Nurse Maureen‘s Health Show
Welcome to Nurse Maureen's Health Show Podcast where we dive deep into all things health, sex, menopause, relationships, parenting, communication and more! Hosted by a passionate nurse with years of frontline experience, we bring you expert interviews, real-life stories, and the latest insights on staying healthy aging. Nothing is off limits as we delve into overall health, sexual health, mental health, and sexual health. Whether we’re breaking down medical myths, discussing cutting-edge treatments, or chatting with top health professionals, this show is your go-to for practical advice and inspiring conversations.
Nurse Maureen‘s Health Show
Why Are Women Expected to Work For Free?
Good evening and welcome to Nurse Maureen's Health Show podcast. I am Maureen McGrath, your registered nurse, nurse, continence advisor, sexual health educator, and I also try and empower women a little bit, and that's what this show is about and that's what we're starting off the new year with. Hopefully you've all had wonderful holidays and you're getting back to it. I have to admit I'm getting back to it kind of slowly, but here we go. I'm so excited to talk to my next guest, a registered environmental health specialist. I met her on LinkedIn after I posted a story somewhat of a story that I was frustrated about, because it's something you've probably heard about the gender pay gap. But it isn't exactly the gender pay gap, because the gender pay gap is the difference in average earnings of people based on gender. It is a widely recognized indicator of gender inequities and it exists across industries and professional levels and there's different ways of measuring the gap, but no matter how you measure it, the the gap still exists and this is kind of a sub-variant of that. So let me explain that. The gender pay gap obviously the difference in pay for people and it's worse for those who face multiple barriers, including racialized women, indigenous women and women with disabilities. It differs by age group and the gap starts from a young age and it carries into senior years and has an impact on quality of life and poverty as well, because earnings are a key determinant of economic well-being in North America and around the world, and it's also symbolic of gender-based discrimination and injustice, and that's according to Moiser Statistics, canada 2019. This is kind of a sub-variant of it, and we know that women get paid less than men typically for the same job. But there's another thing that occurs out there all too frequently, and dare I say that it's more common that women ask women to do this for free, and that is work for free.
Speaker 1:Hence my LinkedIn post, and my post was about being asked to be a keynote speaker at an event. It was a finance event and it was a wealth event. It wasn't even just a finance event, it was a wealth event and it was going to be held at a sw swanky place and the ticket prices were high and you know there were addition in addition to me, there were going to be, you know, 50, 60 other speakers leading workshops and that kind of thing, and when I mentioned that, I had a speaker's fee because I've been speaking for, you know, 10 or 15 years now and it does take time. There's a lot of prep, not to mention on the day, and then follow up, you know, prepping your presentation. It's a tremendous amount of work and I have a certain expertise in this particular field.
Speaker 1:And when I mentioned that on the Zoom call with the person, the person was visibly shocked that I would have wanted to be fairly compensated for my services. Mind you, they were going to be selling tickets and, you know, bringing in wealth, customers and clients, and anyway, the response to my asking for fair compensation was to tell me that they were not-for-profit organization. Well, yeah, I understand. Not-for-profit organizations Doesn't mean that they can't pay people or that they can't make revenue, which she was definitely going to be generating revenue. It hasn't happened yet. It's a year in advance. That was the other thing. You know, I really don't know what I'm going to be doing a year from now, but anyway, to book my calendar out that far and to not compensate me, I just thought absolutely not.
Speaker 1:I have worked for free in the past, I have spoken for free and you know there came a time when I started to resent that because it would take a Saturday away from me or you know, there was a lot more prep than I realized. Anyway, that's why I'm so excited to speak to Kim Dillian, our environmental health specialist, who has encountered the same issue before. I got a number of comments on my LinkedIn post about this particular issue and I would love to hear from you. You can text the show if this has been your experience as well. Kim, great to have you on the program. You're joining me from Nashville, tennessee, one of my favorite cities. How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm very well, I'm home and I'm warm and all is good.
Speaker 1:Well, that's wonderful. That's more than I can say for Canada. I'm freezing. Anyway, it's a little chilly here in the great white north, but nonetheless great to have you. So, first of all, thank you so much for joining the podcast. I really appreciate it. I also want to thank you for commenting on my LinkedIn post. You recall my post? Yes, yes, that I wrote about out of frustration, and also about women do not need to work for free, and we need to actually stop working for free Now. You've had experiences similar to this as well, haven't you?
Speaker 2:A gentleman from a health department on the East Coast said hey, can you come and do this presentation for our health department? I said yes, and I gave him my card and I said call me and we'll talk money, because I'm not going to do this for free. And he kind of gave me this look and he said well, we really want to have you come and do this presentation. I said give me a call and we'll talk. Do you think I ever heard from him? No, so I'm still.
Speaker 2:I'm not, as I'm not as willing to do that sort of thing anymore. I'm a senior environmental health specialist. I've been doing this for 18 years. I have great skills, I you know, but I just I'm not. I can't give away my time because the older I get, time is one of my most precious resources and my money. And how do I spend my money? I can't give away my time to give a presentation which really benefits the junior environmental health professionals who are just brand new since the pandemic. So it gave me pause to think about a lot of different things and let me tell you I tick a lot of diversity boxes, diversity boxes. And it's even more frustrating because I know I'm fantastic at what I do, but I don't think that people appreciate that about me and they think that, oh, you're a woman and kind of middle-aged, and what else are you going to do with your time? Well, I have a lot to do.
Speaker 1:I think it goes back to women's work is not valued. There's something intrinsic in that and you know that that's sort of the idea like why wouldn't you do it for free? You know, somebody else on this post that I wrote got thousands of views and so many comments. But one of the comments was from a woman who wrote you know your point is well taken. But one of the comments was from a woman who wrote you know your point is well taken, I have spoken for free, aka the exposure, practice, opportunity or whatever they convince you to do, whatever they convince you that you are not on the budget. And then she went on to say but, like you, I find it hard not to resent, mostly myself for saying yes, yes, absolutely, I do speak for almost free. She said five hundred500 honorarium for charity events. You know this is the thing. I've had this as well.
Speaker 1:I was recently asked I can't do it because I'm actually not going to be in town. I was recently asked to speak to a group of people about sexual health and sexless marriage, which is something I have expertise in and no offer of money. I had actually spoken for this person before for free, ended up resenting myself, um. But they came back and and and said you know, can you speak at this event? I'm sure you'll get a lot of new clients as a result of it. You know, I? I mean, I didn't want to have to say you know, do I have to say this again? I actually don't work for free. This is my work that I do.
Speaker 1:And but you know, it worked out that because I think women were kind of afraid to speak up and say you know, people are going to judge us if we say we'd like to be compensated and you know, and compensated fairly for the work that we do. But you know, it's good that you went back and asked how can um, at that conference that you did? You know what are some ways that you can compensate me if you're not going to write me a check, because I also think we don't think about that. Or, you know, may I have free registration to this event? You know, ask the question. And and also, then I think we have to say no. I said no to this wealth event and I've never looked back. I'm so glad, actually, because you know I have about 10 or 20 events lined up already this year and I just didn't need another one where I'm not going to be fairly compensated.
Speaker 2:Right, there's a lot of self-respect in the word no.
Speaker 1:There certainly is, and it's just like you know. If I had agreed to that, it was. You know it's at least 40, 50 hours of prep time and presentation as well, and you're also, as you pointed out, you're sharing your expertise. You know. You, your comment on my LinkedIn post was about not for profit, and this person I mean I was born at night, but not last night when she wrote back and said you know, we've made so much progress, we've gotten 50 other women to speak for free and we're not. We're not for profit status, and it's like I mean, you know, that does not mean that you expect people to work for free Just for the listeners. Can you explain what not-for-profit is? Because oftentimes I think people will say well, we're a charity, we're not-for-profit, so which guilts women in particular into speaking for free?
Speaker 2:People do not understand that a non-profit is an organization that has a business license in the communities that they work. If they're a true non-profit with the United States Internal Revenue Service as a non-501c3, it's for educational purposes, and what that means is you can write grants and if you receive a million dollars in grants, you take that money and you pay workers, you pay for their benefits, you pay for conferences, you put the money back into the nonprofit for the betterment of the community that you serve. It doesn't mean that you don't pay yourself a salary. It doesn't mean that you expect qualified, talented, skillful people to work for free. So I think there's a general misunderstanding about nonprofits and there, if they have 501c3 status, there are reporting requirements that they have to follow and otherwise, in other words, they file a tax return and it should be public. If they're receiving public money from state government, from federal government, those tax returns should be made public and they need to be transparent because the taxpayer dollars go to fund that particular nonprofit. So it just it just means that they can't.
Speaker 2:And I'm not I'm not a business major by any means, but I think people use that word nonprofit to guilt people into. Oh, you know what my mom called it, you know, crying the poor mouth and it's like, no, that's not what it is. And if you're charging a registration fee and you're working in the cost of speakers, if you raise I mean, I'm sure it's math, excuse me there has to be a better way to work the numbers, because and to pay the people who are teaching, the up and coming people in the profession and in the industry. So absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know they wanted to draw women in. I do women's health and I do women's intimate health and menopause and sexual health, and so this was a women's wealth conference, and so you know I was being used to draw, you know, women who are interested in that subject, and that's a large percentage of women in their highest earning years, and then, not to compensate me, that's.
Speaker 2:that's no good. I think of the conferences as well. There's an exhibition hall and there's you know a hundred exhibitors, and I know what they have to pay to get a spot in that exhibition hall. Well, where does that money go? And so I started looking at the financials and thinking wait a minute. They have this much money in reserve every year, why aren't they, you know, paying the people that come and do? And I know the annual educational conference is one of the big money makers for this association.
Speaker 1:Now, as a result of this post and I have to say, I've held events myself. I pay everybody. You know interesting one event where I think I've said twice in my life I'm never working for free anymore. And then I went back, I disappointed myself and I did work for free one other time and that time I learned that the um, there were four men involved and three or four female speakers. The men were compensated, the women were given a token, you know, gift certificate for a free coffee and muffin at a local coffee shop. And when I spoke to the woman who was the organizer, she said well, the men wouldn't work for free. And I think we as women have to say well, we're not going to work for free either.
Speaker 1:And so, as a result, I just want to say I have a speaker's fee and a lot of women who commented on my post, who also agreed, you know, women should be fairly compensated for their expertise. They had a speaker's fee as well, and I have. I actually have a media sheet. You know, this is what this will cost if you would like me to come, and you know, and speak at your event. But also, somebody reached out and they said you know, they did a lot of women's empowerment work and you know, work to advance the progress of women, and they had events, but they said they never paid any of the women. And then this year, after reading my post, she decided that she was going to pay the women and she said one of the issues, the biggest issue, was getting women to know their worth, you know, to tell her how much they wanted to be compensated for. You know their, their talks, basically their presentations, and she said it was like pulling teeth. That was so difficult to do, which is interesting as well, because we it's sort of tied finances and women. You know they're kind of tied. You know we're not really taught about it or we're taught to be shamed. You know ashamed about our finances, or you know we're not really taught about it or we're taught to be shamed. You know, ashamed about our finances. Or you know we're supposed to be doing everything. We're supposed to be the carers, the nurturers.
Speaker 1:One fabulous book and I don't know if you've read it, but I have read it is called Know your Value by Mika Brzezinski. Have you read that book? I have not. It's awesome and you know what. And she describes a time when she was working three times as much as her co-hosts. They were napping in the background and they were getting paid three times what she was getting paid. She was saying at the end of the month she didn't have enough money to do her hair, which was on her, or to buy any clothes.
Speaker 1:And I would recommend every woman to read that book. It is awesome, terrific, sounds great. She's with Morning Joe. She's on the show Morning Joe. That sounds terrific. Yeah, it's really good. But I think we need to start saying no, no, I'm not going to work for free, no, I'm not going to work for less than what my hourly wage has, you know, has been deemed or or whatever. And I think, you know, I think we really need, in order for us to, you know, close that gender pay gap, we need to start setting some personal limits and boundary and professional limits and boundaries as well.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I agree, and so will you ever work for free, kim? No, no, I'm never going to work for free, kim. No, no, I'm never going to work for free again.
Speaker 2:And it comes back to what are the most precious things in my life right now Time and the time from work that I get to do things that I like to do.
Speaker 2:And if I want to volunteer for the 4-H, which is my plan, I talked to a guy from 4-H today here locally in Nashville and I want to go work with fourth graders a couple hours a week, yes, but as far as my professional skills and you talked about your hourly wage, your hourly compensation that you receive from your employer or you have, you know, developed that formula for yourself. But it's all the collateral things as well, like the prep and the travel and to get to the airport and paying for your parking at the airport and your meals and your you know, your incidentals and your per diem and all those sorts of things. So when you start adding it up, I mean that's easy to do, you can just like put that number on paper. When you see the numbers, yes, like I know I'm, I'm going to be compensated. Or, thank you and, calm, call me when you can make it work for both of us.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I have to say that I would get some upset from my family. You know, if I, well, starting with my husband, who would always say to me are you getting paid for it? Because he knew he knows the type of person that I am and he knows that I would, you know, agree and you know, feel badly and want to help out. And he would say, you know, are you getting compensated? And if I wasn't, you know he would be why are you doing that for free? And you know we could be doing this and you're doing that on a Saturday and you're not even getting paid.
Speaker 1:You know, and also, I have to say, male friends of mine who I might have shared the story with you know they're just like, why wouldn't they pay you? You're a professional speaker. You know like why, and not even I don't even consider myself a professional speaker, but whatever that means. But a professional speaker, but whatever that means. But you know I do speaking as part of the work that I do, and it's just like, you know they, the men's mentality was very different than the women's, who were like well, you know if it's going to increase your exposure, but you know it's up to me to increase my exposure if I want more work as a result, and typically it never comes anyway.
Speaker 2:I might add. You know, that reminds me of is this whole in the past couple of years is the influencers who go to these businesses and demand free food and free services and free swag, because it'll give that company quote unquote exposure. And it's the same kind of concept and and I know, when I heard about that I was, I was really upset. I'm like how could anyone I don't care what influencer you are, what you know social media platform you're on you have how dare you walk into this cake shop who makes wedding cakes and demand a free wedding cake? I just I can't get my head around someone expecting something for free. And there's all different ways to talk it, talk about it and make it sound good, but what it really is is giving away my time, giving away my expertise and no, it's not going to happen.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And you know I think people or women are nervous to decline an offer because it's. You know, it's good for our ego when somebody asks us to speak, but then when you find out no, you won't be compensated for it. You know it's got to be the hard no, and other other opportunities will come along. You know, I remember thinking this will never happen again, I won't get invited, because you know. But that's not the case. You know there are other opportunities that come. You know, and if you're good at what you do and people know you as a speaker, you know, and if you're good at what you do and people know you as a speaker, you know you will be. I mean, that's kind of the most common one. But I think there's consulting.
Speaker 1:People are asked for their free consulting advice. People are asked for free healthcare advice. You know, uh, women are, um, you know, oftentimes if they have a particular skill, they're asked. You know, um, if somebody, if a woman, can do it for free. But you know, I think it's, it's only fair and that's the only way we're ever going to close this gender gap. You know we have to, and women have to support other women. Women have to pay other women and and I've held events I always pay women and I get a lot of offers from women who'll say, maureen, I'll work with you just for the experience and you don't have to pay me. And I I say, don't say that to me, don't say that to anybody, you know.
Speaker 1:I really don't want. I would not feel good if I were taking all the money myself and not paying. You know people, this is not a volunteer situation when you're holding a conference or you're holding an event. So I often will advise women. You know, no, you must be paid. Tell me what you, you know, would like to be paid, and if they have difficulty, I'll try and help them figure out what would be fair compensation for them. And I just like that term, fair compensation. I've said it a few times because that's what it is. It's not like women are asking for you know way. I mean, I'm sure there are, but you know, just whatever your value is, whatever it's been determined, it's an easy mathematical equation and you know women can figure it out and women have to stand by and you know they'll be more successful at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:Yes, and still have their self-respect and not be just bitter.
Speaker 1:Exactly who wants to be a resentful person. That's what I was just like. I'm here all day at this conference. I am. You know, it's a gorgeous day out, I'm here all day. And then there was an event afterward that I felt obliged to go to and I thought never again. And I'd already prepped, you know, several hours. So you know, live and learn. Experience is our greatest teachers, and you know, we don't learn unless we fail through it and fall through it. And, you know, decide I'm doing it differently the next time.
Speaker 2:So what's your listenership like? And let's just talk numbers here for a sec.
Speaker 1:Oh, now you're asking the tough questions. You can ballpark it.
Speaker 2:So let's say you have 500 listeners, steady listeners, to your podcast, and what if 10% of those and let's say they're all women, and we're going to pick 50 women decide that they're not going to do this anymore? Some people want to do it in baby steps. That's fine, but let's say that this is really resonating with amazing women who have been doing this, have done it maybe once and just don't like to say the word no.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what? If 10%, 50 of those women say you know what, I'm not going to do this anymore? There are ways to do it, Like the guy who came up after the presentation and said, hey, we want you to come and do this for us. Gave him my card, Said call me. I said call me, We'll talk the numbers. And that's when he starts looking nervous and he starts looking around. Well, I, you know, well, we can't pay you. Well, think about it, work your budget and call me if you still want me to come and do this presentation. So there you know and my thing is practicing in advance of how to answer these questions, Cause if you're put on the spot sometimes you know there's a hard sell and I don't say yes to anything right away. You know, I need some time to give this some thought, to see if it will work with my, with my schedule. That's right, it aligns with my, my work life. So I mean, that's significant 50 women and that's just 10 percent.
Speaker 1:I was delighted that one woman changed her ways and said I'm always going to, I've been running events for a while and I've never paid women and but henceforth I'm going to be paying women. I was delighted with that, you know. Another way to do it is, you know, cause sometimes it's hard to determine the number. And so you know people, women, may want experience, you know speaking, and so maybe start out something lower than normal and then with each invitation, add 25% to your fees until you get to that saturation point that says you know people are saying it's too expensive. You know, and then you can kind of gauge that number because it is hard to determine. And you know different geographic areas, you know, have a different level of what they'll pay. You know oftentimes in the US they pay a lot more than in Canada, for example, now with the Canadian dollar, you know it's a heck of a lot more. But you know just in general, because there's, you know, a lot more people there, a lot more resources, but you know. So determine a number and then continue to add that 25% until you get pushback, and that's how you can set your market rate.
Speaker 1:I really want to give women some strategies that you know, to help them, to be able to get the confidence to say you know I'm valuable, I know my worth and this is the number and this is how I'm going to set that number. And you know, in a way you're letting your clients decide what your expertise is worth and it might be different for different people, like I have different fees for different companies. For certain industries I'll have a different fee For certain expectations I'll have a different fee, but two or three different fees generally at a time and it seems to work. So I have to say I feel like a bit of a chicken where I I am not available to do a particular talk that I wasn't going to be compensated for. I'm going to be out of town, as I said, so I didn't have to say I don't work for free. Again, I've already said it to the person they know.
Speaker 1:But you know, they think, because they know me, that you know that I that I should be doing this, or because it's, for, you know, a good cause, that I should be doing this, but I can't do it. But I, you know, I didn't say I can't do it. I, well, I don't want to do it because you're not going to pay me, but I happen to be away at the time, fortunately.
Speaker 2:So but you know.
Speaker 1:And then the other thing is like something better might come up and you know when you may have said yes to a no pay, you know no compensation, and then a compensation event or opportunity might come up and you don't have an opportunity to say yes to that. That's a very good point. Yeah, you just never know. But, kim, I really appreciate you coming on the program and talking about this. It's been great. Thank you so much. It's such an important subject. And how's Nashville, which is where you're joining us from?
Speaker 2:It's been snowing all day, snowing, wow, wow. I woke up in the morning for coffee and my favorite coffee place was closed, oh my gosh. So I walked around to Target for a little while and I had talked to someone about snow and it was like a big joke and they're like we don't have enough money for snow, so just don't expect too much. I mean, I just from Boston a few weeks ago, right. Then I heard that you know the big, what's the big weather event in Tennessee? Well, it's tornadoes. Well, if they can, if they are X amount of limited dollars, put them towards tornadoes. Let's do what we can with the snow keep people off the street, close the businesses. I totally get that. There's some give and take. And then I came home and I've been working from home all day with a nice warm apartment and some soup, and so it's still snowing out there.
Speaker 1:So I'm okay, that's amazing, I love, okay, I'm enjoying it. One bar to the next, the music and and I'm a huge music person and the music from one location to the next, it just got better and better. The people that I was traveling with, you know, I the first place we went into it was a cardi b kind of um type of musician and she was amazing, and and then I, and then my colleague said so, we're going, we. I said no, this is amazing, we have to stay. And then went to the next. The next place was better, just as awesome. I mean, it was fantastic Love Nashville.
Speaker 2:So I'm happy for you. Even out in the suburbs, you can go to Sunday brunch at your tiny hometown diner and there will be live music. There will be a tree.
Speaker 1:It's just amazing. Awesome, that's fantastic. Well, enjoy Nashville, enjoy the snow. I'm sure it won't last long. And, and I mean the horrific weather we're having, uh, it's been the horrible fires in California. Shout out to all of those people who've lost homes and, uh, people who've lost their lives and their pets, and I mean it's just so horrific. Uh, some of the weather that we're seeing as a result of high winds, and I mean you know my heart is just broken for those people in California, in those communities, and it's not all wealthy people and it doesn't matter. You know people lose their homes and their memories, and you know their photos and it's just and it's just unbelievable. So our thoughts and prayers for sure go out and if you can help in any way, there's lots of places online that are, you know, providing you with the opportunity to help somebody else.
Speaker 2:Sorry, kim, you were going to say no worries, I was going to say a shout out for our first responders as well, who are rallying and coming from all parts of the US and from Canada yes, thousand percent, and talk about not being compensated fairly.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know the work that they do, their lives are at stake and you know they're not a high paid group whatsoever. Anyway, thank you so much for that and thanks so much once again for joining the program, and no more, no more speaking for free.
Speaker 2:You're most welcome. Take care, and I'll be listening.
Speaker 1:That was Kim Dillian. She is an environmental health specialist in Nashville, tennessee, and I'm Maureen McGrath, and if you feel that you know somebody that may benefit from this episode, feel free to share the podcast. I'd also love it if you would download it, follow me or write a review. Thank you so much and Happy New Year everybody. Thanks so much for tuning in. I'm Maureen McGrath and you have been listening to the Sunday Night Health Show podcast. If you want to hear this podcast or any other segment again, feel free to go to iTunes, spotify or Google Play or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. You can always email me, nursetalk at hotmailcom or text the show 604-765-9287. That's 604-765-9287. Or head on over to my website for more information, maureenmcgrathcom. It's been my pleasure to spend this time with you.
Speaker 1:Ladies, let's talk about something we don't often talk about pelvic floor health. Whether it's postpartum changes, aging or just the demands of everyday life, many women struggle with bladder leaks and a lack of self-confidence. The demands of everyday life. Many women struggle with bladder leaks and a lack of self-confidence. But what if I told you there's an effortless solution? Meet the Emcella chair Just 30 minutes, fully dressed, and it will do thousands of Kegels for you, strengthen your pelvic floor, improve intimacy and feel confident again. So say no to incontinence and start to enjoy life again, leak free. Ask your doctor about the Emcella chair. For more information, go to wwwemcellacom. That's wwwemcellacom.