#38 - From Battlefield to Guiding Jaguar Hunts in Old Mexico: A Veteran's Tale w/ George Pavey

Join us on an enthralling journey as we sit down with George, a 90-year-old veteran whose stories span across decades, from the battlefields of Europe to the rugged terrain of Mexico. George's narrative is not just a recount of history but a personal exploration of family legacy and sacrifice. We hear about his brother Paul, a 5th Ranger whose bravery at Pointe du Hoc left an indelible mark on his family, and his brother Robert, an early member of the Green Berets. George's own experiences in the 82nd Airborne and memories of jump school at Fort Bragg unfold with vivid detail, capturing the spirit of camaraderie and courage.

The conversation takes a thrilling turn as George recounts his adventures hunting jaguars and bear in Old Mexico alongside legendary houndsmen like Dale Lee. With stories set against the untamed wilderness, listeners can almost feel the adrenaline of chasing jaguars through dense brush and tracking bears in the wild. These tales go beyond the hunt, exploring cultural and environmental changes over time and reflecting on the deep connection between man, dog, and nature.

As we wrap up, George shares insights into his life outside of hunting—touching on love, marriage, and the lessons learned across six decades. The episode paints a rich tapestry of a life lived with gusto, highlighting the evolution of hunting culture and the balance between tradition and modern challenges. With humor, heart, and a touch of nostalgia, George's stories offer a captivating blend of personal history, thrilling escapades, and the enduring human spirit.

Chapters

• 0:08 War Stories With George
• 8:41 Uncovering the Truth About Paul
• 12:31 Military Service in Indiana
• 19:21 Jump School Memories in Fort Bragg
• 32:22 Jaguar Hunt in Old Mexico
• 47:51 Jaguar Hunting Adventures in Mexico
• 54:41 Jaguar Hunting in the Swamp
• 1:08:47 Jaguar and Mountain Lion Hunting
• 1:22:32 Bear Hunting Stories With Ransom
• 1:31:02 Bear Hunting Stories With Dale
• 1:38:59 Jaguar Hunting Adventures in Mexico
• 1:48:11 Jaguar Hunting Stories With Dale
• 2:06:18 Marriage Secrets Over 60 Years
• 2:10:24 Hunting Stories and Environmental Changes
• 2:21:48 Life and Work Across States
• 2:30:49 Bear Baiting Adventures With Tyler
• 2:41:41 Jaguar Hunting Adventure in Mexico
• 2:52:01 Extreme Mountain Lion Hunting Expedition
• 2:58:53 Dog Training Techniques and Relationships

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

I'm excited for this one. I've heard a lot of good things what do you do with them?

Speaker 1: 0:13

we just push them out on all like social media and youtube channels and that way, the whole point of this podcast is to sit down. Here's a water for you too. I don't know if you want a water at any point. The whole point of this is to just get people's stories and you know, everybody's got a wild chaos story at some point in their life. I sit down with a lot of veterans, a lot of law enforcement, and just get people's stories and then we get to document them and then we put them out for people to be able to listen to and we get a lot of really good feedback as far as just people's lives and what goes on in them and people being able to connect with them, and especially in the outdoor world or the veteran community, law enforcement, blue collar guys it's your everyday workers. It's a really good thing, and so we started it this year and, um, yeah, it's going really well great and.

Speaker 1: 1:02

And then obviously Ransom, I was like man, you've got to sit down with Paige's grandpa, he's got some crazy stories and so, yeah, so it's just honestly, it's just you and I having a conversation. I know we just met, but yeah, I want to hear any wild, crazy stories, from childhood to hunting jaguars down in the swamps of Mexico.

Speaker 2: 1:21

I can do that.

Speaker 1: 1:22

Perfect swamps of mexico. I can do that. Perfect, we're gonna. So, chris, are you good? You're good kid, all right. So, george, I'm gonna give you a little intro and I want you to correct me if I'm wrong on anything but kind of a little mini bio about yourself, because I'm really excited and it's an absolute honor to be able to sit down with you. Um, so you were born in 1934 in anderson, indiana, correct? Um? You just celebrated your 90th birthday, that's right. Congratulations to that. You served as a corporal in the 82nd Airborne, true? What year was that?

Speaker 2: 1:52

53.

Speaker 1: 1:53

53. So 1953, you were 82nd Airborne. You served for three years in the military correct. Two years, two years, and you were one of three brothers that served in the US military Correct, and you had an of three brothers that served in the US military Correct, and you had an older brother, robert E, and it's Pave correct.

Speaker 2: 2:10

Yes, he was next to me, and then my older brother was named Paul.

Speaker 1: 2:14

So when Paul was in the Fifth Rangers Right and he stormed the beaches of Pointe du Hoc, correct, that's correct, which is a very important position during, obviously, storming the beaches. Well, first let's back up to your second. You had a first lieutenant, that was Robert, and he served in the 82nd Airborne during Germany.

Speaker 2: 2:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:37

Okay, and then your oldest brother, which would be Paul. He was a 5th Ranger and he was killed during the invasion of France, and that was at Pointe du Hoc, yeah, which was a pretty important strategic position during when we were storming the beaches, because that was one of the highest points, correct?

Speaker 2: 2:54

Right and one of the main reasons why they were there, the 5th Rangers. Well, there was, I think, three companies of Rangers on that raid and when it started out, the generals knew that the Germans had three large guns on top of that.

Speaker 1: 3:15

The artillery.

Speaker 2: 3:17

And they could shoot 12 miles out to sea, besides cover all the beaches. So they knew they had to knock those guns out. So they made the ranger unit up, they started them out and over a period probably of a year they did nothing but take men in and call men out until they had what they wanted to store in those beaches and so that point separated omaha and utah, I believe correct right which ended up being pretty much the landing points for everything after they took the point yeah, I mean so?

Speaker 2: 3:58

they were. My brother's company was supposed to land a half hour after Sea Company climbed the bluff. Okay. And their job was to go up on top of the plateau and work their way down to the top of Pointe du Hoc, in case the boys that were coming up the cliffs didn't get the job done or needed help.

Speaker 1: 4:22

And you're talking sheer cliffs on that beach. I mean they were like 35, 36 meter tall and these I mean can you imagine? I mean obviously you can, but you know your brother served during that time but it's so hard for us to fathom. I'm sure you know, like our generation, of more of an urban environment versus landing on a beach with sheer cliffs and you have the one, cross that distance of beach and then somehow work your way up these cliffs under machine gun fire and artillery fire yeah, and I.

Speaker 2: 4:52

I had a good friend that was over point do Hawk on a trip just this year and he was on a tour of the grounds and they were walking and they stopped at this particular point on the trail and there were seven plaques, about 18 inches by maybe 10 inches high plaques, and he happened to notice my last name on a plaque and the plaques had pictures of the soldier that they were talking about, and then just gave a little bit about him and so he texted me and he said George, was your brother's name, paul? And I said yeah, and he well, there's a plaque here with him on this plaque. So then we started thinking about why and how did he happen to be the one that was on a plaque out of 3,000 men? Were they picked at random or just a coincidence?

Speaker 1: 6:02

So you didn't know this until this year.

Speaker 2: 6:03

Didn't know that until this year, and Marie and I had been there, but we didn't walk that particular trail. So I've been in the process of different people trying to find out why and how his picture's on those plaques.

Speaker 1: 6:21

Oh, so you still don't know, still don't know, was there just the seven?

Speaker 2: 6:23

Were they all?

Speaker 1: 6:23

rangers on those plaques? Oh, so you still don't know. Still don't know Was it. Was there just the seven? Were they all Rangers on those plaques? Yeah, okay, so it was from the 5th Ranger Battalion or Regiment that was there. Yeah, so maybe that's who we should probably look at contacting, and maybe they have the history of that.

Speaker 2: 6:39

Well, it's a mystery, I don't know just how to find that out. It's a mystery, I don't know just how to find that out. I have this book that my friend was over there and discovered that plaque. I have a book that he found for me and it's written by my brother's commanding officer, who was a lieutenant at that time, and it's really pretty neat, uh, there were 72 men in his company when they stormed that hill, and of rangers yeah, the rangers and when they got to the top.

Speaker 2: 7:25

My brother was one of 26 that made it to the top.

Speaker 1: 7:27

Out of 72 Rangers, 26 made it.

Speaker 2: 7:29

Yeah, and then that 26 men that landed that day had to crawl the whole time they were on that mountain trying to get down to Pointe du Hoc and trying to get down to point to Hawk, and they had to crawl because of machine gun fire and they had to take their packs off because the bullets were hitting their packs. That was how low they had to get on the ground.

Speaker 1: 7:57

So they didn't come from the beach, they flanked it, right, okay.

Speaker 2: 8:01

The beach was to their right and they landed, flanked it right. Okay, the beach was to their right and they landed. Uh, when they were coming in, they were supposed to land at a particular place and the commanding officer of uh, of the fifth rangers, could see what was happening on the beaches to the other boys.

Speaker 1: 8:22

So he said chopped down at that.

Speaker 2: 8:24

He said we're not going to land right there, we'll go down, we'll go a little farther down the beach, which they did. Uh, still didn't help a lot, but it helped how long?

Speaker 1: 8:35

so your brother obviously made it off the beach. Do you know how long he was? Did he make it to the point?

Speaker 2: 8:41

they, uh, they crawled all night toward the point and they were in a counter. What were they?

Speaker 2: 8:49

counteroffensive, you might say the Germans put on and so they fought all night and then the next morning and I don't have the exact time but in the book it tells about the commander wanted to find out where the rest of the men were, because he didn't know for sure. So he sent my brother and I don't know how many men, but I know there was one fellow and then my brother and they had to make their way across an opening that was maybe 60, 70 feet wide without any cover, and the first guy made it across and the second guy, which was my brother, Paul, he was hit in the chest with a machine gun fire and killed him there the next day and it tells this in the book.

Speaker 2: 9:48

But the guy that did this book ended up being a general after the war and everything that he put in this book is so detailed and when he talks about these men, these 26 men that made it to the top, every time he refers to the men he drew a little map in the book. Okay.

Speaker 1: 10:10

And he actually has 26 dots where the men were Moving as they were crawling on Really.

Speaker 2: 10:16

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:18

So he documented it pretty well.

Speaker 2: 10:20

Yeah, really well.

Speaker 1: 10:21

And so did you hear these stories. How old were you when your brother was over there serving Because you're the youngest of the three? Yeah, really well. And so did you hear these stories. How old were you when your brother was over there serving Because you're the youngest of the three?

Speaker 2: 10:28

Yeah, I was only 10.

Speaker 1: 10:30

So did you hear these stories during that time, or did you have to find the book and get the details then?

Speaker 2: 10:38

As far as my brother's death, my mom didn't ever want to talk about you, never talked about my brother paul no and I asked her one time. I said where's didn't paul have some medals? At least he would have had a purple heart? And she said uh, I threw him in the waste paper, can? Uh? She said I didn't want nothing to do with it.

Speaker 1: 11:05

I can imagine that being pretty rough for a mom.

Speaker 2: 11:07

Yeah, so I as far as Paul went, I only knew that he was killed the night before and he was wounded and alive for two days, and that was not true. I I thought that all the all through the years okay, but I found out just this year that isn't really what happened so you found all the truth out this year this year wow, and how.

Speaker 1: 11:41

How off was? I mean, obviously you've lived your whole life thinking one thing how off were the stories from what you were told? I mean, obviously you were told he was wounded. Were there other details that you had no idea of?

Speaker 2: 11:52

No, I have the telegrams that the War Department sent to Mom.

Speaker 1: 11:57

Really.

Speaker 2: 11:58

That he was shot one day, wounded and died the next day.

Speaker 1: 12:03

And that's what you guys lived your life off of all those years.

Speaker 2: 12:05

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:06

I mean, obviously, you know, war then is much different than it is now. I mean we even still. I mean there's guys that their wives get called, their mothers get called on our battlefields. But I can only imagine the telephone game and just getting word back. I mean there's probably hundreds of families that never even knew anything. I mean those guys were just getting obliterated on the beach.

Speaker 1: 12:29

So, you're 10 years old, so you're, you're. So that was your older brother and then your younger brother. And this how? What was the age gap difference between those two?

Speaker 2: 12:41

I'm going to say maybe two years.

Speaker 1: 12:43

So he was right behind him.

Speaker 2: 12:45

Yeah, okay, and he was. This would have been my brother, robert.

Speaker 1: 12:52

Robert yep.

Speaker 2: 12:53

And I think I'm not for sure, but I think Rod, as we called him, he probably went in like oh, I'm going to guess, maybe 49, 48, 49. Okay, Somewhere like that. And then he spent 22 years in the service and he went. He joined the 82nd when he first went in and then he was in airborne troops the rest of the time that he was in and he joined when the first berets green berets came out. He joined that.

Speaker 1: 13:37

Really so he was in the first actual green berets.

Speaker 2: 13:40

Yeah, supposedly the first 300. And then from there he kept working his way up and by the time he retired he had held every rank, from private to major.

Speaker 1: 13:58

when he retired, no kidding.

Speaker 2: 13:59

And he went from I don't know just when he joined the Spatial Forces. Okay. But he retired a major out of the Spatial Forces. And how many years younger than I think. He would have been, maybe six to seven years older than me.

Speaker 1: 14:24

How old were they when they were joining? Because back then, I mean, they were just children.

Speaker 2: 14:29

I know Paul joined and he was killed when he was 18. Okay. Can you imagine doing that at 17, 18 years old, being out there in those PT boats? I mean, there's kids that are probably younger than that. Yeah, A lot of them ride and see all that going on.

Speaker 1: 14:45

That's when men were men. There's been a lot of changes from your generation to ours. I can tell you that much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:52

Anyway, so both of them served well so he stormed France or he was in Germany.

Speaker 1: 15:01

Did he get any field promotions? I mean, obviously there was a lot going on during his time. Do you know of anything like that, or did he just earn every one of them over time and grade?

Speaker 2: 15:09

I don't know that to be sure, okay, but I know that at the time that he joined the Spatial Forces, you had to be able to speak two foreign languages. Really. And he spoke fluently. And he spoke fluently German and Italian. So that no. German and Russian. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1: 15:30

Where did he learn Russian? I mean growing up, I mean you guys were all obviously in.

Speaker 2: 15:35

Indiana. Well, that was when he was in the service.

Speaker 1: 15:37

Oh, so he learned it while he was in? Yeah, and then he was able to transfer over to Special Forces yeah, got it, and so then you come along.

Speaker 2: 15:45

Yeah, I came along, so I thought I better join something you know.

Speaker 1: 15:54

No Marines for you. So how old were?

Speaker 2: 15:57

you. When you decided to join, I must have been 19. Okay.

Speaker 1: 16:03

I would say yeah. So what was it like growing up in Indiana at that time?

Speaker 2: 16:09

It was I would say, pretty nice, looking at what you're doing today. Yeah, how so. Well, I grew up without TV. You know, when I seen the first TV, I was probably 16, 17 years old. Yeah. But where I grew up, there wasn't anything in the way of hunting. We did a lot of fishing, okay, and hunting consisted of birds and rabbits. There wasn't any deer back there then.

Speaker 1: 16:41

Really no, so I mean, it was not even an option no so then you grew. I mean, you grew up on a farm, or was it kind of in a town uh, it was in town.

Speaker 2: 16:51

We lived kind of out on the edge of town.

Speaker 1: 16:53

Okay, I could be fishing in 10 minutes, that's now, and so, as far as your father um, obviously having two sons ahead of them and then you come along, I mean, is that, was that something? Did your dad push for you guys to go, or was it just a calling that all the boys just did on their own?

Speaker 2: 17:10

I don't know about Paul and Rod. I know I did it on my own.

Speaker 1: 17:15

And when that time came, what made you want to join?

Speaker 2: 17:20

Seemed like I needed to do something.

Speaker 1: 17:22

Yeah, Sit around town wasn't doing it for you. Yeah, and so you ended up joining and going to 82nd Airborne. Did you want to go to 82nd, or was this?

Speaker 2: 17:33

That's where I was sent. I wanted Airborne Okay. So we didn't have a choice about which division we went to. Okay, the 101st or the 82nd?

Speaker 1: 17:44

What was training like back then?

Speaker 2: 17:49

I'm sure it was a lot different than today. You know the guy that we were all standing in formation. I'll never forget. We were in t-shirts, iron fatigue, pants, starch, and we wore our metal helmets, the old pots that had the chin strap, and that was your daily dress. So we're all standing in formation and they put numbers on your hat and they went by your number. They didn't know your, okay, and uh, they went by your number. They didn't know your name, they just went by that number so this was basic training.

Speaker 2: 18:30

Yeah, okay, it was jump school, okay, okay and uh, whenever you heard your number, you just automatically fell down and started doing puja, you know, and he just called numbers. Okay, you know. And he came walking out, stood in front of the group and he says turned around real stiff and tension, you know. And he says my name's Sergeant Bruce Sepp and I'm the meanest SOB in this post.

Speaker 1: 19:02

That's how he introduced himself. Did he live up to that? Yes, he did. Yeah, there was a. He would get right in this post. That's how he introduced himself. Did he live up to that? Yes, he did.

Speaker 2: 19:06

There was a. He would get right in your face, you know, and call you just about anything. He wanted to call you and tell you how worthless you were. Do you remember your?

Speaker 1: 19:18

helmet number 270. I was going to say no push up, yeah, no push up. I was going to say if you no push-ups, yeah, no push-ups. I was going to say if you had the meanest son of a gun in there, I'm sure he'd range your number in your head.

Speaker 2: 19:31

And there were a couple guys that well, there were three of the boys that decided that they were going to fight him, because he would tell you every day if anybody wants to meet me in a motor pool To do it, I'll be there.

Speaker 1: 19:45

Did they take him up on this? Yeah, how'd that go over? And they didn't look very good. Really, you weren't about to step up to that yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:56

Yeah, he did a number on them and that was it for that. Yeah. Kind of squared everybody away and, yeah, kind of forgot the idea it got to be fun before it was over. You know we were.

Speaker 1: 20:08

How long into it? I mean, obviously there's phases that you don't know during your training time. You know, obviously the first phase is always the worst, yeah, and then you get to where you're laughing about it and then you feel like a human again, you belong. You're not just a number 270 anymore or anything like that. How long was jump school and all that training to get you ready to go? Three weeks, that fast, really. As far as jumps. How were they training you and prepping you for jumps at that point?

Speaker 2: 20:41

Well, the PLF was was a parachute landing fall, okay, and you did that by jumping off a four-foot-high bench.

Speaker 1: 20:52

Knees together, feet together.

Speaker 2: 20:53

type of deal you jumped off of there and then did your roll, mm-hmm, and that was one of the main things you practiced. Over and over and over again Jumping, yeah, and that was one of the main things you practiced Over and over and over again, jumping, yeah, and I know that that still sticks with me because I fell a couple times and I've had people say, boy, you just rolled right out of that.

Speaker 1: 21:16

Really, because there's a science to it, oh yeah. So after you get prepped and they got everything ready to rock and roll and you're, I guess, qualified to start doing your first jump, what was your first actual jump like?

Speaker 2: 21:33

I remember I said to my buddy who was sleeping in a cot next to me we jumped out of the 119 boxcars I don't know if you knew what those were. They were the plane that had two I guess you'd call them fuselage that come down and then the body hung down underneath of it Okay yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:58

And God, they were a terrible airplane really, really. I mean, when you were told you were scheduled for a joke, the first thing you wanted to know was how long do I have to ride? Okay, you know, you just a rough life. Just get up, get out. Okay, but it was funny. You know, there's no insulation in these planes, none, it's just bare open. And uh, down each side there were canvas seats for 20 on each side, okay, and so there was 40 jumpers in the plane and, uh, they get down at the end of the runway and they start revving those engines up and you'd start bouncing, you, you know, and then they'd kick the brake off and everybody went Just squished to the back and you're trying to hold your feet up because it's vibrating so bad. And anyway, when they opened the doors, when we got up, and they opened the doors and you could see out by looking back, and I said to my buddy, I said what the hell have we done now?

Speaker 1: 23:08

So you went out the tail of the plane, not out the side. What's outside? Okay, okay, right at the back. Okay, yeah, and this is all static line, correct yeah?

Speaker 2: 23:16

And then you get the full prop blast.

Speaker 1: 23:18

Oh, so because the prop's in front of you.

Speaker 2: 23:20

And I never understood. We do 30-foot high jumps off of a tower. Okay, and there'd be a guy sitting down there that would grade you on going out the door, how you stood in the door after you jumped, how you put your hands on the reserve and keep your feet together, keep your eyes open. There's no way that you could keep your eyes open in a 140-mile block. It just don't happen, because you could feel your nose just flowing over the side of your face.

Speaker 1: 23:56

And it's a pretty violent, I would imagine back then. I mean, technology's changed some, I would imagine, with the static line jumps. But then I mean you, you guys are, I don't want to say pioneering it, but it's still fairly new, so it's not very comfortable. I mean, do you remember the harnesses and everything?

Speaker 2: 24:15

yeah, yeah it. Uh, of course you know you're all bundled up. You got a leg, you got a rifle strapped to your leg, so this leg's stiff, you know, and uh, if it's, if the wind's blowing and we had those big shoots you know if the wind's blowing that whole shoot above.

Speaker 2: 24:39

You would just come over and lay on the ground, you know, and still be full, and you're like this, you know, trying to stop, and when you get a break you've got to try to get up. You've got that leg with a rifle on it and you've got to run around and collapse one corner of the chute, to collapse the air.

Speaker 1: 25:02

So you couldn't unhook them then no, you're committed, you're committed, you're committed, yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:08

You're just trying to get her to stop.

Speaker 1: 25:09

So if you have a good ground win, I mean you're just going for a ride. Yeah, how often did you ever have that happen to you?

Speaker 2: 25:15

Once or twice yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:17

Pretty adventurous, I would imagine. Yeah, what was your first jump? Like I was it. Was it kind of scary or were you ready for it? I mean, you're young, you're a young guy at this point. I mean, were you looking forward to it? Or?

Speaker 2: 25:27

uh, you're, you're scared, okay you know. And then you got the. Uh, you're jumping with guys that have been used to jump at your kind of a mixed mixed bunch. So when you come out of that plane, if you're back past the 10th guy, you're actually running to the door to keep up with the guy.

Speaker 1: 25:48

Really, I mean, it takes you out of there just like that so there's no to the door, they grab it and then there's no pause, they're just as fast as you can go. So the last guy, he's a run he's in a run so he's diving out of that plane just about. Were you ever in the back, or were you pretty lucky to be in the front?

Speaker 2: 26:07

I don't think, I, I don't know, I don't remember.

Speaker 1: 26:11

You remember your first landing? Oh yeah, how was that?

Speaker 2: 26:14

Well, I was going to tell you, when you're all sitting around the 20 of you, and maybe there'll be half of the 40 men who are experienced jumpers Well, here you are, you're not experienced at all and you're sitting there and you've got guys coming by grabbing your backpack saying I don't look right. They say I think you're going to die this time.

Speaker 1: 26:40

You know well, hell time you get in a plane, you're Nerves are a little worked up Then you found out soon that they were just messing with you.

Speaker 2: 26:51

Yeah, yeah, you're going to die today.

Speaker 1: 26:56

That's comforting, right before you jump out of a plane. Yeah, I guess that's tradition, though. I mean, that's what makes the military the military, yeah, and the camaraderie and the bonding within units is just completely messing with each other 24-7.

Speaker 2: 27:11

Yeah, I've said, you do what your buddy does.

Speaker 1: 27:15

Yep. Ain't that the truth? You know, Yep, so after jump school, I mean, what were you off to then?

Speaker 2: 27:23

I spent the whole time right there at Fort Bragg. Really, the only way that I would have got out of Fort Bragg would have been if the whole division went. Okay. Because they called the 82nd. After the Second World War they named the 82nd Airborne the Guard of Honor for the United States. So they didn't go anywhere unless it was to do anything stateside?

Speaker 1: 27:54

Yeah, so after you read your time out in the military, you went back to Indiana.

Speaker 2: 28:00

Yeah, and then I had spent two years as an apprentice bricklayer. Okay. My father was a bricklayer and he was dad. I was a fifth generation bricklayer in my family Really. So when I got out of high school, there wasn't any doubt about what I was going to do for a living. I was going to lay brick you know, so anyway, I was working there in Indiana on a telephone building. It was colder than hell winter time. You know we didn't have the shoes or the clothes that they have now.

Speaker 2: 28:44

You know we didn't know what an insulated shoe was or anything he was wearing leather, leather boots yeah and uh, it was colder than hell and I thought I called the boss over and I said, uh, could you get my money? And he said, well, why do you want to quit? I said, well, I'm going to arizona just like that. And he said, well, why do you want to quit?

Speaker 1: 29:04

I said, well, I'm going to arizona, just like that, and he said when did you decide that?

Speaker 2: 29:08

and I said about 15 minutes ago, that was it what did your dad?

Speaker 1: 29:15

how'd your dad take that?

Speaker 2: 29:16

yeah, he, he just he didn't care. Well, I was a little I, I was a little rowdy. I can remember one time I drove up to the job and we always had a little shanty that we kept our tools in and changed our clothes. I come riding up to the front of that shanty and I was in the back end of a big convertible couple girls and I jumped out of that and run. It was the back end of a big convertible A couple girls and I jumped out of that and run in the shed, you know, just about time to go to work, and had dress clothes on and my dad was sitting there. I could still picture him. He had his hands like this and he looked up at me and he said You're never going to make it.

Speaker 1: 30:08

And I said yeah, I am, you watch. So you were the rebellious one of the group yeah, yeah, I probably was. So after that light bulb went off in your head that you were done with this freezing winter laying brick. How long until you picked up and headed south.

Speaker 2: 30:26

Well, I was gone the next day. Really that quick, huh yeah. And I hitchhiked. I didn't have a car, so I hitchhiked.

Speaker 1: 30:36

Just going to ask how you got from Indiana to Arizona.

Speaker 2: 30:39

And I was in, I think, st Louis, and some guy stopped, pulled over, stopped Louis, and some guy pulled over and stopped his car in front of me and got out and come back and he said how would you like to go to California, drive a car and pull a car behind you? And I thought, well, hell, california is a hell of a lot closer than St Louis, missouri. So I said, yeah, I'll do that. So I started driving that car, pulling one, following him really, and we got down in Texas or someplace, but it was colder in hell, and I started the car up, get warm. And he came back and got out of his car and walked back and he said I don't have the money for you to be running the car. I said, well, I was just trying to get warm. He said, well, I can't afford for you to run the car. I said, okay. So then I thought to myself I've almost fulfilled my obligation.

Speaker 1: 31:47

Pretty close, pretty close, close enough.

Speaker 2: 31:50

So when we got into Arizona and got in Flagstaff from Flagstaff, arizona to Tucson, arizona is a straight shot. So I flipped my lights on and off and pulled over and he come back and I started to get my bag out of the back seat and he said what are you doing? I said I'm quitting.

Speaker 1: 32:13

He said well, he says so you used him to get to the flagstaff and you just out at that point. Yeah, I just quit.

Speaker 2: 32:22

So I remember walking down the road in the mountains on black asphalt this is the first time being out there yeah and uh, all I had. I had a knife with me, so I'm walking down the highway with that knife out, because I've heard about these bears and lions and all that stuff and you can't hardly see your hand in front of your face.

Speaker 2: 32:50

But I got picked up and got a ride down to Tucson really yeah and that was it yeah then I I stayed, went to my sister's. I had a sister that lived there oh, okay, okay, so that helps.

Speaker 1: 33:02

Yeah, that you had family there.

Speaker 2: 33:05

And I have basic tools in this bag I've carried.

Speaker 1: 33:13

So then I went to work. What were you doing there? Did you pick up on bricklaying? Huh.

Speaker 2: 33:20

How long did you do that for down there? Well, let's see, I wasn't down there more than a year, I don't think, and I met. I was in between jobs and I always liked being around horses although.

Speaker 2: 33:36

I didn't know much about horses and so I went down to this big stables and rode horses a couple times and I met a guy there that I kind of started running around with. I was learning how to ride horses and do just about everything you had to do around them, and we were messing around one day and he said to me he says I want to take you over to a guy's house where you meet. And I said all right, so we went over to Dale Lee's house.

Speaker 1: 34:14

The legend.

Speaker 2: 34:15

And that's the first time that I met Dale. Okay. And Wayne, this fellow I was with. He had worked for Dale on the ladder ranch over in New Mexico and helped him hunt and run his dogs one year. That's how he knew.

Speaker 1: 34:33

Dale, because Dale's a legend houndsman, yeah, and so you're getting just tossed into this whole new world.

Speaker 2: 34:40

So I was just standing there, I met Dale and we were standing there talking and uh dale said to him uh, wayne, he said how'd you like to go to mexico with me for five months, hunt jaguar, help me with the dogs? And wayne said well, I'll go if you'll take george. Dale said you want to go? And I said yeah, I'll go.

Speaker 1: 35:05

Just like that. Yeah To go hunt jaguars. Yeah Down in Texas.

Speaker 2: 35:09

Yeah, old Mexico.

Speaker 1: 35:11

Old Mexico.

Speaker 2: 35:12

Thousand miles south.

Speaker 1: 35:14

So you just pack up with these guys, yeah, and off you go down to old Mexico to experience jaguar hunting. Yeah, alright, let's jump into this, because this doesn't happen anymore. These days are long gone. So you make the 1,000-mile trek down to old Mexico with a trailer full of horses and a bunch of hounds.

Speaker 2: 35:40

No animals.

Speaker 1: 35:41

No animals, no horses. So you just went down and loaded up the hounds in the box and off you went.

Speaker 2: 35:45

Yeah, we had about 20 hounds Okay.

Speaker 1: 35:50

That's a good pack.

Speaker 2: 35:51

We had a dog trailer and it was pulled by one pickup and then Dale and them pulled a pickup with two boats on that trailer. Okay. And that was it, and off you went and off you went. And off we went.

Speaker 1: 36:06

What the hell was that like?

Speaker 2: 36:10

I think it took us about three days to get to where we were going and we went first to the main town that we stopped at was called was named Tuxpan, Okay, T-U-X-P-A-N. And then from Tuxpan we went out toward the swamp through a little town named Pericos. Pericos and Pericos just had little huts and people had dirt floors.

Speaker 1: 36:43

Is this all a culture shock? I mean, you're from Indiana to Arizona and now you're in these little villages in Mexico.

Speaker 2: 36:51

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:53

What was that like? I mean, you're experiencing the culture, the foods, everything, yeah, yeah it became tortillas and beans for a while. I can imagine. But you know you don't think about it.

Speaker 2: 37:09

You're having a good time wondering what's going on. Learning. So we'd exercise the dogs from camp. Camp was this big body of water that we hunted around called the Awabrava, and the reason they called that that was because when the wind blew it would get really really rough and just roll and uh. Whenever you went across the awa brava you stopped when you first got out on it and looked to see if there, if there was any wind oh so, because it got pretty rough out there.

Speaker 2: 37:46

It got real rough and then I think it was the year before I joined up with Dale that the last hunt of the year they had a jaguar in the boat that they had got for the client and these boats were 16 foot long, no, 12 foot long. They were 12 foot long and about 4 foot wide, flat bottom, and that's what we hauled the dogs in one boat. Usually we'd always have those two boats the client and Dale, and one of us guys would be running the motor and then in the back boat there would be two natives with the dogs. Okay.

Speaker 2: 38:31

And anyway, we would set up a fly camp where we just we called it a fly camp where we just put up tarps over our kitchen area. We called it, and the kitchen area had the natives would make legs out of limbs and we had a top on a piece of masonite, I think it was. That was the kitchen table. There was no luxuries on this hunt, like you see. Oh yeah. You know there's. This is straight rugged, this is rugged. And then we had the sleeping area with cots and mosquito nets.

Speaker 1: 39:14

How remote were you guys when you were on this lake. I mean, what year is this?

Speaker 2: 39:21

This is. I got down there in the winter of 58.

Speaker 1: 39:24

So I mean, you could be days from anything pretty much uh, well, it was well.

Speaker 2: 39:32

There was pericos, which was only about three or four miles.

Speaker 1: 39:35

Oh, okay, the big town was probably 20 miles oh okay, so you're not super remote, but you're enough. You get caught out on that lake, though you're done yeah did you guys ever experience anything pretty rough?

Speaker 2: 39:47

I did, yeah, I did experience how was that, uh, we had set up a camp way out in the swamp and I went to what we called main camp to get supplies and take back to our fly camp and, uh, so I had the boat loaded and I was coming back and I looked out on the lake and it looked pretty calm. So I started across and the wind came up. I don't know how high the waves got, but I knew that I would go up and then I'd just come down and say, bam, On that flat bottom boat.

Speaker 2: 40:30

And the waves when I had bam, the waves were up here, you know.

Speaker 1: 40:37

So you guys are crossing like the center of the. I mean you're crossing the lake. You're not just like kitty-crawling to go to your camp. So you're crossing the lake, You're not just like Kitty Corbin to go to your camp.

Speaker 2: 40:44

So you're crossing the lake. Crossing the lake, okay, I had to go down at the other end. Okay.

Speaker 2: 40:48

And about halfway there was a point that came out from the other side of the swamp, that came out into the lake, maybe halfway, and I thought if I can make it to that point then I'll just stay right there all night the storm quits, and so I had two 15 horse heaven roofs okay, I had both of them running and I was facing them, you know so you're individually steering both of them. They're not connected okay, and the goddamn vomit hits the bag.

Speaker 1: 41:27

And you're facing technically backwards, trying to look over your shoulder, steering this boat.

Speaker 2: 41:31

Finally I made it to this point and so I tied up the boat and there had at one time been some pretty good trees because there was some stumps that was like this. So I got on one of them stumps and I sat there till daylight. Really. Till the storm quit.

Speaker 1: 41:55

You mean you had one of those stumps out in the water? Yeah, you sat on a stump in the water all night, yeah yeah, how was that?

Speaker 2: 42:01

Well, it wasn't the best of combinations, but anyway, that had to have been miserable. Yeah, yeah, how was that? Well, it wasn't the best of combinations, I can tell you that.

Speaker 1: 42:06

But, anyway, that had to have been miserable.

Speaker 2: 42:08

Yeah, but I sat there and then, before I left, here comes Dale and them in the other boat from camp, because they're just pretty sure that I didn't make it, so they're looking for you. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:27

But I surprised them. I was still going, surprised yourself, probably. So you're solo, so if you would have something would happen. I mean, you're on your own out there all right.

Speaker 2: 42:33

Well, you just had been hit. Yeah, you know, because we didn't have life jackets or anything, nothing.

Speaker 1: 42:40

So when it came to these clients. You're the new guy in camp, or the youngest, I should say. What was your role and position? Were you running dogs, feeding dogs and all that?

Speaker 2: 42:50

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:54

Because you're learning hounds and each one of them has their own personality.

Speaker 2: 42:58

Oh yeah, you could get to know those hounds. Now, like in the fall of the year, we would be up in northern Arizona at Dale's Brothers Ranch and we had a fly camp there. They had one small building that was for he and his wife and we slept out on a cot with a tent, with tarps. Okay. And there'd be like maybe 35 to 40 hounds tied out in the canyon when we were sleeping. And if one dog barked, one of us would say I wonder what's wrong with Speck.

Speaker 1: 43:49

So you knew each dog by their bark.

Speaker 2: 43:51

You knew by the bark what dog it was. You got to where you. You even got to where on the race Say, you're on the race with the Jaguar you could tell which dog was in front.

Speaker 1: 44:01

Really. You know, Were you turning all your hounds out at once, or were you cycling them out?

Speaker 2: 44:07

No, the way we hunted those with those two boats we would take the client. We'd leave camp about 10, 11 o'clock at night. Really. So we'd try to get a little sleep 10 to 11 o'clock at night, so we'd try to get a little sleep. Then we'd leave about 10, 11 o'clock, usually from a fishing station. Okay, the fishing stations were built by the fishermen.

Speaker 1: 44:35

What's a fishing station?

Speaker 2: 44:37

It was built out of bamboo and it would be a ramp and it would go up and they would build a square all out of uh, small trees, okay, and they. That would be the sleeping quarters for the fishermen is this floating out in the lake? No, this is up on the shore, okay, and uh, that would be their sleeping station okay because there were fishermen on the lake.

Speaker 1: 45:05

That would stay out there, yeah, so that's kind of a fishing base camp, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2: 45:09

So we would stay there and then we'd pull out of there at 11 o'clock at night and normally there'd be me. I picked up pretty quick on how to maneuver those boats with once the engine's shut off and you want to go along in the boat, being real quiet, and you have what they call the palanca stick, which is about I don't know, maybe 10, 12 feet long, and you just push the boat along.

Speaker 1: 45:42

Along the shore? Yeah, so would there be a flat bottom? You're right along the shore. Yeah, would you pull the motors out of the water and just pull yourself? Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2: 45:51

And we'd pull and be real quiet and we had a gourd that was made to call and imitate the jaguar. I mean, you know you can call other animals. They do it for rabbits and coyotes.

Speaker 1: 46:12

What type of noise is this gourd making?

Speaker 2: 46:14

I meant to break it, I forgot, oh you have one. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:17

Really.

Speaker 2: 46:19

They're about? Oh, maybe a foot in diameter.

Speaker 1: 46:30

It may be eight, eight, nine inches high. Is this something?

Speaker 2: 46:32

that's grown local there. Right, okay, right, just do you get it like? I bought one here a while back. They had a gourd show yeah and I bought one that I'm gonna make another one I can. I've got about three, but I don't have the hide. What you do is you take a hollow amount where they're dried out. Okay. And then in the top you cut about, depending on the size of the gourd, you cut a hole that you get your hand in and out of comfortable. Okay.

Speaker 2: 47:01

And then on the bottom of it you cut a larger hole and you stretch hide across there?

Speaker 1: 47:07

what type of hide any? Uh, goat hide works okay uh dried, or is it you don't put it on soft and letting it dry?

Speaker 2: 47:15

well, you put it on. You put it on wet and then let it dry, okay, and it gets real tight. Then you put a hole in the middle of that hide and you take a braided horse hair and pagey's real good at braiding for me okay you braid a horse hair string and you put it through that hole and then you take beeswax and uh ros and you put on the string and then when you pull on that string you can imitate the sound of a jaguar.

Speaker 1: 47:51

Really.

Speaker 2: 47:51

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 47:52

I've never heard this. How often does this work? I mean, is it?

Speaker 2: 47:57

It works. It works for male and female. You don't know what's coming when you get them coming, but usually they don't growl. Jaguars don't growl, they grunt. Okay. And they'll make just about all of them make the same type call.

Speaker 1: 48:17

What type of grunt Can you imitate it?

Speaker 2: 48:25

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:26

Is it deep?

Speaker 2: 48:27

Yeah, it's deep, deep, and usually you want me to make the sound.

Speaker 1: 48:31

I would love to hear it. Usually they'll go oh, oh, oh oh oh, oh, oh, oh, and that's when they're close.

Speaker 2: 48:41

Yeah, you can hear them in the swamp. You can hear them as much as we gauged one time that Dale I had a client and Dale had a client and both of us were calling, so we knew each other where each other was and we figured we were five miles apart and we could hear each other in that swamp really, I mean sound travels so far on water, yeah, but that swamp and being in the woods and just how thick it was, it didn't.

Speaker 2: 49:13

It didn't damp or any of the noise at all no really the uh in that that swamp, if you were able to climb a tree, none of the trees were more than, oh, I'm going to say, 12 to 15 feet high. Okay. And if you got up in a tree where you could see to the horizon, it would be just like all those trees were the same size.

Speaker 1: 49:36

So it's flat.

Speaker 2: 49:37

Yeah, and I tried my best and I'm pretty good at finding out where I am, in no direction out in the swamp or the forest, either one. If you're out enough, spend enough time out. Dale told me when I went to work for him. He said, george, he says if you pay attention to where you are, he said, put camp on your right shoulder. That's where camp is, and you'll get to where you know. Wherever you are out, hunting, whatever you're doing, you know camp's right there.

Speaker 1: 50:17

So the whole time I mean you're cognitive enough to remember, so even when you're on a cat and the excitement's going crazy, you're always thinking keep camp on my right shoulder trying to, but very hard in that swamp.

Speaker 2: 50:31

I can imagine just one old native. I would ask him where the boats were, maybe 10-15 times a day when we were out I'd say, are the boats right over there? And most of the time he'd go oh.

Speaker 1: 50:50

Really. So what type of swamp are we talking? Is there a lot of dry land in this swamp, or is it just swamp? Because what's a jaguar? I mean, I feel like jaguars, they're not going to want to be wet all the time, or is it pretty moist in?

Speaker 2: 51:03

this place they're pretty much wet all the time.

Speaker 1: 51:04

Really, yeah, really.

Speaker 2: 51:07

And where the swamp was. It was just inland from the ocean and the water that was in the lake was brackish. Okay, you know it wasn't real strong, but it was brackish and I remember you couldn't hardly tell where the water came into that lake. You know there was no river off of the ocean.

Speaker 1: 51:36

It just it was groundwater.

Speaker 2: 51:38

It was there.

Speaker 1: 51:39

Okay.

Speaker 2: 51:40

And most of the time you were, you were in brush, in those small trees. You couldn't see, most of the time, more than about 15 feet.

Speaker 1: 51:54

So when you're calling these jaguars, what was it like when you heard your first one?

Speaker 2: 52:02

I was pretty excited really.

Speaker 1: 52:04

Did you know exactly what it was, or did you have to get confirmation? Like is that one?

Speaker 2: 52:08

Oh no, you knew what it was.

Speaker 1: 52:09

It was that.

Speaker 2: 52:11

But you know you take me. I grew up in Indianaiana.

Speaker 1: 52:15

The only thing I've ever hunted is birds and rabbits okay, you know you're in the swamps in mexico calling jaguars yeah okay and uh, but anyway, uh, the one native that really run the dogs, uh, felice.

Speaker 2: 52:33

he had hunted with Dale many years before and he was the only native that Dale let carry a gun. None of the others natives.

Speaker 1: 52:43

Why is that Just trust-wise?

Speaker 2: 52:45

Yeah, yeah, he knew him well enough.

Speaker 1: 52:48

Okay, didn't want to get shot in the back.

Speaker 2: 52:51

Yeah, because he had a brother. Dale had a brother that did get shot.

Speaker 1: 52:56

Really.

Speaker 2: 52:56

In the back of the lion tree.

Speaker 1: 52:59

Really, I mean it happens. I mean I say it kind of jokingly, but I mean it still happens to this day, especially clients trip, and just aren't paying attention.

Speaker 2: 53:08

Yeah, we didn't allow them to carry a gun with even the client.

Speaker 1: 53:14

Client didn't get to carry a gun, so you're carrying it for him. Get to the tree and hand it to him.

Speaker 2: 53:17

Yeah, we get it to him, load it for him and hand it to him.

Speaker 1: 53:20

Okay. So when you first Jaguar experience, what was that like?

Speaker 2: 53:28

Exciting. You know you got this Phyllis that run the hounds. I mean, if you think about chasing a pack of hounds in the swamp, you know your limbs on the ground three feet high and you're going over stuff and staying within distance of the hounds because you don't have any other way of knowing where their hounds. You've got to keep them and see it in here you have no gps trackers, nothing, none of that did you. I could get into that later. If you want, I would love to, but so you?

Speaker 1: 54:05

I didn't even think of any of this. While you're explaining this, you're just going off of sound and no sight, because I mean, obviously, as soon as you cut them, dogs they're gone. All you gotta go by is sound so thank god you are on the water and you can kind of pick those hounds up for quite a distance, because I mean, I'm trying to relate that to running mountain lions here and they cross over into another ravine. They're gone. You're.

Speaker 2: 54:28

You're 100 relying on gps nowadays I've chased hounds in a mountain afoot. At one time I was pretty, pretty legged up, damn. Once you come out of that swamp. In a swamp you may be up to your knees in water and mud. You may be up to your chest going through you know, do you ever come across?

Speaker 1: 54:55

is there any crocs or alligators or anything in there? No, no, nothing.

Speaker 2: 54:57

There's alligators there, but very few. Okay. I've only seen one 10-foot alligator, but the little ones you know like this yeah, A lot of those.

Speaker 1: 55:08

You only have one 10-foot alligator and you grew up to your chest in water, yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:13

But the ones that were about this long. You'd see, you know, if you're at night shining a light on the water. Those red eyes, you could see the eyes, you know. So, Wayne, he would get in the front of the boat. This is what we're playing around. He'd get in the front of the boat and I didn't do this, but I'd drive the boat and he would go along and he'd take and grab them out of the water.

Speaker 1: 55:39

Hold them up, toss them back in. I didn't do that.

Speaker 2: 55:41

No, you weren't in on that one. No, no.

Speaker 1: 55:45

So you cut out on your first? Okay, so you're calling these jaguars. Are you waiting for them to come to call back? Yeah, I mean okay. So that's the only time you're letting hounds out, or will the hounds cut any sense or anything like that?

Speaker 2: 56:00

No, you can't. The reason why we called the jaguars was like, if the boat is sitting where I am, this direction and a jaguar answers from the direction you're sitting you call for the purpose of getting the Jaguar to come to you and you're still in the boat being super quiet With the client. The boat with the dogs are maybe 100, 200 yards back behind you. Okay. And you're just pulling along.

Speaker 2: 56:33

And just pulling the string as you do it, guys calling with maybe five minutes in between okay and uh, one night we were pulling along like that and uh, I asked this native, I said, kindly down, I said where's the flats? Asked this native. I said kindly down, I said where's the flats? And well, the flats were in the swamp. There would be flats maybe like a road. Width of a road would go out through the swamp a ways and then they'd go through brush and it'd open up into a sandy flat again. Okay.

Speaker 2: 57:11

And if we didn't get a call we would walk those sandy flats because you couldn't take your client. Normally, you know they're professional men. They're men that have some money, they're office people or they're business people.

Speaker 1: 57:27

They're not built for this. They're not built for this, they never are.

Speaker 2: 57:30

Not to go through that swamp. So we tried to get the jaguar as close to us so we could get him and we knew where he came from. We didn't know where he went after he discovered us. We'd never know when he discovered us. Maybe sometimes you'd hear him and he was a little ways off and then you wouldn't hear anything for a while and then they'd open up and maybe it's like he's only 50 feet from you. Really.

Speaker 2: 58:03

You know, and it's like whoa, you know he's here, and then we'd get out of the boat and figure out which way he went after we last heard him.

Speaker 1: 58:14

How? How would you figure that out in the swamps?

Speaker 2: 58:17

By watching him. There's ground, okay, there's ground.

Speaker 1: 58:20

So you're looking for tracks and is this after you're doing this at night?

Speaker 2: 58:24

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 58:25

What are you using to light?

Speaker 2: 58:26

up. Well, you don't do this until daytime. Okay. You know when you get out of okay but we uh like that particular one. When he shined his light, one started running in the water not more than uh 10 feet from the boat oh, so it was coming to you so it was.

Speaker 2: 58:45

How long it had been with us, we didn't know. But the next morning after we stopped right there I leaned down and shook Dale and he only heard about a couple leaps in the water and there was a patch of mud sticking up out of the water and on that mud you could see where he come out of the water, hit that mud with a couple feet and then jumped again and that was when we didn't hear him was when he was on that little mound of mud, but he wasn't 10 feet from the boat.

Speaker 1: 59:20

Really. You know, and jaguars, I feel like just they're so much, they're so meaner than a regular like our mountain lions. Oh yeah, Like they play for keeps and when they're after you they got you. They're a killing machine. I mean, I feel like our mountain lions are built and they're an absolute top predator, but I feel a jaguar's, the next tier up for them.

Speaker 2: 59:47

Oh yeah, there's no comparison. Now I've rode right up under a tree with a lion and it had not bothered me a bit looking up or just like we do, bear hunting or whatever but you sneak up on a jaguar, usually Phyllis, and I would be the first two to the tree. Okay. And I've stood Before they tree. They'll start circling.

Speaker 1: 1:00:13

Is that how you know it's coming?

Speaker 2: 1:00:15

Yeah, and I've been in that circle. Okay. And actually see the dog, see the jaguar. They're no more than 25 feet from you. Passing you by and they're making a circle and you're turning around watching them, you know, before they go out.

Speaker 1: 1:00:32

Is the cat just looking for the right tree and knows pressures on it?

Speaker 2: 1:00:35

I don't you don't know, maybe the dogs have got him aggravated enough that he'll go up a tree. But the funny thing is is that jaguar will be maybe in a little trot, and back behind him is ten dogs and they're in a trot and it's like they're so far apart and nobody's gaining on each other, you know the cap just keeps them right at that distance, you know they're thinking well, you're going to go up a tree, you know they, they don't want to fight him yeah yeah, they've been through that, you know so I watched a video once I want to say it was a Jim Shockey video where they were tagging or studying jaguars down in South America and they had this jaguar tree.

Speaker 1: 1:01:19

It was a big tom. They were guessing and as they were running they were passing hounds that are just dead. I guess this jaguar was just turning around and it would just crush these dogs and obviously somebody can pull the video and find this. But there were several hounds like and you could see the houndsman like his hounds. The camera was just running and like filming these dead dogs as they're trying to get to the tree and they're like we have to get our dogs out of here because it was like this was a big time. Did you ever experience anything like that? Or were your dogs super trained and just knew better?

Speaker 2: 1:01:50

uh, I think after they got one, sometimes jaguars will bay on the ground just like a lion okay but uh, when you can't see no more than 15 feet and you got a jaguar on the ground with 10 hounds on the ground, it's exciting I can imagine things get western real quick. I mean, you can almost feel the hair on your neck, you know. But I've seen dogs come by me doing cartwheels.

Speaker 1: 1:02:23

Really yeah, I mean Jaguars just tossing them.

Speaker 2: 1:02:26

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:02:28

What was it like the very first jaguar that you saw, because they're such a beautiful animal.

Speaker 2: 1:02:33

You know, going through that swamp you could look at your hounds at the tree and most of the time you they would be so much mud on the dog you couldn't hardly tell one from the other. Okay, jaguars in the tree, spotless really they. We, they never were dirty.

Speaker 1: 1:02:56

I've always wondered that, because you see the pictures, especially the old school pictures of them in those tent camps and things like that, and they're always. I've always wondered that.

Speaker 2: 1:03:04

They don't, I don't know. They're short haired, just like the dogs. Yeah, and they got to go the same way the dogs went, because a lot of times the dogs went. Yeah, that's interesting because a lot of times the dogs are going along in the water and the only way they can get the scent is off of what's hanging down oh, just branches and leaves, yeah branches.

Speaker 2: 1:03:25

They'll have their head up and they're hitting the branches that's interesting they're not smelling it because they can't, but when jaguars run they kind of hang, kind of hold their tail up okay, so it's whacking on everything yeah, yeah, like it's kind of curled toward your head a little bit, you know, and a lion don't do that I guess you're right huh, I've never thought of that.

Speaker 1: 1:03:52

Yeah, and so is that catching on a lot of stuff, and that's what that's kind of the indicator for those dogs. Yeah, interesting, is there a client or a hunt that stands out to you above all of them?

Speaker 2: 1:04:03

that you were just was absolute, complete chaos there were a couple times that uh getting back the client you know, how most of them are business people. The hardest thing with the client was getting him to the tree.

Speaker 1: 1:04:23

That's always the biggest problem. Nothing's changed there.

Speaker 2: 1:04:29

And we had this fellow. His name was Fox Burns. We had this fellow, his name was fox burns and he owned a cardboard factory in terre haute, indiana. Okay, and it was a female and a kitten. Okay. And Fox Burns. We'd had him in the swamp walking before and he said you boys go ahead and get it for me. He said I don't want any part of that swamp again. So that was really fun for us.

Speaker 1: 1:05:15

Because you didn't have a client, I didn't have a client.

Speaker 2: 1:05:18

And then the bets would be down who's going to kill this, who's going to get to the tree first? So then we'd take off, you know. And so that particular kitten, which was I would have, I had to say he weighed 70 pounds, something like that. Anyway, the dogs caught him first and bang, it was over for the kitten. Yeah, they killed it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:47

Yep.

Speaker 2: 1:05:48

And we're standing there with the dogs, watching the dogs and letting them dogs chew on him and dale says listen, listen, you know we quieted everything down and we could hear a dog running. He's after that female and so all the dogs. Then, as soon as they heard this other dog, they started off, they go and they're packing to that other dog and Phyllis and I got to the tree first and I'm just kind of looking at it. You know, I wasn't quite ready to shoot it, I was just kind of watching it and all at once bang Dale's over here and he and he shoots it, you know took it out from underneath I had no idea he would be there yeah, so when back then I mean, are you guys killing everything that you treat, or were you trying to just find big toms, or was it just a go everything?

Speaker 2: 1:06:46

everything was a green light. What it was green light on india was it so for every client?

Speaker 1: 1:06:52

what was the density of jaguars down there? I mean, was it pretty common? The turnout? Or when you did, it was like okay, finally, this is happening.

Speaker 2: 1:06:59

There was, I remember, one year. There was 14 jaguars taken out of there that year and there was eight hunting camps down there hunting. Really, really. Hunting camps down there, hunting Really. We, they let's see there was seven of those camps had caught, I think, two jaguars.

Speaker 1: 1:07:24

So how many clients had you run out of there?

Speaker 2: 1:07:26

We had caught the rest. We had caught like 12 and they caught two. Oh okay, yes, what separated you guys?

Speaker 1: 1:07:39

from the rest of the camps, knowing how to do it really just experience. Yeah, really, was there ever a big tom that you got that stood out above the rest?

Speaker 2: 1:07:47

I remember we got on a track and this track had to was the biggest ball we'd ever seen really you know, and we thought we're we're after a big tom. It was a female really big, big female yeah did you guys end up catching her?

Speaker 1: 1:08:05

huh, you end up catching her oh yeah obviously he knew it was a female, so i't answer that one.

Speaker 2: 1:08:11

Yeah, but you know how? I don't know how. You know how a lion will go along and they'll pee on just like a dog. You know they take their two hind feet.

Speaker 1: 1:08:25

Make scrapes yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:08:26

And of course you're in that swamp. I don't know if a jaguar does that or not, and I don't know if I ever discussed that with Dale, but it was.

Speaker 1: 1:08:45

Quite the experience huh.

Speaker 2: 1:08:46

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:08:47

How many years were you down in there doing that, or how many seasons, I should say.

Speaker 2: 1:08:51

Two, three, Three. Yeah, so I mean out of those three seasons, how?

Speaker 1: 1:08:54

many jag? Two, three, three, yeah. So I mean, out of those three seasons, how many jaguars do you think you guys killed?

Speaker 2: 1:08:59

I seen 25.

Speaker 1: 1:09:00

Really.

Speaker 2: 1:09:01

Yeah, really we caught 25.

Speaker 1: 1:09:04

Did you ever have a?

Speaker 2: 1:09:04

Dale said he caught 120-some in his life.

Speaker 1: 1:09:09

That's a good number. Did you ever have any clients get chewed on or anybody ever get attacked, really?

Speaker 2: 1:09:18

No, I never, Other than being on the ground, I seen, wayne that. I told you that introduced me to Dale. I seen him run in on a Jaguar on the ground and this Jaguar was on his back They'll lay on her back and fight and he ran in and stuck a barrel in that jaguar's mouth. Really. And you could hear the clack, clack, clack.

Speaker 1: 1:09:44

Before he let one off, huh.

Speaker 2: 1:09:46

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:09:47

No thanks, no thanks. So after you guys were done so, were you running them in seasons or were you down there the whole time?

Speaker 2: 1:09:57

No, just seasons.

Speaker 1: 1:09:58

So in the off-season of jaguar hunting, what were you doing then?

Speaker 2: 1:10:07

The first year that I came out of the swamp, of course I hadn't hunted any mountain lion yet the swamp, of course I hadn't hunted any mountain lion.

Speaker 2: 1:10:16

We came back to the states and we went up in the mountains, in the Santa Rita mountains, which was about 50 miles south of Tucson towards Nogales in rural Mexico went up in the Santa Ritas and there was a freshwater spring that was there and that's where we picked to stay with the dogs and two mules and there was an old adobe shack there and the old adobe shack was maybe 16 foot long, 8 foot wide and had an old fireplace in the end, dirt floor, no doors. Really. And so that's where I stayed all summer. Really. Yeah, there at that spring and the dogs and the two mules. Really yeah, there at that spring and the dogs and the two mules. Really.

Speaker 2: 1:11:16

And I'd get up every day and take the dogs and make a circle and I got familiar with a Mexican family that ranched down at the bottom of the hill from where I was. Okay.

Speaker 2: 1:11:31

And I got to be quite friendly with him and I'd go be quite friendly with him and I'd go with him and feed the cows and stuff. And I told him, I went down one day and I said his name was Alfredo and I said Alfredo, I've run a lion two or three times, but it was in like June or July and you know it was in like june or july and you know it was hot and I said I've run him two or three times but the the track just dissipates.

Speaker 2: 1:12:03

It's just too hot. Dogs can't smell him and uh. So alfredo said uh well, why don't I come up in the morning and I'll be at your camp for daylight and we'll hit the top of the divide and see if he's up there. He says we'll get a good shot at him because he's high and early in the morning. So we no sooner hit that ridge and I see this particular dog named Drifter. He run over and put his nose in a scratch and so I knew it was fresh. He opened right away and the scratch was headed in that direction. I'll say so. You know that Drifter starts off in that direction, so I know he's going the right direction. So he takes off and I let the rest of the dogs pack to him. I think I had five or six.

Speaker 1: 1:13:12

Are they just trailing you, like just running with you? They're right behind you. Okay, they had five, five or six. Are they just trailing you, like off, like just running with you? They're right behind you, okay.

Speaker 2: 1:13:16

They stay behind you.

Speaker 1: 1:13:18

Got it.

Speaker 2: 1:13:19

That's where they are. All the time I have rode right down a city street. And all those dogs With a lot of traffic on a mule with eight or nine hounds behind me and traffic going by, I never worried. I know they're right there how, just over time, I mean over time and if you get a dog that doesn't at first doesn't know how you, how you do it, you take a neck them to another dog that knows how it's supposed to be done how long does that take before it clicks on a hound, because houndsounds can be pretty stubborn.

Speaker 2: 1:13:53

Not very long A day, really. That's it, huh, they don't take very long Let me know, yeah, interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:14:01

And there's other ways of them knowing too, but that takes a little energy, okay. But the dogs took off and in that magazine that's what that first line, the story it is about. And so we're in a gallop after the dogs and they're going, they're running hard. So we know we're going to catch that lion. He's there on a good track and so pretty soon we come up over a ridge and we could hear the dogs barking tree. So we rode down above the dogs, tied the animals up and walked down and the five dogs are in front of this lion and the lion had treed in an old mesquite. It was more like a brush than a tree, okay, it stuck out and he was just sitting on top of it yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:15:06

And the dogs aren't more than six feet from him.

Speaker 1: 1:15:10

So he's right there.

Speaker 2: 1:15:11

He's right there, and so we sat there and watched him. So he's right there, he's right there. So we sat there and watched him. So Alfredo said to me he said, you know, george, he said that lion is sitting on the edge of a bluff and if we shoot that lion he's going to fall down the bluff and we're going to have to go all the way down this canyon and come all the way up the next canyon.

Speaker 2: 1:15:39

So he says you get down with the dogs and I'll get over here as far as I can and I'll shoot him in the back of the head and when I do, you grab whatever you can grab a hold of. Keep him from falling down there. Now it may seem pretty wild to most people, but these guys, when you're with them, these old-timers, you do whatever they tell you to do because you think they're telling you just like, this is the way this is done, and blah, blah blah, you don't question it you don't question it and you know if a bear goes up a tree and he wants to come down when he gets down.

Speaker 2: 1:16:23

So far, stick him in the ass and he'll go back up.

Speaker 1: 1:16:30

So this is what this guy's telling you to do yeah, so so I get down with the lion.

Speaker 2: 1:16:36

I'm sitting there, the dogs are on both sides of me and here he is.

Speaker 1: 1:16:40

You know how close arms distance six feet, okay, okay and uh.

Speaker 2: 1:16:46

so when alfredo shoots, it was just like that lion tucked his head, yep, and his ass didn't come up. And here come his tail. And I grabbed his tail and sat down and he fell over the bluff about half of him and he's quivering dead. I got a hold of him and I hollered at Alfredo. I said get down there and help me. I can't hold him. You know he's waiting for me. And so Alfredo ran down there and we got him up. We pulled him up.

Speaker 2: 1:17:18

So, so I didn't think anything about that. I thought this is SOP.

Speaker 1: 1:17:27

It's just how you do it.

Speaker 2: 1:17:30

So Alfredo said, georgie said, just take that lion downtown in Patagonia. Patagonia was like I don't know, 15, 20 miles. Okay, on horse, no, in his truck. Okay. So we put the lion in the back end of this half ton and we go down to the bar, because he said there'll be some cowboys down there. I know them. And so we went in and he introduced me to two or three of these cowboys and once they found out I was hunting with Dale, then everybody knew Dale down in that country. Well, I mean.

Speaker 1: 1:18:07

Dale's a legend to this day still.

Speaker 2: 1:18:11

And so it'll be okay because I know him and so, alfredo, he's telling the story about how things went. So he tells all about the race and the tree and how we get down there. And he said I told george to get down there. And he said when I shoot him, you grab him. And he said do you know?

Speaker 1: 1:18:34

this kid did that and you sit there like you, son of a bitch. Yeah, almost went off a bluff for you, yeah, okay yeah he's afraid I was like I can't believe it worked yeah yeah he'll do. Okay. So you're living in an adobe hut. What are you eating? And everything out there. I mean, how are you surviving out here?

Speaker 2: 1:19:02

all summer. Well, you know, I don't have any way to keep anything cold.

Speaker 1: 1:19:07

Yeah, I mean that's my thought. So you're near 15, 20 miles from town. I mean, are you making a trip every day to go get something, or what are you eating?

Speaker 2: 1:19:14

No, I eat a lot of sandwiches A ring of red and a loaf of bread.

Speaker 1: 1:19:21

And do you have a well out there?

Speaker 2: 1:19:24

Yeah, there's fresh water.

Speaker 1: 1:19:26

Yeah, Are you out there by yourself, in these hounds.

Speaker 2: 1:19:28

Yeah. Really so I stay there all summer.

Speaker 1: 1:19:32

You're just enjoying life, huh.

Speaker 2: 1:19:33

Oh yeah, I get up every day and ride a mountain.

Speaker 1: 1:19:36

You ever go down to Alfredo's and he cooks you up some tortillas and beans.

Speaker 4: 1:19:39

Yeah, yeah, that's pretty nice yeah, I go down there for dinner. Okay.

Speaker 2: 1:19:43

Anyway, I stayed there all summer.

Speaker 1: 1:19:46

Were there big bears out there.

Speaker 2: 1:19:48

I never run a bear while I was there, Okay, and it was the only line I ran. And then we went from day would come down, we loaded up everything and we went up to the White Mountains in Arizona. Mm-hmm. We were up on Blue River. Okay. Blue River's right on the almost on the border of New Mexico and Arizona, just above Clifton.

Speaker 1: 1:20:18

Oh, I know, Clifton, okay above.

Speaker 2: 1:20:20

Clifton Blue River comes down. Okay. That's where the ranch was. That Dale's brother Clell had. How many acres?

Speaker 1: 1:20:30

are you talking on ranches?

Speaker 2: 1:20:31

I don't know, I don't even know how many head he runs.

Speaker 1: 1:20:35

Just large enough.

Speaker 2: 1:20:36

Just large enough. It wasn't a big deal. I helped getting the cattle that fall and bringing them down onto Blue River. I don't think he didn't have too many cows, maybe 80 to 100. Maybe it's not a huge many cows. Okay, you know, maybe 80 to 100, maybe.

Speaker 1: 1:20:57

It's not a huge operation, but enough, yeah enough. So when you moved up there, besides helping the cattle, are you running up there?

Speaker 2: 1:21:04

Yeah, we were. We wasn't on Blue River, we were up at Hannigan's Meadow. Do you know where?

Speaker 1: 1:21:11

I don't.

Speaker 2: 1:21:11

Hannigan's is at the top of the road. If you went up from Clifton, if you climbed a mountain, you'd go up into the White Mountains across the Fort Apache Reservation.

Speaker 1: 1:21:23

And that's where you guys were Some of the biggest elk up there that there is.

Speaker 2: 1:21:26

Okay. And so we went up there and we were going to stay there till the end of December and then we'd go down to Tucson and outfit for Mexico.

Speaker 1: 1:21:41

So this is just your cycle, and these are the same hounds that you're running. So instead of letting your hounds have an off season, you're just jumping season. You're chasing seasons to keep these hounds fresh.

Speaker 2: 1:21:49

Yeah, you're going up there running bear and lion.

Speaker 1: 1:21:52

What was the bears like up there?

Speaker 2: 1:21:55

They wasn't real big. No, I've got a picture of Dale and a couple of old cowboys of the world's second largest bear by bow. Really. And they're standing and they've got it stretched out on the ground.

Speaker 1: 1:22:16

That was up there with you guys.

Speaker 2: 1:22:18

That was there at Handigan's that they caught it. But we just ran lion and bear while we were up there and training the hounds.

Speaker 1: 1:22:32

And you're all dry ground too a lot of the time. Yeah, that's all dry ground, I feel like from what? And training the hounds?

Speaker 1: 1:22:34

and you're all dry ground too a lot of the time yeah, that's just dry ground I feel like, from what I know is hounds and having a bunch of buddies that are houndsmen, like any dogs, uh, any of the hounds I mean in the houndsman world, those dry dogs that's what everybody wants, is the dry ground ones that are just so, I guess, you know, compared to snow. And then I guess, if I guess the next would be swamps, I mean, if your dogs are running swamps, there's nothing that is probably even slowing those things down.

Speaker 2: 1:22:58

No.

Speaker 1: 1:22:59

So those dogs are coming straight from the swamps of Mexico and you're rolling right up into just anything. I mean there's probably a breeze for them to get on a track.

Speaker 2: 1:23:06

Yeah, yeah, made a lot of fun. Yeah, it's fun to watch the dogs and know the dogs Speaking of dogs do you know a houndsman here by the name of Tyler Strickland. He owned the you know that rock yard that's just out of Star Idaho. Mm-mm.

Speaker 2: 1:23:30

There's a rock yard. Okay, he owned that and then he sold that. Well, about five years ago I told Marie. I said I know there's a hound banquet because I'd seen them advertised out in Nampa they're having a banquet. So I said let's go to that banquet and maybe I can meet somebody that might know Dale or I might get to know a houndsman. So we go out there and I didn't really meet anybody that I really connected with and I told Marie. I said well, let's go. We had dinner.

Speaker 2: 1:24:15

And so on the way out was this fellow and he says to us, he said uh, introduced himself, try, tyler, and he was some officer in this bank for that particular hound bunch. And uh, so he says to me. He says, do you have hounds? And I said not anymore. But I did. At one time I said when the wife and I got married I had 18 hounds. And he said where'd you hunt? And I said down in Arizona with Dale Lee. And he said, oh, jesus Christ, I was instant celebrity he knew yeah, yeah he knew all about dale.

Speaker 1: 1:25:00

He said I've read all of these books and seen his movies and everything I mean because he documented so much of everything he did, which made it very interesting yeah, dale could tell a story that uh, every year in tucson when we were outfitting to go to mexico he would put on like a seminar at the university really and rent an auditorium and, uh, there'd be we 400 people there really.

Speaker 2: 1:25:32

You know, to just listen to Dale, and he had a slideshow that he put on and then he'd tell stories. And he could tell a story when, if he said he was pulling a branch back, looking, you know, you could almost see yourself raising a branch. Yeah, you know, he was really good at it.

Speaker 1: 1:25:52

And you had no idea. This was all just dumb luck from hitchhiking from Indiana and you end up with one of the most legend hound hunters and end up in the swamps of Mexico.

Speaker 2: 1:26:03

Yeah, that's so, tyler, you know he really got excited about. So then I began to go bear hunting with Tyler and he lives above Ola. He's got a I think he's got 600 acres up there and he's got a shed that he built. It's not just a shed, you would call it a shop Maybe 40 foot wide and 60 foot long, and in one end of it he's got quarters all fixed up with all the stove, fridge, everything you can sleep there. And then he's got this operation for the bears. He's got this operation for the bears. He's got three little ponds that he's carved out with his excavator and he has a trail camera at each one of those ponds and it's connected to his computer back at his shop and he'll get up and he get his camera and he's ah, there's a bear out at waterhole.

Speaker 2: 1:27:21

So and so really you know, and so you that's nice get in the truck and you drive out there and jump the hounds out. It's been about you've got a. You got a bear 15 minutes.

Speaker 1: 1:27:32

That's nice. So when's the last time you got to get out and see some hounds work?

Speaker 2: 1:27:38

I didn't go this year. No. Did I go with Ransom yeah? You did, yeah, okay, we went with.

Speaker 3: 1:27:44

Ransom yeah, yeah, yeah, we took Ransom up there, okay, and we treed one bear.

Speaker 2: 1:27:49

I think yeah, yeah, well. I think yeah, yeah, well, good, I'm glad you're still after it, yeah, and so Ransom got to walk down at the tree and see the bear Yep, and it was a female, and when I first seen her I said she didn't want to stay up there, you know, and she had two cubs and they were above her and they were above her and she come down within 10 feet of the ground Ransom yes sir, yeah, she was masked, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:28:27

I can imagine Jaws clapping and she's ready to chew something up. So she finally come off of that tree and ran down. Wasn't too far and went up another tree and left the cubs up the first tree. So we just watched her a while and then left. We never shooted. It's fun to watch, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:28:42

Especially bears. That's why I love bears. We kill a lot of bears in the family, but it's just fun watching bears. They have a crazy personality and they're just fun.

Speaker 2: 1:28:52

Well, maybe next season you can come up. I'll talk to Tyler, maybe you can come up with Ransom.

Speaker 1: 1:29:00

Yep, just to watch Ransom.

Speaker 2: 1:29:01

I think has got a pretty good relationship started with him.

Speaker 1: 1:29:04

Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 2: 1:29:06

And so we do have a bear hunter.

Speaker 1: 1:29:09

Yep, oh bears, we are a bear-killing family, for sure. Yeah, we bears, we are a bear-killing family for sure. Yeah we like our bears, we're very picky, I mean you've seen the rugs.

Speaker 2: 1:29:18

You've never had the opportunity.

Speaker 1: 1:29:19

I've never had the opportunity. I've pulled on a mountain lion tail, but I've never run a bear before.

Speaker 2: 1:29:24

Well, try it, but be careful when you do it, because you're liable to get something.

Speaker 1: 1:29:30

Have you ever.

Speaker 2: 1:29:31

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:29:32

Really yeah, have you ever? Yeah, really yeah, because they told you to and it works. Really, you, you poked a bear in the back. Yes, let me hear this story. Yeah, what was the first time? I mean, was it a decent size bear or was it?

Speaker 2: 1:29:43

well, we were, we up in the white mountains, and we had this guy in his life for clients, and they were from new york. Okay, so we were, we were muleback, dale and I, and they were horseback. So as we're going up the canyon, uh, the dogs take off on a good track. They are acting like they're. We were afraid they might be running a bear. Bear season wasn't in. Got it.

Speaker 2: 1:30:10

So, uh, dale says to this guy and his wife says you get off here and just stay here, and george and I'll go after the dogs and one of us will come back and get you once they've treed, because we didn't know if they were running a bear or running a deer, because it sounds just about alike what makes the difference between a bear, a deer and a mountain lion like?

Speaker 1: 1:30:36

how do you tell the difference? Is this okay, so it's not like a speed or how fast it's traveling or anything you know.

Speaker 2: 1:30:43

You know if they're after a deer or a bear, because they're running to be hell oh, okay you know, whereas a lion they might be.

Speaker 2: 1:30:51

part of it might be coal trailing, part of it might be a good track. Remind me, I'll tell you a little story about Dale and a track. But anyway, this particular time we take off and we get up and we hear the dogs barking tree. So we go up and there's this bear up the tree. And so Dale says to me he says, george, get you a stick, keep that bear up the tree and I'll be back. And he wheels his mule around and the only gun we had was a little 22 pistol.

Speaker 1: 1:31:34

I was gonna ask what are you guys hunting with?

Speaker 2: 1:31:36

yeah, dale carried on his saddle and he takes off and goes back. I've never seen a bear this is your first bear, first bear, okay I've never seen one and I'm to get a stick, sharpen it, get down with the dogs and wait for a bear if it tries to come down, to get it back up the tree Really, and so I'm pretty nervous about it. I can imagine. Sitting there. Every time he'd lift a paw off a limb, I'd jump up and you know, and sit the dogs and sit back down.

Speaker 1: 1:32:11

How long did this go on for I?

Speaker 2: 1:32:12

don't know how it seemed like an eternity, but anyway.

Speaker 1: 1:32:16

I can imagine all by yourself. I mean, the hounds just lit up the whole time.

Speaker 2: 1:32:20

Yeah, yeah, and once they'd settled down, I'd get them excited again. Yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:32:25

So, dale, come back with these two people. And I'm wanting to get Dale off to the side and they're taking pictures. And I get Dale off to the side and I said Dale, god damn it. I said I, I don't know about this stick stuff. And here I am with a stick and you just turn around, go off, leave me. I'm here by myself. And he said he apologized to me. And he said George, I'm sorry. He said hell and he said he apologized to me.

Speaker 2: 1:32:52

And he said George, I'm sorry. He said hell, if I had thought it made you nervous or anything, I wouldn't have done that. And well, I said don't do it again, so I find out about it. And so he apologized for it. But that was the first bear I seen. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:33:16

And then once you realize I mean bears are they're not as crazy or scary as you think they are and it's like an everyday thing sitting underneath a bear in a tree.

Speaker 2: 1:33:24

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:33:25

Until they want to come out of that tree and all your dogs are below it. Someone's getting bit, or one of the dogs is getting bit at least, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:33:31

Yeah, yeah, you don't want them on the ground.

Speaker 1: 1:33:35

No.

Speaker 2: 1:33:36

They can tear up a pack of hounds.

Speaker 1: 1:33:38

Real quick, especially a big boar. I mean they just back into a tree and they'll just sit there and swat and chew all day. Yeah, that's the problem with those hounds, I mean they're just so.

Speaker 2: 1:33:48

You know, though, after they've been on enough animals on the ground, it's almost like they learn to work together. Okay, when somebody's working on their ass, somebody's working on the other end, on their head, and they just like they switch ends and they can keep an animal turning around.

Speaker 1: 1:34:13

Seeing you guys, I mean, you probably had some of the best hounds in the world at that point, because they're just, they never had an off season. No, I feel like you know, I know, guys, and they'll run, obviously, once the snow falls, that's when their hounds are getting out. I mean, they start running them in summer. There's a lot of states, I mean because you know, obviously we're fortunate here to have the that what chase and pursuit season and tree whatever, I didn't the terminology they use for it, but I mean, obviously it's a chase and no kill season, so you can keep your dogs yeah trained up, but I mean there's a lot of states that don't allow that, so the only time they're getting out is when the snow falls yeah, you know, you go, you around, you go to see somebody's hound and they're working people.

Speaker 2: 1:34:55

You know Most of them has got the hounds, unless they're elderly, you know and have retired. But the young guys with hounds, you know they don't get them out, Maybe once a week, maybe once every two weeks, maybe once a week maybe once every two weeks and then they'll tell you that's a.

Speaker 2: 1:35:16

A good hound to us was a hound that would run nothing except what you were after. I mean, they could cross deer tracks, javelina tracks, raccoon tracks, coyote tracks. Never run them. If you had, if you had, a pack of 25 hounds and you're running them every day, every other day you're switching off yeah you're dividing them up. If you had four hounds out of that bunch of 25 that was capable of doing that, you had them that well trained, you were lucky.

Speaker 2: 1:35:59

And you had to hunt them every day. To be lucky to have a dog like that.

Speaker 1: 1:36:03

Did you have about five or did you have how many out of your pack?

Speaker 2: 1:36:08

Out of 25 hounds, we had about five.

Speaker 1: 1:36:11

Yeah, that were just that good.

Speaker 2: 1:36:13

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:36:14

Which is something to be proud of.

Speaker 2: 1:36:16

And that was because you got them out.

Speaker 1: 1:36:19

Every day.

Speaker 2: 1:36:20

And you worked them and you got enough game that they knew what they were doing.

Speaker 1: 1:36:25

Was Javelina hard to turn dogs off of, because I feel like that is one of the stinkiest, nastiest creatures on the planet. Yeah, it is and they're a mean son of a bitch too yeah they tear up some dogs, if they got a hold of them. Yeah, what was worse was the codamundi okay, I was just gonna ask you about that, but I wasn't sure if you were in that area. Yeah, they're like a little monkey, in a way like a raccoon monkey, I mean they, they have some good claws on did you ever come across any of those?

Speaker 1: 1:36:49

yeah, did you ever kill any? No, no, I want one. They're a fascinating little thing. Yeah, we had them. We were hunting down the down the mexican border and they we had some stuff in the truck and they got into it and they the little prints were all over our trucks and they tore all of our trash up. I mean they're, they're a little son of a bitch, those little things are. But I've heard of guys talking about those cuda mondays that are. Just they'll tear a hound up we got.

Speaker 1: 1:37:13

We got a bunch of them in mexico on a jack, on a jaguar track really run into a bunch of them because they roll in little packs yeah, they tore the hell out of the dog, really, yeah did you guys carry anything like you know when you were down there to repair dogs, or was that not a common thing? Yeah we just needle, you just needle and thread or what, because that was just pre-staple guns and all that.

Speaker 2: 1:37:35

Yeah, needle and thread took penicillin. Okay. Funny story about the penicillin. Let me hear it. Young fellows would go to town and there were girls available in town and when you'd get back to camp you'd take a shot of penicillin.

Speaker 1: 1:38:00

Clear your system out.

Speaker 2: 1:38:02

Dale said one day you boys got to stay out of that penicillin. Run them through the supply of your dogs.

Speaker 1: 1:38:11

You wanted me to remind you of the story of Dale on a track.

Speaker 2: 1:38:16

I wasn't there, Okay, but you know, whenever the clients would come, we always had a fire in camp a big ring of fire that we'd set around at night and Dale would tell some of these stories, and I heard these stories over and over.

Speaker 1: 1:38:34

I bet you that was an incredible time.

Speaker 2: 1:38:36

But you know Dale wrote this book, the Greatest Guide that Ever Lived. Yep, You've seen the book Mm-hmm. You know how much those books are worth now, according to over $1,000 for one of his books. Really yeah, wow. I got one that's autographed. Really.

Speaker 1: 1:38:54

Yeah, good for you. Yeah, I bet you collected some cool stuff over the years.

Speaker 2: 1:38:59

But anyway, he's telling this story about going along with the clients and the dogs are working his track and it's not a real good track track, but they're able to cold trail and cold trailing is fun to watch.

Speaker 1: 1:39:16

it's fun to watch the hens what do you consider a cold trail, a day or two old?

Speaker 2: 1:39:21

yeah, day old, depending on how hot it is if it's rained.

Speaker 2: 1:39:27

But anyway, dale's sitting there riding along and the dogs are cold, trailing, and so Dale gets off his mule and gets down on his all fours and he's smelling the ground, you know and gets back up and gets in his saddle and this guy said what are you doing? He said oh, I just smell on that track. See how old it was. And he said this dude said how old is it? And dale says oh, a couple days. He said I don't think they'll be able to catch it. So later there, a day or so later, they're hunting and the dogs are on a track and this guy says to dale, he rides up where dale is. He said uh, what are the dogs doing? He says well, they're trailing the lion. It's pretty good track. And the guy said how old is it? And dale said oh, I don't know for sure. And the guy says well, have you smelled it yet? And he thought that's how it was.

Speaker 2: 1:40:34

Dale was just jockeying. Yeah, absolutely, and not thinking about it the next day or so, completely already forgot about it.

Speaker 1: 1:40:40

Yeah, yeah, because I mean messing with clients is part of the fun of being a guide and I mean I used to catch badgers and you know you'd throw them at a client. You know you'd get them at a client, you know you'd get them in a hole or whatever. Yeah, I mean just tell stories and get these guys fired up. I mean that's half the fun, I feel like, of being a hunting guide is just messing with clients, and especially when you're super green and it's their first time in an area you could tell them anything and they just eat it up.

Speaker 2: 1:41:06

Yeah, dale told us that we had a client from New York. Oh, no, dale told us that we had a client from New York, oh no, and he had never shot anything, never hunted anything, but his designer told him that he needed a Jaguar on his wall.

Speaker 1: 1:41:24

His interior designer.

Speaker 2: 1:41:26

Yeah, so he come hunting, Never hunted in his life.

Speaker 1: 1:41:29

How did this go over? How do you take a guy from new york city that's never experienced anything and you throw him into the swamps of mexico hunting jaguars?

Speaker 2: 1:41:38

you couldn't get him. You knew you couldn't get him through the trees okay, was he a bigger guy, or? Not necessarily, but he was, he was overweight okay and uh, so we took him in on one track. He didn't catch the Jaguar, but he was in the swamp for three or four hours mm-hmm and by the time we got him back to the boat he was just flat exhausted.

Speaker 2: 1:42:03

I could imagine and so Dale said to the guy he said what would you mind? You mind if we caught one in a trap for you. You wouldn't have to go so far in the swamp. And the guy said, no, I don't think that would be very exciting. And Dale said oh, it's exciting. So anyway, we put out where these sandy flats run. They'd run different lengths but maybe be 50 foot wide and most of them would narrow down to where you'd have brush for maybe 20 feet and then you're back out on the flat again. So that was the kind of area that we looked for.

Speaker 1: 1:42:49

Little pinch points.

Speaker 2: 1:42:50

So we would actually put brush and make an area to where he had to go through there. Okay, yep. And I think they were, seems to me, maybe a number four number four trap, foot trap, yeah, yeah, would be what we had. Okay. But anyway, we just put it under, put a little hole into the ground, put the trap in it, put a piece of tarp over the pan of the trap and then cover it up with dirt lightly and then put a stick in front of it. And a stick in back of it.

Speaker 2: 1:43:31

So he had to lift his foot and put his foot down that trap. So we did that. We had about four or five traps out. So Dale told me he said why don't you take Pascasio, go down and run that trap line and see if we got anything? So Pascasio and I went down. That's the client.

Speaker 2: 1:43:50

No, that's a native he and I went down. And we're going to look to see if we got any. Well, I think it was the second trap, but by the time you got on the sandy flat, by the time you got within about 20 feet of that trap, you could tell that you had one in a trap.

Speaker 2: 1:44:12

You can't see him, but the trap's gone, so we just turn around and go back. We get Dale and the client to run this trap line. Well, we all know where the trap is and where he's got caught. We take a chain and tie it onto the trap, about four foot long, and tie a stick on it, so it'd help catch him in the brush.

Speaker 1: 1:44:35

Oh, so you weren't running like a gaff or a hook. I know some guys will run like a hook or something like that. That helps catch and slow him down, so it's technically the same thing, yeah technically, we'll just put a log on it. Yep.

Speaker 2: 1:44:46

You know so he'd get hung up, yep. And so we're walking down toward where the trap is and Dale's alongside this guy. And we get pretty close to the trap and all at once Dale grabs this guy and said look out. You know, he said, by God, we got one in the trap, got to be careful. You know, just playing it up for the guy. Yeah, okay, and we started deliberately making big circles, you know so we knew it wouldn't run into him oh, okay, you know yeah and we're going along being cautious and stopping every once in a while daily grab.

Speaker 2: 1:45:27

Look. No, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:45:29

Is this guy just completely just locked up?

Speaker 2: 1:45:34

This guy's getting to where the sweat's coming down his face, you know. And finally we get him up there and Dale grabs him and says there he is, you know, and hands him a shotgun with a slug in it.

Speaker 1: 1:45:47

Oh God.

Speaker 2: 1:45:47

Just knocked the hell out of that guy.

Speaker 1: 1:45:49

I can imagine.

Speaker 2: 1:45:50

First shot he's gone. Yeah, he's right quick. But anyway, dale says what do you think, is it exciting? And the guy said I've never had anything so exciting in my life, you know they're just looking at each other like this poor guy.

Speaker 1: 1:46:09

I can see that I've gone out with some. You know, like my buddy in Africa. We had some guys over there and they're kind of like I was like dude. I get it yeah, I do the same yeah, I was like let's just have fun, Cut the shit, let's just kill a part of the sport. You know, I mean you want to give the client all the experience that they can. He's paying for it. What did a jaguar hunt go for back then?

Speaker 2: 1:46:41

A bear and a lion were the same amount of money $900.

Speaker 1: 1:46:46

Oh, my God.

Speaker 2: 1:46:47

For a 10-day hunt. What year was this and for a jaguar it was $1,000.

Speaker 1: 1:46:56

$1,000 to hunt a jaguar in Mexico. So these were all very wealthy people coming out of big cities.

Speaker 2: 1:47:01

Yeah, what were your feet like?

Speaker 1: 1:47:16

Your daily wear was a t-shirt, a pair of Levi's and tennis shoes. You were hunting jaguars in the swamps in levi's. Y'all were just built different. They were a different breed. I would die running through a swamp with levi's. I'll admit it, no, you would too imagine running hands and levi's and tennis shoes. Yeah, I mean, were your feet just rotting away by the time you're getting out of these swamps, or were you able to dry them out every?

Speaker 2: 1:47:36

day. Oh, you'd dry them out every day.

Speaker 1: 1:47:38

I feel like my feet would just have jungle rot immediately, or?

Speaker 2: 1:47:41

something when you get to camp. You know we always had a fire.

Speaker 1: 1:47:43

Yep, dried everything out, dried out. Did you just get over being wet, or was it worth it? Yeah, I don't know that we really thought too much about it, I mean, are you getting wet every day, or is it when you were just turning out on cats?

Speaker 2: 1:47:59

When you were running cats.

Speaker 1: 1:48:00

So I mean you could go days without even you were just in the boats Without hearing anything. Got it Okay, that makes sense For some reason.

Speaker 2: 1:48:09

I'm feeling like you're just out in there all day, every day, without walking those flats. You couldn't just take a client and start out through the jungle. I mean he's gone the first day.

Speaker 1: 1:48:20

I've had some clients you just take and you just walk their asses off.

Speaker 2: 1:48:23

Yeah, we had some that wanted to get another one, you know, Really. They never got another one. We'd take them walking through the swamp first day, or a good long walk, and if they already had one, they'd think, ah, that's good enough.

Speaker 1: 1:48:37

I've had my fill. Yeah, I can imagine that was probably such a wild time. Just nobody down there besides you guys just running cats in the swamp. Were you guys going up like little slews or were you just on the edge of the swamp? Were you guys going up like little sloughs or were you just on the edge of the lake the whole entire time?

Speaker 2: 1:48:54

uh, come off of the lake was what we called stringers okay and they were just like a off of the lake would be a like a river going off, okay and you're just, you're pulling yourself up in there yeah was there any fill you fishing a lot like?

Speaker 1: 1:49:11

was that where you're feeding clients, or were you bringing all your food in?

Speaker 2: 1:49:14

Were you catching anything out there?

Speaker 1: 1:49:15

I brought all the food in yeah, where were you guys feeding clients then? What was an average meal in camp back then?

Speaker 2: 1:49:22

Average meal.

Speaker 1: 1:49:23

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:49:25

It wasn't a luxurious trip hunting with Dale.

Speaker 1: 1:49:30

You were there to work.

Speaker 2: 1:49:32

It was pretty rough going. I mean, we were used to it. But I imagine the client thought holy hell a lot of beans and yeah, beans and oats and cooked ducks. Yeah, yeah, ducks was our only meat.

Speaker 1: 1:49:50

Oh, really, yeah, and you guys were getting those out there on the lake.

Speaker 2: 1:49:53

Yeah, it was full of birds and ducks and you know we had five guys one time come down to shoot ducks and it was supposed to be a five-day hunt for them Day and a half. Done. They come into the camp and said said we shot enough that many ducks huh oh hell like argentina I mean doves, really geese, snow geese. I've seen where you see pictures of snow geese getting up. I've seen that down there it's just thousands. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:50:31

Really so, you guys? I mean, it wasn't ever a day where you were like oh man, I wish we could get some ducks. I mean, it was always just something.

Speaker 2: 1:50:38

Well, there was one particular duck that we ate. It was called a black falvis tree duck. Hmm, I don't know that one. And they had long legs, okay, and they had the habits of a goose and when they flew they peeped. It was a peeping sound and the natives called them peepachinis.

Speaker 1: 1:51:05

Peepachinis.

Speaker 2: 1:51:06

Because they made that peepachini sound, that peeped when they flew. But you would go after food.

Speaker 1: 1:51:17

Well, you'd find them on the sandbars, so you'd sneak around until where you could get up with a shotgun just ground, pound them yeah, ground pound, you might get 10 at a time were you guys just grilling them, or are you busting them up and making them all different ways? Or was it just like over a fire?

Speaker 2: 1:51:37

In a crock pot. Okay. With potatoes and onions and carrots. Okay. Let it cook all day and they were pretty fair to eat. Okay, you know. Yeah, I have to say so.

Speaker 1: 1:51:52

Is there a hunt in all of those years down there running bears? Is there any hunts that stand out to you the most that you're just like man, that was either crazy, or the biggest, or something. I feel like every guide. There's one or two hunts that just stand out to them above the rest.

Speaker 2: 1:52:10

I think of one particular hunt. The client was a lieutenant governor from New Mexico and I guess he had hunted all over the world and had a big shop where he went into and all of his heads and everything.

Speaker 1: 1:52:29

This is down in New Mexico. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2: 1:52:31

And the first one we put him on. It was the first hunt of the year and we went up instead of in a swamp, we went up on the edge of the foothills and was exercising the dogs up there Well, it was the first hunt of the year was exercising the dogs up there? Well, it was the first time of the year. The dogs really hadn't got used to being there yet because it was a different climate, different altitude, everything that would affect a dog or even human beings. It affects you differently.

Speaker 2: 1:53:09

Oh, for sure sure, but anyway we got on this track and it was so damned hot that out of the nine or ten hounds that we had, phyllis and I got to the. It treed on a big boulder, big as this room, really, and it was up on on a big boulder as big as this roof Really.

Speaker 2: 1:53:34

And it was up on top of this boulder and out of the ten hounds we only had three that got to the boulder and their tongues was hanging out and they were trying to bark, but it was, you know, hell. They couldn't hardly make it. So we had talked to most of the clients that if one bait on the ground or if we had the dogs in a lot of danger before they got there, we would go ahead and shoot the animal before we would lose dogs. For sure.

Speaker 2: 1:54:16

And most of the clients was okay with that. You know they'd say all right, it wasn't the best thing, but they accepted it. Yeah, so it came off the boulder on Phyllis' side Phyllis. We called him Phyllis because it was easier for us to say Phyllis than it was Phyllis. So he was. Phyllis I get it, I get it. So he shot the animals that came off the side of the boulder and this guy threw a fit. Really. I mean he threw a fit. He didn't care if we lost every dog that we had.

Speaker 1: 1:55:03

That was his cat.

Speaker 2: 1:55:04

And Phyllis was an old blah blah blah for shooting his jaguar. So he left camp mad, didn't give anybody a tip or anything, and the next year he come back. So we knew he was going to be the first hunt again. So in the meantime of working the dogs, we found out we had two dogs that we didn't really want. That just wasn't going to be good dogs. So we took those dogs to Mexico, those two along with the others, and Dale said to me you know he said I want you boys to take those two hounds on the race but keep them on a rope, and if we get a chance I want you boys to throw those two hounds in there or a jaguar, let the jaguar take care of them. We'll get $2,000 bucks.

Speaker 1: 1:56:12

Oh, so you have to pay if a client.

Speaker 2: 1:56:14

Well, he said, I'll give you $1,000 for every hound that's killed.

Speaker 1: 1:56:19

So you guys brought your two worst dogs and put in two extra grand. Did it work? No, we didn't get a chance to do it. No, so now you're stuck with the two worst dogs.

Speaker 2: 1:56:33

Yeah. But, anyway, after he got his Jaguar he was happy. Okay, in fact, when he left camp he gave me a 7X Beaver Stetson. Really. Back then that was a hell of a half. Oh, hell yeah. You know and everybody, a $ hundred dollar bill was that a really good tip?

Speaker 1: 1:56:54

what was an average tip then for I mean, because you're bucks and that was pretty good, that was good and how many day hunt was this? These five day hunts?

Speaker 2: 1:57:01

14 day 900 bucks 14 day hunt two clients a month oh my goodness yeah that's a long two weeks with somebody, especially if it's a shitty client. Was there ever a client that showed up and you get rid of them pretty quick if you walked them in the swamp how many guys did you have to?

Speaker 1: 1:57:23

because I mean, there's just I feel at least every season you get one client that immediately you're like okay, this guy immediately know.

Speaker 2: 1:57:32

That was him.

Speaker 1: 1:57:33

That was him, yeah, and you just walk him. Yeah, Complainers take him to the swamp.

Speaker 2: 1:57:41

Take him to the swamp, put him in there all day and they're ready to go home.

Speaker 1: 1:57:45

Really yeah. I mean, that's pretty convenient, though, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:57:50

Dang.

Speaker 1: 1:57:51

I mean that's convenient though.

Speaker 2: 1:57:52

Yeah, dang, I mean that's, but can you imagine chasing hounds in that swamp? No, a foot. No.

Speaker 1: 1:58:00

No, I'm trying to rack my brain, because we talked a little bit about collars. Okay and All right.

Speaker 2: 1:58:07

All right. In 59, dale came up with the idea of the shock collars Really, and he connected with a guy that was a professor at the University of Arizona and they began work on the collars. On these electric okay, shot collars. And the first shot collars that they had. We were at that camp in the Santa Rita Mountains that was the first summer for me and he came out and brought us a box about six inches wide, four inches in depth and maybe a foot high, with a seven-foot antenna on it.

Speaker 1: 1:59:02

Per dog.

Speaker 2: 1:59:04

No, that was the unit that we were testing it only had high-low, these poor dogs. So the collar had. The collar only had one connection in the collar.

Speaker 2: 1:59:24

One prong, one prong. Well, we didn't have a tester that wasn't invented yet. So in order to tell if we had it, it was okay. Dale would say to me George, you take that collar out there about 50 yards and hold on to it and I'll give you a shock with seeing if it's working or not. So we had to do that. You know so, after trying that every day you went, you had to get shocked.

Speaker 1: 2:00:02

So that box you're talking about, that's the transmitter, instead of the handheld remote you had to carry this thing, so, you're riding horseback with this box, this thing, okay.

Speaker 2: 2:00:16

So you're riding horseback with this box, with this, okay, and uh, so I go out there and get shocked, you know. And so I said to dale one day I said hey, dale, I said damn, I've been going out there getting shocked every day. How about you take the collar out and see what it feels like? And he said I'll never forget what he said to me. And he talked kind of slow. Yeah now, george, he says you got to remember that this is a highly sophisticated piece of equipment and you're not qualified to hold on to the unit. You're, you're only used to getting shot. Hold on to the unit, you're only used to getting shot. So you go out there. So that's the way it was.

Speaker 1: 2:00:55

So you were the original tester for the original shot caller on dogs.

Speaker 2: 2:01:02

Yes, but anyway. After the test.

Speaker 1: 2:01:06

That is hilarious. How bad was it.

Speaker 2: 2:01:10

It wasn't too bad. Enough to wake you up in the morning he put it on low, you know.

Speaker 1: 2:01:15

Did you ever get it on?

Speaker 2: 2:01:16

high, no, and I didn't get shocked on high. Okay, I'd have never done it again, but anyway, nobody knows about this, about Dale being with this professor. Okay. And coming up with this idea of shocking dogs. Yeah, collar and it eventually became the outfit is in Tucson, arizona, and it's still that. What's the name of that collar? I'll think of it. But anyway, he and Dale got to where. That's what this was. Really.

Speaker 2: 2:02:02

And later on it got to be what there is today and Dale, this guy from the university, was to share this business. Well, it progressed, and every time Dale happened to be in Tucson he'd go to the office where they would begin to sell them and want to see the books. Well, the books were never available. There was some reason why, they wasn't available. So after about three times of going and Dale didn't get to see anything, he said I don't want anything to do with you guys. He walked out of it.

Speaker 1: 2:02:49

And those guys ended up probably patenting that, and now they have what Garmin or any?

Speaker 2: 2:02:54

other, what was before Garmin?

Speaker 1: 2:02:56

What was before Garmin?

Speaker 2: 2:02:58

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:03:00

I couldn't even tell you.

Speaker 2: 2:03:01

Garmin bought. It's a company, Ransom. Why don't you look up on your phone?

Speaker 1: 2:03:09

Use that phone number, Ransom.

Speaker 2: 2:03:11

Shark Collars, that's in Tucson, arizona.

Speaker 1: 2:03:16

Original shark collars and which ended up transferring to the GPS and then just everything evolved from there.

Speaker 2: 2:03:22

Everything evolved.

Speaker 1: 2:03:23

So how would it work? Would you just push that button and all the dogs are getting shocked? Or you could individually.

Speaker 2: 2:03:28

No, you'd have one collar. Oh, just one collar, one collar for that particular dog for the day.

Speaker 1: 2:03:34

Uh, would you just put it on your lead dog then you know you put it on the dog.

Speaker 2: 2:03:38

That was one that you knew was going to run deer.

Speaker 1: 2:03:42

Okay, so you just had to pick out your problem dog and that's how you're fixing your problem dogs. Yeah, interesting, did so? I mean, was it very? Was it a lot more successful doing that versus the old school way?

Speaker 2: 2:03:53

The old school was doubled up rope and whipping them, okay, and when? You whipped them. Usually, if one dog took off, they'd take all of them. Yeah. So you had to tie them all up and take one at a time, and whip Got it, you know it was hard on the dog. For sure A lot harder than I want to say it's not Unical, unical's something else.

Speaker 1: 2:04:24

That's interesting, though, that you were the test dummy for the shot callers.

Speaker 2: 2:04:28

Yeah, we were the first ones that done it. Yeah, yeah For the shot callers yeah, we were the first ones that done it.

Speaker 1: 2:04:31

Yeah, it says right here that Dale Lee and Frank Hoover back in the 1950s created the first e-callers. No kidding, and you were the tester for it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:04:45

Trying to think, trying to find the company. Yeah, what'd they call the company?

Speaker 1: 2:04:50

He was trying to look for it. That's pretty hilarious. So after you wrapped up your adventures down south, what happened after that?

Speaker 2: 2:05:01

Well, we were up on a mountain, cadena Mountains, out of Tucson, arizona, for the same thing to do summer. Okay. And there was an old sawmill up on the top of the mountain and there was a building. It had three or four stalls to keep your animals and there was an old mattress and springs up in a loft and that's where Dale and I slept. Really. That summer it was up on this mountain called Mount Lemmon.

Speaker 1: 2:05:37

God, you lived quite the life, huh.

Speaker 2: 2:05:39

Well, mount Lemmon. We rode every day from there and before the summer was over I happened to meet the girl that I eventually married. Her folks had a cabin up there and I began to see her and that eventually led to me leaving Dale and getting married.

Speaker 1: 2:06:10

That's where I met my wife. There, always a woman, yeah, always a woman Got rid of the dogs whole thing. All gone Every time. All gone to hell Every time. Got rid of the dogs, lost everything. Women every time. Yeah, how was that going?

Speaker 2: 2:06:32

How did that go? Well at first. You know, I left Dale, of course. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 2:06:39

And I had. Maybe I don't know how many folks I had. I had six or seven and then had some pups. But anyway, after I left, dale, dale come over one day before he was going to Mexico and he says to me he says, george, I'd like to buy that dog. His name's Reb. He said I'd like to buy Reb off of you. He said you ain't gonna be able to go do any big game hunting. He said you ain't going to be able to go do any big game hunting. He said sell me that dog. I said, okay, what do you give me for it? He said I'll give you 250 bucks. And this was in 63.

Speaker 1: 2:07:23

So that's a good chunk of cash.

Speaker 2: 2:07:25

Yeah, 63. And so I sold him. And so I sold him. And when Dale came back I don't know whether it was from Mexico or from the summer of training, or maybe- a year later or so.

Speaker 2: 2:07:43

I went over because I knew Dale would be home. I went over and I looked at all the dogs. I said to him I said Dale, I don't see Reb. And he said in his slow voice Now well, george, he says you know, he said I sold old Reb to Texas. And he said you know, the day that I bought old Reb he became a leehound.

Speaker 1: 2:08:13

What's a leehound?

Speaker 2: 2:08:14

A leehound is worth $750.

Speaker 1: 2:08:18

So you're making money on your dog, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Gotcha huh.

Speaker 2: 2:08:27

That was the end of that one. So anyway, I eventually I couldn't hunt and work, you know how that goes. You're lucky to get your dogs out, and if you don't, you know I go and look at different guys that's got hounds. And they tell me oh, I get the dogs out maybe once every two weeks or something like that. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:08:51

You don't have real good hands. You don't have them because you gotta, you gotta work them every day. When you work a dog every day, you can make a dog oh for sure, then they become a machine.

Speaker 1: 2:09:04

Yeah, so how long you been married? 61 years good for you, good for you, good for you, I guess, right, yeah?

Speaker 2: 2:09:15

I need a shock collar every night.

Speaker 1: 2:09:18

What's the secret? What is the secret to having a marriage for 61 years? I should probably be asking the wife, but let's get your opinion on what's made it work all these years, because I feel in today's day and age it's so easy for everybody to just pull the plug and work and go different directions for 63 years. How's that? How have you made it work?

Speaker 2: 2:09:41

well, now I'm gonna have to be careful here. I think Marie pretty much. Let me do whatever I wanted to do. The first 15 years we were married Okay, Until she got tired of it and one day she wiped her finger right across her forehead and said I've had it right up to here. I said, well, I guess it's time to change. Okay. And I changed.

Speaker 1: 2:10:21

Yeah, never since, huh.

Speaker 2: 2:10:24

Yeah, but Marie's always pretty much let me get into whatever I wanted to get into or do, yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:10:35

I think that's healthy, though I think a lot, you know, especially a guy like you there's a certain breed of of guys that just are never going to be caged yeah but she's got a shot caller on you. Yeah, they're really back every now and then, but you still need that freedom to run and, yeah, chase and and have it.

Speaker 2: 2:10:56

Live that life. I miss that more than anything. Getting old. Yeah. I mean, I can't just take off. Yeah. You know, I used to just take off. Now you can't do that anymore, for a lot of reasons. Things have changed. You can't set a camp up in the mountains for a whole summer or be in one place for all summer. We didn't ask anybody, we just went.

Speaker 1: 2:11:24

Yeah, and everything's locked up. You've got to have permits. Yeah, yeah, you've got to live that area of freedom before.

Speaker 2: 2:11:33

You know to tell you how Dale was well-known, I came into Tucson out of camp we'd come back from Mexico so I went up to see my sister drove up there. On the way up there I got pulled over by a state cop and I got out of the car. You could get out of the car back then, not anymore I got out of the car and he got out of the car.

Speaker 2: 2:12:02

You could get out of the car back then, not anymore. I got out of the car and he got out of the car and he's walking towards me and he said I've got you on a whole shitpot full of things. He said your taillights are out, your mirrors are broke off. He said I don't know how you can even drive on a public public street with that thing and I said well, I just come out of the mountains so this is your hound truck?

Speaker 2: 2:12:28

yeah, okay I said I just come out of the mountains and, uh, things are pretty rough back there. And he said what was you doing up there? And I said, well, I was hunting with dale lee. Oh, he said you hunted with dale? I said yeah. He said, oh my god, and we started talking and he got a rifle out of his car for me, for me to look at, and I said to him I said why don't you get? Write me a ticket. I said I'll take it back to dale and he'll have to pay for all this stuff, which he's going to do eventually. But give him a ticket, he said. Oh, he said I wouldn't give Dale a ticket.

Speaker 1: 2:13:11

He sold you that big of a name back then. Huh yeah, man, I can only imagine the things that you learned being under his belt like that.

Speaker 2: 2:13:18

You know, can you imagine having a picture in the paper? There's a picture of Dale and I sitting in front of hides on a string behind us, and it's in the Tucson Daily Citizen. You know, headline.

Speaker 1: 2:13:38

Do you have this picture?

Speaker 2: 2:13:40

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:13:42

Send me the picture I want to see this. See, but that back then it wasn't so scrutinizing you weren't the enemy for no for doing this today.

Speaker 2: 2:13:51

Heaven hides of jaguars in a newspaper especially jaguars.

Speaker 1: 2:13:56

I mean, oh my god, you, anything that's been a disney character and fuzzy and cute. I mean you are just crucified these days and people just don't understand. I mean, obviously a lot's changed and you've seen that evolution of yeah being published in a paper of being houndsman and being proud and representing a city or a state, that now it's oh my god, you post something and it's the end of the world.

Speaker 2: 2:14:19

You have every anti and yeah, remember that guy went here a while back. What did he do? He would shot that lion. He shot a lion and it got in the newspaper, was it?

Speaker 1: 2:14:31

the football player yes, yes, he has a picture of him holding it. It was in the backyard. I mean, he went worldwide for that. Yeah. I mean just it blew up, and I mean the stories for the good. But I mean, people don't see that. They see, yeah, they see anything now and you are just, I mean, oh, I've posted for things and the stuff that people wish upon my children for me hunting a mountain lion or a bear, something like that. It's just, it's disgusting I have.

Speaker 2: 2:14:58

If I talk about bear hunting to any people, I have to tell them it's all for fun. They don't be no shooting yeah we don't kill anything, no and they accept it a little bit, but they don't like it yeah, they, just they.

Speaker 1: 2:15:13

They don't understand. They don't you know, for us at least you know I I can't understand. Know the people that just? It's fascinating to me because if you sat down and had a conversation with them and they're there to protect these animals and we need to save them all, but you start asking them questions about the habitat, how these bears live or the cats live and and their movements and their in their patterns, and they don't know anything. They know nothing about these animals besides what they see on some documentary. And I take my kids out there and my kids can tell more about these animals, more facts about them, the habitats, the food. When they're going from grass to when the fawns are dropping, they're switching to calves. None of these people know any of this. But they're going from grass to when the fawns are dropping, they're switching to calves. None of these people know any of this. But they're the ones that are protecting and saving and all this stuff and they don't understand. Especially us as a family.

Speaker 1: 2:16:09

We're not just killing a bear like we, we, we eat bear. I think bears are great meat. I don't. I wouldn't probably mess with in alaska and especially on salmon runs and things like that. But but here in Idaho I mean we've never we can all of our bear. We eat everything. We're bringing the fat back. We're using all of that to melt down and make tallow with. I mean we're using so much of these, it goes down to the bones for us. I have a buddy that's a knife maker in California. I've been building knives with him for a very long time. I send him at the end of each season a box of all the femur and fib bones and all that. He petrifies them through this process where it hardens the bone and he's turning them all into knife handles. So it's like we're using. The only part we really don't use is the hides. I mean obviously we have them on the ground as rugs. I mean I have bears everywhere.

Speaker 2: 2:16:55

I mean kind of you know how it is you get a stack.

Speaker 1: 2:16:58

What do you with them? But we're using everything of these bears, all the way down to the bone, and then I post a picture of it and people just I mean they call me every word in the book and wish the most horrific things on my children and it's just like God. You have no idea what you're even talking about. And here you guys were down there just stacking jaguars and lining them up, Putting the newspaper over it for pins, and euros Times have definitely changed.

Speaker 2: 2:17:26

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:17:26

Yeah, he can say that.

Speaker 2: 2:17:28

For sure.

Speaker 1: 2:17:30

Well, sir, I appreciate your time.

Speaker 2: 2:17:33

This was a Well I don't get to. Very seldom I get to talk about it anymore. If I get a chance to talk, let me fix that for you. Oh, there you go, go. No, you're good. If I get a chance to talk about it, I I really like it oh shit, I mean, if you have more stories, I'll sit here all day most people don't understand it. They don't and they're not interested, you know.

Speaker 1: 2:17:55

So if you get somebody that's interested, it's fun I'm very interested and especially because you know you were hunting in an era that was like the last free range. And then you know I try to explain that how much has changed from when I grew up hunting to now with my kids. I'm like now I feel like, wow god, when I was young we used to, you know, and I take my kids back home to where I grew up. I grew up waterfowl hunting. I was a big waterfowl. We grew up on the canadian border in upstate new york, beautiful big water hunting. I mean, you're not. You can't even see the land on some of the areas where we're hunting out there. And it's like now you go and I talk to my dad it's like this is leased up, this is locked up by some outfitter and these kids are, you know, and you got to pay a ton to get in and you wear it. Just, it's definitely not the same and it sucks Even here. Bear hunting. Ransom and I we've talked bear hunting. It's changed so much. From where I'm at, especially if you're running baits or something like that, I do it a lot, especially for the kids. It's fun we bring in some kids that are battling cancer or disabled vets, whatever it is. It's easy to run them off a bait. Now it's like we'll be sitting on our spot and some guy will just come walking through in the middle of the stand and I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, oh, I'm hunting up here too.

Speaker 1: 2:19:05

It's like there's no courtesy anymore. People don't have any respect on the mountain. You know, I was raised. If you see somebody in an area, just go find another. They beat you to it. They get your ass up earlier. They, they're in there. They cut that track sooner than you. Don't try to cut around the backside and turn your dogs out, because you don't lose a cat in here now. Now it's like you're sitting on a point glassing somewhere. You'll have a truck pull right up next to you and five dudes get out and then they're all laughing, joking, glassing the same. And this is like the courtesy, the respect. All of that is just, and I think a lot of it has to do, obviously, with social media in the world that we live in now, because everybody needs that, wants to be something and prove something, and they got to have all of that. Back then. You guys were just doing it to do it. I mean, it was just that's, that was your love and passion. And if nobody knew about it, you were doing it regardless.

Speaker 2: 2:19:52

Now it's like you have to take a picture of it or it doesn't count I remember the first time, know now, they got these four-wheelers, they got everything to get up there.

Speaker 1: 2:20:03

Your four-wheelers were mules.

Speaker 2: 2:20:05

I remember I was mule backing and I heard this engine and I thought what the hell is that? And here come a guy on what they called a tote goat. A tote goat, do you remember those? Uh-uh, they were a two-wheelereler and that's what they was were they a wide wheel like or no?

Speaker 1: 2:20:27

no, no, I don't remember them as being oversized I don't know a tote goat but they're ransom will look at that send me a picture, show me a picture, ransom. We need, need the big screen in here to be able to pull things up. We're not on that level yet. You know, not yet, but a tote goat. What were your thoughts when you saw this coming up the mountain?

Speaker 2: 2:20:49

Well, it really was amazing. I thought what the hell is that doing?

Speaker 1: 2:20:55

up here You're like you're cheating son of a bitch, you are fighting a mule half the season trying to get that thing under control. Yeah, I could imagine what was it like like when you when was it when your hunting gear started to get better, or your boots? I mean because you started out in leather boots, work at laying brick. When do you remember when, like, things started to change and hunting gear kind of started to evolve?

Speaker 2: 2:21:23

not really no. When I I know tyler asked me, he said why, why did you? Uh, why did you sell your dogs and quit hunting? And I, because I did.

Speaker 1: 2:21:35

And I said well, I knew that's the tote goat right there you got him, yeah this guy comes riding up the mountain in that, yeah, on the mountain trail.

Speaker 2: 2:21:48

Anyway, I remember when I quit hunting, people have asked me why did you get rid of your dogs and just quit it all together? And I said well, I knew that there was no way I could hunt it like I did. And if I couldn't do it like I did it with, dale may want to do no point doing it.

Speaker 1: 2:22:10

Huh, no, you didn't even keep one hound, not a pup, nothing, really I left it all really, that was probably pretty rough for a while, uh you know, yeah, with the wife sitting here not so bad, but if she wasn't sitting, here would it have been worse yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:22:30

Marie was good about the dogs. Yeah, yeah when I had them yeah, that's a lot of food. Yeah, and you used to get like on Purina Saks. You used to get stickers weight sticker and you got money for that sticker. Oh really. Yeah, we'd collect so much of that dog food with the stickers, then we'd have enough money to go out.

Speaker 1: 2:22:58

Oh, that was the treat, huh, once you bought enough dog food.

Speaker 2: 2:23:01

Oh, that was the treat, huh. Once you bought enough dog food. Well, we didn't. When Marie and I first got married, we lived in a little trailer. Probably I'm going to guess it could be 25 foot maybe, okay. All it had was a bedroom and a kitchen and a living room was together and it had a little cabana on the outside. It had a shower bedroom and the kitchen and the living room was together and it had a little cabana on the outside that had a shower Really, and that was it.

Speaker 1: 2:23:28

Where was this at? In Tucson, okay, and how long were you guys there for?

Speaker 2: 2:23:34

I don't know. We slowly progressed, you know over the years?

Speaker 1: 2:23:40

Absolutely. How did you ask her to marry you?

Speaker 2: 2:23:44

Oh God, I don't remember.

Speaker 1: 2:23:46

Really that I just create a fight? No, I don't know you went way past that. I threw a letter. Say again I threw a letter when he was back in Indiana. Really, he wrote you a letter.

Speaker 2: 2:23:59

And we eloped to Nogales Arizona and got married in a civil service. Really, wrote you a letter and we eloped to Nogales Arizona and got married in a civil service. Really.

Speaker 1: 2:24:05

Yep Very romantic.

Speaker 2: 2:24:07

On the road.

Speaker 1: 2:24:11

I love it, I love it. And so after that house, I mean, you guys just started chipping away, huh. Yeah. What were you doing for work Land work Is that what you did for a career after that? Yeah, how long did you do that work Laying?

Speaker 2: 2:24:24

brick, is that what you did for a career? Yeah, how long did you do that for? Well, I actually was pretty close to the trade until I retired at 62 from all those years in between. Okay.

Speaker 2: 2:24:40

But in 1980, there's two trades to the brick trade. Okay, there's the trade that you see out here where schoolhouses and commercial buildings, and then the other part of the trade is working in the foundries and in laying fire brick or any work that's connected to heat. Because any unit that's connected to heat has to have an outside shell, and something has to protect that shell from the fire. Is that what?

Speaker 2: 2:25:22

you did and there's a lining that you do. There's all different types of linings. Well, I always uh, that kind of work was always shut down work. What do you mean by that? Like the, the sugar plants here, after they have a camp, a campaign, a campaign being when they run, make the beets into sugar. That requires in a certain area, that requires heat of 2,500 degrees. That say, a boiler that runs 25 degrees has to have an 8-inch lining, 9-inch lining, whatever is required. And after they run that campaign, they shut everything down. And when they shut everything down, that's when you go in and repair, because it's just brittle, because it gets burned up the lining.

Speaker 2: 2:26:18

No matter how good the lining, how good the work was to install it, it's going to burn out.

Speaker 1: 2:26:25

Yeah, they have to do that every time, every time, so every season. Technically we'll say for these plants here every sugar beet season.

Speaker 2: 2:26:31

once they process everything, you would come in and replace all that Right Now if it's in between, it's at a barrier, are you taking out the brick and replacing it, it then placing new brick in, or are you able to get in between the barrier? How does that?

Speaker 2: 2:26:51

work, no, you you tear everything out really and then put in a new lining. Really it could be, it can be brick or it can be gunite that you shoot on, and now they have a gun that shoots a plastic type material that you shoot on the wall and that's a good lighting, but anyway, it was always shutdown work. It was always overtime, usually around the clock seven days a week.

Speaker 1: 2:27:15

Because they're counting on you to get back up the faster you get back up, the better. Yep, because your time is money for these plants, yeah, so how long were you guys in Arizona for?

Speaker 2: 2:27:30

I think the first year we were married, honey, we came up that spring, the next spring I think, to here, yeah, to Pocatello, oh okay, and we rented a U-Haul and I, well, I said to Marie, I said, instead of staying down here all summer, and it's hotter than hell, let's go north and I'll get a job up there. Well, we pulled into Pocatello and they had just started a brick job on the liberal arts building. So there was a motel right across the street from that job. So I said, just pull in here, we'll stay all night, I'll go over there and go to work the next day and then we'll hunt you can hunt for a place to stay while I'm working.

Speaker 1: 2:28:26

The next day I went across the street, went to work really yeah did you plan on coming to edho, or did you guys just drive until you found somewhere that looked beautiful?

Speaker 2: 2:28:34

we just we just was looking for a job and being cool for the summer. So then we went back and forth for a while and then finally we moved up to Idaho for good. I think it was along about 72 that we moved to Idaho for good. And then later on I think it was about 82, maybe 83, we bought a home in Tucson. No, it had to be just before I retired, yeah, that's about right. And we bought a house in Tucson and we had bought a cabin close to Lava Hot Springs. I think.

Speaker 2: 2:29:27

Up in the mountains, right at Tree Line, about 15 acres with a log cabin. That's a beautiful little area in there. Oh, it was a beautiful place. So then we traveled back and forth, you know, down there in the winter, up here in the summer, and then finally we sold the cabin, and then we sold the house in Tucson and moved over here to Eagle how?

Speaker 1: 2:29:55

much. I mean, I know the answer to this, but how was it watching the state just change over the years and everything just evolve so fast?

Speaker 2: 2:30:08

Yeah, Well, you know, we've seen Tucson do that they would come up here and we've seen it happen up here, you know, and it's kind of sad anyway, that I think about the days that I was able just to go wherever.

Speaker 1: 2:30:31

I hear about the stories of like Eagle Road being a dirt road and one lane. I didn't see that, we didn't see that, yeah, because you guys were out east.

Speaker 2: 2:30:39

We come up, like I say, we came up here in about 72. Okay, you know lived over on the other side of the state. Yep. And then I met a fellow that knew the Tetonia Briggs area, victor Tetonia Driggs area. Victor knew that area this side of what. What's the mountains right there, tetons? Okay okay.

Speaker 2: 2:31:12

So we one summer we went up to do a building in up at Driggs. So you know we're right on the slope of that mountain and I fished every. I knew every mountain, every stream was drainage on that mountain. They were living the dream on that project and you know, boy, it was a great fly fishing. Yeah. You know Nobody. Oh, I caught some nice fish over there then.

Speaker 1: 2:31:41

See, you had all the virgin land and rivers and streams. Now it's before all this introduced crap. Now everything is. It goes two degrees warm and now everything's dying off and it's like what is? What were the fish doing when you were out there fishing? Now it's like they shut everything down and waters are too warm.

Speaker 2: 2:32:06

We went up a canyon that had a. There was a Girl Scout canyon up at the head of Darby. Oh, okay. I don't know if you know where. Darby is I know Darby yep. Up behind where that old drive-in is. Okay, the spud, you go to a show at night and the cows are mooing.

Speaker 1: 2:32:27

See, yeah, you know that would have been.

Speaker 2: 2:32:32

But anyhow, as we went up Darby Canyon, everybody was already up at this Girl Scout camp.

Speaker 2: 2:32:40

We were going to have just a cookout. So after I got out of the truck I said let me out halfway down and I'll walk up the river, walk up the canyon and fish on the way up. And after I guess this guy told Marie, he said well, I didn't tell George that this creek has been poisoned and there's no fish in it. He said he'll just have a nice fishing trip on the way out. So anyway, every hole had I was able to catch at least two native cutthroats.

Speaker 2: 2:33:22

Really, Every hole Really, and I had an old metal stringer, mm-hmm, and I kept fish back then. Mm-hmm and.

Speaker 2: 2:33:31

I had it on the back end of my Levi's and I'd reach back and pull it's like to pull my pants down. I had so many fish on it. I got up to camp and I don't know, I must have had 12 or so nice fish. You know, you put your finger in their gills and they're big down to your elbows, yep, and they were almost black. Oh yeah, being in, you know, that water, mm-hmm, for so long, I guess. Anyway, when I got up to camp where everybody was, I left the fish in the brush because I didn't know who was there exactly because I knew I had way too many.

Speaker 2: 2:34:16

And as I walked into camp I knew everybody, and so then I went back and got the fish and one of the old guys there that was the sheriff, that was his home, he was born and raised there. But anyway, when I walked into camp with that stringer he said you so-and-so, you've caught every fish in that creek. He's probably been throwing them back in. Yeah, but I hadn't, you know. I mean you could only catch a couple out of the hole. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:34:49

And you could throw in there for 15 times and run. You know they're stirred up. Mm-hmm. You know. So if you catch them, throw in. You didn't catch one, go to the next hole, just work your way up. Yeah, when Go in? You didn't catch one, go to the next hole Just work your way up. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:35:01

When you were running cats and bears and everything. Did you ever run into any of the law? Down there Were the fish and game even like a thing?

Speaker 2: 2:35:08

No, Never even worried about any of that stuff huh, Not even so much in the States. Really. You know everybody like when we went up to Blue River and Hannigan's the fishing game guys, they'd usually stop by camp, have coffee and talk a little bit.

Speaker 1: 2:35:34

Get to know you and actually have a conversation with you.

Speaker 2: 2:35:36

Yeah, most of them knew Dale anyway.

Speaker 1: 2:35:38

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:35:41

They made a remark about an old guy. I can't think Blue. Something was this guy's name, but I don't remember the last name. Anyway, they said what a good tracker he was and Dale said he ought to be. He's been chasing me for 30 years.

Speaker 1: 2:35:59

Did you guys ever get used? Did the state or government ever use your hounds for anything? Or was it just strictly private what you guys were doing?

Speaker 2: 2:36:09

What we were doing.

Speaker 1: 2:36:10

Yeah, and you had quite the adventure.

Speaker 2: 2:36:15

Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Speaker 1: 2:36:16

That sounds like it.

Speaker 2: 2:36:19

I'd like to Ransom. We'll have this fellow meet, Tyler Do.

Speaker 1: 2:36:25

I know Tyler. No, he's pretty pokey Okay.

Speaker 2: 2:36:31

Yeah, but he's got see the hounds that he has with bait. He brings in a trailer load, oh yeah, of bait.

Speaker 1: 2:36:42

Yeah, that's the way to do it I wish my trailer I don't have that luxury. I'm packing and the kids I make the kids pack everything and we probably do, I think, per bait, I think I want to say we're doing over 3 000 pounds of bait throughout the whole season. I don't let mine go dry at all. We're're constant.

Speaker 2: 2:37:00

I just he somehow he's got a connection that he buys from a factory that makes the ice cream cones, oh, yep, it breaks all the breakage and all that. He buys all that in a four by four crate Yep, and has a semi load of it.

Speaker 1: 2:37:24

That's nice. I got a buddy that works at a hostess facility so every time they they drop or restock the gas station shelves they have to pull everything off for some reason, and it's all good food. And so I go down and I'll load up a trailer and a truckload and we have all the garlic, bread and donuts and I mean you name it.

Speaker 1: 2:37:42

Yeah, yeah, that too it's perfect for them and they just they eat it up. But that's like my. One of my secrets to it is I just don't let anything go dry. You know we're in because those bears once they find that food source they're so competitive these days and there's everybody. I mean I'll have another guy in my canyon now, but you know they'll sit and they bait maybe once a week and I'll have a sow that'll come in with three or four cubs we actually had a sow for the last couple years. She'll have four or five cubs. I mean she comes in with a pack of cubs and she'll sit there and just she'll empty my whole barrel, pull everything out, and then she just walks off and those cubs will and there.

Speaker 1: 2:38:28

And so I've figured out ways to wire things through the bait hole so it slows them down. I put a yeah, I put a rebar on the inside so when they scrape up, when they get toward the top they can't scrape out, pulls everything out, so it keeps some in the bottom, like I've. They're genius little things. I've even strode, I've stroung a bait ball between two trees and I've got trail cam pictures of bear legs hanging because they scoot out on the cable and they'll chew that bait ball off. So you see, you've got a trail cam picture and there's just bear legs dangling in the air. I'm like you little sons of bitches, they'll do anything. They're a creative little animal. I mean, if they could find a way to get a claw in it or something, they're getting it open.

Speaker 2: 2:39:03

I got a big kick out of Ransom. I was telling Ransom about using the stick on the bears so he sent me a picture one day and he was up on his what do you call it, treestand. Yeah, he was up on it and he sent me a picture on my phone of a little bear at the bottom trying to come up the ladder and was fooling with his pack. When he sent it to me it said what do I do now? Yeah, we've had some pretty close and fun encounters with them. When he sent it to me, it said what do I do now?

Speaker 1: 2:39:41

Yeah, yeah, we've had some pretty close and fun encounters with them. I mean, they're a pretty curious animal, the young ones at least, those old ones. You've got to trick them a little bit and get them to you know.

Speaker 2: 2:39:53

That's all new to me, oh yeah. I had no idea that you could bait like that Really. Yep idea that you could bait like that really? Yeah, I have see tyler's dogs when you, when they run off that bait, his dogs don't have a nose, don't have a cold nose yeah, they just run it on site oh okay, that's nice they're seeing the bear when they're running, that's convenient the only thing is you got to have a vehicle that can get you around, Like he's got one of those.

Speaker 2: 2:40:27

well, it's a four-wheeler in the front, but it's got a bed on the back, has wheels underneath, like an Argo or something. He's got one of those.

Speaker 1: 2:40:37

Yeah, that'll get you around.

Speaker 2: 2:40:40

Sometimes the dogs are out of hearing in a matter of minutes.

Speaker 1: 2:40:44

Oh, I'm sure.

Speaker 2: 2:40:45

But it's amazing this handheld and all the dogs are on it. Watch everything. I don't have to get shocked before I go there.

Speaker 1: 2:40:53

You go that is a hilarious story. I'm glad we covered that Well. Thank you very much for coming on and telling some of your stories. I'm, oh, I'm very grateful to hear that, and thank you for your service and everything that you've done and just well, thank you the quiet. Quite the wild and crazy life I got.

Speaker 2: 2:41:16

If you got a minute, I have all the time in the world. Uh, I'm going to tell you a story about losing some hounds.

Speaker 1: 2:41:24

Okay, I was going to ask you that earlier if you've ever lost any off cliffs or anything like that.

Speaker 2: 2:41:31

The best hound that Dale says he ever had was a dog named Pilot, and it went off a cliff Really. But anyway, this other deal. We were on a Jaguar race and all at once we ran into a bunch of pole cutters that were cutting poles in the swamp for the tobacco to dry off when they put the tobacco up on it. Anyway, we heard these natives start saying catch the dogs, they're worth money. And so right away the dogs quit, you know, quit on the track because they were hollering at them.

Speaker 2: 2:42:15

So we were right there, me and Phyllis, and the native, the native Yep, and we got the dogs back, hollering at them and got them to us. We were close enough and we got all the dogs but two, and one was black and tan, named Rokey. He only had one eye, and the other dog was a walker hound, her name was Sadie. And so we lost those two and we went back to camp and we figured these pole cutters were from a little town that was on the edge of the swamp called Mexicatiton. When we got back to Camp, dale, you and Dan, there was a guy that was with us that was from Nevada. I can't think of Dan's last name. I can't think of Dan's last name, but anyway, dan had hunted quite a few lions and he worked with an old hunter from Nevada that was named Wiley Carroll, who was pretty famous in Nevada.

Speaker 2: 2:43:31

Okay, and so Dan and I took a boat, we went down to the island where the natives lived. It was a little town. It had maybe 10, 12 buildings and we walked up to the buildings and as we passed people, we'd ask them in a kind of broken like. Neither one of us was very good with the Spanish. We could get our story across and we could tell that they didn't even want to listen to us. It wasn't a good environment for us to even be there.

Speaker 1: 2:44:12

Really, so you could tell immediately that they didn't want anything to do with it.

Speaker 2: 2:44:15

You could kind of tell. I doubt very much if the kids had even seen a white man. Oh okay, I doubt very much if the kids had even seen a white man. Oh, okay, you know. And so eventually we went over and decided to have a beer in this little canteen and it was just. It was probably a little bit bigger than this, but not much. It was just like a room and it had a dirt floor. It had swinging doors when you went in and there was a little bar over at the side and there was a couple Mexicans having a beer. So we got us a beer and drank it standing there at the bar and we turned around to go out and there was a Mexican standing next to these doors and he stepped over in front of these doors and he stepped over in front of these doors and he had a, probably a 38, spatial, because they're not allowed to have anything larger than a 38 in Mexico themselves.

Speaker 2: 2:45:14

So it was probably a 38 semi automatic pistol. It just had the handles to come out. Stood in front of that door and we're standing side by side looking at him and it seems like a few minutes passed and Dan always wore like a leather jacket that had some fringe on it.

Speaker 1: 2:45:42

you know A cowboy jacket.

Speaker 2: 2:45:44

Cowboy jacket and had a hat that had the studs on it and all kind of a city cowboy. But he had a Colt semi, I mean a Colt single action revolver, okay, with about with an eight inch barrel revolver with about with an eight inch barrel, and so we're still once Dan pulls his coat back. You know, there's that.

Speaker 1: 2:46:11

He's lived for this moment.

Speaker 2: 2:46:12

Yeah, I'm looking at him and this guy, you know, I'm thinking, oh God damn, we're in a gun fight. You know, but I'm thinking, oh God damn, we're in a gunfight. But the guy finally steps aside. Seems like minutes.

Speaker 2: 2:46:32

I'm sure, and anyway, we walked out and then we walked pretty fast, watching your back, getting back to the boat, and we got out Anyway, getting back to the boat, mm-hmm, we got out, anyway. We got back to camp, dale said do you hear anything? Or find out where them dogs were? We said no. He said, well, you can go back down there tomorrow. I think we both said at the same time no, we're good, we're not going down there anymore. Yeah, but that was we finally. We went a lot of times. If you lose dogs, even in mountains, if you lose a couple dogs and you get on a race the next day or two on another race, those dogs that are lost will hear those other dogs and they'll come to him no kidding and uh, when we got to the tree, sadie was there really and uh, but okie, never.

Speaker 2: 2:47:36

She don't know what happened, okie, but sadie showed up at the tree so we got her back.

Speaker 1: 2:47:42

So you, being a rowdy, rambunctious younger man, do you guys ever get in any good fights while you're out just running amok in these towns and villages and stuff? No, really no, I find that hard to believe.

Speaker 2: 2:47:54

That was the only. That was the only, really Only one that we that gunfight was enough. We didn't need any more.

Speaker 1: 2:48:04

Yeah, Called it quits after that.

Speaker 2: 2:48:08

Really that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, I don't think you do when you're in foreign country much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and if you're in, like here, around here, most of the guys know each other.

Speaker 1: 2:48:22

And you ran away with a legend too, so it's not like you're trying to put a bad rep or taste on his name. So yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:48:29

Not trying to get into too much. No, Dan was pretty particular about who came to his camp. I could imagine If he wasn't the right kind of person to be in camp. He didn't stay very long.

Speaker 1: 2:48:39

Yeah, took him for a walk, the person to be in camp. He didn't stay very long. Yeah, took him for a walk. You left. Yeah, yep, well, thank you very much.

Speaker 2: 2:48:47

I enjoyed the hell out of it Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 2:48:49

This was a great time.

Speaker 2: 2:48:50

I don't know about the girls in Ransom. They probably got bored.

Speaker 1: 2:48:54

Yeah, it's not about them.

Speaker 2: 2:48:56

That's right.

Speaker 1: 2:48:58

They'll have their time. My daughter gets to sit here and listen to every one of these crazy stories anyway, so that's why she's got all the blankets she's always bundled up sitting in here. Now what are you going to do with this? We have one more guy ahead of you, so in two weeks this will air. I'll send you guys a link of it, so you'll have everything. We'll put it on YouTube and you get to watch, and we have this story documented. Some old legend hunters that were running the swamps and jaguars.

Speaker 2: 2:49:28

So yeah, that'd be fun.

Speaker 1: 2:49:28

Be fun to have yeah, you'll get it, you'll get a link and we'll get it all to you guys. And, um, yeah, that's kind of the whole point of this and so, like we we were doing this out of a studio, we've been converting this slowly. Hopefully Sunday we're going to transform this whole entire room. We're about 90% ready. This whole wall is going to be like an acoustic wall. We'll have a barn wood behind you. I got a backdrop from our old trade show. I took that apart, so that'll go behind me. We got a big neon light that's going to go here. Hopefully this weekend we'll be finished up in here.

Speaker 1: 2:49:59

We we just said screw it and we started doing it and you know, my daughter's taking over as the producer of it and we have no idea what we're doing half the time and still figuring shit out as we go. But we make it happen and we get to capture really cool stories and that's kind of what I wanted to do with this is just sit down with anybody. You know, you see some of these shows and they all they have is big celebrities or politicians and all this stuff on there, which is great, you know. I mean people want to hear their voices, but there's so many guys like yourself and ransom and page. Everybody's got something that they've gone through. Or you know, I've sat down with women that have gone through trauma with their childhood and to a vet losing his leg and we had a guy like the dog stepped on, ied next to him and blew him up and just everybody's got a crazy story. And that's what we want to capture here with the show and just give everybody a platform and to be able to tell something. And we get so many crazy emails.

Speaker 1: 2:50:50

Like when I started this I'll be honest, I'm not even like a big podcast watcher myself. I have one of my best friends. He's got a show, so I always listen to his and whenever we air something, I'm always like, oh cool, that was a lot of fun. Like we get to have a really good conversation. And then we get these emails that come in if people are like I've never thought I'd be able to connect with somebody on this level, or this guy went through exactly what I experienced, or I went through the same trauma as her as a kid, and so it's it's awesome to be able to know that people can connect with anybody and obviously, with my following, I have a huge hunting following.

Speaker 1: 2:51:22

So I'm sure a lot of guys will get a kick out of hearing some some just some old stories from you know old mexico and like that's the stuff that I love. I love hearing things and you know, especially being a guy, I don't guide as much anymore but you know guiding from on the mexican texas border to you know oregon blacktails. I like to jump around, experience different things and you know there's always client stories and you know dealing with different personalities and people. It's you never know, like what you're going to do in those worlds. So I like to capture a lot of that type of stuff and just hear stories well it uh, you guys, the day and age of hunting with hounds for me.

Speaker 2: 2:52:01

Me, I mean, I could. First time I went with Tyler. We're riding in a truck and we're catching bears.

Speaker 1: 2:52:07

You're like never in my life. Oh wow, when has this been?

Speaker 2: 2:52:11

Yeah, he asked me one day. He said what do you think Dale would think of this? I said he's got to think it's really good, it's really good. Yeah, I said he's got to think it's really good, it's really good. I mean, when you're not trying, I don't know if you've ever rode horseback chasing dogs. I had a lot of friends down in Tucson, a lot of cowboy friends, and they were always kidding me about never riding in an arena.

Speaker 2: 2:52:42

You know, they'd say, but you're gonna come down, ride with us in the arena. And I'd say, just after you chase the hounds.

Speaker 1: 2:52:49

And they'd say, no thanks, yeah, nobody wanted to do that it's a different world and one of the worst, actually the worst time I've ever done in my life was a mountain. I took my wife with me and it was. It was the worst time I've ever done. It was the most miserable. It was a high of, I want to say, with the wind chill was like negative 40. We're up in casper, wyoming and it was the last week of december and we I told the wife we were still living in california at that point and she didn't have any gear and I'm like, hey, you got to get on and get some gear, like it's, this is real hunting, you're coming with me. And so we went up there and we ended up cutting out. We cut these tracks at like 430 in the morning we sat and waited for a son to come up, turn the hounds out and immediately off to the races.

Speaker 1: 2:53:39

These dogs crossed two mountain ranges and treat a cat on the back side. Like I said, it was like a high of negative 40. It was so cold. Everything was frozen solid by the time we got their water for everything, snacks, everything was just frozen. We ended up getting to the cat. It was incredible the the cat would treat on a big like a ponderosa or a big pine, but it was right on the cliff below us so we were almost eye-level with the cat. It was a younger Tom and you know I just cats are like. I don't need to kill more than one cat, so I wanted to make sure it's the right one. So we ended up passing on the cat and when those dogs we think I finally got to the cat at one point on the first mountain range two of the hounds jumped down into like this v and they couldn't get back out.

Speaker 1: 2:54:32

Then the whole pack kept going and so by the time we get to the cat we've spent all day walking. I mean I think we did. That was like 11 miles to get to the cat. Then we come back and I'm pole stalling in snow up to my thighs, like every step I'm breaking through just crust. Everybody else is light enough to just walk on this. And every now and then they break through like, oh, this sucks. And I'm my whole day I'm drenched, negative 40 degrees and I'm soaking wet like I'm stripping down to like my marina wool base layer. That's all I have on. I ripped off half my mustache at one point because it was just giant like frozen chunk of snot and I ripped out it's hanging off with, like the, my hair just balled up in it.

Speaker 1: 2:55:15

We end up getting back to the truck and my buddy's like dude, we got to go get these other two dogs. They could, he, he's like they could possibly be on another cat because he's like these two have been. They do it all the time. They'll split off and the whole pack will go. They'll go after one cat. So we hike like another eight miles in to get to these hounds and we get there and they're ledged out on this cliff like 60 feet up and that's when we hit the start of fire, melt. Some food and snacks, even like your beef sticks were frozen solid. My Nalgene bottle is frozen solid, everything is just frozen. So we get there. We can't get these dogs off this cliff. We have to hike all the way out in the dark.

Speaker 1: 2:55:53

I think we got back to the truck at like 1 in the morning and we found this cat track at 4 in the morning the day before. My wife is over it, she is over it, I'm over it. The next morning I get my buddy, we go to this utility company, a lineman company, and we ask for harnesses and ropes, which they gave us. We got snow. We brought two snowmobiles, snowmobile back into the dogs. We go in the next morning and we're calling and calling hauling and these dogs are dead. They're frozen solid.

Speaker 1: 2:56:27

My buddy's just devastated. He's like, fuck man, I lost my dogs. Like those are my two best dogs. I'm feeling horrible like we didn't even kill a cat. I passed on the cat and he loses two dogs, so he's super bummed. The right is like we're getting ready to leave. We hear that. I hear this little whimper of a dog and I'm like dude, I hear something and we look in this dog, this hound, sticks its head over the wedge like like shivering, and he's like, holy shit, one's alive. And then the second one pokes its head out and he's like, oh my god, they're alive. Like you can just see the relief in his face. You know, know, because I'm sure with you, certain houndsmen are different. Some look at the hounds as tools, but some of them are like they become part of your family, like that's, that is your hound and they'll do anything to get these hounds.

Speaker 1: 2:57:11

So we had to go around the backside of this mountain coming from the top and we're above the dogs and we're, like these cedars, right on the edge of this cliff, and so he literally gets in this harness and I I had a gopro camera and I put it on just in case, like I let go and he died, like this would be documented. I had no idea what I'm doing. I wrapped this around rope around a tree. I had a rigger. I used to wear a rigger's belt back then I didn't even know how to wear it. You use a fucking rigger's belt, throw it through it.

Speaker 1: 2:57:43

And he's like don't drop me. And I'm like zzz, zzz, zzz, like bark's coming off the tree, the whole cedar tree's shaking. You know those things are like the roots are like this, getting some cracks. And I lower him down to the dogs, like 20, 25 feet down. He gets on this little ledge and they had pulled all the pine needles and everything in. He said they'd built like a little nest and they must have just balled up for the whole night. And then he hooks the dog on and I, freaking, pulled the dog up. They're all choked out by the time. They got to me, like, bring him back to life. It was the worst time I've ever been out of my life.

Speaker 2: 2:58:17

Yeah, I'm glad it wasn't there.

Speaker 1: 2:58:20

Yeah, it was miserable. That was to this day, when we're done. If you ask a wife the worst hunt she's ever witnessed in her life, she'll say a mountain lion hunt in Wyoming. It sucked, that's not fun.

Speaker 1: 2:58:33

No, and I ended up killing a cat with my buddy a couple years ago two of my good buddies, and it was literally we'd drive for three or four days, cut out on some few tracks, nothing. We're headed back to camp and we cut a track like right on the road. We treated this thing 400 yards off the road, poop arrowed it, walked the whole cat out right to the eat. I was like this is great, like made up for that time.

Speaker 2: 2:58:53

But yeah, you know you were talking about how you treat dogs, how some people treat their dogs, the difference in Dale and Clell about how they handle their dogs. The time that I was with Dale I might have seen him three or four times actually reach down and pat a dog on the head. He just didn't do it, and Clell would have his dogs all around him. He just didn't do it and Clell would have his dogs all around him. He spent these dogs and those dogs minded a hell of a lot better than Dale's did.

Speaker 1: 2:59:34

Why do you think that is?

Speaker 2: 2:59:37

Clell could call his dogs in and Dale's dogs was hard to call in and I think it's because he didn't pay any attention to them. They were like you say, they were tools, mm-hmm, you know.

Speaker 1: 2:59:51

I've seen it. You know where guys I mean they just the way that some dogs are treated. You're just like, oh geez, all right. And then you have. I have buddies these are true houndsmen buddies that live in colorado. They run their dogs all year long. I mean they're just on bears.

Speaker 1: 3:00:04

They actually work for the state and they're able to go in and run them on nuisance bears all year round and their dogs are on the couch in the house sleeping in bed with them I believe, that and they're some of the best and I mean, but they can, they're a trained pet, but at the same time they are a hound and they they will be in those mountains chewing on bobcats and, yeah, mountain lions, getting tore by bears, and they come home at night and they're on tall. You got a whole pack of them sitting on the couch. All this relax and perfectly fine. And then I've seen some where those guys will just beat these shit out of those hounds. They live in a kennel out back, never even get touched, and but they're a great hound too. So I guess, teach their own and whatever their style is yeah, I, I, I like to believe in petting the dog I think it comes down to like a like, a love or respect and a nurture thing.

Speaker 1: 3:00:53

That dog's going to work for you harder if it knows that you're on that same page and same level. That's just my opinion on it. I'm not, I'm definitely far from a houndsman, but yeah well, sir, thank you again. Appreciate the conversation, thank you that was fun. How long did that go?

Speaker 2: 3:01:15

I forgot the set o'clock, 3 hours and 3 minutes.