#42 - Overcoming Odds: From The Low Life of The Streets to The High Life of Success w/ John McDaniel

Growing up in the heart of Texas, John McDaniel faced more challenges than most can imagine, from being born a stillborn to surviving harsh realities on the streets at a tender age. But through grit and determination, John has transformed these adversities into a life of resilience and success. In our conversation, he shares candid stories from his upbringing in Stephenville, his journey through Tarleton State, and the significant impact of law enforcement work in Amarillo. John’s journey is a testament to perseverance, as he shares the difficult choices and transformative experiences that led him from a troubled childhood to becoming a respected figure in business coaching and motivational speaking.

Our discussion takes unexpected turns as John recounts his adrenaline-fueled days in law enforcement, navigating the streets of Amarillo without the aid of modern technology and facing high-stakes operations with S.W.A.T and undercover teams. From high-speed chases and confronting drug cartels to experiencing the intense psychological challenges of undercover work, John opens up about the unpredictability and dangers inherent in police work. His stories of resilience extend beyond personal anecdotes, offering insights into the broader implications of law enforcement on community interactions, and the dual roles officers play in maintaining safety amidst chaos.

This episode also highlights a poignant narrative of self-sufficiency, underscored by John's experience of confronting a staged insurance fraud incident that underscored the complexities of interpreting and navigating legal systems. John’s journey from law enforcement to his current role as a business coach serves as an inspiring blueprint for anyone looking to overcome personal and professional hurdles. Through his stories, listeners will find an exploration of strength, growth, and the powerful drive to not only survive but thrive despite the odds.

To learn more about John and his Life Coaching and Mentorship skills please visit:
https://www.facebook.com/forgedphoenixlife
https://www.instagram.com/forged.phoenix/

Chapters

• 0:09 Life Experiences and Stories
• 10:30 Surviving on the Streets and Working
• 22:18 A Tough Transition and Graduation
• 27:44 Overcoming Challenges and Pursuing Education
• 41:47 Transitioning to Law Enforcement
• 51:46 Police Officer Training and Patrol Experiences
• 58:32 Patrol Experiences and SWAT Transition
• 1:05:17 SWAT and Crisis Intervention Experiences
• 1:17:56 Dealing With Drug Cartels and Gangs
• 1:21:39 Undercover Operations in Illegal Gambling
• 1:31:21 Sim Rounds and Night Mission Training
• 1:40:28 Undercover Operations and Drug Busts
• 1:53:12 Misunderstanding Leads to Legal Trouble

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:09

well, john, thank you for joining us yeah I'm excited for this one because you have quite the the life experiences and stories. We met plenty. Yeah, I'm sure we met at a networking event with matt schneider one of his masterclasses Absolutely and so, yeah, it was awesome. We talked briefly there and I was like, oh, I got to get you on.

Speaker 1: 0:31

And so something that I do here on the podcast with our platform and hopefully other podcasts catch on is I offer veterans, law enforcement, veterans, law enforcement and anybody that has a small business that's served our country in some sort of way, to be able to send us products or businesses, apparel, you name it and it's just a free way of me being able to help the veteran or law enforcement community. So we got sea state coffee. He's a recon marine got out so he sends everybody home with a bag of coffee and a couple of uh, cold brews which are caffeine packs, so just be careful, I would not drink those past like 10 in the morning. And then we got the war machine, which he's the platoon cigars. He is a marine, uh, combat marine got out, became a cop in chicago, got shot in the line of duty, him and his partner. Bullet grazed his head. I believe the bullet got lodged in his partner's head. Um, then he started. Now he does cigars, and so I'll make sure you get to go home with that and enjoy some, some stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:28

I had another veteran that just recently sent us some clothes. He's a um it's god fearing lifting club, so I'll make sure to see if we got a shirt for you. So, yeah, so I just try to give back to the community any way we can. I feel like if there's more platforms that were just offering law enforcement, veteran businesses something, I feel like if somebody sees it wants to order a cigar or some coffee or get pick up a shirt from anybody that we help promote, it's just doing our little part. So, yeah, it's a great. I like to set everybody home with a guest, and I got some shirts and hats for you that I just did not grab. So, but, man, let's, uh, I guess, jump into. I guess you just give me a little intro who you are, and then we'll just we're going to dive into your life because it's it's a pretty good one sweet man.

Speaker 3: 2:05

Yeah, uh, so john mcdaniel, that's me um grew up in texas, so, apart uh, central texas, stevenville, texas, primarily, so that's I would say. Most of my childhood was in stevenville, texas, so what's that near for anybody that?

Speaker 3: 2:21

doesn't know. Uh, for those that don't know, it's it's really close to well. Uh, you may know where this is at. You know where glenrose texas is? I do know, okay, so you know the ranch out there. I actually uh built the gym. When they built that ranch, really I was in college and I they called me up and I put in, I built everything and built that gym for them really anyway it's it's 30 miles. Stephenville is 30 miles from Glen Rose oh, okay, so.

Speaker 3: 2:50

Central Texas. Um, and for the rest of y'all that don't know where Glen Rose is, it's, it's not too far from Dallas, fort Worth. It's about an hour hour and a half from Dallas, fort Worth. Yep, um grew up there. Um went to high school there. We'll get into more of that. But uh went to tarleton state university that's where tarleton is in stevenville, texas. Graduated from college, took off, went to amarillo law enforcement and uh was in law enforcement, had a career there, met my wife there, amy and uh after, after law enforcement, moved up to Dallas-Fort Worth area, weatherford, texas, and I was up there for about a year doing business stuff, business coaching, traveling, speaking at conferences, and then we had met Matt Snyder at an event we'd come up here to. I'd never been to idaho.

Speaker 3: 3:47

I'd watched some weird documentary called idaho uh and I thought it was going to be about potatoes, right, and uh, clearly it was not, it was about mountains. Anyway, got up here, um, went to this event and then about nine months later, decided we wanted to move to Idaho really here we are.

Speaker 1: 4:06

It's a beautiful place it is. It is a beautiful place. It sucks how fast it's growing and developing. We got here right before the boom and you know, so we thought it was, you know, home. This is our new area, but, yeah, it's growing a little fast for us and so I think we're gonna. We've been looking at maybe getting either either out of this area or heading back east. So just too much hustle and bustle. That's why we left where we were when I got out of the military and came here, and then we're like God, what is going on? It's happening. It's happening here too. So, yeah, all right, man, let's start right from the beginning. Kid growing up, how was Texas? How was that part of the woods?

Speaker 3: 4:42

texas. Texas was good. I mean, um, my childhood, in life not so much, but texas was good, um, growing up, you know, when I was a kid uh, starting off, I guess, technically I was um, I was born. I was a stillborn really. So my father like hightailed it when I was born. He just left my mother. They lived in a station wagon doing drugs, really, and I was born. I was like three Things have changed. I was like three and a half pounds when I was born. I was born dead, no kidding. So challenges right from the get-go, right out of the bat. But mom gave me away, lived still in Texas, lived with a grandmother that I didn't really know. After that it was my real father's grandmother. Three years old she came back and got me. We moved to a new city in Texas, new town in Texas, and then, when I was about five, the stepdad came to life, into into our life oh okay, how did that?

Speaker 1: 5:50

that could go. Either way, I feel like you hear those stepdad stories and it was incredible, or?

Speaker 3: 5:56

absolute hell. Yeah, I was. It was not incredible. It was the moment I met that dude. You know, I just knew and I think I think I'd been even at that age, I'd been through enough, um, kind of strange things that you know as kids. I can remember having a sense for this guy. This is, this is not right. My mom had dropped me off at uh and uncles from my real father's side first time I'd met them that I can remember.

Speaker 1: 6:27

And uh, she came back three months later and she was married and your mom just drops you off at an uncle and comes back three months later, married, yeah. So what's it like living with some strange man? How old are you at this age? Five, five years old. Dropped off at an uncle. You don't even know was he married or just an uncle oh, he was married.

Speaker 3: 6:47

Okay, he was married. Uh had some kids and it was actually great okay. So it was a good situation, yeah, okay I had some, some cousins that I didn't know. So me and one of my cousins, we were about the same age and so what we do, we just do what boys do. They lived out in the country. So we were out, you know, chasing wild animals and uh, playing in the mud and all the, all the fun stuff, and then and then it was just like life changed uh you know, got picked up and from the moment I met that dude I knew really it's just bad and and it started off bad right, right out of the bat.

Speaker 1: 7:20

Um so so there was no easing into it with him, you know, it was just straight. What was his problem? Drugs, alcohol, I mean both, both drugs, alcohol.

Speaker 3: 7:29

And the guy was. He came from a really not good family, really wealthy family, um college education, was an engineer by trade, although I don't believe I ever said, I don't think I ever knew he worked For the longest time. I had no idea what he did Really. I didn't even know he had an education. All he did was drink and do drugs.

Speaker 1: 7:54

Was he abusive? Oh yeah, so he'd take it out on you. Yeah, were you the only child?

Speaker 3: 8:00

No, I had a sister, have a sister. She's still alive. I don't get to see her. She moved that uncle that I stayed with. She moved in with him and his family when I was about seven. So she was gone and out of the picture from that and she was four years older. She's four years older than I am. So, yeah, I was kind of the only child at that point. But you know, for looking back in retrospect, and even then, even though I was the younger brother, I was pretty protective. So when the beatings were thrown out like, I was more than happy to jump in the way, really, because I just didn't.

Speaker 3: 8:40

I mean I cared for my sister. I didn't want that to happen to her.

Speaker 1: 8:51

Why not me?

Speaker 3: 8:52

so, uh, and then so shortly after two years later, she's, she's gone so, and there's no way for you going with I know, I mean I guess not.

Speaker 1: 8:56

I didn't know what was even happening I just knew like, hey, yeah, I guess you're right, seven years old, you don't know she's leaving.

Speaker 3: 9:03

I'm like, all right, cool, so good for her. So yeah, how long did that continue for, until I left, when I was 14.

Speaker 1: 9:14

Really, that's a long time to deal with that. Yeah, how big were you at 14? Did you put on any size by that point, or are you still a little kid?

Speaker 3: 9:22

No 14 I was drinking in bars Really.

Speaker 1: 9:27

Yeah, I could. I guess Texas, yeah, is probably a common thing out there. You know, you throw on a cowboy hat.

Speaker 3: 9:33

You know a little brush popper, and you know cowboy boots and walking.

Speaker 1: 9:42

You know I was 6'1" and probably about 175 pounds. How big was your?

Speaker 3: 9:45

mom's stepdad or your stepdad. He was about 6'2". Okay, so he was a bigger dude too. Yeah, he was a bigger guy, but we got in a little bit of a scuffle right at the end of that when I left and he didn't make it out of that very well, Really. So I just saw red. I finally all that rage and all that anger man. It was boiling it up and it finally just came out.

Speaker 1: 10:08

I could imagine yeah, it's a long I mean your whole childhood of dealing with a drug addict, drunk stepdad, that's putting hands on you. I mean. That's why I was asking. I was wondering how long it was going to take to when it came to a head.

Speaker 3: 10:21

Yeah, yeah, that was it. It just finally. I mean, I was already, I was already working. I was. I've been working since I was eight. Um, you know, cleaning floors in kmart. God just paid me cash. I'd go in and in the evenings and nights really close down eight years old. Yeah, buffing floors. You know little things. They told me, like if you find something small in the aisle, you can just pick it up and keep it, and so there were little things like that. That was kind of exciting.

Speaker 3: 10:47

I would help him out at Brunner Chevrolet. They'd also clean the floors there in the evenings and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 10:54

Were you able to keep your money or was this coming back and like helping support your?

Speaker 3: 10:58

mom I would keep as much as I could, but generally they'd find it okay and and it was gone.

Speaker 1: 11:06

Yeah, so drugs and alcohol? Yeah, that sucks, but at least you, I mean, you're grinding it out at such a young age, oh, yeah, you know, I mean I.

Speaker 3: 11:13

I just I had to get shoes, I had to get clothes, I had to get stuff that I needed and you know, there were times where I remember they'd be gone for two weeks. I wouldn't even see them for two weeks. I was nine years old.

Speaker 1: 11:25

Really.

Speaker 3: 11:26

And so what do you do? You know you got to try to eat, you got to try to survive. You know you play little games.

Speaker 1: 11:34

God, two weeks left alone at nine years old. Yeah. That is wild to me, yeah.

Speaker 3: 11:42

It's not strange to me. When people say it's weird, I mean I do understand that now, but at the time it was just life.

Speaker 1: 11:51

Just life. I mean you look at any of these kids that grow up in absolute horrible conditions. They don't know any better. I mean you look at these kids. When I was in Afghan we would see these kids. I used to call home and it would tear me up because there was this road that we were driving. I mean it was feet thick of sludge. They would just walk out every day and dump their feces and trash and just along the side of this road and every day when we leave our compound, I mean these little girls would be in it. They're up to their knees just digging through sludge, just trying to find anything they could use or burn or anything, and so but that was their life and I try to explain that like that's why I feel it's so important for people to be able to travel and see how everybody lives, and so then you know how good you really have it right, yeah and we really do.

Speaker 3: 12:31

Uh, my story is by far not even close to the worst thing oh, for sure you know I'm I'm grateful for what I went through. Uh made me who I am today.

Speaker 1: 12:41

Absolutely fun at the time, but it it helps me now it was setting some pretty heavy foundations. I could imagine at that age yeah, so 14 you get into it with your stepdad and where'd you go from there?

Speaker 3: 12:53

so we had actually moved from Stephenville okay, uh, we had moved about six, eight months before we've moved out to a little little tiny town out in the middle of central Texas called Mullen. Mullen, texas Lived out in the middle of nowhere, and so I threw everything I could in a bag, and I don't know where it came from. I had an old green Army duffel bag that I found, and all this stuff Stuffed it with everything I could threw it on my back and hitchhiked back to Stephenville.

Speaker 1: 13:26

Really, that's where I knew I was from.

Speaker 3: 13:27

It's home, yeah, yeah, and I lived on the streets for a while. Really, I had about $514 and some odd change in cash I don't know some odd change in cash Hiked back. City Park in Stephenville had a rec center, you know, like most small town places. In that rec center it's a basketball court and they have a stage on one end. Well, the stage has stairs that go down around the back and on the outside there's stairs that go down to like a basement area.

Speaker 3: 14:08

Okay, well, the back of that stage there are windows and you could go in there during the day and play basketball, do whatever you wanted. Then they close it up at night and leave there's no alarms to that place, you know, whatever.

Speaker 3: 14:20

So I'd unlock those windows in the in the back and then crawl in. You can go down the stairs and I just lift myself up and crawl in. I could sleep in the rec center and they had little mats, you know. They had a mat about a little alarm clock, a little wind up alarm clock. Set the alarm, get up, crawl out the window. They had showers they'd open up so so I'd go shower, clean up and take off.

Speaker 1: 14:43

You're doing this at 14?.

Speaker 3: 14:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:48

Damn man, Did you go back to Walmart or Kmart and continue to work, or were you just on the streets?

Speaker 3: 14:56

No, I was on the streets but, I was looking for work, I mean anything I could do I'd go around and find. Whatever I could find, I re-enrolled myself back into school. Really there, good for you. And you know, I don't know how they do things now, but back then we're talking early 90s and I'd already been in the school system, so I just went back. I was like, hey, I'm back, my parents are busy, so nothing's changed.

Speaker 1: 15:22

And this is a small town living too.

Speaker 3: 15:26

So I mean, yeah, I get you know. So nothing's changed. And this is a small town living too. So I mean, yeah, I get it, just like oh okay, yeah, cool, welcome back. Right, have them sign this. Yeah, you know, sign it. Good to bring it back to. Yeah, just take it back, so it's not that big of a deal, uh.

Speaker 3: 15:34

So in the meantime I'm looking for work, I'm trying to find work, yeah, and I kept going to close by the park uh, which you know it's, that's home, uh is a place Sonic, sonic Drive-In, and it was kind of in between school and the park, and so I kept hounding them like, hey, man, just give me a job, give me a job.

Speaker 3: 15:53

Finally one day I walk in and the guy's like, fine, you know, you got a job, that's cool, hired me and I worked there for a pretty good while. So I'd walk, walk to work, or I'd walk to school, walk back after school, go to work, work until you know, as long as they'd let me midnight, I'd close as often as possible, work the weekends and then walk back to the park at night, get a few hours sleep, get up, do it again. Really, how long did this continue? For that continued because I, you know, obviously I'm making some money and, um, knowing stephenville, knowing the layout, you know, growing up there, um, I kind of went to some of those poorer areas of town and I found this little shack, I mean it a, the whole thing wasn't any bigger than this room. Really.

Speaker 3: 16:47

And this old lady, she. She had a big, nice home that wasn't too far from it but she was renting it and I was just honest with her. I just told her I can't put any bills in my name, I don't even know how that works, but I'm making some money. Can I rent this place from you? So she agreed and I rented it for $135 a month. No kidding. I mean I showered with the slugs. Literally there were slugs I'd have to pull out of the shower.

Speaker 3: 17:17

I mean it was nasty, but it was a roof and it had one little wall heater you know a little gas wall heater and it was nice for me. I mean, I was pretty excited.

Speaker 1: 17:28

You're not on the streets.

Speaker 3: 17:29

Yeah, I'm not on the streets, I've got a place to live. So I lived there for a pretty good while and she put the bills in her name, turned them on and I would just pay her whatever the bills came out to. Really, and I kept it simple. Man, the lights were off. I was never there.

Speaker 1: 17:48

Well, and you came from nothing, you know, so it's easy to transition and not, you know, just get comfortable right away. I mean, you're living at your absolute means of what you need.

Speaker 3: 17:57

Oh yeah, yeah, and there was nothing more. I mean, my bed was. I got these bean bags for like three bucks a piece, you know, and they're cheap, I mean the worst bean bags you could find right, and I took two of them and they were my chairs for one, and then I would, at night, I could just push them together and I put like a fitted sheet over them to hold them together, hold them together, and I'd sleep on it and it was terrible because I'd wake up, my butt would be on the floor, my feet would be here, my head would be in there yeah, and it was horrible, but you just reposition, so it was simple it was good, good for you.

Speaker 1: 18:33

I mean, that is at the time. I'm sure you know there's some pretty dark and lonely moments but oh yeah, shaping you as what you're going to become as an adult. I mean it was just laying the foundations that you know, teaching you the grit, the grind. I mean you were just pushing through everything at that, that is, and zero help.

Speaker 3: 18:54

Yeah not for a long time. I mean a buddy of mine. His parents found out.

Speaker 1: 19:00

How old at this point?

Speaker 3: 19:03

I guess it had been a couple years, so I was 16.

Speaker 1: 19:07

So you were living in this little house just sleeping on beanbags, working at Sonic for a couple years all on your own, and going to school yeah and going to school and I'd have to walk.

Speaker 3: 19:19

And I'll be honest man, there were some nice people that offered rides, they'd see me walking and I just wouldn. Honest man. You know, there were some nice people that offered rides, they'd see me walking and I just wouldn't take them. But there was something in my brain that I don't know. I guess I'll call it pride. I don't even know where it came from, but I was very prideful. I didn't want help. For a long time I felt like I don't know. I felt like I needed to struggle, like it was my lot. You know what? I mean.

Speaker 3: 19:55

It's hard to explain. But so yeah. I walked back and forth and then a buddy of mine, his parents, found out and they were like look, we have this spare room, just stay with us, you're done, get your ass out of there. Yeah, and they were even talking like we're going to tell somebody Because technically I wasn't allowed to do that. No, you're a minor, I'm a minor.

Speaker 1: 20:23

And, honestly, I didn't even know what the no, you're a minor. I'm a minor, honestly.

Speaker 3: 20:25

I didn't even know what the laws were at the time, but I did understand I shouldn't. I mean, I was keeping it a secret because I knew I was going to get in trouble in some way or they were going to try to place me somewhere which I did not want.

Speaker 1: 20:37

Can you imagine it put in the system?

Speaker 3: 20:40

I know and I actually tried. I ran away several times when I was a kid. I would show them. I called the police on on my parents. They got arrested. They did a raid at the house, really found drugs. They got arrested. Didn't change anything. Didn't change a thing the moment they they bailed out because his family was pretty well. They bailed out right back to the house and then the repercussions fell on you absolutely all the time.

Speaker 1: 21:05

So the system's failing you at that point, from the start.

Speaker 3: 21:08

Yeah, and I ran away twice and showed them bruises, nothing. And what'd they do? Yeah, wait here. Next thing, you know, here comes my parents walking in. They just call them, get in touch with them. They come pick me up right back.

Speaker 1: 21:25

Beat your ass again. Call them, get in touch with them.

Speaker 3: 21:26

They come pick me up right back and then beat me for saying something about it.

Speaker 1: 21:29

So for right of the way and saying something, Okay, so that makes sense of why you were a pretty prideful guy and didn't want to say anything Cause, I mean, everything had failed you up to that point. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's probably where a lot of that.

Speaker 1: 21:40

I mean, I'm just guessing a lot of that came from was trying to reaching for help, and everything has failed you up to, I mean, your whole entire life. So, yeah, I feel like that's probably a good starting point where you were just pretty much middle fingers to the world. I got it on my own.

Speaker 3: 21:56

Yeah, yeah, I felt like I just had to. Otherwise, you know, who do you trust? Yeah, if you can't trust your family, the people who were supposed to be there for you, care about you, love you, all these things, how am I going to trust anybody else? And even for small things, you know, but these people did. I mean, they were super, just wonderful, wonderful family.

Speaker 1: 22:18

Was it a weird transition for you going? And the reason I ask is because you know, you see, sometimes where these people in prison they get so used to living in their confinements or their environment. When they get out they can't. It's, it's too much for them, did you? I mean, obviously, after a couple of years you, because your suck levels clearly raised to living with slugs sleeping on bean bags doing it all on your own.

Speaker 3: 22:41

That was better. That was better living than living with my parents for sure.

Speaker 1: 22:45

So when you went from there to your friend's house, was it a weird adjustment? Or you were like, oh man, this is amazing. Do you remember it?

Speaker 3: 22:51

was strange. It was, it was weird and I felt like a burden the entire time I felt out of place, it felt like a burden. I felt like, um, I don't know, like an imposter. It was really, really weird. So you were more comfortable living on your own, yeah, okay, and so I was there only about a year and then graduated at 17. And right before I graduated, I got back out on my own. I mean just because I just felt like a burden.

Speaker 3: 23:24

I really did, and I know I wasn own, I mean, just cause I just felt like a burden, I really did, and I know I wasn't. I'm looking back now. I know I wasn't, but, um, I mean, I, I paid for my own food, I did everything. I just, basically, they just gave me a roof and a place to sleep and so, um, and I mean, she cooked meals and I would eat those meals, but I, I took care of all of my stuff, yep and um, so, yeah, it was. It was very weird.

Speaker 1: 23:50

Good for you for staying in school during that time. I feel a hundred percent of kids. That would be the last thing on their mind. It was tough.

Speaker 3: 24:00

I actually got kicked out Really, cause they found out I was on my own.

Speaker 1: 24:04

How'd they find out?

Speaker 3: 24:06

they mail you home, mail letter home or something well kind of like I mean there was, you know, when I get sick, and I mean I was sick, I was having to walk all the time I'm I mean I'm tired, I'm exhausted no malnourished. Yeah, yeah, and so, uh, I remember having you know I'm writing my own letters why I'm not at school, because back then that's how it was. I don't even know how they do that nowadays.

Speaker 1: 24:30

Emails oh is it FaceTime. Yeah there's none of that.

Speaker 3: 24:34

It was like you just write a letter. Well, they figured it out that I'm writing my own letters, and so the vice principal called me in and he was going to give me what they called SAC. And it was basically like you've got to stay after school and all this stuff, and I'm trying to tell him like, look, I've got to work to feed. Now that you know the truth, understand, I've got to work to feed myself.

Speaker 3: 25:01

So he started threatening to get people involved and this is when I was still on my own and I got super mad and he just wouldn't listen to me, wouldn't reason, and he had a piece of cake on his desk that somebody had given him and I grabbed it and smashed it in his face.

Speaker 1: 25:19

Really.

Speaker 3: 25:20

Yeah, probably shouldn't have done that.

Speaker 1: 25:22

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 25:23

I was just overwhelmed, I was mad. I was just overwhelmed, I was mad. I was just like I'm trying to do the right thing and you're getting in my way and he's not listening to you either?

Speaker 3: 25:30

No, he's not listening. So, boom, kicked me out of school. That was my junior year and I didn't know what to do, so I just I worked, worked. So that was halfway through the semester and it bothered me. By over the summer I contacted the school and I was. You know, I was like I got to figure out, how can I make this right? This was about the time I was going to move in for my senior year okay, okay, to your friend's place.

Speaker 3: 26:05

And or right before it, I guess. Anyway, the counselor had been trying to find me. Of course I don't have a phone, I can't, you know. Turns out she's like look, I told her what happened. She's like we're not going to mention any of this. You can make up your credits. You're going to have to do it during a specific time. Get your other credits. You can still graduate with your class. It's going to take a lot of work. So I did it and that's that was a big reason I moved in, because I didn't have to work quite as much but treat up the time to be able to get your credits up?

Speaker 3: 26:38

yeah, because I had to. I had to do that like either after school or a little bit on the weekend. Yeah, to get those credits back. Had a full semester of credits I had to get back, so did that, graduated with my class and made it happen.

Speaker 1: 26:52

So that is incredible that you stayed in to graduate. Yeah, I mean you see so many kids that go. The first thing they do, school's gone. I mean, that's the last thing on their mind now were you trying to? Was it in your head the whole entire time college? Or were you just like I just need my.

Speaker 3: 27:10

I just need a high school diploma I think I was just surviving okay, um, really just surviving, and and observing I was just, I was always observing people and trying to figure out like I knew what the life was like that I grew up in, and I knew that was not anything that I wanted, so I would just watch people, watch families, watch anyone, and everyone I thought was doing something right, like how do I, you know, how do I act? I wasn't taught basic life skills, yeah, and so, um, I think I think during that time it was just survival and I knew this was important. Like this was a big deal to me is what else did I have? I didn't have anything else and I didn't want to live that way. Uh, so, one step at a time. So I I mean, that was all that was on my and then it happened and I was like get a job. You know, I'd never been to the dentist in my life I don't even think of that.

Speaker 3: 28:18

In my whole life I'd never I'd never been to the dentist. I'd never they didn't take me to the doctor. I think one time, when my stepdad rolled the truck on my foot on purpose, he was forced to take me to the doctor. You know, it's like stuff like that. So I, you know, immediately follow it in high school I'm like well, I can get a better job now. Mm-hmm, I've got, I can work full-time all the time and overtime, you know whatever, and make money. So I did and, uh, you know, got out, got a job at a factory and um really just focused on that for a pretty good while. Um, I guess maybe about a year, just grinding out the work. Yeah, just grinding out the work, nothing more. Um, I mean, I guess, really, what did it made me think about it a little more? Was um at this factory. I moved up really quick in in their little scale.

Speaker 1: 29:24

I would say your work ethic was probably one of the top notch guys in there dealing with you where you've come from right yeah, and I had no problem.

Speaker 3: 29:32

I mean work as hard as I could and in and then some, because I, you know, I was always afraid of like something being taken away. And now now I'm at a place like I went to, like I said, I went to the dentist, I had insurance. I didn't know what that was, you know. When they asked me do you want it? You know what. What? What are you talking about Insurance? What is that? And then they told me I could go to the dentist, you know, and the doctor, and anyway, it was. It was just amazing, yeah, things like that, that now I look back and I'm like I can't believe, like no one ever even taught me these things. So, but I, you know this machine I worked on, it was coated abrasives sandpaper. Okay.

Speaker 3: 30:16

Yeah, so I mean giant you think sandpaper? We always think of like small belt sanders or stuff like that You're making. I'm making these giant like this sandpaper, like for cars and stuff, and the machine wasn't very efficient and the more I looked at the machine the more I realized like a small thing, you know, one small adjustment here and it could save probably thousands of dollars in you know product because we're just wasting it.

Speaker 3: 30:48

So which every company wants, that employee Right, and they had a program, like they had a deal that, like anything you think of that might improve, you know, write it up, let us know and we'll come take a look at it and if we implement it then you'll get a reward. Of course I'm thinking I'm going to get some money. Yeah so.

Speaker 3: 31:06

I took it to them, I drew it up the best I could and, you know, went in and then one day I didn't hear anything for months. One day, like six engineers walk out and introduce themselves. I'll walk them through Like they're like show me this, show me that, walk them through it, lo and behold themselves, uh, walking through. Like they're like show me this, show me that. Walking through it, lo and behold. They did it Really. It took time, they had to, they actually had to, but I ended up getting like 10 grand out of that which was probably probably nothing compared to what they saved on that, oh for sure.

Speaker 1: 31:38

But I mean for you at that age, in that time, 10 grand. It was like hitting the lottery.

Speaker 3: 31:42

Oh yeah, it was just, was just amazing. I mean, I was able to buy a car, you know, uh, and just I mean it, and put some money in the bank, you know, and just get ahead for one go actually buy some clothes that you know weren't secondhand, you know, whatever I could find.

Speaker 1: 31:59

So yeah, they give you 10 grand. Imagine how much that machine saved them. Oh, I know.

Speaker 3: 32:05

Now I know, back then I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm like the richest man alive.

Speaker 1: 32:10

Didn't even care. No, I didn't care. That's how grateful you are. Instead of well, what's the percentage?

Speaker 3: 32:16

No, yeah, no. I was just like, oh my gosh, I felt very privileged to even have the opportunity that I was given that opportunity. Yeah, so yeah Did that.

Speaker 1: 32:30

And then, after that, off to college.

Speaker 3: 32:33

Kind of I started thinking about college. I actually ended up meeting this girl and we started dating and I'd been thinking about college and she was really encouraging me, like you should. So I went you know, tarleton States right there in town. So I went and applied Well, they wanted parents taxing, for I mean, I got no money, you know, I've got to have financial aid but they wanted parents tax information. They want all this stuff that I can't provide. And so I just told them that, like I can't give you any of this, and they're like well, you've got to get independent status.

Speaker 1: 33:22

So I had to fight for three years to gain independent status. Is that through?

Speaker 3: 33:24

the state or through the school system, through the I can't even tell you, I think it's through the state, like for the financial aid, part of everything. Okay, so they wanted three letters from like upstanding citizens in the community, along with some other stuff, but that was the main thing. So it was like they had to be a business owner, doctor, attorney, you know, somebody, mayor, somebody well established, who could basically vouch for that character. And so you know, I didn't just go out and I didn't even think about. I didn't just go out and like go up to business owners and be like, hey, can you do this for me?

Speaker 3: 34:07

I actually went out and started getting involved in the community, getting involved, and so I started going and meeting professors and I would just do different things to get my foot in different doors just to meet people and volunteer time a little bit here and there when I could doors, just to meet people and volunteer time a little bit here and there when I could. So about three years went by and I'd established pretty well just with people in general and so and that's when I finally got the letters and got in. Really, how'd that feel? It felt great, yeah, and I kind of knew. Well, I thought I assumed I knew what I wanted to do right away.

Speaker 1: 34:53

Which was what. What was your first thoughts of going to college? Like what did you want to do then? I wanted to be an attorney. Okay yeah, really Good, you're built different. Well, your mindset is completely opposite of what I would guess any kid in your situation would have taken that path I.

Speaker 3: 35:10

There was something that happened, um, when I was a little bit younger. Uh, I was on my own at the time. I was out at a friend's house a little ways out in the country. Uh, county road out there, paved county road. But we're standing outside of his house and you know, it's like I said, it's out in the middle, nowhere, but it's kind of close to the road and I'm kicking in the dirt. And, long story short, I see this. It's a toy, plastic, toy revolver with no barrel on it, and I just have it in my hand and I'm knocking the dirt off of it and kind of kicked it out of the ground and we're just talking.

Speaker 3: 35:46

There's three of us talking and I pointed across the road at this bird that's on a fence post across the road that there's no nobody on, while truck drives by, I don't think twice about it, throw the thing down, whatever, go about my business. Well, about five months later I he, I run into him again. He's like hey, these, these guys came by when they were asking about this incident. I couldn't think of anything, he's like.

Speaker 3: 36:12

The only thing I could think of was that day you were out here and I showed him the little toy thing he said in fact I pulled it back in the house in case you need it. Well, I contacted the sheriff. They left a card and uh, met him, talked to him. I was like, yeah, I remember. I said, but I don't, I couldn't tell you anything about the truck. I think I remember a truck driving by, but yeah I wasn't pointing it at them.

Speaker 3: 36:36

I was just pointing, I mean, it's a. I showed it to him. Yeah, it's like, this is what it was. He laughed like okay, whatever. Anyway, uh, they ended up filing uh charges on me. For what? For uh, what was it?

Speaker 1: 36:53

reckless endangerment over pointing a toy gun yeah across the road yeah so I, these people that I ended up staying with.

Speaker 3: 37:04

So time goes by, they tell me that they've heard, I've got a warrant for my arrest and I'm like I don't have time to do anything. So I walk my well, I have them drive me over, I get out, I go in. I'm like, hey, this is my name, I heard it, I've been told I got a warrant for it.

Speaker 1: 37:23

Click.

Speaker 3: 37:24

Lock me up, throw me in a cell in year 17, yeah, yeah, 17 years old. Oh my god, I don't know what's happening. I don't understand. Uh. So I spend the night in jail and you know they take me to the judge the next morning and she's like are you know? She, she had seen almost. She's like are you supposed to be in school? I'm like well, yeah, but I'm here. So she's like what? What is this? Tell me what's going on here. And and it's like a class b misdemeanor. That's what it says on the paperwork.

Speaker 3: 38:02

And she's like tell me what's going on. So I tell her, I tell her the story. And she's looking around at these guys and she's also got the story in front of her. I mean, she's got the report and she goes okay, well, one of these fine gentlemen are going to. You're gone. So you're out of here, we're done here. She's like, you will have to go to court. She's like but you're out of here, they're going to take you home and then drive you to school. And she's like are you gonna? So I mean, she was pretty cool. Um, anyway, I ended up going to court and the uh, the da calls me in. God. It escalated to this. Huh yeah, like I mean, you got to go to court on it yeah, and I still.

Speaker 3: 38:46

I have no idea really what severity where I'm facing here. I don't know much about the law at that point, um, but he calls me and he's he's like look, um, just sign this and we'll be done. And I'm like what am I signing here? He's like, what, well, it's a guilty plea? Oh, hell, no. And I was like I didn't do anything. He's like, yeah, you did so, just sign the paperwork and we're done. I was like that ain't happening. I'm not signing anything. Aren't I supposed to be in front of a judge or something? And he's like, look here, you little shit, sign the paperwork and let's be done with this. And I just stood up, flung the papers, walked out, barged into court in the middle, which was not a good thing to do, probably not the best way to start your week. So they kind of pulled me, anyway, judge Bart McDougal.

Speaker 3: 39:41

He later became. I ended up going to church with him. He became a friend of mine. But they called me back in. They're like, okay, what's going on? I was like, look, this guy's trying to railroad me. I didn't do this thing. So I explained the story to him and he looks through everything and of course I have no idea what all they've got. I didn't even know I had access to the reports. It's not like they were going to tell me that, no. So he looked at it all and he's like you know what? This is dismissed, it's done. Really.

Speaker 3: 40:11

This is ridiculous and of course you know I got a scolding. He's like don't ever barge into court, keep your nose clean, all this stuff. So, going back to the attorney thing, I felt like I was really wronged. For sure the whole process was wrong. It was done wrong. And then it got me thinking like how many people get railroaded like this? Like I was just stubborn enough, Because it's not like I knew the difference. Yeah, I just knew, I didn't do anything.

Speaker 1: 40:43

Imagine how many people are signing that piece of paper without asking just saw it and then they have a guilty plea.

Speaker 3: 40:48

Yeah, it wasn't a felony, but still you know. So, yeah, that was a long way around to how. Why I wanted to get you know, spawned in my head like okay, attorney, I'll go be an attorney interesting.

Speaker 1: 41:02

I feel like that's a good, uh, a good example of what would have sparked that. Yeah, just having to deal with our system, which is so broken and corrupt I feel personally it's just the fact that we still deal with the things we do in our justice system, is wild to me. So I mean that's a good. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's it's broken.

Speaker 3: 41:21

It's still broken. Oh for sure. Back then it was, you know, it was probably much worse, I'm sure.

Speaker 1: 41:25

They can get away with a lot more. Yeah, you know, for social media and everything's recorded and documents and saved and emails, I mean, then you can just get away with whatever. Sure, yeah, so you go off to college, finally get in, and are you chasing the attorney dream, or did that change by that point?

Speaker 3: 41:46

Well, I'm chasing it. So I was pre-law and political science economics double major, okay, and I was president of Phi Alpha Delta International Law Fraternity. I was president of Students in free enterprise mm-hmm economic organization and and then I got involved in another Chi Alpha religious organization. I was very involved in the university. I ended up working for the university for a time period helping get organizations and with their events, like if they wanted to do events, what were some great ideas for the events? How do we get it out? So? And then I don't think I'd ever really thought about the price of law school. I mean, I really hadn't.

Speaker 3: 42:41

I knew. I mean, I'm getting school loans and trying to keep those to a minimum. You know I didn't really want to go into a ton of debt, but I'm at this point where I really just have to, and I guess it was about my junior well at the end of my sophomore year I really take a look at the price tag on law school, any law school Of how much it's accruing and I was just like, oh my gosh, there's no way I cannot do this to myself.

Speaker 3: 43:11

I can't put myself in that much debt. I'm already going to be in debt, I can't. So I began rethinking that, and there were some other things that happened when I was a kid with police that were kind of not legit, uh, from the police standpoint, uh being judged, oh for sure, you know, just people pointing the finger because of my parents and because of all of that stuff and I'm not going to say I was a saint, cause I wasn't I mean the life that I lived.

Speaker 3: 43:42

My parents started giving me dope at seven, so I was doing drugs at seven and eight, nine, ten years old.

Speaker 1: 43:54

Oh my God, you, your parents, are just giving it to you.

Speaker 3: 43:58

Yeah, I mean it's not like it was a daily thing, but still. But yeah, and for me I wasn't getting getting hit. They thought it was funny. You know it was. It was amusing to them and their friends what exactly are they giving you?

Speaker 1: 44:12

uh, started just marijuana. Okay, just take a puff here and there puffs.

Speaker 3: 44:16

You know, here's some beer. Take some puffs of marijuana and then it would be cocaine and they're just doing it for pure enjoyment.

Speaker 1: 44:23

Yeah, it's funny to them watching their 79 10 year old kid deal do some coke, and they're just doing it for pure enjoyment. Yeah, it's funny to them watching their 79 10 year old kid deal do some coke and they're just sitting back laughing and for me it's a win.

Speaker 3: 44:32

Like, like I said, they're not angry, they're not hitting me, you know. So it's a win for me, why not, you know?

Speaker 1: 44:41

and so at that point, obviously, if they're that big into it, you've been ran away twice, call the cops on them. They've done a bus. So the local law enforcement, especially in those smaller communities, they know exactly who you are and who your parents are. So you're labeled, yeah, right out the gate. Sure, so when you run in with them, they know exactly who you are and what you're about, and off the image of your parents, right, yeah.

Speaker 3: 45:06

Yeah, and I mean, you know, I had a skateboard. It was the cheapest thing I could find to get around here and there and so I was a skateboarder, I would skateboard and that got a bad rap. Of course, I just think you're up to no good you know tearing up stuff and I just wasn't that kind of person. I didn't tear up of person, I didn't. I didn't tear anything. I didn't break the law, I mean, other than the things that you know.

Speaker 3: 45:27

yeah, I did, I did drugs, I did some some things like that, um, but I wasn't out just trying to break the law for sure uh, so, so, yeah, that that got me thinking about you know, those things that happened when I was a kid and between, uh, you know just the system in and of itself all the way around, and I thought, well, I can shift into, maybe, law enforcement, well, I can actually do something good here, and I was already kind of, you know, looking in that legal realmsci. And then criminal justice. So yeah graduated.

Speaker 1: 46:10

Saved you a lot of money, yeah.

Speaker 3: 46:13

Or at least you stopped accruing as much. Yeah, right. And there are still times where, man, I should have just done it, because I do know guys and they went on, they did the same thing and they have a lot of debt, but they're getting it paid off, they're making decent money. So there are times where I wish I would have done it, but I just couldn't wrap my mind around.

Speaker 1: 46:37

Well, especially coming from nothing, and then everything that you've built to that point has been on your back. You don't have a trust fund. You don't have a trust fund, you don't have a college savings. So I could imagine you look at that statement and see some zeros in there and you're just absolutely not.

Speaker 3: 46:53

No way, yeah, I can't even fathom that that much money. I mean you're talking to a at this point, especially like right before that. Growing up I thought if you lived in a brick home, I thought you were a millionaire, I mean that was really my mindset. Yeah, I thought that's how it worked. I just couldn't imagine. And so, seeing those kind of dollars, I'm like no, I can't Not for me. No way I'm going in that kind of debt.

Speaker 1: 47:21

So then you graduate and you become a law enforcement officer. Yep, how did where at I?

Speaker 3: 47:26

actually tried to join. Got accepted OCS Really To the Army Okay, and so I applied, went and sat on the board 100% across the board. Got accepted OCS. Yeah, but I was honest, I have asthma. Okay. At the time it didn't bother me, but I was honest, I have asthma. Okay, at the time it didn't bother me, I had the top scores on PT, but they had had, like I think they told me, eight deaths at Fort Benning alone due to breathing-related incidents and this and that.

Speaker 3: 47:58

So they were like we're not taking anybody with asthma, damn. So that guy shot down, so that was shot down, so that that that was immediately after, okay, um, and then at that point, uh, I went, you know, went to work for another factory while I was looking like, where do I want to go, what I want to do? I was, um, at the time I'd gotten married right before I graduated, uh, college, to your wife. Now, no, okay, so I've been divorced once.

Speaker 1: 48:28

Hey, you're not ready to be married until you've been divorced. You've got to learn some things, right? Yeah, I didn't know. And. I had a lot of pressure.

Speaker 3: 48:35

I was leading worship at a local church. Okay, I'm getting ready to get out of college. I really felt like I don't know. I felt like it was the right thing. I felt like it was what I was supposed to do. I had no one there to really guide me and tell me my whole life, so I just thought this is the normal, you know flow of life. Yep, I think it's what I'm supposed to do. Get a job, get married, yeah, yeah. So that's what I did and moved to Amarillo. I'd never been there, applied, got into the academy right off the bat.

Speaker 3: 49:12

And was president of the academy yeah, that was it. And got out and went to work Really Right away. I mean, you've got to go through the academy.

Speaker 1: 49:25

Yeah, how was the academy?

Speaker 3: 49:26

for you. It was good, it was easy for me, coming from where I came from, and you know I'm not the most intelligent person on the earth. I'm sure I don't have you know some extraordinary IQ, but I did fine. I didn't have any problem. Obviously, physically I was, you know, I'm six, two, I'm, you know, going in at 230 pounds, had an 8% body fat. You know I'm ready for it, I'm ready. Yeah, I've got no problems on the physical side. I've got no problems mentally. I don't have an issue. So, any of the scenarios, all the stuff that we went through, no issues whatsoever. I mean it just didn't, it didn't bother me, um, so, and it was good, I mean it was, it was, it was fun, it was a great learning experience. I met, met some lifelong friends in there.

Speaker 1: 50:21

yeah, um, and yeah, it's good that kind of set you up. So you were excited about you know, obviously the reason you became a cop and you kind of mentioned it was because of obviously lack of help seeing how the kind of system was in your town. So now you are, you're going through all of this and is it in your mind that you're you're ready to make a difference and you know it's you're going through all of this and is it in your mind that you're you're ready to make a difference and you know it's you're going to do it the right way? Was that kind of your mindset going into it, seeing how you were treated by previous law enforcement?

Speaker 3: 50:52

yeah, that was a big part of it, um, and I really didn't know. I mean, I just knew one. You know, this is a an honorable career. It's one where I feel like I could probably go in and make a difference in people's lives. I'm going to get a paycheck. That's probably the highest paying paycheck I've ever had, you know. Uh, so these are, these are the things that stability yeah, you know, stability in my life, um, for, at the time, my wife. So, yeah, all those things were sitting in my mind.

Speaker 3: 51:33

And I didn't know, I didn't even thought about like SWAT or narcotics or special ops or any of these. I mean, it was literally just like I'm going to be a police officer.

Speaker 1: 51:46

So I mean, obviously you go through graduation. Do you do your ride-alongs or are you just right into it? You do the left seat, right seat, Well, so you've got to go through the.

Speaker 3: 51:57

FDO program, field Training Officer program right yeah, and there's like phases. You've got 25% phase, 50% phase, so the percentage is how much work you're supposed to do, right? Yep. Like first phase, you're doing 25% of the work. The FTA is doing 75 and so on. So it's 25, 50, 75.

Speaker 1: 52:14

And then it slowly switches 100%.

Speaker 3: 52:17

And then finally you're out on your own, yeah, and there's a red book, they're grading you and doing all the stuff. So I think for me it was like, right out of the gate, I was doing pretty much all the work. Yeah, I was doing it. Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1: 52:38

Which isn't always the worst case, because I mean, if you're thrown to the fire and to the wolves, you figure it out quicker that way. Yeah, and you know, back then like I've never been to amarillo, even when I applied what's amarillo like as a brand new moving to amarillo. Now you're a cop there, I mean because so you're figuring out the city really quick, as now, as a cop being in the street, so you get. You get to see the sides of Amarillo, yeah, and I really had no idea.

Speaker 3: 53:08

When I had applied, like I said, I thought it was a mistake. I don't know if you've ever been to Amarillo, oh yeah, but when you're going west into Amarillo, like that east part of town, you're just like what is this? This is nasty. You know, and that when I remember, when I went up there for like interview and testing and stuff, I was like oh my gosh, what have I done? You know, and I mean, there are nice parts of Amarillo, so uh, I just had to learn it.

Speaker 1: 53:41

You're like god.

Speaker 3: 53:41

I hope I don't get that yeah, and and we're talking to todd, this is back in like early 2000s, okay, and I, I don't you know personally, there's no smart.

Speaker 2: 53:52

I don't have a smartphone there's no, smartphone, you can't just google things, you know you got a, you got a book right.

Speaker 3: 53:58

It's a book with street, I mean, it's a map. So you have to like, look through this map. Uh. So it was tough for me. I mean that was the hardest part for me. It was learning the streets and learning where to go and how the grids were set up and all this stuff. But uh, and then you start to learn the sides of town and how it's, because you know every city has its good and bad. It's all sanctioned out, like it's spread out, and demographically, like how people are are living.

Speaker 1: 54:25

So oh, culturally in a way, yeah, and it's fascinating. I guess most people probably don't ever think about that, but if you actually pay attention when you're in a city how the different demographics or cultures or gangs and religions I mean everybody has their parts of town if you really break them through they coincide and they'll bleed into others. But I it's.

Speaker 3: 54:49

It is when, I guess, as a law enforcement officer, you really get to see the lines oh yeah, and it's very segregated and it's in, and it's not one of those things where it's intentional, it just happens. Yeah, it ends up happening because of association, family, friends work income you know, extracurricular activity you know, depending on what what, what is it you're into, what are you doing and and what is your income level? And, uh, it happens everywhere?

Speaker 1: 55:18

are you patrolling the whole city, or did you get a unit, or what do you call them?

Speaker 3: 55:22

during the FTO beat. Okay, uh, during the FTO, you know, you get switched around. In fact, I, I think I ended up, I think I might still hold the record of most FTOs because I finally just told them you know, just keep everyone consistent, I'll be fine. So if you want to shift me around, it's cool. Cool, so you go all over. But I ended up getting to kind of choose my playground.

Speaker 1: 55:51

Okay.

Speaker 3: 55:51

Because you know, I mean I did well. Yeah. Swat guys had already come and said as soon as you're eligible, you're coming with us. Okay, so I'd established myself pretty well, you know, at that time. So I chose midnights, on the south side of town, and that's. That was the playground, that was the playground.

Speaker 1: 56:14

As in most activity, yeah and so we had the north side.

Speaker 3: 56:18

Okay, the north side of amarillo is more like that's the poorer, you know side of town. There's a lot of drugs, there's a lot of, but that's not where people go to commit crimes. South side, the south side, it's like where people went to go to sell, sell the drugs because that's where the money was okay. That's where people went to go break into things, break into homes, to commit the crimes. So I could see that and everybody's like oh, you want to be where the actions are. It's like the action is on the south side. That's where the car chases happen, that's where the foot shade, that's where the bars are, like all the actions over there. So that's where I want to go, so that's where I chose, I. So I had a beat. Um, well, when you're the new guy, you, you, you're, you're the, you're the ghost, you're you know for lack of a better term you're the bitch oh, for sure we call them boots in the marine corps.

Speaker 3: 57:08

Yeah, yeah you're the one that gets like whoever doesn't show up that night, you're, you're getting their beat. Yep, uh, which was fine, I mean that could do your time, yeah, and then, and then it made me learn like what beat do I want?

Speaker 1: 57:19

because you're getting experience, some on your shifts, but all over the place, right okay?

Speaker 3: 57:26

so I got to learn like, okay, this is too far south, like right here on five two. This is where all the action's at okay, this is where it's at.

Speaker 1: 57:34

So uh, what was your first chase like, do you remember?

Speaker 3: 57:40

like foot chase or car chase both.

Speaker 1: 57:43

I want to hear them both. What was your first car chase like? Were you on your own or were you still?

Speaker 3: 57:46

I was, I was, yeah, I was with an ftl and I was driving and he and I he was, he was a marine. Uh, michael mogulins, michael mogulinski, uh, we're, we're cruising along and, you know, light the sky up. We already know he's a suspect. He takes off and we're having a normal like conversation and mike to this day will tell you like he I mean, we're just flying through the neighborhood, okay, and I was like hey, what does that sound? You know, and he's got the mic and he's like I don't know, that does sound weird. And he'd say like, oh, we're turning. You know we're doing all this stuff. I mean it was exciting, but it was. Also. We were just having a normal conversation during this thing, but it was fun.

Speaker 3: 58:32

How did it end up? Well, that one in particular. So we get to a main road and this guy just shoots across and obviously we have to be a little more cautious. We can't just slam into people coming with no lights on. Uh, we didn't know at the time, but it's a police officer and she turns and stops right in front of us so she blocks us off and it's not chasing the obvious car that we're chasing. So we end up having to go around. So by then we end up losing. We picked him up later. Okay, did find him later. There were officers all over the place, so we did. Someone else ended up finding him. He had jumped out and bailed and took off and hid, and then we ended up having to call the.

Speaker 3: 59:15

K-9 in to track him and we found him hiding in a something had hooked itself to the back of the car like a trash bag oh, it's back there and it was like I can hear it flapping okay, and I mean it went it. You know it tore off or got loose or whatever at some point, but we're pretty sure that's what it was.

Speaker 1: 59:39

So anyway, it was first foot chase. Anyway, it was first foot chase.

Speaker 3: 59:44

Um, first foot chase, that was a 25% phase and there was a a big bar there. Uh, and I can't even remember now Cause it's not I think it was called grand station and they had multiple bars within a bar. So you go to the country, go to the rap, you can go wherever. Just a cauldron for a fight and shit to go down. Yeah, so you knew like, and the FTOs, I should say, knew like. If you want to get a rookie in a fight, we're going over here.

Speaker 3: 1:00:19

So it's closing time and I was with another Marine riding with him and he's like, hey, let's go to Grand Station. And he's driving, I'm in the passenger seat and we're going along. Of course I'm looking, I'm excited, he's pulling through the parking lot, he's yelling at people to get moving. Well, I look over and I see this dude just whack, just clock this guy Out. I go. I didn't even say anything, I was out and to the running. This guy saw me coming, he took off. Of course he didn't make it very far. I was pretty amped up. He got tackled and that was the end of that. But I guess that's part of like I said that was early on. That's part of what they want to see. They want to see if you're going to be what are you going to do when you see that stuff? Are you going to be?

Speaker 3: 1:01:10

like, oh, what should I do? Or just take action, because I didn't even. He was still looking the other way when I jumped out of the car. So he came over and he was pretty happy.

Speaker 1: 1:01:20

He was pretty happy that he had a rookie with him that was gonna, yeah, take care of business before you went swat and all that which I definitely want to get into was there a moment where, like an absolute embarrassing moment on the streets I feel like all cops have like a moment where you're just something happens like just you remember, you're like damn, you go, you're like damn and you go home and you're like that was embarrassing as hell.

Speaker 3: 1:01:49

I'm trying to think up to that point. I can't think of one at that point yeah. Later on. Yeah, I mean, I think it was my second night out on my own.

Speaker 3: 1:02:04

You know I'm so excited to be out of my own Get sent this call some apartment complex and there's a lot of crime in that area. But I couldn't get anyone to answer the door and I'm by myself at the moment. It was just a report call. So I step up to my car and there's like apartments all around and I'm on the radio and I'm like, hey, you know, see if you can call them back. Nobody's answering the door. Well, I'm standing there looking and it's dark, I'm not in my car and I see this like these two well, it was two people walking on the other side of the road a little ways up and there's cars all along the road and they're checking doors and I'm just standing there watching them check doors, so they're, and then they open one.

Speaker 3: 1:02:52

So I've got to see them commit a crime, because so I'm sitting here, set like okay, that's three doors, they're checked, they're definitely these are not their cars. They get one open and I'm trying to like they're just far enough away that I don't want to like take off. So I'm like getting over towards my car and I'm trying to get in position. They take off running. They see me and take off running. So I'm in my car and I drive it and there's two of them. I'm calling it out. I can only pick one because they split off. So I jump out and I take off running. I tackle this guy in the field and it's muddy. He's like face down, like I'm a tackle demon.

Speaker 3: 1:03:28

He's just like you know, suffocating in the mud, not really, uh, but he's face down. I'm on the radio like yelling, telling everyone where the other guy went and that I'm down with this guy and and the guy's like sitting there like he's like hey get off my back. I'm keyed up, just straight up keyed up, and I was like no, shut the fuck up. So you're screaming this over the net. Yeah, and I'm still keyed up. I didn't even let off at all.

Speaker 3: 1:03:57

And I just keep talking and then so I do my thing and I get back, and I get it. They catch the other guy, get them all back. But next time, yeah, next time, don't stay keyed up and say that on the radio, please. I was like, oh God, I just thought I was going to get in a lot of trouble, but he was cool.

Speaker 1: 1:04:23

So how long were you on the road before you transitioned to SWAT? What was? How long were you there before you were eligible?

Speaker 3: 1:04:31

So three years. You had to be three years before you could get on SWAT so you saw some shit in those three years, oh yeah you get any shootouts during that time um, not, not in those three years.

Speaker 3: 1:04:42

I didn't personally get shoot. There were some that happened. You know, some officer involved shootings and stuff. Uh, I had never been in any shootouts. I'd pulled my pistol plenty of times you know just, uh, depending on especially at night times, you know just depending on especially at night, you just never know what you're rolling up on what was the scariest part about being on patrol in Amarillo, like what was your biggest threat?

Speaker 3: 1:05:04

And you know, there was a question, I think, in that questionnaire you had, and it was like what's the most dangerous situation? Yeah, I think the scariest part were traffic stops. Really, yeah, why is that? Because you don't know, you have no idea. When you're sent to a call, um, you know, whatever, at least you have some kind of idea, you know there's something happening, there's some kind of it's domestic, it's this, it's that when you do a traffic stop, there's a good chance you don't know anything about it for sure sure you might.

Speaker 3: 1:05:35

Maybe you know that this is. I mean, there were plenty of times like I knew this was a suspect in something and that's why I'm stopping the car. But if I'm just doing a basic traffic stop, I've got no intel. I don't know where they've just come from, I don't know what they've got in the car, I don't know who they've got in the car, and especially not you just have no idea. So I really think that's the most dangerous part about personally about being a cop. You got more officers shot in those situations for sure, I mean.

Speaker 1: 1:06:04

I mean, they could just have a shotgun barrel right to that window and the passenger back. You know back driver's seat and you walk up and you have no idea. Yeah, I feel like that's got to be pretty nerve-wracking. You know every driver's seat and you walk up and you have no idea. Yeah, I feel like that's got to be pretty nerve-wracking. You know every and how many? On average? How many stops were you making a night? I mean, it could be a couple to a lot, I guess, depending on the night, yeah, depending on the night, depending on what the you know.

Speaker 3: 1:06:26

There were times where I was specifically focusing on something you know and on my beat, but uh, you're making several a night okay.

Speaker 1: 1:06:35

So you never know, did you ever have any close like any scary situations?

Speaker 3: 1:06:39

yeah, yeah, mostly most of the time it was on when I was on specialized units.

Speaker 1: 1:06:45

Okay, I had plenty of those yeah, um shootings really outs and stuff like that well, let's get into those. So where'd you start? So you went, obviously patrol. And then what was your first you go.

Speaker 3: 1:06:57

So you get in the SWAT. And um, I was, and then simultaneously, I also did crisis intervention. So, uh, right before my three-year mark, they pegged me and said, hey, we want you to do crisis intervention which is what exactly crisis intervention um you're dealing with, like mental health situations? Which could be scary, I feel very, very dangerous, yeah, always very dangerous, okay, suicidal, homicidal, um things like that.

Speaker 1: 1:07:30

So is this like hostage situation? Like some husband went off, he's got his wife in the house and that's more of a SWAT deal okay but you're getting called out on, like you know the true mentals, where they're.

Speaker 3: 1:07:44

They're talking about killing themselves, someone's called and said they're trying to kill themselves or they've talked about killing someone. You have to go, check it out and what's your role on this? My role is to evaluate, like are they mentally ill? Do they need help? Do they need to go to jail? Have they committed a crime?

Speaker 1: 1:08:05

are you there on the scene with them evaluating? So you're so. Do you have SWAT or other? Obviously it's not just you. You're rolling out with a team, or is it you?

Speaker 3: 1:08:13

well, I generally at least one other officer to at least evaluate what's going on, okay, so, so this isn't like a hostage situation, okay, this is. This is like someone is called, something has happened and someone's saying they're losing their mind and they're going crazy. So there's plenty of times I roll up and they've got a knife they've sliced've sliced half their neck open and they're ready to roll.

Speaker 3: 1:08:35

These are the types that are looking like suicide by cop Sometimes yeah, okay, yeah, or just legitimately mentally ill, like they need help, and so go up, evaluate, talk to them. I was just good at having a conversation with people and I've been through enough in my life and understood, so it was easy for me to have a conversation with people and not get super excited With all the things I'd seen in my life and gone through. It's not a problem having that conversation. So that was kind of why they said, hey, we want you to come do this. So plenty of instances there. And then shortly after three years years you had to be three years to get on SWAT and then they pulled me into SWAT. So I was doing both um and yeah, man, that was that was exciting. Swat was you know. It was like the place to be were you designated SWAT?

Speaker 1: 1:09:33

because I know a lot of departments you're on the road and then you're also SWAT, so when you're called in, is that how it worked, or you, that was it? I mean, are you, we only?

Speaker 3: 1:09:42

had like a few that were designated SWAT. Okay, that's all they did. Yeah, well, and it and it still wasn't all they did, but that's their primary. Primary, yeah, that was primary. So I got to do dual, which every call out, you still went on, you went on, you did all the training. Everything was the same. Okay, um, but you just that's not the only thing that you did got it. So, uh, you had to kind of work into that, okay. So so, um, yeah, I did that and, um, I enjoyed doing both. I mean it was tough because you know work midnights and incidents during the day. You still got to get up, you still got to go deal with whatever we ran search warrants. You know we would do the hard hits and things for the search warrants, for the narcotics and all the stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:10:28

How's that for doing a hit on a house for narcotics? I mean, that's got to be those guys I feel like would risk it all, especially if they're cartel or dealing with gang members and things like that. Yeah, those situations go down just strategic.

Speaker 3: 1:10:42

You know, it's all it's all about, like figuring out a pattern, right, so doing your due diligence on surveillance. You know when's the best time that we can go and hit this place and get the least amount of problems but still get the dope or get the guns or whatever it is we're hitting the house for. I mean, we did, we served those for not only just, it's also like special crimes. You know, if there was like homicides, um, and we're trying to go in and arrest warrants, whatever, like, we did all of that, we served all those and we serve as 26 counties really. Yeah, so we were the SWAT team for 26, holy shit so you're traveling, yeah, a lot, and not not a whole lot on the traveling part of it generally meant like something bad was happening.

Speaker 3: 1:11:37

Okay. And like shootings. We had one where an officer was pinned down behind a car. A veteran had PTSD. She went to knock on the door, they heard shots fired and he started shooting at her. She was pinned down behind the car for two hours until we got there. That's an eternity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's an eternity.

Speaker 1: 1:12:00

Yeah, she was so exhausted when we oh we got to her I could imagine, but is there any? Is there any missions? What do you guys call them as service?

Speaker 3: 1:12:08

a mission, I guess I guess it would just appeal, but I guess mission is there one that stands out to you?

Speaker 1: 1:12:15

that was just good.

Speaker 3: 1:12:18

Bad the ugly uh, we, there's several, I guess one in particular. It was out of town. Uh, there was an officer shot so they were going into serving arrest warrant in a smaller town. Officer was shot in the face. The guy was hiding inside and as he came around the corner shot him, survived he. They managed to get him out. He crawled to a point and they managed to pull him out.

Speaker 1: 1:12:47

This is the officer that came around the corner. You're talking, yeah, okay.

Speaker 3: 1:12:51

And got him out. So they called us, of course, and he was barricaded, you know. So we got there and got him out. So they called us, of course, and he was barricaded, you know. So we, we got there and got it surrounded, um couldn't figure out. The house had a really strange layout. We couldn't couldn't find the floor plan, there were really no good photos and any kind of case file that we could pull up. So we're we're having to probe the best we can. We end up moving up. I toss a throw bot in. So you know, we're doing some mapping that way, trying to find this guy Ended up finding a room that we didn't even know was there, just a small room. So I planted up on that with the throw bot.

Speaker 1: 1:13:32

What's a throw?

Speaker 3: 1:13:32

bot. It's literally like it's a cylinder with wheels and it's got a camera and it's got a tail on it and you just freaking break a window and toss it in and get back and then you can just operate it.

Speaker 1: 1:13:46

And it's just, you can watch it and kind of get a layout of where he's at or what it just helps you like, set up.

Speaker 3: 1:13:50

So once we figured out like, I watched him open the door, you know I set up and I was like what is this? Is that a closet? Because I'd been through what I could get through. Yeah. And then I saw the door, like I mean, just barely, just lucky enough to be looking, I was like that dude is in there. So we, you know obviously chemical, chemical, chemical, chemical as Well. We, you know obviously, chemical, chemical, chemical, chemical.

Speaker 1: 1:14:14

As in tear gas.

Speaker 3: 1:14:14

Yeah, okay A bunch Got the robot in there, the big robot, and breached that area, that door. He well, we were about to, I should say we were about to breach it. He came out into another area because we put so much gas in there and the robots in there, and he starts hitting it, it doing all this stuff, and then of course I'm on that backside. Um, he comes to the door and gets to a certain point and starts coming up with the weapon. The harvard vehicle's right there and buddy bonds, and you know he's sitting there looking at him. So he starts retreating as he as he's coming up with that, that uh weapon. He's retreating, uh at the same time. So they take him out, hit him in the femoral or in the leg and it also hits his femoral artery. So then we have to run up. We have no idea how many people are in this house or that were in that room.

Speaker 3: 1:15:15

We just know that he's the one, but we don't know anything else. So then we come around and immediately roll up, and so we've got to go up, and I go up and drag him out and his leg's flopping every which way, oh yeah, get him out. And now we have to do what we do, so I'll make sure he's first, make sure he's not armed, and then throw some tourniquets on. We also usually take TAC meds, tac medics, with us that we train up. We're trained as well, but we like to have those guys there. Once we feel safe, in an area where we can control it, where we bring them in, they can do a little bit more on that side.

Speaker 1: 1:15:54

And so, yeah, yeah, that was uh, that was one yeah, I bet you got a million of those being on SWAT. How long are we on SWAT for? Uh, 10 years, 10 years. Damn. You got some stories. Yeah, let me hear some more. I love these type of stories.

Speaker 3: 1:16:12

The one I was telling you about the rescue mission was, like I said, female officer. She was by herself, small town, went up, he starts shooting through the door she luckily doesn't get hit gets behind her car and is smart enough. She gets behind her car and is uh, you know very smart enough. She gets behind the engine and the wheel, well, hunker's down. She's calling, so we're I mean we're probably a little over an hour away, but by the time you get the call, the call gets here and they call someone else and you finally get the call and then you go get geared up. So two hours she's pinned down. Her car looked like swiss cheese, like I mean, this guy's just been just laying, he's got who knows how much ammo and it turns out texas texan, yeah, it turns out to be a lot um.

Speaker 3: 1:17:08

so get there, um, get set up there. We're putting rounds in the house. Obviously, a bunch of us go up, we get her, we rescue her, get her out. We set up some snipers. There's no visual, we can't get a visual on this guy in the house. Everything's blacked out. But they're putting rounds through the house. I mean, reportedly he's the only one in there. He's putting rounds out of the walls and doors.

Speaker 3: 1:17:38

So this goes on for a pretty good while we're in this kind of firefight and he stops. So we're not really sure. Like, did we hit him? So time goes by. You know how these? Well, I don't know if you know how. It's an eternity on some of this stuff. It just takes forever. So we push the robot up and there's a can of gas right at the front door. So we've jacked with this dude long enough. He's not wanting to listen. So it's time to do some other stuff. Breach that front door when we put chemical in there. Well, he's not coming out. We don't know if he's got a gas mask. We don't know he could be in the house. We've tried to figure out like, can we get the water turned off, but now it's much activity that's taking place. We're not messing around with this dude, so we throw burners in, so it, but now it's much activity that's taking place.

Speaker 3: 1:18:34

We're not messing around with this dude. Yeah, so we throw burners in. So it's chemical, but it's a burner. What?

Speaker 1: 1:18:38

do you mean?

Speaker 3: 1:18:38

by that Catches fire. Yeah, okay, we intentionally throw it on a couch, oh really, and catch the house on fire.

Speaker 1: 1:18:46

Really.

Speaker 3: 1:18:46

Yeah, because we want this dude out. Yeah. And he's a danger. We want this dude out. Yeah, you know, and he's, he's, he's a danger. So house catches on fire and this dude has thousands of rounds.

Speaker 3: 1:19:01

And they start cooking off, and they start cooking off and they're going everywhere. I mean it's everywhere, just pop, I mean, and the house is just up in flames. And so that was it was pretty intense, like I mean. It was pretty intense, like I mean it was like 4th of July meets, you know for sure, war. It was very weird. But so, finally, this dude comes crawling out and he's been hit. We've hit him through the wall, he's been hit. He comes crawling out. So now we have to rescue him while all these rounds are cooking off in the front yard of this burning house. So we push up, you know, and cover and get him out of there. And that was crazy. And he survives, really, yeah, survives to go to prison for the rest of his life.

Speaker 1: 1:19:48

I'd say that's probably the worst case scenario for him, you know.

Speaker 3: 1:19:52

Yeah, yeah, it really was. And you know, I mean it's a sad deal. Ultimately he made very bad decisions, but he was a veteran. He had PTSD, really bad. Oh yeah. You know, once we talked to him you can't help but feel sorry for him. Yeah, and want to help, but at that point, like the deal's done, oh yeah. Everything's off the table at that point. Yeah, there's no helping. So you just wish like he had been reached a little bit before that.

Speaker 1: 1:20:20

Yeah, you ever deal a lot with gangs down there, or was it just drugs mainly? Well, obviously, if you have drugs, you got gangs.

Speaker 3: 1:20:26

Yeah, yeah, a lot of gangs, very specific ones, but a lot of gangs biker gangs, los Compadres and there was a cartel that we had to deal with.

Speaker 1: 1:20:39

How was that? I mean, you hear some people play off cartel like they're just oh, there's this cartel here, but then if you know and work around and deal with the cartel, how evil and sick of human beings they are on a whole other level. Were you dealing with that or were they just pushing drugs through there?

Speaker 3: 1:21:01

It's mostly drugs. Yeah, I mean it's mostly drugs. I mean we would have some incidents like where we'd find somebody in a park and they're done, they're smoked and killed and it's clear what's happened Really. It's drug-related, but it's also carter related. So uh, but mostly drugs, especially with i-40 rolling through there. It was a. It was a pretty good hug. Meth was probably clearly by far the worst drug. I mean it was just everywhere and, um, a lot of it passed through Amarillo, so much.

Speaker 1: 1:21:37

Oh, I can imagine. I mean there's a corridor through there. Yeah, so after SWAT you went into undercover, so I did a special like a street crimes unit.

Speaker 3: 1:21:48

So we did undercover, we did stings. It was a special ops called pace, product of criminal enforcement okay, so that all fell under that yeah and so, uh, you know, we we were. We worked closely with um the da fbi. We were always doing stings with those guys. We just worked together constantly with the marshals.

Speaker 1: 1:22:15

Really.

Speaker 3: 1:22:16

In fact, we actually ended up getting deputized several times because we worked so closely together.

Speaker 1: 1:22:23

Really.

Speaker 3: 1:22:23

And we would do different stings. Like you know, sometimes it was dope, sometimes it's. We had a huge issue with illegal gambling. We had like 40-something spots.

Speaker 1: 1:22:37

Really.

Speaker 3: 1:22:37

With illegal gambling. So we'd go undercover, go in gamble, you know, wearing the cameras and changing out, everybody's listening and doing all the stuff. Get the money go and then you have to set up a whole thing. We ended up closing down like 40-something illegal gambling establishments.

Speaker 1: 1:22:55

How fun is it going undercover?

Speaker 3: 1:22:58

It depends on what it is. But it's fun. I mean it's fun. It's just fun to see, like how long can I get away with this? You know, like, are they going to see through this? Or you know what's the deal. But really you just I mean it's just like talking to anyone else. You know, it's just like talking to anyone else. You just know in the back of your mind be prepared For sure. You're just on edge. Be prepared for whatever happens.

Speaker 1: 1:23:20

Did you ever get made?

Speaker 3: 1:23:22

No, but one of the guys. So we were in one spot and the guy that I went in my partner at the time he got made. But we went in separately, okay.

Speaker 3: 1:23:34

So he got made Somebody, somebody recognized him, someone that he had arrested, arrested once before. They kept looking over at him and I I didn't know what was going on at first, you know. And then I started kind of picking up on it and I was like, oh god, okay. And I was like I was like this guy's gonna get made and they're listening. We've got an app on our phone, so they're, they're listening, um, to both of us. And sure enough, like they're like hey, man, would you say your name?

Speaker 3: 1:24:01

you know, so the whole deal goes they're like you're a cop, you're a pig, you know. So they're just like going off and I look, I'm like this pig. It is so.

Speaker 2: 1:24:10

I just joined in. Oh really, fuck this guy. I mean, what else do you do, so you?

Speaker 3: 1:24:14

just go along. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course he had dropped me off and then we were in the same ride. But he had dropped me off and then pulled up and then I came walking up like I was just a dude walking up to come in. Anyway, he took off and I'm like, okay, you guys are going to give me another ride, pick me up around the corner somewhere.

Speaker 1: 1:24:36

Who were you guys? Are these bikers? Is this a bar Like? What was the situation?

Speaker 3: 1:24:40

No, this was another gambling spot.

Speaker 1: 1:24:42

Oh really.

Speaker 3: 1:24:42

Yeah, he got made in there.

Speaker 1: 1:24:44

Okay, so you're not dealing with, you know, gang members or whatever.

Speaker 3: 1:24:47

Well, here's the other thing is a lot of these gang members and, uh, I mean there was so much like dope deal, that was another reason we'd go in there, so it wasn't just to shut these places down. So much dope dealing that goes on in there really so a lot of guns, a lot of drugs.

Speaker 1: 1:25:02

I'm just thinking a lot of like old asian women in there, you know, gambling is how you do.

Speaker 3: 1:25:07

You do have that, so you have the mix. It's really weird. You've got, like you know, betty, betty watts in there. You know gambling. What type of gambling.

Speaker 1: 1:25:15

Are we talking, is it? I mean, obviously they're not in there just pulling slots. Oh they are. I was going to say they're not in there just pulling slots.

Speaker 3: 1:25:22

They have a lot of slots, really. You'll have other games, but then they'll have like back rooms where they've got some other games going on, you know, card games or whatever or whatever. Um, but mostly slots really.

Speaker 1: 1:25:38

That man, we had like more like homicides and um drugs related to the casinos or, I guess, the gambling rings and, and it was kind of a, it was almost like a do we bust these places, do we not?

Speaker 3: 1:25:47

because if you, I mean, all you had to do was set up the road and if a car left one of these places, if it wasn't betty white, you were getting dope or you were getting a gun or you were getting warrants so I mean it was really yeah, all of them, so it's a cash cow for you guys?

Speaker 3: 1:26:02

yeah, it's a cash cow. So it was, you know. And a lot of the patrol were like please, man, don't, don't take this one off. Our beat man. Like this is our, this is our honey hole. Like you can't take this from us, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:26:11

So no kidding, so you're using these gambling rings and just picking people up all day on them. Yeah, yeah, where are they hiding these? Are these in homes or back of businesses, behind like a closed secret door usually?

Speaker 3: 1:26:25

businesses. So it got to where it was really. I mean, you could spot them, because if you drove by a little business, you know like you'd have a strip mall and the windows are blacked out on one. That's what it is. So you just sit up. Yeah, I mean in fact Just like that we had an operation. We called it dark windows. That was like a big bust where we took down like 20 of these in a day and called it dark windows because it's that obvious. I mean because they don't want people, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:26:54

they don't want people knowing, so they're not even hiding them in the back, they're just blacking out the windows and the whole establishment just becomes a casino.

Speaker 3: 1:27:00

Yeah, and there were some that were in homes yeah, there were a few here and there that you'd actually hear about and different neighborhoods you know some of the worst neighborhoods and you finally get people in the communities don't really want to talk about it, but if you could get someone to talk about it you'd finally figure out where it was at.

Speaker 1: 1:27:16

Really.

Speaker 3: 1:27:17

We figured out there was a homicide. One dude got smoked, killed, drug out. They drove the car up a little ways, set the car on fire, had a gambling debt or something, I don't know. I mean, we caught the guy eventually. In fact it was all on live pd. Live pd was with us.

Speaker 1: 1:27:37

Really, yeah, really yeah, we just like. I love that show. It's hilarious. Yeah, no kidding, so they're just I mean just slinging everything out of a casino.

Speaker 3: 1:27:48

Yeah yeah, it's a great place. I mean, what better? You've got dopeheads who need that dopamine hit not only with their dope, but they want to play the games and wake. So it's a great place to sell dope. And all those guys are going to be carrying weapons. They're all felons mostly. And then you have the Betty Watts that literally are just going in there because they're retired.

Speaker 1: 1:28:14

They've got to get their fix so how does an old lady hear about I?

Speaker 3: 1:28:18

don't know. You know and I'd ask, and they'd be like, oh well, so-and-so, told me you know and I'm like okay. Literally just some old grandma in there. Yeah, grandma, grandpa, you know like, oh, I don't know, I just like you know, oh, I I don't know, I just like you know, and they make money.

Speaker 3: 1:28:34

I mean that's a part of the that's also illegal like I'd go and I went in there and gambled. That's how, that's how you could bust them and actually bust just the gambling establishment is them pay out. So plenty of time, go in there, win 500 bucks on a hit. You know that's a, it's. It's basically like a little tiny meth filled vegas. You know, it's just that's hilarious and there were people that we talked to. Man, I won five grand, I won 10 grand and you said you busted 20 in a day.

Speaker 1: 1:29:05

I mean, how many of these things are out there?

Speaker 3: 1:29:07

well, and, like I said, we had 40 we had 40 of them and we took down several you knew, and we took down several. That you knew of. Yeah, we took down a bunch and figured out it was a problem, you know, obviously like, okay, this is a bigger problem, so we got everyone involved. We got the counties, because Amarillo is split with two counties, okay, so we got both counties involved. We had the marshals involved, we had everybody involved and we took it even further.

Speaker 1: 1:29:36

Where we were taking it down the road of, like money laundering and getting the fbi involved and all that stuff so, because we found some of those establishments as well did you take them all down, or did you leave any for the patrol guys to be able to? We took them all down, did you?

Speaker 3: 1:29:51

yeah, it was, I felt kind of bad now you know that only lasts so long, right? They're right back up Eventually, like I think it was like two years. They were down two, two and a half years and then you start seeing some small ones pop up, you know, and you just leave them.

Speaker 1: 1:30:08

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:30:09

And okay, guys, there it is, go get it, because you want them to have. That, I mean, it's just so easy. It's just like picking cherries.

Speaker 1: 1:30:17

Oh for sure it's like car leaving got it going to jail and you just flip the light, you just wait for them to hit a violation.

Speaker 3: 1:30:24

Yeah, I mean of course they're going to have a violation, but the moment you see a violation, yeah, and usually like we were fortunate enough to be like undercover so we could just we'd be sitting in undercover stuff and just like chilling or whatever Just watch them and then follow them. You know, in our unmarked car, undercover stuff, and then okay violation here, come get them.

Speaker 3: 1:30:46

So we'd go and help those guys out too. Oh, okay, doing some of that, which I'm sure that's fun, yeah, it's fun. Yeah, it's it's fun. It's fun for them, you know yeah it's an opportunity, but once again it's also dangerous, like for sure guys leaving. Um, you know, we had one leave. Went to stop him, uh, jumped out and started shooting at us.

Speaker 3: 1:31:06

Took off really um, and luckily we we were all there chased him the corner. As we're coming around the corner, we've already got guys coming up. He starts trying to shoot at them and obviously he didn't survive. That incident Ended pretty quick, yeah, pretty quick.

Speaker 1: 1:31:24

What were you using for firearms? I used 9mm Glock. That's it, huh yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:31:32

Now, that was just my patrol pistol. Yeah, and what I carried? My pistol that I carried on SWAT, but yeah, ars M4s Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:31:42

No MP5s, you guys weren't rolling anything like that we did for a while.

Speaker 3: 1:31:46

We had some MP5s and they're fun, they're a lot, In fact, that incident I'm just talking about. They had an MP5 on that one. Oh yeah, yeah. So I mean we had several of them. Now I don't even know if they have any left. They ended up making a deal on a bunch of. They ended up trading them in for some other guys, but they're a lot of fun especially when you're doing some munitions and stuff, Like it was a lot of fun.

Speaker 1: 1:32:10

What was your? Yeah, you can smoke a dude real quick with him. He's like those things hurt too.

Speaker 3: 1:32:16

People don't understand how bad sim rounds hurt, especially those like ar rounds, like oh my gosh, I've got so many scars?

Speaker 1: 1:32:25

for sure I had scars for years. We did sim rounds in the military quite a bit and you don't? You think you're looking at him like this is gonna be like a paintball? Yeah, no, I shot a dude in his chest and it went through his camis, through a pack of cigarettes that he had in his chest and into, and just, I mean it was just mangled his chest. I mean those things are yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:32:46

Yeah, yeah, we did the best we could, not to not to blast people, you know up, but you know the situation called for it.

Speaker 1: 1:33:00

We did at least try to like put it on the on the hard plastic on the head yep, unless we were just jacking with somebody, they'd be like boom inside, die.

Speaker 1: 1:33:04

Oh, I, I caught, um. I had this staff sergeant when I was in and he, this dude, hated me and and we were at this mount town like doing this, you know, the sim rounds training, and he was this guy was such a coward, but so he was like one of the proxy, like he was watching you know one of the monitors or whatever. Oh yeah, but he didn't have his the armbands on and I caught him. He was on this other side of this wooden fence and I'm watching him. He's walking around and there was, like this, it was an old, um, like demilled military town that we were in.

Speaker 1: 1:33:35

So there's like pot, you know, like little steps, and it was like a planner's boxes that were like tiered and I walk up on these things and he's I mean he's here to the wall away on the other side of this wooden fence, and I just and I lit this dude up and he starts screaming, whatever his position was like monitor or whatever, and I unloaded my whole. He's on the ground like trying to roll out of the way and I sat there and I unloaded a whole mag on this dude, oh God Punishing.

Speaker 1: 1:34:03

And I jumped back off and ran, Because where we were, we were all kind of like took over this position. We were watching this block for the simulation shit. And where I was and I saw it moving Cause you know, through the, through the slots of a wooden fence, and I thought it was our enemy coming and so. But I looked through real quick Cause I didn't want to. Just if it was a platoon over there, I was going to get my guys, I don't want to engage a whole platoon. But I saw I sneak up and I unloaded on him and I took off running. He could, none of us, nobody ever said a word to who it was. And so, yeah, I got the last laugh on him and he was bitching for a week about it. I'm like, oh, my calf muscle, Just his whole back just lit up and he's rolling around on the ground.

Speaker 3: 1:34:44

That's awesome we would have. Man, it was hard to get guys, get the guys, some of them not, some of them loved it, uh, but get regular patrol to train with some munitions. For that reason, yeah, just suck. I mean it does suck, but you know, it's one of those I'm just telling, like, look what you know, what do you? What would you rather have you want to? You want to get the real thing hitting you, or you want to train in here and it's going to hurt way more learn some lessons like you know when you're getting hit, why you're getting hit.

Speaker 1: 1:35:16

Yep, you know you learn from mistakes real quick when you catch a sim around in the.

Speaker 3: 1:35:20

Yeah, I guarantee you, I guarantee you're gonna pie that corner just a little bit better, a little bit slower. It's in a you know or you're gonna look. You're gonna look at that threshold a little bit longer and take that a little bit slow.

Speaker 1: 1:35:33

Change your angles real quick. That's right, yeah angle of awareness.

Speaker 3: 1:35:40

It was always fun playing the bad guy, oh for sure. On those deals where you're just like, oh, I'm going to get this dude. He is not paying attention.

Speaker 1: 1:35:48

It was always fun. I got voluntold to grab a couple of my buddies and we had to go out for a grunt unit that was doing their workups getting ready to place. We were playing the opposition force on them and and we're in. We called it castle town. It's on penalty marines of our train out there. They know castle town anyways. They had this little village and we're doing the night mission and there was only like eight of us versus a platoon of these grunts and so us being the just the belligerent assholes we were at the time, I was like, hey, I'm gonna go lay out in the field. They're gonna walk right by me. You guys distract them and sure as shit, like before, when they're all getting their brief, I go lay out in this out in the field and you hear them coming and I'm talking. They are walking almost on me and they're all silent. I'm just. It took everything in me not to just start laughing because it's working. You know they're MVGs, but I'm in it's tall grass to get up to this little house and we they start going through the windows and all this good stuff. My buddies are up top and they got their helmets on this. I don't know if it's on a barrel or a stick and they're popping them up and they're running around on the roof and I got guys in all different levels so you know every level had something to engage on and I the platoon kind of splits and the one group piles through this window so the whole platoon goes in this room on one floor and I get up behind them and I just fall right in with them and they have no idea that I'm not part of their platoon, like the last guy never picked up on it. They go through the window and I walk in that room and they're all talking like okay, we're gonna, and I just flip it on three round bursts and I just, and I just start mowing these dudes down and the instructor's like dad, dad starts screaming over they're all. They're like we're doing it again.

Speaker 1: 1:37:39

And so this time there was a stairwell that came up and then there was a ladder that went up to the roof and so all of us are up there at this point. And this kid his name was Brown, his last name is Brown he was the most Louisianaisiana backwoods like coon ass dude you've ever been in your life. This dude would set snares and catch dogs in like iraq and shit, like one of those just for fun. The grunts are working up the the stairwell and we're all there's like six of us. There's this hole in the concrete. We're on the roof and we're looking down. We could see like their barrels and stuff coming and so we're spraying down there and just being complete assholes.

Speaker 1: 1:38:16

And god is my witness. You hear him like let's frag it, because you know those blue dummy grenades that just, they're just like a little mini flashbang, sure. Like let's, let's frag them, frag them, so brown. He's standing across from me on the hole in this roof and he looks me, goes I'm gonna catch it, and I'm like you're gonna what? And this grenade comes flying up god is my witness. It rolls up his flack, he juggles this thing and I'm like slow motion, like watching this grenade come through this hole. He grabs his flashbang grenade and, as it's rolling up and grabs it, throws it back down the hole, hits this marine dead in the face and explodes and the instructor's like dead, all of you are dead. So they had this. They're like you can't throw grenades at people's faces.

Speaker 3: 1:39:01

And we're like it's pitch black.

Speaker 1: 1:39:02

We're on our roof. You guys threw it at us. We just threw it back. But I'll never forget. As long as I will be on my deathbed I'm going to catch you and I'm like, catch what? This grenade? And he rolls right up just like that grunt, just right up through the hole and he grabbed this thing off of him and the guy must have still been looking up like waiting for the explosion and catches that it's a real steel.

Speaker 1: 1:39:23

Yeah, yeah I mean that thing weighs like a pound or two and split this kid kid wide open. They had to stop the whole thing. We kind of got our asses too, because they thought we did it on purpose. I'm like, listen, you guys hired us to be the op for it, threw a grenade at us, we threw it back. You know like, yeah, we did that shit all night and it was so and we just it was so much fun. But yeah, I mean, we were all shot to shit and you learned real quick and you gave up before, when you knew you were caught so we had some pretty so pan.

Speaker 3: 1:39:51

You ever heard of Pantex Pantex? Pantex is outside of Amarillo, so it's a nuclear. They make and have pieces of nuclear weapons, okay. And it's in Amarillo, okay, just right outside of Amarillo, so it's a big deal. I mean you can't get your car anywhere close to there without having people roll up like military.

Speaker 1: 1:40:19

Okay.

Speaker 3: 1:40:20

Their people roll up on you, so they're highly trained. Most of them are ex-military or are military. We trained with them a lot, and one well, more than once, but one one night, and it was the whole night, which was really fun. Uh, we went through like two towns with all these different places acting like a piece of this had been stolen. So we've got, we've got. We've planned this thing out for months, so there are role players, like throughout two towns and like five different locations, and so we're getting you know the whole setup is like.

Speaker 3: 1:40:59

We're getting intel where it's going and where you know so we're chasing it, we're doing all the stuff, and so we're running in these big giant buildings, we're having to go through and there's role players on every floor and in stadium and all this stuff. So the whole night we're just like that. That was just a blast. I mean, we trained with those dudes quite a bit, but, um, that was a lot of fun. You really get to see the difference in training.

Speaker 3: 1:41:23

When you yeah, when you train oh, for sure not only different departments, but then between like who's trained military, who's trained uh, you know, just like a SWAT operation or whatever. So but it was, it was a lot of fun what was your favorite part about being undercover?

Speaker 1: 1:41:39

you mentioned a little bit, before we jumped on, about working like, uh like with bikers, and all that I mean was that that had to have been interesting. I think, um, I think it's just you know.

Speaker 3: 1:41:52

It's just you know it's just. How do you get them to trust you? Okay, how do you get them to? And the most interesting was, psychologically to me, really, how do you get someone to just believe you are what you're and a lot of times, it's just what you're making yourself out to be. So it's, it's really. It's really not that easy, but it's also not that difficult. So, coming, coming, for I think what helped me a lot in any time, anytime I ever did that, was just being relaxed and being myself. But but thinking I'm this is what I'm involved in now yeah um, I'm gambling, I'm a gambler, that's what I am.

Speaker 3: 1:42:46

Um, I'm this or that. So psychologically not, not even thinking that you're someone else, that you're just this person. So to me, that was the I don't know. That was probably the most fascinating part about doing it.

Speaker 1: 1:43:02

How long would you go undercover for some of these things? I mean, are you talking months, is it weeks? Because you see some shows and they I mean these guys are embedded in motorcycle gangs. For it seems like years almost. I mean, did you ever have any long situations where you were embedded?

Speaker 3: 1:43:17

No, we didn't do anything long. It was usually like shorter term I mean you might do some longer where you're buying dope a few times or something like that, where you're the connection or you're going with someone who's buying the dope and you're just hanging out with them and them and you're like the the friend because they're a ci or something like that. Um, so you know that kind of stuff. It's it's pretty short term because you're just looking like who you're trying to get that next bust, to figure out where the dope's coming from. So it's it's pretty fast turnarounds. Now we did have some guys like that were in narcotics or that were in the DEA. That would do longer stints.

Speaker 1: 1:43:59

But is that? Who's doing those long ones?

Speaker 3: 1:44:01

yeah, usually if they the, you know, the closer they get to the DEA world, they're doing a little bit longer okay in that, and even then it's kind of, it's kind of hit or miss Got to be something major for them to get embedded like that.

Speaker 1: 1:44:16

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:44:17

Yeah, you got to go because that's a really dangerous position to be in?

Speaker 1: 1:44:22

Oh for sure. What's it like writing with an informant, I guess, to go buy drugs. Is that pretty scary? No.

Speaker 3: 1:44:33

Really? No, it's not really really. I don't know. Yeah, I mean you just know I, you know we would just trust our guys. Okay, you just knew, because anytime you're doing that, you've got like people are following you, you've got the team ready to take down anyone that needs to be taken. So you just know, like I trust these guys, they're not going to do anything. They're not going to do anything, they're not going to let anything happen. I mean anything can happen. So it's really just like a I mean it's just a normal conversation. That's wild.

Speaker 3: 1:45:05

It's just very like very calm and very chill. I don't know how to explain it. Yeah. It's just like another day at work. You just hey, let's go do this.

Speaker 1: 1:45:17

I don't know. I guess you kind of have to, because if you start showing any nervousness or fear or anything like that, I mean I'm sure you probably get sniffed out real quick by some of these people.

Speaker 3: 1:45:27

Yeah, and a lot of people. I mean, it's not that simple. A lot of times we would just do stuff like that, where we're getting cis to do it and sometimes maybe we do an introduction, like we let. That's how, how you get in. You've got to get an introduction somehow. Okay, so the ci might introduce, but that takes a lot of time to build up to, but at any point you get enough evidence and enough. Then you don't even have to do that, you just take them down right there. Yeah, like, or you set up another buy and do a buy bust where, okay, you know now we're meeting, so the ci is with you, you're with them, maybe there's been an introduction or maybe they know you're going to be there. They buy the dope and then the bust happens, got it so, and then you're on to the next one, like can you, can you spend this guy?

Speaker 1: 1:46:15

so when you bust that guy, are you just interrogated him, trying to get his suppliers all that?

Speaker 3: 1:46:20

and then that's what just you're just after the next, after the next, it's the next, like who's who's the top, where's this coming?

Speaker 1: 1:46:25

from and that's what getting them to flip and then they cut down on sentence time or all that stuff to if they give up information and all that. Is that the whole point of it exactly, yeah, that's it.

Speaker 3: 1:46:35

Like how, how far can I ride this? Yes, you'll get to a point where it's going to stop like somebody's going to be like no, I ain't doing. You know, screw you, I'm not doing this you said you were working with.

Speaker 1: 1:46:46

What was that like dealing with those dudes, because that's when you had. I mean you're when we met. Your hair was hair was almost down to your chest. You know it was pretty crazy seeing the difference now.

Speaker 3: 1:46:58

It was funny, even as a cop and that's kind of what. Like got the idea Like when I was just on the street patrol you know I kept my head shaved, that was just easier. And you know I'm arresting these dudes, like I'm arresting them and they're like hey, bro, we gotta stick together, you know oh, they think you're they think that. They think because I'm this big, you know, white dude with a shaved head, some tattoos and they automatically just yeah, half the time, and you know, of course people are laughing.

Speaker 3: 1:47:32

The other officers are like these dudes are these dudes are kind of sweet on you, these guys? Are they really like you? You know, I mean, so it happened more than once really that idea, but um, I mean, it's just a, it's an association thing, like for sure, they just, they just see an image and they just make an assumption and they think they're just because if you were as a cop, as a all right dude, yeah, yeah, that's hilarious that they automatically thought that I think you know what's going on here.

Speaker 3: 1:47:59

You're going to jail. What is this? We?

Speaker 1: 1:48:02

There's no we in this.

Speaker 3: 1:48:05

There's a me and there's a you.

Speaker 1: 1:48:07

I'm the cop, you're the criminal. That's about the we's we're getting here. That's wild that they would even consider even saying something like that I know.

Speaker 3: 1:48:16

And I'll tell you, as a cop I was very. I was really laid back. I mean, I got in plenty of fights and plenty of foot chases and all this stuff. You're going to have those people regardless. But if I could avoid a fight then I would for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:48:34

I mean you don't want. I mean every fight and every situation that is escalating is just putting your life in danger. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:48:40

Yeah, and you know other people got it, so I would do everything I could in my power to de-escalate a situation. Yeah, and you, I mean you pick up on cues, like you know when someone's about to run, you know, and like you know when someone's about to run, you know, and you know eye movements and like what is it?

Speaker 1: 1:48:56

what is it?

Speaker 3: 1:48:56

starting to tense up and you know they're turning their feet, they're doing this, whatever. So you pick up on their heart. You know their shirt's bouncing 10 million miles an hour. You know like their adrenaline's going for a reason, uh. So you pick up on all these things and and just using words like hey man, I can see what you're about to do. It's not a good decision. You know you're going to get hurt. Somebody's going to get hurt Just being able to talk to people, and so I was. I was always very um. I was the guy that if there were three or four officers on a scene the, the perps or the crooks or whoever they're like I want to talk to that guy. I ain't talking to you and I ain't talking to you. I'm talking to that dude right there Because I just didn't get amped up. I just wasn't getting it. And if I had to get amped up, I did, and the moment it was over, it was over. It's just a switch.

Speaker 1: 1:49:49

You turn it off and you go right back down, do you feel a lot of guys have a hard time with that? I do, yeah, why? Is it just because of life experience, or I think so.

Speaker 3: 1:49:59

I think, depending on you, know, because you're talking, some of these guys are coming in. You know, we taught the academy. We had a SWAT week where they had to fight us for a week. Okay, we put them through scenarios and like all kinds of stuff where they had to fight us for a week. You're seeing these kids come in and, um, I call them kids, I mean they're adults, but, um, they've never been in the fight, yeah, in their life. Yeah, you know what was it? Was it fight club?

Speaker 3: 1:50:24

Like you don't, you don't even know who you are unless you've been punching the face. I mean, to some degree there's, there's some truth to things like that. If you, you don't even know if you can survive a fight 100% you don't know, if you've never been in a fight, you have no idea how you're going to react. So I think, training these guys and they don't know, since they've never done it, even putting them through that. So it's a moment they know they're safe, deep moment they know they're safe, deep down, they know they're safe. We're not going to hurt them, we're not going to kill them, but do you still?

Speaker 1: 1:50:58

see their mental stage of where they're at being able to be in a physical altercation if you're using ads or whatever.

Speaker 3: 1:51:05

Sure, and so then they get out on the street so they make it through, but they still know in those scenarios they're still safe. Technically they did, they have bruises.

Speaker 1: 1:51:14

It's not the ultimate fear level right.

Speaker 3: 1:51:16

So then they get out on the streets and man, they just, uh, they don't know how to talk to people that you know, that. They don't know how to, they don't know how to turn it off for sure.

Speaker 3: 1:51:28

And there there is a certain empowerment that you feel. I don't care who you are, you're going to feel a little empowered in that role as a law enforcement officer. You're there, you have been given the authority to take control of that situation. Whatever situation you walk into and you have a gun, and you have a badge and you have the backing of the department behind you. And so I think that can go to anyone that's young and inexperienced and, you know, not a lot of life experience. That can go to their head pretty quick.

Speaker 3: 1:52:06

Real quick and then they don't have the ability, they haven't been through enough to know. Like, when I get to this point in my hyper vigilance, in that state and adrenaline, all these things, they can't switch that off they don't know how to do it and it gets them in trouble yeah, it does and it's.

Speaker 1: 1:52:25

It's scary to think too. I've dealt with law enforcement, have my run-ins and stuff and you could tell. You know, when you run into a cop. And I got in an incident actually I was still in the marine corps and I had this guy two cops show up and they're mps, but one of them was just maxed screaming and I'm just like, and he's trying, where were you chewed my ass? And this other one is just sitting there, chill. And after the guy chews my ass and threatening whatever you're gonna get arrested, whatever the one comes over, he's like what happened? I'm like, bro, this is what happened, yeah. And I explained to him. He's like why did you explain to him? Like, look at your partner here, bro. Like I couldn't get worded and you know. Then, once he went, explained it and I'm like, yeah, the guy's like why don't you just listen for a second? And but you could definitely tell.

Speaker 1: 1:53:12

A perfect example I got in an uh, uh, an insurance fraud accident. I had this woman I'm sure you've witnessed and seen him. I hit her with my truck and we pull over, we exchange information. It was a total. At the time I didn't know it was. It was a, you know, like the. You see him get funny, slam the brakes on and you see him get in front. He slammed the brakes on and you see him on those dash cam videos. It was one of these, the whole situation, this was last year. Pull over, she has her son, which is, I don't know, in his mid-20s, and then he's got his baby in the car and we pull over, exchange information. Hey, I get a picture of her ID, she gets a picture of mine. Hey, how do you want to handle this? We call everything's fine, cool, I'm sitting there with my buddies got a buddy was behind me in a truck, saw the whole entire thing. She leaves. We take. You know, we eventually leave a few minutes later talking like man, this sucks, we're just beginning of a trip. Like god, what a way to start a trip. You know, I get a call that later that evening this cop, we're putting a warrant out for your arrest for a hit and run endangerment, threatening the life of a baby. I'm like what are you talking about? You better turn yourself in immediately. And I'm like what are you talking about? And this guy wouldn't listen to me. So my buddies and I, we get in the car. We drive a freaking hour. Back to where this guy was, turn myself in.

Speaker 1: 1:54:30

I walk into the police department and this Gomer pile, pile, the biggest. Just, you can tell this guy has never had the, the power of authority. He just it's typical using everything that he has in his power to to, to come at me, right, this guy's yelling we're putting a warrant on first. I'm like for what? He's like a hit and run. I'm like, how is this a hit and run? He's like you were a hit and run. I'm like, how is this a hit and run If she has a picture of my ID and here's her ID on my phone.

Speaker 1: 1:55:02

How did I hit and run?

Speaker 1: 1:55:03

Well, that's what she's saying. I'm like you haven't even got my story. I'm like, like, is this an episode of punk? This dude's like screaming at me and then I start yelling at him and I'm like dude, how do you do your job? I'm like I'm done with you. Go give me a supervisor. Like I you. I'm like you haven't even taken my statement, but he's just automatically I'm the bad guy because she so, when she went back to the scene, called the cops, has her son laying on the hood, baby's crying, they get rushed off to the hospital and I'm like and I thank god I have my buddy's camera guy there, we have pictures and video.

Speaker 1: 1:55:36

I'm showing him, like why don't you just take a breath, de-escalate the situation and get the story that you're supposed to get from both sides? And I'm like, explain to me my side, if I hit and ran from this woman, how she, how did you get my information from her, sir? And he was just and you could tell it wasn't even registering with him. And I'm like, how are you on the streets trying to help people if this is your mindset? And it was just. And then, finally, like I think it was the, the chief, when this woman comes out and this is lexington police, by the way, like this department and she comes out and I'm like, can I have a conversation, an adult conversation, with you, like can I just, can I just talk? And she's like she had to like calm this guy down. I'm like jesus christ, this is who you have working for you. I'm like this it's 2024 and this is, this is what you guys are putting out on the street.

Speaker 1: 1:56:29

It was scary, yeah, and it's scary that there's a lot of law enforcement. That's what gives the bad rep instead of. You know, and I worked in a bar for several years as a bouncer this is not relating to this by law enforcement, but you have those bouncers in there that are automatically grabbing, snatching dudes and it's a fist fight. Every time I've been in a fight in my life like it's, I don't, I don't enjoy getting punched in the face. It's just some guys live for it, not my thing, I have no problem with it, I have no problem, but I don't look for it.

Speaker 1: 1:56:56

So my approach every time drunk guy like hey, man, and they, you know, as soon as you feel intense, listen, we can walk out of here, or you're getting carried out of here. These are your options. Like just come with me and talk to me, else and I'd say nine times out of ten and be like all right, you know, and they'd come with you. But then you get those bouncers, you're done, they'd grab, and then it was instantly it would blow up. Then those dudes, friends, see this and then they're fighting and I'm just like guys, like give them the option first let's, and then as soon as you, they've turned, and then, okay, you escalated the situation. We got to get you out of here. But I feel like that's same with a lot, a lot of enforcement officers like hey, like this, and this is this is why we do what we call SWAT week.

Speaker 3: 1:57:32

It doesn't always help, but we put them through scenarios and we SWAT guys, we play bad guys, so they have to put hands on us. They do the stuff and if they do their job properly, this was the deal. I mean, sometimes they were going to have to fight regardless. You've got to test them a little bit.

Speaker 3: 1:57:50

In fact, they had to one-on-one box us for a minute. We did that intentionally, but one of the things was you know, if you do your job correctly in some of these scenarios and try to de-escalate, you're not going to have to fight, you don't get hurt, we don't get hurt. And then we tell them that over and over and over, like use your words, explain, just be a human being.

Speaker 3: 1:58:13

Treat them like a human being treat them like a human, like treat them just like you would anyone else, like your family, like your friends. Talk to them the moment you need to do something, do it, oh yeah, but still, you can still have a conversation, even when I can be in the middle of grabbing somebody and putting them in a hold, and do it and still talk to them calmly and it, I guarantee it till it helps. Because and I tell them like you'll see, I tell them, you'll see, you're gonna put hands on us and we're gonna start doing stuff, and you're gonna start doing stupid stuff that stupid cops do, and I'm actually gonna get pissed off, just like one of these people will, and then I'm gonna kick your ass you think it's a fear or just it is lack of experience, but I mean that also comes with fear.

Speaker 3: 1:58:54

Yeah, it is fear, it's a fear, or just lack of experience, but I mean that also comes with fear. Yeah, it is fear, it's fear. Like you know, they want it over as quickly as possible.

Speaker 3: 1:59:06

And you've been in some high, intense situations when that adrenaline dump you get it, they get it right then, and when they've never had a lot of experience with that. That's why I say like, if you've never been in the fight, if you've never been through anything intense, really fighting with your brother and sister doesn't count. You know, like those intense moments, if you've never had those, you don't know how to deal with it. You don't have stress inoculation, and that is a stressful situation when you go to put hands on somebody that doesn't want you to put hands on them or you know whatever, and so they just get too amped up and then you have the kicker. Then you have for some, for some, it's just that for some they get that experience plus, they know they have the power and that power trip.

Speaker 3: 1:59:52

some of them go on a power trip and you're, you better do what they tell you to do and how they tell you to do it, or my, I've got the power, I'm the man, I'm the one you know, and it's a, it's a thing and it really just it comes with a lack of knowledge, a lack of it's just ignorance, yeah, along with lack of experience and not knowing how to deal with that adrenaline, and that you know. Whatever you want to call it, and it's sad it's training, training, training, training, and so many officers don't get enough of it. You can put somebody through a six-month academy. It's not enough.

Speaker 1: 2:00:32

You can put somebody through a six-month academy. It's not enough Until you've been in a true street fight. There's no way to replicate that, no, and when you're getting your ass whooped, dude's on top of you and they got the upper hand, and then, especially being a law enforcement officer with your gear on you, have that weight on you. I mean it's got to be a really, really terrifying moment. Yeah, and it's like how do you?

Speaker 3: 2:00:56

I mean, obviously, swat week helps a lot with that- yeah, we see people there like I mean, there are plenty of them moments where you, you see, the light comes on, that it's not the job for them really oh yeah really like I couldn't tell you how many people wash out oh, no shit, because it's SWAT week during the academy.

Speaker 1: 2:01:14

Yeah, oh okay, I thought this was something that you guys put on every year to train up officers.

Speaker 3: 2:01:19

We did training with them and we put them through scenarios as well, but this is just before they ever get out on the street, because we want to test them before they even get out in FTO phase. For sure, we want to know, like, do you even have the capability? You know, we had a saying there are some people that are meant to be the police and some people that are meant to call the police, and it's okay, either one you are.

Speaker 3: 2:01:41

It doesn't matter, it's fine, go get a different job. Some people just don't. They're not aggressive. Go on, and some people are overly aggressive. You know what happened and I'll tell you. There were real instances that I saw on a regular basis where you get sad to say. You get the guy that's been picked on and he finally gets a little bit of power and he goes on a power trip. You know, and you see that as well, where they get overaggressive because now I'm in charge and I can do what I want. You have to do what I say. So you get both sides. You get people that freeze up and they can't. But you'll see the light bulb come on like they freeze up, they're done, they're in the loop it's over and you're just like, hey, let's go talk.

Speaker 3: 2:02:29

We give them a chance, we don't just kick them out, but we tell them, like this is the moment, this them a chance. We don't just kick them out, but we tell them, like this is the moment, this is the aha right, like I saw it. So now you have to make a decision. You know you're either got to step up your game you gotta, you know, not go crazy but but make the decision and and that's a that you know, get on that topic.

Speaker 3: 2:02:51

Even people just out here carrying guns, like they have no idea if they have the mentality or the capability of hurting anyone, and so now they're just carrying something that could be taken away from them, yep. And so I'm big on especially going through that, like seeing officers who really, just, they really wanted to do it but they just weren't capable just, they really wanted to do it but they just weren't capable. And I think spending a lot more time in academies weeding some of that through that, whether it's the over aggression or under aggression, yeah, trying to find a happy medium would would really help a lot. It's just it's hard to do, it costs a lot of money.

Speaker 1: 2:03:29

Well, not just, not just that. I feel, especially nowadays with the image of police officers. You guys don't have herds of people knocking down your doors that want to be cops. You're taking what you can get.

Speaker 3: 2:03:42

Yeah, they are yeah, you know, when I went through the academy, 900 people took that test holy cow.

Speaker 1: 2:03:49

Yeah, what's do you know? An average of today? Yeah, about 30. See, that's scary. And out of that 30, how many of them do you think are actually legit qualified to be Out of that?

Speaker 3: 2:04:01

30, probably 15. Pass just the beginning test I'm just talking about before you can be accepted and then they have to do multiple tests before they can even get enough people. And then you go through the background checks and then you go through like you've got to do a polygraph, you've got to do all this stuff. By the time they get through that you might get three people. So now you've got to test again, and so it's really difficult For sure, really difficult At times, man.

Speaker 1: 2:04:35

I mean obviously with the media and and we say it because we, you know, we, I've said it I'm probably on this podcast before but I feel that our era law enforcement is now our vietnam, is our vietnam era vets and how they're treated, how they're looked up, looked down upon. You look at these little kids and they're just fuck back to the cops. And just this little ass kid and I'm like where did that? How did that become the norm, the normal? Now, you know, and just f12, f this, but they're the first ones that'll call and it's just what our, this whole divide inside of our country. And I just had, uh, I don't know if you know, raul garcia. He's an instructor here. He was just on um a couple episodes ago, but he, uh, we were talking.

Speaker 1: 2:05:18

I'm like it just it blows my mind, and I said it on that episode, that the biggest thing, that the, the funniest thing about the black lives matter movement and the defund, the policing was defunding the police, yeah, and it, just as anybody that has any thought in their mind, it's like, okay, let's take their funding away. It's less training they get to get, they're less qualified to be on the road. They got shittier gear. You're putting a more dangerous law enforcement officer on the road, protecting the communities by defunding them, when instead you should have this movement of give all, fund these motherfuckers as best as we can. They have all the best training. They're going through all the psyche valves, the testing, to make that qualification. Pay them more so that way you're able to have more people applying to this position so you can be more selective on what officers you're putting on the road. Then you have no excuse.

Speaker 3: 2:06:09

Yeah exactly, and not only that. All that point that you made about you know, you know shitty gear and doing all this stuff, taking away their training, all this stuff and defunding is also gonna. They're not getting raises, they're not making any money and they're pissed off they're pissed off and they're out there doing this.

Speaker 1: 2:06:27

You want them out there. When I say shitty job, it being to me and I'll say it all day, like we, we have a program in our charity to support law enforcement officers. But when I say this like this isn't coming from a hateful side of things, because it is the shittiest job to me. You're dealing with domestic. You're going in homes that are hoarders, cat piss, dog shit filled, dealing with children that are in living in these environments and you're seeing that, dealing with death every day, homicides, car accidents, and then you got to go home and kiss your wife and kids and sit down at dinner with them. Like to me, that is probably the shittiest job. That and I I say this with love.

Speaker 1: 2:07:08

But because these cops aren't law enforcement, aren't getting enough credit, they're not getting enough support and they're dealing with all of this and they've got to go home every single day with this weight and pressure and anxiety and stress and hate from the community and they get up every single day and they do it again. For most of them, dog shit pay and they should be getting double of what it is. And then you have the media that's crucifying them. They're not talking about the cop that dove through some window and rescued a family. They're not talking about a guy that pulled a kid out of a burning car.

Speaker 1: 2:07:39

All you see is the negative, the negative, the negative. And then that affects their life, it affects their morale and their families and their kids, and then it just trickles down from there. I mean, it is such. It is what kills me. And we see how much money is getting shipped to ukraine and all these other countries and I'm obviously me. I'm veterans. We should be taking care of a veteran. But right then, right there on that same level, is our law enforcement officers. The pay should be doubled immediately. And you talk, and I talk to some of these guys in these little rural towns and you hear what they're making. You're just like what in the? Yeah, how, like how, and how are you surviving? I've, I've heard of cops that have second jobs.

Speaker 3: 2:08:17

Yeah, yeah, and and that was a big thing for a lot of officers is, uh, you know you work as much off duty as you can. So now you're already working, you know, 40, 50 hours a week on your regular patrol or whatever role you're doing. For me it was a lot um, and a lot of officers are doing, you know they're picking up any kind of gig they can, yeah, off duty, so they're getting time away from their family holidays. You know all this stuff. So it's I mean, you're right, it's a lot of stress, it's um and it's it's hard on, it's hard to be an officer. That was one of the reasons you, you know, I got out. I didn't stay for 30, 40 years because I didn't want to turn. What's happening? Officers are turning into cynical, like hateful people by the time they're in.

Speaker 3: 2:09:09

Not all of them, I'm not, but I mean when you see this stuff constantly and you're constantly getting just belittled and the hate and all these things, and there's plenty of people out there who come up and say thank you, for sure you do.

Speaker 3: 2:09:25

For sure, stuff, that, that that. But sometimes the other voices are just very loud and they cut deeper. And they do, they cut deeper, and you're very appreciative for those that that appreciate you. But, um, I'm seeing these officers out here. Who, man? They give it, they give it all you know. They're in their whole lives, 30, 40 years. And then I mean they are rightfully, though so they're, they're cynical, they don't want to be around anyone else. That's not an officer or their family. You know everyone's a shit bag and and and and it's. It's no fault of their own, it's just how that culture becomes over time, and oftentimes they feel isolated. Do you think it's because that's all they're dealing with is just the negative.

Speaker 1: 2:10:11

It's not like firefighters are called, an old lady fell and they get to go lift her up and rescue a cat out of a tree. I mean, when you get the call, it's something I'd say. Correct me if I'm wrong. 99 percent of times something negative is going on. Yes, and that just I mean it has a chip away at you over 20, 30 years.

Speaker 3: 2:10:27

It does it does it really does, and you just, I mean it just eats at your soul just eats at you, at you, and so how do you deal with that the mental side of that? And then these guys are retiring and three years later they're dead or they're dying. Because what are they doing? They don't have a hobby, they're drinking too much to deal with the stress that they've had their whole life. They don't have the VA.

Speaker 1: 2:10:55

No, that's another thing that blows my mind about law enforcement in this country that we haven't evolved to match what our now law enforcement are going through. You take a veteran we went off to war, we signed that dotted line. They go to war, we come back, cool. And then you sit here and look at these guys and I mean some of these guys been out of afghan and iraq 20 years and they're still struggling just as bad as the day they got back. Then you take a cop that never gets to turn it off out of that 20 years you might have four or five deployments overseas, one or two. Some guys. They come back, they've done their time a cop. You you're in the streets every single day for your whole career dealing with negative bullshit and then you're getting out of being a law enforcement officer.

Speaker 1: 2:11:44

There's some charities out there, I get it, but you guys don't have a va, you don't have these programs. And I'll tell you what in our, in our organization, when we started our cop program, no one gives a fuck. It is our hardest funding program to raise money for right. I could throw anything out for any veteran, no problem. The cat missing a fucking foot and bob tail, and people donate 10 grand like it's nothing. Sure, cops, no one cares people, only people that support law enforcement. That, from our experience, previous law people that support law enforcement. That, from our experience, previous law enforcement, families of law enforcement, that's it. The community does not care about law enforcement officers, but we're not thinking of this like why how do we help these cops that just did 20, 30 years of dealing with negative bullshit, getting shit on his whole entire career? Then he gets out and then it's like, oh cool, have a nice life yeah, no, you're right you know it's.

Speaker 1: 2:12:37

It's sad to think, it's really sad to think about. If you really dig down into it it's like nobody's giving. I'm sure the community's giving it thought, but as far as civilians that aren't law enforcement related, the only reason I do is because we help so many of them. The active duty guys get training and then we I just have so many friends and talk to cops and it's like god, how do you, what do you guys do? What? What do you do for a guy that helped zipped up a body bag for some little girl and you got to go home and put a smile on and watch your kids dance. For certain you know a little dance performance and you got to sit in that audience and put a smile on your face. When you're, that's all you're thinking about from that day's work, yeah, and then you're bottling it. That's what it comes down to yeah, it's, it's a lot of bottling.

Speaker 1: 2:13:21

You don't want to take that home and you don't want to.

Speaker 3: 2:13:23

You don't want to put that on anyone else, or your family especially and so you do you. You just take it on and and hold it in, and and, and it does build and, and then there's a cult, there's, there's a certain culture, right that that comes along with that, and it's uh, you don't talk about it. What do you do you go to? You go to choir practice. I don't know if you've ever heard of no practice, but that's uh, that's 8 am drinking when the shift's over. You know you're going to choir practice.

Speaker 2: 2:13:50

It's time, it's time to go drink this way, okay, and that's what a lot of drinking when the shift's over.

Speaker 3: 2:13:53

You know you're going to choir practice. It's time to go drink this away, okay, and that's what a lot of guys turn to. That's what a lot of it turns to. It's like, hey, you've been involved in this, you've been involved in that. What it usually turns out to be is, hey, let's go take care of this, let's get some drinks, and part of that idea is to like talk amongst yourselves, right, but but that turns into a lot of war stories and a lot of stuff and it's a lot of anger and it's like, you know, then it's, and then it fuels itself and next thing, you know, there's a bunch of cops getting in a fight because they just sat there and like stewed and yeah, in this stuff, this hate this, you know I feel that, like with a culture of men, who we are these days, especially with the influencers and all that stuff, and I it bugs me a lot when I hear these guys are like, oh, dudes, don't talk about it, dudes, don't.

Speaker 1: 2:14:45

Men, don't cry, men don't show feelings. And it drives me nuts because that's what leads you down some really dark paths with alcohol, drugs, domestic abuse, your kids, because you're not manly enough to go and talk or communicate with your wife or cry, pray, talk. I feel like this culture that we're all built around, especially veterans, law enforcement. It's the feel like this culture that's we're all built around, especially veterans, law enforcement. It's it's the non-manly thing to do and it's and I'll say it, man like me, I'll catch shit for it and I don't even give a shit learning how to cry to like just to get it out of me. I mean because when my I lost my brother and it was, it was the most traumatic shit I've ever been through. It was, it was absolutely horrible. I was there with my dad, my mom, my sister, it whole other level of trauma that I've ever done and I bottled it and I bottled it, but then once I had to like, feel to like to get it out of you. It was night and day of how I felt.

Speaker 1: 2:15:53

And then I see these guys and I talk to these guys and they got to be such a manly man about it. It's like, bro, it's okay. Like it's okay if you got to go to the mountains and just scream, grab a log and beat the fuck out of a tree, do it. But now I feel like, is this culture of who we are and there's it's coming a little bit more? But you get these big influencers and they talk about it and how. You're not supposed to act like that. You're not supposed to show feelings and emotions and it's to me I think that is the absolute worst thing you can do is bottle that shit and it just festers and it piles, and it piles and it piles and then you're taking it out on your wife, you're taking it on your kids, you're losing friends over it because you don't know how to express it and dude, it sucks.

Speaker 3: 2:16:34

Or, worst case, you're in your house shooting out, your out of the door and out of the walls. I mean it really does boil down to that. Or you're taking your life because you're just. I mean that it really just eats at the core of who you are, and so we're not built for that.

Speaker 1: 2:16:54

We're not built to hang on to that type of stuff. It's not healthy At the end of the day. It is not healthy to be able to not be able to express and communicate and to talk.

Speaker 3: 2:17:04

And that's a culture. That culture really breeds. I mean, I was in it for 20 years. It really breeds that exact thing. Like hey, like hey, you know it's cool man, you good, of course, you're good, it's good. I mean that that's it right that's the conversation. You're good. You need to talk about something. You're good. Of course you're good, let's go.

Speaker 1: 2:17:22

Let's go next one, next one next one next one, next one, you know just I don't know why that guy killed himself. He was such a good cop yeah because nobody ever took the time to talk to him about it. Yeah, same thing with these.

Speaker 3: 2:17:36

And they have. You know, I mean you'll hear like departments, because I was part of that like peer counselors, but it's still a culture is you don't talk about it. That's the deep. I mean they won't say that necessarily out loud like man talk, talk if you need talk, but the the underlying culture of it is you don't talk about it and you don't share it, you keep it. That's what men do, that's what we do, that's who we are. They blew line all the way and that's fine, man, I'll support any of them.

Speaker 3: 2:18:07

They're my brothers all of them, but I also want them to have the help. I want them to talk, I want them to explore, I want them to feel, I want them to have hobbies, I want them to know that, like this isn't life, your work is not your life, it's your job. It's a job, maybe it's your career, that's fine, but it's what you do for money. What are you doing outside of that? Are you taking care of yourself, your fitness? You know, seeing these cops who can barely get in and out of the car, or anyone for that matter, but you can't move. How are you going to fight? They're going to take care of yourself at a battle. You know, take care of your health, take care of your mental health, take care of your spiritual health. All of it matters and it's just, and you know, coming from you get inundated into this culture for sure, of what we're supposed to do and how we're supposed to act who we're supposed to be and now that this is our identity, this is it.

Speaker 3: 2:19:03

It's not your identity. You're also a father. You're also a mother you're also a brother, you're also an aunt, an uncle, child, you know, your son, a daughter. There's all these things that you are. Discover them, yeah, find them out.

Speaker 1: 2:19:19

Discover them.

Speaker 3: 2:19:19

You're a fisherman. You know you're a mountain biker, whatever it is you like to do, but some guys just they don't. I'm telling you, I've literally talked to guys like hey man, what do you do for fun Train? To guys like hey man, what do you do for fun, uh, train no, I said fun. What is your? Hobby uh, I clean my guns. Okay, that's a problem.

Speaker 1: 2:19:45

Yeah, it's a problem because you never, you're never, taking yourself out of the situation to be able to lay your guard down. Relax, think about something else, focus on something else. You know, I've had this conversation, probably on here, where the veteran community, these guys that are there's, they're in the same situation that they were 10, 15 years ago, coming back from war, and it's like how, how are we still here? And I think a lot of it is because that's their identity. Yeah, they're just disabled, grumpy veteran, that's it. And then you ask them the same questions like dude, what do you do? Oh, play my guns, like it's like bro, like okay, I don't want to be labeled. I don't want my identity to be some just veteran my whole life. I want to be a father. I want to be labeled. I don't want my identity to be some just veteran my whole life. I want to be a father. I want to be an entrepreneur, I want to be able to help the community. That's what my identity and why I want my identity to be.

Speaker 1: 2:20:40

But some of these guys, I'm just a disgruntled veteran. Disgruntled veteran that's your identity. That's who your kids are watching you become or who you are, and it's the same thing with every, all these, these communities that were just fed to be. Hey, this is who we are, this is our culture. We're going to just suffer through this and it's like you. You want to live that life. That's how you're living your life. You got such a short time on this earth in front of your children to raise your children, to be something, and that's who you choose to be.

Speaker 1: 2:21:12

Is this asshole? That is just this scrumpy veteran and I'm disabled and I saw shit overseas and that's all I'm gonna hold on to me it's like fuck that, bro. I have no problem talking about it. I think it's incredible to talk about it, tell the stories, laugh, cry over it, but like, who are you now? Yes, you've been out since 2008, bro. Yeah, and you're and you're. Oh, I'm a Marine Dude. Until the day we die, we're going to be Marines. That's who we are. Yeah, we never hang it up. Who are you now? Yeah, it's the same thing, man. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 2:21:42

It's sad, it's so sad, but then you get attacked for it. Yes, you, you got up because of this, or you're just you're. You're different. You don't know what you're talking about, bro. I'm not sitting here dwelling on my shit from 15 years ago exactly talk.

Speaker 1: 2:21:59

I love, I love sitting down with vets and law enforcement to re talk about old stories. That's, that's how we get to document these things and have these conversations. But like like you, what you're doing now, you're not some SWAT officer sitting here at home on your third, fourth marriage because you're miserable and your wife hates you and your kids don't want to be anything around you. It's like you have to evolve and you have to just become something new and identities they change. You've got to constantly find a new identity. I'd say every 10 years or so. You've got to. Okay, what are we in now? New hobbies, new passions, new friends, new families, growing, growing, constantly got to grow Stagnant. That's what's killing these guys is their stagnant life of not wanting to start a new identity and we're not knowing how to.

Speaker 1: 2:22:46

And fearful of it.

Speaker 3: 2:22:47

I mean there's a lot of fear. What I was mentioning, like getting out. I mean people just it was a complete mind-boggling Like did not understand. What do you mean? What are you going to do? Yeah, whatever I want to do, yeah, what do you mean? I can't do anything else but this. That is a lie. Do anything, not anything. I mean I'm not going to go out here and you know, I tell people all the time I'm clearly not going to go out here and be like, hey, I'm going to be a professional basketball player, it's not going to happen.

Speaker 3: 2:23:17

I know that.

Speaker 3: 2:23:18

But anything, anything that you're capable of doing, yeah anything you're capable of, you can go, do it, you can learn, you can do whatever it is you want to do. And that was that place I was at, where I watching these guys retire and die, and I'm watching these guys that are so cynical and, and you know, right as before my exit you know it was kind of the last shooting I'd gotten into and, um, this, this guy, this felon, uh, we had eyes on him. Undercover stuff, um, dope, gang guns, you know all the stuff. Seem, he comes out of the house. We got a description, confirmed identity, all these things. So we're there, we're ready to roll. He had gone back in before we could roll up on him, so we're waiting on him to come back out.

Speaker 3: 2:24:08

Comes out, same stuff, same outfit. Hey, let's move, we move on him. He starts firing. Same stuff, same outfit. Hey, let's move, we move on him. He starts firing and shooting at us. Get out. You know, I mean it's seconds, but he's running up the stairs. Of course it's an apartment complex so you can't just blast into these windows and doors, so you've got to take. He gets to the top, he turns, he's done. Um, realizing now it's not, it's not, it's not even him, it's his brother who's also in the same position. We didn't even know he was there. He's inside. So now his brother's dead because he pulled and fired at us, and he's also a wanted felon for all the same stuff so this guy, he wasn't just an innocent brother.

Speaker 1: 2:24:51

This guy, I mean, he obviously came out, he wasn't, he wasn't just an innocent brother. This guy, I mean, obviously came out shooting. No, he wasn't innocent.

Speaker 3: 2:24:54

He wasn't innocent. So he goes down. So now we have to do a rescue, knowing that his brother's also inside and armed, at the door of his apartment, all this stuff. So we get all that done. And you know, when you go through these things, you go through these things, you go through these incidents, and people are trying to question, like what you do when somebody's shooting at you, and so that's also where some of that cynicism and some of those things come from. Where you start. You know you're just like.

Speaker 3: 2:25:20

It's me against, it's us against everybody you know and, um, you know, you see these things and you guys know, like militaries to me and in my mind, military and law enforcement, we're, we're, we're in the same same blood, for sure. Uh, the stuff that you have to see and stuff you have to go through. So you see these things replay in your mind, but after that incident, you know, I'm just sitting there thinking I want to do other things, yeah, and I don't want to do other things, yeah, and I don't want to be identified as this and I dang sure don't want to. I mean honestly. Here's another thought. You mentioned it earlier.

Speaker 3: 2:26:00

As we're getting ridiculed, you know when people are asking questions that they shouldn't even be asking, you're asking me why I shot, when someone's shooting at me and I'm identified as a police officer, so there's things like that. And you think you know I'll, I'll put my life on the line for anybody, but I'm not going to prison for for that. You know what I mean. I'm not going to go to prison because you think I wasn't doing my job properly.

Speaker 1: 2:26:29

Somebody that wasn't there reading reading a report, trying to justify if it was yeah, legit or not.

Speaker 3: 2:26:35

So there's also that aspect of it and it's it's tough. You know that and I know that there's probably a lot of very similar things that take place in the military, where people are ridiculed over some of the actions that they take, like you weren't there, you didn't see, you don't know for sure um get brought up on war crimes.

Speaker 1: 2:26:52

You're getting charged by people that never even been deployed before, right?

Speaker 3: 2:26:54

yeah, same shit, yeah so it's, it's, it's a, it's a such a tough, tough culture to to just remain in and stew in yeah, um but you knew it wasn't for you at that point well, I? I knew because I'd already been taught, my wife and I'd already been discussing. I knew early on. I knew probably when I started, that I'd probably do 20 and out. Okay, just because I was observant enough to see the culture, I could see it immediately and recognized it for what it was.

Speaker 3: 2:27:35

Not that it's just all bad's not all bad, it's not all terrible, it's just. I knew also that there were just other things I wanted to do in life. I wanted to have a pretty good retirement. Sitting there waiting and I do they double match it's, I'm not even touching it. It's sitting there gaining five percent compound compound interest and I won't touch it until they make me. But having that, but then being able, knowing like I'm in my 40s, I can still go have another career, I can still do other things.

Speaker 1: 2:28:02

Life's just getting started, yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:28:03

I'm not locked into something and people just don't get that. And that goes for a lot of careers, that goes for a lot of jobs. People get get stuck in. They just feel like this is where I have to be because I can't do anything.

Speaker 1: 2:28:14

that or comfort, yeah, and comfort it's comfortable, you get comfortable, and there's nothing wrong with it. No, not at all. If that's your thing, do it. Yeah, can't bitch about it though.

Speaker 3: 2:28:22

No, exactly can't bitch about it, can't but but you know and get out of that. So I do wish there was something more, and that was another reason why I started a life coaching business was hoping that maybe I have that opportunity to help some of these guys Even out of retirement. A lot of people just feel lost, for sure.

Speaker 1: 2:28:42

What do I do? Next chapter how do you start it? What do I do?

Speaker 3: 2:28:45

with my hands, I don't know. And that's even where a lot of suicides happen later down the road, after they lose their career because they literally have nothing else nothing else. They just sit there and stew and like and no, you'll see them. They go to the department and they just hang out. They're retired right back at the department in the little cafe downstairs. That's all they know, that's all they do. What happened? And I'll ask him like what happened? And I'll ask him like what are you doing? Oh, hanging out All right.

Speaker 3: 2:29:16

Not going to work, not going to work. Let's. Let's change that, let's change the rhetoric, let's get the body moving.

Speaker 1: 2:29:21

Let's get your mind working. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so have you. Have you been able to help a lot since going out and now starting your life coaching?

Speaker 3: 2:29:31

I mean, have you, have you been able to have an impact on some of these guys? I had someone, I was there. Have you been able to have an impact on some of these guys? I had some when I was there. It's actually pretty difficult. Really it's pretty difficult, because a lot of them, just when you get out of that, I think I might be able to do it more outside of my own department. Okay, because I think, to some degree, like even there, like people feel almost like you've betrayed them because you left. You left the culture For sure.

Speaker 1: 2:29:53

Isn't that weird what you could be in the military. In the marine corps, you could be the most stellar squared away marine, the second you decide that you're done. You're automatically labeled. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:30:04

Automatically labeled, yeah, no I've got like two medals of valor, I've got life-saving awards, I've got I mean just I could show you the medals yeah, all the stuff that I did Turned your back on us, you quit, yeah, like, oh well, I guess you're not one of us. Now, what happened to brotherhood? Like, why, what are you talking about? Like I still love you dudes, I still want you, I want to well be.

Speaker 3: 2:30:38

So I do think dudes experience that to some degree because and and and I think that's another part of that loneliness, right, like what you thought was, like something you know so tight, like you're there, and the moment you're not there, you're out, and and so now, who do you have? Nobody, you don't. You don't have the world because they hate what you're doing, yeah, and you don't have them because you're not them anymore.

Speaker 1: 2:30:48

You know you got yourself you got yourself and if you don't have something and a bottle, yeah and a bottle. And that just spirals. Yeah, the bottle's easy to get. I don't understand that mindset in you know, law enforcement, military communities, that brotherhood, brotherhood, brotherhood, rah, rah, rah. The second you're done. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:31:09

Now you're not the enemy, but it's just like, yeah, like why. Yeah, now you're not at the enemy, but it's just like, like why I'm not? Now I'm a turd because I got out, started a company, started a family, started a new life, new chapter. Now I'm the. Now I don't know if it's a jealousy thing, an envy thing.

Speaker 1: 2:31:25

I know I've run into that quite a bit getting out, making it, doing my own thing, surviving. You know, oh, it must be nice, must be nice. It's not. I mean it is, but you have no idea the struggles. Let's count in pennies and keep lights on. At some point I go back to afghan, pay my debt off, just so we can make it work. Yeah, you know, and it's, yeah, it's nice now. But I made that leap and it's, I think a lot of it is. Those guys feel trapped and they're. And then they see somebody actually doing it and making it and starting other companies and remarried, starting a new family, happy, and they, they're stuck in that bubble and they're just looking out like man, this motherfucker I think a lot of it comes down to that it does.

Speaker 3: 2:32:09

I think. I think I think you're right there. Um, it really is a. You know so many that I talked to you were just like I. I that was one of the things they said repeatedly was like I don't even know, I don't even know what that loud, I don't even understand. I don't know what, you, why, what are you talking? You know it's no different than you can see it in anything. Uh, you know people trying to leave dope right drug. You know, yeah, there are drugs. They want to get out. They want to stop using the first thing they do when they get out, they go to rehab to get out. Who's going to be there to greet them? It's the people that want them to come right back to where they were at and they'll give them all the free dope and fall right back on it and once they're back in it, okay, pay me.

Speaker 3: 2:32:53

So it's just, every, everything, every group, culture, um, and to some degree even families, do it to one another for sure, like literal blood families, for sure. Why are you moving? Oh, you're just. And now you're the outsider, right like you. You moved, oh, you're making money, you're you're better than us now yeah, yeah, you're better than us now.

Speaker 3: 2:33:12

Yeah, yeah, you're better than us. Okay, yeah, I got you. People are. That also comes down to fear, like I can't or I don't know how, or I'm too afraid, but if you're doing it now, I'm threatened by it. Yep, why, like? Why don't you learn from it? Why don't you come? By and we talk about it.

Speaker 1: 2:33:35

Maybe we talk about like you doing the same thing if you want. If you don't, let me help you.

Speaker 3: 2:33:37

Yeah, let me help you, let me, let's talk through it. What does it look like for you? What are the possible? Just have a conversation about it it's human nature, but it's.

Speaker 1: 2:33:45

But it's that mindset that keeps you in that shitty job, keeps you not starting a new identity in a new life. It's, it's that mindset where you're just stuck and it's the envy, it's the hate, it's the jealousy, it's the fear, because you starting something new is scary, especially you know you got 20 years in. You're right there, ready to retire within 10 years maybe, whatever you know. I mean you got it now but a full pension, whatever it comes out to same thing with the military, guaranteed paycheck, all medical, dental, your whole family's covered, all it. You're lit, it's cush, but you're like I'm gonna give all this up for what? For the unknown. It is scary. And then I think, when you see the guy doing it and you're just like damn, I'm too scared to do it yeah, and that's what I felt it.

Speaker 3: 2:34:31

There was a time where I felt it that's part of it.

Speaker 3: 2:34:34

It's part of the growth yeah, I was like, oh my god, yeah, you know, my wife's like, hey, what do you think about this? And once I got, I knew early on. But then once I'm there and I'm comfortable, and you know, I know everything around me, I know what I'm doing, I'm, I'm moving up here, know, and I've got a lot of clout here, and you know I'm the big cheese, you know. And then that conversation we're like oh, I don't know, I don't know I might have changed my mind, you know. But it's that fear of like I don't know.

Speaker 3: 2:35:09

The unknown, yeah, what do I do?

Speaker 1: 2:35:11

It's the unknown yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:35:12

How do I do? It's the unknown. Yeah, how do I do it? Where do I start? You know?

Speaker 3: 2:35:16

Um, so it took, you know, I really just had to do a lot of reading, had to, had to just step outside of myself a little bit and outside of my comfort zone, which I I was, I was cool with, I'm cool with doing that, and I always tried to stay inundated within the community. I taught fitness classes on the side, um, I I stayed involved in the community in other areas because I knew that I didn't want to be that, that cynical person, and so I think that helped me push through that fear a little bit, to know, like, this isn't, this isn't who I, it's not my identity. For one, I am john mcdaniel and I can do a lot more than this. I can do whatever.

Speaker 3: 2:36:01

Yeah, it's just I've gotta, I've gotta feed that mindset and I've got to get in bigger rooms. I gotta get around people who think that way how do I get rooms with people who think that way, that's a big one, you know, and that that is a big one because if you're in the room, if all of us in this room are thinking, well, well, this is what we do this is who we are.

Speaker 3: 2:36:22

You know this is exactly nothing's going to change. You know it's it's. You know it's the analogy of the cave. You know, if you're facing a wall, whatever you see on that wall is reality. And the moment someone turns you around, says, hey, there's a door there you can get. There's the light, there's a light. What so if there's no one there to do that, if you're not in those rooms with people who are going to do that, then that's where you stay yep.

Speaker 1: 2:36:46

So what do you got going on now? Uh, so, since getting out, I mean, obviously you started a new chapter of life, yeah, and where? So where is it at now?

Speaker 3: 2:36:57

uh, so I got out and immediately started doing I told you business so I was, uh, doing business coaching. Okay, I was the growth guy for a business coaching company. They had kind of spun off and they were really successful building one area and then they sold that so they were kind of almost a new startup and my wife also worked there. So I got in at growth and doing some of the coaching and traveling and speaking at conferences and things like that Grew the company about 600%. Really Grew the company about 600%. Really.

Speaker 3: 2:37:31

And then you know they well, the owner. He had multiple businesses and he was really focused on some of the other ones, so there just really wasn't a lot of energy being put into that business. And I could see it and so we had several conversations and I was like you know what? I think I'm going to do my own thing. So I stepped out of that and started the life coaching.

Speaker 3: 2:38:00

During that time we had already come up here and gone to the Mastermind the first event that Matt put on here not this past summer, the summer before and really liked it up here. We were always in colorado big hiker height, 14 000 foot peaks and fly fish, all the stuff. So we discussed coming up here made the move. Um, I was buying a gym, so I was in contract to purchase a gym. When we moved up with gym, it's called okay, okay. So I was in contract to purchase a gym. When we moved up here what gym? It's called Okay, okay. So I was in contract to buy that gym, smaller gym, 5,000 square foot. But I thought I can do some stuff here and there, you know, and then maybe grow this thing. Just a pretty cool investment. And I moved up here. I'm a week out from closing on this thing and I hadn't really had a lot of conversations pretty much almost none with the owner and I hadn't been up here, I hadn't even seen it. I sent a guy up here to go look at it. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:38:59

And film it and talk and so I was mainly dealing with the broker Realized that there was some information in that P&L. It was not correct.

Speaker 3: 2:39:10

It was left out, else they were. It was not correct, it was left out. And so, um, and this, this was from the owner. So he was very honest with me. Um, and so I was like, look, I gotta go back to the drawing board. So I was being the wife, sat down, we spent a weekend crunching numbers, doing stuff just like no, we're not, this is really changes, the future projections of this thing, the valuation. So I was like, called my attorney hey, draft a letter, we're done, we're out. So I got everything back from that. It's fine, no harm, no foul. But now I've got to switch gears a little bit. So I had the life coaching and we just started a fractional operations.

Speaker 3: 2:39:51

What's that? So companies, any business like if you're going to be a window washer, you start your business. It's probably chucking a truck out doing this thing. He has to hire Eventually. He gets enough business. Got to hire one or two or three Over time. That's fine. But at some point between usually around $500,000 to a million dollars, you begin to realize, to realize like you've got to figure out some systems and processes. Okay, you know as far as scaling.

Speaker 3: 2:40:17

Yeah, okay, how are you going to scale this thing out? You know, you know what are what the heck are kpis. You know how do I set goals. What does that even mean? You know, like, how? What software do I need? How do I find it? Any of this stuff? So, um, but they're usually busy doing the thing, still running their company and usually doing the thing. So it's very busy and they don't have the time or the know-how to do it. So fractional operations. You can't pay a full-time operations person to come in and do all that for you, or you don't really have the need for a full-time operator. But you need help. You need the stuff. Okay, so we can come in and actually help people set up what?

Speaker 3: 2:41:03

they need in their systems and processes and scale out. So we can do it on a one-time basis and set you up for the year. We can do check-ins now and then or we can come in in a fractional role like 10 hours a week.

Speaker 1: 2:41:14

What's this?

Speaker 3: 2:41:14

business called Forged Strategic Ops. Got it Nice, just kicked that off. So that's the second business. And then I'm also a worship pastor. Good for you. Yeah, started that. I used to do that a long time ago. It's always been a passion of mine. What church that? Uh, I used to do that a long time ago. It's always been a passion of mine. What church, uh? Dry creek community church? I don't know that, it's out in hidden springs. Okay, so we actually meet in. I don't know if you've ever been out.

Speaker 1: 2:41:38

Oh yeah, spring restaurant out there uh, was it spring house right when you pull in a little spring house and it's got rooted the coffee shop yeah same owners um so you're talking small congregation out there?

Speaker 3: 2:41:52

yeah, yeah, yeah, cool, we got. I mean it's over, it's I don't know, between a hundred, a hundred and 150. Yeah People, so we meet in there and yeah we, we got invited out there and attending. I saw a need and kind of felt the prodding, you know, hey, you need to something, and so I stepped into that.

Speaker 2: 2:42:14

Uh well, I just volunteered and then they were like hey, we, we really like it like you to do this.

Speaker 3: 2:42:16

Here's what the role looks like. You know, can you do this? And I was like, yeah, let's do it good for you. So that was good and so doing that and, uh, yeah, I teach a few fitness classes, a couple fitness classes, uh, here and there, and just because I enjoy that, I love being in that atmosphere, people like getting pumped up and doing a little personal training. That also kind of coincides with my life coaching and stuff like that. So good for you, man. A lot of stuff.

Speaker 1: 2:42:41

It's a lot of moving parts, but tell it, I feel a lot of guys like us to get out. That's how you know, when you start those new chapters, it's a lot of moving parts. Yeah, some of them get lucky and they just fall into something and that's it. But, like for us, god we got. We've got 15 pokers in the fire right now trying to get rid of a couple, and you know, line things out. That's just life, though, I mean, and that's the excitement and that gets you out of your comfort zone and you feel that stress again which makes you feel alive again. You know, it's if not I mean for me at least personally like you start feeling stagnant. You know, I went stagnant for a few years and it's just so. You know you fall into it. You get comfortable. When I mean stagnant, comfortable, you're not growing, you're not changing, you're just riding that wave. And for me and I'm sure you're the same, it's just you can only ride it for so long.

Speaker 3: 2:43:27

You gotta look for the next one yeah, it doesn't work, and, and you know I get bored man, so I've got to have something keeping me busy, and if I don't, I could promise you what's going to happen I'm going to turn to the bottle, get in trouble, something else, you know. I mean it's just human nature, I think, to some degree, like I'm going to do something I'm not supposed to do, so keep me busy. Yeah, you know, and and my wife will say the same thing, Same. Keep him busy.

Speaker 1: 2:43:54

Save. That's yeah, you need something to go. Nice project yeah. She says it all the time. You're sitting around too much, you're going to get yourself in trouble. Go get, get on a project. Well, dude, I really appreciate it, you coming on and sharing some of your stories and just life as a law enforcement officer. I guess a question leaving or wrapping this up is if you had a message for any law enforcement officers that are looking to get out or recently out, what would be some encouragement for them?

Speaker 3: 2:44:25

Man, I would say step out of that comfort zone, get away from it. Like, get out. If you're looking to get out, set the fear aside. The best you can just explore before you get out, go, try something you know, look into, start a small business before you even get out. Start a small bit. I mean, you're already working your butt off anyway. You're picking up side jobs and all this other stuff you know. Get out, do something. Do build something for you and see what it's like. See if you even enjoy it, because you don't know until you do it. So if you're looking to get out, see what's out there, explore, ask the questions, go and talk to people, start something new.

Speaker 3: 2:45:06

Before I got out, I started a little t-shirt business. Why? Just to do it, just to see what it was like to actually physically fill out the paperwork. What do the taxes look like? How does this work? It was six. I didn't lose money on it. Yeah, you know I ended up closing that down because it was really just kind of an experiment, but I wanted to see, like, what is this like? It didn't cost me anything. I got all my money back.

Speaker 3: 2:45:28

So if you're that person, man, just get out there and try it, just try something. And if you're that person, man, just get out there and try it, just try something. And if you're the guy that's recently out, you've retired or maybe something pushed you out don't feel isolated, man. There are plenty of people out here who are not cops or are cops, or military or not military. There's a whole world full of people out here who they want to know you and you want to know them, and they want to hear your story and they want to pull you into a new story. That's the most important.

Speaker 3: 2:46:03

Get in bigger rooms. Get in rooms with people who are looking forward. They're not looking in the mirror, at the reflection back themselves. They're not looking in the rear view mirror. They're looking forward. They're looking ahead and they're looking for something else. Get in bigger rooms where people talk about bigger things, not just the war stories, not just the stuff that they did once upon a time. What about the things they're going to do? What about the things you're going to do?

Speaker 3: 2:46:34

Find hobbies and talk to somebody. I'm a life coach. You want to talk to me. You can talk to me. Forge Phoenix, that's my company.

Speaker 3: 2:46:43

But talk to anybody. Talk to somebody about those things that you've kept bottled in. Have a conversation, cry, release it, get through it, work through it, work through it. Whatever you need to do to get yourself from point a to point b and so on and so forth, continue moving, because the moment you just set and stew in that loneliness or that depression, or or even just even if you're not depressed or lonely, but that spot where you have nothing else to look forward to, that's a dangerous place to be, and so I would say, get out.

Speaker 3: 2:47:20

That's when you better get out and go do something better, go talk to somebody and, uh, I have no doubt, like they're watching this and they're hearing this. It's gotta be a start. You're doing something cool here and I appreciate you having me on the show. I think. I think this is great and I think this is great message to get out to people. Like, if you're listening to this, there's a reason people don't listen to podcasts for no reason. They don't, you know, they don't listen to generally, from what I've experienced is they're they're starting to seek something. They want to hear what people have to say. So if you're hearing this, there's something, there's a bug, there's something. There's a bug, there's something that's rolling around in your mind, so roll with it, and, and, and I have no doubt.

Speaker 1: 2:48:02

Like you're gonna find somebody. If you need some help with that, holler, give a shout. I got one last question. Yeah, how important has faith been through this journey transitioning out to now, and uh, it's, it's been really important, very important, for me personally.

Speaker 3: 2:48:15

Um, there's a whole, a whole separate story about faith. That that you know, starting with childhood, because my parents weren't, uh, religious but I had to sneak out to go to church and get beatings for that, and so there's a separate story to that. But faith has played a pivotal role through my entire life, and until you experience it, until you pay attention to it and want to pay attention to it, you won't recognize it. And so I think, for me personally, I wouldn't be the person I am, I wouldn't be where I am, I wouldn't be who I am, if it wasn't for God, if it wasn't for my faith in the Lord and the journey.

Speaker 3: 2:49:00

And there's so many people that come around. They're there, you know, they know the Lord, they're there and they're ready to listen, they're ready to you. Want to cry on their shoulder? You can cry on their shoulder. You want to go out and shoot some guns and cry on their shoulder? You can do that too. You know you do whatever you want, but faith is um man, it is is pivotal for me and my journey good and I, and, and it's going to continue to be awesome man, important.

Speaker 1: 2:49:28

thank you. I really appreciate coming on sharing these, this advice stories time, and it's been really cool to get to know you. I'm sure we'll be seeing more, more of Thank you. I really appreciate coming on and sharing this advice stories time. It's been really cool to get to know you. I'm sure we'll be seeing you more at more of these events. Absolutely, we've got to grab some lunch and just shoot the shit off of this. I'd definitely like to get to know you more. This was fun. It's fun man. I really appreciate it. Thank you, appreciate you. Thanks, dude, thanks man.