Nurse Maureen‘s Health Show
Welcome to Nurse Maureen's Health Show Podcast where we dive deep into all things health, sex, menopause, relationships, parenting, communication and more! Hosted by a passionate nurse with years of frontline experience, we bring you expert interviews, real-life stories, and the latest insights on staying healthy aging. Nothing is off limits as we delve into overall health, sexual health, mental health, and sexual health. Whether we’re breaking down medical myths, discussing cutting-edge treatments, or chatting with top health professionals, this show is your go-to for practical advice and inspiring conversations.
Nurse Maureen‘s Health Show
Men Were Taught To Express Anger, Women Were Taught to Express Emotions. Alistair Moes of Moose Anger Mangagment joins me to discuss.
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Speaker 1:If you've listened to my podcast in the past, you know that I'm a tennis player, and so recently I was playing tennis with two other women and one guy good friend of mine, and you know we're all good friends and we play, you know, once or twice a week together. He wanted to get back into playing. So you know we had a space open up and then it just turned out that way. But on one particular game, I noticed well, I noticed a little bit of a trend. He was just seeming to get angrier. And then, on one particular game, he was so angry he slammed his racket against the net and he was just getting so angry, really, with himself, and you know, it wasn't really the person that I thought that I knew. But anyway, as we walked out of there, I said to my friend you know, I saw something on social media today and it said that men were never socialized to express their emotions, but they were taught how to express anger. And women were not taught how to express anger. Rather, they were taught or socialized to be emotional, which is why I've invited my guest on the podcast this evening.
Speaker 1:Good evening. This is Nurse Maureen's Health Show Podcast. I am Maureen McGrath, a registered nurse, nurse, continence advisor, sexual health educator. I have a clinical practice. I see patients in my office who have relationship issues and some pretty significant relationship issues and oftentimes it involves anger or no anger at all, like the patient who told me that she's going through a lovely divorce. Only her husband doesn't want to give her any money and I said doesn't sound like a lovely divorce to me. So I'm delighted to introduce to you, or bring back to my world, alistair Moose. He is the founder at Moose Anger Management, which has been running workshops and educational tools and support services for people, men and women alike, for 30 years. Good evening, alistair. How are you?
Speaker 2:Good evening, maureen. I'm great, thanks, happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining the podcast. I'm delighted to have you. You know, when I was telling you the story, or telling the listeners a story, about my friend playing tennis and he was getting so angry, I just shared that story with him and he burst out laughing and he said I get it, I get it and you know my. My point of that was, you know, not to embarrass him or shame him or anything, but to say you know, you're probably feeling some emotions, like you're disappointed with yourself or, you know, tap into them. What are they? But let's start with are men and women or boys and girls taught or socialized differently about anger? Or even can we step it back and you know what is anger? And is there healthy anger and unhealthy anger? If you can unpack all that and not get too angry with me for asking so many questions, uh well, definitely in.
Speaker 2:In my opinion there is healthy anger and unhealthy anger or destructive anger, because certainly some people take their anger and they become more focused, more determined. And you know, you can see in tennis, for instance, a certain amount of anger in professional tennis players serves them Too much anger and then their game doesn't do very well at all. And I think that's true for all of us. Anger is very physical in us. It rises up, we feel the heat or sometimes a constriction in the chest or the throat, or we feel tension in our forehead as we escalate. And if we're aware of this then we can be intentional with it. But you know, the thousands of people that have come our way for anger management definitely reacted in that moment and did something destructive with it.
Speaker 1:So right and you know, is it fair enough to say that anger is a valid emotion that everyone encounters?
Speaker 2:Well, if, if somebody comes to me and says I never get angry, you know it's like I'm sorry because people probably take advantage of that. They know you're never going to get upset at them. So you know, I mean to varying degrees, of course, because we need to speak up, we need to set healthy boundaries, and it's not unusual that guys will come our way because they've been too nice and they don't know how to express their anger, or women, and you know the same thing, and so we help people connect with their anger to do something healthy with it. You know, I had one woman come to me and she says I don't know what's happened, I've never been like this, but I'm breaking things. I'm like I'm so angry and I went. This is good.
Speaker 2:I mean not not breaking things, but the anger is showing up. And the anger was always there, but it's being expressed, which means she's changing, and so she needed some guidance around how to work with that anger. So she didn't break things, so that it turned into something constructive, so that she spoke up where she needed to speak up with the right person at the right time for the right reasons, in the right way. You know, which is not easy. That's not what most of us I did not see that growing up, I saw avoidance or anger you know too much anger out or things being broken, and when I started doing anger management groups, I realized, wow, I have a lot to learn, because my role models were not great in this area, so I keep on learning. There's always more.
Speaker 1:Right, and I don't think any of us had were taught about, just like finances. We weren't taught about healthy anger. I see a lot of women in my clinical practice who put up with a lot and with a smile on their face, but they're in the office because they're sick. Their body says no. They may not be saying no or they may not be getting angry or upset when you know, to be honest with you, they've lost their homes or they're doing the lion's share of everything and their partner is at home sitting watching video games and drinking beer all day and kind of getting into themselves and they're just like, well, that's just the way that he is and I've accepted that. But anger isn't a part of it. Until you almost get permission for women to be angry. And how much truth is there? That statement that you posted on Instagram about women are not taught how to express their anger, but they're taught how to express emotions. And men are not taught to express emotion, but they are taught that it's okay to get angry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and so little boys or boys in elementary school will walk down the hall arm in arm and they'll talk to each other. But once they get into high school they rarely touch each other unless it's in sports and they um stop opening up to each other because they they get all these messages from society, from other other boys, that that's not cool. Don't show emotion, that's for girls, and the girls, you know, learn well. All the other emotions, except for anger, are acceptable. But you know, when people say an angry woman, a very different image typically shows up than angry man. Like often people will think angry man is, you know, possibly powerful, determined, where angry woman is, you know, crazy, or you know unhinged, whatever the word of the day is. And it's like anger is equally valid no matter who it's in.
Speaker 2:And I think the world needs more respect for women's anger and men need to have more respect for all the other emotions, because I go through a lot with men where I talk about how if we don't spend time with each emotion, then we don't gain emotional maturity. Then we don't know what to do when we go to a funeral. Or we don't know what to do when we go to a funeral or we don't know what to do when bad things happen other than get angry. So if you go to a funeral, you'll see a lot of guys looking very stern, very serious, because they don't know what else to do. They're just containing it all. But any you know, the emotions are very physical and when they rise up, if all their training is get angry or drink or smoke or whatever, then they don't gain that emotional maturity that we need as we get older.
Speaker 1:And they're going to get angrier, potentially from the drinking, and depends on what they're smoking as well, because that can impact their tolerance level and how they feel, and physically and mentally and emotionally. I saw something else you touched a little bit upon. You know, women who get angry are, you know it's not accepted by society. They're deemed emotional, they're deemed unhinged, they're deemed unstable. You know what's wrong with her. Oh my gosh, you know you're getting so angry.
Speaker 1:And a man once said, a wise man once said it's amazing how a couch turns into a bed magically just by telling your wife to calm down. Women get that message calm down, it's not okay for you to get angry, for you to be angry. And then what I see in terms of the vicious cycle is, therefore women don't get angry. Women put up with it, they tolerate it, but they get hair loss and weight gain and heart palpitations and chest pressure and anxiety and insomnia, because it will come out in other ways. What do you teach women who come to your classes? And you do have workshops for men and women alike? Yes, and what's the percentage? By the way, do you see more men than women, women than men? Is it equal?
Speaker 2:we we see significantly more men than women, which is unusual, and most counseling practices it's the other way around, right, uh? However, we are seeing more and more women over time so the number of women coming our way.
Speaker 2:I think women are recognizing more and more that anger is it's a natural, healthy emotion that we all have and they want to understand what to do with it.
Speaker 2:And so they, they, they come our way, and I mean, a lot of the training is similar, but it's with a recognition that the socialization is different. Because, ultimately, when anger shows up, especially if it's something unexpected, then our go-to, that first reaction in our body is to freak out, and that can be to shut down or to overreact out, or to be overly nice to the person that just hurt us, or to run away. And so one of the you know, one of the best things to do is just pause. Pause, because we need to access a different part of our brain than the reactive, survivalist part, which that first, second, that's the first thing that happens. And you know, if we're holding enough tension, if we're already stressed which it seems like a lot of society is already stressed, which it seems like a lot of society is already stressed so people are much more primed, especially around Christmas, driving People are so stressed because there's like 10 times as much traffic, or that's what it seems like.
Speaker 2:And so they're closer to the edge. And for women, I mean part of it is just recognizing that anger is okay, there's nothing wrong with anger, and if you can um, connect with the physicality of the anger, with within, and get to know all the sensations that are happening in your body, how your breathing changes, where and how it moves up in our body and what it does with your thoughts, then we can be aware. It's like we can step a foot or two back and observe or witness what's happening within us rather than just reacting from that place, because the goal is to connect with our core values, what really matters to us, the bigger picture, and respond from that, rather than the survivalist part of us that feels like it's the end of the world.
Speaker 1:Exactly, or they're acting like a five-year-old. They never got past that toddler stage.
Speaker 2:Maybe five-year-old, maybe two-year-old.
Speaker 1:Maybe two and a half exactly. You know, healthy anger essentially comes down to how it is channeled and how you act upon. It is effectively what you're saying. But you know you also mentioned something about running away. You know, and I see you know a lot of women in my practice, because I do a lot of women in my practice, because I do a lot of women's health, and they're not angry that their husband gambled away the house. They're okay with it, that was it. But they then may take to other activities, like seeking pleasure elsewhere. This is oftentimes where extramarital affairs occur or happen because they don't want to deal with the problems at home.
Speaker 1:Finances are a big issue for people. I mean sex and finances are, you know, kind of battling for number one and two. You know the excessive debt that they might have or you know they just ignore what the problem is. They don't get angry, they just. You know there's shame associated with it, there's embarrassment, but there's literally no anger. They stay in situations. You know it perpetuates it, the patterns continue and you know so many women.
Speaker 1:I think if they got angry and were or were allowed to and get angry, it might actually spur them on to make some changes in their life and make their lives improve. I mean, they're getting the short term endorphin release, pleasure release. You know the chemical releases in the body that happens when you know when you're partying and you know out with friends and traveling and you know having that extramarital affair which can be arousing and exciting because they're missing that in the home. But they're missing that. Hey, yeah, I am furious that you know we've lost our house here, or you know you've gambled away this or that or you've racked up the credit cards, you know, until the cows came home and they don't face it. And so what's the cost of you know, or what role does anger have in there? And what's the cost of you know not expressing healthy anger when you have troubles in life that maybe could have been avoided?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, there's multiple parts there. I mean one is when we repress our anger repeatedly, it tends to trash our immune system. So people get sick much more often. With you know hard to diagnose or understand things like fibromyalgia or things like that, because they don't have the ability or the know-how to express what's in them and the anger is internal, like the anger is absolutely within their body. It's just being compartmentalized and they're avoiding it because they don't know what to do with it.
Speaker 2:And often they grew up learning like it's the end of the world, like if they got angry, their parents wouldn't give them any attention.
Speaker 2:Their parents wouldn't give them any attention. So there's that young part of them that feels like, well, if I express my anger, it's the end of the world, because that trauma from having conditional love when they were a kid means that that's in them. But they've never looked at that. But it's like that part takes them over, no matter how intelligent and capable the person is, this thing from their past and often that trauma will go back generations and the trauma has an impact on our DNA and our parents', has an impact on our DNA and our parents' DNA and our grandparents' DNA and that can be handed down to us through generations, and so you see similar dynamics in relationships in all over families, including aunts and uncles and things like that, and so everybody can get along pretty well because it's like they're familiar with this unhealthy relationship where one person does not speak up at all about the fact that they're being mistreated, even if it's subtle. So we need access to our anger, otherwise we're defenseless.
Speaker 1:Right and it's okay to feel anger when expressed in healthy ways. And, you know, by communicating boundaries. Voicing feelings, those are perfectly acceptable and I talked to a lot of women about that in my clinical practice, about, you know, setting boundaries. You know they're going through a divorce often and they'll hear threats from their partner and and I try and say you know what's real here. You know, stick with reality and and it's sure it's okay to get angry about what they're saying about you to your children or you know, but you know, communicate the boundaries keep. You know, express your upset and your anger with the person and you know keeping control of that anger. You know, by letting people around you know that you're upset. You know I am upset about and I can't tell you how many times I've said to women, you know well, have you talked to your ex or your husband or your partner, spouse, whomever, about that? Oh no, I never would. They're afraid to actually express, even talk about how they're upset about.
Speaker 1:You know a certain situation that has gone on. Oftentimes it involves sex or money, to be honest with you or the kids. They, you know they use the kids as pawns in the situation. But you know Gabor Maté talks a lot about healthy anger. He talks a lot about autoimmune diseases as well, and you mentioned people who have repressed anger. It weakens the immune system and you know, you might see that. Is there any evidence to support, you know, the association between repressed anger, you know, I guess, perfectionism, because we don't want anyone to know that we're upset, because they'll tell us to calm down and then we'll look bad. But is there evidence to support that that you know, by expressing emotions for men and anger for women can lead to a healthier immune system in life? Um can lead to a healthier immune system in life.
Speaker 2:So there's a there's a great book by um Soraya Chamali called rage becomes her the power of women's anger, um, and it's extremely well researched, um. So there's tons of studies that uh support that. You know that support that position, that repressing anger has a negative impact on physical health, especially the immune system. But the other thing that comes to mind is that people conflate anger and aggression. They think anger equals aggression.
Speaker 1:Right or that it's raised voices and yelling. That's unhealthy expression of anger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if they get angry it's going to explode right and it'll be counterproductive. And so the work I do with people is to help them understand the part of them that represses the anger and to look at how that exists in their body, like really the physical sensations that occur, so that they connect with it. Because most of the time people feel the shame and the regret and feel like a failure. So they don't look at that, they just avoid it altogether. But we need to get to know that part of us that either gets too angry or not angry enough.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So to know the reactive part of us, and the higher we escalate in those moments, the more our emotional maturity level drops down into single digits exactly and it's not yeah, oh yeah and and it's not to judge people about that it's to understand that part of ourselves, because all of us experienced some kind of trauma growing up, as far as I can figure, and it's and it's turning toward this, facing it with curiosity and non judgment and getting to know that part of us and learning what that part of us actually needs, which usually is to be seen and heard and valued and to have some sort of emotional and physical safety. And it's like we can give that to ourselves if we allow ourselves to get to know what's actually there.
Speaker 1:And I think people think of oh my gosh, if I get angry, that means that I'm going to, you know. Or if I'm given permission to get angry, you know people listening out there thinking that means I can scream at somebody and name call them and, you know, threaten them. Or also, you know, engage in throwing things, or because I am angry and I was told that that's okay. But there's unhealthy anger. And then there's healthy anger, and you know what. And then there's healthy anger, and you know what are some examples of healthy anger expressions.
Speaker 2:Well, and it depends on the environment, healthy anger on a construction site can include very much raised voices and swearing and nobody feels hurt afterwards, whereas, you know, if you're in a library or you're at home and there's little kids around, then it's very different Anger can still be expressed. I'm really upset right now. You know, might be the anger with the kids, maybe just a little bit of you know, raised voice, but the love is still present and you're not punishing them because of it, right? It's just they need to know that if they do certain things, that, yeah, you're not going to be happy, and then they can learn that anger actually is something that is also connected with regret and sadness and disappointment and all sorts of other things.
Speaker 2:Anger does not stand alone. So there's a lot of complexity with anger. There's history and there's, depending on the current circumstances. Most of the time when people come to see us, there's been a lot of stress in their life. Often somebody has died within the last year, or they've moved, or they've changed jobs or their you know mother-in-law or their father-in-law had came to live with them for, stayed months longer than expected, or whatever.
Speaker 2:It might be right. There's usually a whole bunch of stuff and they haven't been sleeping well, they haven't been doing the things that inspire them, the hobbies or the activities art, music, getting out into nature. They've been just focused on the problems and then their life starts to feel like nothing but problems and then they're holding all this tension and so they react way quicker, and so sometimes it's not until they start noticing their breathing and maybe do some meditation or breathing exercises and start focusing on more self-care so that they sleep better, that they cut back or cut out alcohol or other drugs and really focus on bringing their nervous system into a place where they're calmer, they're less reactive, they're less jittery.
Speaker 1:And you're really teaching people to express their emotions essentially and get in touch with themselves. Get back to the center. You know women are often conditioned to suppress anger, which we talked about, and we know that can affect the immune system, but they're also taught to hide the anger. I don't want my children to know that we've had this issue. I don't want my children to. You know, know that I was upset. You know what impact does that have on generations to come, on children themselves. And you know, know that I was upset. You know what impact does that have on generations to come, on children themselves. And you know kids are smart. They know they know something's going on.
Speaker 1:They know exactly what's going on.
Speaker 2:They feel it. They feel it right, resonating through their body, they pick up on it. It's like we're tuning forks and it's not unusual that somebody says to me oh, I never saw my parents fight and I said oh, that's too bad, and not that you want to fight in front of your kids, but it's important that parents show anger and intensity and that they have the difficult conversation and, when the kids can see them get angry and then stop and breathe and pull back, apologize right away If you said or did something that too much.
Speaker 2:That ability to pull back is powerful, and if your kids see that, then they learn that Right. So, whatever you know, whatever the example is that you're setting, and if your kids see that, then they learn that Right. So, whatever you know, whatever the example is that you're setting, that's what they will learn. And if they never see you get angry, that you're just containing it all the time, then they learn. Well, you just never express anger to your partner, or you do something behind doors but you just hold it in there. Or you do something behind doors but you just hold it in there, and that's that's really. You know, nothing gets resolved when we just hold it all back.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And then things build up and the resentment builds up and nothing gets resolved. Some of us witnessed that growing up and the emotions, like anger, are going to be expressed. That's all they need. Usually it needs about 90 seconds, but people will withhold things for decades because this young part of them feels like it's the end of the world. And then, when they say it out loud and the world doesn't end, it's like oh, interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they release a lot of the pain. I often say that you know, find somebody to speak to, that you know, you trust. These parental and societal role models influence the way that boys and girls learn to process and express anger and they're just going to take that into their relationships because they, you know, children learn what they live. Essentially, you know, women are often labeled as emotional, hysterical, unhinged when expressing anger, while men are seen as assertive or passionate about it. And what effect do these labels have in terms of healthy relationships and healthy lives?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and it's about societies, but especially men's, but also women's discomfort with women who are angry, because if you learn that growing up, then there tends to be a lot of judgment and criticism, internally or externally, if a woman is being angry.
Speaker 2:And then there's no space for that anger. So if I work with couples and this can go either way in the direction if it's a heterosexual couple that one of them is reluctant to show anger and the other one is often reluctant to hear it, but sometimes the guy actually needs to express the anger and his female partner will actually appreciate it because he's alive, he's got some energy right and the other way around it's like the guy needs to become more comfortable and create a safe space for her anger, so that she learns that if she expresses the anger that it's going to be okay and that he can have some compassion, recognizing that behind the anger is hurt and pain and sadness or grief or whatever it might be.
Speaker 1:Or fear. You know a lot of people when they were kids. You know a parent may have gotten angry and then the parent may have left, and so they may have this fear of abandonment if they get angry or somebody gets angry. I do want to ask you, alistair, about your website, because people are probably listening, thinking how can I get in touch with Alistair and his programs at Moose Anger Management?
Speaker 2:Angerman Angermanonline. So Angerman like Superman.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And we have a team of therapists you know women and men, and we see couples and families, mostly individuals, teenagers up to whatever age. We see people in their 80s.
Speaker 1:An anger man. Does that refer to you? Because it's not just anger man, it's anger women, it's anger kids, it's anger employees, it's anger women, it's anger kids, it's anger employees, it's anger friends, and we have a women's website, which is healingangerca.
Speaker 2:So my partner, alejandra uh, runs the women's side of things and we have a number of of women that work with us and we have women's groups that start regularly. Certainly, we have groups starting in January for men and for women, and I do what are called shadow work groups for men, which I do in person downtown Vancouver. All the other groups we do are online and we have people join us from all over the world for those that's fantastic. But I like to do some deeper trauma.
Speaker 2:Type of trauma healing work with men in person, small groups.
Speaker 1:And so you've been in the biz for 30 years, coming up in January. Congratulations.
Speaker 2:It's incredible work. That's amazing.
Speaker 1:I know that's awesome. You've healed a lot of anger and helped a lot of people. Now, what prompted you? What inspired you to get into this type of work?
Speaker 2:Well, I had a degree in psychology and I worked a number of jobs that were kind of toxic and uh, and somebody asked me when um to run an anger management group, and um, and I just jumped at it and said, oh yeah, I mean, I was really, you know, one of those things where you're really confident on the phone and then you hang up the phone and go ah um, and once I started doing those groups, I realized, wow, I have so much to learn, but the people that came to the groups seemed to really get a lot out of it, and I got a lot out of it.
Speaker 2:So everybody, everybody wins. And now I've worked with thousands of people and I keep learning and I keep on taking training, and you, know, engaging in men's groups and all sorts of different things like that, and I work with quite a few women as well. Like half of my one-on-one clients are women, wow.
Speaker 1:It's amazing A couple of things. I know that sometimes people are, you know, mandated by the courts to come and see you. You never wanted to get that, to get to that place where they're mandated to come and see you. But you know, you mentioned about workplace toxic, workplaces. I mean, I think they're, you know, as common as anything and you know, and so many people react in the same way. They seem to be the nice people that are on the receiving end of workplace bullying.
Speaker 1:I've been on the receiving end myself at a recent situation and I mean, I didn't get angry, to be honest with you, it's not part of my makeup and so that's probably. I definitely need to sign up for some therapy there. But I expressed my uh, feelings, thoughts, and I said to the person you've been bullying me for a year, so you know they were, they were kind of pretending to be so sorry that I was, you know, leaving, uh, a particular position, and I said, and they were, they were so confused by my reaction. I'm like, no, I'm relieved, you've bullied me for a year. And they went dead silent and I thought, well, that's an interesting reaction. Silence, anyway, nothing, and uh, but then I found out later that this person had actually been, um, she'd been investigated for racial discrimination and, uh, workplace bullying by five people at the same company, which was validating for me. And I did speak to those people Angry. They were so angry Like there was such a continuum of anger, in part because nobody validated their situations, but they almost felt like I had validated the situation. I mean, every time somebody gets added to the pile it's more validation, but you know it's the workplace is.
Speaker 1:You know, you see some people. They're throwing things at work, they're angry, they say nasty things, they get away with it or they go so far as to target somebody and bully them and then you know, as we've talked about in the past, there's no other option but to leave. You know, and I see a lot of women in my clinical practice because I've, you know, researched the area. I've spoken on workplace bullying. I understand it, I saw it the second it began and I knew you know what the outcome was going to be and eventually that was the outcome and maybe that person felt that they had some power for a moment and whatever.
Speaker 1:But you know, things worked out great, as they usually do when you leave a dark place, you know the lights go on, but you know it's so toxic these workplaces, people are going to work and they are getting mentally ill. You know it's psychological injury and they don't realize it and they're not expressing their anger, they're just putting up with it. They're getting depleted, they're getting exhausted. You know what would you say to somebody? You know simply who is the target of a workplace bully or working in a toxic environment, I say leave. But you know that's not.
Speaker 2:Well, it's easy to say leave right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:But really they need to talk to somebody so that they can feel validated, and somebody who can help them validate what's happening for them, why they're feeling this sense of powerlessness and failure and how they're. You know they. Often people have had a great career and after a year of being bullied, or two or three or more, the person feels like they're useless, that they're incapable, they lose their ability to speak up, and so if somebody can actually validate that, as you did and the other thing is, you understood what was going on and you also had an exit strategy, so you were not as powerless as some other people, um, who may not have even understood what was going on. You know, like the, the frog in the water that's slowly heating up to boiling doesn't recognize what's happening, um, so people really lose themselves and, uh, it's. It's tragic, but I definitely get people sent to us through the workplace on a regular basis as well.
Speaker 1:You know, and that's the thing you know initially, like you see, people who are classic targets. I feel like I'm a classic target because you know I'm easygoing, you know I don't get flustered a lot. I'm not I really need to tap into my anger, but you know, that's just not my personality, I just don't have that. I like the lower heart rate, I don't really like a feeling of a high heart rate. But you know, you see, the people who would never be a target and they would say the second somebody pulled that on me. I'd tell them where to go. You know, and you just know that it's going to end for them there, whereas the other type of target is patient, easygoing, going to put up with it, busy doing their work. So they're not reporting them. You know they're not documenting them. Perhaps you know the situation.
Speaker 1:Fortunately I've documented everything and you know and I always advise that to people, yeah, because you never know. You know and it's it's harder to remember it, and so because I recognize it fairly quickly. With an email that was, you know, a mile long and full of nothing, you know, and talking about her boyfriend, and you know I mean that it was ridiculous and I thought this is ridiculous. And then my response was very simple, like sure, give me a call sometime, and you know. And then she expressed how angry she was that I didn't really. You know, she wanted a four or five hour email response from me and I wasn't going to give that time I wasn't going to rent the space in my head for free.
Speaker 1:You know she wasn't allowing her to do that and and so I didn't. You know, I just responded with yeah, whatever. She asked for something, you know, want to talk about it? Okay, I'll talk about it. Never, of course. Never followed up, never talked about it, never. But you know, I kind of think I threw her a little bit. She didn't know what to make of me. But again, you know, there is life on the other side of workplace bullying. There's life on the other side of expressing emotions and anger, which I think you've articulated beautifully today, Alistair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for that. And the other part is that the bully grew up and was bullied, like whatever somebody does. It's like they witnessed that growing up and probably were on the receiving end of it, because when we're little, you know, we can't really bully others so much, but we see it around us or we experience being bullied, and so then they repeat it, and they're often when the bully doesn't see any other way in their head that this is the only possible way. You're either bullied or you're being a bully. So you may as well be the bully, but it's like they're being run by their history and the person was silent because they they can't take any accountability. Accountability is the end of the world.
Speaker 2:And so, you know you just like she had no response, and this was not the first time somebody had told her that she'd she was being a bully. Oh no, yeah, you also have a. You have a. You know you have a powerful voice Like your. Your voice has some something to it where it's not uh, you know it's not aggressive or anything like that, but it's like there's some fullness to it that it doesn't sound like you're a pushover it doesn't, but I am you cover it up beautifully.
Speaker 1:Fake it till, you make it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so well done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I mean certain things I'm very principally oriented on, but other things I'm just like oh, I don't know how to deal with that, you know. I mean, you know I'm human as well and you know I have to say, navigating that has been, you know, a difficult one for me, because it is so common and I've done so much contract work and work for so many. You know people will name companies. I'm like, oh, I did some work for them. I did some work for them, them, them, them Like.
Speaker 1:So I've encountered so many people that I think my risk of being a target is high. And you know people don't like when others come into the company, take a look, you know how are we going to. You know they don't like that person because, you know, automatically, even though I think I'm likable, I feel like once they get to know me, I'm like you'd like me at a party. But you know, people feel threatened People, you know I hate to say it, but they have a range of emotions and I'm not saying you know, people are jealous, but you know people have been jealous of ridiculous things. You know, and it's all in there, they're playing head games with themselves. And one other question I had for you before I let you go. I'll eventually let you go, but this is, you know, great therapy for me.
Speaker 1:You know, when people lose it, men or women, they lose it over nothing, over something that is built up in their head, you know, and the relationship ends. So they might have been drunk and they might have just lost it. And you know, and the relationship ends. So they might have been drunk and they might have just lost it and, you know, lost their cool, screaming, slamming doors, you know and and then can never resolve that. Like how much cause that? Happens a lot. How much is it about the? And it's usually the person who's on the receiving end of that behavior. That is like what did I do? I feel so badly. They grovel, they apologize, they do that. Nothing works. How much shame and embarrassment do people have when they lose it outright?
Speaker 2:Well, often everybody involved has embarrassment and shame and you know, we turn that shame into something healthy by facing it, by turning toward what we've done and taking responsibility. It's like the adult response is to own it and then we can grow from it. We can have some compassion for ourselves, for the other person, we can figure out what can I do to repair, if anything. And you know, short term, longer term, and how did I? You know, I need to understand the part of me that wants to freak out and lose it. What are all the things that surrounded that led up to that? Almost always a significant buildup prior to it, where the person was more and more stressed and sleep deprived, and there's a history to it. So if somebody is willing to take the time and often spend money with the therapist and really dive into that, then they understand themselves better. So they turn that divorce or that terrible thing that happened into personal growth and more self-control and more self-awareness and better relationships. But that's not what most people do.
Speaker 1:No, no, they don't. That sounds like pretty progressive. And the sad thing is, is this anger, you know, this volatile anger get often gets passed down through the generations, because that's what, you know, people learn is acceptable and is okay and it's. And it's just so sad if we could just take responsibility, accountability and, you know, know that none of us are perfect. We make mistakes, we make big mistakes, but life does go on. After big mistakes and you know it's, you have better relationships and, ultimately, a better quality of life and you might even be a bit healthier. Alistair, thanks so much. It's Moose Anger Management and the website again is.
Speaker 2:Angermanonline Angermanonline, and there's tons of information, tons of videos and things like that there and all the different things that we work with, because anger is connected with so much more than just anger. There's always other emotions and anxiety and stress and et cetera.
Speaker 1:And anger can be expressed in healthy ways. You know it's such amazing work that you're doing, trying to make the world a more peaceful place, essentially, and a healthier place, and especially at the holiday season. So, Alistair, thank you so much for joining the podcast. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Real pleasure talking with you again, Maureen.
Speaker 1:Yes, and we'll talk again, and again, and again.
Speaker 2:Sounds good. Sounds good, all right, you take care, alistair. Lovely to have you.
Speaker 1:That was Alistair Moose of Moose Anger Management. Angermanonline is the website if you have an issue expressing anger or you are on the receiving end of somebody who is volatile or physically abusive or losing their cool, especially over nothing, because you know what. Sometimes it's cool to lose your cool in a healthy way, but you know, if you're getting sick or you're not feeling that things are going well in your life from an anger or lack of anger expression perspective, give Angermanonline Alistair Moose of Moose Anger Management a call. Thank you so much for tuning in and if you're feeling generous, I'd love for you to go online and either rate the podcast or give me a review. I would really appreciate that and I appreciate feedback, so you know it does not have to be a positive review. I also would love to hear what subjects you would like to talk about in 2025. We have some big plans, but nothing can happen without you, because you are all amazing and if you think that somebody would benefit from listening to this podcast episode, please share with them.
Speaker 1:I'm Maureen McGrath and you have been listening to Nurse Maureen's Health Show Podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in. I'm Maureen McGrath and you have been listening to the Sunday Night Health Show Podcast. If you want to hear this podcast or any other segment again, feel free to go to iTunes, spotify or Google Play or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. You can always email me nursetalk at hotmailcom or text the show 604-765-9287. That's 604-765-9287. Or head on over to my website for more information, maureenmcgrathcom. It's been my pleasure to spend this time with you.
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