120. VERONICA ROTH: Returning to Divergent and Dystopian Fiction While Protecting Mental Health

I am thrilled to welcome #1 New York Times Bestselling Author Veronica Roth back to LiteraryHype. She first came on the show back when this was just a few people watching my YouTube interviews. This marks her first return to the show since it became a podcast as well, and boy, do we have a lot to talk about! Veronica is making her return to the dystopian fiction genre in a big way, releasing Seek The Traitor's Son in May, and returning to the world of Divergent in October. We're talking all about announcing The Sixth Faction and what you can expect from it, as well as learning to stand up for yourself and protect your mental health.

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Seek The Traitor's Son
The Sixth Faction
Divergent

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The Sixth Faction
Divergent

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Seek The Traitor's Son
The Sixth Faction
Divergent

Transcript

00;00;02;24 - 00;00;11;22
Unknown
Hi and welcome to Literary Hype. I am Stephanie, your literary hype woman with the new author conversation for you. That is very buzzy right now for multiple reasons.

00;00;11;22 - 00;00;27;29
Unknown
Veronica Roth is putting out a brand new book, a new dystopian, and this is called Seek the Traitor Son. But that's not all we're talking about because, right before we did the interview, which was supposed to be focused on this book, she announced a new divergent book called The Six Faction.

00;00;27;29 - 00;00;39;28
Unknown
So we're talking about that. We're talking about seek the traitor, son. We're talking about mental health and so much more from your list.

00;00;40;01 - 00;00;44;25
Unknown
welcome back to Literary Hive. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Things have changed quite a bit since we.

00;00;44;25 - 00;01;04;11
Unknown
And we now have two microphones instead of sharing. I now look at this. It's got a logo and everything. We're so fancy now. Yeah. I mean, you were one of the OG ones on this channel back when I had, like, maybe 20 subscribers. So it's good to have you back. Congratulations on growing and developing. Well, I think that's what you're doing right now, too.

00;01;04;12 - 00;01;12;12
Unknown
Convenient set up with, your recent announcement. Yeah. And how that's been going. It's been great. I mean,

00;01;12;12 - 00;01;21;11
Unknown
there will be a new divergent series and is an alternate universe where Triss chooses a different faction and it comes the sixth faction is what it's called, and it comes out in October,

00;01;21;13 - 00;01;22;27
Unknown
which is very exciting.

00;01;23;00 - 00;01;38;27
Unknown
And you've had to, like, confront the internet a little bit, which I bet. Yeah. When you were like, I'm learning to stand up for myself a little bit, and I was like, you go girl. So what is it taken for you to get to that point, to be like, no, I'm going to address this and set this straight.

00;01;39;00 - 00;01;59;18
Unknown
I think it's just over the years, I learned that, not saying anything. Like I always want to be respectful, even if people are not respectful to me. I think that's important. But, I've learned that just letting things go by has made me feel worse. Like, I'm not protecting myself. Like not doing myself the service of just, like, gently standing up for myself.

00;01;59;18 - 00;02;13;04
Unknown
So, you know, of course, like, people are going to say it's a cash grab. And of course, I was going to say I didn't take an advance for this book. So I've been working for two years without pay, so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do that if I was just trying to get cash. Although I won't get paid for my labor, which is important.

00;02;13;09 - 00;02;25;16
Unknown
coming back to this as an adult, like more than ten years later. Now, how do you feel like your growth as a writer overall has helped you reevaluate Chris's story in a different light?

00;02;25;19 - 00;02;33;08
Unknown
think a lot of it goes back to this book, actually, the, seek the trader son. So I started writing this in September 2019.

00;02;33;10 - 00;02;52;29
Unknown
And I wrote like ten drafts of it. And, there were fun drafts that were, like, playful and, I don't know. Yeah, experimental. And over the course of doing that, I think writing this book was about like indulging myself in the things that I love and not being ashamed of them. So this book is full of, like, trophy goodness, you know, in some ways.

00;02;52;29 - 00;03;15;22
Unknown
And sometimes those tropes are upended and sometimes they're not. And it's romantic. And, it's just like, got all my favorite. It's like, if Zelda and Link are making out, it's like, you know, all these things I love, like I wanted to see. Anyway. So doing that, I think, helped me to understand that if I can embrace joy in writing, then I can produce something that feels better and I can have a great time with it.

00;03;15;22 - 00;03;33;08
Unknown
And I think readers can feel when you have a great time with the book. And so I think with divergent, like I had a lot of shame because of kind of the responses to the series and just a lot of negativity, even though there was a lot of positivity and, writing this helped me to be like, you don't have to feel ashamed of the things that you love.

00;03;33;13 - 00;03;47;18
Unknown
you've dabbled in so many different genres since divergent came out, which genre that you've written and has helped you the most with Seek the Traitor Son and the Six faction. Why? Oh, interesting. Okay.

00;03;47;20 - 00;03;57;29
Unknown
I think writing fantasy was really interesting. Like, that was so for a long time I wrote only science fiction. Really, even though my science fiction is, like, not hard sci fi, it's more soft sci fi.

00;03;58;01 - 00;04;19;03
Unknown
But writing fantasy in when on frozen to conjure razor I think helped me like, loosen up a little bit, you know, just, because fantasy needs rules, but it can also be, like, a little more twisty bendy of those rules. And I think at least it felt that way to me. And embracing that, like, helped me to just stop being so rigid.

00;04;19;03 - 00;04;25;26
Unknown
I think I'm a very like, you know, I like to follow the rules. Like, that's the kind of person I am. So I just like, had to free myself a little bit.

00;04;25;28 - 00;04;31;25
Unknown
How did it feel to revisit these characters and worlds that you haven't touched in so long?

00;04;32;01 - 00;04;35;10
Unknown
I mean, it was a little daunting because I was like, what do I remember about this series?

00;04;35;10 - 00;04;50;28
Unknown
So I had to I listened to it again on audiobook because that way it felt like someone was reading it to me, which was pretty fun, you know? And, I think that refamiliarize me with the world. And then I had to reread them, like on texts as well, you know, multiple times. Luckily there's also a wiki.

00;04;50;28 - 00;05;10;06
Unknown
So, like, in case I didn't remember a detail, sometimes it was on Wikipedia, which was amazing. But what was surprisingly easy is just getting directly back into those characters I have there. Like written in my in my DNA. Like, I know who they are and I know how they feel. And so that part was like, just shockingly simple.

00;05;10;06 - 00;05;29;16
Unknown
It's just like Triss, she's back, you know, it was cool. Did it feel like visiting an old friend? Yeah, but one that, you know, spoilers. Like, I really didn't expect to see you again for various reasons. So I mean, that part was like really, really nice. I was like, oh, she's back. Like how how great. Yeah. Did she start talking to you before you started?

00;05;29;19 - 00;05;45;08
Unknown
No exploring this. No, I'm not like a big characters talk to me when I'm not writing person. When I start writing, it's like when they reenter my life and, I don't hear them or anything, but I do like, like the feeling that they're. I'm going to, you know, spend time with them in the book,

00;05;45;11 - 00;06;06;28
Unknown
So with all of this internet discourse that has gone on since this announcement, how do you hold on to joy in the face of people not always reflecting that excitement back at you? Well, it's hard. It's been a little like, feels like, you know, steer into the dark place and you still see you're out and you Styrian and you steer out like, growth is not about, like, suddenly these things don't bother me.

00;06;06;28 - 00;06;18;10
Unknown
It's like it's easier for me to, like, move on to something else or to reframe it, or, I don't know, a lot of people were really supportive and kind and just look at that and think like, okay, like that's important to

00;06;18;16 - 00;06;22;23
Unknown
You burst into tears when you did the cover reveal. I did, yeah. It was just a lot.

00;06;22;23 - 00;06;36;06
Unknown
I think it was a lot of buildup. I've been keeping that secret for three years, so it was just like, yeah. And I was like, oh no, the secret's out. So yeah, it really hit me. So it was it was fun though. Yeah, that was a big book. Is. Yeah. How big is the book? It was taller than me and I'm six feet tall.

00;06;36;06 - 00;06;36;29
Unknown
So it was a big book.

00;06;37;05 - 00;06;51;02
Unknown
How big is the book itself going to be in page terms? I think it's a little longer than divergent, but not, like, noticeably. Oh, yeah. I mean, and this one that you're out here promoting seek the traitor, son, is. I think you said it took you a million words to get to this one.

00;06;51;03 - 00;07;07;22
Unknown
Yes. And it's the longest book you've written. Yes. Why did it take a million words to get this story right? It was because I was having fun with it, honestly. So it wasn't like this agonizing process. I think I just I kept, iterating because it was fun. So sometimes it was, like, more fantasy. Sometimes it was more sci fi.

00;07;07;22 - 00;07;26;14
Unknown
One time I tried it as a big disaster. Not a very long draft, but, each time I found something that I really wanted to hold on to for the next draft. And so I just, like, let myself play with it. Like I wasn't that that concerned about it. And at the core, the characters were what was carrying me through the drafts, and they have this tension between them.

00;07;26;14 - 00;07;37;29
Unknown
But it's not an enemies to lovers tension. It's like they have like a wound between them. So it's like a tender kind of, icky feeling between them. And that's what I wanted to keep going back to.

00;07;38;03 - 00;07;42;07
Unknown
for anybody who hasn't seen this or heard about this book. Yeah. What is the what is the gist of this book?

00;07;42;09 - 00;08;02;14
Unknown
The gist of this book is that it is an epic, romantic dystopian fantasy, which is a mouthful. Yes. But, about a woman who is a soldier. And one day she's summoned to these future seers to find out that she has a very important fate, which is to save her people from their enemies. Maybe it might not work, but along the way, she's going to fall in love with a man who will bring her death.

00;08;02;16 - 00;08;18;10
Unknown
So kind of a grim pronouncement, but that is where we begin this story. So it's set on a far future Earth. There is a deadly fever that has that will kill anyone who comes into contact with it. But then half of them come back to life with special gifts. So that's kind of the premise of it.

00;08;18;15 - 00;08;41;13
Unknown
it's a fun little adventure. Yes. Dystopian is so back. What is it about dystopian that has us crawling back to it now? Honestly, like, it seems like a weird time to be into dystopian really for various reasons. But I think it's actually more about nostalgia. So like the last time you felt really safe and happy while reading for a lot of people was in the 20 tens when they were reading a dystopian.

00;08;41;13 - 00;08;59;04
Unknown
So I think that's part of the drive toward it. But also like dystopian stories, especially the ones that are popular now are like about kind of falling in love, like still having possibility for adventure and romance in the midst of dystopia. And like, why do you think we like that? You know, because I want to believe that, like, I can have an adventure right now.

00;08;59;06 - 00;09;05;17
Unknown
the world isn't ending just because it feels like it might. Yeah, it's like the world is ending, but you still get to live in it.

00;09;05;19 - 00;09;13;21
Unknown
thinking about the big picture things and it's like, how do I hold on to my own hope and like, how do you protect your mental sanity in the world when the world is on fire?

00;09;13;22 - 00;09;30;27
Unknown
Yeah. Like not everything in your life and everything that you do has to wrap around the horrors you know, that are happening on a grand scale that maybe you can't influence that much. Like you can do small things, but you can't do everything. And I, you know, it's good to read about people who are living a life in the midst of dystopia.

00;09;31;01 - 00;09;34;22
Unknown
What's your favorite way to find joy in life outside of writing?

00;09;34;25 - 00;09;35;18
Unknown
Oh, boy.

00;09;35;25 - 00;09;51;24
Unknown
I mean, fighting with your dog, obviously. Yeah. Oh, I love her. She's so sweet. Yeah, I, I don't know, my my husband and I have a great friendship and friend relationship, and we spend a lot of time together. And really, even though I'm a deep introvert, like, I find a lot of joy with being with people.

00;09;51;28 - 00;09;53;27
Unknown
So hanging out with friends, you know,

00;09;53;29 - 00;10;04;21
Unknown
A big part of this story is the culture. So talk a little bit about your process in building a world's culture that is going to impact these people. So much.

00;10;04;29 - 00;10;11;03
Unknown
So really, I think it's the dystopian part that helped with these two. There are two, you know, nation groups in this book.

00;10;11;03 - 00;10;32;13
Unknown
One is much larger than the other. So a bit of a David and Goliath situation. But, they, they originally started with like their reactions to this fever. So the fever was like the central component. And one of the cultures has like decided that there are some losses that are acceptable in the in the pursuit of strength. And another nation has decided that no loss of life is like acceptable.

00;10;32;13 - 00;10;47;24
Unknown
And we need to protect people at any cost. So I think those two instincts for like how to deal with the fever helped to create the culture. So when you're building a world, you just make one decision and then you let it ripple into other decisions. So that's pretty much where they began.

00;10;47;27 - 00;10;52;11
Unknown
On the romance side of things like when we meet she's married. Yep.

00;10;52;18 - 00;11;11;25
Unknown
But then this prophecy, like she's going to fall in love with this other guy. So how did you approach that relationship without making your main character look bad. Oh right. I mean, so this is a part I, I rarely include in the pitch because I want to be clear that there's no infidelity, in the book, but, because, you know, that would just set people up for a different kind of story.

00;11;11;25 - 00;11;34;18
Unknown
But cheating trope is not well loved. Yeah. And, you know, not well loved by me. Although, you know, any trope, I'm interested in how people do it, but, yeah. So I think what I wanted was not to not to make the previous relationship look bad. You know, people like the idea of it is, that like, one does not negate the other, I think.

00;11;34;18 - 00;11;47;26
Unknown
So she's married and she's happily married and it is a good relationship. And then she learns that she's supposed to fall in love with this other person and how she gets there. I will not spoil, but like, I want the two relationships to be distinct from each other, but like, equally valuable.

00;11;48;03 - 00;11;52;03
Unknown
Especially when you have that character that's going to have to fall in love with someone else.

00;11;52;06 - 00;12;10;04
Unknown
It's such a tricky thing to get the reader to buy into it and not be mad at your character for like, yeah, it's like, oh, well, you had a good thing. Now you're just being greedy and going after another good thing. Yeah. As if people can't have more than one good thing, right? What? No. Yeah. No, we can't have that.

00;12;10;06 - 00;12;10;19
Unknown
Oh,

00;12;10;22 - 00;12;27;21
Unknown
so you are doing two books in one year. How are you taking care of your mental health in Bridget? I know that's funny. I know I'm like, am I? That's everyone that I've asked that question to has been like, I'm not. Yeah. I'm not saying like, Matt, Matt Donovan, he's like, I'm not saying let's all love that for him.

00;12;27;21 - 00;12;45;13
Unknown
I mean, I hate that for him, but oh, how am I taking care of my mental health? I don't know, you know, I'm appropriately medicated. Am I a medical professional? There is part. So that is helpful, but I think when I take breaks, I try and really take breaks. So step away. Don't look at the thing. Do something that feels restorative.

00;12;45;15 - 00;13;04;21
Unknown
I read a study about burnout that said, people think just taking time is what will help their burnout. But actually like doing restorative activity is what helps more with burnout. So that can mean taking time. But it actually like they need to do something that feels like separate from their work. And, you know, like valuable and enjoyable.

00;13;04;28 - 00;13;06;11
Unknown
So I'm going to be doing that.

00;13;06;14 - 00;13;28;07
Unknown
That sounds good. Probably should take some lessons there. Do it. I don't know what I don't. Why are you pointing at me like that? I just think you need a point. Attacked. Attack! Oh, is there anything else that I missed that you are allowed to talk about? No. I mean, we could just briefly touch on the insane schedule because.

00;13;28;09 - 00;13;36;08
Unknown
Yeah, like, you're you're here at your list and you're about to go on tour. Yes. And I'm sure there's a tour cooking for six pack. Yes. Yeah.

00;13;36;14 - 00;13;44;21
Unknown
See the trader sign comes on on May 6th. Fashion comes on in October. The sequel to six faction comes out in February. And the sequel to Seek the Trader Sun comes out in like, June, I think.

00;13;44;21 - 00;14;01;00
Unknown
So it's just four books in like 12 months, which is. So you're not saying, no, I'm really not okay. But I've been working toward this for years, so it feels like, yes. Finally, you were pretty quiet there for a while, just like, yeah, I just wrote a couple novellas, you know? I was like, oh, just doing novellas, having some good time.

00;14;01;00 - 00;14;03;27
Unknown
Like, no, I was secretly doing all this.

00;14;03;29 - 00;14;18;04
Unknown
What's it like for you trying to keep all these secrets? You know, you just get used to it. So even now, the problem is, like, it's not secret anymore, so I can talk about it. So I need to, like, make myself talk about it. So that's the hard part. Keeping it secret was like, no big deal.

00;14;18;07 - 00;14;31;07
Unknown
Yeah. Well, because you're an introvert, so you just. Yeah, I just don't see people. Just. You see people, and you don't have to worry about spilling the beans. Exact. Did you accidentally tell anybody that you shouldn't have? Yeah, a few people. But not like anyone that I felt really worried about. But there were just a couple of people.

00;14;31;07 - 00;14;50;20
Unknown
I was like, oh, you didn't know that already? Okay, right. What's like, let me go get an NDA real fast? Yes, we did sell a couple copies of the Divergent deluxe edition early by accident. At RC2, e2, which was fine, except there's a there's a preview of this expansion in the back of it, we were like, oh, no, the secret is going to get out.

00;14;50;20 - 00;15;07;15
Unknown
That was like three weeks before the announcement. Anyway. Nothing happened. Everyone was good. So. Oh that's fun. That's okay. So that that explains the timing of the announcement because you're doing the 10th anniversary divergent. Because I, it was in the back. That's why I had to do it I see I see how you're working

00;15;07;16 - 00;15;08;17
Unknown
actually yes.

00;15;08;20 - 00;15;25;25
Unknown
This all makes sense. The world is coming together now. Yes. Well, the last question we always ask because this is literary hype. What books are you hyped about right now? I just finished This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me by Elena Andrews, and it was such a delight. I listened to the audiobook and I read it just alternating or whatever, and it was so good.

00;15;25;27 - 00;15;33;22
Unknown
Yeah. Everyone should read it. It's really fun. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for hanging out with literary hype. But y'all, thank you

00;15;33;25 - 00;15;51;08
Unknown
Thanks again to Veronica for hanging out with me at Yale West to talk all about Seek the traitor Son and her upcoming return to the divergent world. The sixth faction. If you want to get your hands on this book or some of her others, the links to do so are down in the description for you, as well as where to find her on social media.

00;15;51;11 - 00;16;00;15
Unknown
If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to the Literary Hype Podcast. Give us some stars and share it with a friend. Thanks so much for listening to the Literary Hype Podcast.