Nurse Maureen‘s Health Show
Welcome to Nurse Maureen's Health Show Podcast where we dive deep into all things health, sex, menopause, relationships, parenting, communication and more! Hosted by a passionate nurse with years of frontline experience, we bring you expert interviews, real-life stories, and the latest insights on staying healthy aging. Nothing is off limits as we delve into overall health, sexual health, mental health, and sexual health. Whether we’re breaking down medical myths, discussing cutting-edge treatments, or chatting with top health professionals, this show is your go-to for practical advice and inspiring conversations.
Nurse Maureen‘s Health Show
Everything But Money: How Emotions Shape Your Financial Reality
Honestly, I salute anyone who can do a new like no spend month or a year. I've never been able to, and that's just like. I think you know, certain things work for certain people and that's kind of you know, one of the things the many things I talk about my book is how personal finance is personal and that's why a lot of us struggle is because we're trying to maybe fit into someone else's box and we're like well, I tried this and it didn't work. It must be a me problem. It's like or that just doesn't work for you because that's just not how your brain works.
Speaker 2:Good evening and welcome to Nurse Maureen's Health Show Podcast, the podcast where we dive into the stories that shape our health relationships and how we move through the world. I'm Maureen McGrath, registered nurse, nurse, continence Advisor, nurse nurse continence advisor and sexual health and menopause educator. Tonight we're talking about something that touches every part of our lives, especially these days, and it's associated with a lot more uncertainty. Now we're talking about money, but not in the way you might expect. In my clinical practice, I deal with the sexual side of things for patients like low desire, erectile dysfunction and anorgasmia. But even I find that, when it comes to relationships, differences in financial values, spending habits, debt or financial stress can create major tension. Money often represents more than dollars. It can symbolize control, security, freedom or even self-worth.
Speaker 2:Tonight on the podcast, I'm joined by Jessica Morehouse, financial educator, speaker, bestselling author and host of the More Money podcast, to talk about her eye-opening new book Everything but Money. In a time of financial uncertainty, jessica takes us beyond the numbers to explore the emotional weight we carry around money, from shame and self-worth to how our financial stories shape our relationships. Good evening, jessica. How are you? I'm good. Thanks so much for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure and I absolutely loved your book and I recommend everybody read it because I feel like we're all living with this secret shame around money.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know if it's so secret.
Speaker 1:I mean, sometimes you just have to ask someone one or two questions.
Speaker 1:You're like, oh yeah, this is a prominent feeling that a lot of us I'd say the majority of us feel, and a lot of it has to do with, I mean, so many things.
Speaker 1:But often it really stems from, you know, our childhoods and our upbringing and we carry this shame. That's probably not even ours, it's usually our parents or caregivers. We carried it with us until we're adults and then we, you know, are struggling with, you know, our finances and all you know, not even just necessarily like the management of our finances, but just how we feel with our money and how you know if we think we're good enough or smart enough to learn how to manage it better. And that's definitely what I want to write this book for is to help anyone who feels like, oh, I can't, possibly, or I'm just not good at money, I'm not good at budgeting, I'm not good at this, this just isn't for me. I've read some personal finance books or I've tried doing the things I learn online and they're just not working for me. And I want to present some reasons why that might be kind of some internal reasons and some solutions, so you can kind of break free.
Speaker 2:It's interesting that you say that. I will say I'm not good at budgeting, I'm not good at writing down. I know everybody recommends write down every single dollar that you spend. I just can't do that. It doesn't work for me. What inspired you and this is a deeply personal book what actually inspired you to write Everything but Money, and why now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's actually funny that it came out this year, just because I'm like wow, I feel like a lot of the topics are very timely for what we're going on.
Speaker 1:There's a lot more financial anxiety. A lot more people have money on the mind right now with what's going on in the world. And for me, I, you know, I've been a financial educator, content creator, for 13 plus years and I've talked to so many people, so many different ages, backgrounds, life experiences, and I really want to you know, overall, like after all of these years of talking with people and you know they come to me because they're struggling financially or they have a question and they don't know what the solution is, and often they think that it's, you know, it's in the numbers, it's a dollars and cents issue, it's a money issue, but then when we really dig deep, it's about everything but money. It's deeper than money. It's something else that's going on that's preventing them from doing some of the things that are really pretty simple.
Speaker 1:I was actually just talking to someone the other day about how a lot of people either are looking for that really easy, quick solution that unfortunately, they don't really exist, and that's why there's still so many people that are, you know, pumping out these get rich quick schemes that ultimately never work, or they come to the point where they have learned all the things that you need to know to manage your money properly. And then they're like well, what's next? It can't possibly be that simple. There's something else right and yeah. Sometimes, no, the answer is like.
Speaker 1:No, that's it Like you know I always kind of give the example of like. When it comes to fitness, we all actually do know the fundamentals of being healthy and fit with our bodies. We got to move and we got to eat healthy, and we sometimes need to track if things aren't lining up. We need to know where the problem areas is. So we need that data and we need to be consistent with it, and that's kind of it. And some people are like no, there's got to be more.
Speaker 1:I must have to, you know, optimize this way, or get up at four in the morning or whatever, and it's like it doesn't actually have to be that complicated. And so money is the exact same way If you want to reach your goals and feel more secure and more satisfied with your money. It's actually pretty simple the actual practical things you need to do. However, when I say that, then why are so many people still struggling? If it's that simple? And that's because there's a lot of other things underneath the hood going on that is preventing you from getting out of your own way, and so I want to write a book for everyone I've ever talked to that has felt that way, but also I want to do my own kind of personal journey to find out what's going on with me, because most people would not, I think, build a career like I have, and I never expected to have the career I do as a financial educator. But I was an arts kid, I thought I was going to work in film and TV and I love stories and stuff like that and then somehow took a left turn and now do what I do and I'm obsessed with it.
Speaker 1:I am so passionate about financial education and, you know, learning about money. Why is that? And so I had to do some introspection to find out. Do I actually have an unhealthy relationship with money? And yeah, I did. I've done a lot of self work and a lot of therapy throughout the couple of years that it took me to get the book done. And yeah, I'm not perfect either.
Speaker 1:And so I really want to write a book that shows not only am I being vulnerable and honest with you, so hopefully I can encourage you to do the same, but we all have our stuff and we can't move forward or reach some of those goals that we just they're just so close to being in our grasp but we can't figure out. Why are we not able to make that you know extra mile. Why can't we get there? There's something in the way, and we just all need to figure out what is that thing, and it's different for everybody, and so I present a whole bunch of possibilities.
Speaker 1:This could be you, this could be you, this could be you and it could be a combination. You can have all of these things, and that is why it's so difficult for you to keep a job or put money in savings or start investing or pay down debt or stop getting into the cycle of debt. There's all these reasons, and once you know that, it's a lot easier to then develop some sort of path or strategy to do something different with your money, so you can stop living how you're living if you're not really happy with it, and live differently.
Speaker 2:And what are some of those reasons that you referred to as to why people can't get control of their money?
Speaker 1:So we kind of start in the book going back to your kind of first money memory, so really finding out what is your origin story with your money. How was that first experience? And so I give a personal story of myself when I was four years old and how I stole a gumball at the grocery store, was shamed for it by my mom rightly so, because stealing is bad. But I carried that sense of shame for doing something shameful and then also shaming my family for, oh, this kid I can't believe what a bad kid that she stole something. I carried that shame with me until I started writing my book. I had no idea I was carrying that. So that was a big thing. I didn didn't realize I was carrying this big sense of shame with money for my whole life and that prevented me from doing a lot of things. Because I was I. You know I shame, can you know, manifest in so many different areas, including I didn't think I was, yeah, good enough, smart enough. You know I should just stick in my stay in my lane, things like that.
Speaker 1:And so starting with figuring out how does money make you feel today and where did that start, can give you a good aha moment and then really taking a look also at some of the feelings, the values, the beliefs about money that, again, you may have right now. Where did those come from, and are those good or bad? Do we need to let go of some of them? So for me, I have, you know, from my parents and even my grandparents sometimes I can really go down that family line this idea that I'll never have any kind of wealth, even though I'm working so hard to, you know, invest and save and be good with my money, because no one in my family has ever had wealth. They've always just had just enough. And so that's, you know, learning that and seeing that, you think that that's your only path. You can only just have just enough, nothing more, because there's never been an example of wealth. So why would you even think that you can achieve that?
Speaker 1:So that was a mindset I had to let go of, because I'm like that's really unhealthy to think that I'm preventing myself from striving towards this really big goal of maybe, like early retirement or just you know, being more comfortable than past generations, because that was a lesson I learned growing up.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. I think I might need a psychologist for my money history.
Speaker 1:Hey, I saw several therapists while writing my book to kind of do some digging. So highly recommend All right, so great.
Speaker 2:But you might be able to help me because you've been and I haven't been yet. But when you said what's your earliest money memory, two things came to mind. And one was I remember, and I have no idea what age it was, but my father said if you ever have the desire to steal something, come home and I'll buy it for you. And I never did, I know cause. I knew I could never come home and say I felt like stealing candy at the drugstore because that was associated with shame. But that was also like I didn't really have control over money. I don't know, I'm not a psychologist, I just play one on this podcast.
Speaker 2:But, um, and the other money memory was my. I went to my best friend's house with my mother and, uh, and she was friends with her mother and we were going to go to the store and my friend, my best friend, came out with this like little pouch of all these different coins, all this money that she had earned and my mother gave me a dollar and the.
Speaker 2:It was just such a stark difference. The money was given to me and she had earned hers and I had never really understood that a kid could earn money and I I just remember thinking like that is so cool. I had just so many mixed emotions about that. Gee, I'd really like to earn my own money, that kind of a thing. So I know we can't get into, dive into my psyche, but it's interesting to.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's an exercise in the book that you might want to go through to really, yeah, dig deep into like let's get some more details about that and how does that connect? Now, because you may be able to make some of those connections to be like oh, that's why I do this or I behave like this or I feel like this. It probably stems from some of those memories especially those memories popped up real quick for you. You're like those were there the whole time they were waiting to be discovered.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. And then something else I'm just curious about gender differences, because I find a lot of women because I put on events and I hire people and I, you know, I do contract. You know I hire contractors to help me out with certain projects and that kind of thing and oftentimes they're women, because it's a lot of women's work that I do and you know, women undervalue themselves or they'll say, oh, maureen, I'll just work for free because I really like you and I say no, you can't work for free.
Speaker 2:Or you know, they'll say say oh, I worked 10 hours but I'm just going to charge you five. I'm like, why? Why are you diluting your hourly wage? You know, don't be ridiculous. Uh, do men and women deal with? Because I'll often ask men as well, women don't negotiate. There are so many things men have no problem negotiating. You know, I learned from a man that there's always 10 in there, you know, and so it's hard for women to negotiate. Is it harder for women to talk about money and deal with money?
Speaker 1:I'd say so because I mean, when we look at history, we were not part of the financial conversation until, honestly, the past couple of decades, right, when I look at my grandma and she really she was the one who was running that household and making sure everything was okay and there was four kids in that family. I'm talking about my maternal grandma she wasn't able to have a credit card when she was, you know, a mom and she had to give up work. She was a teacher and back in that time she had to quit that job once she got married. And there are so, so there are so many elements where she had, you know, could have had a little bit of financial independence, but because she chose to get married and have a family, she had to give all of that up and she never really had any financial independence at all. And so that is what my mom saw and you know, of course, my mom always worked and that was, she had a lot of pride in that and she was kind of of our money manager for our family and was a really great representation of oh yes, you can be part of those money conversations, but even still, that was so recent, right, that's only one generation from me.
Speaker 1:A lot of the stereotypes that are unfortunately still around about how women, you know, oh, we shop too much. We are, you know, risk intolerant. We, you know, never negotiate. We're bad with money, all these stereotypes where, when you actually look at the data, we're really good with money. It's just the society, the systems that were in place, prevented us from ever being, you know, part of the conversation, you know having a seat at the table, and so some of us, you know, internalize some of those things and we just take ourselves out and we so we kind of, you know, maybe believe some of these stereotypes when they're completely untrue, and so I think, yeah, part of it is just like we were never allowed to have any financial independence. So to make these leaps and bounds in only a couple of generations, I mean, we've done amazing work when you think about it, right, Like my grandma wasn't able to get credit.
Speaker 1:She wasn't able to get a credit card, Like how wild is that? And so I think we're actually doing pretty good, but it's so important for us, especially as women, to have more of conversations so we can do better for the next generation, next generation to keep moving the dial. Because, yeah, that was something I had to really unlearn and relearn was how to negotiate, how to speak up for myself, how to do this, because that was I never learned any of that stuff, Whereas, you know, maybe if I were a man, maybe I would be part of those conversations as a kid. You know the dads, you know, maybe if I were a man, maybe I would be part of those conversations as a kid. You know the dads, you know talking with their boys about how to do this and that I don't know. But yeah, it's definitely common, it's very common.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think it's. You know, we might be good at it but maybe we're not good at it all the time. You know everything waxes and wanes in life, you know, and sometimes you're better with your finances than than at other times. Something my accountant father did teach me was put and I was an obedient child, keep that in mind but he'd say, put 14% of your paycheck away, which I did, and that was highly beneficial. But you know what. It wasn't enough. You know it was not enough of the control. You know what I mean To have that agency over my money and, more importantly, my husband's money Just kidding Cause his was mine. He has no interest and I really don't even talk to him about money, but I'll talk to my sisters about my little like my little TikTok, you know no spend year that we talked about before the show. Another thing that I'm doing is I say this is my year of multiple income streams.
Speaker 1:Why not?
Speaker 2:You know and so I do these little intentional things. But you know, maybe I had a slightly better foundation around money growing up in terms of, but you know, my mother was entirely opposite of my father in terms of just spend, spend, spend.
Speaker 2:You only live once. But she grew up with money and so that was a different. That was probably a different story as well, where my father's family struggled much more so, but you know they still. You know my grandmother managed to make a very good life for all of them. You know you, people struggle we talked about with shame around money, either not having enough, not knowing what to do with it. What helped you break free from that shame and what do you recommend for people listening who might have that shame or not even realize that they have that shame around money? And I can see where it's people it's. It's tied to how they feel about themselves. They compare themselves with how much money somebody has. There's always going to be somebody with more and somebody with less, and it's not about that, is it?
Speaker 1:No, yeah, there's a big portion of one chapter in my book that really talks about shame, because that is one of the most common feelings I discovered when I was doing a lot of interviews and just like talking to people over the years that they had associated with money, and so there's so many different forms of shame, and I think it's really important for me to also properly describe what is shame, because some people confuse it with guilt, and they're very different things. Shame is the feeling that there's something fundamentally wrong with you, and so if you have shame with money, you're going to think that there's something fundamentally wrong with you, and so you, if you have shame with money, you're going to think that there's something fundamentally wrong with you and your money. You're just like we kind of talked about I'm not good with money, I'm bad with money. If you have these ideas that this is part of your identity, how that's very difficult for you to then, ok, well, if I just you know, do this, this and this, start a budget and put you know 14% away into savings, everything will be good. No, because you think that fundamentally, there's something wrong with you, and so we need to really identify what is this sense of shame. What is it? Was it really? Because there's so many different forms it could be shame from growing up with less if you were kind of low income, or even shame of growing up with more and feeling kind of bad for maybe how much you had compared to your neighbors. So there's so many different forms and really identifying where did that shame come from and how is it preventing you from living what I call a financially fulfilled life, so just living your most fulfilled life and how money can kind of help you get there, and until you really do that work, you're just going to be doing the same cycle forever and ever.
Speaker 1:And so for me, that was a big wake up call for me, because I didn't realize that my shame was preventing me from ever feeling satisfied with my money. No matter what I achieved, what milestone I achieved with my money, I still never felt good enough. I always thought, well, but there's so and so out there who has more or did this and you didn't do this. So I was always comparing myself to someone else, and so I would always have to push that goalpost a little bit further, and so I would never be satisfied, no matter how good I was being with my money. It was never good enough and so I'm like well, that's not a good place to live and I don't want to feel like that forever.
Speaker 1:And so I had to do a lot of self-work to make sure that shame when it reared its ugly head and it still does, because it's just part of my DNA. I have to really be mindful of that and be like no, I'm not letting it dictate my financial decisions or how I feel about myself and my future and my potential. I'm not doing that anymore because I know how I felt when I did. Let it kind of run the show and it wasn't healthy, and so it's a practice, like pretty much everything in my book is. You know, here are the issues, here are some solutions, but it's a practice. You're going to have to continue to practice. It's not a cure, unfortunately.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And then you said shame is very different from guilt. And I just want to tell maybe this is a shame story, but I went to visit my parents in Florida and now I came from Canada and so I hadn't exchanged my money and I had no cash when I got down there and I remember my father saying you know, your sister would have had this all tied up, you know she'd have had the cash, like I. I felt terrible and I never, ever, ever have done that. Since you know, it's just a one liner, people have to say to me and I'm like shocked into changing my behavior I will always have cash Not going to the US, these days too much but you know, I will always have cash with me when, when I go now, just because of that one thing.
Speaker 2:But you're right, I felt, you know, shamed by that. And but what is guilt as opposed to shame?
Speaker 1:So guilt is a lot easier of a feeling to kind of rectify. It is the feeling that you did something wrong, and so it's more of a behavior.
Speaker 1:It's like you know, if I mean, really what you're kind of describing is more, maybe you were kind of guilted into not doing that action again, or the inaction such as right, yeah, you know you should have, you know, converted some of your currency and brought some of that with you, and so you're like, oh yeah, you're right, I feel kind of bad about that, I'm not going to do that again. And then you change your behavior and you're better for it. But the shame like you know, the tone definitely was a bit shameful in that, and so it's really important to really, you know, make sure we understand that there's guilt and there's shame.
Speaker 1:And when shame is involved. We need to really take a look at that and really even tell ourselves yeah, I understand that and hey, I was able to learn a really helpful lesson, but I need to let go of that shame part because I know I'm not a bad person or I'm fundamentally flawed. That's not gonna help me moving forward.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, and I think it is. Probably it was much more of a guilty you know, guilty narrative than the shame thing, but it did change my behavior and even still today, revolutionizing erections, tracking performance, boosting stamina and supporting your sexual health with real science. Ready to level up in the bedroom? Head on over to MyFirmTechcom and use the code NURSEMOREEN15 for 15% off of any FirmTech order FirmTech hard science for harder health, because performance matters you talk about so much in your book and I really recommend, if you're listening to the podcast, to order the book Everything but Money by Jessica Morehouse, my guest, because it is amazing, you know, sometimes people don't know what to do with their money. And then there's these millionaires, dare I say, which you know won't really get you far today either, being a millionaire, but I, I, I sort of deem them. You know, I have, I have millionaire friends who couch surf. I have millionaire friends who will never, never have their wallet with them. I have millionaire friends, people who have plenty of money and yet they still can't spend. What are those issues?
Speaker 1:Oh man, I mean, we could really have a whole other discussion about that. I mean, that's the thing. I think a lot of people and this is something I talk about in the book a lot of people think that if I had more money then all my problems would go away. Like the money is the solution. And it can be when we're talking about an actual financial problem. So if you, if your income is not enough to meet your basic needs, more money is the solution to that problem, it will solve that problem.
Speaker 1:But if you know, I work with a number of clients, one on one, who it's not an income issue. We take a look at their spending and their income and we see, oh well, the problem is the spending. That's very easy to fix because we can run the numbers. We're like, well, we need to cut this, cut this and reorganize this and put this into savings. And now we've got a balanced budget. But the problem I was seeing recurring was they would come back a month or two later and they wouldn't make any progress. They weren't sticking to that budget. Why is that? Or I have some clients who, you know, make a decent income, but they are just so terrified to spend their money.
Speaker 1:They are always worried that, oh, but I don't want to spend this, because what if something happens? And you're like where does this fear come from? That's also not healthy, too, being like a hoarder of your money. You need to spend your money, that's what it's for. You can't, you know, like the cliches, like you can't take it with you.
Speaker 1:So you want to have money in savings for the future, but you shouldn't be paralyzed with fear that if you buy a latte, you're going need to have balance, and so it's really important to figure out, speaking of like, what's that kind of anchor that will make you feel good and secure with your money, and also figuring out what do you actually want in life and how can money help you get there. And then what is in your way? What are those feelings? It could be shame, it could be fear, it could be anxiety. There's all these things that are likely in your way preventing you from just feeling good about your money. And that's really the whole point of the book is I want you to feel good about your money, because it should make you feel good.
Speaker 2:Something that makes me very uncomfortable and and I also think people think I'm an easy mark because I, I will foot the bill. You know I will. But I get nervous if people aren't pulling out their credit cards quickly enough when the bill comes, and and or that you know they've whatever, maybe gone somewhere and and then it's time for the bill and they don't move, and then you feel like you have to pay and then they're like oh, thank you, oh really, oh no, that's when you have to speak up to be like, and then they're like oh, thank you, oh really, oh no, that's when you have to speak up to be like so we're all splitting the bill, right, or we're all just paying for our meals individually, right?
Speaker 1:Like sometimes you have to be that person because again, yeah, you could be. I think I kind of give an example in my book, a story of a woman who she because her kind of some past, uh trauma in a past relationship where there was some financial abuse going on she, when there was a a group dinner with a bunch of friends, she had friends who's like, hey, let's get this expensive wine. And in her mind she's like I really can't afford to do that. Now I'm worried, I'm going to go into debt because I'm terrified to say that I can't afford that or I don't want to pay for your wine. I don't even want wine, and that's a real thing.
Speaker 1:A lot of people would rather take on that financial burden of putting on their credit card and then getting into credit card debt because they're too afraid to voice their needs and their concerns, or that I don't want to pay for you and I shouldn't have to pay for you. You should pay for yourself, because now you're taking advantage of me and I'm the one that has to deal with the repercussions of this. But that's so difficult because you have to be vulnerable to speak your truth and to say, yeah, I don't want to pay for your meal.
Speaker 2:You should pay for your own meal. That's why we're all here.
Speaker 1:But that's really difficult to do. But again, that comes down to a practice of speaking up for yourself and protecting your money, and I always tell people that if you need a kind of new frame of mind for money management why it's important, think of it as this is the ultimate form of self-care. It's not just a facial mask and a bath. If you really want to perform self-care, making sure that your money is right and you're taking care of your finances is the best way to do it, because you're taking care of present to you, but also future. You Like. I like to always think of Jessica in her, you know, 60s, 70s, in retirement, and Jessica right now I'm taking care of her, because who else is going to take care of her? It's going to be much more difficult for me to make money when I'm at that age and maybe can't work or you know, who knows what's going to happen. So we need to really, you know, protect ourselves right now in our future, and sometimes that really gets people like, oh, I never thought about it like that.
Speaker 2:That's right. And you hear people saying you know, I'm on a fixed income, so that. So that means what that means you're not going to pay.
Speaker 1:You're like, okay, how's that my problem? Like we shouldn't have to also take on other people's financial burdens and problems, right? I know sometimes you feel like, oh, I feel bad, or I know I earn more than that person, so I should, you know, take care of them.
Speaker 1:Well, you need to take it, You've got to put that you know, I know it's a cliche again, but put that mask on yourself and on the plane before you can do that to someone else. Because again, who's going to take care of you if you're always taking care of someone else and then you know, by the time it comes down to you there's nothing left.
Speaker 2:And I have to say I am guilty of that. You know I was also raised like pay your own way but be generous, like a million messages around money. But you know I've been at the supermarket where somebody didn't have their credit card a friend and you know I paid for their groceries and then they never paid me back. Yeah, you know, they just, but it's, it's, that's on me, because I didn't say hey, you owe me $56 for the, for the groceries that I just bought for your, you know, living in your two and a half million dollar house there.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, if that's the case, they should pay you back.
Speaker 2:Of course I think regardless even if they're not. I mean, you know, I think people should pay their way, but we're so uncomfortable around money.
Speaker 1:Oh, we're so uncomfortable talking about money or especially asking for money. No one wants to ask for money, right?
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, feeling because you feel like you're doing something wrong. But most of us we're asking for money because, well, I footed the bill and you said that you were going to pay me back and then you just haven't, and so again it's like you've got to protect yourself. Or if it's a one-time thing like, for example, me and my family we in general don't have, we don't borrow money from each other If we're going to give money to somebody, it's a gift and that is kind of the understanding, because then it's like a one-time special, you know it's a gift, and then there's kind of no awkwardness, um, but there's still this understanding of this is what it is. And also it's not a recurring thing, because I think there's been other family members you know, probably my parents who've had other financial situations where they lent money and never got paid back, and so they're like, no, we don't do that anymore.
Speaker 1:If we're going to give money, we're not having any expectations, but we have this understanding of that. So really setting those boundaries, I think, is what we're kind of getting at is you need to have those boundaries and you need to speak up for yourself. And if you do find a friend is constantly forgetting their wallet or expecting you to pay. You got to rethink your relationship with that friend and money and setting some boundaries. And sometimes it's awkward, especially if you've let it go on for a while a couple of months, a couple of years and so now they just expect you to and you're like I don't like this and so you need to change it and it's going to be awkward, but you're going to be glad you did it.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, and you know I can be guilty of all those things and but you know, I feel like with the bit of agency or power that I've taken back as a result of that little TikTok video that I saw one summer night, you know, I feel like I'm better able to do those things with less, if you will. Resentment, you know, because we do. We can get resentful when you know it's the same person who's you know, forgetting their wallet all the time at the spa and those expensive services.
Speaker 1:No kidding, I feel like, yeah, again, it's like you could afford to pay me back. And sometimes it is about like, okay, just send them a text after, right after, so they don't forget. And then, if again you're like handing them for money, you're like, okay, well, I know this now and this is. Then. You know, next time we go to the spa and they forget their wallet, I'll be like, wow, that really sucks for you. Did you want to reschedule?
Speaker 1:Exactly, and we're not doing this because I know what happened. Now you're taking advantage of me for again their own money issues. You know who knows why people do the things that they do and it's. But again it's like that's not your problem. You're not their therapist.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Speaking of therapists. However, you mentioned that therapy played a role in your journey and how important is emotional or mental health in financial wellness.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's so important Because, again, most people think money is just about dollars and cents and just balancing the budget. But no, it's super emotional. That's why we make most of our decisions with money is when emotions come into play. I mean, I've been having so many conversations the past couple months of telling people please do not let your emotions dictate your financial decision making. Right now, especially with what's going on in the stock market, A lot of people are panicking and like I'm going to sell everything because I'm just afraid of what's happening and I'm like please don't do that Because that's an emotional reaction.
Speaker 1:What you should be doing with your money, especially when it comes to like you're investing and you know, say, you're saving for retirement is to not touch those things Because there's so much I mean we could look back five years of COVID and so many people did that. They freaked out. The stock market was going down, there's this new pandemic, everything shutting down. People were so emotional and, instead of just not touching their money, they did everything wrong with their money. So they sold their investments and then it stayed in cash and then, when the stock market rebounded which it did really quickly it was more expensive for them to buy back their investments that they just sold, and so they were in a worse financial position. Or we saw a lot about in 2020 and then onward. So many people were stuck at home, and what did they do? Because they were bored or emotional or anxious, they shopped online and spent a ton of money on stuff that they didn't need that they probably later regretted, Right.
Speaker 2:That is so true.
Speaker 1:So we really need to, every time we make a financial decision, small or big, really take a check on yourself, on how do I feel right now? Like, what am I feeling? Am I feeling good? Am I feeling kind of anxious? Am I kind of fearful? What's going on with me? And then really take a look at, kind of like what you were doing is do I need this? Is this actually something I need, or do I just? Am I just looking for that dopamine hit Because I'm just not doing really well and I just need something?
Speaker 1:I need something right now, and if that's the case, then we need to step away, because the best thing you can do when it comes to any kind of financial decision making is to basically be an emotionalist robot.
Speaker 1:Because, when it comes to our human behavior and our emotions, we've got these biases and these instincts that are telling us to do one thing, because they were built, developed in us thousands and thousands of years ago to help us survive.
Speaker 1:But these biases never factored in modern finance, and so most of your instincts, we actually need to ignore them, because if we panic, sell our investments, because we feel like, oh, we need to run away from this threat, we're going to regret it later, and so what I always tell people is if you're feeling emotional, do nothing, or maybe do the opposite of what you think you should do. If you think you need to buy something, let's not buy something. Or if you feel like you need to sell your investments, maybe we should continue investing, because now the stock market is on sale, so this is actually a really great opportunity. This is how a lot of people build wealth is during those downs in the market, they keep on buying and then, when it goes back up, they're wealthier. So do nothing or do the opposite is what I would recommend. If you're feeling emotional.
Speaker 2:Listen, I really appreciate that advice because you know a lot of people that I know have, you know, turned over into a cash position in the stock market, sold everything and it's like I didn't really know what to do there. Whether to you know, stay the course. And I just thought you know what. Ignore it, don't even look at it. Everyone's telling me how much they lost. I'm like, forget it. It's a paper loss number one. Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1:Don't look at it.
Speaker 2:No, I'm not looking at it, I'm in complete denial, which is not a very healthy, mentally healthy way. But whatever Denial and I'm not going to do anything about that, and I think these are certainly uncertain times but, as you say, it can be a very good way to build wealth when the stock market goes down, as we saw in the 2008 crash and then also during the pandemic as well.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the thing. This is cyclical. This isn't the first time this has happened. Yeah, the environment, the circumstances are a bit different, but it's still similar to 2020, 2008, you know, 2000, 2001. There's always been some sort of economic or stock market crisis and, time and time again, the people who build wealth are the people who double down and keep on investing or just continue with their investment plan. If they have these regular contributions once a month, they put this amount into their investments. Those are the people that did okay. The ones who you hear in the news are like I lost my retirement savings that's because they sold when everything was crashing and they never got back in If they just held on to this roller coaster, which is what it feels like they would, you know.
Speaker 1:again, I always tell people look at the, you know, s&p 500 or S&P TSX composite index, these indexes that represent the US stock market, the Canadian stock market. Every time it goes down, it eventually goes back up to a higher peak. So if you were just to stay in the market and literally not even touch your investments, if you stayed the course, you would be in a better position once it recovered and it always recovers. But you have to be very patient. Sometimes it takes years to recover, as we say, you know, with the Great Recession that hit people hard, I mean.
Speaker 1:I graduated university in 2009. I'm like this is a terrible time to start finding a job, but things rebounded and things were even better once they recovered, and so you just need to stay the course, and I always tell people, sometimes just looking at history and what you should and shouldn't do so you don't repeat the mistakes of the past. That's kind of one thing that might give you a little calmness.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and instead of freaking out everybody, read Jessica Morehouse's book Everything but Money and also listen to her amazing podcast, the More Money Podcast. Jessica, it's just been awesome. I have a couple more questions for you. What advice would you give to someone who feels like they're checking all the boxes? They have a good job, they have a savings account, they have some investments, but they still feel unfulfilled?
Speaker 1:Well, I think at that point, if you feel, when I feel like I could very much relate to that if you feel like you're ticking all the boxes but you're still not happy, we need to figure out, well, what does make you happy. Money is not going to make you happy. I'll tell you that right now, money can help you purchase things that may make you happy, such as some material things can make us happy temporarily, but experiences are ultimately the things that bring us the most joy and long-term joy. There's a whole chapter in my book about money and happiness that I loved writing because it was like a really nice, it was a happy thing to write about.
Speaker 1:And the things that actually bring us long-term joy actually often don't involve money or very little money. They're things that are like community, hanging out with people and being social. That makes us the most happy and most of the time you know what is that like a cup of coffee or you can have a friend over for free. You know like it really doesn't cost that much money just to be social and that brings us so much joy. Or just finding what are some of your hobbies? Do you have any? If not, guess what you're going to find you discover I really like puzzling or reading or being part of a book club. That is going to make you really happy. So I think when you feel like you've ticked all the boxes with your money, you're still not happy. You need to go back to the drawing board to figure out what actually does make me happy and how can I integrate that more into my life.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And even achieving goals, you know, can you know? Setting and achieving personal professional goals can create a sense of accomplishment and joy, and that can boost your confidence and motivation as well. I have to say I'm right into my little financial plan, which was why this is so timely for me to talk to you, and also in these uncertain times in which we're living. But, jessica, if listeners take away one core message from your book, what would you want it to be?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah. Well, I kind of end the book on this, because it's something that I've been telling people for years and remind myself often about is that, at the end of the day, you need to remind yourself that you are more than your money. I think too often we think our whole self-worth, our whole identity, has to do with how much money we have, how much money we earn, how much stuff we have, how nice our house is. Those things will only bring you happiness for a very limited amount of time, and we are more than that. You are a full human and your value has honestly nothing to do with how much money you have.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of people with a lot of money that are crappy people. There's a lot of amazing people out there that don't have that much money, and so we need to really rethink how do we value ourselves and how can we, you know, position ourselves and you know our goals and just our life and what we're working towards beyond just money, and remember that money is just a tool. It's just a, you know, a really important tool to help us meet our needs and some of our dreams and our wants, but it should never be more than that. It should never be the ultimate goal or the thing that's going to solve everything, because if you get there you'll realize it's not going to help, it, not going to get you to that, that point of actual fulfillment and satisfaction that's such great advice, because I do hear a lot of people say if I just had more money, everything would be fine in my life and you know I would be happy.
Speaker 1:Then it's like no, you know, I guarantee you there's a lot of miserable lottery winners, you know, and sometimes we think that's, that's what's going to solve it. It's like a lot of people I know get that raise or there's a windfall and they're still miserable. So money isn't the thing that's maybe going to help. I mean, maybe it can help you buy the things such as again, therapy. That can help you do some introspection, but yeah, money itself. It likely will not solve all your problems, I'll guarantee it.
Speaker 2:Therapy is the gift you give to yourself. Jessica, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time this evening and, yeah, it was awesome information.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for having me. It was a delight talking to you.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're so welcome. My guest was Jessica Morehouse financial educator, speaker, bestselling author, host of the More Money podcast, and I highly recommend you read her book I did called Everything but Money. It is awesome and life changing. And I'm Maureen McGrath, registered nurse, nurse, continence advisor, sexual health educator, menopause educator, and you know what. Sometimes I am a money educator with patients who are in relationships and I realized this is a money problem, this is not a sex problem, and I've been known to do spreadsheets, but it should not be me giving advice to people. I'm trying to figure it out myself. So, once again, I recommend you read Jessica Morehouse's book Everything but Money and if you feel that you know somebody who might benefit from tuning into this episode, feel free to share. You can also text me at 604-765-9287, or you can email me nursetalk at hotmailcom.
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