15. HANNAH BROWN: From Dating TV Shows to Writing Romance Novels

Hannah Brown is a reality TV queen following her appearances on "The Bachelor", "The Bachelorette", "Dancing With The Stars", and "Special Forces: World's Toughest Test". Hannah is following up the success of her memoir, "God Bless This Mess" with her fiction debut, "Mistakes We Never Made". This road trip with friends to enemies to lovers is the perfect read for summer.

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Transcript

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00;00;00;06 - 00;00;07;08
Speaker 1
It's just been all a lot of the reason I've fallen for some of the guys in my life. Maybe not always the good ones, but it's always interesting ones.

00;00;13;16 - 00;00;35;11
Speaker 2
Hello and welcome to the Literary Hype podcast. I am Stephanie, your literary hype woman. And I'm pretty hyped because this is a pretty big author conversation. This was a pretty big deal. Tina Brown was on The Bachelor. She was The Bachelorette. She won dancing with the Stars. She won Special Forces World's Toughest Test. She's a New York Times bestselling author and she's a podcaster.

00;00;35;11 - 00;00;51;04
Speaker 2
She's got it all going on. Her first book, God Bless This Mess, was a memoir. And now she's dipping her toe into fiction with mistakes we never made. This is a romance novel that is perfect for the summer. So check out our conversation. So excited to have you on literary hype.

00;00;51;07 - 00;00;52;17
Speaker 1
I'm glad to be here.

00;00;52;29 - 00;01;01;06
Speaker 2
Because in talking about this, it's like December of like, could we make this happen? So this is I'm in broke out the eyeliner. I don't even wear eyeliner most time I broke out.

00;01;01;22 - 00;01;25;01
Speaker 1
You broke out the eyeliner for me. I love it. I can't really wear eyeliner either. After my eyes, like I could wear like a brown woman, like a little. But I don't know. That's something to my eyes. I don't always like it. A makeup artist can always do that for me. I'm not wearing it, but I appreciate you taking the extra steps to do that because it's a whole thing.

00;01;25;09 - 00;01;27;02
Speaker 2
Girls dress for each other. We don't dress for them.

00;01;27;10 - 00;01;28;26
Speaker 1
Exactly. Exactly.

00;01;29;24 - 00;01;49;10
Speaker 2
Well, we're so excited to get to talk about your fiction debut. Yeah, we never made it. But before we get into the book, there's some stuff going on on social media that I got to address. OK, so Peter, your ex from The Bachelor has said he wants to see you on The Traitors. I think he would be fantastic.

00;01;49;23 - 00;01;52;01
Speaker 2
What what's your take on being on the race?

00;01;52;07 - 00;02;19;06
Speaker 1
I was just talking about this. I have I've only watched one episode of The Traitors the first season. And look, I'm I'm always open to, like, once in a lifetime experiences to do things but I do not think I'd be good at that show. That is woman show. I didn't think I'd be good at Special Forces by any means, but this is what I do not know if I would be good because, look, they would make me a traitor because.

00;02;19;13 - 00;02;40;29
Speaker 1
And I'm a horrible liar. I'm the worst liar there ever was. You can tell immediate li if that happened, I am out. And so and then I was talking to somebody else. Like when people have one other type of competition shows, which I always feel like I've been the underdog in my somehow won. Like, I won't say I've always been like this shining star.

00;02;42;19 - 00;03;03;14
Speaker 1
People vote you out and I'm like, well, then they're just going to vote me out because they're going to, I don't know. But I would say I would do it maybe if it aligned with like timing. And that's my biggest thing. And just like the things align with where I am as a person, like, is it going to open doors for me in some way or is it just going to be like a really cool experience that I can learn something about myself?

00;03;03;23 - 00;03;10;20
Speaker 1
I'm totally interested in if it could do that, like maybe, but I don't think I'd be good at it.

00;03;11;24 - 00;03;13;09
Speaker 2
I don't think I'd be good at it either.

00;03;13;09 - 00;03;20;02
Speaker 1
So it's like I'm going to I'll probably be on for like half a half a day of all lives that long. Like she's out.

00;03;20;26 - 00;03;28;13
Speaker 2
And still with your book that is coming out, mistakes you never made for anybody who hasn't seen this already. Tell us a little bit about what it's about.

00;03;28;18 - 00;04;07;09
Speaker 1
Yeah, I'm so excited. My first book, Infection Mistakes You Never Made, is coming out my seventh and this book as follows Emma Townsend. And she is kind of like that Type A Girl. So like, she has to be in charge of things, get things done. And her best friend is getting married. Sybil, unfortunately, kind of her arch nemesis that she's always she's had like a will they want they relationship in the past is also friends with Sybil is going to be there this weekend and Emma thinks she can have it under control as much as possible.

00;04;08;00 - 00;04;45;24
Speaker 1
And with that whole situation and tell her best friend the bride goes missing and her she of course feels like she has to be the one to save the day save Sybil for making this horrible mistake. But she but then literally has the keys to be able to help her do this. And so they have they go on this epic road trip together and we watch to see if, you know, the sparks fly and if, you know, she comes back and maybe they can, you know, make a make out and hopefully find the bride before the big day.

00;04;45;24 - 00;05;06;09
Speaker 1
So it's a really fun, like fast paced book that kind of just I think it's fine because you you're being able to see all these scenes as they're going on this road trip and up in Vegas, the Grand Canyon, all the cool places and definitely has this steamy things, too. So it's fun.

00;05;06;09 - 00;05;14;28
Speaker 2
One of the really fun things about Emma and Finn is their banter, their debate, partners. What was it like crafting those conversations?

00;05;15;02 - 00;05;37;13
Speaker 1
I love that because I do feel like banter is so important in just the way that you can see chemistry within somebody like in real life, especially when you're you're reading and trying to like build that that tension. And so it was really fun to, like, make these characters debate team partners. So you could kind of like in the past see how they, like, had that dynamic.

00;05;37;25 - 00;06;00;02
Speaker 1
But to actually do that, I really leaned on my coauthor, Emily Larabee, who's been doing this for years. I love to write. It's like a passion of mine and like a hobby. But to be able to take on the undertaking of creating this book in an actual feasible amount of time, that wouldn't be ten years down the road.

00;06;00;14 - 00;06;24;23
Speaker 1
I'm so thankful for the team that I had to kind of help us, OK, we I had this idea that we want them to be like these frenemies and they have this background and this tension, but how do we actually create that on the page? Emily was so helpful, just being able to really get all the this, the description, what I wanted, the feelings on on the page.

00;06;24;23 - 00;06;49;09
Speaker 1
I really leaned heavily on her to be able to actually make that happen and definitely was a part of all the conversations and writing and editing it. But she's the master of some of these conversations going on, like how do you just like do this so easily? Like this would take me like three months to feel like I have anything to show you guys.

00;06;49;09 - 00;07;09;04
Speaker 1
But it was really I'm I'm so proud of what we've done. But in the book, sorry, I'm just going, I'm just talking I get really excited. But in the book, you know, there's this core for and I really believe that, like, we had a group of women helping me with this, and that was it was four of us and so I have my core.

00;07;09;15 - 00;07;20;29
Speaker 1
The core four was so strong in making this book happen. And as amazing as it is and yeah, I just want to give them as much credit as possible because they really they're awesome.

00;07;21;06 - 00;07;25;14
Speaker 2
What was the process like for you in writing with a co-writer and this team?

00;07;25;20 - 00;07;39;14
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's definitely different like I said, a be writing is was more a hobby of mine and it kind this opportunity kind of came to me the opportunity to begin fiction, and I was a little bit nervous about it because I might like I said, I like to write about I don't.

00;07;39;14 - 00;07;40;20
Speaker 2
Know if I fully take.

00;07;40;20 - 00;08;12;07
Speaker 1
On this undertaking writing a book on my own life. It is a lot easier because like I've lived it, I know what it feels like. I, I don't have to make up some dream world, you know? So with this opportunity it was pitched to me and I was like, I would, I would love to do this. And so then I met with a few different co-writers and Emily is from Texas, and I just feel like we've just been more like Southern girls.

00;08;12;07 - 00;08;37;26
Speaker 1
And she really we have we have a similar voice of how we see things in the world. And so I love the way that she wrote and how she could take anything that was an idea that I had and put it on the page. And so we decided all to work together. And then we had two editors that kind of helped along the way before they published the publisher even came around.

00;08;37;27 - 00;08;58;00
Speaker 1
We worked with Glass and Entertainment, and we all were just in. We've had hours and hours of Zoom calls talking over what the plot points are going to be. How are we going to get from point A to point B? Are we making sure that it's really make sense that Emma is saying she keeps harping on I don't know.

00;08;58;01 - 00;09;17;13
Speaker 1
I'm trying to think of some of the examples, like why is she so upset about why does she feel like she really needs to find Sybil? Like, we make that make more sense and how are we going to make that make more sense? Like what kind of stories can be was the reasoning for why she feels so dead set on finding Sybil before this big day?

00;09;18;29 - 00;09;37;12
Speaker 1
It's like really bringing in those stories of why those things would happen. We talked about that, like for Endless Hours on Zoom, and then you'd go back and Emily really would start getting like the meat on the page. And then I would go back to edit edit things of how I wanted it to be. And it was just this back and forth.

00;09;37;20 - 00;09;53;02
Speaker 1
And then we had Janelle like that glass sound. They would really be able to see the thing full picture, like the zoom out because one of this be a great book. But I also was thinking about it like visually how I could see it. Could I see it on a big screen? Like what would this be like playing out in a movie in my head?

00;09;53;13 - 00;10;16;06
Speaker 1
And so they were able to kind of take that big picture and be able to make sure that that was landing so that it could help, you know, what other possible opportunities they really kind of led the charge in that very collaborative experience, endless hours of Zoom calls and chapters going back and forth. But it was really fun.

00;10;16;06 - 00;10;31;07
Speaker 1
I don't think it would be this kind of an experience with any other people. Like we just got each other and I'm just like I said, my core four is awesome and I'm very, very thankful.

00;10;31;11 - 00;10;40;03
Speaker 2
What did you learn about yourself in the process of writing a fiction book compared to writing your own story in God Bless This Mess? Oh.

00;10;41;14 - 00;11;07;01
Speaker 1
Really? That I have been craving an outlet to really be creative in this way. That's not like most of the other things that I've done have really like heavily been drawn off of my own experiences. But what I was able to do in this book, writing fiction I was able to take the feelings I've had and create a story around those.

00;11;07;08 - 00;11;32;04
Speaker 1
So people asked about the book, like, Is Emma based off you where there are similarities for sure, but she's very different from me, but the feelings that she had, she's had that was very rooted in a place of at a time. There's been times in my life where I felt like her like and how how do we take I kind of started from like the feeling and like, what is the story around that?

00;11;32;15 - 00;12;00;06
Speaker 1
And how do we create this really dynamic character and so that was fun to be able to figure out, like how do I get into my creative spot? It always has to come from some, some type of truth in me. And then to be able to just go from that was, was really fun. But there always has to be some foundation of truth in any character thing because then I just don't resonate with it.

00;12;00;06 - 00;12;12;03
Speaker 1
If not, if it doesn't feel like me, I don't feel like I can relate in any way to, you know, any type of story or experience. Then it doesn't feel like mine.

00;12;12;09 - 00;12;18;13
Speaker 2
What did you learn about romance from being on a reality romance show? That helped you write this book?

00;12;18;20 - 00;12;44;22
Speaker 1
You know, I've had a very different experience than most. I've I've lived like I've lived out all the tropes. I feel like you can fly three months of my life. So I big that gave me like a leg up of being able to be like, Oh, I've actually been in these, like, really abnormal experiences. That a lot of, like, romance novels kind of bring you into eye.

00;12;45;01 - 00;13;15;17
Speaker 1
So like I said, I could draw a lot of truth in some of these relationships experience because I've had enough. I've, I've kind of well, I throw amount of dates and different types of men and different dynamics with men. So I do think that that helped me always bring in that aspect of truth in some way. And, you know, Finn is not just one relationship in my life or one made in my life is kind of a accumulation of all some of the men in my life.

00;13;15;17 - 00;13;27;00
Speaker 1
I would say that of course, is is his own character in his own right. But yes, I guess that gave me a one up being able to be creative in drawing from some type of weird experiences I've had.

00;13;27;11 - 00;13;40;20
Speaker 2
So I read God Bless This Mess before I read the mistakes we never made, just to kind of understand you a little bit. So there are a lot of pieces of you in Emma what are some of the pieces of you that you put into the other characters? Nikki's is very obvious.

00;13;40;26 - 00;14;13;15
Speaker 1
Yes, Mickey other yes. I think Sybil is interesting. Because I think some of her fears and her running and her being avoidant of some things and really being able to go back to her past and really deal with that, that is something that is that that is definitely me in there. And being a kind of being a runner in some way, not knowing when you don't like it, a certain emotion and not wanting to release it and that I've gotten so much better at that in the past.

00;14;13;16 - 00;14;41;03
Speaker 1
You know, lots of years doing therapy, but being able to really sit in that has been uncomfortable and a hard thing. And so Sybil kind of is that part of me that can be a void and want to just run on to the next thing can be kind of like sparkly and do all the things and have all stories and put herself in like risky situations like that.

00;14;41;03 - 00;15;13;14
Speaker 1
That part of me is definitely there. Whereas like, there's another part of me that's anyone that's like the complete opposite that that's kind of where her character development starts from. But it's even little things. Like in one of the first chapters like that, people probably wouldn't know like these little Easter eggs of just being able to put little parts of myself like how Sybil and me are over these her, her outfit that she wears at school one day, which actually was how I met one of my best friends in kindergarten, was I was wearing these blue jeans, shorts that had these beaded tassels on them.

00;15;13;14 - 00;15;28;09
Speaker 1
And I was really shy and hadn't really met anybody. And I was in the bathroom just going to the bathroom, and we were washing hands the other. And she said, I like your I like your shorts. And we, like walked out of the bathroom, were like best friends. And we're we were friends for a really long time all throughout school.

00;15;28;09 - 00;15;39;15
Speaker 1
And so, like, adding little things like that that maybe other people wouldn't know. But it it brought in those little parts of me that sprinkled throughout.

00;15;39;20 - 00;15;50;25
Speaker 2
Between the two books. There's a lot of repetition of mistakes, embarrassment, shame. Why is it so important to you to be vulnerable in that area, both in fiction? And in nonfiction for readers?

00;15;50;28 - 00;16;15;11
Speaker 1
So when it comes to like reading the books that I love, there has to be some type of like really dense character development, even if it is some type of a more of a lighthearted book, I want to be able to relate to them. I wanted to know that the the the characters in this book feel the same things I feel, because that's the only way that you can really connect.

00;16;15;11 - 00;16;37;12
Speaker 1
And I think for a lot of us, that that read a lot like that, we have a connection that's like really deep with the characters. That's why we really love to read. You sometimes feel closer to your books and you can like real people. And I think the way to do that is always just being vulnerable and there being parts of the person who's who's writing the book in there.

00;16;37;22 - 00;17;07;09
Speaker 1
Just fabricate that. Or are these I don't know how I don't know how to fabricate that. Like there has to be truth throughout so that other people can hold on to that and pick that out and be able to to of course, like we love all the steamy make outs and the fun and the thrill to kind of just like watch this story unfold but the only thing that's actually going to really make it something that you can learn something about yourself throughout the book.

00;17;07;09 - 00;17;14;23
Speaker 1
Is by having truth and vulnerable parts sprinkled throughout. And that's my job to do.

00;17;14;28 - 00;17;25;02
Speaker 2
How did you keep this structure straight? There's a lot of different flashbacks and like different points of the day and keeping track of the days. What did you do to keep that all together?

00;17;25;04 - 00;17;47;12
Speaker 1
I mean, we we get so confused right? OK, is this tracking? Is this not like a way like how are they? Are they in the car right here? They were just here. Like those conversations were happening all the time because, yeah, there's so many different flashbacks throughout which I love because that's building that character development and being able to like really understand why Emma is the way she is.

00;17;47;22 - 00;18;22;06
Speaker 1
What is this tension between them? What is the relationship like between Emma and Sybil? You know, like, we need to layer that in because they're all there trying to find this bride, Sybil. But, you know, she's not really that much in the book. So you've got to build like, why is this so important and so and you're there in the car a lot of the time, so you can't just like be in the car having some of these conversation and so you really, really need those flashbacks to give something for the reader to not, not be bored.

00;18;22;10 - 00;18;46;26
Speaker 1
And so that's all awesome and great. But to do it is really confusing and takes a lot of eyes helping make sure that everything that's happening right now is making sense in time and space. And even like, you know, like the steamy scenes, like how are hands being positioned and like all except actually get this actually be working right now.

00;18;47;14 - 00;18;51;01
Speaker 2
Like, is this would this be something.

00;18;51;01 - 00;19;14;11
Speaker 1
Would that arm actually be there? Well, yeah, like all those things. Like it takes some acting out and it's a lot more complicated than I thought it was going to be. And that is why Emily Larabee and is the queen and help to make sure this all did not just fall apart and was just some like random mess.

00;19;14;11 - 00;19;17;11
Speaker 2
What's the best writing advice you received along your journey?

00;19;17;13 - 00;19;41;20
Speaker 1
As much as I can, being able to draw off of my own feelings and experiences because if I've felt that way or experienced something like that, a lot of these other people that are reading have and they want to connect to that. They want to see themselves in the character. So to be able to do that, you've got to put yourself you have to put yourself in that in that set.

00;19;41;20 - 00;20;08;18
Speaker 1
And it's is a different type of vulnerable than obviously writing a book about yourself. That's pretty intense. But kind of like when I was talking about Sybil, there's parts of myself that maybe not everybody knows that, hey, I can be like super avoidant and maybe not always the best friend because I run and don't tell people like that's I don't love that about myself, but I know there's people that also maybe see that and they can see, so we'll be able to become aware of that in herself.

00;20;08;18 - 00;20;38;20
Speaker 1
And how does she change that? How does she deal with that? Same thing with Emma, like why? Why do we sometimes feel that we have to be the one that is always on our has to be the one that's in charge of things and fixing things? Why do I feel like I have to be a fixer all the time like that is vulnerable to go tap into that part of yourself but that is what is really going to connect a reader with a character in a book and really make for something special and a special, special experience for people to read.

00;20;38;28 - 00;20;40;09
Speaker 2
What are your favorite tropes?

00;20;40;29 - 00;21;01;02
Speaker 1
I mean, I think some of my favorite shows are obviously in the book. I love a I love it Enemies to Lovers because it's like, you know, they're going to end up together. But I kind of just like the banter back and forth and like just the irritation because I don't know, I guess that's just been a lot of the reason I've like fallen for some of the guys in my life.

00;21;01;06 - 00;21;03;17
Speaker 1
Maybe not always the good ones, but it's always interesting.

00;21;03;17 - 00;21;18;01
Speaker 2
Once something I picked up on was there's a line about like singing Viva Las Vegas and you're a Swifty. And Travis sang that song at the Super Bowl. Did you, like, pick up on that and like.

00;21;19;24 - 00;21;41;21
Speaker 1
Oh, I mean, I did not pick up on that, but that is a good catch. If it means I can't even remember he said that, like after they won, right? Yeah. No, I didn't. I didn't pick up on that. And obviously this was done well before that. It's crazy how long writing a book takes, but then also the process of getting it out to everyone.

00;21;42;15 - 00;21;54;14
Speaker 1
But I love it. I love that we've got some sweaty connections going on, so it's. Yeah. Ha. And I feel like also that these love and good romance and we're getting one with Travis and Taylor, but you can also get one with them and then.

00;21;56;26 - 00;22;03;18
Speaker 2
And this was the first book of a two book deal. What tell us about the second half of your romance writing adventure.

00;22;03;20 - 00;22;39;21
Speaker 1
I know. I'm so I'm so excited obviously, for those that read the book, there is a character that at the end you're going to be wanting more understanding of what's happening. And we kind of go into that in book two. And really my hope is that while this is a story about men, Finn, it really is a love story and about friendship and the core for this this group of girls like how they relate to each other, how are they there for each other and then their own individual stories.

00;22;39;21 - 00;23;08;16
Speaker 1
And my hope is that people really connect to each one of them and want to know their individual story. And so Book two will kind of go into that with one of the characters, but they're always in there because they're they're tight, they're tight knit group, you know, sisterhood of the traveling pants type vibe. Like they're there. They're all there with each other, but they each have their individual, you know, story that's going on about figuring out how to love themselves and how to love other people.

00;23;08;16 - 00;23;28;16
Speaker 1
And I think you guys are going to be really, really excited. We're all are obviously like pretty deep into it right now. So I'm loving everything. I'm really good about it. And I hope people just love this first book with mistakes we've ever made and are just ready for some more because they got it for you.

00;23;28;22 - 00;23;31;24
Speaker 2
Any idea on when we can expect more announcements for it?

00;23;33;01 - 00;23;47;29
Speaker 1
Or not? I don't know yet. We're still like writing editing process you know, I'll just say I love a good beat summer read.

00;23;50;10 - 00;23;55;20
Speaker 2
There we go. Yeah. And since this is literary hype, what books are you hyped about right now?

00;23;57;07 - 00;24;18;12
Speaker 1
Oh, my gosh. When I am so deep in this, I in my own self, I feel like I have not had as much time to read. But right now I am reading. I just I read Rebecca's zero. I love her. Read her expiration dates. It was her new book is New York Times best seller. It was so great right now.

00;24;18;12 - 00;24;44;10
Speaker 1
I also really love Christine Hannah books, and so I'm halfway done with the women. I'd like to know I liked it and I've got a whole stack of ones that I'm I'm getting ready to read, but just trying to, you know, get through the book tour. It's a lot. And it's funny, like you asked me that and I talked to Rebecca about this.

00;24;44;10 - 00;24;59;25
Speaker 1
It's like I forget every book that I read back and I always think of the one, but there's two books that I've read recently. I'm like, Well, what's going on? I got the new Carly Fortune book and I'm excited to read that one. That's, as it's often said.

00;24;59;27 - 00;25;03;14
Speaker 2
Everyone, as soon as you ask what your favorite book is like, have I read a book ever in my life?

00;25;04;06 - 00;25;04;29
Speaker 1
I don't know.

00;25;05;09 - 00;25;10;07
Speaker 2
And thank you so much for taking the time to talk to literary hype about your book, Mistakes with Me.

00;25;10;24 - 00;25;13;07
Speaker 1
Thank you so much and so nice to talk to you.

00;25;16;06 - 00;25;34;00
Speaker 2
Thanks again to Hannah Brown for squeezing me into her day of interviews to talk about her book, Mistakes We Never Made It. If you'd like to get your hands on either of Hannah's books, the links to do so are in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to the Literary Hype podcast and give us some stars.

00;25;34;12 - 00;25;37;04
Speaker 2
Thanks for listening to the Literary Hype podcast.