#58 - "Shot In The Face" The Call Every LEO Wife Fears w/Amanda Webb

What do you do when the nightmare becomes real?
Amanda’s husband, TJ, a U.S. Marshal, was shot in the face during a takedown and in an instant, her life shattered. What followed was a brutal journey of trauma, isolation, and survival… not just for TJ, but for Amanda too.

From navigating hospitals alone due to COVID, to becoming his full-time caregiver, raising their child, and confronting the raw truth about the mental health crisis destroying law enforcement families — Amanda holds nothing back.

As both a clinical social worker and a police wife, she exposes what really happens when the uniform comes home — and how surviving this shooting completely transformed their marriage and their priorities.

This episode isn’t just powerful… it’s necessary.

To support TJ and his book: CLICK HERE!!!

Chapters

• 0:00 Meeting a Law Enforcement Officer
• 5:20 Marriage to the Badge
• 9:45 The Day Everything Changed
• 24:12 Hospital Struggles During COVID
• 35:34 Recovery and Caregiving Challenges
• 44:12 Mental Health in Law Enforcement
• 54:35 Finding Support and Creating Change
• 1:16:30 Life After the Shooting
• 1:22:40 Final Reflections on Law Enforcement Marriage

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:09

okay, amanda hi, thank you for joining me thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 0:14

I wanted to have this conversation with you because I don't think people get to hear enough from a law enforcement officer's wife, and especially one where your husband was shot in the line of duty. So I kind of want to just get the behind the scenes because I feel this day and age we all see how cops are treated and how politically it's gone pretty crazy over the last several years and you had a long run with your husband in the law enforcement world in the law enforcement world. So I thought it would just be kind of cool to get your side and your opinion on what it's like living and seeing from a different view, not just the law enforcement officer's point of view, but from a wife that has been in the trenches with her husband from the beginning. I guess Huh. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 0:59

All right, let's jump into it. So where are you from?

Speaker 2: 1:04

I'm a military kid.

Speaker 1: 1:04

You're a military brat, huh.

Speaker 2: 1:06

Yep, so all over.

Speaker 1: 1:07

I like to say what branch were your parents in?

Speaker 2: 1:09

Air Force.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Air Force.

Speaker 2: 1:10

So I was actually born on Dover Air Force Base when it had a functioning hospital. Okay, it doesn't anymore. And then we went to New Jersey, england, california. I say I grew up in Michigan, though Got it. And then ended up back in Delaware going to school.

Speaker 1: 1:26

Do you like being a military brat?

Speaker 2: 1:28

I don't know any different. Okay, yeah, I think there's benefits to it. There's downsides to it.

Speaker 1: 1:35

For sure.

Speaker 2: 1:35

You know you don't have those lifelong. You know elementary school friends.

Speaker 1: 1:40

Who does?

Speaker 2: 1:42

He does. He grew up in the same two miles his whole life, so. But it also taught me a lot of resiliency. You know what I mean. A lot of independence. Probably some people would say to to independent at times, but you know, I know I don't know anything else.

Speaker 1: 2:01

That's good, but I love it. Yeah, how did you meet your husband?

Speaker 2: 2:06

Funny story. So in Delaware, while I was getting I was getting my master's at the time and I worked at a domestic violence shelter. Oh, okay.

Speaker 2: 2:16

And so they had to the police had to bring the families to the shelter Happened to be in the town that he worked in, so we had mutual friends that we would kind of see from time to time and be, like you know, knew of each other, but he was dating somebody, I was dating somebody, and never, we never met up, um, and then we started running into each other, a lot like just randomly, a lot like at work so he was already a cop.

Speaker 2: 2:43

He was already a cop he's bringing people a cop when we met.

Speaker 1: 2:45

He was bringing people to the domestic shelter where you were working. Were you volunteering for these after you got eyes on? Were you like I'll take this one? No, no, it was totally random.

Speaker 2: 2:56

Yeah, and then, you know, we met through friends, friends who are also police officers Just kind of met through friends and then just it kept being reinforced by seeing each other at work. So he liked to arrest my people sometimes.

Speaker 1: 3:12

Yeah, you know, yeah so how did he ask you out?

Speaker 2: 3:16

at a bar at a bar yeah, really dive bar too. It's one of those like really local, local dive bars did you guys meet there or was it just coincidence?

Speaker 1: 3:27

Like did he ask you to go there and then ask you out?

Speaker 2: 3:29

No, we were there with a bunch of friends, Like we were in our young, you know, mid to young 20s, at the time where you would just go out on Tuesday nights. You know when you could handle that kind of stuff Can't now.

Speaker 1: 3:38

Were you hungover for three days.

Speaker 2: 3:39

Yeah, and he was like oh, I want your number. And I was like no, First time I turned him down why?

Speaker 1: 3:48

Because he was a cop.

Speaker 2: 3:50

No, because he was still seeing somebody a little bit. Okay, all right, all right, valid. And I was like that's not my jam. I was like let me know, when you're single, fully single. He's like yeah. After that we then made some changes and then he asked me out a second time and then I was like okay, yeah, we can go out.

Speaker 1: 4:11

That was it. Huh, that was it. How long did you guys date for?

Speaker 2: 4:15

We started dating October 2008. And then we got engaged 2009 and married 2011. No, we got engaged in 2010 and married in 2011. I'm really bad with dates you're okay.

Speaker 1: 4:30

I'm the opposite that's a good thing, though I'm the opposite.

Speaker 2: 4:33

He remembers birthdays and anniversaries. I'm like I don't know what day is it.

Speaker 1: 4:37

I'm very fortunate because, even though my wife has an elephant mind and doesn't forget shit, we forget our anniversaries and stuff all the time. She's like I think we had an anniversary last week and I'm like, yeah, so it's nice when you don't have the one that remembers everything, but she does. I just it is what it is, thank god. So you got introduced into the law enforcement community pretty early on. You said you were in your early 20s when you guys met yep 25, 26 how was that?

Speaker 2: 5:05

I mean, you really don't realize what you're getting yourself into no and yeah, I've never dated anybody that was in the military or law enforcement, so it was all new to me. Yeah, I always say I think one of the secrets to a successful relationship is shift work okay for me at least, because I am like that independent person.

Speaker 2: 5:28

So you know, there's some nights I'm like I'm gonna have cereal and go to bed at eight o'clock because I can. And you know, some people don't have that mindset, but I think that's something that works for us.

Speaker 1: 5:37

Yeah yeah, yeah, I guess I mean especially being married or dating a law enforcement officer. Their, they're shit. I mean, they're all over the place. So you kind of have to feel create your own I don't want to say separate life, and I guess this is why we're having this conversation. I mean, what's it like you're? You're starting to date somebody guys are in the honeymoon stage, then he's gone all night or he's gone all day. Obviously, everybody's spouses are dealing with that, but it's a completely different type of schedule.

Speaker 2: 6:07

I mean there was, yeah, I mean, you're used to dating somebody that you could be like, hey, this Saturday, let's, let's go out, and it's like, oh no, I work. Or you know, you wouldn't see him for a week because they're on night work, and you I worked Monday through Friday, eight to five, and he worked night work, and so I'd be like, okay, I'll see you next week, I guess really, how long did that last?

Speaker 2: 6:28

um till 20 2020 really I mean when you live together it's definitely different. But you know there was especially on night work, um, you know he would come when he was on canine, he was on permanent nights, so he would get home at four o'clock in the morning um, come in, go to bed and then I would get up and get reese ready for school, get ready for work, and then we'd be out the door and then you know he would go in at five, seven, I don't know, somewhere in the in the evening and so you just like ships passing in the night, like roommate that you never saw that didn't take a toll on your guys's marriage um, I would not until we had reese really yeah, um, like I said, I was super independent.

Speaker 2: 7:08

I'm just an independent person and kind of like okay, we'll see you next week. Yeah, um, but once I think life started happening, when you have kids and you have more responsibilities and more needs, that's when I'd say it got hard, okay um and it was needed him more yeah, I needed him more.

Speaker 2: 7:25

I would say there was, you know, a couple nights. In the middle of the night I'd be calling like he's at work, and I'd be like I just need you to come home, like it's a rough night, I need you to come home. And he'd be like, uh, roger, that let me see what I can do. And sometimes he couldn't, sometimes he couldn't, and that's hard, you know, like if there's not enough guys on shift, he couldn't leave. Yeah, um, and just working. You know that can be tough sometimes and I can see where it causes resentment.

Speaker 1: 7:53

Yeah, yeah did you see that a lot? I mean, were you close with a lot of like cop wives? Was it a a close community or were you kind of just on your own?

Speaker 2: 8:01

so I don't know how to say this without being offensive this is a wild chaos show.

Speaker 1: 8:06

You can offend whoever you. Nobody listens.

Speaker 2: 8:08

I feel like there's and that you know there's there's different. You know cops marry a million. There's a million different personalities out there. There's some folks that are like I want to say miss, miss police wife okay we're like that's also your identity for sure, um, miss, you know they like have you know their badge id?

Speaker 2: 8:26

so tj's was 5107. So people would be like I'm miss 5107 and I'm like that's not not me, like that's that's who, that's what he does, that's not who he is, that's what. That's part of our life, but it's not our life. And so I had a tendency to gravitate, I think, towards more, more like-minded people. Sure, um and so, while you know it is, it was a big part of our life and it impacted our life in a lot of ways. It wasn't our entire life. Um, and so, like the friends that I had that were police wives, um, they got it, they knew it, but I would say they were. They probably thought more like I did than than other, than maybe some other folks and the friends that some of my I would say what some of my best friends are police wives.

Speaker 1: 9:20

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 9:20

And you know, it's kind of like one of my best friends is is the, the wife of a task force officer that went through the shooting and, um, you know, we we have a lot to relate to each other.

Speaker 2: 9:33

He's still working, but so your best friend's husband was there the night that tj got shot he was the one that was on a separate assignment oh, okay, okay but those ladies I can, I know I can call them anytime, like the like, I'll call you any day and you can call me any day and it that definitely has brought us all closer together. But I would say, like my friends that are also law enforcement spouses had a tendency to we would plan things together. You know, like on the weekends that they're on shift, be like, hey, you want to take because you had to get out of the house.

Speaker 2: 10:07

Sometimes, if they're working night work with a toddler doesn't always when they're trying to sleep in the middle of the day and your kids running around knocking everything over you gotta be like um so we would do a lot of stuff together, like we would go to the you know pumpkin patches on the weekends or go to their house if their husband was working and you know mine was sleeping. So interesting.

Speaker 1: 10:28

So you guys would just bounce and shift houses.

Speaker 2: 10:31

Let husband sleep essentially I mean, yeah, I'd be like, hey, we gotta get out of the house today. Where you want to go, what do you want to do?

Speaker 1: 10:37

yeah, do you think separating, like we call them, dependopotamuses or a dependent dependosaurus in the military, the pentapod of misses or a dependent dependence, or us in the military, the ones that are? My husband's a gunny like one of those you know, like do you think that helps separating it? Like you weren't referring to your husband as his badge number. He's just yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:58

Your husband, to you I mean. But then you see the ones that are their whole life becomes being a cop wife. Do you think it's harder for them to go through a career than it is being able to separate like, OK, when he's home, he's home.

Speaker 2: 11:14

And when he's at work, he's at work, I don't know. I think so. I mean, I think some of the, I think it's. I feel like some people get really wrapped up in it, for sure, you know what I mean. Like they have to know what's going on. They have to know, like, um, I feel like some people just get really wrapped up in it. Like I've had friends that have told me like they haven't been able to sleep at night. Every night their husband goes to work because they're so scared. And I'm like, well, I get that, but how are you going to survive? Yeah, like you need to figure out how to survive too.

Speaker 1: 11:39

It doesn't last forever.

Speaker 2: 11:40

No, you can't be terrified at every call like you have to trust that, that they have the training, that they have the support. Um, I would say, like I always felt so safe when he had canine because I knew that dog was going to save his life, like that dog was going to fight when he was on sounds silly now, but when he was on the marshall's task force I was like, oh, he's good. I was like, yeah, he's, he's getting the the worst, the worst, but he's also with the best of the best. So like that always gave me comfort. I didn't like when he was on patrol, I didn't like it. The shift work wasn't as hard as a family, but it's also the unknown of what he's responding to every day, which was hard.

Speaker 1: 12:22

I think for some of the wives it's also the unknown of what he's responding to every day, which was hard, I think, for some of the wives. How did you keep it? I don't want to say keep it together, but how did it work? Because there's a lot of cops.

Speaker 1: 12:35

I mean, I feel like the divorce rate in military and law enforcement and everything is so high. What was the secret to keeping your guys' marriage and I know it's not every marriage is perfect you guys have, like anybody else, have gone through your highs and lows. But what? What made it work for you guys knowing that your husband's out there every day, shifts or you're crossing paths in the middle of the night, like what made it work?

Speaker 2: 13:00

I think what made it work for us is that when he was home, he was home. Okay.

Speaker 2: 13:07

And he helped. Do I still have to remind him to do the dishwasher? Yeah, for sure. But there's different things, that you can be present and not just be home. So he really did a lot of that. Be home, right. So he, he really did a lot of that.

Speaker 2: 13:25

Um, we worked hard to make sure, like when he was home on the weekend, that we would take time for each other and not just be like roommates at that point, um. But I also think one thing for me is that you have to create I don't want to say your own life, but you also have to create your support system for when he's not there, cause it's not like a nine to five job where he's coming home at night and then he's going to, you know, cook dinner with you and hang out. It's there at work all night. So you know, you have to have friendships outside of your relationship. You have to have that support system outside of your relationship. Um, it is helpful to have, like good friends, um, that are, I think, involved in the job, because they get it like when you're having a rough day, like you can talk to them and understand it, not just like god.

Speaker 2: 14:11

Why does he have to go to work every weekend, like well, because that's his job, like we don't get to pick that what's a rough day, I mean when you're just stressed out and overwhelmed and you know especially like as a mom with young kids, like you don't get to sit and relax you know what I mean. So you're constantly. You know you work all day. Come home you're dealing with the kids all night, whether they're having a good day, bad day, running them to sports, helping them with school, cooking dinner, making sure everything is done and the mental load of that for sure is significant right and when you don't have a spouse thing women are.

Speaker 1: 14:46

That's why I just I women don't get enough credit. That's this whole like oh, everybody is equal, no, we are not equal to women and women are not equal to us, because there's no damn way a dude is prepping dinner kids, the sports shoppy cleaning the house. That is special, mean you just?

Speaker 2: 15:05

women are built so different and the mental load of that can be a lot, especially if you don't have a spouse that's necessarily present. Okay, you know, if they're checked out because of their job, that's tough. And then when they come home and they're checked out because of their job, then now you're worried about that too. Yeah. Because we worry about it all.

Speaker 1: 15:25

Did he have a problem at all in the early days or any point bringing work home?

Speaker 2: 15:31

No, he. This is something that definitely shifted over the years, but I would say in the beginning he didn't, we didn't really talk about it a lot, and so my background is I'm a clinical social worker, so my background is I'm a clinical social worker. Okay, so at the time early in our career, after I graduated with my master's, I was doing outpatient therapy with trauma. So it's kind of like so you know, we're going to talk about this, right, I know that things are going on and sometimes he would, sometimes he wouldn't, but I would say probably that helped me know when to talk and when not to talk and allowing him the space to talk. Now and over the course of the years, as we got older and deeper in our marriage, he definitely talked a lot more. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:19

We talked a lot more about it. Do you think that helped more? That helped more, for I'm talking pre-shooting do you think it helped him with relieving stress or anxiety? Things like that was. Is the communicating more about his work, or or did you see a difference in how he was coming home when he was able to communicate it?

Speaker 2: 16:39

um, I think it. I think it did help him, but more than not, it helped me. Okay, it helped me understand today, like not to take it personal, right, like he's not in a bad mood because of something that happened at home. He's in a bad mood because he just saw a kid die, he just saw five overdoses and in a 12-hour shift he just saw. You know what I mean. So it helped reframe it to to make it make sense, right, and I think so many I don't want to say guys, cause there's lots of girls too, but I don't think that I feel like so often first responders don't want to share that because they don't want to burden their spouse or their significant other with what they saw. But really, when you're not sharing it, you're, you're not sharing the context of what's going on.

Speaker 1: 17:24

You're just coming home, an asshole.

Speaker 2: 17:25

Yeah, just coming home, an asshole and starting a fight and you don't know why, and your spouse doesn't know why either and you're like you're mad at me. Why are you mad at me? And then it becomes personal, it has nothing to do with you. Yeah, and it really helped me understand that it wasn't me being loud, it wasn't you know the crappy dinner that I made, it wasn't that laundry wasn't done, it was you just saw really a lot of bad stuff.

Speaker 1: 17:50

And now you have to come home and be dead, be husband and be okay that's, that's the craziest part, I think, if you, if I think about law enforcement officers, at everything that they do. The one thing I can't wrap my mind around is dealing with a whole entire shift and then coming home and putting a smile on your face, is sitting home at dinner after you just zipped somebody up in a body bag or had to deal with a dead child or whatever it was that, to me, I can't wrap my head around.

Speaker 2: 18:22

Yeah, and it's like multiple complex trauma, day in and day out, and you just have to be okay, like. How. Yeah, just disconnect and it's you can't. When you disconnect, you disconnect from all areas of your life.

Speaker 1: 18:39

Yeah, you can't just, oh, I'm just disconnected from work and I'm hey, honey, I'm home, like I'm just disconnected from work and I'm like, hey, honey, I'm home, like how's your day? You're just, you just disconnect. Do you see that a lot? Or did you see that a lot with other other wives? Where I mean is that, was that a common talk between the wives and when their husbands were going through what they were going through?

Speaker 2: 18:57

Yeah, I mean you would see that and then you'd be about like drinking. You know, like it. It gets played off as, like I'm going out with my buddies at the bar and then it turns into a, a terrible night, right like a fight starts. Drinking becomes excessive. Like you.

Speaker 2: 19:14

You see it in other ways okay yeah, and I think you see, um, one thing that I don't think is talked about enough in the in the first responder world is substance use, but there's also lots of other things that go on that aren't talked about, right like adultery, okay, and that's just another way of disconnecting not feeling with not dealing or feeling with everything that you're going through. Gambling really different types of addictions, not just drugs and alcohol, but sex. There's a lot of different addictions in in the community that people don't talk about do you feel that's just a cope?

Speaker 1: 19:51

I don't want to say coping an escape an escape. They just they have to find a path, and that's because they're not getting any help or able to talk or bring it up, because then they're flagged.

Speaker 2: 20:01

Yeah, yeah, 100%, yeah. And honestly, like we didn't know about resources until later on, like way later on in the recovery, like just recently, I learned about a whole treatment facility that's like an hour and a half, two hours away from where we live. That is just first responders.

Speaker 1: 20:22

Really.

Speaker 2: 20:22

Yeah, substance abuse, alcohol, any type of substance abuse in mental health, and it's first responder based. I knew nothing about it and I work as a mental health clinician.

Speaker 1: 20:31

Interesting.

Speaker 2: 20:32

Yeah, it's amazing, they do amazing things and I didn't know anything about it and I'm like, okay, so like folks knew about this and never told us about it, like hey, just in case if anything's going on, like here's Harbor Grace, our amazing facility, just for first responders.

Speaker 1: 20:53

And not like sending out mass emails like through the PD, like hey guys, here's some resources. Did you ever see anything? Being a law enforcement officer's wife? Did you ever see anything where they were offering help or hey, if you guys need to talk? Were there any programs that you saw while he was in?

Speaker 2: 21:11

no, no. And like scary wives you know wives talk and you know so-and-so's worried about so-and-so. You know what I mean like, oh, you know. And like, even with our friends, I'll text a friend and be like, hey, tj's having a rough day, can so-and-so reach out to him. And we do that with our very close group.

Speaker 2: 21:34

For sure to do that when you're like, actively on the job. You know what I mean, like the folks that we talk to and reach out to luck. I mean because they're part of the task force. We're all in different departments, um, but I think you know people are afraid to talk about it. 100 I know they're afraid to talk about what's the biggest fear?

Speaker 1: 22:00

you think like just they'll lose their job.

Speaker 2: 22:04

Number one that they'll get labeled okay, he's crazy, we're gonna take his gun, he can't be trusted, come back to shift to and then because of that, they'll get worked out. They'll be seen as weak, weak-minded. We had a great friend medically retired mental health was part of it and he's labeled. The things that people have said are terrible and it's not fair and it's like within your own community you're tearing each other down for asking for help, for saying this isn't okay, for being a human like you're not supposed to be exposed to that day in and day out mental. Your mind does not have the capacity to manage that regularly without help. You know what I mean. Multiple, complex trauma affects you and for people to tear you down within your own community, that's cannibalism. I mean that's terrible.

Speaker 1: 22:57

Especially when all you hear in preach is, oh, the thin blue line and the brotherhood.

Speaker 2: 23:02

Yeah, I would say that brotherhood is much more present within, like the lower ranks. Once you get to admin, I'd say it's out the door.

Speaker 1: 23:14

Oh, that's yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:15

It's not present.

Speaker 1: 23:16

Nope. No it's doggy dog world up there. I mean everyone's just trying to screw each other over for the next promotion.

Speaker 2: 23:23

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:24

And that's got to be frustrating, especially it's sad yeah. So you guys are grinding out your marriage. Mm-hmm. And he's toward the end of his career, and one night he leaves. Mm-hmm. He's supposed to be eating dinner, but his stubborn ass decided to go.

Speaker 2: 23:46

Yep always has to be in the one in the middle of it.

Speaker 1: 23:50

I feel you, it's my wife.

Speaker 2: 23:52

You had to be there, always in the shit, always had to be the one in the middle of it, right in the middle.

Speaker 1: 23:57

So you get a. There's one night he leaves. They're going to go and look over a car and a vehicle and somebody that was wanted. They're going to go and look over a car and a vehicle and somebody that was wanted and he was just going to go down 10 minutes down the road with a few of the guys and maybe snatch somebody up and then you don't get a text or a call that night from him. What was that like?

Speaker 2: 24:19

that was scary, yeah, um well. So stuff started coming in text messages and I would say part of it was like denial. I was like, oh, you know, he's with, he's with the best guys, like you know, stuff always happens but he's with the best guys, I know. Like like, yeah, it was a shooting, I'm sure there was a shooting, it's OK. Like you keep like minimizing, minimizing, minimizing. Until I got a call from a friend and she was like what do you need? And I was like I need you to tell me what's going on. It's what I need. I was like I don't know what's going on. Nobody's called me, nobody said anything. She's like you don't know. No, I don't know, I don't know anything. And this poor woman was eight months pregnant at the time. I and she was like okay, well, tj's been shot, he's at the hospital. I was like our local hospital. And she's like yeah, I was like okay, and that's all I knew.

Speaker 1: 25:10

Really.

Speaker 2: 25:11

Mm-hmm. And then I got a call pretty soon after that from my friend, melissa, whose husband was Academy with TJ, and she's like I'm coming to get you. I was like you live a half hour away, you're not coming to get me. So we ended up, um, my dad ended up taking me and that was really all I knew was he was shot in the face and I knew that he was shot other places, but I didn't know the extent of his injuries. I just knew.

Speaker 1: 25:35

That's all I knew were you freaking out at this point or were you pretty collected and like trying to process?

Speaker 2: 25:43

I was a I well, because we were at home, reese was home, um, so I was like I told reese, I said, but daddy got hurt at work, he's at the hospital, he's okay, which unfortunately I lied to him because I wasn't, I didn't really know yeah, um, and I said so I gotta go see him and and he's like okay. And, like I said, luckily we lived with my parents at the time and so my dad drove me to the hospital. I don't think I lost it until I remember being in the car and just saying, god, just give me this one chance, we'll get it right. Like, just don't take him. And then I got the call from Milford and oh my god.

Speaker 1: 26:29

Milford was the police department yeah, I.

Speaker 2: 26:31

I not usually one to lose it on people, but I lost my shit on them.

Speaker 1: 26:37

What is? What was that phone call? This is the first time the department actually calling you, and this was on the way to the hospital. So you've already gotten word. You've already gotten other people reaching out not the department letting you know that your husband shot and you still haven't got a phone call from the department letting you know that your husband has been you still haven't got a phone call from the department right letting you know that your husband's been involved in a shooting right yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:02

And when they finally call you what, what, what, what did they say? Do you remember?

Speaker 2: 27:06

I don't. I wish I could remember the words um, the person that called me it was um, he was a detective and um, I wouldn't say we were particularly close with him, not for any like no bad reasons. It was just he wasn't, like you know, on patrol, so he was never part of TJ's shift. And he was like hey, amanda, it's so-and-so. I just want to call you and I just I don't even know if he got words out before I was like fuck you. Like I had to find out through social media, through a friend. You couldn't even call me, like how dare you? And I remember I lost it pretty bad on him and he was like I know, I'm sorry, I'm at the hospital, I'll be here when you get here. And like he, he, the, the guy that, bless his heart, he was a champ, he just took it, took it on the chin?

Speaker 2: 28:00

He was like I get it. I know I'm sorry, I'm at the hospital, I'll meet you as soon as you get here. And he did, and he was great after that, but I unfortunately unleashed it on him yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:19

That's where I would say that's when I lost it, so you get to the hospital, yeah and it's covid during this time, yeah did you even consider that they weren't going to let you see your husband or didn't even cross my mind.

Speaker 2: 28:30

So we got to like our local hospital. They let me back the ER and other people had already arrived before I got there. A friend of ours who is a local. He worked in another, he was on a task force because he was undercover at the time. I just remember him being in the hospital room like in the ER, and then there's like all the old guys, like all the admin, at the end of the hall. When I came in um they brought me back and I saw him.

Speaker 1: 29:05

He was already knocked out band was that like seeing him for the first time? Scary yeah, how bad was it he was shaking.

Speaker 2: 29:12

at that point the adrenaline dump happened and so he was just shaking and I remember asking the nurse I was like is he having seizures, like what's going on? And they're like no, it's just. The adrenaline dump happened and so he was just shaking and I remember asking the nurse I was like is he having seizures, like what's going on? And they're like, no, it's just the adrenaline dump, he's okay. Um, the doctor, um the trauma surgeon, came in and talked to me and so that kind of helped. Um he, he explained that he was shot in the leg, um, but that that was state that they had gotten that stable, stable. But they had to fly him to christiana, the the it's a trump a level one trauma hospital, um to do all the surgeries that he needed, and that's really all I knew. I didn't know his hands were broken until the second hospital because he was covered, like he was. They had already had him on the board for the life flight by the time I got there so they had him prepped and everything ready to roll.

Speaker 1: 30:01

When you got to the hospital and got off on that floor and saw all those admin guys standing down at the other end, was it awkward or did it feel welcoming?

Speaker 2: 30:11

No, they were at the end. They were at the other end of the hall. They didn't come to me.

Speaker 3: 30:16

None of them, um one of well, end of the hall.

Speaker 2: 30:17

They didn't come to me, none of them. Um, one of well, one of the guys came to me. His name is josh, he's a friend of ours, he's he was on a different task force, but I remember thinking how did they get here? How did they get here before me? Like that was my thought. I was like, oh, there's a lot of people here and you didn't even know until and I I didn't. You're already on the way and I lived 10 minutes away. They all lived at least a half hour away.

Speaker 1: 30:42

Interesting. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:48

Yep, and then I remember Josh came and just gave me a big hug. That's when I broke down. But the nurses were great, they were amazing, they were amazing so they prep them, get them ready to go.

Speaker 1: 31:08

How long did you get to spend? How much time did you get to spend with them?

Speaker 2: 31:13

gosh, I don't even know. It didn't feel like long, I'm not really sure. I know it sounds crazy, but I don't remember a lot of it. I remember snippets.

Speaker 1: 31:20

Yeah, I'm sure I remember, like snippets here, here, here so they whisk him out of there and he gets life flighted to the next hospital. Did you go and meet him there?

Speaker 2: 31:38

Our local hospital. And then the police department drove me up in one of their cars with, and then they also drove TJ's parents up from their home in Milford up to the hospital.

Speaker 1: 31:47

What was that ride like?

Speaker 2: 31:48

It was quiet, like the two guys that were the two detectives that were driving me up. You could tell they didn't really know what to say. I was making phone calls. My friend met me at the hospital in Christiana. She was calling me checking in. We were just like. It was just like touching base with everybody on the way up.

Speaker 1: 32:11

By this point you're probably just overwhelmed by people reaching out and going crazy.

Speaker 2: 32:16

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:17

That hurt the situation or help. I mean, you're where you want. Is it just too much at this point like, leave me the fuck alone?

Speaker 2: 32:22

I'm trying to process my husband being shot well, I did text my sister and I said if anyone has questions, can you have them to ask you? I'll talk to you, but I don't want everyone calling me like I'm the one that like, like, if I'm like, if you touch me, I'm gonna cry. So just leave me alone for a little bit and I'll get through it, and then I'll cry by myself rightfully so.

Speaker 1: 32:49

Yeah, so you get to the next hospital. What was I mean? They told you he was stable. Are you still Critical?

Speaker 2: 33:00

and stable.

Speaker 1: 33:01

Okay, so you weren't out of the.

Speaker 2: 33:03

Right.

Speaker 1: 33:04

You're not in the clear yet. There's still a lot of concern. It's not? Hey, he got shot in the shoulder and he'll be up and running, no problem. I mean, they're life-flighting him, which is a big red flag. So I mean you get there. A big red flag.

Speaker 2: 33:20

So I mean you get there, yeah, same thing I mean are you just waiting to stand by? Did they let you come right in? So yes, so there, they let me come right in. They brought us up to he was in the ICU and I'll never forget it. We were standing there it was. I was on one side, his mom and dad were on the other side of the bed. The doctor came in and she was like, hmm, just went and grabbed tweezers and plucked the bullet right out of TJ's face, in front of me.

Speaker 2: 33:49

I was like, and I was like, ok, well, at least it's like, because you know, in my head I had that he was shot in the face. That's all I knew, right. And so when I got there, they're like, oh, look, it's just right here, it's OK. And so that, like I was, I was like, it's not, he was shot in the face and like half his jaw is missing, it's like it ricocheted up. So they explained that to me, they took that out. So I did have a little more context there. That's when I found out about his hands, because I was like standing next to the bed holding his hands his hand and his mom was on the other side holding his other hand, and the nurses were like oh, don't squeeze too hard, his hands are broken. And we're like oh my gosh. So it was like just constantly more broken bones and broken body parts.

Speaker 1: 34:37

As you like, you learn about it so just peeling layers back, and every time you're finding more and more damage yeah, yeah, so that, um, we couldn't stay in the icu too long.

Speaker 2: 34:46

I feel like maybe we were in there, I don't know, maybe 10 minutes, um, and then they brought us down to like a um, a, I think it was like a staff break room, maybe on like the other side of the hospital. It was COVID, so we couldn't really be in a lot of places and there was a lot of us it was me, me, my friend, tj's parents and then, like when a police officer gets injured, they just swarm to the hospital. That's where they want to be, they want to support each other, they want to be present and that's what happened. There was a lot of police officers there Admin from TJ's agency, admin from the local agency, the FOP, the Fraternal Lord Police folks were there. There's a lot of people there. Marshals were there.

Speaker 1: 35:40

Is that like a cool sight to see? Or you just want to be left alone and one time with your husband?

Speaker 2: 35:46

I just wanted I don't. I felt like people kept looking at me like, is she okay, what's going to happen, and I was just like I was in shock too. I was like I don't know what's going on. I wanted to be in the room with him and I couldn't be.

Speaker 1: 36:00

How long was it until you actually?

Speaker 2: 36:03

Well, that night so that was Thursday night we stayed in a hotel because we had to leave the hospital. His surgery was at two o'clock the next day so I could come and see him. We were able to be in the hospital during the surgery. So we were in the hospital. I don't remember if I saw him or not before the surgery. I think I may have saw him for a moment or no. I didn't. No, I didn't see him before the surgery. I saw him right after the surgery for like briefly they would only let us in for a minute and he was still intubated at that time and that was only for like 10 minutes, I think.

Speaker 1: 36:40

Was that pretty hard to see?

Speaker 2: 36:41

Yeah, yeah, it was, you know your big, tough husband that fixes everything is broken. Just, you know, on a ventilator it was really hard.

Speaker 1: 36:55

Especially during that time.

Speaker 2: 36:56

Yeah, yeah Not even knowing you just can't come and go. No, and, and those poor nurses, I probably call it every 15 minutes. It's okay, everything okay, everything okay. Yeah, he's okay, he's all right. This is what we're doing right now. This is what's going on now. This is what's next.

Speaker 1: 37:12

So they kept you updated, pretty well, yeah, I mean I had to call for the updates, but yeah, okay, yeah, they were, but I think they understood you updated pretty well.

Speaker 2: 37:16

Yeah, I mean I had to call for the updates, but yeah, okay, yeah, they were, but I think they understood. You know what I mean, like your husband's in the icu and you can't see him.

Speaker 1: 37:23

That's tough yeah, it was a pretty shitty time. I mean, there's people giving birth and yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:30

And like the, the president of the hot the hospital, she stood her ground, for she had a lot of pressure on her and she stood her ground. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:41

But not allowing you to come in.

Speaker 2: 37:43

Yeah, and I get it. I mean for me it was personal, for her it wasn't. She was following protocol. But yeah, we had a lot of people trying to pull strings for us. They were going to dress me up in a Marshall's vest and and five 11s and sneak me in.

Speaker 1: 38:00

Put some boots on you and a hat and walk you right in Like you own the place yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:04

We're just going to make her a Marshall for the day, and here you go.

Speaker 1: 38:07

Yeah, yeah, hey, at least they came on, they were they were thinking outside the box.

Speaker 2: 38:24

Luckily we, we didn't have to do that. Yeah, so it was about a week before you were actually able to see him again. That's how long was that torture? That was so hard. So we had um. We would facetime on other people's phones, um, because his phone was um in his car, which was in evidence for a while. Um, so he didn't get his phone until I don't know how many days later. Um. But so we would facetime on other people's phones, which was, you know, tough um. But that, yeah, that was it it was tough.

Speaker 1: 38:49

You get the call, then he gets to come home, or at least you get to see him right I got to go up the day.

Speaker 2: 38:55

It was the. I got to go up the day before he got released.

Speaker 1: 38:59

What was that like, seeing him after a week?

Speaker 2: 39:03

I was nervous.

Speaker 1: 39:04

Were you.

Speaker 2: 39:04

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:05

Why.

Speaker 2: 39:05

What are you walking into? Okay, you know what I mean. Like I could talk to him a little bit on the phone, but you know what? Are we going to? See what's going to happen, but it was great. Yeah, yeah, going to see what's going to happen, but it was great, yeah, yeah. I just wanted to crawl in bed with him and just lay there. I bet and I did for a little bit yeah, I'm sure the nurses were like awkward, but um, yeah, I just wanted to get as close to him as I could.

Speaker 1: 39:29

Yeah, so he gets to come home, starts physical therapy, which is not an easy thing to do, especially after taking one in the hip and all over everywhere else.

Speaker 2: 39:41

What was it like watching him have to go through that it was hard to watch him struggle it was a lot of pain and he's you know he's not one to ever say that he hurts or um, or you know it's just a little bit pain, that's fine, um, but you could see on his face on the days that was really bad yeah um, and he's, you know, doesn't take, won't take pain medication, well you know.

Speaker 2: 40:03

And so it's hard to see, it's hard to see him struggle, yeah, but it was great to see the victories and how proud he would be when he would, you know, meet those little, those little mini victories how important is it for, or how important did you feel it was for him to like see your support or to make such a big deal out of little wins?

Speaker 1: 40:21

I mean, was that something you knew that was important for him?

Speaker 2: 40:23

I don't think I did at the time. Um, I'm like an annoying I don't know. I think that's just part of who we are. You know what I mean. That's just like, oh, it's amazing. You know, like, um, I don't think at the time I knew how important it was. I do now and, looking back, like I wish there were, I would do a lot of things differently now because I was still trying to work and I was still trying to do different things. Um, but I think now, talking to, like, going to harbor of grace, talking to other law enforcement families that have been through traumatic events, like I now know how important it is to have that spousal support and what happens when you don't have it.

Speaker 1: 41:06

So there's no. There's no one reaching out like, hey, this is, this is like the next steps of your husband going through a shooting and these are things to expect, or these are how you should be supporting or backing him, like there's no so I had somebody calling me.

Speaker 2: 41:22

He didn't have somebody calling him. I had um victim support group like a big um. Well, it's through the state police. It's the um victim advocate okay um.

Speaker 2: 41:30

So we were listed as victims um in a crime and so we had the victim advocate calling us um every so often, so often I don't remember how often they checked in Um, but they would ask like, hey, do you need, do you need anything you want to do? Like, is there anything that we can help you with? And I'm like no, um, and that's that's a service through the state. Okay, yeah, I think they I don't remember I think initially they the victim advocate met with me initially in the hospital and I was like I don't, I don't even know what we need. You know what I mean. Like this just happened and at the time I didn't see myself as a victim of it. You know, I don't. You know I was like, you know, just happened as a result of his job, so, but it was offered, they did call every so often, um, eventually I was like you don't need to call me anymore.

Speaker 1: 42:19

I think I got it from here. Yeah, what was the hardest part of your husband being shot? Through the recovery, through the hospital, through the surgery? What was the hardest part for you?

Speaker 2: 42:33

Um, just making sure that my son was okay. Yeah, like, I was worried about two things. One, working in the trauma field I know what happens to folks that don't manage it. Well, okay, right, I was afraid of the fallout. You know, is he, is he gonna have ptsd? Is that gonna? Is he gonna be with the all the what ifs? Right? Is he gonna become an alcoholic? Now, are we gonna have, you know, the the fallout of ptsd, like um, so I would say the worry of the unknown okay, it was really hard, um, and then making sure my son was okay, just making sure that he understood that that dad was okay, he's okay.

Speaker 2: 43:16

Making sure my son was okay, just making sure that he understood that that dad was okay, he's okay. Making sure that he didn't also, you know, have anxiety from it.

Speaker 1: 43:25

Because he was seven at the time. And I mean, how does a seven-year-old process Process yeah. Any of this.

Speaker 2: 43:32

Yeah, like, how do you wrap your head around that? As a kid.

Speaker 1: 43:34

And now you are mom, your wife. You're dealing with a husband that's in full recovery. Now you're dealing with a son, Then you're trying to make sure he is trying to understand at the best of his ability. The process is dad being shot. I mean, you have a lot on your plate and you're still working at the time.

Speaker 2: 43:55

I worked from home, so work I'm a. I manage a team of case workers or case managers um that do field-based uh case management, so I work from home. Um, even pre-covid I worked from home um remotely, so, um, now we're all home, so so that's a shift overnight yeah, we go from you know half the week he's at work to home 24 7. What the?

Speaker 1: 44:24

yeah, I'm hungry, yeah, with hands that don't work.

Speaker 2: 44:29

And yeah, it was a big, it was a big shift for us. It was like overnight boom, our, our total day-to-day changed.

Speaker 1: 44:38

What was it like dealing with his wounds? He's got two hands that are fractured and bullet holes in them everywhere. Yeah, you want to talk about trauma bonding.

Speaker 2: 44:48

Yeah, so there's a reason I'm not a nurse. Okay.

Speaker 2: 44:51

Like I love helping people, but I help in different ways. I'm not the one that's like, ooh, look at that, that's so cool. Like the ways. I'm not the one that's like, oh, look at that, that's so cool. Like the wounds, I'm like, no, I don't do bodily fluids and so and as TJ knows, I'm not the like. I don't have the most gentlest hands, so I'm like trying so hard not to hurt him, trying to like learned a lot. Learned a lot about wounds and about taking care of them and wrapping and rewrapping and all those things that I had no idea about, but it definitely brought us a lot closer.

Speaker 1: 45:23

Yeah, oh, I would imagine having to. So you got to learn some field dressing. Yeah, real quick, real quick. What was it? I mean, what's that like? Is it like what you would think? I mean, he's talking about bone shrapnel coming out of his back. I mean, now are you rolling him over and having to change everything, or do you have in-home nurses? How did that?

Speaker 2: 45:44

work like. So a lot of his um, the one on your leg seemed to heal pretty well. Um, we just had, like surgery, scars on his leg. The ones that were the most was he had an external fixator on his hand what's the next?

Speaker 1: 45:57

is that the pins that stick out?

Speaker 2: 45:58

yeah, so he had like the two metal rods that came out with a connector. So you had, and we had to like clean the where the rods went in, around that and then wrapping. We had to rewrap the bandages regularly and then we just had these like patches to put over the wounds on his legs okay um, so had to change those pretty regularly.

Speaker 2: 46:19

That was different. And again, like I'm not the softest hand, so I was like stressed out, like okay, we're not going to hurt you, I'm going to go really soft and be really gentle, yeah. Good for you, that's why wives are the most incredible thing on the planet. It was not something you ever expected to do, yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:43

What was recovery like for him? Was it tough watching somebody going from peak performance and being some US Marshal operator and now he's bedridden?

Speaker 2: 46:56

That was frustrating for him. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:58

We had an amazing community. They were like tell us what? And I was like I don't know. I don't know what we need. And then I remember I was having a conversation with my friend melissa one day. I was like it just dawned on me one day. I was like how is he gonna get out of bed if I'm not there, like we just had a regular bed. Um, I was like I got to figure this out. Like how are we going to make sure he can get in and out of bed if I'm not there? Two days later, mattress showed up with the remote lift you up like the movable mattress. They just showed up, they just did it.

Speaker 2: 47:28

This one got it really and I was like, okay, I'm not, I'm not talking to anybody else because I don't want stuff to just keep showing up. And then we're like one day we're like I'll be, really we need to get. Um, we talked about getting like a bike for the house, just so he would have a stationary bike to use at home to keep his legs moving.

Speaker 2: 47:44

Bike showed up three days later really I was like, okay, we're not talking about any more stuff that we need. Um, but our community was amazing. Um, but his recovery became his new full-time job. He's not one to be able to sit still yeah, he doesn't do well with idle time.

Speaker 1: 48:00

No, idle time is trouble time.

Speaker 2: 48:03

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:04

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:04

So, and he's so like you know he wanted to do it himself. So he was like how am I going to figure out how to do this myself? You know he got special silverware so that he could feed himself, use his hands. You know he got special silverware so that he could feed himself, use his hands? Really, yeah, he wouldn't. The next challenge was his next job and he would shoo me away a lot of times Like I'm going to do this, I'm going to figure it out.

Speaker 1: 48:31

Was that frustrating for you?

Speaker 2: 48:33

Yeah, I was like, let me just do it, let me just fix it. And he's like, no, I'll do it. And sometimes he failed and that was hard to watch. Yeah, but he was like figure this out. Yeah, it's hard to sit by and just be like, okay, let me know when you need me yeah listen out for thuds you okay. Yeah, what was that?

Speaker 1: 48:57

yeah, we've broken a lot of plates, dropped a lot of glasses yeah, was that the hardest recovery you think for him was his hands I think the most painful recovery was his leg um, but the longest and hardest is is the hands. Yeah, yeah yeah, so you're learning everything all over again. Yeah, what did this? I mean, what toll did this take on you?

Speaker 2: 49:20

I didn't. At the time I was like you know, pedal to the metal, we're going to figure this out. And then I realized, like a year later the first year was just survival, like we're just, we're going to the next appointment, we're doing the next surgery, doing the next thing. And then I realized a year later I was kind of being crappy to people, and I didn't I not necessarily in my well, I don't want to say not necessarily my personal life, because there's definitely the safest people people closest to you are the safest, so you'd be crappy to them and you don't even really realize it.

Speaker 2: 49:54

Um, but I think I was being crappy at work, okay, and I was kind of like what is going on? I wasn't taking care of myself. I was so focused on tj um I was. I gained probably like 20 pounds in the year. Um, I wasn't like as dialed in on my uh fitness, I wasn't as dialed in my nutrition, like. And then one day I was like man, I am kind of being an asshole right now, like I'm not taking care of myself, I'm being really short-tempered. I was like I gotta, I gotta fix that, like that's not okay, um, and then I started and that's because I was like I can't be the priority right now, like I felt like everything had to be focused on TJ's recovery and that was on me, that wasn't anybody else.

Speaker 1: 50:44

Um, that's a sacrifice, uh, you know, and I'm sure he would have done the same thing for you A hundred percent, a hundred percent. It was a reverse, but it takes a toll.

Speaker 2: 50:51

Yeah, and it did.

Speaker 1: 50:58

Over a while. I mean probably lifting them and moving them and set. You know you can't go away for an hour or two to go work out, or I mean I'm sure you had zero alone time for quite a while because you just had to be there. I'm sure going to the grocery store was probably nerve-wracking, because he's laying in bed with bandages on him and, yeah, you don't know what's going to happen and his stubborn ass is going to try to get out of bed and fall or something. So, yeah, well, I I already know all this because my wife has to deal with all of this shit, with me not gonna get up, are you?

Speaker 2: 51:21

no, come back and lay on the floor like, hey, so I tried, I'm sorry, I'm trying, yeah, um, yeah, so, and then so, then that, um, I started making changes again. I was like, okay, I need to get back, get back to, um, you know, going back to like my regular exercises, taking care of myself again.

Speaker 1: 51:39

And this was like a year into.

Speaker 2: 51:41

Yeah, it was probably more like a year and a half, I think, before I like really recognized it. Okay, Um, and I was just like I'm just not happy with who I'm being right now. Um, so I had to make some. I had to like really look at myself and be like you're the one being the asshole, it's not anybody else. Like you need to figure it out. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:01

Um, so I think it took me a little while, but we got there. Um, yeah, it took me a little while. Um, just talking to friends and, and you know, being more open with TJ, like I need to go to the gym. I can't put this. I can't put this because for me, again, like fitness is my mental health, like that's how I manage stress, that's how I manage anxiety. I'm a better and nicer, happier person for sure, when I work out and I eat right.

Speaker 1: 52:29

I think everybody is yeah crazy. How that works, you know funny. You take care of your body and your mind feels better yeah, get rest, eat good food and exercise, and I feel amazing. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, damn good for you, though there's a lot of wives that don't stick around through that that phase well, I think.

Speaker 2: 52:45

I think a lot of it is that they just also don't know how to manage all the stress that comes with it, and sometimes it's easier to leave than to fight. But you know tj as stubborn, as he unfortunately married someone that's also very stubborn.

Speaker 1: 52:58

I don't want to be in your house. There's no budge either side, huh, and I'm like the only way to it is through it.

Speaker 2: 53:07

So I mean, and honestly, that never, never crossed my mind.

Speaker 1: 53:11

I mean, you've been a when I say cop wife involved in the law enforcement world for a long time. Where do you see a lot of these guys struggling?

Speaker 2: 53:25

I think a lot of it is. There isn't a separation between work life and home life. Okay, I feel like they get caught up in a lot of shift stuff. What I see is relationship problems, like not managing the stress well at work and it comes home and it gets presented in a different way, mm-hmm. And I think what I've seen is where, in terms of relationships that don't make it twofold, there's that mentality of hard and fast all the time and it's like hard and fast at work, hard and fast at home.

Speaker 2: 54:10

And it can't be and you can't be. No, and it's like you're going out drinking, hanging out with people doing things that you shouldn't be spouses. Get wrapped up into some of that hard and fast life too. Oh so, if your normal is going out with your shift after work to drink and your spouse comes along.

Speaker 2: 54:40

That now becomes their normal too okay or your significant other, not your spouse but significant other. I've seen a lot of that happen, um, interesting, and then also, just, I think, not being prepared for the life. It's one thing when you're single and I don't want to say single when you don't have kids Changes totally when you have kids, because where you just had to worry about yourself and it wasn't a big deal when, when your spouse wasn't home to help out with things because it's like whatever, you know what I would say, it shifts when you have kids and there has to be more education in talking about it before it happens, like. One thing that I know, like talking to other wives about, is we wish there was an FTO for wives. Fto FTO.

Speaker 2: 55:27

Like field training. Okay. Like this is what you're going to expect. Like training, the significant other of this is how life is going to be.

Speaker 1: 55:38

And there's none of that in the law enforcement community.

Speaker 2: 55:41

Not that I've seen. I don't know if other departments do it. I don't know if other people do it.

Speaker 1: 55:47

I've never thought of that how they should have FTOs for the spouses. Because you're married into the world. It's not like you. I don't care how two different lives you want to live. If you're living under the roof of a law enforcement officer, it is now part of your life too.

Speaker 2: 56:05

Yeah, I would love to see almost like a mentorship program, you know, like a wife or spouse of a superior officer, you know someone that's been in the life for a long time kind of take somebody under their wing and say these are the struggles that I've had, these are the struggles that we've had, this is how we've worked through it. So there's at least I don't want to say warning, but an understanding of going into it that you know you're're gonna have to do some work to have a successful marriage.

Speaker 2: 56:36

It's hard, it's a hard life, just like you know, um with military. You know they have like if, if your spouse is going to deploy for a year or longer, six months, three months. However, it is like there's a community there that talks about it and yeah, we have some wives, I think they used to call them.

Speaker 1: 56:52

I don't know if it's a gone. Yeah, we have a key wives. I think they used to call them. I don't know if that's a thing anymore, but you'd have a key wife Like your first sergeant.

Speaker 2: 56:58

Yeah, it's your, your family is now your family, you know.

Speaker 1: 57:00

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 57:01

We don't have that and I think we should. I think one thing that's super important is like you have to have friends. I don't want to say friends, support on the same shift that your husband's working.

Speaker 1: 57:15

Because Is that possible? I mean, can't the shifts rotate?

Speaker 2: 57:21

They rotate yearly, I would say oh, okay.

Speaker 2: 57:24

But I think it's important to have a go-to person on shift, like our husbands are both working, let's have support. Our husbands are both working, let's have like, let's have support. Or I know a lot of times it's you know a lot of young families and they don't have the support in the community to like, let's say, have a date night with their husband. So now, hey, this Saturday, when TJ's off, joe and his wife are going to have our kids so that we can go out and do something together and reconnect. Then, two weeks down the road, I'll take your kids and you guys go out and connect. I think that the police department has to recognize how important family life is to their officers mental well-being and they don't.

Speaker 1: 58:08

They don't talk about it.

Speaker 2: 58:09

I feel like they don't give a fuck. No, they don't. You know, like you know, your person's going and you can't, just as you can't, separate your life from your. Like you know, you can't separate work from home. You can't separate home from work either. When you're going home and having a really hard time, that's going to carry on into your work absolutely just the same. So I think that there has to be a little more understanding and a balance that that you have to holistically look at your.

Speaker 2: 58:34

Your officer is just not a workhorse, it's just not someone to come and do a job and go home. Yeah, there's a whole person there and we have to identify that. The healthier they are physically, emotionally, mentally, the better people there'll be and better officers there'll be.

Speaker 1: 58:51

Yeah, you have a cop. He's dealing with bullshit all day. Then he takes it home to his family. Then he's dealing with that bullshit because he's got the stresses of a nagging wife or kids that are just terrible, whatever the situation is. Then he takes that back to work and then it's just a cycle that these cops get involved in. And then, before you know it, they're making a stupid mistake or they're chasing a bottle or women, or whatever it is, to relieve their problems. But meanwhile everyone's like you're good brother, yeah you're good check.

Speaker 1: 59:21

Yeah, we're good.

Speaker 2: 59:22

No, you're not yeah, and how do you know they're good?

Speaker 1: 59:26

because they say they are. Yeah, meanwhile this guy's a drunk, beating his wife and everything else. That goes on and goes to work all day and asshole to everybody else Yep, and nobody cares.

Speaker 2: 59:40

I think there are some things I think we've. I'm praying, hoping and praying that we may see a pendulum shift when it comes to mental health. I would like to believe that. I know there's some apps that are being created that are a little more I don't want to say anonymous in terms of mental health, because you can't ever fully be anonymous legally, but it takes the administration out of you accessing mental health, which I think is huge. I think that administration has to recognize that they cannot be involved in that conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:00:16

Um, because guys will never, will never feel safe enough to be honest and open about it I feel law enforcement administration is almost a bigger enemy than getting in your car and going on patrol. Yeah, that I to me, and hearing the stories, I feel I'd be more scared of dealing with the admin that are in what is it internal affairs? Than going out on the street and dealing with my normal beat that I'd have to drive every day, like that's what would worry me. I feel a lot of guys would probably feel the same way, because you just breathe in the wrong direction, say one wrong word and you're hung out to dry. Yeah, then you put that on top of everything else. These guys are dealing with the knowing that you're going to work and if you make the slightest mistake your bosses are going to fry you. Yeah, then that stress dealing with domestic bullshit all day, going home to an unhappy family because of all that crap, and then it's just a vicious cycle that never ends. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01:16

How do we break that?

Speaker 2: 1:01:20

That's a good question. I think we have to be willing to. I think again. I think that we have to take the, we have to look at a person as a whole person, person, and just have the blanket understanding that first responders are exposed to chronic trauma every day. Every day.

Speaker 2: 1:01:40

It's a workplace hazard and we have to treat it as a workplace hazard. You know what I mean. Like x-ray techs, they get checked regularly, probably, right, you know, because of the exposure. Right, if you have chronic exposure to something, we have to see it as a workplace hazard and not an inherent problem of that person right. This is baseline normal Chronic exposure to trauma. That's baseline normal. We can't treat you like a leper, because now you're responding like a human to a trauma that you've experienced on a daily basis.

Speaker 1: 1:02:12

And they could be reacting to trauma that they faced two, three years yeah, comes up in a different way could be just catching up to them because they weren't ever able to process it, or they had to immediately go to another call and never gave what they just saw or the shooting they're involved. Whatever it was, they never were able to process that till. Maybe they get home Right and if they have a great support system, maybe that helps. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:02:38

How many, how many cops out there go home to the incredible wives that are going to be there and support them? I mean you hear, you hear the stories all day, every day Sure Trouble at home. I mean it's just, it just comes with nature of the beast of being a cop. I feel like yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:03:16

I feel like not only are we going to treat this as like a baseline workload, a base hazard, this is just part of the job. Um, I think we also have to talk about it with each other to say like, yeah, just that, would that really like? That call really hurt, that call really bothered me and it's going to take me a minute to to talk, talk through it and work through it and not, within the community, tear each other down because because of it. So I think it has to come bottom down, top up. I think admin has to start seeing it as just this part of the job and we're going to treat it like any type of exposure on a regular treatment, like I'm sorry, people may not like this, but I think regular mental health treatment should be part of a first responders day.

Speaker 2: 1:03:59

Yes, yes, Like every week. Guess what? You get a two hour block to go talk to your therapist. Yeah, is it going to cost money? Sure is, but you know how much you're paying out in lawsuits right now. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 1:04:14

How many lives is it going to save?

Speaker 2: 1:04:16

Yeah, I think it can't be a money thing. It has to be. This is what we have to do, yeah, and then, bottom up, we have to support each other in getting treatment and not say that it's a terrible thing Not see them as weak-minded, or that they just can't take it.

Speaker 1: 1:04:39

You're not supposed to be able to take it. No, body's not meant for that, the human psyche's not meant for that. I that was interesting and they kind of raised like a aha moment when they're dealing with trauma every day, every day, day. I mean if you're lucky you might get a couple days off. Yeah, not dealing with maybe a burglary here or there.

Speaker 2: 1:04:52

Great a domestic. If you're lucky, you might get a couple of days off. Yeah, not dealing with Maybe a burglary here or there.

Speaker 1: 1:04:54

Great A domestic violence. You're dealing with a guy that's beating his wife, drunk, a gangbanger, whatever it is. They're dealing with trauma on a day-to-day basis, but then they just go home. But I mean, if that was any other job field on the planet besides being in the military, there would be so many resources I feel available. Oh my God, you saw a dead child today. What helped me now? And there's a cop's like yeah, third kid this week. Yeah, where I mean how does it yeah?

Speaker 1: 1:05:27

like this is where this is where we need to audit and start all over. We need to. It's only getting worse. Yeah, it is. I feel I hear more cops killing themselves now than ever. It's. I feel like it's all over every time I open my social. Another cop here, and then there's female cops and it's like you can never expect a female cop. I mean, I know they're dealing with the same shit. I'm not saying they're not, but now it's like it's so, like three or four in the last month. It seems like like what is going on. There's like they had what changes do we have? And the fact that these pds or our government or the states aren't like we have a problem yeah do you think it comes back to all?

Speaker 1: 1:06:06

just they're they're scared of liability. Because if, if tj goes and talks to a psych and like man, I just had to see some shit last week really bothered me there goes his notes and there goes in his folder. Then when something goes down, oh he's got all of this history of having problems probably, I would say, from a liability standpoint. I could see, where that would be I mean we just have to face it. Cops are a fucking liability yeah, but how? Are you?

Speaker 2: 1:06:31

going to do that job and not have that? Like if you have someone that it doesn't bother. That would be probably a bigger red flag for me.

Speaker 1: 1:06:39

I'm like you're like yeah, sociopath or a psycho. If you're coming home like, oh everything's great, shot a guy today and go to bed, yeah, like that's not normal. So it's normal to have the problems and that's why it's like I feel these cops are already so fucked up because they're they have nowhere to go with it except for the bottle or, yeah, chase something yeah, and then again.

Speaker 2: 1:07:01

Then they don't want to come home and talk to their spouse about it because they don't want to burden them yeah, did it ever, do you?

Speaker 1: 1:07:06

I mean, I want you to be honest. Did you ever feel burdened, or were you? Was that like your role? You knew you had to take on anything he needed to share?

Speaker 2: 1:07:14

Yeah, I don't think I ever felt burdened by it, like I get where, like sometimes they say like I don't want to worry you, I don't want you to be scared, I don't I don't want to burden you with it, but for me it's like the more I knew, the better it was for me, because I also because, again, I gave context to what's going on and what the current mood is Right, but it also made me feel closer to him too, because now we could talk about it and connect and understand. I don't think it ever. I don't think it ever worried me necessarily. I see where some people may see that it just didn't for me. I mean, I also worked in the community that he worked in, so we have some interesting stories about that too what can you share on those?

Speaker 2: 1:07:57

So after I graduated, I did community-based treatment and so I would go to people's houses and part of my territory was our, our community, and he was. It was when he was in a in drugs Um and I worked for, and I work for, medicaid. So you know, I'm not going to the really nice side of town most of the time to see my clients, and so there's one client I was going to and I was, you know, walking up to her house and I get a phone call. It's TJ and I'm like, hey, he's like what are you doing? I'm at my work, about to go into a visit. He's. He's like what are you doing? Yeah, I work about to go about to go into a visit. He's like I know what are you doing. And I'm like where are you?

Speaker 2: 1:08:39

he's like I'm doing surveillance on the house you're about to walk into no I was like, he was like let me know the layout bye yeah, he was an informant.

Speaker 1: 1:08:50

Huh well, it was, it was the woman's house. Woman's house was my client. It was, it was the woman's house.

Speaker 2: 1:08:55

It was my client. It was her son that was dealing drugs out of the back that I didn't know about.

Speaker 1: 1:08:58

No shit.

Speaker 2: 1:09:00

He was like give me the layout Bye, Don't touch anything.

Speaker 1: 1:09:03

Don't leave your fingerprints on anything.

Speaker 2: 1:09:06

Well, they thought he might be cooking meth in the back of the house. He's like so if you see any bottles, leave.

Speaker 1: 1:09:16

I'm like okay, that's hilarious, random stuff like that, or I'd be sitting in someone's house and I'd see his drug car right by and I'd be like Small town Always creeping, always. I would have.

Speaker 2: 1:09:22

Yeah, he'd be like where are you going today? I'd be like I'm going to this apartment complex and he's like what time should we visit 10.? He's like, okay, see his car coming by.

Speaker 1: 1:09:31

I may or may not be in the area. That's pretty nice though. I mean. You know you got them on standby. Just have a little panic button and door kicks in two seconds later.

Speaker 2: 1:09:39

Yeah, some houses I didn't tell him I went to until afterwards, cause I knew it would get him year full.

Speaker 1: 1:09:43

Oh really, what was that like? Going into people's houses that are obviously just?

Speaker 2: 1:09:49

See they, I never felt unsafe, like I was the social worker that was coming to bring services. You know what I mean. Like more often than not, they wanted me there, they needed me there.

Speaker 1: 1:09:57

So You're bringing. I don't want to say narcotics, but oh no.

Speaker 2: 1:10:01

So I would bring, like I would put services in place, like if, if they needed, like, a home health aide to come in, ok, I would assess, like how many hours they would they would get for a home health aid or, um, you know, connect them to different resources.

Speaker 1: 1:10:15

That would be like free food, meals, emergency buttons so you're dealing with a lot of below poverty type. How? What is that like dealing with? I mean, is it you're dealing with people that are just have nothing? That's sad, is it sad?

Speaker 2: 1:10:31

yeah, I think it gives you a different perspective on life. Like sure, not everything. Know, everyone's normal is very different. You know, what I think is normal is not normal to somebody else. What somebody else thinks is normal is not normal to me, and it's not right or wrong, it's just different, for sure. And so just helping people and educating people to that is like okay, you have these resources, we can do this for you. That is like okay, you have these resources, we can do this for you. And some people just don't even know that that resource is available, um, or that you know, you don't have to have to make that choice. There's other things that you can do.

Speaker 1: 1:11:03

How many of the people actually want the help? Is it the majority or some of them? Just you lead a horse to water and they're just going to. They're always going to be in this situation.

Speaker 2: 1:11:11

I would like for the population I work with, like I work with a chronically, chronically, physically like physical illnesses and mental illness, so people that have chronic illnesses that maybe don't have that mental illness component, I would say those are probably my most compliant folks that, like, they understand that they need treatment, they know how to take their medications, they go to the doctors, they do the things that they need to do. When you add mental illness in there, that's when you see compliance go down, because as soon as you know, as soon as they start feeling better, then they stop taking the medications or not doing the things that they need. So I would say it's probably like 75%, I think, really are welcoming the services, 25% are just checking the box. Yeah, what was the most?

Speaker 2: 1:12:12

rewarding part of watching your husband build a career in the law enforcement world to you. So when tj was in in undercover with drugs he had an informant, um and she actually you were with her for a long time and like we would talk um, because social worker in me I was like I want to know, like what is she going through? Can I help her?

Speaker 2: 1:12:34

like was she can I fix her um but she um. I would say you know, watching the mental shift from these people do these things to what choices have they had in life that made them have to choose this path. I think seeing that change really made my heart happy, because I think he got a better understanding of people and it just opened up his eyes so much to like it's not all black and white, there's so much gray and it's not just a criminal.

Speaker 2: 1:13:21

Yeah, in that world yeah, um, and I think he saw the humanity side of it at that point, um, but also like just knowing that, like how much he loved his job you know how much he loves his community and it like he truly saw it as like he's making this a better place, a safer place for our son, and like even an interaction that we had, like probably just a month ago, where we walked into a store to buy my son a new, or two months ago probably, walked into a store to buy my son a new winter coat. The salesman on the floor was someone that he arrested years ago, but they knew each other well, so it's not like it was just the cop that arrested him. It's like they lived in the same town so they knew who each other were. And like TJ, going up to me, like man, I'm just glad to see that you're doing OK, I'm glad to see that you are, that you're alive and that you're here.

Speaker 2: 1:14:24

Like I wasn't super happy, but you know, just knowing that like really the work of making things better is the whole reason that that he's doing it. You know what I mean. I think people think like, oh, cops just get in because they're a power trip and blah, blah blah. No, people generally want to do better. They really genuinely want their community to be safer, for sure you know especially the smaller communities.

Speaker 1: 1:14:46

It's so much more personal and you can see your impact actually making changes for the ones that are actually trying and doing their job correctly, you know and it could go the opposite way in those small communities as well. You get labeled as a shitty asshole cop.

Speaker 2: 1:15:01

I mean, yeah, it spreads real quick yeah, yeah, I mean I think that was I would say that's been the the the best part of seeing his. Him, you know, we were, you know, young when you become a police officer and then you, you get wiser as you go in in life and I think just seeing that that progression throughout his career is really cool how do you see him now?

Speaker 1: 1:15:28

as your husband? That's probably your best friend. You guys have been together a few years yeah, I hate to be so cliche.

Speaker 2: 1:15:37

I tell her all the time I'd rather hang out with you the most. I would too 100, um, but yeah, he's my best friend, um he's, I would say. Since the shooting. It has brought us significantly closer together how we don't have time for bullshit anymore. Okay, you know what I mean. Like that's just out the window. Now what?

Speaker 1: 1:15:56

do you mean Like you just look at life differently, you just don't deal with it.

Speaker 2: 1:16:00

We prioritize life now. Mm-hmm. You know, we prioritize our family and each other now. How. You know it's more important for us to TJ will never miss an event of Reese's Okay us to TJ will never miss an event of Reese's Okay, um, if he has a speaking engagement. You know he's that Reese's stuff is always priority. Our stuff is always priority. Um, work is a secondary. Now I'm still working on that. He did us a great job of it, um, but it's, our marriage has never been closer, closer we're very open with each other.

Speaker 1: 1:16:41

Um, I feel like that's not common, that could be completely wrong, but I feel after something like that, it can go I can go either way either. Either way.

Speaker 2: 1:16:52

Yeah, and I see that. I see where people are willing to have conversations with everybody else, but the person Right and TJ and I are very open with each other. Good. More so than maybe than he likes sometimes.

Speaker 1: 1:17:10

Truth hurts, but it's how a relationship works. You works, you know yeah I don't always want to hear it, but yeah sometimes we got to check each other and get each other back on track yeah, yeah, that's definitely brought us closer together out of everything has there been a major change like a life life change since the shooting? I mean it. I'm talking like opening your eyes up to just life in general.

Speaker 2: 1:17:38

Yeah, yeah, um, I don't know. I think I see life is more fragile now Sometimes. You know what I mean. Um, it can be gone in a minute, it can be gone in a minute, everything can be gone in a minute, and so you just have the value, what you have now yeah like it can't always be, you know. I'll tell them I love them later, next time, like it has to be today I bet you he never leaves the house without you saying it, huh no, nor does my son.

Speaker 2: 1:18:15

He probably gets really annoyed with me, god mom yeah, I know I love you love you. He's like I know, I'm like okay, what do you just checking?

Speaker 1: 1:18:24

yeah, yeah I'm glad you guys have uh are definitely a success story, I feel there's one. To make it through 19, 20 years in the law enforcement community as a married couple is a is an accomplishment of their own. So congratulations to you guys for that, and two by you being an incredible wife and being there for your husband through some of the shittiest times of his life. That is not an easy thing to do. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:18:54

Props to you. Thank you. A lot of credit some of the shittiest times of his life. But an easy that is not an easy thing to do. Yeah, props to you.

Speaker 2: 1:18:56

Thank you a lot of credit.

Speaker 1: 1:18:57

I don't think wives and especially military wives, law enforcement wives, first responders they do not get the credit that they deserve. By holding down the fort, putting kids off to school, making sure dinner's ready, the house is picked up and functioning because god knows we can't function a house on our own, at least I can't. Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's a pretty incredible thing, a lot. That's why I wanted to talk to you today, because there's when you get into the, the, when you feel that you have an incredible wife and then you see other wives and you know and you hear their stories, and to be able to go through everything you guys did and come out on top yeah it's not.

Speaker 2: 1:19:39

I don't feel like it's a very common thing there's and I would love to see more wives supporting each other, um being that support for each other. I would love to see um seasoned I don't want to say seasoned wives, but wives that have been in the in the field for in the know with their spouse for a while in first responder world, you know. You know, take that role, as you know, nurturing the younger generation. I hate to say that because I'm no longer the younger generation, but you know, I think, and I think I think that we could, I think we do a disservice to each other and we need to do better.

Speaker 1: 1:20:14

Yeah, Such a weird fragile community and I think that we could. I think we do a disservice to each other and we need to do better.

Speaker 3: 1:20:17

Yeah, such a weird fragile community, cannibalistic community. Mm-hmm it can't be.

Speaker 1: 1:20:22

It's like I think we got to rechange everything. It's almost like we got to swipe it and start over. Yeah. From the bottom up.

Speaker 2: 1:20:30

I think it just needs to be mental health just needs to be the norm, Like it needs to be part of your shift, part of your work, part of your week, whatever it is.

Speaker 1: 1:20:40

It just makes sense. Yeah. And I see it all the time, I probably say it almost every episode like make it make sense. It's like how are we not giving that help? Like make that make sense how these guys, guys are going through and girls going through all, yeah, what they go through every day and nobody's. Yeah. Well, you guys got an organization. Now Maybe that's a new, a new program you're going to add on to it. Okay, I got one last question for you.

Speaker 2: 1:21:06

Sure.

Speaker 1: 1:21:07

There was one message that you want to leave for your husband. What would it be? Oh my gosh. Hmm husband what would?

Speaker 2: 1:21:28

it be. Thank you, thanks for not giving up. We needed him. We still do every day. Tell him that every day well, not every day, but we need like we.

Speaker 1: 1:21:33

Thank you for fighting not every day, but we need, like we thank you for fighting. Yeah, got a badass one, dude. I'm not crying, you're crying, amanda, thank you. Thank you so much for jumping on it's a. Spouses need more credit, way more credit, and I want them to be able to get your side of it and hear a little bit of your story, and not many people just think about it. But the wives are who hold the fort down and I think we need to get them out there more and hear more of their stories.

Speaker 1: 1:22:10

And thank you for sharing about some of the most simplest things. I feel like I mean, I know it's going to be, it's not simple, but just being able to get the community together and give resources and maybe start giving field training classes to future police wives and things like that, I mean it's a great, it's so. It seems so simple and I hope it's happening in this country. But maybe that's something that somebody hears and light bulb goes off and holy shit. You know the wives are. I hate to say it, but there are punching bags. You know, especially in early years, when you're young and dumb and don't know how to control your emotions, your wives are punching bags. We come home and we take things out on them and you know it's for no reason and a lot of guys probably don't even know how to process that.

Speaker 2: 1:22:56

You always take it out on the safest person, right?

Speaker 1: 1:22:59

Unfortunately. Yeah. And it takes a lot of maturing or going through a lot of different wives or relationships to start figuring that out, and usually it's too late. So maybe something as simple as that Field training for law enforcement or first responder wives. Same goes for paramedics, I mean they're dealing with drama.

Speaker 2: 1:23:18

They deal with these bad stuff all day. That's what they do I don't get enough credit.

Speaker 1: 1:23:23

Well, thank you for joining. I really appreciate it. It was incredible to hear your story and thank you for being an incredible wife. Y'all don't get enough credit and mother and so so thank you appreciate your time thanks.