Taj talks with Robin Jackson, singer-songwriter and community organizer, about creative blocks and ways to move through them. The importance of pausing in creative process. How sometimes you have to break the rules, and working with your inner critic. And Robin graces us with some of his music.
Robin's website: RobinJackson.net
Songwriter Soiree: robinjackson.net/songwriter-soiree/
Taj's website: TajBaker.com
Taj talks with Robin Jackson, singer-songwriter and community organizer, about creative blocks and ways to move through them. The importance of pausing in creative process. How sometimes you have to break the rules, and working with your inner critic. And Robin graces us with some of his music.
Robin's website: RobinJackson.net
Songwriter Soiree: robinjackson.net/songwriter-soiree/
Taj's website: TajBaker.com
Taj: Welcome to Playful Presence, conversations about creativity, mindfulness, and play. I'm your host, Taj Baker. I'm an artist, meditator, and coach, and I've taught many workshops to help people discover their natural creativity. The idea behind this podcast is that these conversations with working creatives will give you tips and tricks and new perspectives to aid you in your creative journey and in your life in general. If you'd like to get my newsletter and receive even more resources, you can go to tajbaker. com.
My guest today is Robin Jackson, singer songwriter and creator of amazing community. We talk about creative blocks and ways to move through them, the importance of pausing in creative process.
How sometimes you have to break the rules and working with your inner critic and Robin graces us with some of his music. So I hope you enjoy part two of my conversation with Robin Jackson.
Taj: So how about creative blocks? Are there ways that you work with them?
Robin: Oh my god. Oh, yeah I actually taught a webinar on this last year. Oh God, yeah how to get inspired when you're having a creative block so many ways gosh I mean we all Experience created blocks. Writer's block. You really have to accept it as part of the process.
I think if you're going in just being like, there's not going to be any blood, I can't do this without just pure flow, forget it. There's definitely ways, you know, whether that's doing yoga, getting in your body, doing exercise. I'll change locations, like if I'm just stuck literally in a physical space.
Shaking, I like shaking my body a lot. Free writes, free writing, yeah, kind of like the artist's way. Just doing the pen to paper, and just letting your editor take a break, and just seeing what comes out. So that you're giving yourself a moment of permission to flow. And then something may come out of that, or you might just throw it in the garbage.
Taj: Yeah, you might just do that as a way to clear the cobwebs in your head so that you're ready. Yeah.
Robin: Right. One thing I like doing is actually redefining the block. Like, especially for writer's block, we consider this thing that's sort of outside of ourselves. And my friend, Matt Meehan really talks about this.
Who's one of our songwriting teachers at the retreat. Instead of saying, I have a block, say I'm afraid to write or I'm afraid to create. Take agency over how you talk about it. It's not a block. It's not a thing that's stopping you. You're afraid. You're judging yourself. That perfectionism can really just be brutal.
So I also think lowering your standards is helpful. Again, perfectionism kind of prevents us from writing and finishing things. Intentionally write something terrible or create something terrible or sing something terrible. And so Just like do it bad, you know, I, I was watching an interview once with Paul McCartney and he was like, for every song I have recorded, I have 20 that have not been recorded.
And that blew my mind because that guy has written a lot of hits and I'm like, what are those songs? I want to hear them. Yeah.
Taj: You know, before Blackbird there was Pigeon.
Robin: (laughing) Yeah! Ground squirrel.
Taj: Yeah, I would actually take that one step further. You know, you could actually say instead of I'm afraid to write or I'm afraid to create There's something in me that's afraid to write or create and then you could actually write a little lullaby to that part of you That's afraid. Yeah,
Robin: gosh I love it
Taj:And I would say about the bad first draft or the bad painting or drawing or song write a lot of them Not just one but just write every day because you might find that there's some gems in there.
Robin: get in motion. Yeah.
Taj: And if you're not able to do that, just think about it as getting ready. Instead of thinking I have a block. I'm getting ready to do this thing. Yeah. And then, you know, what are the things that would create the space, inspiration, fill the well, you know?
Robin: Fill the well. One of the things I love is like trying to get your unconscious to drive the ship. Some of my greatest moments come when I'm like, Oh, I need a break. And I'm standing up from my desk to go get a snack. And I'm kind of in a transition moment. The space will open up and it's like one second and the lyric will come in.
When I'm not trying. Or if I'm sitting down. And I can just, Oh, write the first part quickly before my mind finds out what's happening and tries to judge it. Um, Ernest Hemingway has this great quote, write while drunk, edit while sober. And yeah, the more you can let your unconscious get the ball rolling, your daydreaming.
Taj: Yeah, that touches into another question, which I have is about pausing about the role of pause in creative work.
Robin: Uh huh
Taj: For me taking a walk in nature helps a lot. It might be a short pause It might be a pause, but you know a break from the work your unconscious has a chance to work on it Maybe yeah, you know go to sleep and let your dreams work on it
Robin: Yep. Pause is great when you work on something and you're like, Oh, then it feels kind of tight. Then you come back the next day and you can approach it differently. Feels more space around it.
Taj: Yeah. Yeah. And also break the rules. Like if you were to write down, let's say five rules about songwriting and then say, okay, how could I break that rule?
Robin: Love that idea. Right. Yeah. Like write a really long verse, write something in a weird meter, slow down. Don't even have a chorus. I don't know. A song in gibberish. Song in gibberish. Exactly. Yep. Make up a new language. Make up a new language. And don't be afraid to be inspired by other people. Yeah. I actually have a songwriting workshop I teach called song theft, which is just being really straight up.
Like we all. Borrow, get inspired from others. It's like Stravinsky quote, Great artists do not imitate, they steal. So don't be afraid to go and look at a painting and try and paint a painting like that. But then maybe turn it upside down. Yeah. And then finish it. So that it becomes yours, you know.
Taj: So let's talk about the inner critic.
Robin: Ooh, okay.
Taj: I'm sure you're familiar.
Robin: I am a little too familiar. Yeah. Yeah.
Taj: So how do you work with your critic?
Robin: I've struggled since high school with this writing papers in English. I just remember wanting every sentence I write down the first time to be the one that it's going to stay. So I'm writing the last draft on the first draft and I really had to have a talk with my inner critic.
This is a process. So yeah, it's a constant dance. I have to give myself permission a lot. To not be perfect and to mess up the flow. So that might look like, Okay, I get a chord progression. I don't have the lyrics. I'm going to sing gibberish over it until the lyrics come. I'm not going to judge myself for not feeling what the song's about.
I'm going to just trust that that's going to happen. Or I'm going to write a lyric and, and right away my mind might label it cheesy, which I've done many, many, many times. And then later, once I've gotten approval from somebody else that it's not cheesy, then I feel okay about it. So then I've had to remind myself, Hey, let's just not put a judgment on this.
Yeah. It's really helpful to, it's funny. You're making me think so at the Northwest songwriters where I retreat, Matt Meehan teaches a workshop called taming your inner critic and I've never taken it and I'm going to take it this January, but I know Matt has people actually do theater. Yeah. With their critic and talk as their critic and then overdo it to like take the power out of the critic
Taj: I do in the workshop that I teach on it.
Robin: Oh cool. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that's cool You do it you do a similar workshop. Yeah, that's awesome.
Taj: I think there's two different modes of criticism There's the constructive helpful, you know when you're trying to improve something which is after that initial flow of creativity It's not really appropriate when it's just Coming out and you need to let it flow.
Also the inner critic part, that's just sort of more of a scared kid. Part of us that's afraid of getting too big or failing. And that part, the image that I use for that is. a kid with a monster mask on. Uh huh.
Robin: Totally. I love that metaphor.
Taj: You know, there's this kid who's like, nobody's going to listen to me, so I have to look really scary and big.
But actually, I just don't want you to do anything that's going to take a risk. You know, and that part just needs love and to know it's safe.
Robin: And safe to take risks. If you can create that space for people to mess up and that's what we did at the soiree is like the monthly events and retreat big time.
It's amazing how powerful it is when you give everyone a space to, to whatever happens is okay. How people relax and can actually then express their genius once the pressure is off.
Taj: And for me, that's where mindfulness comes in, you know, when I meditate before I make art or when I with a group get the group doing what I call interpersonal meditation, where we're all doing this together, then there's this container that's creative, that's really powerful for people to take risks.
Robin: Yeah, beautiful.
Taj: Is mindfulness something that comes into your process?
Robin: I noticed if I do yoga and move my body and spend time being present, then it's much easier for me to get in a zone. With writing,
Taj: that's mindfulness right there. That's definitely a mindfulness practice.
Taj: Now we're going to take a very short break for me to tell you a little bit about coaching. People often want some kind of a change in their lives. Maybe you're wanting to start a creative journey or you're a creative who's blocked or needing a new direction. Imagine that there's all these different parts inside of you with different desires and wants.
And some of these parts. are completely on board with moving toward change, and maybe one or more of them isn't quite so sure. It's like when I used to be uncomfortable putting my face in the water when I would go swimming. I would just do the backstroke or the sidestroke. I was finding workarounds so that I wouldn't have to face my discomfort.
But avoiding that discomfort kept me limited, in terms of what I was able to experience and do. And that's no way to live. I'll never forget the first time I went snorkeling. So not only was I able to put my face in the water and still breathe, but I suddenly saw all the beauty under the ocean surface, and it was such a revelation.
I went from feeling tense when I would swim, to feeling totally relaxed and supported by the water. It was like I was flying. That's how I see coaching. We address the part of you that has ambivalence or reluctance to move forward. And once we really get to know what will help that part to feel safe and heard.
And on board with your dreams and your aspirations, it's amazing how things just begin to flow and become easier. And going back to that ocean metaphor, what opens up when you let go of that fear is your creative voice, your unique point of view, your authentic self. And that is as beautiful and magical as The ocean sea life that I saw for the first time when I tried that snorkel mask.
A beautiful world opens up when you let go of a fear and suddenly you have the tools you need to move forward with a goal. You're no longer moving toward your goal as if you were driving with one foot on the gas and one on the brake. Instead, there's flow and ease around it. Although there's going to be moments that are challenging where you have to do some hard work, there has to be fun and play and creativity.
As part of the process, or else, for me at least, it's just not going to happen. So if you'd like to explore further and see if you and I would be a good fit for coaching, I would like to offer you a free coaching session. So you can go to TajBaker. com to book your free session. Now let's get back to the conversation.
Taj: So what advice would you give somebody who wants to try songwriting?
Robin: Be brave. Definitely. It takes courage. Yeah, be willing to dip your toes in. I just remember when I first started, it felt like the sacred thing that had so much power to it. And I wanted it to be powerful right off the moment. And I'd say one piece of advice I could say is really allow it to be simple and small.
If it's one chord and a few words, that's beautiful. That's a great starting place. Some of the most famous songs are like Two chords. Or just the same chords over and over again, you know. And so you don't need to create a giant thing right off the bat. Pull the thread and allow yourself to go one step at a time.
Taj: I've heard you say a few things as we've been talking. One being having a little voice recorder on your phone, capturing those things. And another one is being willing to write something bad. You know, just write something.
Robin: Which is bad is subjective, but yeah, it's more practical things. Just if you have a block and you're not writing, just write anything.
And so the cure for not writing is writing, right? Riff off a chord progression, just get something flowing and yeah, use your voice recorder, most famous artists. Use their voice recorders relentlessly. And it's gold. A lot of people get great ideas, but they don't record them. And then they're like, Oh, I'll remember that.
And it's gone. It's like a dream. It's gone. So definitely do that. Yeah. If you're really stuck, use someone else's beginning, go listen to a song or read someone's lyrics. Yeah.
Taj: So have you ever heard the story that Elizabeth Gilbert tells about? I think it's Tom Waits. He was driving down the freeway one day and this song starts to come through.
Okay. He's like, hey, I'm driving Go bother Leonard Cohen.
Robin: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that story Totally
Taj: This idea that we are the conduits. We aren't the originators of the art, but that we are having something come through us Yes
Robin: Yes. And Rick Rubin talks about that too. We can really get our egos involved in it.
He talks about, it's a similar thing, like songs want to come through. They're like spirits. Oh, I just love this. I love this. Like when I got this concept, it's as a creative, your job is not to write the song. Your job is to create the most inviting environment for the song to arrive and come through.
Taj: Hmm.
Yeah, that's just like that Rumi poem. Yeah, about it's not your job to find love-- to love, but to remove the blocks, remove the blocks to love because
Robin: yeah,actually, exactly. So just like, create this space, do we need to block off time to do a free write? You know, because if you don't make the space for it, they're gonna find their way through somebody else.
Taj:
Yeah, even to just take a notebook and write on the cover songs or song ideas. That's a big step just to have that space there for the ideas land. And it doesn't even have to be words in there. It could be that you cut out things that inspire you and paste them in there and then just start getting stuff from that, you know?
Robin: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Anything. Just get the content flowing. So I often start with two or three songs that I love from other artists. I'll just play them for a week. And then I'll stop and then something will come through in the style of one of those songs, but not like a rip. I was reading an interview with Brian Wilson from the Beach Boys.
He's like, man, the minute I listened to Rubber Soul from the Beatles, I wrote God Only Knows. God only knows what I'd do without you. That song is completely because of Rubber soul. Wow. He said, I would not have written that song, which is one of the most famous songs out there. If I hadn't listened to rubber soul and I felt this healthy competition of like, Oh, I want to write a song like.
The vibe of that album. Wow. And then he wrote it the next week and I was just like, exactly, go listen to a record, you know, go look at a bunch of paintings and just be like, cool, I'm going to do one that has the element of that texture and that color thing and like, blah, blah, blah. So I'm a big fan of that.
Taj: So outside of all this stuff that you're doing, the songwriting, the soiree, all of this, is there any way that you're weaving creativity into your life that's. Unconventional or unexpected.
Robin: Ooh, that's a Complex question. Ooh, I like that outside of all those things. I like to just think of myself as a pretty eccentric person and I'm always challenging myself to think outside the box and maybe mix up things or like bringing people a little out of their comfort zone.
And I'm inspired by other people who I admire who are like that. I want to be the antithesis of like normal person living in a suburban house stereotype. But one of my friends gave me the best. Compliment of my life, which was, you're the opposite of jaded.
Taj: So what word would be the opposite of jaded?
Robin: Like, yeah, wonder, enlivened, bedazzled, um, delighted, you know?
Taj: Okay, there's a song assignment for you, Robin. I want you to write a song about, the title could be the opposite of jaded. I love that. So tell me about, uh, you, you've touched on it earlier, but there are some things coming up that you wanted to talk about.
Robin: Thanks. So, yeah, so I run these monthly events, the songwriter's foray, which is our monthly songwriting open mic space, which is this incredible community of people, a supportive space for people to share songs or poems, um, in kind of a living room style environment. And when's the December one? The December one is December 14th, Thursday, December 14th, and you can find out about that on our website songwritersoiree.com And then we have these two big amazing deep dive Songwriter Soiree retreats every year which are four or five day Creativity retreats for anyone really you don't have to be a songwriter to attend You can just be somebody who wants to Get more in touch with your creative expression, or you want to be more connected, or you want to get out of your comfort zone in some way, we won't force you to do anything.
And that's just a place for people to come together and experience a deep dive in creativity through workshops, through working with artists and amazing teachers, great food and inspired in a stunning nature setting. And that one is coming up January the 18th. Uh, Rockaway beach on the Oregon coasts. I had a really beautiful retreat center there.
So you can also find out about that at songwriterstory. com slash retreat.
Taj: Wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. So I was wondering if I could, uh, prevail upon you to sing one more song before we say goodbye.
Robin: Okay. Okay. So this is a song I wrote called weather vane. And I wrote this when I was experiencing some heartbreak and it wasn't just romantic, although it was inspired by that originally.
I sometimes felt like I was just spun around a lot in different directions, like open and close, and I would feel really open hearted one moment in love or passionate about something, and then I'd get closed, and I just had this image of my heart spinning around in the wind. So, uh, it's called Weather Be.
(Singing)Took My Heart to The five and dime
said I won't be this four times. I'm not sure. Kind of it'll, it's been through lots. Kind said now, sun Kind done. I keep it safe while you.
What you can cannot sell.
Sometimes crazy when it lifts you up, then breaks you and parts around, like just the, I think I.
I figured this all out, the years gone by but I can't count, So many times that love's gone south. Was my guitar out of tune? Were there clouds over the moon? Maybe I just missed my cue, The day you said, I do.
Sometimes love's a crazy wind Lifts you up then breaks you in My heart's spinning round like a weathervane You just wanna get out Wanna get out of the rain
Aphrodite, what is your secret? We're finding love and how to keep it. For I knew a lady with eyes like the earth. She put stars in my chest, I knew what she was worth. If you see her, tell her in time. I left her a gift and it's down at the dime. It's for her alone and nobody else. Sitting up there on the shelf, nobody else.
Sometimes it lifts you up, you hearts.
Taj: Wonderful, Robin. It's so great to hear about your process and then get to listen to an example. So when do you think the record is coming out?
Robin: Ask that question to any artist, you'll get a hilarious answer. We are finishing up the vocals right now, and then it'll probably be a few months. My goal is to get it out in the summer, early summer.
Yeah, and it's long overdue.
Taj: In the meantime, you have two previous, right?
Robin: I have two full length albums on all the platforms and you can check those out robinjackson. net or on Spotify of course. I'll probably be putting some singles out in a few months and I'm really excited. It's been six years since I've written my last one and I just have some amazing players on this album, some amazing guests.
Taj: I'm really looking forward to hearing it and thank you for the preview.
Robin: Thank you for hosting the space for me to come in and share and to create and yeah, foster creativity in others.
Taj: Thank you, Robin.
Robin: Absolutely. It's been a pleasure.
Taj: We've come to the end of this episode of Playful Presence. I want to thank my guest, Robin Jackson, who also wrote and performed the theme music that you hear at the beginning of the show. Thanks, Robin. Next time you are starting a creative project, think about starting simple, starting anywhere. Start Anywhere is an improv concept that has really served me well in my creative practice.
You might want to write the next great song, or the great American novel, or create a wonderful painting. But starting with simplicity and ease, and allowing yourself to play, really opens the door for the unexpected to come through. If you're interested in signing up for my newsletter, go to tajbaker. com.
And thanks again for listening to Playful Presence.