Nurse Maureen‘s Health Show
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Nurse Maureen‘s Health Show
Modern Justice: The Controversial Case of Luigi Mangione
ladies, let's talk about something we don't often talk about pelvic floor health. Whether it's postpartum changes, aging or just the demands of everyday life, many women struggle with bladder leaks and a lack of self-confidence. But what if I told you there's an effortless solution meet the emcella chair just 30 minutes, fully dressed, and it will do thousands of kegels for you, strengthen your pelvic floor, improve and feel confident again. So say no to incontinence and start to enjoy life again leak-free. Ask your doctor about the Emcella chair. For more information, go to wwwemcellacom. That's wwwemcellacom.
Speaker 1:He came from a prominent Maryland family, was valedictorian of his private high school, attended an Ivy League school, got a bachelor's degree and a master's degree as well, then pulled away from a life of privilege Not exactly your run-of-the-mill alleged cold blood murderer. I'm talking about Luigi Mangione. Good evening, I am Maureen McGrath, a registered nurse, nurse, continence advisor, sexual health educator and host of this podcast, nurse Maureen's Health Show podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. I really appreciate that and would love it if you could give the podcast a review or rate the podcast. It's always great to hear your feedback and also any subjects that you'd like to talk about. You can text the show as well, I'm delighted to have my guest that I'm going to be speaking with very shortly about, because this case has exploded on the Internet and it's basically in support of Luigi Mangione, an alleged murderer, a seeming vigilante, a modern day Robin Hood.
Speaker 1:Joining me on the line to discuss this is Matt Palacco. He is a postdoctoral research fellow at the University of Toronto. He researches class politics and the effects of income equality on political behavior. Good evening, matt. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:Hi, maureen, I'm good. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm delighted to have you on to talk about this. I've read some of your work on it and I mean this is just really a shocking case, a sad, sad story. And honestly, you know my heart breaks for Brian Thompson, the CEO who was allegedly killed by Luigi Mangione. You know his family, his young sons, parents, siblings, friends. I mean it's, it's horrific.
Speaker 1:But the gunman who allegedly killed United Health Care Insurance executive CEO Brian Thompson in a horrific early morning shooting left behind a cryptic message at the scene, according to police, and those words because we're always looking for motive. So the three words that were left behind on the bullet casings were denied, deposed and delay. They were carved into live rounds and shell casings. They were found outside of the Hilton Hotel on 6th Avenue in New York City, in Midtown Manhattan, where Thompson, who is 50 years old, was gunned down. And these are eerie and brazen messages. But it's reflective of the name of a book called Delay, deny, defend, why Insurance Companies Don't Pay Claims and what you Can Do About it. But even more shocking because you know we saw this man gunned down. The videos were on TV, you know, from behind, shot a couple of times. But there is support for the alleged gunman, luigi Mangione. Many offered denials and prayers.
Speaker 3:Other people had this to say about it we are here because I have been personally affected by my health care and my inability to get health care because of my insurance and our just frankly terrible American health care system. Universal health care now, or free, luigi, privatized health care is a crime against humanity. Every other country, every other industrialized country on the planet has it. I don't think we would struggle that much to find one that would work for us.
Speaker 4:That systematic murder is the same as murder with a gun. There's no difference, so it should be dealt like it would gun down a serial killer. Someone has to have the courage to say the truth, and I think Luigi has much more courage than I have because I would never do this, so I have to stand by him and show support.
Speaker 1:One comment mentioned how Brian's claim would be denied because gunshot is not a pre-existing condition. Other users on platforms like X and Instagram, have called Luigi a hero, a king legend. His social media follower count surged after his arrest, with some fans even jokingly citing his appearance as a defense, calling him too hot to convict Matt. I mean, it's just unbelievable, this story, and it's also sad. Luigi comes from a prominent family who did a lot of good for the community. He allegedly was missing for six months prior to this, his mother having filed a missing persons report just weeks before all of this. But how does the public perception of being denied by insurance companies contribute to feelings of betrayal and outrage? Because I think that's what we're seeing here.
Speaker 2:Contribute to feelings of betrayal and outrage, because I think that's what we're seeing here. Yes, I definitely agree. I think it is a really big factor in this case. I mean, the private health insurance industry is really unpopular in the US. It's an incredibly complicated and difficult to navigate system, and very expensive Prices are negotiating between providers and insurers, so what's charged to patients or insurance companies often has a little resemblance to the actual costs of providing medical services. This makes it very profitable. So, basically, the US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world, but it consistently delivers terrible results compared to other Western nations.
Speaker 2:We saw after the murder. There was an analysis of a sample of online comments carried out by a research firm called One Click, and they found that the vast majority of comments around 80 percent of them contained criticism of the health care system. So clearly, industry is a big factor in this case, and we've seen that nearly one in five insured adults have experienced claim denials just in the past year. They're losing service by the Commonwealth Fund here, so the denial of claims can lead to major problems for patients, both in terms of care and their finances. These insurers go to great lengths to deny claims and they can saddle people with massive bills that they're never able to pay off.
Speaker 2:So there really is a big medical debt crisis for many people in the US and the denial of the insurance claims is sort of fueling much of the outrage that we're seeing. There's been attempts to solve these problems, like we saw with Obama's Affordable Care Act, but that kind of just created expectations that reform would deliver something, but it hasn't really solved the issue here. Solve the issue here and the industry profits. They tend to increase in direct proportion to the denial of needed care. So when these wrongs are occurring, people believe they can be very vivid for them and very personal for people. So that leads to a lot of outrage at the healthcare industry, especially through the denial of these claims that you mentioned.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and you know, a lot of times I've heard on TV recently. You know this was a healthcare executive and I think, no, it actually wasn't a healthcare executive. It was an insurance CEO executive, which is very different, and you're right. People can become saddled with incredible debt, never being able to pay, they file for bankruptcies and people die. But how do people reconcile and supporting an alleged murderer like Mangione with the knowledge that Brian Thompson has a family is a man? He was really innocently walking down the street. Yes, he may have made $10 million and he may have created an AI app that you know denied 90 percent of claims, apparently, but how can we support this? I mean, I've heard some people say well, he's responsible for you know, there's blood on his hands. Essentially, yeah, Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would hope that this would be difficult to reconcile for many people. As you mentioned, it was a cold, blooded murder carried out in public, in broad daylight, with premeditation. Obviously, it looks like Brian Thompson has two teenage sons and an estranged wife. They released a very heartfelt statement of their love for Brian and how he will be missed, of their love for Brian and how he will be missed. So, even though people may despise some of the actions of his company, uh, you know, he was just the CEO, uh, and didn't personally decide to deny people insurance that might've eventually led to to issues or deaths of people. So, even though Mangione, um and and many others may perceive what he did is just or, uh you know, a form of vigilante justice, the murder really in no way equates to Brian Thompson's actions on a personal level. Certainly we know about him.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I'm curious if their anger toward insurance companies is strong enough to override moral considerations, because it seems like that's the case with with uh, luigi mangione and the people who are supporting him all over the internet and and, of course, because of the internet, you know, it's just changed the face of this whole case. But why do you think certain individuals accused of heinous crimes like luigi mangione end up with internet supporters? Is it a fascination with true crime, or is it something deeper? Or is it just about they know somebody who's been denied an insurance claim?
Speaker 2:I think a fascination with true crime probably plays some role, but in this case it's probably the outright brazenness and shock of the murder you know played out in broad daylight in front of a busy Manhattan hotel, downtown Manhattan. And just the fact it was caught on camera is important here, I think, because everyone has gotten to see the murder, which is rarely the case for crimes such as this. It's really something we only really see happen in the movies. But we know how popular these movies are that involve violent crime and assassinations like the Godfather example. So people also need to think of violence of the sort that Mangione committed as being undertaken by a radical with an extreme ideology. Because, rationally, why else would someone undertake something like this, so brazen and awful?
Speaker 1:So people probably view him as a leader worth following Absolutely, and I think it's shocking too that he's not some criminal. He's from a prominent family, went to the best schools. I think there's some fascination there as well, but it couldn't get crazier, it seems. And then it does, and cryptocurrency enthusiasts are trading millions in meme coins that have been inspired by this alleged fatal shooting of UnitedHealthcare CEO, brian Thompson, coins with names like Free Luigi Mangione and Justice for Luigi Mangione. Some people have offered to pay for his legal bills. One coin named Luigi, launched on the day Mangione was charged with murder, briefly reached a market cap exceeding $76 million. I mean, people are really rooting for this guy, and it maybe makes you think that, you know, is that going to influence jurors? I mean, is there's you know? Can we find people who are actually going to be, you know, fair and just? And? But do you think Mangione's case represents a broader frustration with systems that seem to prioritize profit over people, and could this be why people are rallying behind him?
Speaker 2:over people, and could this be why people are rallying behind him? Yeah, definitely. I think this is the biggest reason why so many people are really rallying behind him as you mentioned the bullet shell case scenes had the healthcare related words deny, defend and depose written on them.
Speaker 2:So he really seems to be motivated by his own experiences with the health insurance industry. It was mentioned that he suffered from a very serious back condition. You know it caused a lot of pain and then he mentioned in his manifesto there that the insurance industry has gotten too powerful. There are basically parasites. You know they undertake too much corruption and greed so he was going to make them kind of pay up through this terrible method. So obviously what he did was morally wrong, but the reasons for his actions there is some truth to the corruption and greed that we see with the healthcare industry.
Speaker 1:I think From a sociological perspective or psychological? What factors contribute to the internet's tendency to turn alleged criminals into heroes or celebrities?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think we see a lot of glorification of killers in entertainment. I mean, it seems every week there's some new Netflix documentary about a killer. So I would also say that we have this culture that is becoming increasingly dominated by, you know, obsession with celebrities, and the advent of social media has really contributed to this. Many people themselves want to have their own internet fame, you know, to be a social media influencer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see that internet fame. People want that. You know, I was thinking the other day. I see so many people. You know, it used to be that people went to the White House or they, you know, went to a dinner or they gave a talk and somebody took a picture of them. Now everybody's taking a picture of themselves. I was so honored to be invited here and I'm just like what? What has happened to us? Is there no humility left? But you know, everybody is making themselves famous, if that makes any sense, and I'm starting to not like those people who are bragging, if you will, for lack of a better word. How does social media platform algorithms amplify narratives around controversial figures like Mangione? So are they complicit in glorifying alleged criminals in this, and even Luigi Mangione in this case?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are complicit in glorifying it, but I would say that they certainly amplify narratives surrounding them. So I mean, we see, with this case it's reached unprecedented levels of engagement. Online engagement even surpassed the assassination attempt on Donald Trump that we saw in the summer. So social media has played a big role in this. Social media companies want to increase engagement and the best way to do this is to play on people's emotions. So you know, they feel greater anger and toxicity and these get ratcheted up to the top of people's feeds. It only has increased, really, with Twitter's purchase by Elon Musk, who's changed these algorithms to be even more pushing these things to the front. And then we kind of see, with this particular event, how much meme-ification has occurred, because a big event like this can occur and then people will be immediately creating memes of it, whether jokingly or whatever, but it just creates much more exposure of the event, especially amongst young people.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I think true crime podcasts are the most popular podcasts, when I think it should be health podcast myself, but I could be a little bit biased there. But anyway, health matters to people, obviously, you know. That's demonstrated in this case, even with younger people. What is the illusory truth effect and what role does that play in the Mangione case?
Speaker 2:truth effect, and what role does that play in the Mangione case? Yeah, so losing truth effect is really the tendency to believe false information to be true, even if you've been exposed, even if it's been exposed as a lie or being incorrect. So people will become susceptible to this when they feel that something is true, especially when it feels familiar. Constant repetition makes it easier to break down the brain's defenses and deciding what is actually logical and rational, and every day we're faced with, you know, making so many decisions that, in order to conserve energy, we often rely on mental shortcuts and repetition to help us make these judgments. So it makes it easier to believe in falsehoods through this constant repetition.
Speaker 1:We see that in the elections, don't we?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, you can see it in the Trump campaign, especially over the issue of crime. Violent crime kept repeating over and over again that it's out of control. It was a big part of their campaign message, kind of blaming this on Biden. But in truth we've actually seen violent crime come down in recent years, but most people in the US think that it is on the increase and it's a big issue. People in the US think that it is on the increase and you know it's a big, big issue.
Speaker 1:Right, you know, lost in all of this perhaps is his children, his two sons, who are high school boys from all accounts, and you know we forget about that. We forget about that. Somebody has lost their father, Somebody has lost a friend. You know it's heartbreaking. It will change their lives, you know, for the rest of their lives, the injustice here for them, the innocence, the pain, the grief, the horror of it all. What are the societal consequences of internet communities supporting someone accused of a serious crime like this, and does it affect victims and their families?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I would definitely say so. Basically, everything is online nowadays, you know, and social media is so central to people's lives. Online engagement can really increase anonymity massively. So it makes it more likely that people will, you know, spread online hate or attack others online because people know that you know there won't be any consequences to their actions and then they feel less sympathetic to the victims. So, and also, you can also see that online that the whole concept of death is also much more trivialized. Things kind of seem more like a video game or television. You know, a bit of a virtual reality it has. And then obviously this would impact families such as Brian Thompson negatively. It's a big tragedy. I would hope that they would be able to maybe take solace in online communities that are providing support, because there is a flip side where you can find support online as well.
Speaker 1:Right, you know, and just back to the insurance companies, you know the CEOs and executives who have been pretty much been running the insurance world and you know, I think, a little out of touch with how people were feeling about it. There was quite a mismatch there. You know, brian Thompson didn't have any executive protection, no security detail, had had some threats apparently, but didn't really think anything could possibly happen to him. But now CEOs are scared to death. Industry CEOs have been removing their online profiles. Things are beginning to death. Industry CEOs have been removing their online profiles. Things are beginning to change.
Speaker 1:Anthem, blue Cross, blue Shield, said it would no longer move forward with the policy change to limit the amount of time it would cover the anesthesia that is used in surgeries and procedures in the aftermath of the shooting. I mean, who thinks these things up? You know, it's like we will cover 45 minutes of your anesthesia, but your surgery is going to take two hours, so you're going to be on the hook for the rest of it. You know, will social media's response of basically vindicating an alleged murderer change the insurance industry? Do you think?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, we see these big sympathies towards you know, towards you know, mangione, here, but I think it's probably very difficult to change. It probably won't really lead to much change, because the health insurance industry is a very powerful lobby in the US. The government has become quite unresponsive to citizens and it's riven with deadlock. So there's been some changes small changes at the state level, but it's very, very difficult to make, you know, driven with deadlock. So there's been some changes, small changes at the state level, but it's very, very difficult to make big, sweeping changes in the health insurance industry. And also, we see the majority of Americans are actually happy with their current health plans, so they're much less affected by the industry. Most of the terrible things we see occurring, you know that happen to people that aren't insured and are really on the backs of poor people here. So it's hard to get this solidarity as well to make big changes.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean it's really become, you know, confusing and you know a lot. Oftentimes people's surgeries are denied. I know somebody whose surgery was denied on a Friday. They were having it on Monday and they called them and said we still haven't got approval for this. And then the physician had to call the insurance company and it ended up getting approved. But you know, the insurance companies are the middlemen. I mean, my question is do we really even need insurance companies? But, as you say, they are so powerful and a gigantic ship to turn around. And I mean maybe there'll be small changes as time goes on, but I think this was a big wake up call. What can be done, matt, to address or counteract this kind of Internet support for alleged criminals? I mean, is it even possible in the current digital age?
Speaker 2:Well, I think we definitely need better regulation online. Many people are calling for that, especially towards social media companies, but most of the discussion is kind of focused on TikTok, you know, and how it's being owned by a Chinese company as opposed to security risk for North Americans, and I believe most sectors have really overstated these concerns here, and we should really be focusing on the regulation of social media companies in terms of these algorithms that we mentioned that are kind of encouraging more toxicity and extreme viewpoints, so it would be great to see more regulation in that respect. Some countries are actually raising the minimum age to use social media to about 15 or 16. And there's some talk of maybe bringing that over here, but of course, it's difficult to enforce measures like that. It is an issue, though, where I think there is you can more easily get bipartisan support for, so there is hope that I think regulation can maybe eventually be brought in once more studies have been done, and maybe cases like this would raise more awareness of that to try to bring forth more control.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think, at the end of the day, it's teach your children well, you know, you know what you learn, what you live. Matt, thanks so much for a very interesting conversation and great information.
Speaker 2:Great Thanks for having me. It's good to speak to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nice to speak to you as well. That was Matt Palacco. He's a postdoctoral research fellow at the University of Toronto. He researches class politics and the effects of income inequality on political behavior, and I am Maureen McGrath, your host, and if you feel that anybody would benefit from listening to this episode, feel free to share. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm Maureen McGrath and you have been listening to Nurse Maureen's Health Show Podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in. I'm Maureen McGrath and you have been listening to the Sunday Night Health Show Podcast. If you want to hear this podcast or any other segment again, feel free to go to iTunes, spotify or Google Play or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. You can always email me, nursetalk at hotmailcom or text the show 604-765-9287. That's 604-765-9287 or head on over to my website for more information, maureenmcgrathcom. It's been my pleasure to spend this time with you.
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