would have. You have to make a choice. Do you want stupid Christians or do you want really educated apostates? Well, we know the choice we would make every time. Right, you would want Christians at the end of the day, even if they were stupid. But it's not a false dilemma. We don't have to choose either. Or right, you can push through that and recognize. No, I do want my children to become Christians and I'm working everything toward that goal, again, like we talked about with Paideia. But we also want them to be educated. We want them to be virtuous, wise and eloquent, that they would be a help to their fellow peers as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really helpful, Kevin, as we get into some of the, I guess, practical. We've been talking a lot about those. Yeah, we have Any other things that you would add to that discussion of practically how to walk this out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think maybe a big one is just again, with everything that we've been saying, we're not shooting for a low vision, we're shooting for a robust, a very robust Christian education. You want them surrounded by other robust Christians, so you need to be in a covenant community as well, embracing the means of grace, like you were talking about before reading your Bible, actually showing up for church on Sundays, making that a priority, father leading family worship at home, restoring that liturgy of the home. The encouragement with all of this, though, is, if you are taking this sober assessment and you're saying, wait, I lack in this area or I haven't been prioritizing my child's Christian education or that final goal of no, I unapologetically want them to become a Christian. That's what I'm aiming at. If that's you today and you are hearing that repentance is right there, where you can say, okay, I haven't been doing that.
Speaker 1:Lord, help me, forgive me, I am going to do this moving forward, please, help me, please, please give me this wisdom, help me apply this. Please work in my child's heart that they would even forgive me for this and that they would thoroughly child's heart. That they would even forgive me for this and that they would thoroughly embrace this, that they would want to become Christians themselves. But that's not going to happen without repentance, it's not going to happen without you then turning the ship around and modeling it as well in covenant community. But that would be my encouragement for all of you is to continue in this way, to continue to equip your children, both for their good and for God's glory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's really helpful. Kevin, I was thinking as you were talking about that. Deuteronomy 30, 14,. It says but the word is very near you, it is in your mouth and in your heart so that you can do it and, I think, just encouraging people with that, as you said. Of course, paul will quote that in Romans 10, I believe. But same deal. God has been merciful, here it is, and by faith, walk it out. Amen, kevin, been a great conversation. Do want to encourage people to check out the St Brennan's podcast Patreon page. I know there's been a lot of exciting content there. You get exclusive content, early access content. What are some of the things that you guys have been putting up lately?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we've been continuing the captain's log that we had previously recorded, pastor Sauvé and me. We had put these out before. Those are getting posted every two weeks, I believe, on there I am also officially in summertime mode, which means I'm going to be doing some more writing, putting out some more resources for you. Just recently, I put up the entrance exams that I used for our students coming into the school. I will also put up our application there too. So for anyone who's thinking about starting this out with a private school trying to follow our model, you'll have that available. You can ask any questions as you're reading through it, but we will continue to have more resources coming out.
Speaker 1:I've been getting this request a lot recently, so I'll probably post it within the next week or so for me to return with that, the document of basically the what do I do before kind of the preschool years Incredibly helpful it really is. I've talked through this with with multiple families in our own church, Um, but, but little things that you can be doing like uh, you were just talking about discipline with your kids. Well, what do I do for a one-year-old? Okay, let's talk about that Just concretely. What can I? They're only, you know, one or two years old, but I'm already thinking towards St Brendan's, or I'm already thinking towards what are we going to be doing for school in the future. Is there anything I can be doing now? Okay, well, I addressed that right, so that's going to be back up on there, and then if there's anything else that you guys come across that you guys maybe want some more resources for, or a question answered, just let me know. You can reach out on the Patreon or on any of the socials and I'd be glad to help.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, we definitely encourage people to check that out. We'll include links in the show notes for the St Brendan's Podcast Patreon channel a good community, lots of Q&A going on there. And finally, we do want to encourage people. It's not too late. You can join us at the New Christian Press Conference, kevin, you'll be there.
Speaker 1:Will it be available by the time that this posts? Probably not.
Speaker 2:When is uh, but, but hey, when do you plan on posting it?
Speaker 1:Uh, that will be in four weeks, so so maybe you guys, you guys, hey, we'll see you in 2025, 2025.
Speaker 2:You can pre-order, just change the message. For next year, kevin will be there also Awesome. Well, it's been a great show, kevin. Thank you so much. Appreciate all our listeners Thanks for having me and we will catch you guys all on the next episode. We all belong to Jerusalem above and we sail for Eden's shores and we sail for Eden's shores and we sail for Eden's shores and we sail for Eden's shores.