Nurse Maureen‘s Health Show
Welcome to Nurse Maureen's Health Show Podcast where we dive deep into all things health, sex, menopause, relationships, parenting, communication and more! Hosted by a passionate nurse with years of frontline experience, we bring you expert interviews, real-life stories, and the latest insights on staying healthy aging. Nothing is off limits as we delve into overall health, sexual health, mental health, and sexual health. Whether we’re breaking down medical myths, discussing cutting-edge treatments, or chatting with top health professionals, this show is your go-to for practical advice and inspiring conversations.
Nurse Maureen‘s Health Show
The Realities of On-Line Dating; Love at First Swipe with Dr. Treena Orchard
Join me, Maureen McGrath, as we unravel the intricate world of online dating with our insightful guest, Dr. Treena Orchard, author of "Sticky, Sexy, Sad: Swipe Culture and the Darker Side of Dating Apps." Together, we confront the superficial allure and emotional traps of digital romance. Explore how the gamification of dating apps can ensnare users in a cycle of desire and disappointment, leaving many feeling inadequate or even heartbroken. Through cautionary tales like Amelia’s, we illuminate the red flags that often go unnoticed until it’s too late.
In our exploration of dating apps, we tackle the dual nature of these platforms, which promise countless connections but often deliver confusion and objectification. Learn about the differences between popular apps like Bumble and Tinder and how their abundance of choices might be more of a hindrance than a help in finding meaningful relationships. Trina and I also touch on the broader landscape of dating, from the rise of matchmaking services to the need for vigilance against online dangers like ghosting and predatory behavior.
Our discussion doesn't shy away from the gender dynamics that pervade online dating, where women often face unique challenges and safety concerns. We also celebrate the growing trend towards wellness and sobriety among daters, offering a refreshing perspective on contemporary romance. With compelling stories and practical advice, this episode provides a comprehensive guide for anyone navigating the perils and promises of the online dating world. Listen in for a blend of cautionary tales and hopeful insights, sure to resonate with anyone who has ever swiped right.
So I had been single for a few years and I had a friend at work who'd prompted me to start online dating. It's not how I was used to dating and I was very apprehensive at first and I think it took me about six months before I finally signed up to a dating app posted a picture. Finally signed up to a dating app, posted a picture and some of my I wouldn't say worst fears but my apprehensions were realized and there was just a heavy emphasis on what you looked like, your appearance and how sexy you were, and it made me a little nervous because the people that the men that were responding to my comments or reaching out and saying hello were anonymous, so I didn't know if they were creeps.
Speaker 2:Good evening and welcome to another episode of Nurse Maureen's Health Show podcast. I'm Maureen McGrath, a registered nurse, nurse, continence advisor, sexual health educator and the host of this podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in. I appreciate all of your downloads, your follows and if you feel that any episode would help somebody that you know or care about, feel free to share it with them. I'm very excited about my guest this evening, but first I wanted to share my patient's story with you.
Speaker 2:My patient met a man online. There was a red flag. She chose to ignore it. He said that he was divorced but he was still living with his ex-wife in the family home Carry on.
Speaker 2:My patient was very attracted to this man and they had lots of fun, lots of laughs, as she said, and lots of sex. The problem was they never actually went out anywhere unless they went to dinner at one of her friend's houses or they went downtown to his office where they enjoyed food and wine and again, had lots of great sex. Well, on one evening they were eating and dancing and drinking wine and she gave him a ride home. Only he drove, but by the time they got to his house she realized I can't drive any further. I've had far too much to drink, and so he offered for her to stay at his house. But he said you have to leave at six o'clock in the morning and you have to be very quiet. They went into the house and stayed in a second bedroom and when I said to her, did the second bedroom where you stayed, did that look like a man's bedroom? And she said no, it looked more like a storage room. They stayed that night. They had intimate relations, they had a wonderful time. At 6 am he woke her up and ushered her out the door very quickly.
Speaker 2:Well, that evening they'd had plans to go to dinner at one of her friends' places and he called and said he couldn't make it and in fact he couldn't see her anymore. She was gutted, she was absolutely devastated. But she did say this when she walked into the family home, it didn't look like a home where two people were divorced. In fact it looked like a happy family's home.
Speaker 2:People online aren't always looking for what you're looking for. She said in this house there were photographs of the wedding and the honeymoon and family vacations, pictures of the children as well, which made her eerily uncomfortable. We oftentimes don't want to believe what we see right in front of our eyes. Online dating can be a dangerous place. It can be scary and it can be heartbreaking as well, and this is why I'm delighted to have my next guest on. Trina Orchard is an associate professor in the School of Health Studies and an affiliate in women's studies and feminist research at Western University in London, ontario, canada. She is also an anthropologist and the author of Sticky, sexy, sad Swipe Culture and the Darker Side of Dating Apps. Good evening, trina. How are you?
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm doing really well, thanks.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's great. Listen, I loved your book and I'm excited to talk about this because this is such a big issue for people trying to navigate dating or finding love in this digital age, and you've written a fascinating book. I just want to start quickly with the title Sticky Sexy, sad that part of it. Why that title?
Speaker 3:Well, it just came to me. I'm a huge fan of alliteration and I had been mulling over a number of different titles for the book, and then I was literally on the bus one day, traveling to the university, and this, it just came to me.
Speaker 2:It just came to me, yeah, and so it's, it's a great title and, um, uh, very catchy. And also this swipe culture in which we live. Uh, you know, people think, oh, go online. I remember, you know, 10, 15 years ago in my clinical practice I'd ask people how they met and they would say, don't tell anybody. But we met online. And now today it's, you know, you don't even ask, have to ask somebody how they've met. They've all met online, or so it seems. But being online isn't all it's cracked up to be, and your, your book certainly underscores that. But I first want to recommend your book very much, so I thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the fact that you, you know, take a foray into your own life. You share some of your past experiences and traumas as well. It's extremely relatable for people. What made you decide to do that and how is that related to the swipe culture, which you always also dipped your toe in?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I think when I began swiping and writing about it, a different kind of voice, a voice and creative kind of spirit began to emerge and I really wanted to trust and honor that.
Speaker 3:So I didn't want it to be an academic study, that would be too easy, I've done that before. I really wanted to honor and take a chance on my own life as a woman, as someone who's trying to figure this stuff out, as someone who's sober, etc. And so that is why it is first and foremost a memoir, with the cultural critique kind of wound into the pages, and I think that that would make it more relatable to more readers than just a purely academic book, to more readers than just a purely academic book. And that's what a lot of people have said, that they really appreciate the way I blend my own very honest kind of heart-clenching experiences along the way with some of the more analytical insights that help people make sense of a lot of the stuff that we have all been experiencing in one way or another. Even if we don't use dating apps, swipe culture is with us in so many different ways that we navigate everyday life.
Speaker 2:It certainly is. And you know loneliness is a big issue today, especially post-pandemic, and you know that can lead to hypertension and early death. You know, and people want to find that you know, lid to their pot, that their better half, if you will. But it's not easy in the swipe culture. But I just want to get back a little bit to your memoir and your sharing your life stories. You went through some traumas, you also had a bout with addiction, and tell the listeners, if you wouldn't mind, just a little bit about that aspect of your life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, yeah, I grew up in a household where my mom was an active alcoholic for 30 years and that shaped my life dramatically, as did them getting divorced and, you know, family dysfunction.
Speaker 3:It's not unique to me, but as a young woman trying to find myself in the 90s, it was a different time. We didn't go to counseling that often, or if we did, we kept it very quiet. And writing this book and delving into those experiences is part of my healing journey, and it's also part of a way to push back against the shame that continues to be thrust on us, perhaps especially women, when we're talking about trauma or talking about our own lives even you know memoirs for a long time we're like, oh, that's navel gazing, you know, and it's like, no, it's actually, it's personal and it's political and it's feminist and it's a way of sort of joining hands across the world in some regards, because a lot of what I share is unique to me, but a lot of us have also gone through it and we need to share our stories more for some change to happen and for that stigma to sort of fall by the wayside.
Speaker 2:I completely agree with you and you know it's a shared experience for many people. I am sure who will be reading your book or who have read your book, and that just actually does eliminate the shame, the embarrassment. I cannot tell you how many patients in my clinical practice will say to me have you ever seen anybody who's experienced this before or something like this before? And it's like the eight patients who were in before you. You know some of these experiences, especially around mental health, addiction, substance use and abuse disorders. You know they're very common, yet people feel that they are alone, that they're the only ones suffering with this and, as you say, you know there were so much stigma associated with seeking help when actually therapy is a gift you give to yourself.
Speaker 2:You know I have a few friends who are single and looking for love in all the I don't know right or wrong places and is online one of the wrong places that you know. They're oftentimes sending me messages of what the person online you know said to them, or you know that they ghosted them or didn't turn up or sent them. You know a dick pic if you will. Or you know people in esteemed positions that who you know send, you know photographs that you know are unbecoming, shall I say, but you know they may have met somebody for coffee and then an hour later we'll get a picture of them.
Speaker 2:You know of a guy this is women talking about men you know of a guy who has, you know, is bare chested, has unzipped his pants and you know, you know, has basically you've shared a cup of coffee. He may not have even bought it for you and he's sending you a very provocative picture, thinking this is, this is OK, thinking that his 18, I think for some women, thinking, you know, why did I go for him? Why did I go out with him? You know what's, you know what am I doing here? Or they may often want to give up. So tell me a little bit about, basically, the darker side of dating apps.
Speaker 3:You know you shared a lot of things that are really familiar to me, the sort of dispatches from the field when we share the horrendous responses, the gross photos, the ghosting and all of that with our friends as a way to make sense of it, and I think sometimes we have to laugh because it's so kind of revolting and strange and some of us are a little bit nervous to send those things or share some of those experiences because of just what you said. We often internalize the way that other people behave towards us as though it's strictly a responsibility that we hold alone, and that's not true. But as women in particular, we are often sort of socialized to think about the implications of things like from other people on us. And I think that there's many different aspects of the darker side of dating apps, and one of them, I think, has to do with the way that these things are marketed. They're marketed as easy fun games get out there, stay swiping, keep swiping, and so they have a lot of different techniques to keep us addicted and always active and, you know, still swiping and perhaps never making a decision on one person you know they gamify it, and so when we encounter challenging situations, which we always do. It sort of makes us feel like it must be our fault because this is an easy, effective game. But that's the marketing narrative. That's not really what it is in real life. In real life, it demands a tremendous amount of time, emotional labor.
Speaker 3:You are often confronted with a lot of abusive, troubling behavior, and when people ghost, it's when they vanish. You have no recourse to ask them why are you behaving this way? And some of the apps have very few safety features, and so that can really make us feel very vulnerable to the behavior of other people and like what is our recourse? So those are some of the sort of top level darker side of dating apps, and it also fuels a lot of violence, and people can masquerade as someone else that they are not.
Speaker 3:That's very easy online. There's a lot of coercion and so yeah, so those are some of the really challenging aspects of it, and I think more people are beginning to speak out about how abysmal and how frightening and boring the experiences can be swiping. However, I will say that they're not just that, because if they were, I wouldn't have stuck it out for so long, because it's interspersed with some really lovely experiences. I've met a lot of really, really nice people, some of whom I had long-term relationships with. So when our behavior is kind of punctuated, with some highlights or sort of shining moments, some fun things, some love even, that can also kind of lend itself to us staying in the game longer.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You know, I have patients who present to my clinical practice and they talk about relationships and online dating as well, and I had an opportunity to speak to one of my patients, Amelia not her real name and she wanted to share this about her online dating experience.
Speaker 1:So the interesting thing about dating online is when you actually do get to meet somebody in person, you are, I feel I was immediately looking for red flags, because you are basically meeting a stranger, you have no previous knowledge and you're just looking to find out. Is he a creep? Is he going to murder me? So I went on a date with a man. He was lovely, we had a lot in common, we were both divorced, had children. He was very articulate, spat a little bit too much when he spoke and other than that, you know, very sweet. However, I didn't see a second date on the horizon At this point. We were still communicating through the app because I felt like it was a safe place. There was still. I could protect myself. I could protect, you know, if I gave out too much information. I was always afraid that, you know, someone might show up at my door, someone might feel offended and want to get you know revenge, and so I let him down very kindly and I said you know, I just I don't see this going anywhere. But he was quite persistent and he would message me and then, you know, maybe three times a day and I finally I didn't know what to do and I didn't want to say something that might make him angry, just in case. Just in case, he decided to find me at work, because now he had a face, he had my name. So I faked a death in the family and he was very sympathetic and I thought okay, we're done.
Speaker 1:A week goes by, it's Halloween. I get a message from him again. He sent a picture. He's got a glass of wine, he's by the fire. I'm thinking a lot about you, I want to be there for you. And I said, look, I'm still not over it. It's only been a week. A couple of days later he messages me again and I'm thinking I don't know, he's very persistent and I don't know. I can't come up with anything worse than losing a family member to let him know I'm not interested, without offending him, in case he does show up. And there's always, you know, just that fear in the back of your mind. And I have kids, so I have to protect them. I have a family. I don't want all this to get ugly. So I eventually I just deleted the app, I deleted everything and tried to erase my online presence as much as I could and then waited about six months and then I finally thought, ok, this guy is not a creep, he's not going to show up, I can move on.
Speaker 2:So, trina, you know you talk about the the darker side of apps, and you heard Amelia's story. Are some apps better than others? And you know, it's also interesting to me to learn that you know, or to really be mindful of the fact that there are no safety measures put in place for these apps that you know. You're confirming that there are a lot of. There's a lot of unusual, strange, confusing behavior on online. But, you know, would you recommend one app over another? Are they all the same?
Speaker 3:online. But, you know, would you recommend one app over another? Are they all the same? I think that you know there are some safety measures. I think it's important to not paint them all with like as if it's all like just sort of open, open game. I think that there are some safety measures. You know, if you ghost on certain apps, you can get kicked off. If you do send dick pics on certain apps, you can get you know you can get kicked off. If you do send dick pics on certain apps, you can get you know you can get taken off of the application. So there are a couple that do have some safety measures.
Speaker 2:You know, does somebody have to? May I ask you does somebody have to report that dick pic? How does the app know that a dick pic has been sent, or a compromising photo?
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is something that I'm not 100% familiar with, because it didn't. These things were not in play when I was swiping, so these are kind of relatively new, new additions.
Speaker 2:I see, yes, I think. If somebody has to report, you know people are less likely to women especially, are less likely to do that because you know they're afraid of repercussions. Are they all pretty similar, or you or I know some have a reputation for just hookups and some have a reputation for particular socioeconomic backgrounds and good looks, whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's an app for that. There's an app for almost every niche and I think, in terms of my own experience, which is what I can speak most strongly to I used Bumble at the beginning and the way that that app was designed back in the day circa 2017, was that on the hetero version, only women could make the first move, and I found that the design really created antagonism between myself and a lot of the men who were using the app. They didn't like waiting to be asked. They also didn't like, I think, the fact that it was feminist, even though they were using the damn thing, and it was also the height of the Me Too movement. So there was kind of a real inflamed sort of anything surrounding feminism was especially fraught, but the design really impacted that, and also Bumble's original sort of casting itself as a feminist app was something that drew me to it as a feminist. However, I found that I was doing so much of the dating labor and there was a lot of very specific antagonism to me as a feminist using this feminist product. I found that they weren't really addressing that in an effective way. So I didn't agree with that app anymore and I use Tinder for the most because it's very easy access, but it is still a bit boring.
Speaker 3:You have three different criteria, you know age, gender, how far you're willing to travel to meet someone and Tinder is good in some senses because it has so many people, so there is a real variety. But you're going to run into a whole range of challenging situations and there's so many people using tinder and other apps who are not even interested in dating, despite what they might say on their profile, you know, so there's a lot that you have to weed through on any of them. A A lot of people are kind of enjoying or preferring Hinge and, depending on what relationship container or situation you're looking for, field is one that is becoming really quite popular with people. Yeah, so those are the ones that I have used.
Speaker 2:You know and I think of Tinder as the hookup dating app. That was always the reputation that it had anyway, so it's interesting to hear you. You can hook up on any app.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:That is true, and there's also.
Speaker 3:I should also say, like there's no shade against hookups. You know, they've been around for a long time. We just called them something else. One night stands right, right. They've been around for a long time, we just called them something else. One night stands right, right. I think that the difference with dating apps is that they really contribute to a different, they can contribute to a different volume of encounters and they can also contribute to, you know, sort of an objectification of people and also dating in general, when we are encouraged by these apps to be constantly swiping, constantly busy, and so that is very unusual. No, we've never really had to or chosen to speak with 10, 20, 30, 40 people a day, like that is not normal. That is very, very different from the past.
Speaker 2:Which is what I wanted to address the volume of encounters. As you put it, it's like a smorgasbord, and you know people have described that to me as well that are patients in my clinical practice in particular, that you know they especially people who might have an issue with commitment you know they're non-committal, but they think there's always something better. There's always someone better, someone who's going to be taller, thinner, richer, prettier, more better looking, you know, and so they. You know they may actually miss opportunities to get to know somebody because there's there's, as you say, you know people can speak to 40 people in a day. There could be thousands of people that you can swipe through to find that perfect match. Is that part addictive?
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and it's very misguided. You know, I think the idea of the one is quite problematic. I know it's been around for a long time. It's part of sort of the fantasy that is associated with romance. I'm not saying that there isn't the one for a lot of people, you know. I don't mean to dismiss, but that's a lot of pressure and that can also contribute to like maybe there's someone, well, maybe there's someone, and so there's.
Speaker 3:We have these commercial messages from the apps and then these long standing kind of narratives about romance is you know the one and you got to keep searching for your one person?
Speaker 3:And so it can be. It can make romance and dating, you know, irrespective of the kind of insanity of the dating apps, incredibly stressful and it can also make us feel like we're never going to get it right and it can also make us feel, for those of us who are looking at different kinds of erotic and intimate experiences and perhaps more short-term relationships, like we're doing something wrong. So I think there's a lot of things going on there. But, you know, fundamentally we all want, in some ways or another, some kind of connection and these apps do not teach us anything about that. And, you know, think about our really anemic social dialogues about dating and romance. Lack of, you know, sex education in schools. It really makes it fraught, and so it's no wonder that a lot of us are having a difficult time and that it seems like dating is everywhere. You know, it's really part of our cultural zeitgeist to use that overused term, but I think a lot of things are kind of coming to coming to a head right now.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and you know. I just want to go back to my patient, Amelia, who wanted to share this.
Speaker 1:So, despite all my apprehensions and worries around using a dating app and being on Tinder, I did have a lot of fun. I had a few girlfriends at work who are also on Tinder. We were all in different age categories and so we got to see the gamut of available men out there. I at one point had been on for a few months and sometimes we played tinder like it was a game we're swiping, swiping, having a giggle, and I'd finally reached the end of my um, there was nobody left. So I decided to change my age range and I thought I would, you know, see what older you know.
Speaker 1:I increased my age by five years, my age range and within a day I had made a connection with a man a little bit older than me, and you know I had mentioned earlier on that I was getting a lot of comments about my legs, and he actually did mention something about how tall I was, but I never got the impression that it was. You know, it wasn't very sexual, it's just very funny. And I thought, okay, well, he might have a sense of humor, well, he might have a sense of humor. And so I met him. He was actually one of the very few people, and this was one of the things that I at first thought okay, this is, this guy's, not a creep, he.
Speaker 1:The first thing he said to me was you know, let's not do this back and forth. Let's just meet in person, see if we have a connection, and if we don't, we can go separate ways. So within a couple of days we were on our first date and the irony is that he was the one with the long legs. He was very tall and at first meeting him he gave me a very chaste peck on the cheek and my first thought was oh, this is how the older generation does it. Aced peck on the cheek and my first thought was oh, this is how the older generation does it. We went for a hike and he was just, he was lovely, we had a lot in common, but there was just a connection and by the end of the date, both of us had decided we're off this app. Thank you Tinder.
Speaker 2:And we dated for some time after, and now we're happily married right now, and it's just seems to be getting worse and worse, or more and more. For some people better. I know that a lot of people meet their person online and that can be a lovely way to meet people, but I'd like to go to break right now, and when I come back I want to talk a little bit more about some of the perils of online dating. My guest is Trina Orchard. She is an anthropologist and an author. She's the author of the book Sticky, sexy, spad, swipe Culture and the Darker Side of Dating Apps. Stay with me, we'll be right back.
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Speaker 2:Welcome back to the podcast. My guest is Trina Orchard. She is an anthropologist and the author of Sticky, sexy, sad, swipe Culture and the Darker Side of Dating Apps. Trina, thanks so much for talking with me tonight about this incredibly important issue. Dating and relationships have changed so much, even in the past five years, 10 years, 15 years. You know years ago it was somebody would go to somebody's house, knock on the door. You know, meet the parents and you know who checked them out. And you know, go on a date where everything was. You know where are you going to be going, when are you going to be home? I mean fast forward. You know just 30, 40 years and we have this. You could possibly meet, you know, 40 people in a day. You can see three different people that you might like to be in a relationship in a day. What are some of the perils of this? I mean, you know, if somebody were just reading this it would be like a sci-fi novel almost.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, dating has changed a lot, that is for sure. I think that it lends itself to the idea that dating and relationships are incredibly difficult and so we need to rely on these dating apps to help us through it. And that's part of the narrative that we get from dating apps, and I think, in general, it can just lend itself also to a sense of insecurity about how do we make decisions. How do we make the right kind of decisions? I hear this a lot of my students, especially those in fourth year. How am I going to decide and know what I want to do? You know for the rest of my life.
Speaker 3:Well chances are, we're going to be making a number of decisions over the next number of years, and the same might be true with relationships. I mean I think that you know the idea of meeting your high school sweetheart and spending the rest of your life. I mean that is becoming less and less what people want, and also, looking at divorce rates and other things, those kinds of relationship containers are demonstrating themselves to be less successful as our society changes. So it makes sense that relationships are different now than they were a few decades ago, because in many ways our culture has changed a lot and I think that a lot of my students and younger people I know you know they have a lot of insecurity and tension around romance, especially if they don't have anyone currently, and a lot of them are feeling a little bit defeated by the apps.
Speaker 3:But I will say, in terms of a positive spin, you know, in response to how ineffective and unsatisfying the apps are, we're seeing a real uptick in in real life dating activities. Are we're seeing a real uptick in in real life dating activities companies. That industry is really, really growing and we're seeing also the return of matchmakers and there's like dating coaches. So there are all these resources and services that have popped up in response to, in some ways, the failure of dating apps and just because, you know, we are a capitalist society and so there's a lot of money to be made in this industry, and so I don't say it's positive or negative, but it's just it's becoming a very diverse ecology.
Speaker 2:And as part of that and I know that there's growth in industry, you know, getting into the dating game, you know, I see. You know, in New York City, for example, you know, they're having pickleball Friday nights for single people to come along. Dating apps are not just for young people, you know. It's every decade of life you can find dating apps. Silver Singles is another one. But I want to know, are people safe online?
Speaker 2:You know, I've heard so many stories of women meeting men who are not who they say they are, and also men meeting women who are not who they say they are, for example. Yet one friend of mine told a story recently about how he'd met a woman and looked at nothing like the profile pictures and and he wasn't attracted to her and she wasn't attracted to him. In fact, you know, he said, and it was because she was, she was very obese. But they became good friends and you know they had a long-term friendship and and he's still in touch with her today. But what are the dangers lurking out there and how can people stay safe?
Speaker 3:There are a lot of dangers with the online world in general, especially with the uptick in different kinds of technology where we have access to one another on multiple platforms, not even just dating apps, but almost every digital platform has in some ways been romanticized or presented as opportunities for people to slip into our DMs, and so that is sort of the digital creep that a lot of us have experienced and people are writing about. But I mean, there are many dangers, including, as you say, people you know being catfished, which is when you have pictures that really are not you or there's someone else entirely. So there's coercion. You know there's a lot of deception. There are people who are more predatory in nature and they specifically go online to target, whether it's young people, different kinds of marginalized communities, women, etc. So a lot of the dangers online really reflect the dangers in our very inequitable patriarchal society and in terms of safety.
Speaker 3:You know, if you are going to be going on a date, you know share the information that you have with someone close by a trusted friend, someone who's preferably close in the same city where you are not, because a lot of us have friends all over the world but if you share some of your dating info with a friend who lives nearby.
Speaker 3:That is one way to be safe. And also, if you're meeting someone, meet in a really public place where you know it's not just you and that individual. Try to ask as many questions as you can, not in a reporter style, but just sort of see if some of what they're sharing with you, if it corresponds with what they've got in their profile. You might want to ask to have a phone call. A lot of people are like oh, who talks on the phone anymore? But sometimes you can sort of catch people or just confirm information you know through a quick phone call or a quick Zoom before a date. You know there's lots of different ways that we can kind of use technology as a way to keep safe as well as share information so that others know where we are.
Speaker 2:I do want to thank Amelia for sharing her story, because I did invite other people to share their stories, other women to share their stories on this podcast, and you know I was turned down, I have to say so. I know what it feels like, but Amelia had this to say about one particular patient that I asked, who is anonymous, if she would share her stories on the podcast, and she said yes, she would at first, and then she said, oh, you want me to record with my voice, you want me to. I thought you just wanted me to tell you your stories and then you would repeat them, you would tell them for me. I thought you just wanted me to tell you my stories and then you would repeat them and share them on the podcast. And I said, no, I wanted you to talk about you know, I wanted you to talk in person, and are you to record these? And she said, oh, no, absolutely not. And Amelia had this to say about that.
Speaker 1:I think it speaks very much to the story of women dating online that we are always thinking is someone going to hear us? Is this story going to reach a guy that I dated? Are they going to come back and murder me? And you start to think well, I'm being paranoid, but really you know women. You know, growing up I was always told don't walk down the street because you know a man might jump out of the bushes and grab you. Well, these men now aren't in bushes, they're online.
Speaker 2:Trina, your book is fascinating. I absolutely loved it. Sticky, Sexy, Sad Swipe Culture and the Darker Side of Dating Apps. We just have a few minutes left. What is the one thing that shocked you the most about your foray into the dating app world, and can I ask where you are with it today?
Speaker 3:Sure. Well, I'm going to say two things that shocked me. One of them was how far back we are in terms of the gender wars or the sex wars. I've been studying gender and sexuality sort of violence against different communities for ages, but to come face to face with the misogyny that is so prevalent over and over and over again was arresting.
Speaker 3:The second thing that is was a really interesting discovery, and this relates to me being sober and initially being a bit concerned about being around people who might want to have alcohol during a date. I met with a lot of people and there was only one very young person who was uncomfortable with not having alcohol during our date and that really opened me up to understanding how important wellness is to men and and just so that was a really interesting discovery so few people drink in the way that I certainly was raised to drink, which was hard Prairie girl, a case of beer before the bar type of thing. You know that was not healthy, and I'm just seeing there's some really positive shifts in terms of how people are approaching, at least in the dates with me, that they're really open to people who are on a sober journey or don't want to drink for different reasons. So those are two really important things that I learned.
Speaker 2:Very important and I know I hear a lot about, because there's a little bit of a sober movement happening, especially online. But people are starting to cut down, especially as they get into perimenopause, menopause, cut down on their alcohol consumption, but they're feeling stigmatized. People are giving them a hard time for not drinking. It should be the other way, perhaps, but, trina, thank you so much for joining the podcast this evening. I really appreciate it, and thanks so much for your fabulous book. That's awesome, sticky, sexy, sad, swipe Culture and the Darker Side of Dating Apps. How can people get your book and how can people get in touch with you?
Speaker 3:Yes, great. Well, I just want to say also, Maureen, thank you very much for having me and for promoting my book. I really appreciate it. You can buy the book wherever books are sold. If your local indie bookstore doesn't have it, they can certainly order it in. The publisher is the University of Toronto Press. You can get it on there. You can also get it on Amazon. And in terms of where I spend my time online, I'm a Gen X or so. Of course it's Instagram. It's just my first and last name. I also have a Substack newsletter which is called God Alight, and I have a little page on psychology. Today I'm on Facebook, I'm on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:Wonderful, fantastic. Well, if you are listening out there and you are in the dating world whether it be the dating app world or another pickleball tournament or whatever you are going to want to read Sticky, sexy Sets White Culture and the Darker Side of Dating Apps by Trina Orchard, who is a professor and anthropologist and the author of this book. Trina, thanks again so much. I really appreciate it and love talking to you and loved your book.
Speaker 3:It was my pleasure, thank you.
Speaker 2:You are so welcome. That was Trina Orchard, as I said, anthropologist and author of Sticky, sexy, sad Swipe Culture and the Darker Side of Dating Apps, and I am Maureen McGrath, registered nurse, nurse, continence advisor, host of this podcast. If you think this might help somebody, please feel free to share the episode. There's lots of episodes on my podcast, so feel free to go and tune into some of those. Give me a follow A review is always appreciated and, of course, thanks so much for tuning in. Thanks so much for tuning in. I'm Maureen McGrath and you have been listening to the Sunday Night Health Show podcast. If you want to hear this podcast or any other segment again, feel free to go to iTunes, spotify or Google Play or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. You can always email me, nursetalk at hotmailcom or text the show 604-765-9287. That's 604-765-9287. Or head on over to my website for more information, maureenmcgrathcom.
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