Taj talks creativity with Robin Jackson, singer-songwriter and community organizer. Topics include using creativity to work through loss and grief; acceptance, permission and belonging and their relationship to creative process; and how singing is a healing tool built into our human bodies.
Robin also sings a song from his upcoming album.
Part 1 of 2.
Robin's website: RobinJackson.net
Songwriter Soiree: robinjackson.net/songwriter-soiree/
Taj's website: TajBaker.com
Taj talks creativity with Robin Jackson, singer-songwriter and community organizer. Topics include using creativity to work through loss and grief; acceptance, permission and belonging and their relationship to creative process; and how singing is a healing tool built into our human bodies.
Robin also sings a song from his upcoming album.
Part 1 of 2.
Robin's website: RobinJackson.net
Songwriter Soiree: robinjackson.net/songwriter-soiree/
Taj's website: TajBaker.com
Taj: Welcome to Playful Presence, conversations about creativity, mindfulness, and play. My name is Taj Baker. I'm an artist, meditator, and coach, and I've taught lots of workshops to help people discover their natural creativity. The idea behind this podcast is that these conversations with working creatives will give you tools, ideas, and new perspectives in working through your own process as a creative.
Kind of like a virtual coach. And to help you apply these ideas to your life in general because life is creative. If you'd like to get my newsletter and receive even more resources, you can go to tajbaker. com.
My guest today is Robin Jackson, singer songwriter and community organizer, and we talk about creativity as a way to work through heartbreak and loss.
We talk about the words acceptance, permission, and belonging, and how they relate to creative process, and how singing is a healing tool that's built into the human body. We also get to hear a song from Robin's upcoming album. So I hope you enjoy part one of my two part conversation with Robin Jackson.
Welcome, Robin.
ROBIN
Hey, hey, hey. It's great to be here.
TAJ
And can you tell us a little bit about yourself to start with?
ROBIN
Yeah, absolutely. I'm a professional musician and space holder. And community organizer, and I've been living in Portland, Oregon for 20 years playing music and producing songwriting events and songwriting retreats for songwriters and creatives of all levels to find more connection and expression in their lives.
TAJ
Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, I've been a fan of your music for a long time. So can you tell me a little bit about how you first caught the bug for music?
ROBIN
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think it wasn't many lives ago, actually, if you want to get woo [00:02:00] woo. But yeah, I've always done music. My parents both really encouraged it.
I started performing when I was five years old on violin. And my dad was also a songwriter and spent a lot of time hearing his music around my house. And I played all the way through high school and college and really love playing with bands because I really liked the community aspect of it. And so I started off in funk bands in high school.
A lot of people start off in funk bands in high school. It's kind of a cliche. And then, yeah, played in March 4th, marching band for a long time and vagabond opera. And then really started to find my own sense of self as a songwriter in my twenties when I moved to Portland. That's been a gloriously rich and amazing journey with ups and downs, many ups and downs.
TAJ
Yeah. I remember seeing you and Vagabond Opera play live and always really enjoying how much fun you were having on stage.
ROBIN
Totally. I love that band so much. We still get many messages a day from fans all over the world being like, when are you coming back? Vagabond Opera is just such an incredible combination of theater and cabaret and art.
And what I love most about it was like, Getting to create these worlds, welcoming people into a 1920s French cafe or a Turkish belly dance lounge or a Jewish dance party, you know, because our music was so eclectic and getting to enjoy the theater of that band really helped me. As a singer and helped me get over a lot of performance anxiety, actually.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
TAJ
It's hard to tell from this side, you know, so comfortable. Yeah. I remember in, I think it was 2010 or 11. I was living pretty close to Mount Tabor and you guys played right around my birthday that summer up on Tabor. And I remember telling people, well, you know, my backyard is 670 acres. I have [00:04:00] And a dormant volcano, and my favorite band is playing my backyard for my birthday.
ROBIN
That's awesome. That's so cool. Yeah. Yep. It's been an amazing journey with them, and they really helped me get into a lot of my songwriting too. I just love that group. I love groups that are outside the box and make people think and sort of like, this is different, you know, and that's a group that.
TAJ
So tell me about how you got into your solo work.
ROBIN
Well, I wrote my first song for my first woman I fell in love with when I was 19. And it was like an arduous process of weeks trying to get lyrics out because I wanted it to be perfect. And I really wanted to share this. feeling for her, and I did, and it was so great. And then I got into the more performative bands like Vagabond Opera on March 4th, where I was writing songs for them.
And Vagabond Opera allowed me to really write songs that were theatrical and taking into a world and being a [00:05:00] character. But deep down, I was feeling this desire to touch into the more intimate, vulnerable side of myself. Like some of my favorite songwriters and so I started writing some more intimate songs and those were really spurred of course by heartbreak by emotion and I really cranked out a bunch of those around the time that my dad died and I went through a pretty bad separation and these songs just started coming out of me.
And I wanted a place to put these emotions. And so obviously some of the best music in the world comes from the most emotional places, often the hardest places. But I was really scared of playing in front of people. I suffered from self consciousness a lot of being seen too much and being just judged, you know, which is silly, not silly, but it's a lot of people share themselves, but I struggled with it.
And so I went to Burning Man one year and had this [00:06:00] amazing experience playing music with a friend of mine. We ended up at like five in the morning around this grand piano that our camp had brought to Burning Man with oil lanterns and the sun coming up and sharing our songs with each other, one on one songs.
And it was the first time I'd ever done that and felt comfortable enough to do it and it was life changing. And I was like, this is such an amazing experience sharing my art. I'm sure there's so many other songwriters out there that don't share their music with people because they're scared. When I come home next week, I'm going to start this monthly event called the songwriters, soiree which is like a monthly open mic in my living room.
I really want to feel more connected right now. And I was struggling with a lot of grief from losing my dad who died six months prior to that. And so we opened up our living room, my house, we had like 50 people come in and something was magical. It was like we, we won the lottery of the magic of life test.
Everyone there was like, Oh my God, it was such a [00:07:00] beautiful experience. And a lot of people just share their intimate songs. There was some well known artists that showed up, which was cool. Kind of mingling with everybody. And then we started this thing every month and I used it as a accountability for writing songs to create my first solo record.
And so having that monthly carrot kind of made me finish songs one after another. Cause I didn't want to show up without it. And it was that for so many people there. And we ended up getting hundreds of people coming to our events and Portlandia even came and filmed one of them. And they've just been a really monumental part of my journey as a solo artist.
TAJ
That's such an amazing origin story that came out of grief and it came out of Burning Man.
ROBIN
I know, I know. It's a cool background. So sometimes those hippie festivals really pay off. Yeah. And then the aspect I want to really reinforce is that you're talking about accountability, that not everyone [00:08:00] can just go off and create and have nothing to answer to, you know, it's so helpful for a lot of us to have a monthly or weekly, either like a buddy or an event or something to, to, you know, kick us in the butt and get us creating.
Yeah.
TAJ
Now we're going to take a very short break for me to tell you a little bit about coaching. People often want some kind of a change in their lives. Maybe you're wanting to start a creative journey or you're a creative who's blocked or needing a new direction. Imagine that there's all these different parts inside of you with different desires and wants and some of these parts are completely on board with Moving toward change and maybe one or more of them isn't quite so sure.
It's like when I used to be uncomfortable putting my face in the water when I would go swimming. I would just do the backstroke or the sidestroke. I was finding workarounds so [00:09:00] that I wouldn't have to face My discomfort. But avoiding that discomfort kept me limited in terms of what I was able to experience and do.
And that's no way to live. I'll never forget the first time I went snorkeling. So not only was I able to put my face in the water and still breathe But I suddenly saw all the beauty under the ocean surface, and it was such a revelation. I went from feeling tense when I would swim, to feeling totally relaxed and supported by the water.
It was like I was flying. That's how I see coaching. We address the part of you that has ambivalence or reluctance to move forward. And once we really get to know what will help that part to feel safe and heard, And on board with your dreams and your aspirations, it's amazing how things just begin to flow and become easier.
And going back to that ocean metaphor. What opens up when you let go of that fear is your creative voice, your unique point of [00:10:00] view, your authentic self. And that is as beautiful and magical as the ocean sea life that I saw for the first time when I tried that snorkel mask. A beautiful world opens up when you let go of a fear and suddenly you have the tools you need to move forward with a goal.
You're no longer moving toward your goal as if you were driving with one foot on the gas and one on the brake. Instead, there's flow and ease around it. Although there's going to be moments that are challenging, where you have to do some hard work, there has to be fun and play and creativity. As part of the process, or else, for me at least, it's just not going to happen.
If you'd like to explore further and see if you and I would be a good fit for coaching, I would like to offer you a free online coaching session. So you can go to TajBaker.com to book your free session. Now let's get back to the conversation.
ROBIN
Doing it alone will only take [00:11:00] you so far. Mm hmm. And as a songwriter, the minute It's like, we all need an audience. I went to a cool dance performance once that it was a white bird. And before the dance performance, the performers came out and sat in front of the audience and chairs and everyone was like, Oh, this is weird.
It's kind of fourth wall stuff. And they were like, we want to have a conversation with you. And the conversation was acknowledging that their art was almost pointless unless there was an audience and that they were kind of like. Beholden to having an audience there and that they could work on their art for years and years and spend hundreds and thousands of hours and dollars.
And then we could arrive and just go, that was cool. Or that was amazing. Or I didn't like it, but we needed it. It was like this communal act. And for me, it's similar with music where I play a song in my own space alone. I don't really know how I feel about that song truly until I play it for at least one person.
The minute there's one other [00:12:00] person that's witnessing that song, I notice how I feel about the song. And all the aspects of the song, like, Oh, actually, I feel really nervous about playing this chorus. Maybe it's not developed or, Oh, I feel so good. This verse feels so true. And I love that I'm being witnessed in it.
And when we found that at the soirees, how a lot of people would play songs the first time, because we encouraged a lot of new song shares there. And so you'd see the energy and the power of that process come alive. And, you know, it's like with improv, you obviously need other people. It's a connected community experience.
TAJ
How long has the soiree been going on now? It's been like 10 years.
ROBIN
We just had our 15 year anniversary, which is crazy and amazing. We've had over 6, 500 people play on our stage. And yeah, so it's every month in Portland. And then we host these songwriters soiree retreats. Which are these deep dive experiences, you know, at our 10 year anniversary, I was like, now what?
And so I want to take this deeper into the group [00:13:00] experience. And so I created this four or five day creative immersion experience called the Northwest Songwriter Soiree Retreat. And we go to a retreat center out in nature and we offer people a chance to go way deeper into their creativity through workshops, through opportunities to perform.
Through connecting with artists from all over the country. It's a songwriting camp, but it's more of like a creativity camp. We really made it accessible for anyone who just wants to be creative and explore their creative self. That's like my background.
TAJ
I know people who have been to your camp and
found it. to be Transformational.
ROBIN
Oh yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, it's been, I, I didn't know what to expect, you know? It's become more of like a deep spiritual personal development. Camp described as like a creativity camp is what somebody said who came out of it. And so, yeah, it feels important to be offering that space to people [00:14:00] because a lot of people just don't have enough place to connect in that meaningful way of feeling really seen and heard.
So we just see the medicine that that offers people. So 15 years later, you know, we're doing two of those camps a year. And we have one coming up this January on the Oregon coast. And what are the dates? The dates are January 15th to the 18th. So the first day is Martin Luther King Day. And it's at this gorgeous retreat center right on the Oregon coast with about, we'll have anywhere between like 70 and 90 people there.
Wonderful. Yeah. And there's still space. Great.
TAJ
So I have a bunch of questions related to creativity. Okay. Yeah. I love talking about this. How would you define the word creativity?
ROBIN
Oh my gosh. I think it's about using our imagination to create something where there was nothing or using existing things to create something new and I think that everybody is [00:15:00] creative.
And, uh, there's a lot of people in the world who are like, I'm not creative. And I'm like, no, no, no, we are really all creative. And that's actually one of the pillars of the soiree retreat is really like getting people on board with that idea that every moment can be creative. It can be the way you talk to somebody or the way you work on your car or how you prepare a meal.
So one of my favorite. Authors on creativity is Rick Rubin, who's amazing, famous music producer. And he just wrote a book called the creative act, a way of being. And it's a fantastic book and it's all about that being creative and the creative process. And I just. Love this book and I, I quote it all the time, so I recommend it to anybody.
TAJ
So yeah, you and I share a philosophy about creativity that's very similar for a long time. You know how in school people are labeled as creative or not? Yes. From a very early age. It's just so damaging. [00:16:00] So damaging about how back in. Earlier times, let's say you were living in a village and you needed a bowl.
Well, you didn't go to Walmart, you went to the river and you got some clay and you made yourself a ball and you decorated it, or if you needed to tell a story, maybe you pulled a drum out or some, you know, like it was just part of. Everyone's life, not that it was just those special people.
ROBIN
Yeah, totally.
And I think in America, especially, we have a sort of American idol attitude. It's like the top people get to be singers and be creative. And everyone else is kind of like, Oh, well, I can't do that. Or there's a lot of people I meet who are shut down in their voice. Most people are terrified of singing.
Maybe if you're listening to this, you can relate. Like you were told at some time that you didn't sound good or you shouldn't sing or you sing off tune. And you know, for me, that's one of the most human creative acts is singing [00:17:00] and it's in our bodies. For, you know, most people who can use their voice and it's a birthright.
I think why I'm here on this earth is to just help more people realize that the best thing is just to participate. There's so many cultures out there where singing is the same as breathing. It's on the same level of like. Yeah, you just sing. It doesn't matter if you're singing a tune or if you sound like a frog, you just sing.
Yeah. And so it's the same with being creative. I worked at our arts based youth empowerment camps for many, many years. This group called power of hope out of Seattle, which is what the Northwest songwriters where I retreat is based on. And that a huge tenant of that camp was helping the young people own their creativity.
And especially when you're in high school, and there's a lot of judgment just to break through that. Yeah. And also, you know, for anybody listening, if you try something that you're afraid to try, even if you don't stick with it, just trying some form of creativity helps us to know [00:18:00] what's right for us.
TAJ
Yeah. It helps us grow as people. So let's say taking one of your improvisational singing classes or doing visual art or improv, you might not do it forever, but to try it out helps us to become more fully human. You might learn something about yourself.
ROBIN
exactly. I love that you said that you might not stick, be like, okay, I'm going to do improv singing forever, but through the act of taking a risk and going out on a limb, you might find that, oh, I made it, it might give you some confidence to then carry that energy into somewhere else in your life, singing together as a group.
It's just like one of the best, most healing things at the retreats we do. We always make sure we have a lot of voice teachers and do a lot of singing as a group. And I just watch when you do that. I mean, it's scientifically proven. If you sing for two minutes a day, it like drastically, it kicks your parasympathetic nervous system and just is so good for your health on so many levels.
There's this quote. It's actually [00:19:00] sitting in front of me because I was reading the Rick Rubin book this morning, funny enough. Can I just read this quote? I just, yeah. So it's one by Rick Rubin. Living life as an artist is a practice. You are either engaging in the practice or you're not. It makes no sense to say you're not good at it.
It's like saying I'm not good at being a monk. You're either living as a monk or you're not. We tend to think of the artist's work as the output. The real work of the artist is a way of being in the world.
TAJ
That makes me think of meditation where just sitting and meditating, you are meditating. You don't do it well or badly.
A lot of people are just like, Oh, I can't make my mind stop. Well, that's not the point. But if the mind is very active, then you're noticing that. And that's your meditation that day. If you're showing up to write or sing or draw or whatever it is. On a regular basis. That's the practice.
ROBIN
Yeah. Practice.
Singing in the, to scream in the car, sing in the car. You're doing it, you know, sit [00:20:00] down to write a song, write nothing on your page. You're still doing it. You know, it's just about claiming and owning. Like I can sing. I'm a creative person.
TAJ
I noticed behind you before we turned off our cameras, two words on the wall there, acceptance and permission.
ROBIN
Oh yeah, and there's another one above that one, which is belonging. Thanks for noticing. Yeah, I created a vocal improv. E course, which is on my website and I was trying to think what are the three principles that could guide a lot of the work that feels important to me that I feel like would really help people the most and kind of guides the work I do.
And there are similar principles. That, um, we use at the songwriter's soiree retreat. So belonging is the sense of you belong here, which is very simple, but a lot of people don't feel that they feel awkward or out of place or unincluded. And so when people feel welcomed and included, they open up. So there's this feeling of you [00:21:00] belong here as a creative person that comes from the idea of self acceptance.
So for, for singing specifically, it's about accepting what comes out in your mouth. And whatever day you're having will affect the sound of your voice. So if you're having just gotten a fight with your spouse or you're feeling stoked, you know, or you got enough sleep or you didn't, it's going to affect your voice.
And it's about not judging that. It's just noticing like, Oh, wow. My voice sounds really croaky right now. Or my voice sounds like a Disney princess. That's cool. Just accepting that. And then the permission is the word for a lot of people. Just giving yourself permission to be an artist, to be creative. Not get it right.
It's okay.
TAJ
Yeah, the first improv class I ever went to our teacher said we celebrate mistakes We're actually gonna do something called the failure bow. That's awesome If you feel like you made a mistake just raise your hands up in there and say I failed and everybody will clap I love it. And that just made me feel [00:22:00] so comfortable.
I was like, yep. I found the right place
ROBIN
That's really cool. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. That's fantastic. Celebrating. It's like behind every success, there's like a thousand failures. Yeah.
TAJ
When you see a painting in a museum or you hear a song that you love, there's a lot of steps that went into that. It's not just that it.
Came out of the person fully formed like, you know, Athena out of the head of Zeus. It's the process and it's being willing to stick with it.
ROBIN
Exactly. I mean, you can listen to any album. You can bet every artist has written 20 terrible songs that they don't like. There's another quote I love, which is failure is the information you need to get where you're going.
So just think of it as like an essential part of the way to get there. Yeah. It's part of the creative process. Yeah. Yeah. I like that you said that. I like that you mentioned that failure bow. That's really cool. Really, really giving permission for that. Yeah.
TAJ
So where do you feel most creative? Are there any [00:23:00] environments that help you feel more creative or less creative?
ROBIN
I love this question. Yeah, that's, it kind of depends what mood I'm in. You know, I, I sometimes do the, like, I'm going to go to a cabin alone for four days and write my love where I don't always feel very creative when I go. Actually, I find that there's this pressure suddenly in this space and all I want to do is sit and stare at the river and empty my mind.
So oddly, I mean, most of the places where I write songs is like in my bedroom. Honestly, I like having some input around, I like people in my house. I like be able to go for a walk and be around energy. And then I just love being creative with people. Like tonight, for instance, I'm having five of my favorite musicians who are good at improv coming over and we're jamming in my living room.
And so that's another place where I love being creative is just with like a small group. Yeah. And that's a great way to fill the creative well, you know, to just not be trying to create a [00:24:00] product. But just play. Yeah, just play. Yeah, absolutely. My dream life is being in a place like the Soiree Retreat where I could just be surrounded by people being creative and sort of dip in and out of jams and witnessing people.
I like that village energy, being around people. Helps me be creative.
TAJ
How do you typically approach the beginning of a new creative project?
ROBIN
Ooh, let's see. Well, if it's writing a song, I love asking songwriters how they write songs. I have a whole songwriting process that I tend to lean towards, which is, I often listen to voice memos that I've made.
So I have hundreds of voice memos of song ideas that I'll put on my phone throughout the day or whatever. And then I'll maybe check in with a few of them and see if one of them pops out and kind of just sit with it. And then I'll go over the music. I always start with the music and I don't have the lyrics.
The words which are arduous come later. Sometimes if I'm [00:25:00] wanting inspiration, I'll listen to a few other songs of other artists I love and see if anything from those songs sort of tipped and I'll just sit with it for a couple hours and let it roll around and it'll start. Churning and coming up and if I can sit there through the fidgeting and desire to go eat a bunch of sugar or distract myself Then usually something will happen There's a great book called the war on art by Stephan Pressfield, which is all about that the creative versus resistance He calls it and resistance is anything except being creative, your laundry, your kid, your food, your job, your whatever.
So if I can really stick with that, then good things can happen. So you've mentioned being inspired by other people's music and by relationships and emotion. Are there other things that really inspire you? I just, I love people's stories. If I find some songwriters that have really great stories, I'll sometimes be like, wow, I never thought to tell a story or I'll [00:26:00] read short stories sometimes just to take me into a world and kind of fill my head.
Yeah, books really do well. I read The Overstory when it came out, which is really about historical. Yeah, trees and social activism and technology. Incredible book and should be a film. And I wrote a song based on that book, which is coming out on my record.
TAJ
Ah, that might be a good segue.
ROBIN
Right. That's so cool.
I wrote this song. It's called the same tree and it was really inspired by that book. I read that book and I was so touched by just the knowledge of how connected trees are. And how there's so little we know as humans, and nature is just like, we are here, we got you, and then we cut it all down, you know, for a short sighted profit.
And so this song just really speaks to that, this sort of grief in it. [00:27:00] It's part of the chorus, it's like, the way the wind blows, the waterfalls. We are a part of it all. The breath inside of me, inside of you. So much these days is us and them caught up in a case of otherin. But we all come from the same tree.
And I think at that time I was seeing a lot of stuff on social media where I was just like, Gosh, there's a lot of the other happening. It's my view and then the other view. If there's anything I could wish for humanity, I know it's like a hippie statement because I grew up from hippies, but it was that, it would be that.
Imagine all the people living together as one and so, yeah, so this song sort of speaks to that. All right. Here.
Make sure I'm in the right key.[00:28:00]
I had a dream last night, that I lived in the ground. My roots dug down deep. With every breath, a thousand leaves would shake. And the whole earth would creak.
I had a dream last night. That my roots were a love song. Hands clasp tight for a million years. All on my sisters. And all of my brothers, we all cry the same tears.[00:29:00]
The way the wind blows, the waterfall, we are a part of it all. A breath inside of you, inside of me. So much these days.
We all come from, we all come from the same tree.
I had a dream last night. The sky was burning ashes on my tongue from a. To turn, anger is the spark from a world that is learning. You can't fight fire with fire, or there'll be nothing left to burn.
Divisiveness and righteousness. [00:30:00] A wind upon the flames underneath. The words we speak, we are all the same. The trunk is a passage from the earth to the sky in its roots. We are born and we are will die
inside.
So much these days is us and them, Got up in a gaze of other end. But we all come from, We all come from, We all come from, We all come from. We all come from, we all come from [00:31:00] the same tree. Woah, woah, woah, woah, yeah. Woah, woah, woah.
ROBIN
There's a taste for ya.
TAJ
Beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, it just makes me think about how Creativity as activism is such a huge piece. It's such a motivating thing for a lot of us that we can get our ideas out there in a way that people can really share.
ROBIN
Yay. Absolutely. The power of the song is how many songs do you know out there that have started a movement or have been adopted by a movement or been an anthem for people who are voiceless or trying to get their message across?
You know, it's incredible how powerful music is to change that. I really learned that when I was in [00:32:00] March 4th, marching band and our second gig ever in Portland. If you don't know March 4th, check them out. They've been around forever. And we played, there was a huge war going on, but we were part of this peace protest that marched through downtown.
And it was the largest peace protest to date with over 20, 000 people. It was just amazing to see. How much our music galvanized the crowd around us and gave people this energy. And we were like, Holy cow, this is amazing. And so that launched March 4th. And then we got hired by the world cup to go play in Germany later that year, because they wanted a group that represented the opposite of.
Mainstream American politics represented in the media. So they found March 4th Marching Band from Portland, Oregon, to come and play all these stages in front of hundreds of thousands of people. Wow. In the World Cup soccer competition in Berlin in Germany. And so we got up on stage and we would play and then we would speak about our perspective.
And it was so [00:33:00] refreshing when we'd have all these Germans coming up to us after the shows being like, Oh my gosh, you don't understand. We don't see this. We're only seeing Fox news over here. It's just crazy. It's so nice to see that there's people in America that we assumed that there was more sanity in America, but.
We didn't know, and it's great to see that. And your music just brings so much life to this message. And that really changed me as an artist. I was 24 years old, 24 from 25. And I just was like, okay, I need to commit to this and I want to help others. And so I started working in youth camps and I started a nonprofit called joy.
Now teenagers express themselves through art. And then I did the songwriter's soiree and it's just really see how much. Music does for people and it feels whether it's just the one song you're playing for your friend Or you write a song that becomes a hit. It's just so powerful
TAJ
Yeah, it makes me [00:34:00] think of that first word you have on the wall belonging, you know People are part of a movement maybe but until they start lending their voices it might be a huge crowd or it might be just hearing the song in passing you feel like Yeah, that's how I feel.
ROBIN
Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. I love your questions.
TAJ
Thank you. So that was part one of my conversation with Robin Jackson. We talked about creativity in terms of getting outside your comfort zone. And I want to invite you in your life right now to think about trying something new. You could start by imagining, what would it be?
What's something you've never tried before that you always had a secret desire to do? Might be a little tiny thing, it might be a huge thing. And as you think about what you would want to try, think about the words we talked about. Belonging, acceptance, permission. Give yourself permission to play and just try things out.
You might not stick with it forever, but you're gonna grow [00:35:00] as a person just from trying it out. Join me next time for the second half of my conversation with Robin Jackson, who I want to thank for the music that you heard at the beginning of the show. He wrote and performed it. Thanks, Robin, and thanks for listening to Playful Presence.