BOOK VS. MOVIE Wuthering Heights Deep Dive | "Haunt Me Then!" | Literary Classics Series

Famous last words: “We can cover Wuthering Heights in one episode. It’ll be fine.” 😂Yeah, that used to be us. Until we read it… and watched it, and joined the amazingly large and polarizing discussion about it on social media. Then it turned into at least three episodes. The mini reading guide, the deep dive book vs. movie (which is what we’re covering today), and at least one more episode responding to the HEAP of online discourse.

The 1847 gothic tragedy, Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë, and the 2026 Emerald Fennell movie adaptation have taken the world by storm, for better or for worse. And both pieces of media seem to elicit the same responses from critics: it’s either too much or not enough. Would Brontë be impressed or disgusted by this interpretation of her novel? Are there major problems with representation, point of view, and central themes? Is Wuthering Heights even a romance? Is it “smut?”

We get into all our usual commentary on the book versus movie, we rate and review them both, break down the plot in 5 sentences, plus give a snippet of insight about the 1992 movie and the audiobook production. We even drop a few fun facts and answer the important questions like smash or pass Edgar or Heathcliff. Buckle up because this one is haunting us.

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Transcript

Okay, make up your mind. Is it shallow or is it too artsy? What do people not notice this stuff? Like it's now living rentree like inside my body and it's under my skin and I can't stop thinking about it. It is a gothic film, a soul devouring novel.

Welcome to the Besties in the Books podcast. I'm Ashley. And I'm Liz. And today we're supposed to be deep diving Withering Heights by Emily Bronte. The 1847 novel originally published under a male pseudonym Ellis Bell and released in 1850 actually officially under her true name. So we went into this thinking, you know, we're going to just deep dive the book. Um, and we realized after seeing the movie, because as you guys know, we wanted to compare it to the new movie, The Emerald Fennel Withering Heights, in air quotes adaptation that just came out that we just saw a few days ago. And we realized very quickly that once we allowed ourselves to go back to the internet to start looking at the conversation that's happening around um this movie and the book specifically that we would not be able to cover it in one episode which we already know. We already figured that out. But now by starting the book by starting the book but now it has expanded even more. It's just growing like the blob. What can I say? It's snowballing. Hide your children. Hide your wives. It's growing. It's growing. Maybe indefinitely. Yeah. Okay, guys. So, so let's go back in time very slightly. Okay. We saw Not unlike Withering Heights. Not unlike Withering Heights. Okay. It is. Yeah. Truly, truly. Okay. Truly. Um, you know, no spoilers yet. So, if you're worried about, you know, spoilers, if you haven't read this book, if you're still trying to, if you've still somehow decided not to read it yet after all, first of all, you're stronger than I. Okay. Um, cuz it's out there. It's all over the place. It's the hot talk of the town, if you will. I mean, really, though. Yeah. Really? Yes, it should. So, when we started reading it, we're like, "Oh, no. We need to phone literally phone a friend. Change our normal mo for our bonus series that we're doing here." Mhm. And um you know, completely changed the map and the plan of these classics that we're deep diving since this was a first read for Liz and I. It's almost kind of comical to think now knowing what we know that we were like, "Oh, we're just going to do one episode where we just deep dive the movie and the book and we'll just be done in an hour and 20 minutes and it'll be great." Yeah. You know. Yeah. Famous last words. Well, hey, in our defense, we did it with Great Gatsby. We did. Yeah. Yeah, but we just did not know. We didn't know. You only know what you know. And luckily, we make the rules so we can make adjustments when we need to like this. So, we didn't do our traditional like if we do Twilight, we did a whole vampire lore deep dive into the history of vampires. No, no. Cuz we were we were struggling like these are different themes in these books. What do we do? Well, it naturally developed and we're like, hey, we need to bring on an expert, phone a friend for a beginners's reading guide. And that's what we did. We had Rebecca over at Novel Bakery on Instagram come over and help us out with some basics for first-time readers. So, if you missed that and you know, we're still trying to decide if you want to read that, you can do that one. It's non-spoilery. It does talk family tree because it's very useful and it's not necessarily spoilery to have that. Um, so we'll link that below and everything. I literally took the time to write out my own because we needed it. Yep, we did. So, take a look at that one because I definitely think it's useful and it's also fun as a refresher too and just like a good time cuz she goes into Emily Bronte's history as well because it also is important for the time. You know, life imitates art imitates life and all that. So, hey, 15 minutes are going to be spoiler-free as usual here and then we will start getting into like all the things. But even as far as our movie reviews go, they're still written in a spoiler-free way. So you can hear our thoughts on that and proceed with caution thereafter. But we'll warn you, of course. Yeah. So, okay. So, okay. So, then what are we going to be doing today? So, we decided that we needed to split this into two full length episodes. So, we had the reading guide mini episode and then we naively thought we were going to go into this full length episode to compare uh you know the 2026 movie to the book and that's not happening guys. Okay. So, what we decided to do is today we are going to be giving you our spoiler-free star and spice ratings for the book Mhm. Okay. 1847 novel by Emily Bronte for the uh 1992 movie that we also did watch very briefly. We'll be talking and touching on that one and then for you know the movie that we just watched the 2026 adaptation of Withering Heights as well. So we'll be giving our spoiler-free star and spice ratings for that. Then we'll be getting into our book versus movie, you know, favorite parts, least favorite parts, favorite character, least favorite character. Not unlike what we've done in the past. Um, but we're going I don't want to say we're keeping things on totally surface level, but we're not going to be diving into the really the nitty-gritty of the conversation that we're having right now because that needed its own episode. Literally, what did we see that movie now? A couple days ago. Three day, two or three days ago. And we're still like and another thing and another thing. So, we compiled as many thoughts as we could cuz we're still going to miss stuff, but like a lot of thoughts and opinions of the talk of that's, you know, the conversation that's having that's been happening, the discord, everything so that we can try to do as much justice as we can and like pose the questions out from that. This movie has created quite quite the ruffle. So quite the kurfuffle. Quite the ruffle. Yeah. No, I mean it's true. It's like, you know, we didn't want to spoil things for ourselves, so we were kind of only looking at like little bits of the online conversation and it's exploded and it's taken on a life of its own. And so, you know, as Ashley have been just hanging out while I've been down here visiting, we've been able to bounce ideas off of each other just at random times and kind of compile a list of the things that we think are the most important conversation top conversational topics that need to be had. And that doesn't mean that we're necessarily going to be giving our opinion about everything or answering these questions so much as just posing them to the group. Um, so that we can start having those conversations amongst ourselves if you're not already having them. or maybe it'll inspire you to read it or watch it um or maybe think about things a little bit differently. So that will be the part two that will come out after this. So this is going to be our basic deep dive focusing primarily on the book and the 2026 movie adaptation and then we'll move on to the in-depth conversation next time. So stick around. But before we get into all that, we just wanted to say thank you so much for being here. Seriously, thank you for taking time out of your day and your book to come hang out with us and click on this video or this podcast episode and hear what us goofballs have to say about everything. Make sure to like, follow, and subscribe everywhere you like to listen to favorite podcast, including YouTube. We're best season of the books podcast everywhere. Also Instagram and Tik Tok, a best season of the books podcast where we had some live reactions going on down there as well. So if you are walking away from this video and you're like, I really like I can't believe they didn't touch on this, this, this, we're we'll we have another one coming. So, we have a bonus to the bonus series because it's going to be next Friday, okay? We're literally filming it after this. So, it's going to be out there. It's going to be talked about and our DMs are open and you can comment and you talk. Especially if you're like, I feel like I need to talk to somebody about this. Feel free to reach out, you know. Yeah. I mean, it's proving to be fairly polarizing and so that's interesting. But I think that there's a lot of people who would probably agree with a lot of our point of views as well. Not that we want to be an echo chamber, but I think that we have some unpopular opinions. And so it'll be fun to share those for sure. For sure. Okay. So, instead of a fave and fail today, since this is boness, we are going to start with some fun facts. Fun facts. It sounds like an oxymoron. I know. I know. I know. Yeah. Um, but these are spoiler-free. They're just kind of like some fun little trivia, you know, that we've done these in the past with, you know, Hunger Games, Twilight, like all that kind of thing. Um, we thought it would be a way to just kind of get the conversation started in a less intense way. Yeah. As if it hasn't stopped since we've seen it, but or read it. It haunts me literally. I'm I'm getting that tattooed on me in two weeks. Okay. Um, all right. Here we go. So, the farmhouse quote unquote Withering Heights was inspired by top wins, a working farmhouse in Bronte's time, now a ruin in the Yorkshire moors. Whoa. And these just come from the internet, guys. So, like, take from that what you will. Fully fact checked. Um, but I was like, whoa, I kind of want to go there now. Yeah, let's go there. Let's go hang out and just on the road, feel the vibes, you know. Okay. So, I thought that was interesting. Um, the original manuscript of Withering Heights has never been found. It's another one. Spooky. Spooky, you know. Yeah. And, uh, you know, one more that maybe some of you may not know. I know some of us already knew this. Due to the masculine pseudonym Ellis Bell, um, which Withering Heights was originally published under, critics assumed it was written by a man, possibly her brother, Branwell Bronte. So, just take from that what you will. There was a good three years there before it was republished under her true name. Wow. So, a lot of rumors fly around that. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. So, those are the facts that I have for you guys today. There's a lot of lore. The lore is deep and it is vast. We are finding out. Yes. Okay. So, let's just kick it off with our star and spice rating of the book. Yeah. Start us off, Liz. This the floor is yours. I mean, literally infinity stars for me. It's a five star. I mean, it's five star for sure. Uh, I knew probably I'd say within the first 25% of this book reading it that it would be in my like top probably five if not three reads of all time. So just everything, the setting, the characters, the language, the symbolism, the intensity. Yeah. It's just in my opinion it like is it it's as close to like a perfect book for me as exists in this world. Yeah. Um and so for that reason I gave it infinity stars five stars. Um and then a zero spice. There's not any spice in this book. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll say this on top of that. Five stars. An emotion evoking tragedy expertly crafted in numerous POVs with nonlinear timelines that addresses social and political issues that were not only present at the time but is still relevant today. Still relevant to this day indeed. It's probably got to be the best review I've ever written, too. I was going to say, you're so eloquent. I don't pre I don't prewrite my reviews. I just do mine on the It's like we do the opposite. I'm like, you know, planning my other stuff, but I typically will not pre-write reviews. I don't usually either, but I don't want to keep them here forever cuz I could go on and on. So, today I actually sat down and wrote these ones. I mean, you covered it though. That was a really You're right. That was a very good review. Fly. So, it's just every it's an all-encompassing. It's a soul devouring novel. Like, I get it now. It's not that I was like a naysayer like how could you, you know, like make your thesis about the, you know, this book, um, or whatever. It's just that, you know, some these are old. These are almost 200 years old, you know. Does it stand the test of time? We were, we didn't, we did not know what we were signing up for. We're glad we did. And wow. Well, yeah, it was um I don't know that I've ever read a a classic. we'll say an air quote classic and had it take me by so much surprise. I think that's what it is. So, it's like I get why people devote their whole life to studying this book. Well, because it gets under your skin or at least it did for me. I think that's the difference. It's like, you know, we've read obviously many classics in our day, but even here on the podcast, we've covered other classics. We talked about The Great Gatsby. Obviously, we read all eight of the Anna of Green Gables books and deep dive those. This book has a way of like literally digging itself in to you. Like at least that's how I feel where it's just like it's now living rentree like inside my body and it's under my skin and I can't stop thinking about it. Yeah. You know. Um so yeah very unique in that way and just totally different than what we expected. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. What about the 19? So, you know, we try to try to get as much of the sources to the source as we can when we cover these things. So, when Liz got here, we made it a plan to watch the 1992 adaptation cuz from what we hear out of the like 50 adaptations, it comes the closest, but it does forget a couple things, but not forget, it doesn't touch on a couple things. But overall, like timelinewise, you have the narrators and everything involved, and it's told much like the book. Mhm. And it includes part one and part two. Yes. Which most adaptations do not. Yep. So what say you? What say I? I rated the 1992 adaptation a four star. Mhm. Um I think I rated it a four star because I felt like it was well done. It was almost like it kind of almost felt like watching a play a little bit to me. Yeah. Um like it wasn't in my opinion lighting the world on fire. you know what I mean? Like I wasn't like as satisfied by it um as I would have hoped, but at the same time it's it's the times, you know what I mean? It was 1992, so I feel like things were a lot like a bit different. A lot of the movies I like from back then I like because I watched them back then and now they're nostalgic. So it didn't kind of like it didn't scratch the itch for me, but it was depicted well a little it was definitely a little bit more corny like which pulled us out. You know, that's bound to happen. We were under the influence. I mean, but even if we weren't, there was a couple parts. It actually probably pulled us in more. Yeah, cuz there were some jump scares. Yeah, there were some jump scares for sure. I wasn't expecting. Um, we'll just put it after dark, guys. Yeah, After Dark. If you uh don't want any spoilers, there's a scene uh that it's a little ghostly in the beginning, we'll just say. And it was very dramatic, borderline overacted, but it was great. Um, so yeah, four stars because I feel like I appreciated that it encompassed actually both timelines. Um, and the whole story as opposed to just half the story for the most part. Um, but I didn't love it. So that's why it's not a five star. And then that was a zero spice too, right? As far as I recall. Yeah. I don't remember anything. Yeah. Just like some basic like just, you know, kissing or whatever. Yeah. PG level stuff. Um, what about you? Four stars as well. Four stars for the dust. Um, I don't feel compelled to rewatch it in my rotation. So, that's what doesn't put it at a five stars. It does very much feel like this would be the version that your teacher wheels out on the TV with the strap and he's like, "All right, you guys did the work. It's time for a little treat." And it's like, "Oh my gosh." Like, and it takes like this class 3 days to get through cuz it's pretty long. I can't believe we got through it. Um, so but with that said, it's still well done. Like it is other than there are some issue. They don't address the race issue. He is also the Heath Cliff is also cast as a white male. They do address the classism issue. So other than a couple different changes, as with any adaptation, it really much follows the timeline and the characters from the narrator that we get, Nelly and Lockwood's point of view. M um and then so it would be a good visual aid for those that maybe having a difficult time. It is good for a younger audience like cuz it's still I would say PG. I don't remember the exact thing. There's a couple like Yeah. jump scares. Um on but some of it is because it's funny because it's so you're not expecting it cuz it's an old dusty movie, you Yeah. Well, and like I said, it almost feels like you're watching a play cuz it's like now you wouldn't have to overact things to like get the impact because we have all the visuals and everything to go along with it. I almost feel like back then things were overacted like so intensely because it was like the only way to get the point across. Um and so I felt like that was a little much at times. These par these characters are at the heart dramatic dramatic intense. Yeah. Mhm. So how can you convey that in a different way? Which brings us to the 2026 movie. Mhm. Interesting. Interesting. Five stars. Yeah. What a surprise. What a I mean, honestly, it is a surprise because I feel like that's probably an unpopular opinion from people who also rated the book a five star. Um, yeah, five stars. What a treat. What a treat and a treasure for all of us if you could just open your eyeballs to see it. We'll just put it that way. Um, it has its problems which we'll discuss for sure. Uhhuh. Um, but it also has a lot to offer and without getting into any particular spoilers, it will be going into my rotation of I mean like all the time rewatches. Mhm. Um, you know, I had read a review that compared this adaptation to like a Baz Lurman adaptation of a classic like Great Gatsby or Romeo and Juliet, and I would put it right up there, baby, with those types of adaptations. Um, I appreciate it for what it is, and I just I mean, yeah, it got under my skin the same way as the book did, and I think that was a lot of the intention. Yeah. And I would give it a three spice. So, knocking my iPad down. Um, so I feel like maybe some people would disagree with that, but I feel like that's pretty accurate. If you're especially if you're comparing it to, you know, the spice scale of like what we would rate our like romanty books on, I feel like a three would be pretty spot-on. Yeah. But I will say there's no nudity. Mhm. No. No. So, there's that. It could be considered less in some eyes if you really think about it, but the the discord going around is might not people might not have uh felt that way. Yeah. Um it didn't match as much with what's being talked about I think in like Yeah. just the popular conversation. Um, I think that we went into it thinking that it would be a five spice and when we came out of it with I would I would consider it a three spice, but it depends on how you rate it. Um, just because of like the I'd say just the nature of the content, the level of um, uh, slowb burn and yearning also kind of ups it for me a little bit. Um, but yeah, so that's what I'm going to settle on and I'm happy with those ratings. I want to see it again every day of my life. Okay, Ashley, go. Yeah. So, five stars. Um, I'm really struggling to just understand how we all watch the same movie as some people. And I'm not saying like we can't disagree. Obviously, we we roast things all the time and what we like sometimes other people don't like and vice versa. That's okay. It's just some of the takeaways for me that it's just like did what did do people not notice this stuff, you know? So, for me, what I loved so much about it is its artistic quality is it is a gothic film. It is emotional like the book. It sunk its teeth into me like the book. Like, I was having the same emotional reactions as I did in the book. And it's done in a different way than a 1992 adaptation. Yeah. And I just wonder talking it out with you right now, you know, just our reviews of the two movies. It's like, can I picture a 2026 adaptation, doing it the same kind of timeline as the 1992 one and not losing people and not being this um like and not creating this widespread conversation that we are now having and having people want to go read it and pick up the book. Mhm. So, it's it's an interesting thing that maybe we'll go more into in the next episode, but just something to sit on. I mean, I think that we'll definitely be talking about it a lot more it in this episode, too, but also in the next episode. Um, you know, it just it's eliciting a lot of the same responses that the book was eliciting in the 1800s. And I don't think that's unintentional. And I think, like you said, it's poetic. Mhm. It is. It is. if you're willing to see it that way. Okay. All right. So, those are our reviews of the three media sources we chose to consume for this series. Um, obviously, you know, as Ashley said before, there's over 35 adaptations, um, film and television of Withering Heights. So, hey, the lore goes deep. If you need more, like, go to the internet and find all of the things. Yeah. Um, should we get into the five sentence summary in the spoiler section? Let's go.

It's me, Cappy. That's what I should do.

It's me. We got spoileries coming.

We just need the people to know that are tuning in for the first time that we can have both serious and comedy. Hey, just also like this book as in the movie. There was comic relief moments literally so much actually to the point where like I love it because when I was reading it at first I was like is this supposed to be funny? And then like it almost helped to watch it because you're like it is. Yeah. It's like what we were talking about. It's just like because they lived in the 1800s doesn't mean that they didn't weren't funny. They weren't trying to like be funny sometimes. Hello. Don't take it so seriously. These people wasn't birthed like in the 80s. No. Come on. Yeah. Okay. All right. Here we go. Comedy never needed to be birthed. It was there all along. Oh, I just have to preface this by saying that we went from one episode to three episodes. We understand that we cannot even cover it in three episodes. And I understand that it is very hard to cover the nuances of a novel this deep in five sentences, but we're doing our best to give you the info. Ashley's unwrapping whatever instrument. I don't know what it is over there. Okay, here we go. Withering Heights by Emily Bronte. Five sentence summary. Great. In the winter of 1801, a man named Lockwood rents a property called Thrush Cross Graange on the wild and untamed English moors about four miles away from another more rundown estate called Withering Heights owned by his landlord Heathcliffe. A brooding tormented man who he meets after traveling to the Heights and being forced to stay the night due to the unrelenting weather.

Oh my god, that's amazing. What is that? It's a It's the world's smallest violin. Yeah. And then it just plays like What is it playing? Whatever. I know, but it sounds very withering. It does. That's amazing. All right, great. White elephant. My husband accidentally got it and I was like, "Oh my gosh, that for the classics." Amazing. Wow. So, in case you guys don't know what the hell we're doing, a new musical instrument has arrived to the chat. Why do we do this? Motivation. Every time Liz gives us a sentence in the five-s sentence summary, single sound just like when you hear the chimes like this. Like Disney, you never listen to those books on tape when I did. So, we have Tiny Violin. Tiny violin enters the chat. So, I love that you just got that by happen stance also like you didn't have to go out of your way. I like how you're putting it in your neck. Kind of like figure out shoulder. Yeah, I know. I think I'll just do this. Okay, go ahead. All right. After number two. After encountering Heathcliffe, his haunted mansion, and the people he lives with, Kathy and Heritton, he insists that his housekeeper, Nelly Dean, who has known the family and lived in the area since she was a child, tell him the story of these odd people. And so begins her recollection of her time working under Mr. Ernshaw, the father to Catherine, her brother Henley, and the dark-skinned orphan boy he names Heathcliffe, who he saves from the streets, who Catherine immediately becomes attached to.

I mean, it's great. It's a vibe. It sounds like it. Ernshaw is an abusive alcoholic, but also a generous man who favors Heathcliffe. So when he dies, leaving the Grange to Henley, Henley decides to enact revenge on Heathcliffe out of jealousy, forcing him to work as a servant and becoming even more of an impossibly abusive tyrant once his wife dies, giving birth to his son, Heritton. All the while, Catherine and Heathcliffe become closer and fall more in love, knowing that their social stations and Henley's will would never allow them to be to be together. So she agrees to marry Edgar Linton, a wealthy man who just moved in at Thresh Cross Graange with his sister Isabella.

three. It's got that like morose undertone. You know, it does. It works. It works. Upon overhearing about her engagement, Heath Cliff runs away, returning three years later as an ambiguously but vastly wealthy man with the sole objective of enacting revenge on all who wronged him. He lends money to Henley, who gambles and drinks it all away, dying and allowing Heathliff to inherit Withering Heights from him. Catherine dies in childbirth, pushing Heathcliffe farther into madness. He even takes advantage of Isabella's naive crush by marrying her with the sole intent of abusing her and inheriting Threshcross Graange as well. But she flees to London where she gives birth to Heathcliff's son Linton before dying herself 13 years later, forcing Linton to move to Withering Heights to be with his father.

Every time it's good every time. For Kathy grows up with Nelly and Edgar at the Graange, unaware of the family history until one day when she goes out exploring and discovers Withering Heights and all who live there. Her father tries to warn her, but ultimately concedes when she explains her love for Linton, Heath Cliff, Heath Cliff's biological son, who Heathcliffe forces her to marry by imprisoning both she and Nelly while her father is on his deathbed, only allowing her to say goodbye to him once he is sure he will die and the Graange will also be his. Linton, who has been sickly since birth, dies soon thereafter, and Heathcliffe makes Kathy a common servant in his household until she falls in love with Heritton. And they inherit everything once Heathcliffe falls into his final bout of madness before dying.

the end. Well done. Wow. Yeah. There. I mean, there's a lot there, but I try to just give the main plot points, you know, before we dive into it. There's a lot of back and forth. There's some uh narrator shifts in there. Mhm. But I like how you're looking at the tiny violin box like, man, what else can this thing do? Yeah. I was just seeing if what it's called, the somber tune. Oh, so there we go. The accuracy. Yeah. I didn't know if there was like a name for I was like, what if it's like Withering Heights vibes on there. That would be amazing. It's like the Withering Heights little violin specifically. Amazing. Tiny violin. All right. Look at there's a little stand and everything, guys. Wow. Wow. Yeah. That way you could like put it in your little Barbie house. Can have it. Yeah. Cute. Except for him it wouldn't be a tiny violin, but that's all right. It'd be a full size kind of almost large violin. Yeah. Kind of guitarish. Okay. Well, here we go. Let's just get into it. What was your favorite book moment? Moment. How about word? Word to describe my favorite moments entirely. To sum up to sum up all the moments. All right. Madness. Take with all of them you will. Yeah. All the madness moments. All the descent into madness. all the impassioned crazyness. It's my favorite. Yeah. I mean, hey, it's a vibe. It's a tone. Um, just to build off of that, I said Heathcliffe telling Nelly about how he dug up Catherine's grave and then he gave that speech, you know, the famous speech that we've all heard a thousand billion times by now. It's not enough. It's not enough. Um, and then requested that one side of her coffin be removed so they can look upon each other even in death. Okay, that was I mean I would agree with Ashley that I love all of the all of the characters intensity and the descent of madness specifically by I mean I I would argue Catherine and Heathcliffe. Yeah. Um, I mean, and really when you think about it, freaking uh Ernshaw, Linton, I mean, it's kind of across the board there. Um, but yeah, specifically the grave was that was a pretty good one. The imagery there was amazing. Um, also I put here that I really really appreciated, you know, as the events are unfolding, that moment in time when we realize that the timeline is in fact lining up. Mhm. Um and Lockwood is realizing that the story has now come full circle and it's going on right now with the people that he met. Yeah. That was very very that was like a genius move on Bronte's part. Yeah. So cool. Like the shock that I got in 2026 from realizing that this these people this is happening right now. Yeah. Wow. Like just genius. Like in Lockwood. Yeah. that whole like connection from the beginning and to the back to the end when he comes back from it that that is what sparked Lockwood seeing Kathy's ghost is like what kind of snapped Heathcliffe out of it like and gave him that bit of closure and release that he was like okay it's time I'm ready to let it go and fade away into the night and was like a little nice to people at the end you know And like, yeah, it literally snapped him out of it. It was just like, yeah, so crazy. So, we got to like see that unfold. Wo. You guys know if you've been here a while, the full circle moments, the dual timelines, uh, uh, lining up. Mhm. There's something so satisfying in my brain about that. And so, when that clicked, I was like, "Oo, she meant that to be very impactful." And I even had typed in the fable chat. I was like, "Whoa, wait, what?" Yeah. So, the fact that she can elicit that kind of elicit that kind of emotion. Mhm. from us now with all the media that we're able to consume and have. Yeah. To still be able to shock us with that. Yeah. Top tier. It's one of those books that you're trying to guess it the whole time, but you don't know where it's going cuz it's there. There is so much happening and you have different timelines, different point of views, and you're just like, you know, at the beginning I'm thinking, oh, we're going to hear the like what tragedy happened befal it's Kathy, right? You don't know it's second generation yet. And like and he cuz her husband's dead too, right? So you're just like, "Okay, we're going to hear that." And it's like, "No, okay, no, we're going to hear this guy. Oh, this is the Heath Cliff cuz everybody's names are the same, you know?" So you're like, you know what? You like little piece names that you hear about Withering Heights, especially as the movie's coming out, you know? And um to go into it not being spoiled um is good, but it's also like you still don't know it until you know it at the same time. Like you have to read it. It's not one that you can completely that could be spoiled without going through every single thing. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, totally. Cuz it's like you have to you have to experience it like as it's unfolding. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I agree. So yeah, we love a good timeline. We love a good uh uh groming at the grave, you know, but he takes it a step further and digs her body up. Yeah. Yeah. Which is crazy. Okay. So, what about your favorite movie moment? Ooh. For me, it's the tree hands. The tree hands, but specifically from the 1992. That was your favorite movie moment from both movies? Not from both. I just wanted to make sure we gave it a shout out. It's great. We have to just describe it to you. Okay. I was a little bit shocked that Ashley chose that. So, it took my brain a second to re rethink it. Yeah. Okay. Literally, the way Ashley and I were laughing so hard because, you know, he sees this is in the 1992 version. He sees Cathy's ghost very I mean, it's literal. He sees a ghost of a woman outside the window. The tree crashes through the window, which happens in the book. There's two stick branches that come through and he grabs them like handlebars and then they turn into hands. It's almost like it push in those like 80s and '9s movies where it kind of like slowly fades into a different thing. That's when it turns into her hands and we're like Snow White a ghost, you know? Like literally that will never leave my mind. And the hysterics were like so spot on and overacting but like so funny. It's just so funny. It was it was great. So it stuck out to me. Oh yeah. I mean it was a good time. I'll talk about the new adaptation too but you go ahead. Okay. Um, well, just to take a hard right turn from that. Okay. Favorite movie moment. I just put the fingers in the mouth. The now I can follow you like a dog to the end of the world moment. Yeah, let's talk about it. Yeah, cuz there's like a lot to unpack there. I feel like this is a perfect example of that was packaged up nicely and handed to the audience like um I'd say in the marketing as a sexy scandalous moment. Mhm. Um Okay. Well, while I will say that yeah, it was enjoyable to watch for those reasons, there was a lot going on there and it was very important. What does it mean, Liz? What does it mean? What does it mean? Okay, for the people that it's not clicking for them, right? It's on the superficial level, we get it, but what does it actually mean? All right, so let's just set the scene. Sorry, I'm holding my head crazy because I feel it makes my brain want to explode. Yeah, keep it stay in there for a second. I got to explain this. Okay, so we're watching this unfold in the movie theater. We think what we're getting is like a sexy fingers in the mouth moment, right? Which, as I just said, is you do get that, but that's okay also. That's okay also. Yeah. Okay. But what we got the full picture, the whole picture is, you know, Kathy and um Heath Cliff, you know, they have this tension that's been building through their whole, you know, childhood, adolescence. They're now adults, right? Or like young, like I'd say around 18-ish, probably 18, 19, something like that. And um you know, she's kind of experienced some, you know, they haven't actually like kissed or anything like that. hasn't gone on between them, but they have this tension building. And so, basically, she runs off to, you know, have some privacy to, you know, basically self-pleasure herself. Um, you know, again, no nudity. You know what's going on. The skirts are huge. The skirts are huge. She's got a hand under there. Whatever. You can't see anything, but you know what's happening. She's off on the moors in the rocks. Whatever. Okay. Well, she's off on the moors and the rocks. That's literally what it is. Best way. Best option. The house is full. Yeah, exactly. What are you going to do? It's It's creaky and a maid could come in at any second. Okay, so she's um you know off doing that having her little time thinking about Heath Cliff because she's like I don't understand these feelings that I'm having. I'm not supposed to be having them for him but I do. And um the girl can't think straight right now. The girl can't think straight. We get it. We get it. Okay. So Heathcliffe happen, you know, he's out there looking for her cuz he's like, "Oh, we had a moment and now she's upset. He thinks she's upset. What? You know, I want to go find her." and he stumbles upon her and figures out what she's doing and is like, "Oh, okay." Like, "I don't know. Should I look away? Should I not? Like, I don't know what to do." Well, she then his he accidentally steps on a rock and makes a noise and he's like, "Crap." You know, he like had a, you know, fight, flight, or freeze moment. I don't know what to do. I know. It was kind of frozen like, "Oh no." You know, but then he kicks the rock. She hears him. She's like, "Oh no." He's like, "Okay, well, I need to make myself known." Yep. comes around, you know, and he basically, you know, she's so embarrassed. She's like, "Oh my god, I can't believe this. I can't believe you saw that. I can't like she's literally losing it, you know, and he looks at her and he's like, "There's nothing shameful about what you did." Like nothing. There's nothing wrong with what you're doing. There's nothing shameful about what you did. He says the word those words or something, you know, uncomfortable giggle like anybody would. And then he's like, "Oh, I can't believe you can make" and he's like, "No, there's nothing to be shameful about." And I felt like saying that was so important and intentional. Yeah. Because we're going off script here, right? We're going off book. Mhm. We're going we're it's still, you know, something that could be happening. But it is important to know that that wasn't intentional, not for scandal, but look at these words that are being said. Look at the full like we're zooming out and we're looking at what is being presented to the audience right now. Yeah. Yeah. and he is telling her that she doesn't need to feel bad for how she feels. That's perfectly normal and fine. And then that's when he takes her fingers and puts them in his own mouth. And that's when he says, you know, like basically now I can follow you like a dog to the end of the world. Um presumably because he has her taste and smell on him now. Um, and it's like the whole thing about like normalizing that um, from her end, but then also from his like that isn't dirty, that isn't gross, that isn't something to be ashamed about. It's normal. And he's showing her that and dstigmatizing what women are taught all growing up. Mhm. Oh, yeah. You're dirty. You're gross. That's something you like save your husband only if you grew up in purity culture. Mhm. And even then, don't do that. Yeah. So, like, let's let's all look at it as a group and see how many times Liz brought up how many times are we seeing the gender flipped from just the male just like on screen for no reason, no intention. It's just we just see it. Oh, like see that kind of action going on from a guy in like any type of like media. Yeah. All the time. Yeah. Normally we it's a lot of scandal is going on right now and it's the first time I've seen it from a women a woman you know not that it's not out there but like and then what conversation is being brought up now because of those words that are said. Mhm. It's important. Yeah. Yeah. And representation not I think the representation is important but I also think not that we need male validation in those moments but to have male validation in those moments is also representation that is important. Yep. Mhm. So looking at that scene for what it really is, I think is so important and not not taking the meaning out of it and just being like, "Ooh, it's a scandalous thing. It's a it's just about selling sex." No, no, no. If it was, that would also be fine. But I think it's important to note that that's not what all was happening. Well, the problem is when it is more, right? That's what the problem is. It's like it's not just that and then a cut cut to screen like we usually see. So that's like how it's being taken away from some viewers is that's what it what it is which would be fine if that's what it is but we have to look at it and see no this is more than because it is more that pulls it out of context. Yeah. And does it a disservice I think by pulling it out of context. Mhm. So that was my favorite movie moment. Um I was like the the gasp I gasped. You know what I mean? It's like literally it was great on all fronts. Yeah. On all fronts. Mhm. Okay. So what about your favorite? Oh my favorite movie moment also. So, for me, what really gets me what's gets me going is all the imagery and symbolism that we're being presented in this 2026 adaptation. So, I think those quiet moments that we're seeing where the where we're panned out and we're seeing, you know, Withering Heights with her red dress, like all are invoking emotion without having to overact. like we're feeling things in the quiet moments and it's all so intentional. I need to watch it again to like also fully like understand everything or looking up the symbolism cuz I'm not like a dictionary of what everything means. And we have stuff that we're going to go through in the next episode. But like for me that's what elevated and it's getting a lot of criticism for being artistic and I don't understand that. But okay. I just it's like what what what do you want from us? What do you want from us? Well, that's the thing. It's like okay, make up your mind. Is it shallow or is it too artsy? Yeah. You know, am I too much or am I not enough for you? Yeah. That's that's how this conversation feels to me. It's like very contradictory. It's almost like it it's too opulent and showy. Mhm. But then it's almost like maybe maybe it's like that for a reason. We should be looking at what's there, what's layered there. Mhm. Yeah. We got we got a lot we got a lot more to say. So we'll have to put a pin in that one. Yeah. But yeah, that for that quality that it brought to me. Yeah. So the flip side of that. Okay. So least favorite book moment shifting back to the book. Yeah. I mean, you know, who's a fan of perpetual abuse?

It's necessary. Literally, obviously, everything we talk about in our least favorites are going to be necessary in the book and the discussion. But yeah, it sucks. Sucks, dude. It sucks to see generational behavior being repeated. You know, it sucks that these people are only given these choices. Mhm. Slim pickings. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like what we were reading some reviews and just miscellaneous stuff, right? Like marrying the only person available. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Hey. Um because of the isolation and the times. Okay. So, yeah. I said I kind of said the same thing. I mean, I put I loved everything in this book and wouldn't change anything, but the parts that you know were obviously the the parts you don't like to read about or specifically whenever anyone is abusive, whether that be Earshaw or um you know, Heath Cliff himself, you know, the hanging of the dog, that was pretty brutal. Throwing the kid down the stairs, that was uh Lint or Yeah. Henley, right? Henley. Yeah. Explicitly hitting women. Yeah. um or just hitting people. Everyone was just beating each other up. Yeah. Or pulling guns on each other. Yeah. It wasn't a good time. There was a lot of dysfunction going on. So, all that stuff um was obviously uncomfy to read about, but it was extremely important to the themes of the novel. So, you couldn't remove any of it. Mhm. Um what about your least favorite movie moment from the 2026? Okay. Same same thing. Wouldn't change it, but ah okay. Eggs, skin wall. Hate those. But they're intentional and important to elicit reaction. These things, guys, that are making us uncomfortable. It's supposed to be. Yeah. It is horror. It's gothic horror without being gory. It's not always blood and guts that is horror, right? So that is like the long zoom in on the kneading of the bread and the way that whole thing is going is uncomfortable on purpose. Yeah. Yeah. The it'll stick with you too. The fact that everything is wet. Yeah. Yeah. That's not just a sexual thing. Yeah. That has to do with the weather, the overall tone, the justositions of the two estates. It has to do with a lot of things. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, yeah, it grossed me out, too. Least favorite, but also has to be there. Love it. Do not remove it. Mhm. Yep. Yeah. I took it a little bit more literally. I put the sad scene where child Heathcliffe lies and is beaten for Kathy. That was quite sad. Yeah. But also important to move the plot forward and show Yeah. the dynamics going on specifically with Heathcliffe Kathy and um you know Ernshaw who they merged Yes. in the movie into one character. So there wasn't a brother it there wasn't Henley and Earshaw there was just Earshaw in the movie. Yeah. Um so that was important to show that dynamic but didn't make me like watching it anymore. It was quite sad. Yeah. For sure. For sure. All right. What about characters? You want to just do least and fave? just put them together. Yeah. Least in least favorite most favorite in the book. We'll start with Yeah. Okay. In the book, my favorite character was Heath Cliff for sure. Mhm. Um that being said, by favorite, in air quotes, I'm classifying him as my favorite. He's the most interesting. That doesn't necessarily mean that I like him as a person. There's a difference there. Yeah. Um my least favorite book characters were Henley and Earshaw. I mean, I don't know how, you know, like they're pretty terrible. Yeah. You know, the cycle of violence you could argue, you know, didn't originate with Earshaw, but it for all intents and purposes in this story, it did. Yeah. And he passes it down. Um, and so, yeah, for that reason, those two characters were my least favorite. What about you? Yeah. Um, intentionally, again, from Emily Bronte, no one is likable. No. Hey, and no one's supposed to be. And no one's supposed to be. All of these characters are flawed just as people are, right? But special hate mail does go to Henley. So, hey, there's that. Um, and then because he and Ernshaw, they're perpetuating they're responsible for a lot of this drama as well as society. Honestly, who's who's the least favorite character for me? Society. Mhm. Just in general. That can also be a character. Mhm. Right. the what society expectations is placed upon females or people of color and classism that's going on. Least favorite character having these freaking uphill battles for everybody that that literally changes people's choices and makes them terrible people sometimes. Yeah. Right. Mhm. Okay. So, there's that favorite. Yeah. Is Kathy Katherine and Heath Cliff OG's because they're interesting. Yeah. That's what the story is about. It's their story and all everybody involved and how it affects them. But a special shout out, a special love letter to poor Edgar. Stuck through it all, you know, through thick and thin. Like, hey, chill out. Yeah. Yeah. But he had a stake in the game, too. But he did. But he did. Okay. So, let's talk about that. Least favorite most favorite movie characters. All right. Listen. Favorite movie character? Isabella, hands down. Are we the only ones? Please let us know. What a great character. What a Okay, we're talking about the movie Isabella. What a great character. What a spin. We said it. Yeah. What a spin on What a take. What a take. Okay. What do we know about Isabella from the book, Liz? We know that she's basically the sister of Edgar Linton. She moves there with him. She has, you know, a claim to this property because there are no other sons, right? That's what we know at this point. So, she also has a fair amount of wealth. Yeah. That will be bestowed upon her once she gets married. Yep. Right. Um, we know that she has a crush on Heathcliffe. That she's young and naive and hasn't experienced much outside of uh, you know, this her family's world. Yeah. Like that's what we know. Like it's very like, you know, young and naive. Who would you have a crush on? Come on, give me a break. Yeah. He flip walks in. You're not going to have a crush on him. There's no other guys even around. There's nobody around. You have to live with your brother who's overprotective and basically is like, you get to stay in the house and make crafts and have a ribbon room and a Pomeranian to hang out with and that's your life. Yeah. Unless you get lucky enough to where some guy comes along, probably old and dusty, who then you will get to get to, I put in air quotes, marry, and you should be grateful for it, and then you'll get access to your wealth and live quote unquote happily ever after. That's what we know about Isabella her whole life. And in the book, it's shocking, right? She runs off like, oh my gosh. But it's not. It's shocking in the way that like, oh, I can't believe she left this life to go with that one. But we're, you know, we have to like dissect why would somebody make that choice, right? you already have a little crush going on. There's lots of tumultuous relationships happening. Your whole life is determined for you and you're a teenage girl. Oh, good luck, you know. Yeah. Okay, look it. She has a crush on you and she's just like, h, you know, and then when he does show interest, it's like, okay, she's going to run off with him. We also have to remember through the book that we haven't really fully talked about yet today in this video that this story, these people's stories are being presented from a biased narrator and an unreliable narrator 18 years later, 20 years later, you know, so we do have to keep that in mind. So what are we seeing in the book from Isabella going off and marrying Heathcliffe? Only a little glimpse, right? because that's Catherine's lady. She's not even with um her all the time. She's not with her at the same level. She doesn't have the history with her as she does with Catherine. So, I would say personally, and I'll let you speak, if I was to write this in a different adaptation, I would see that character and the maybe plot, not plot hole, but the character development as an opportunity. What can I do with this character? Well, I think that it's like Isabella existed largely in the book to allow for Heath Cliff's revenge to have a tangible outcome. By marrying her, he got to inherit her wealth. Um, you know, once Edgar dies. Mhm. And, you know, he also got to use her as a pawn to make Catherine jealous. Yeah. Right. Okay. So, she's essentially used by Heathcliffe. and then physically abused by Heathcliffe in the book. Um, and that's is essentially why she's exists. I think the reason why we liked her character so much in the movie was because of the fact that we know so little about her that Emerald Fennel decided to say, "But what if this is what was going on?" Yeah. What if there was a lot more to her character than we knew about than the perspective of Nelly? Exactly. than the perspective that's getting told through this narrator who we're finding out now was as any narrator unreliable and showing things from her own limited perspective. So I mean I really appreciated that because in the movie she's portrayed as someone who's like I have my whole life already determined for me. She's clearly very passionate. She's immature. She's sheltered. Um she's looking for some kind of excitement in her life. That's why she, you know, becomes obsessed even with Catherine. Yeah. Before she even knows he see that. We see like her obsession with every thing that she gets exposed to cuz it's so little. Yeah. It's like you're going to grab on to it. Even with her talking about, you know, as we mentioned before, Romeo and Juliet, her passion, right? And Edgar's like, "Wow, that's enthralling." And doesn't really seem very interested in it. And she's like, "I just need some passion in my life." And everything around me so falls flat. Yeah. Right. And then Heathcliffe walks in and he's just this force. Mhm. So, she's immediately obsessed with him, too, which tracks with her character. Yeah. And then I love that the twist there is that, you know, I think she's making this arrangement work for her. Yeah. Because Heath Cliff presents her with that. He says, you know, we see that scene, which we'll talk about more in the future, of that really, really um, you know, multi-layered scene of consent going on. Yes. Where he Very important. very important where he's giving Isabella so many opportunities to deny him. He's like, "You want to proceed with this? I'm a bad guy." Yeah. You want to proceed with this? I'm going to use you to get at, Catherine. Mhm. And I think she is so desperate to feel anything in her life and be be free of these confines that keep her. Yeah. That she decides, okay, you know, she's fully informed and she's like, I'm doing it. I'm going for it. Yeah. I'm going to do it. And the way that it's portrayed in the movie is that Heath Cliff is not in fact abusing her, but giving her the option to have this transactional relationship where he essentially provides her with, we'll just say, satisfying her unique um desires. Yeah. And because he cannot write, he uses her to write letters to Catherine for him. And this is a transaction. Even when you see her and you know the the pictures and the clips that are floating around everywhere where she's on all fours on the ground with a you know chain and a collar around her neck. Heathcliffe picks up that chain and drops it on the ground and shows that it is not attached to anything and she can leave at any time. It's such a disservice the discord that's going around with that scene to completely take out of the conversation that part right and the part where they're staging it because they know or they're hoping that Catherine's on her way because he says okay here she is like sit down like get ready because he wants to make her jealous like this is this if but it is a completely um intentional transaction of willing participants of adult age, it is consent. And people are saying that we're minimizing um or that Fennel is minimizing the abuse that Isabella endures in the book by presenting her at this in this way in the movie. Like we're making light of it. Mhm. I don't believe that's what the that why that choice was made. I think that choice was made because Fennel was saying, "Okay, well maybe that's not what was going on behind the scenes." Cuz even when Nelly shows up at that door and assumes that she is being abused and says basically like, "Blink twice if you want me to save you." Isabella's like, "No, girl. I'm good." Like, "I've got a fun thing going on for myself right now. Don't mess this up." And I think that's okay to have that interpretation because a we don't really know what was going on. Mhm. And either did Nelly behind closed doors and B like what a kind of cool and interesting take when women were in such closed confined boxes in society in general, but then also with their sexuality to the point where like if an opportunity like that presented itself and you saw no other way to be able to explore that side of your personality and then just be married off to some dude and then live like that and then die, maybe you take it. Yeah. It actually gives Isabella a fair amount of agency, which I thought was really interesting. Mhm. And what would we know about a narrator um that has this bias as Nelly does seeing, hearing, trying to piece all the things together in her own mind with preconceived notions, with already feeling this way about him because of his race, because of the things that she's seen, you know, because of the intensity and making judgments that maybe weren't actually happening either. Well, and I mean, they even played it up. Heath Cliff is like, "Make it sound like you are in dire situation so that we can get Kathy to come over here to save you." They were baiting her intentionally. Yeah. And we don't know if that's what happened in the book, right? That's what I like about this because there's a possibility that's not what happened in the book. There's a possibility that it is what happened in the book. There's a million possibilities of what could have gone on behind closed doors. This is just the take that she's giving it. And I thought that was very smart. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, hey people, you don't have to agree with us, you know, but that's just a different take to consider. Mhm. So, safe to say that Isabella was also your favorite movie character. Yep. That was it. Okay. Who is your least favorite movie character?

Yeah, it's going to go to the Earshaw Hinley um combo. Yeah, same. But, you know, I was talking to Liz about this off camera because we've been talking about it all non-stop. Um, I think the seeing that kind of abuse on screen, as terrible as it is, is also important for people feeling seen. Representation for realizing, hey, this is bad. the way he can flip his personality or be so sorry that he's doing this but just continuously repeating the behavior, the abusive behavior and being an alcoholic and lashing out and abusing them and saying crappy things and then being like I feel like we what does he say? I think we got into it last night. So sorry. And what can Heath Cliff do but be like it's all good. Yeah, I don't want more of it. He'll that's what he'll do. He wants me to plate him. Everybody needs to plate this person's emotions and make sure they don't fly off the edge because he's the one with at the end of the day the power. Yeah. Yeah. The property. Yep. The property. The power. The money. Yeah. To say I got took you off their street using that over his head. You know that representation it it is it gets the conversation going. So yeah. Yeah. I would agree with you. Mhm. Um and I thought that it was a smart choice to merge those two characters for the movie purposes. Mhm. as well. Yeah. You know, Nellie is not my least favorite. I think that, you know, we'll talk about all of that with Nelly in the next episode because we don't got enough time today, but we have a lot to say about Nellie's character portrayal in the movie. Yep. Stay tuned. Okay. So, what about a trope that you loved? And I guess we'll start with the book. I actually put the same trope for the book and the movie. Okay. Yep. tragedy. Yeah. I put tragedy and obsession for both. Yep. Yeah. So, in that way, I feel like, you know, the tone was came across. It was accurate to me. Mhm. Yep. And this is coming right off of reading the book, guys. It's not like it's a distant memory for us. It's like we just read it. Yeah. All right. Well, what is the trope that you hated? Miscommunication. I mean, I mean, it was integral to this plot in the same way that it's like integral to like Romeo and Juliet, right? It's like you don't have the outcome unless you have the miscommunication. But dear lord, was that a rough one. Like guys, it's a word of caution. Miscommunication done right because it's not like everybody know like this is annoying but and also easedropping, right? Don't even That's what this is actually about. Don't ease drop, guys. It's not good. Really though, make sure you hear the whole story before you run off for 3 years. Yeah, literally 3 years. I mean, it took a long time to get places. It did. Even just to get between the two estates took a while. Yeah. Not years, but you know, long enough to where people thought that Lockwood died. Yeah. For being gone for a day. Yeah. That's so funny. That's another favorite book moment. Yeah. For real. That was hilarious. Okay. So, miscommunication is also what you put for a trope you hated. Yeah. I mean, and then also kind of like just society and I don't know how to describe it in a trope to sum up in one word or two, but like being confined to these between picking between awful choices. Mhm. You know, because of the way society is, the illusion of choice. I feel like that honestly is a pretty common theme. Choice. Yeah. Illusion of choice. That that's that's almost like what we as society right now viewing have a tendency to slip into thinking these people have the same power of decision-m with their life as we do now. You know, crossing from one estate to the other can take 7 hours, you know, and can be literally a matter of life and death depending on the weather situation. The freaking the weather and the clim like the environment like this is treacherous land they're crossing. And so I think and then not only that, but they're still grappling with English society at the time and women not being able to own property unless you inherit it and there's no other men possible, you know, and what are you going to do? What are you going to do? And you're just if you you're they are very isolated. This isn't like a town that they can just pick anyone they want and even make it a marriage of um they're using each other for their gain in life there. But this isn't there's nobody else. It's not like I have a few bachelors to pick from. Well, I mean, we see it. It's like Cath Catherine, right? She's beautiful. She's young. And in the movie, her father even says like, "Well, thank goodness that, you know, Edgar Linton came along. Otherwise, you were probably going to die a spinster." Yeah. And what in either situation can Catherine do? Heathcliffe, you know, is her heart, her love. It almost seems like and right she says it she she wouldn't have married him and she wanted to go tell him right Heathcliffe cuz she's kind of having that spiral moment with Nelly in both situations like I love him in all three yeah versions that we reading I love him and like it's almost like she needs to marinate she's venting she's talking it out hopefully gaining some advice but almost kind of coming to it on her own um but knowing that is a huge decision this isn't as simple as like I need to just follow my heart. It's I will be destitute. Well, and my whole family and my whole family. I have other people to consider like do I just follow my heart which some people just think is you know your your desires. Um and I will be out on the street. I will be a beggar. Like what what can I do with these the choices that I'm given, you know? Or I can marry Edgar and I can maybe in doing so help elevate Heath Cliff's lot in life and then my love can be transported in that way. But Edgar I mean sorry Heath Cliff this is names are hard guys. Um Heath Cliff leaves for 3 years. You don't know if he died. People thought he died. Blackwood died on the street. So it's like okay waited. I think people forget like she still waited, you know, and then she went through with it and then what is but then of course Heath Cliffs is so far gone already and unreasonable that it's like okay further descent into madness. Yeah. You know. Yeah. I Yeah. I think that taking it out of context in the and assuming that it would have been even a tiny bit easy to make the decisions that any of the women in the story had to make. Mhm. Um would is does this book and movie a huge disservice. Um because and I think that they did a little bit better of communicating that in the movie where basically it was like her dad was gambling away all of the money and literally like we can't even burn logs. Ooh, that chair for that was great, guys. Oh, you're cold. Oh, that that poor cheap bastard won't burn the fire. Let me smash apart this chair for you and burn it. Get yourself a man that'll do that and then not go insane. Um yeah, we got Can we have both? I know. I know. Um but yeah, so I feel like they did a good job of showing like if I don't marry into money. It's a I we literally compared it to Titanic yesterday. It's a Titanic situation where we will be ruined. Yeah. If you the whole responsibility to hold up this whole entire family, our estate and all of the servants and everybody literally is on your shoulders as a young woman because all you have to all we have to barter now is you as a person. Yeah. That's a huge burden to bear. And so and especially to do that in your like, you know, early 20s to have to be like, well, what am I going to do? save my whole family and our legacy or choose to follow my heart because this is how I feel. And the person that I'm also in love with, the person that I'm in love with is also a disenfranchised individual who also is going to face the same challenges that I do. Mhm. So honestly, like if you're looking at it from like an objective outsers's perspective, it almost seems like she made the right choice in marrying um Edgar because it's like, you know, in a perfect world, yeah, she could use that money to help her father and, you know, to rise them back up. She could also give some money to Heathcliffe to help him not be destitute. Maybe he could have a better life. It's just a lot to put on one person. Well, yeah, for sure. And I think we have a tendency as readers, all of us, um, to self-insert a lot. And this is what I would do. Oh, that's crazy cuz I would never. But it's like, well, but you're taking it into context of who you are now and who what society is to allow you to become who you are right now. What would you actually do if you were in that situation in the 1800s, early 1800s? It's crazy. Crazy, man. It is crazy. But it's important to not erase that. Mhm. the top three themes that we thought that we would talk about here um briefly because we'll be talking about them in depth quite a lot in the next episode um are generational trauma othering and then building off of that obviously uh you know showing how things like class, race and gender can affect everything. Yeah. literally literally. So starting with generational trauma, um obviously that is something that is not explicitly addressed in the movie and I think that's one of the reasons why there is a fair amount of discourse around um the movie not I mean it doesn't even show part two, right? It doesn't show the whole second generation because it ends with Kathy, you know, Catherine number one, Catherine number one dying. Mhm. Right. And so we don't even like she doesn't even have, you know, the baby doesn't survive. And so therefore, we can't have that second um generation. We don't ever know that Isabella and Heath Cliff produce um you know, Linton Junior. Um so what do you Yeah. What do you think about that? About them choosing to omit that second half and therefore kind of eliminating the generational trauma piece to the degree that the book includes it. Yeah. Cuz the book it's so important to go over that generational trauma and the isolation of and the way it can easily be perpetuated. Mhm. But here's the thing that I want to ask is that if it if this movie adaptation right now currently more so followed a similar timeline to the 1992 adaptation to the book, would it inspire this many people to read it? M I mean, we'll never know, but like how many people are seeing this or it's coming out, it's getting so much controversial hype that then they're being able to get some of these important themes because it rocked the boat, right, so to speak. Well, and you could even argue too that we do get a little bit of that because we do see the dynamics going on between Ernshaw and Katherine and Heathcliffe. Mhm. So we are seeing that his actions are being passed down not just to his own biological offspring but then also to you know this other child that he brings into his home that then has lasting effects into the future because it is left open-ended. We don't know what happens to Heath Cliff in the movie version. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think what I can appreciate um by the choice for this movie, by having her lose the baby, is that it doesn't leave it up for part two, part like let's milk this thing. Yeah. No, it's done. So, I appreciate that. Yeah. Because what did we learn from Wicked with being broken up in part one and two? It almost kind of fizzled. it doesn't get as impactful and the big grand thing is almost lost because there's too much disconnect between the two and I just don't know how you that's the we the movie ended and I was like what I could sit here for another 3 hours I could right you could we can have a Titanic moment here but can everybody do that and if you don't do that and you split it into two parts to actually do the full generational trauma service that it needs. Going to the movie theater, not reading the book, and you're like, all of a sudden, this is Heathcliffe. Yeah. I think that would be the biggest disconnect for most people is like, okay, cuz Ashley and I did talk about this. In order to include more of the generational trauma piece, you have two options. You're either making a Titanic level long movie um where you know, because it's not the timeline of the movie isn't told through Lockwood's perspective, right? We've lost the narrator. We've lost the narrator. So, you know, for all intents and purposes, Emerald Fennel is our narrator. Okay. So, we don't have the perspective as of Heathcliffe as a deranged individual going into it. We just see the progression of him from a child to an adult in a linear way. So, it would basically be like, you know, he gets adopted, grows up, falls in love, isn't able to, you know, see this love through. Catherine dies, then he becomes evil. Yeah. To enact revenge because of all these reasons, right? Okay. So then in the middle of the movie, you would get a snap and now you know, uh, Heath Cliffe is a completely different person and has changed because of these events. Whereas like in the book, you're going back and forth. And so you're seeing him right out of the gates as this unlikable character and then you're able to digest how he got from point A to point B. in this movie, it would be like no time to digest. All of a sudden, now he's a bad person. So, it's like we'd either have to do that in one movie or we'd have to do it in two. And if you did it in two, I think that would be even more shocking. Like you said, Yeah. We're going to wait a year and then come back and now Heath Lips's evil. Yeah. It's like it just it doesn't I don't feel like it works. I feel like what she did worked. Mhm. And a lot of adaptations have done that and didn't get as much freaking heat. Yeah. Um, but with generational trauma, what I think I feel like Catherine kind of gets more of a pass than Heathcliffe when what I do appreciate this movie has done is slow down the story, right? Cuz we're seeing um, you know, the focus is more on how they grew up. you get the them as kids, you know, and what they experience. And it's almost like a nature versus nurture situation, too. And the things that we can learn from the book as well in Gleam is that this is someone who's brought in off the streets, right, who has dealt with racism and classism and has to integrate himself and then these people are abusive and they're crazy and they're isolated and how did this how this was a villain origin story? Not everybody turns out inherently evil, right? There are people that become evil and I'm not trying to like um be a sympathizer or anything for Katherine or Heath Cliffe, but we're seeing that people are multiaceted. You know, there's a lot of dimension to people and their characters and why people do the things that they do sometimes. Sometimes it's just that they're crazy, right? But in this case, these things are building over time. And it's not just their love for each other that makes them awful people. It's it's the way that they're forced into these boxes and the generational abuse and trauma and the cycle that continues because of the societal pressures that then continue on the to the next generation because then Heathcliffe is lashing out on the children because of their loss in life and how they were placed in it and they're the personification of lost love and okay well you killed my love and now you're there like Kathy like how How many instances do we see of that in people's anecdoted stories like, "Oh, my dad hated me because my, you know, I killed my mom during childbirth," you know. Yeah. Things like things like that. So, well, I mean, even I I thought also that the movie did a good job of, as you say, slowing everything down so that we can see them as children a bit more. And you can even see how Kathy is is acting out as a child in response to her being treated this way by her father. Yeah. So it's like even though she has more societal privileges um than Heathcliffe obviously she still is very volatile even from childhood. Yes. Yeah. And they kind of tease her about it constantly in both books and movies. Emotionally unstable. Yeah. And you have to wonder how much of that is personality and then how much of that is actually reactionary to her situation. Mhm. Yeah. So I don't think that it was overlooked in the movie. I think that it was just treated differently. Yeah. Cuz it's like how can we fit as deep as it goes with the time that we're given. I think that she maximized the impact using essentially just the interactions between Ernshaw and you know for all intents and purposes his kids. Mhm. Right. Yeah. Mhm. So what about just the theme of othering in general? Do you feel like you know obviously in the book that was a huge theme? Yeah. Throughout the whole thing. Yeah. um symbolized primarily by Heathcliffe. Um what do you do you think that also the movie did that justice at all or how do you feel about that? It could have gone in deeper with othering with Heath Cliff's character of course but we do there is classism going on. there is, you know, um, be grateful what you're given and you're still kind, even though you're kind, you're adopted, you're still treated as if a servant, but you shouldn't be, nobody should be treated like a servant either, right? But then we also see it a little bit of Heathcliff's story then adapted to Nellie's story. That's important. Okay. So, I don't know how much you want to go into it now or in the next one, but I just touch on it a little bit. Yeah. So, with Nelly, you know, we're seeing at the beginning of the movie adaptation of it, cuz in in the book, Nelly is a white middle-agedish lady from England, English lady. It's one of the only jobs you can hold as a woman. Yeah. Right. But seemingly not interested and not pursuing anything. This is where she lives. This is her life. This is her livelihood, right? She's going to live and die there. This is what she does. But in the movie, it was taken that the story of Nelly and almost given a little bit of what Heathcliffe would have had to deal with. So we get the representation there. So we see at the beginning that Nelly isn't even a paid servant. She's there for free. And cuz the servants even tell her when she's sitting there stitching with her drink next to her, like they're mouththing off to each other. And then the servant says that just because your dad is a lord will never make you a lady. And what only act that you can do? So a glimpse into her personality for the movie is throw the thing off and now she has to clean it up, you know? So we're getting we're seeing that she's also stuck even though it's her choice to be there, right? But how much of I mean I quoting for people listening what kind of choice? It's her choice to be there, but what kind of choice does Nelly actually have? Mhm. And then what continues on in the story with Nelly is people are upset that she's been villainized, but I don't see it as a villain because I think all these characters are so flawed. I see what the movie did as showing a little bit of meddling in the miscommunication in the easedropping because she also needs to ensure her lot in life. In the movie, she's with this abusive alcoholic who's there literally cleaning up piss and vomit of him. He's going to die soon, too. If it continues with Heath Cliff, are we continuing the cycle? You know, am I going to help to break the cycle? Give a little nudge. Like, make sure he overhears this part. Does it make her villainous? That is so black and white to put in that box. I think it discredits what uh Fennel has done with her story and show how that was intentional to show that she was she is meant to be a lady. She's almost there as a lady and waiting like an a and a friend, a fill-in friend that's a couple years older, maybe a little bit more mature to help guide Catherine in her outburst, you know, and she needs to make sure and sometimes it's an impulsive decision cuz it's like, what am I going to do if she marries Heath? I'm going to be out on the streets, too. I'm just going to marry Edgar, you know? So, let me make let me get rid of him and I'm not making the decision for her. It's almost like again, what would you do in those times? You're someone who you even had all the makings to be able to be successful during this time period, but you're still a woman and you're still a different ethnicity than white, right? Whatever it is. Yeah. She's already at a disadvantage. So, she's trying to figure out how to secure her own not just her own station though, her own station, but also Catherine's station. She does care. She does care. You can see it. You can see the frustration and the, you know, the watching and the lurking that of like it's out of like caring as well. Well, and it would be one thing if Edgar Linton was a bad guy in either scenario. And sure, he's an opportunist just like everyone in this book, okay? Like he has something to gain from marrying Catherine as well, but as far as we know, he's not actually a bad guy. And so by pushing in her manipulative way, we'll say Catherine to, you know, marry Edgar, I wouldn't necessarily say that she even really thought she was doing anything bad. Like it'll probably be fine because then we'll be rich and he's not a bad guy. Mhm. Um so I would say that I agree with you. I think that she was doing the best she could with the situation that she had. Mhm. But I do think that it is important to note, and we'll talk about this a lot more in detail in the next episode, that it was a lot more unclear to understand in the new movie version to the degree in which Heath Cliffe would have been otherred because of the fact that he was cast as a white man. Yes. So 100%. It was very clear that he was not at the same social standing, that there was a huge wealth disparity, but it was not clear that his that he would have been at a disadvantage because of his, you know, race or ethnicity. Like that was not clear. Yeah, that's a disconnect. That's a disconnect for sure. Yeah. Um that is important to note and like we said before, we will dive into that a lot more in the next episode. Totally. Okay, so that you know that dives us right into Clay Ras. I can't even talk anymore. We give it we give it your full guff class. Class class, race, and gender. Okay, amongst other things, right? It's like, you know, uh for any of our women's studies people out there, it's the matrix of oppression. These things work together to create people's different intersectional identities. I feel like the book did this incredibly well without overtly calling it out. Yeah. Um, that's genius. Yeah. It's just it's just like telling a story and that's like you're accepting it for the way that it is and in doing so you're creating this really really rich critique on these issues. Mhm. Um, you know, we'll give a little bit more background about Emily Bronte's family in the next um episode that you guys can kind of get a little bit more context from why she might be coming um at these issues from this kind of perspective, this maybe more liberal perspective for that time period. Yeah. Um, so obviously, you know, the the book, these were major callouts. Mhm. Um, I think that's something that needs to be said specifically about the book is I think that we want to put things in tidy boxes. And one of the boxes that we've been seeing that people want to place Withering Heights into is the nonromance box. M because we want to make sure that Emily Bronte is taken seriously as a class classics author who is calling out these major societal problems. Yeah. Okay. Well, this might be an unpopular opinion, but I think we can have both. Yeah. Um I think and we'll talk about this a lot in the next episode as well. I know we keep saying that, but guys, we're already like this already going to be a little bit of a long episode, so we have to split it into two parts. Okay, here's the thing. I think what she's trying to say is that the personal is political and you cannot in fact have a romantic relationship now or at any time that exists outside of politics. I think she's saying that these issues of class, race, and gender are directly affecting our, you know, for all intents and purposes, protagonist love story, and that is relevant. Mhm. Yeah. I don't think that we have to choose. I think that it's genius to include the real life implications of class, race, and gender on a romantic relationship. Yeah, dude. It's it's important to say that we have to have romance outside of that or that we have to have um you know romance can't be in the conversation when we talk about that otherwise it somehow detracts from it. Hey, we need to stop that guys. We need to stop the conversation going of that. First of all, romance is not reading material. Like what's the better way to put it? Romance is not cannot be good literature. Yeah. that it's less than somehow. Romance is less than. Romance is Oh, it's a romance. Love stories because I I you know, throughout this entire time, two two months now that we've been experiencing Withering Heights, that's a lot of the discord. So, like the love story that you have somebody talking. So, like the love story, well, I mean, it's not a love story. Like, people get really defensive, but it is a love story and it's okay because it can be both. And even if it was only the love story, that is also okay. So it's like we need to take that let's let's remove that part where it's either defensive or why do we have such stigma against love when it's all every human being has ever been involved with? Well, and what is more impactful than a story that can efficiently articulate the fact that love cannot exist outside of these systems and these systems are what is destroying their love story. Yeah, that's extremely relevant. That's extremely relevant. Um, because if they just existed in a happy little vacuum of romance, love story, then it would be a Disney movie and they'd ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after. Well, that's not what Emily Bronte wanted. She wanted to say because of these class and race disparities and these gendered boxes that we are confined to, these people were destroyed. Yeah. Their love was destroyed. It wasn't not real. Yeah. And I think that to separate them or say that by somehow including romance or a love story within the context of these other societal issues, it detracts from those issues is silly. Yeah. That's a silly and in my opinion very shallow argument. Yeah. Mhm. And it makes us mad. Okay. It makes us mad and it's very black and white thinking. You know, the more we've sat on this, I'm just like, guys, this is a dark romance. But dark romance does not have to mean full frontal nudity, spicy scenes. Of course, it can, and that's great, but it can also, it's like we live on a spectrum. Genres are in a spectrum. This is Gothic romance. What is Gothicism, but dark? Why is it so offensive and defensive to be like, well, well, but not like a dark romance, you know? It's like, but it's okay. Like it, you know, Ashley and I talking about, you know, moments like, you know, Kathy haunting him, u moments like him digging up her grave. That's not dark romance. Yeah. Exactly. It's like, why is that wrong or reductionist to refer to it as, you know, very early on influences for the dark romance, what we would consider now to be the dark romance genre. That shouldn't be not okay to say because we can have it all because it doesn't mean it's for this case it's only a dark romance. It's also all these other things. Yeah. It's a gothic tragedy. It's a it's people wanting to put things in boxes. Like you said, it's an examination of these political problems and issues of the time. It's a response to, you know, everything that Emily Bronte is having to experience in her personal life, which we'll get into more in the next episode. And you guys heard a little bit in about the mini episode that we did. Um while also making up these characters to be affected by it. Mhm. We don't ex our relationships don't exist outside of politics and the systems that we have to live within. And that's what she's saying. Yeah. And I feel like by separating them, it's like we're really missing the point. Yeah. Mhm.

I love that we're still talking about it today. Look at this book. Still making waves. I What did what was that meme that I posted the other day? Emily Bronte still the [ __ ] with all the drama. The [ __ ] making up all the drama. Yeah, it's what a time. And that's the thing is that I have a really hard time believing that Fennel didn't want us to be having these conversations again. I just feel like it wouldn't be happening if it's happened the same way all the 35 other movie adaptations have with not a peep. Hello. Or like even really that big of like a deal in general. Hello. Hello. I've got these ghosts. Hello. How are you? Okay. Anyways, let's lighten it up for a second. I mean, obviously, revenge is a huge theme and the consumption. The power of consumption and so many different things. I mean, we see the power of consumption even in the movie with um Ernshaw. Dude, sorry. I'm just laughing because isn't that what they call tuberculosis sometimes? Oh, yeah. I think so. It's like it's got a lot of different uh meanings. That's okay, dude. I just remember the leeches, man. That's That was a great scene. It was very unsettling. And some people would be like, "Oh my gosh, it's so horrifying." Yeah. And they did that. Obviously not to that extent, maybe, but it's like, dude, they're literally leeching her blood hoping that salts her sepsis. Mhm. And then I put for fun for fun stuff cuz we always do like enemies to lovers, lovers to friends. I just put enemies. Just enemies to enemies. Just enemies all around. All around enemies. She's a life ruiner. She ruins lives. I mean, yeah, that's basically that literally about everybody. That's what they warn about um to freaking Isabella. So yeah, if you liked that little um us ranting and raving 45minut rant. Hey, just so you know, that's what the next episode's going to be about pretty much almost entirely. So buckle up for that. Um, so all right to take another hard right. Uh, what do you think about the spice? Okay, so first of all, let's talk about the spice in the book. There is the spice isn't spicy. The spice isn't spicy. But there is intense tension. Tension, yearning. Mhm. There's a lot of that going on in the book because they can't be together. Yeah. They can't be together, but they want to be together so badly. But the societal issues we've talked about are keeping them apart. Okay, this is a Romeo and Juliet situation. It's a Titanic situation. It's a Mulan Rouge situation, guys. And you're going to have a slower burn, if you will, and a more drawn out intensity when you're reading a book than a 2hour movie, you know? So, she has to figure out a way to make that same feeling that we're getting in the book in an impactful way in the movie. And what how does she do that with the slow kneading of the bread, with the the drawn out scenes, with the weather, with everything being wet, right? And then we actually are getting some spice in there. And what have we already discussed so far, right, behind the moors, that spicy scene, you know, what kind of representation that actually gave us in our lives is so profound. It shouldn't have to be, but it is. Well, let's talk about it. the difference between the spice that we saw in Withering Heights and the spice that we see in, you know, we were uh, you know, just trying to kind of like put it into perspective for Ashley's husband a little bit. We were like, you know, The Housemaid was basically spicier. Oh, yeah. I saw more stuff all around. So, okay. So, then why why are we having this conversation about this movie? Like, why are we clutching up about this movie? every Nobody was saying anything about like Game of Thrones is scandalous, but like nobody was that wasn't the discord going around it is how offensive that was and how off the book it went. Oh yeah. It's like okay we're going to take this dusty. Okay. I've read not all of the Game of Thrones books, but I did read the first four. Okay. They're dusty, guys. Okay. Like I love I think I got into maybe the quarter of the first one. I'm like I can't do this. Well, here's the thing. I love Game of Thrones. The books, I wouldn't say I love them, but they are good. But they are dusty. HBO took that and ran with it because they knew that they needed to add more things to make it, you know, to suck in most people, right? It has to have some scandal. Okay. All right. The difference is, and I think that what needs to be said about the spice in Withering Heights. Okay. So, just for the record, so we're making sure this is clear. The spice in the book, no. Okay. We don't have any explicit spice in the book. Mhm. The movie we, you know, I rated a three spice. That's up for debate, but no more than three. Yeah. And every, correct me if I'm wrong, there's no nudity. No, it's like we were joking because pretty much all you see is just Jacob Lord's back and that's not even his back. Spicy scenes with no nudity. And then there's a spicy scene. You guys have seen it if you're watching this probably, you know, with the other servants in the bar, but we still don't physically see, you know, any anatomy. Right. Well, and I think it's also really really really when we're talking about the spice specifically in the movie, the spice for both the servants and for Catherine, I think it's extremely important to say this because it makes a conversation a different one. Okay. Every scene is explicitly consensual. Mhm. and for the female gays and shows a perspective that we rarely if ever see in movies mainly for the female pleasure. Yeah, there all the females are enjoying themselves. Yep. the funny the Game of Thrones parts that I've seen and I could I couldn't even watch that guys because of the incest and everything that's happening and the spicy scenes being too intense and the murder and the beheading and the graphic horror and the gore. Okay, I this Are you kidding me? Yeah, there's going to be grape scenes all over the place, but this is the one Yeah. that we're coming for all in all. Okay, you guys, just in case we haven't put puzzled everything together, right, Heath Cliff, we see going down on her several times, but not explicitly. How many times do we see males getting it? We didn't even see that in this. That's intentional. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We saw him placing her of importance, her pleasure, importance. him explicitly while they're together telling her that he loves her multiple times.

Even, you know, in the scenes that you could argue were quote unquote degrading, the degrading is consensual and the females are enjoying it. Okay. So, Liz, what did you quote from Mean Girls? I don't remember. We need to stop like perpetuating the [ __ ] shaming and Yeah. stop calling each other [ __ ] and [ __ ] It just gives guys permission to call us [ __ ] and [ __ ] because this stuff I I was going in there like hold the headboard. It's coming. And I was like, what? This is what's getting everybody's feathers ruffled. Well, it's getting people's feathers ruffled because for once it's like we get to see romance and explicit, not even explicit, but explicit scenes where it's it's written for the female gays. That's it. That's like the easiest way to say it and put it.

There wasn't a nip to be seen. Okay. That's like the easiest way to put it. Yeah. Or my husband said, "Well, how about a big D?" Nope. Nope. Nothing. None of that. Nope. Sorry to disappoint. But really, it's like I think that it's really important to call that out because I think that's one of the things that has been bothering me the most about this. And people are saying, "Okay, well, it's because of the way that it was marketed." No. I feel like it was marketed as a sexy movie, and it is a sexy movie. So, I think that that was accurate. I think that if you go into it hoping, but it's a sexy book without having explicit scenes as well. I mean, I feel like that needs to be called out hardcore. And I feel like for those of you who haven't watched the movie yet, maybe go into it with that lens a little bit more that like watch it again. If you watch it Yeah. If you don't like it, try again. Well, because why are we so afraid to experience pleasure on the big screen when it is explicitly enjoyed by the female characters, but we are so quick to accept it when it it's not enjoyed by the female characters? What is that? That's internalized misogyny is what that is. And it bothers us a lot. Yep. Yeah. So, I think it was marketed as a sexy movie because it is. It almost feels like a big FU to like the fat cats in the boardroom of like well hey cuz we don't we don't we're spec I'm speculating right now but hey they're like we need to have some sexy scenes in there some spicy scenes. Okay fine but I'm going to write them how I want to write them. You never know. So anyways, well I'm going to write them how I'm going to write them and all the women in this are going to be having a good time and well I'm going to make the opportunity to show female pleasure on screen which like I can't name one at the top of my head but this will stick with me. Yeah, exactly. I feel like I mean there's definitely some but they're not it's like there's you know there's spicy scenes that we've seen in lots of movies where we know that the female character is having a good time. Like we'll just use the housemmaid for example. It's like we know Sydney's having a good time. Okay. Yeah. We're not doubting that. But that is not I mean everything from the way they're showing her body to the way that he is interacting with her and she's interacting with him to the way that it's shot and the tone to the way that the wife is crazy. Yeah. It's like the way it's justified. Yeah. It's an all-encompassing because you know for like Heathcliffe and Kathy are also having an affair. Yeah. And they're not justifying it though too, right? So, I feel like it's all those things that contribute to the overall tone and outcome of how the spice is perceived. And this was very intentional. Yeah. It feels different. And you know, at this point in time, we've talked to enough authors, interviewed enough authors, I think read a lot of romanty books where, you know, the spice is there to move the plot along. Mhm. For character development, to, you know, show on screen what might be very hard to convey from a text, especially one written almost 200 years ago. Yeah. Um, these are intentional things. are not just thrown in there because we need to get better ratings. And I feel like by saying that it's gratuitous, first of all, it's like, have you did you watch the same movie that we saw? That's what it feels like. But then also, it's like, no, I don't think that it was put in there to be gratuitous. I think it was put in there for all the same reasons why it would be put in there in a romanty book or, you know, a romance novel. Yeah. Because it's important to the development of the story. And how much does that add to the story? To me, a lot. because you have on paper on screen you have Catherine folding into Edgar's life and what would that mean sit pretty become she becomes primma proper she's living that life in that pretty little box and then you have Heathcliffe who wants her to be her wild self that she so often times proclaims in the book alone and we can see some of it in the movie too and we have in the movie him actually physically uplifting her. Mhm. Like literally with a freaking corset, but that is that can be symbolism that's broken down in itself. He is uplifting her and wanting her to be her true self and in turn be with him, right? Because that is her true self and it is possession, but it's at like a possess like possession possession of your true self as well that they're grappling with. So, no, I do think it is I I also agree obviously that all of that stuff is intentional to personify the things that we see in the book translated and adapted in a different way. Mhm. Well, yeah, it's everything. It's Heath Cliff crawling on the floor at her knees, you know? It's Yeah. It's the scene that we talked about where he puts his fingers in her mouth. It's like these things weren't just shock value. Yeah. Mhm. They meant something. Yeah. even obviously all the goth the gothic um scenes that we see you know the slow zoom everything is intentional with this movie and I feel like that's what is it's trippy because it's like it's described as like it's you crazy fever dream and everything like that that's how I describe the book the feelings that I had reading the book is the feelings that I had watching the movie yeah which how is that cuz that's not what happened when I watched the 1992 movie no like like I said 1992 movie was kind of like yeah it's the one your teacher would wheel in on the TV cart and have you watch on the rainy Hey, you know what I mean? It's like that's what it is. Not to say that it was bad, but this was just um you know, I have a feeling that every single time I watch this, I'm going to get something new and different out of it. I'm going to notice something else and like what a cool thing. Yeah. Yeah. We'll talk about that. More to come. More to come, guys. No pun intended. Okay. So, were you Okay, let's talk about the book first. Were you happy with the ending of the book? Did you feel like it ended the way that it needed to end? Yes, I did. Yeah. Closure. Heath Cliff dies. He joins Kathy in the graves. Yeah. I actually really Okay. I really felt like after reading that book, I'm just like this feels like cuz we talked about villain origin story. You're seeing the makings of a monster. And it feels like when Catherine officially dies, Heath Cliff goes into a state of psychosis. I'm no psychologist or anything, but of the stories that I've heard and seen, this is kind of the state. And it can last a x amount of time. It's not a standard time that psychosis can last in people. And um or something something breaks in him, right? and he snaps. And not to justify what he's done, but it can't be disregarded. And so it feels like what we talked about at the beginning of this episode when Lockwood comes and you have that Catherine resurgence of her ghost in whatever way of some of a freaking outside perspective who knows nothing seeing this. And maybe it's a dream and it's, you know, a hallucination from the diary that he read. Whatever. Nonetheless, it was able to like unbreak him to snap out of it. That's the word. Yeah. Snap him out of it. So, I loved it. I think I mean Nelly finding him in the like weird little death room that they have apparently back then. Watch movie and you'll see it. Yeah. I have to call this out because I actually had a client who has a sister who has an old house with one of these. Okay. I didn't I didn't know that this existed. Look it up. But apparently, you say death room. So apparently what they would do back then um because so many people get tuberculosis is but and you need fresh air when you have tuberculosis is they would build like a little room around the window so the people with tuberculosis could sleep in there and get fresh air but then not expose everyone else around them. And so yeah, that's what he does. He goes in there, opens the window, and fades away because he's finally able to let go of his revenge and hate and his heart and is able to just release. Yeah. Mhm. I felt like that was a great ending. That was a great ending. And you know, for any of the people out there who want to say that this is technically not a romance book because, you know, it doesn't have a happily ever after. That's also expensive to say. That's also debatable because Heritton and Kathy Jr. do, for all we know, have a happily ever after after all of this. Yeah. They inherit both estates, get married, they're in love. They wanted to be together anyways before he meddled with it. Yeah. So, hey, it actually is like maybe a little glimpse of hope, which we all need. Yeah. Exactly. So, what about uh the ending of the movie since we know that it omitted essentially all of what we want to call part two or act two? I I mean, I love that I I had a reaction Screen goes black. What? That's it? I yell. And it was a 2 hour and 15 minutee long movie, right? It's not like it was short. I want more. Yeah. Seriously, like I'll just sit there all day. I'll sit there all day. Let's do this. So, but how else would it could have been done? It can't. No. For the way it ended for this part of the story and what the choices that were made. Great. Because like I said, I actually like that I I like when Hollywood that they can't milk it for all it's worth. Yeah. Sometimes we because we complain about that, right? So this is She didn't have a baby. It's done. She didn't have a baby and neither did Heath Cliff. So how can it how can the story move on? Yeah. Yeah. So it felt like whilst I wanted the entire thing, as someone who also loved the book, if I'm not going to get that, this is the best case scenario. Yeah, I'm happy with it. It was impactful. Impactful. And if anything, which I think is kind of ironic because of the fact that Heritton and Kathy Jr. do not exist in the movie. The movie is actually less of a romance, you know what I mean, than the book, which I think is kind of funny. Um, but it does But it does have the love story. I mean, you can't really The tragedy is not lost because we took out the furthering abuse of the generations because Okay. Well, basically they're going to die. They're dead. We can assume Heath Cliff would be dead soon after. Well, and I even listened to um you know, a brief brief interview with Fennel who basically someone had asked her, "Okay, so you know what happens to Heath Cliff now? Like since the story is different, what happens in your version of Heath Cliff? And all she really said was there's no life for Heath Cliff after Yeah. It's a Romeo and Juliet situation, guys. Yeah. Which just is. It is. So, the tragedy still remains impactful for me. Yeah. Well, it's like exactly what we were talking about, right? It's like we could compare this to other great love stories. Titanic. Mhm. Mulan Rouge, right? That's horrible. And our heart gets ripped out with Jack. But we were talking about this before watching Withering Heights cuz I was just re-watching it and I'm just like, dude, as an adult watching it, I'm like, what would she do if they survived? What if the Titanic never sunk? It'd be like a cruise romance fleeing and it's like, oh no, now this puppy dog Jack wants to like, how do we make it work as a female leaving her wealth who already doesn't have wealth, right? We knowing spoiler. Sorry, it's been out for 30 years. No. Um, but like what choice does she have? Yeah. With Jack is that does she have a choice even in the 19 1912? Yeah. You know, so it's that same but it doesn't make it less of a love story. Yeah. I think is for some reason it does. Yeah. Foring Heights. What I know it's interesting because a lot of the same themes are brought up. Most like top favorite and bestselling grossing movie of all time. Titanic. The Romance. Hey. Hey. Okay, so let's just talk about just very briefly um some reviews. Okay, so I just looked up good readads. So on good readads, Withering Heights has about 2.1 million reviews. Um and it gets a 3.9 average, which I thought was a little low, but hey, out of 2.1 million, that's also a lot. Yeah. Um how many of them we found out with Gatsby are kids riding out of high school like that sucks, it's so boring. We found a lot of them in there. Yeah, that's true. Um, and then Audible. Okay, so there's a billion versions, first of all. Okay, so I went with the most popular one, which is the one that I listened to, um, because of the fact that it was free on Audible at the time. Um, narrated by Joanne Frogot, I think is how you say her name. There's 8.3 um, so like 8,300 reviews, and it gets a 4.4 average. So, and I would say I would agree. I liked the audio book. Mhm. You know, I Ashley and I were talking about it, you know, because it's just one narrator doing all the voices. I feel like she did a good job. She also made it a lot easier for us to understand a lot of the dialects, which was great. Um, but dang, so useful. I can't wait till we get a dual narration, uh, Withering Heights audiobook adaptation. Who's working on that? I know. Are they? I hope so. So nice. So good on the ears. Could we get Marggo Robbie and Jacob Aorti to do it? Why not? They're starting to do it with Wicked. Why not? Literally, that would be amazing. Um, dude. Okay. All right. Let's talk about the movie since that's a hot goss of the town. Okay. So, we're going to Rotten Tomatoes, which we're kind of learning. This is only our second time phoning a Rotten Tomato. So, what the way we're um figuring out how Rotten Tomatoes works with movie reviews is you have the tomato meter, which is critics, which we're gonna say loosely because the physical things that I was reading, like their actual written reviews, it's a little surprising to be called a critic. You know, some of some of it is like very basic generic kind of review. But that's allegedly the way Rotten Tomatoes works. Tomato Meter is critics. Popcorn Meter is the general public. So, that's where I was going to submit. and conspiracy theory. I have been trying to submit my five-star review to Withering Heights since we saw it on Rotten Tomatoes and Fandango and it is not is saying sorry we are having trouble with this. It's 3 days now. Okay. Conspiracy cuz we saw how bad of a rating we was getting and we were like what? I need to make sure like review it. I've never had an account to do this before and I'm opening up one to do it. Come on. Okay. Hey, tomato meter is saying 59%. So that's what we were basing it off of, too. 59% tomato meter. Not good. But popcorn meter, which is the general public, is 77%. So it's getting higher. So that's good. But also, I mean, I think that I didn't look up the actual statistics because I didn't want to like dive too much into this. And the movie is really new still, so we can't really like look at it too objectively. But we'll just put it this way. Regardless of what the critics may say, it's doing very well at the box office. Yeah. Yep. Oh, and of the critics, the 59% or is 305 reviews. The se the 77% A+ is um over a thousand reviews. Yeah. So, you know, we in this space have talked about it a lot with books, but obviously it translates over into movies as well. We'd like to believe that, you know, the numbers don't lie. But we find time and time again that the numbers do lie because our content Well, the numbers lie, but they I mean, the numbers don't lie, but they refuse to see them. They're like, "Oh, what numbers? What?" Yeah, exactly. We made money as they're like raking in piles, but then they refuse to make more. It Nobody liked that movie. Yeah. It's like, okay, something the math isn't mathing. Yeah. And we just feel like we need to call that out because it's like, you know, for, you know, movie release weekend, number one in the world, not just the country, number one in the world, but yet the amount of criticism that it's getting is insane. Yeah. So, I don't know. Maybe just, you know, we need to look at all these things and see it for what it is. As I said before, it's like the numbers don't lie, so why are we I guess why are we lying to ourselves about what the numbers are saying? Um, and we'll see how it does long term because we don't know yet. We don't have enough data for that. But, um, it's worth noting. Mhm. It's worth noting. It's doing well. Just like, you know, oh my god, so shocking. The Housemate did well and, oh, so shocking. The Colleen Hoover adaptations are doing well. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah. Is it shocking? Yep. It's not shocking to us. Yeah. Or probably to you. Um, but yeah. So, something to keep an eye on moving forward here. And Okay, Ash. After all is said and done, do you understand the hype around We'll say we'll say the book first. Do you understand the hype around the book? I get it now. Yeah, I get it. I'm so sorry I didn't understand it, but I'm glad that I went in for what is it off at the perfect time. That's so funny. That's hilarious. I get it now. I get it now. Yeah. No, I get it. Like I said, I get why people like focus on this in their literary major, their master's, PhD, and thesises and all that. Like, I get you guys now. I get it. I'm just the I'm just sad. Yes, I get it. Obviously, I'm obsessed. I have a tattoo scheduled. You know, it's like the I I'm just sad that it wasn't assigned to us in school. Mhm. Yeah. And that I hadn't read it until I was 37 years old. Yeah. Because I wish this was a book that I like The Great Gatsby. I wish this was a book that I had already read so many time maybe, you know, once in high school, once in college, once reread in my mid20s and now reread again. That way it could be something that could have grown with me and I could have seen how my perspective shift could have changed over the years depending on my age and experience. And it bothers me that I wasn't able to do that. I mean, obviously I can now moving forward, but it's a little bit different when you get to read something like this in adolescence. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I get the hype. Yeah. Dear Dear Lord. Dear Lord, I get the hype. Um, dear Crows, what about the hype for better or worse about the movie? Do you get it? I love it. I get it. It feels intentional. Yeah. Let's give them something to talk about. Literally. Literally. Yeah. For better or for worse, here we are. For worse. Stay tuned, guys. Next week, we got a lot more to bring you on. A lot. We dive into the things deeply, but we'll dive deeper. Like as deep as you can get deep in there. Okay. So, I have to ask. We don't normally sign off with the Smasher Pass for our many episodes, but I do need to know, Ashley. Okay. For the record. For the record, let it show. Okay. Smasher Pass, Edgar Linton. Who uh in the movie? Uh, in either um Smash. Yeah. Safe option, especially back then. Yeah, he was a nice guy. I think we need to be realistic here. Yeah. Okay. Um, smash or pass Heath Cliff.

How could I look you guys dead in the face and tell you I'm going to smash uh grumpy problematic dragon and not smash heat? You know, it's it's the intensity for me. Yeah. Even it's risky. It's risky. It's you know what you're getting. But that's the thing. We know what we're getting into. He He's not He doesn't hide who he is. That's true. You got to give him that. Yeah. Um it's like Yeah, I would agree. I say I would say yes. If I was Catherine, I don't know that I would have made any different choices unfortunately. Yeah. Because of the options that you're given. I do like the path of least resistance in life. So I can't say I wouldn't pick Edgar. Mhm. You know. Yeah. I mean, it was also very dire back then. It was what I mean. If I put myself in her shoes, you know. Yeah. But I'm saying I'm agreeing with you. Smash and smash. Let us know you guys what you say. What say you? Here. Here. Yeah. You're stronger women than we stronger woman than I to say pass on that. But hey, it's an Isabella situation. What can I say? Totally. And that was before And that was before Isabella's movie adaptation version seeing the That was before seeing the movie. Like before even having any of that visual in my head. Oh yeah, for sure. And literally just going off of the book. When I was I was listening to that part. I know where I was when I you know was was listening to the book at that point. It's with Isabella finding out she ran away with Heathcliffe and I was like what the heck that Well, yeah. It's like that meme. Like also like well like I kind of get it like angsty lady you know it's like she's not a teen but it's almost like they're the emotional level of a bunch of angsty teens cuz of where what their positioning is and what they've been exposed to. What they've been exposed to almost nothing. Three personalities ever. Well he's left for three years. What is he doing in those three years and you're Yeah. So hey so all right well you heard Rich. It's like okay great let's go. Yeah. So, do you have anything more to say about this before we close this section? We have a lot more to say in the next one. I know. I feel like I'm feeling good about this one, though. Yeah, this feels good. We're we're forgetting stuff or we're not touching or we're not going in as deep. You know, the conversation is going to stay open even probably after we're done with the next episode. Well, yeah. I was going to say it kind of seems like one of those things, too, where like after some time in Distance and some rewatches of the movie and perhaps a reread of the book, we might have to do another episode someday just to like follow up on it again. Liz is like, "Oh no, let's go, Ashley." She's like typing it into our schedule. Make sure you're rereading it by this time. See it three more times. Different different venues, you know, at home, everywhere. Yeah. It makes me want to like go find a misty rock, like a, you know, like a foggy rock area to like sit and read this, you know, guys. It's a vibe. It's good. Okay. Well, with that said, make sure you like, follow, and subscribe anywhere you like to listen favorite podcast, including YouTube. We're hanging out over there. This was such a good time for you to come down and visit me and be able to experience this all in person, be able to talk about it non-stop for 2 days, and here with you guys. So, thank you so much for taking time to listen to what we have to say and our takes on this. You might not agree on everything and that's okay, too. You know, we're open and there are different, you know, like we we'll talk about the next one. There's different perspectives of seeing it and sometimes talking it out and I'm glad the conversation is going at the end of the day for us to talk about all these things because sometimes you only know what you know and sometimes you're not looking for those things, right? Is a teenager perspective. Different people's perspectives of what they've known so far are going to take different away things away from the book and the movie. And I think that's also part of the case of what's happening right now. Yeah, for sure. So, with that said, we'll see you guys next Tuesday and Friday. Make sure you subscribe. Make sure you follow. We'll see you then. Bye bye.