Ep 85 Between TWO Kings?! What’s that all about?! LINDSAY STRAUBE IS BACK!!! | Exclusive Author Interview

First EXCLUSIVE Author Interview with Lindsay Straube for Between to Kings is here!

Just a short year ago Kiss of the Basilisk (or Split or Swallow for those of you who’ve been here since the beginning 🙌) took the romance literature world by storm! Lindsay Straube, known to many as @oxfordlemon on Instagram went from a hilarious meme account to self published bestselling author of one of the most unique monster romances to date, to a bestselling traditionally published author with a three book deal with Bloom Books in record time. 

We are so lucky to say that we brought Lindsay on as our first author interview and her first podcast appearance to talk all about her debut, and now we’re back to chat all about her insanely anticipated sequel Between Two Kings, available everywhere on November 11th! We are just a week away from release date and we cannot wait for you all to read this book! It gets a five star, five spice rating from both of us, and as you know, that’s essentially a perfect book! 

Stick around for a spoiler free interview with the incredibly talented woman behind the Split or Swallow universe! Our conversation goes deep into what it’s like to go from self publishing to “trad,” what new works are coming down the pipeline, how Between Two Kings is different from Kiss of the Basilisk, and at the end of the day, why Lindsay is still team Leo. Oh, and we make sure to include an eff, marry, kill, and a segment on what Lindsay has to say to the snake sex haters! 

It feels surreal to officially have authors we consider “friends of the podcast” but here we are. So give it up for Lindsay, the genius behind “the ritual” and now, “the sex-tournament” heard ‘round the romance world. And make sure to preorder your books, follow @oxfordlemon, and keep an eye out for our Between Two Kings deep dive, coming soon! 

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Check out our coverage of the Split or Swallow Universe! ⬇️🐍⬇️

Watch / Listen to our first official Author Interview with Lindsay Straube of Split or Swallow! No

The Podcast Inside Your House

Weird Horror. Created by Kevin Schrock and Annie Marie Morgan. 

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You've Got to Be Critting Me
Magic, mayhem, and moral dilemmas, an actual play with heart and hilarity!

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Besties and the Books
• 3:35 Lindsay Straube Between Two Kings Exclusive Interview Q & A
• 9:09 [Ad] The Podcast Inside Your House
• 9:57 (Cont.) Lindsay Straube Between Two Kings Exclusive Interview Q & A
• 17:57 [Ad] You've Got to Be Critting Me
• 18:36 (Cont.) Lindsay Straube Between Two Kings Exclusive Interview Q & A
• 52:43 Unhinged Smash or Pass

Transcript

She's literally a virgin, you know, and by the end of the second book, she's not in. Didn't see that coming. Oh, didn't see that coming. I'm like, gosh, just to be 10, though, like imagine how she must feel. Let's talk about Apollo. Yes. [Music] Hey everyone, I'm Ashley. And I'm Liz. And this is the Besties and the Books podcast. We have a very special, mostly spoiler-free. If there's any little spoilers, we'll make sure to let you guys know in advance. Author interview episode for you today. Friend of the podcast. We feel comfortable saying that at this point, Lindsay Stra is back to spill the tea on her upcoming sequel to the Bassilisk romance that took us all by storm just about a year ago. Originally titled Slit or Swallow, but changed to Kiss of the Bassilisk is one of the spiciest and most unique romanty books we've ever read. I mean, I can only speak for us, but definitely. Um, and we're so excited to have her back on to get the scoop on the sequel, Between Two Kings, just right here behind me here. Very appropriately titled, by the way. I can't I can't wink, but I'm winking at you guys right now. is the highly anticipated book two in Lindsay's Split or Swallow series, available to pre-order now everywhere you find your favorite books, including Barnes & Noble and Amazon, and will officially release on November 11th, which is just right around the corner. Oh my gosh, so exciting. You guys, dude, mark your calendars, get those pre-orders in, get ready, buckle up, buttercup. And by the way, if you if you'd like to find out a little bit more about Lindsay and some backtories, we did interview her last year when Split or Swallow came out. And as we talked about, Kiss of the Bass Lisk. So, I'll definitely have that interview linked down below if you want to check that out. Some more deep dive into the backstory of the inception of the Serpent books, and it's so much fun. If you'd like to find out what it's like to go from self-publishing your first romance book to being a traditionally published author, what you'll be getting into when you pick this series up. If you'd like to get to know the author behind the story and possibly find out what's on the horizon for Lindsay, stick around. But before we get into that, we just wanted to say thank you so much for being here. Seriously, guys, thank you so much for taking time out of your day and your book to come hang out with us. Come chat and see what Lindsay has to say. Some behind the scenes. Make sure to like, follow, and subscribe everywhere you like to list your favorite podcast, including YouTube. And head over to Instagram and follow Lindsay at Oxford Lemon for such a good time. Oh, we cannot stress it. So much fun. Always a good time over there. Fun memes, sneak peeks, behind the scenes of the book, like everything. It's so much fun. And then also make sure you're followed and subscribed because we're going to be having our deep dive episode covering Between Two Kings next week. So that's going to be full of spoilers. So, get to reading as soon as you can. I don't care if you spend your time up all night consuming it because you want to know all the information before we dive in. I mean, uh, it's so easy to binge. It is truly. That's it. It's so easy to binge if you're up all night. Like, it would surprise me if you weren't up all night. You know what I mean? Yeah. Truly, truly. Now, let's just bring on the hilarious meme account turned Amazon best-selling author turned best-selling tradublished author of the infamous quote unquote snake sex books, Lindsay Stra. Lindsay lives in Portland, Oregon, where she drinks tequila with lemon and watches TV with subtitles on. On any given Tuesday, you can find her at the movies. Welcome, Lindsay. Thank you for having me. Thank you. It's such an honor to be here. It is such an honor to be back. You guys are the best. I'm so excited to talk about this book. Thank you so much for coming back on us. We feel so honored. We love it. And we are so excited to talk about this book, too. Oh my gosh. Same. Yay. All right. So, just like last time, we're going to be asking you your fave and fail, but this time between two kings edition. So, if you want to, you know, talk about the best and worst parts about writing part two or about becoming traditionally published, whatever have you, the floor is yours. Let's see. The best and worst part, h the first time around when I was self-published, I anytime I had a little bit of wine, I could just kind of share whatever I wanted to on my stories like about the book. I could post spoilers. I could do whatever I wanted. And now that I'm traditionally published, there are rules around that. like I can't I I mean not like technical ones, but I definitely can't just share in the way that I used to. And I also if somebody was just in my DMs asking for a copy of the book, I would just email it to them like back in the day. And now I absolutely cannot do that. That is not allowed. So I think there's a lot of differences that I'm navigating now that I'm tried. Um but I wouldn't even categorize any of that as like a fail. It's just it's just it's just a different world. There's just a lot more rules now. It's It's just a It's a stricter thing. When you're self-published, there are no rules. You make up all the rules yourself. You could do whatever you want. Now I have to play by the rules. Yeah. Mhm. That would be such a like is it like whiplash or like did it take some getting used to like in that regard? It definitely Yes, it took some getting used to. I will say though I'm lucky because Bloom, who is my publisher, they I think they really understand me. They understand my audience and my readership and so they let me do what they know that I like need to do for my readers. They're fine. They've never flagged like a single post that I've done. Any of my previews like they're like whatever you know your audience best like go for it. So that's been great. Um but other things you know working on a deadline now is different. Like the like I used to just make up my own deadlines girl. Yeah. Does it feel harder to for you to work? I know some people they thrive under deadlines, some people it stresses them out and it stunts creativity. How did you navigate that? I think it's like twofold for me. Sometimes it helps because it motivates you. Sometimes it does not help. It can scare you and discourage you. Like for example, right now I'm on a deadline and it's in February and that's fine except I know I have all the holidays coming up. like you always get a little bit less work done than you think you're going to get done during the time and so it's like it's a learning curve for sure but I'm lucky that I've always been someone who does generally fine under deadlines and thank god I'm not sure how you would do this job if you if you couldn't work under that structure it would be impossible yeah I could see that for sure yeah I also thrive under deadlines most of the time so I get I get that almost like makes me like if I don't have a goal then I tend to like lolly gag too much. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So what should people expect if they're thinking about reading this series now that we know that it consists of two books? So obviously Kiss of the Basilisk, the sequel Between Two Kings, and now we know that there's going to be a prequel. So three books. So exciting. It is exciting. Uh, the prequel comes out, I think, in a year. I think it'll be next year, which is great. And, uh, I think like what you can expect is a lot of sex. Um, a lot of growth for our main character, Tam. Uh, she I think she goes through a lot. The first book, she's literally a virgin, you know, and by the end of the second book, she's not like she's she's absolutely she's not anymore. She has [ __ ] half the kingdom, I would say. and we love that for her. Um, and so I I think like just expect expect a journey in all sense of the word. Like expect a journey. You're really just going to need to let go and like go on the ride with us because I think it's impossible to really even describe especially book two where book two ends up and where it where it goes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's like for I feel like, you know, since obviously we've read it, it's like it's so it's like I want to talk about every little detail, but you guys will have to wait for the deep dive time cuz we don't want to spoil everything. Yeah, I know it's tempting. Look, how do you think I feel? I'm always on my Instagram like you guys have no idea. Yeah, you guys don't even know what's coming. Just buckle up, guys. Buckle up. Buckle up. Mhm. So, just out of curiosity, if you were to describe like one major difference between like between two kings and kiss of the bassilisk, would there be anything that you would mention as being like a major difference between the two? Let's see. I would say in um between two kings, we leave the competition setting of the first book. You know, in the first book, we had the bachelor kind of vibe where we're going through and she's trying to win over the prince. And then in book two, all bets are off. I I think it it it goes completely in a not in a different direction necessarily. We're still in the same world and doing all that, seeing all the same people. But a major difference is that kind of integral structure is now gone and we're the world is much bigger and a lot more happens and you see a lot more of the basilisk culture. She TM is under the mountain. She is dealing with Caspen and his family and and the structure of his society. And so we see so much that we did not see in the first book because Caspen shielded her from it and she just TM wasn't even in that world yet. Now she's fully integrated and we're in it. Mhm. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I felt like we just kept getting like thrown curveballs, you know, and I love that because I was like, "Oh, didn't see that coming." Oh, didn't see that coming. I'm like, gosh, just to be temp though, like imagine how she must feel. Oh my god. Yes, she gets a lot thrown at her. Literally. Hey. Um, but and that but that's why I like it. I think um it a lot of the reaction I had to book one was there was so many twists and turns and so it was like how are you going to are you going to do that again in book two? And the answer is yes. Um, you know, and the way that I do that really often, most of the time is I don't even know what's coming next. I don't even know. I just write and I see what gets presented to me by the situation in the characters. And so I think that's what's so fun about these books is you just you never know what's going to happen. And not only that, nothing is off the table. If I have one weird idea, a girl believe, I'm going to run with it and I'm going to write it and I'm going to make it as extreme as possible. So there's there's always something and that's what makes it so great. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, totally. I feel like just to interject really quick too, I feel like it's really validating. Maybe it's just I don't think it's just me, but maybe it's just me, but I feel like when I read some of these ideas that you come up with, um I'm kind of almost like validated because I'm like gosh, I have these like crazy like I don't even know how to say it. Like sometimes these crazy like sex ideas will pop into my head and I'm like is that crazy or has no one just like reflected that idea like back to me in popular media before so it hasn't been validated and I feel like you do such a good job of like nope everything's on the table like we're putting it out there and it makes me feel seen I'll just say absolutely I like my rule in the books is basically as long as everything is happening between two consenting adults Anything's on the table. Like, it's fine. Anything's fine. As long as we have two consenting humans. I guess they're snakes, but you know what I mean. Yeah. You know what I mean? Um, two consenting adults, then it's fine. And I think, um, especially lately in the romantic sphere or the erotica sphere, I think people are pushing the boundary more in a in a good way. I think like having kind of a representation of fun and interesting sex on the page is important. It's fun to read and I and why not use your imagination a little more? And I I'm such a big proponent of like not shaming people for anything if I can help it really because like life intrinsically and also just being a woman we carry so much shame for anything. maybe what we wear, what we eat, certainly what we like in bed. And so like I just think like if we can dispel that as much as possible, then that's the way to go. Mhm. Agreed on all accounts. Here, here, here, here, here. So, switching gears a little bit, what's the biggest way your life has changed in the last year? Oh my god. I mean, it's like, what hasn't changed in my life? This has been this has been the most insane batshit crazy process ever. I think like when from the moment we announced that the series had been picked up from then on out it's just been nuts. And then I was going on my very first tour book tour. Like that's just not something that I I when I was a kid I always wanted to be a writer and so I would kind of tangentially imagine these things. but you then are doing it for real and people are in a line to see you and they've read your book and they're talking about your characters. It's so special. I think this this whole experience has brought me closer to my readers and it has also just been such an eyeopening an eyeopening thing and I I can't even I don't know. It's it's bizarre. It's absolutely bizarre. Um but in a good way. I don't have any complaints. None. It's been great. Yeah, it actually it does seem like you kind of hit the ground running. You got picked up and then it's like, "Oh, Lindsay's on a book tour." Like boom. Yes. What was that like? It was insane. It was insane. And I think Bloom again, my publisher, they also move very quickly. I think they're very like ahead of the times. Um they turn they turn uh their turnaround time is quicker than I think other publishers, which I just think is smart. I just think that that's like kind of where things are headed with the internet and book talk and these things that people fall in love with so quickly. You have to be able to like if I had been picked up by someone else, it's possible that it would have been a year and a half or two years before Splitter Swallow. Wow. It was It was then called Splitter Swallow would be hitting the shelves. Instead, I it came out 6 months after I got picked up. I went on tour. I wrote the second one. I'm now going on tour again. That's coming out in a month. Like we keep it moving. And I just think that's, you know, I think that's great. So, but very excited for the tour to answer your question. Yay. So exciting. Yeah. I see. When does that start? You have all the dates listed on your Instagram. Yes. All the dates are on my Instagram. I think there's like eight locations. We're really excited. I think that's like double from last year. I think there was like four last year. So, it's so fun. And I know people really wanted the East Coast. And so, we're going to New York. We're going to DC. Um, and I believe it starts the 11th. November 11th. I think literally that's the first that event sold out, but the rest I think have not. Although I haven't checked. I don't look at any of that. I don't want to know. So exciting. Oh, that's so cool. Everybody go see her if she comes to a town near you. Right. Please do. Please do. We already had someone DM us um in response to one of the reels we posted basically being like, I'll be in New York at um your book tour at the Barnes & Noble in Times Square. So fun. That's so fun. I cannot wait. He's so exciting. We had the pleasure of actually seeing Lindsay in person last year at the San Diego. It was um hosted by Miss Gallery, M Galaxy Books and they had to switch over to meet cute bookshops. But you guys, it's like you get a two for one special with Lindsay. You get a comedy show and you get like deep book thoughts and it's just we were having a hoot. You were hilarious. It was so fun and I think that was one of my first events. I was definitely still like very green. And every honestly every time I get up there I'm like how does anyone allow me to have a microphone? This just seems like a bad idea. Like I can't not spoil things. I can't not swear. I can't not like get too personal. Like I'm I'm a media terror. But it is what it is. Oh, it seems so effortless for you. So it didn't come across that way. You seem like a natural for sure. Thank you. Oh my god. Um, so going back to Between Two Kings, what would you say if you had to pick your top three favorite tropes from this book specifically, what would they be? This is hard cuz like I don't know necessarily how many tropes it like follows that are normal. You know what I mean? Like is there an enemies to lovers? Like not really. Like brothers brother's best friend. No, brother. I Is that a trope? Brother, I mean, it is now. Brother is the trope. Uh, that would be my favorite. Gladiator sex tournament. That's my other trope. And if that's not a trope already, it should be is be a trail a trailblazer of tropes. Yeah. Yeah. That's really what we should do. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that I follow like the conventional trope structure cuz I'm just going with my gut, but I I really do think that like the brother the brother involvement is my favorite one by far. That's was very important to me. Yeah, we enjoyed it as well. Yeah, I'm I'm so glad. Like I always say I'm team Leo, but secretly in my gut I'm a team Apollo. Oh, and I'm It's not a secret for me anymore. Loud and proud. Apollo is like the best of both worlds to me. Yes. So, thank you for that. Thank you. I love him so much. I had the most fun I've ever had writing a character, writing him. Yeah. O, he's a good one, guys. You just wait. He's a good one. Look forward to it. I know, right? Yeah. So, we had to throw this in there because I was curious. Did you include any tropes you personally dislike as a reader? So, is there anything in there that you were like, I don't know? No, not in Between Two Kings, but in the prequel. Yes. Okay. So, the upcoming prequel. This is not a spoiler. Everyone knows that TM exists, so we know her mom gets pregnant at some point. Um, and I don't I don't enjoy the pregnancy trope. Like, I don't enjoy any of that, but that is included in the prequel. Um, but I'm surprised by how much fun I had writing it because it fit for her and for that character. like it wouldn't, you know, I I I wouldn't have wanted to do it for other characters necessarily and maybe if I had done it for other characters, it wouldn't have been as fun. But I've been very adamant from the beginning. I've said in a a million times that TM just has sex for pleasure. We're never going to worry about a pregnancy with her. Like I've said that from the start, but then in the prequel, we do explore it with Daphne. And so that's that's interesting. Okay. And natural makes sense. Yeah. I feel like you can't write a series with this much sex and not have anybody get pregnant at some point. It's got like it's just they have to someone's got to give someone has to. Well, and as you say, it's like we already know that Tim came from somewhere. So, we know we know like that's we know it has to happen.

So, do you have a ballpark roundabout um how long it took you to write Between Two Kings? Yes. So, I would say about six months. Um, which is quick. It's written in my contract that my books have to be 200,000 words. So, to everybody complaining about the length, girl, I am following the rules. Um, that is what I have to do and I love to do it. Um, because if it was shorter, quite frankly, I don't think I would even be good at winding down. Um, but it took me about six months and that's I think in my perfect world I would have a year to write my books and that's kind of the schedule we're getting on now which is great. Um, it was just kind of a whirlwind this first time but I would yeah I would say six months really pull it out. Yeah. Okay. I think in the last interview we talked about how the first novel was more of a pancer novel. Do you feel like this one you were still kind of vibing that way or do you feel like you had to change your style a little bit, plotting a little bit more, or did you still kind of just let it all flow? This one um this one is it's different. Maybe it's kind of in between. This one I just knew how it would end and so I just knew I had to get there. And there were also just so many kind of plot points that were individual that I wanted to hit. So really it was like I kind of laid it out and then I was just connecting. And so I it it's not that I like outlined it or anything like that. I just knew where I had to go, where I had to end up and I just like pushed through to get there. So I wouldn't say I had an official plotting method, but this one very much like flowed out of me cuz I just was like, I know exactly where we need to get this and like let me just get there. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. I'm just curious too, like do you like do you plan to like write a certain amount every day or do you just like wait till it comes to you and then like binge write a whole bunch at a time? It's a it's a bit of a combination of both. I really like to write um 2,000 words a day just like as a general rule. Uh just to keep things moving forward always. Um but I don't necessarily always have a perfect scene in head to do that for. So sometimes that's just like freewriting to like guess get something down. Um the thing about working on such a tight deadline is like you have to write even when you're not in the mood to write. There's just no room to not do that. So you have to get used to just doing it even if there's no inspiration. Um which is where when I'm working in this world in the Splitter Swallow universe, I'm very comfortable in there and I understand these characters a lot and like they they speak to me in a way. So, it's easy for me, even if I'm not feeling inspired by a scene or something, I am comfortable in this world. And so, it's not easy, but it's it's it's easier for me to write in it, no matter what's no matter what's going on. Yeah. Okay. So, that being said, now that you told us that the prequel Yes. is coming out in about a year, can you give us any type of insider scoop on this prequel? Who's it about? any teasers, anything like that? I can say it's I mean I'm still finalizing things with this, but it is about it is about Tim's mom and her relationship with uh Tim's dad and there is also a large portion of it that's from Caspen's point of view. Um which I think people will love because there's a lot of Caspen girlies out there and they'll I think they'll enjoy that. And the reason for that is because he has so much there's so much going on with Caspen, Caspen's dad and Caspen's brother, right before TM comes on the scene in uh Kiss of the Bassilisk. So that's it's literally 20 years before it's the events right before Kiss of the Basilisk. And so I think I think it it's very interesting. It's very fun. There's also some POV from Maximus, which is Leo's dad, because Leo isn't born yet, but Maximus is going through the training process and the competition with Tim's mom, Daphne. So, she she's being trained by her basilisk, she's going through the competition for Leo's dad's hand in marriage. I love and and when you start like when I started kind of getting in there and being like, "Okay, so who who does what with who and how far can we take this and what who can't do something with this person because that is icky." Like it is a it is a tangled web tangled and it's it's extremely messy and it's very fun and I think people are going to love it. is now I randomly sorry but a lot of prequels tend to be almost nolla in size. Is this going to be a full length book? Girl, this is a full length book. It's the same size as all the others. It's huge and it's sprawling and it's it's got so it's so much fun to write because I'm exploring like Caspen from his own mind. He's so interesting to write in his point of view. like he's so fun. He's so like old and kerogyny in like a lot of ways and like but then of course we know eventually he gets completely undone by this like girl and so I just it's like such a thrill to explore his character a little more in a different format separate from Tim like before she even comes on the scene. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds amazing. Yeah. Looking forward to it. Oh my gosh. Okay. So, kind of tangentially related, but do you have any other works outside of the SOS universe that are coming down the pipeline that you can mention? Yes, I do. I can't mention them specifically because now that I'm traditional published, I can't like say anything. Um, I'll be able to announce them. All I can say is watch my Instagram because I will announce them there. I will announce when it when you're traditionally published, there's something called publishers marketplace, which is where deals are listed, like book deals. I will be posting I'll be posting the deal and then when that's posted, everyone can see exactly what's coming down the pipeline. But I do think I can say I think I can at least say there's a standalone in its own universe coming. It's separate from Splitter Swallow. It's its own thing. And then after that, there's other things coming. That's what I'm saying. Great. We'll take it. sign us up. All the above. We've talked about a little bit of inspiration that you took from some media uh for the first book, but did anything inspire you maybe with any, you know, scenes at play for Between Two Kings? Yes, absolutely. I I I don't know if I've talked about this. I think I have, but I watched Gladiator with Oh, that's right. with with Paul Mezcow and I don't remember who else is in that. It was so many hot people I was overwhelmed honestly. Um and I just thought that that was an interesting setup because they fight to the death basically. It was kind of it's kind of like Hunger Games. They they all get in there and then they all like basically just have to die and then also you have somebody on the sideline who is like approving or not literally with their thumb like thumbs up or thumbs down. And so I was like, well, what if TM is the person who's kind of they're fighting for her in a way? I had to first figure out how do they why are they fighting for her and then second of all, how can she approve them and then how can she participate? And so basically that's where you get the tournament in in between two kings. Um, and I also just in my head I was like, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a sex tournament in a book before. And so if I were to write one, what does that look like? And like that's that's where that came from. It was directly inspired by Gladiator. Super fun. Super fun. I love that. It's even in an arena in the same way. Like it's the same thing. Yeah. Well, it has helped cuz it was easy to visualize. For sure. Yeah, totally. Totally. The white sand and it's the stands around it and I was like, "Everyone knows what this looks like, you know." Yeah, for sure. I haven't seen it yet, but now I feel like if I do watch it, I'll just be like, "Oh, well, this isn't as entertaining as Lindsay's version." Yeah. Yeah. Just just imagine me in the theater. I've had two roses and I'm like, you know what would be great? If they were all [ __ ] That's so funny. So, okay. So, we know that you are a self-proclaimed Leo girl. Like, we know this. So, give us some reasons why. What are some things that you love about Leo? I Okay, first of all, I love Leo because he's human. I know everybody loves Caspen because he's not human, but to me that's not a draw. I love that Leo is flawed. I love that he's mortal. Like, I love that he has a finite amount of time to make his like mark with Tim. Like, they have only a finite amount of time together. I love that. And I love how he he he is so willing to just take a part of her. He's the kind of guy who's like, "Look, if all you can give me is a part, then I'll take that. that's a better than nothing at all. Whereas like Caspen is a very all or nothing kind of guy. And I I love a guy who's like, "No, literally if you just want to look at me in the morning, that's enough. And I if I don't get you for the rest of the day and you go home to him, like fine. At least I had that minute in the morning." Like that's what Leo is to me. He's so loyal and he's so he's down so bad. I love a man who's down bad. A Yeah. Mhm. So, because of this, because of your love for Leo, was it easier or harder to write Caspen? Oh, easier or harder? H I think I think the two complement each other really well. They give Tim different things. And so, I think in a way it's easier because I just know exactly what she needs to get from Caspen versus what she gets from Leo. And when one of them isn't giving her something, she goes she gets it from the other. like and they're they're really I think obviously Tim and her relationships with these men are interesting, but the Leo and Caspen's connection to each other is also interesting. I they play such different roles in her life. They're such foils for each other in a way um that I think it it makes it easier because I know who Caspen is and I know who Leo is and I just know exactly I know how to play them off of each other, you know, because I just know what they can each do. So, that being said, like this is something I was really curious about as I was reading Between Two Kings. Is there anything that you can tell us about what Leo and Caspen each represented to you without giving any major spoilers

or if you have to do a spoiler, we can, you know, maybe enter a little spoiler section, too. May I I don't know if I can let me think if I can phrase it as I I can't do it without a spoiler because it'll then we'll know. We moved this portion of the interview into next week's deep dive episode. That way you guys have a chance to read Between Two Kings and nothing is spoiled because Lindsay dives in deep to the real meat of the story as well as the ending you guys. So stay tuned for that episode. We'll have it included with the timestamp. Do you feel like you relate to Tim more or less as she evolves in book two? Um, I think I don't know if like relate is the right word. I I admire her in book two a lot. Um, I really love that she kind of repeatedly like chooses herself until she's like ready to like figure out what she really wants. Um, it's so hard because Tim really in general is not that relatable in like what she's going through. But I do, but I do think she's not relatable like literally, but I think she's relatable emotionally. Um, she's she started out so new and vulnerable and clueless and she ends up really like war torn and harrowed and like she now under she no longer has that innocence that she had in the first book. Um, and so I relate to that journey. I think any girl can relate to that journey. Like we kind of like we start out and we don't have much going on and then we go through it and we're like, "Okay, yeah, like we get it by the end." And so, and I I love the way she kind of steps into her power in book two. She she's doing things in book two that in book one she never would have fathomemed doing things that maybe Caspen only had like encouraged her to do and she couldn't yet and now she can. There's just such a growth arc there that I really love for her. And is it relatable? I have no idea, but I I appreciated it. I felt like I mean it was exactly what you said. Maybe her literal circumstance isn't necessarily relatable, but I do feel like the emotional growth definitely was at least for me reading it for sure. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. She what she goes through emotionally is universal. Yeah. But even like seeing like things that are taboo and trying to figure out, wait, okay, let me put what I was raised with aside, what do I actually feel about the circumstances I'm being presented? Cuz I felt like that was a theme that came up a lot in her having to grapple with a different culture and what they do and how things are done versus what she was taught. Mhm. Absolutely. And it really it's a metaphor for really anything that's new to you that you know people who are it's like a metaph if you were highly religious and then you're exposed to different things and you're like oh my gosh this is wrong or is it you know what I mean like everyone kind of like the basilisks are raised in this specific way to them this is completely normal it's normal it's expected and if you don't participate you're insulting me whereas whereas if you're a human and you're going into this unbelievably sexually charged environment, this bizarre circumstance, you're like, "What the hell?" Like, is this? But it doesn't mean that anything is wrong. It's like a it's a it's a commentary on like, think about where you're coming from. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's it's so different for Tim to go and see what they do. And it would be terrifying for anybody to go see what the Basilisks do, but like to them it's normal. That's their daily daily life. So, we've already talked about a few themes, but are there any other themes that you put into Between Two Kings that were extra meaningful to you that you wanted to mention here? I don't know. I I think in the first book it was it was so much about TM like finding her voice and like finding her power. And in the second book, it's about wielding that power. She she hasn't stepped into who she's going to be yet in book one. And then in book two, she does actively do that. And then she has to choose. There's a lot of duality between is this right or is this wrong? And where are you? Like it's like Leo. Leo has been raised his whole life to have the bassilisks in the basement. And he, you know, his whole family thinks that that's right. And it's like he he's a victim of his own circumstance and his own upbringing. And so I think the theme that's important in book two is once you have power, how do you wield it? It's your choice of how to wield it. You have to it's your choice. Like you have to choose to do the better path once you have enough knowledge to choose that, you know, and you can't blame someone for not making moves before they have all the information. But once they do, you it's their responsibility to step up. So as soon as what is that my mom always says, when you know better, you do better. Yeah. Like that's that's kind of what it is. like there are a lot of people with a lot of power in book two and the way they choose to wield it is vastly different and it's it's a reflection of them as characters and so I think that that's that's a huge theme is power. Yeah. Yeah. And the examination that you this is okay this is why I love your writing style with all these books. I thought of it in my head the other day. It's like what's the smut ratio? It's smut versus plot ratio, right? It's like it's so well balanced. Like you're even examining within there cuz some people want to water it down, right, to like a snake sex book, but it's so much more as we've deeply discussed because you're examining also now what happens when there's a change of power, right? Cuz we know from book one, um, Maximus is no longer king. Leo has his chance. Is he going to fall into the same path that his dad did? Is he forced to do that? Is he going to change things? What are the next steps? And what does happily ever after look like after book one? Is it happily ever after? So, I love what you did there. Yeah. Thank you. First of all, and and I love that it's it's harder than you think to make the right choice and and choose the path that helps the most people because inevitably the easier path probably only benefits you. And so, and that's what everyone a lot of people in power want to do. I mean, we see it every day. It's just the way it is. Um, but I love to your point, I love when people engage with the these books on a slightly deeper level. They are totally fun and like they are snake porn and that's fine. I've never I've never like shied away from that title, but I do think that there are deeper themes there if you feel like looking at them. And I think um that's purposeful, you know, and I I think I think too like combining sex with the plot is something Well, first of all, I think like a lot of people would deny that that's the case, but it is the case. The sex in these books is all intertwined. Every single scene is moving the plot forward. Like there's something happening. It's they're having sex because of something or like for that period of time when Caspen and TM can't touch, they have to figure out how to have sex that way. Like every time that there's a sex scene, like it's a it's an interesting challenge to be like, "Okay, but why are they doing this?" There's always a reason. And and even the way that they have sex is based on power dynamics. And there's just a lot there if you want if you're willing to look for it. There is more there. Yeah. Well, speaking of uh sex scenes, um what let's talk about Apollo? Yes. Let's What was your motivation to include him? I first of all, I just wanted I wanted I was like, what if Caspen took the stick out of his ass and like had a good time? Yeah. And so I was like, we need a the series needs a bad boy. And it just didn't have that. Like Caspen is so I mean he does bad things but ultimately he to me he gives me moral energy. He like he he doesn't he's not a bad boy. I don't think anyone would really describe him that way. And neither is Leo. Leo is like this little like blonde prince who's just trying to, you know, make it. We needed like a disruptor. We needed Gabriel but a straight man for TM to have sex with. You know what I mean? And so I think I just wanted I wanted him in there cuz I wanted him to challenge Tim. Apollo is constantly pushing her. He's constantly like, I know you want this. And that sounds bad, but it's she does want it. So like it's it's he's constantly like challenging her to see more of herself and step into this new role and like push herself um in a way that like Caspen isn't quite like willing to do. And then I also just really wanted to mess with Caspen. I was like, "Let me just piss this man off." And like that's why and that's why the prequel also is so fun cuz we get the origin of their kind of problem with each other. And so there's a lot of things that are touched on in Between Two Kings that you're like, "What is that? What's that history?" That's all in the prequel. And so like I'm then writing I'm like writing two books at once and I'm like like putting in all of their like problems and arguments and like references to what's what's already happened. But like, suffice it to say, Tim gets there and these two brothers are ready to crack each other's heads open. I know. I loved Apollo so much. Do you Did you, this is just kind of like a random side question that I thought of just now, so I'm sure you probably had people obviously like alpha and beta reading and stuff for you. Um, did you feel like you got any criticism about having the two brothers interact in the way that they did? First of all, I do not have any alpha or beta readers. I just write the books and send them to my editor. That's it. Um, and my family and friends don't get them until they're done. And they all know that it is for not for criticism or feedback. It's just for here, you can have this first before anybody else. Um, so that's part one of that question. Um, so no, I didn't get any criticism for adding in the second brother because no one read it to criticize me for that. Um, but I I think like I could totally understand where that criticism would come from. And I think one thing that's kind of important to me with this series is like not playing by the rules. Like I don't care to be like, well, she has two love interests, so now she should just have two. And I think with Apollo specifically, I really wanted to explore a a different kind of connection that isn't a love connection. And it's al but it's more than a hookup. He it's it's like someone it's like a situationship also almost like it's somebody who pushes you and you're kind of chemically like addicted. You're so in it like but they are so not who you should be with. But it doesn't mean that they're kind of any less important for your growth. Tim really needed someone to get in there and just like rattle her like and that's she has these two men who are devoted to her which yay goals but but Apollo goes in there and just shuffles her up and I really think that that's that was his role. I needed him to do that. I needed someone to do that. Mhm. Entertaining. So entertaining. Yeah. He is so fun. Yeah. I'm so glad we got to know more about Apollo because that was kind of my biggest thing finishing this. I was like I I mean it was the same in um Kiss of the Bass list where I was like I want to know more about Bastion. It's like I think the point is you write really good compelling characters and I need to know everything about them all. Thank you. I do I do love like a side character having like a whole thing going on. You know what I mean? Like if there's a character I will try to give them depth. Yeah. Oh you guys Gabriel enjoy that. That's all I'll say. What a fun time. Gabriel. I love Gabriel. And I was like, how fun to have Gabriel like get in the mix because from book one, we've known he's more cut out for this than Tam is. Like he So I was just itching to get him like with the bassilisks cuz I knew he would love it. Like he would love it and they'd love him. Mhm. Yeah. So sweet. So is there any bonus content for Between Two Kings out there? So like bonus chapters or anything like that that you want to mention and where can we find it? Yes. So, um, there will be a bonus chapter in the UK version and then also a bonus chapter in the US version. Bonus chapter in the US version is Gabriel. It's Gabriel and Tim and Caspen having like a threesome moment. Basically, it's funny. Okay. And it's it's like light. It's supposed to be fun. Like obviously the end of this book is so emotionally damaging and so I wanted to like lighten things up and give you a little Gabriel at the end. Um and I always just kind of wanted uh Tim and Casp and Gabriel to go at Caspen together because they're both so obsessed with him and I was like how perfect cuz like this is the best day of Gabriel's life like to be cuz he's always loved uh Caspen. Um and then in the UK version let me think what is the bonus chapter there. Oh, the UK version has a bonus chapter from Apollo's point of view, and it's the scene where TM and Apollo meet um in the courtyard and she's like at the fountain with Caspen and they shake hand like they meet for the first time right there. It's that whole scene that night from his point of view. Okay. Um and he is he is just like a little sad sack down so bad. He loves her so much from like minute one. And I I'm obsessed. I just wanted to give Apollo like one little moment. And so that's from his point of view. It's it's when they first meet. Okay. Oh, so what about audiobook uh options or versions? What's out there for that? The audio book will be coming out. So the first book, I think it took like a year to get the audio out. That won't be the case. I'm pretty sure it's already recorded. It's coming out at the same time. So Between Two Kings audio book will come out at the same time as the book. So no one worry. Everyone can hop right into that. And I think it's everywhere. I don't think it's like Audible exclusive or anything. I think it's everywhere you you can get it. Nice. Is it any Is it dual narration? Is it one narrator? It's one narrator. It's just TM all the way through cuz it's from her POV. Um the prequel is where we're going to start to have some fun with different voices because um and I can never remember what duet or duel means. All but it'll just be whoever's POV the chapter is that's the voice it'll be it'll be read from. Um we don't have like a graphic audio where everyone has a voice or whatever. It's like, yeah, you know, all good. Sounds fun. Uh, what is one lesson that writing these books has taught you so far as an author? Oh my gosh. Um, I think I think don't take yourself too seriously. Um, because and like try not to wrap yourself up too much just in the work. You have to have a full life outside of this because it's such a fickle industry. It's such a everchanging industry that if you're completely dependent on the success, whether it's through reviews or financial or hitting a list or whatever of your books, if you're dependent on that for your happiness, you're going to be unhappy cuz it's so in flux. So, you have to just have joy in the writing itself, which I've always had. That's my I've I wrote for two decades and never earned a penny and I've loved it the whole time. So it's that's fine. So whenever you find yourself kind of getting in your head about it, you have to be like, why do I do this? It's cuz I love writing. It's not because I love any of this other crap cuz that can come and go. Like it's because I like to spend my day with bad posture over my keyboard like clacking away like making my characters hurt. Like that's what I like to do. So that's it's important to stay centered. I think that's a huge lesson is like the way I say it in my head is keep your eyes on your own paper. Just eyes on your own paper. Like try to forget the noise. Mhm. That's great advice, too. That's good advice. Yeah. We have to know this, too, and you kind of briefly touched on it, but what is one thing that you would say to anyone who reduces your work to simply quote unquote snake porn? First of all, the very first thing I would say is what's so bad about that? Yep. There's there's nothing wrong. So what if it is just snake porn? Like and like whatever. Like I I think like my first is like, "Oh, I'm sorry that I write for pleasure and like is that a crime?" No. Um but second would be that there's there's more there if you're willing to see it. And I completely understand the people who aren't willing to see it. I don't look at any of my reviews. I think I looked at like the first like 20 or 30 when I self-published Splitter Swallow and then I stopped when I realized it was kind of going somewhere. I was like, "Oh, there's going to be more than just these 30." And so I stopped. I literally have not read one since. I've never been on my good readads. Like none of my business. But I know in those first 30 that people were like this. Some were you know obviously into it and some were like this is just you know why is there so much sex? And I'm like, look, why not? I don't like I have never understood the vitrial that comes toward people who kind of write stuff like this, write erotica. Um, or especially something that's a little out of the box like monster erotica. I think like why when did we get so uptight? Why can't something just exist for pleasure? Is that so bad? Um, and also there can be nuance to it. there can be other things that are going on like you can read it for fun smooth brain energy and you can also read it and be like this makes me feel like radical I want to like go and you know what I mean like go to a protest now like great you know I I really think that it has like the ability to go both ways if if you want you can really take what you want from it yeah oh that's so well said I love that well is there any other news that you would like to touch on that we haven't gone over yet anything else about your book stores where people can find the info. Yes, Oxford Lemon is my Instagram. Really, everything is there. I don't, you know, everything's there. I have a pinned post with all my tour dates. Um, so I'll be going on tour in November. And then, let's see, after that, we'll announce what's coming next down the pipeline, which I'm really excited for. After that, in February, I'll be going to Romantic Con. So, if anyone's in LA, so if anyone's at that, I will be at that. Um, and then that's that's the next six months of my life. Really, that's what's happening. I'm also really trying to get a merch line going. Um, and by really trying, I mean I think about it a lot and I haven't sent a I haven't sent a single email to to make it happen. But now that I have some more resources like on the on the publishing end, like I am going to try to make that happen. I really want there to be like team Leo shirts, team Apollo shirts. Like I really want to get a claw necklace. I think that would be so fun. Like the little gold claw. I just think that's so cute. And I don't think everybody does jewelry. Like so it would be fun to like get something new merch wise that you don't see every day. And that's just a built-in fun little merch item that I just really want to get manufactured. So Well, and it's kind of fun too cuz like you're walking down the street and like you see someone else wearing a claw necklace, you're like Yes. or like you see another Leo girly and you just both know like Yep. Amazing. We love those moments. So special. If there's nothing else you'd like to say for now, we can wrap this up with a smasher pass. Okay, great. Okay, this time we're going to hit you with an F Mary kill. And it's going to be tricky. Okay, I think maybe maybe not. I don't know. I'm surprised sometimes when people have it clear and concise. So F Mary kill the three Dracon brothers or Dracon. Sorry, how do you pronounce it? Dracon or Dracon? I do Draen. Like it's just either great. Dragon with a K. And again, that speaks to my lack of world building and my laziness cuz I was like Draen with a K. I like it. Draen. I like that. All right. So, Caspen, Apollo, or Damon. F Mary Barry. Kill. Okay. I'm going to kill Caspen.

Um, Mary Damon. He'd be a great husband and I would just [ __ ] Apollo cuz he's amazing in bed. I mean, there you have it, guys. And if I had to do a different setup, I would also want to [ __ ] Caspen. So, I would try that out. And then I would just kill I guess I would I would not want to kill the gay brother. So, I would kill Apollo and then and then Interchangeable if you will. Interchangeable. And then I would still I think marry Damon. He would be so much He'd be the best. That's the lock in answer. Yeah, for sure. Love that. Yeah, Damon was fun. He's another one, right, where I'm like, "Oh, we know so little about his character. I want to know more." I know. He'll be in the prequel. He He's so cute and so fun. And he just like flew off the page. I was like I And when I put him and Gabriel together, I was like, I love this. Like I love this so much. They're so fun together. Yeah. I want to go drinking with them. Yeah, for real. Oh, and I love Is it Adeline? Is that how you say her? Adelaide. Mhm. Adelaide. Oh, I loved her. I love her so much, too. And like I love that they have like some sexual moments together, but then it doesn't like have to mean anything because that's just part part of that world. I love that. Like it's so just kind of neutally explored and I Yeah, I love her. Like she's just such a I just love her. She's a badass. In my mind, her and Apollo like end up together. A I like to think cuz he then goes off, they go to the sea, and I like to think that him and Adelaide I feel like she's the only girl who can really handle him. Yeah. You know. Yeah, for sure. Well, I love that she has an inside scoop on him, too, right? Like she knows what she's getting into for sure. Exactly. Exactly. Or like when they're in the Ora Boros and he's like and he's eating her out and she's like he's really good. I'm sorry.

He's really good at this. Like I can't for this. I was like that's hilarious. Like I just think them together hot. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I loved that it was like you know Tim didn't think that they would get along and then they did. I loved Yeah. And I wanted I wanted there to be a strong kind of girl power theme there. I've I've always loved in movies or shows, whatever, where the two women find out their man is cheating on them and they ditch the man and they are friends. That's that's a beautiful talk about a trope. That's a great trope. Like a great like friendship trope. And I wanted TM and Adelaide to have that. Doesn't she even say to Caspen? She's like, "We're friends now. She's a girl's girl or something." I forget what that is. And I was like, "Let me have Caspen interact with this very like modern lingo of the girls." Yeah. She was like explaining him what that meant. It was like, you know, I would always pick you, but if it was between you and her, I'd pick her. I pick her. And he's like, "Okay, I love that." And so I thought that was important. And like forget the men, like the the friendships are like what are important. Mhm. Yeah, definitely. It's amazing. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, thank you so much for coming on today and chatting it up with us. You guys, make sure if you haven't pre-ordered yet, get your pre-orders in. Get to reading. You are going to love this book so much. We know it. Thank you, Lindsay, for coming on. Make sure to follow her over at Oxford Lemon on Instagram. And you can follow us anywhere you like to list your favorite podcast, including YouTube. We're at Besties in the Books Podcast everywhere and on Instagram and Tik Tok as well. And you guys, we'll see you next Tuesday. Thank you. Thank you. [Music]