“Wuthering Heights” HOT TAKES & UNPOPULAR OPINIONS ‘The Movie… IS actually THAT deep’

“We can cover Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë in one episode. It’ll be fine.” 😂Yeah, that used to be us. Until we read it… and watched it, and became aware of the insane amount of social issues this story dives into, what people had to say about that in 1847… and what they’re saying about it now. 

One episode naturally evolved into at least three episodes: the mini reading guide, the deep dive book vs. movie, and now our response to the insane amount of online discourse flying around regarding the new Emerald Fennell movie adaptation. Our “hot takes” if you will. And to be honest, there may end up being more episodes in the future because Wuthering Heights and “Wuthering Heights” are both BEASTS in their own right. 

Was Jacob Elordi the right person to cast as Heathcliff? Were race, class, and sex examined in depth? Was generational trauma, abuse and consent covered in a way that does the book justice? Is Heathcliff actually a villain in the story? Why is Nelly’s character so important in both iterations? 

We take it even further to examine why this movie is under such intense scrutiny, why others in a similar vein are not, why things created for women and by women are discredited repeatedly, and why romance is not only political, but how that may actually have been one of Emily Brontë’s goals… to encourage us to discuss and debate that very thing. 

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Transcript

the hairy Withering Heights text. Hairy. I like that you describe it as hairy. It is. It's hair. She really had to look out for herself and for Catherine to make sure that they didn't end up destitute as well. What the symbolism means with all of these shots that are placed in and Isabella's relationship is so important when talking about these things. Yeah.

Welcome back to the Besties in the Books podcast. I'm Ashley. And I'm Liz. And this is now a Withering Heights podcast. actually. So hopefully you like that. Here we are. This series has expanded to include so much. This is now our third episode. Um just to catch you guys up if you haven't been here for the journey. We had planned on doing one episode. Haha. Jokes on us. We had no idea. Summer children. We were honestly literally Ashley and I were talking about how we could have done our entire bonus series just on Withering Heights. Um, you know, if you're new here, we were like, it's gonna be so simple and easy. Just cover a few classics, keep it easy after the holidays. No, no, no. Check, check, check. Yeah. Good luck. Um, so, you know, if you're new here, obviously we are covering Withering Hot, Withering Hots, Withering. I've said it so many times. Yeah. Uh, Withering Heights by Emily Bronte. So, here we are. So, what are we doing today? because we've already done a reading guide for you guys. Mhm. Beginner's guide. Beginner's guide for the newbies, including us. It's useful for everybody, though. Brought in the expert, somebody who's read it a few times, Novel Bakery. Go follow her, Rebecca. Um, and then we did a deep dive on the book where we did compare it to the new movie that just came out um, starring Margot Robbie and Jacob Lord, just in case you haven't heard of it. Haha. You also probably went to the movies thinking I'm just going to go watch this movie and be done with it and here you are listening to this podcast episode. So like relatable, right? Yeah. And uh Yeah. And so this is the third episode where so we've deep dove the book, we compared it to the movie. We mentioned and the 1992 movie. Yeah. A little bit. We sprinkled that in there a little bit. So what are we doing today? What more should we have to say? Oh, well well after we watched the movie, we felt that it was safe to join the internet discussions because we weren't afraid of spoilers anymore. And what did we find? We found out that it uh life is a battlefield, my friends. Life is a highway. Life is a highway. I'm going to write it on all the things. And life and love is a battlefield. Love is a battlefield. Um yeah, references. So, here we are responding to all of the insane amount of conversation and critical discourse going on right now um in the bookish community specifically since that is the community we are a part of and can speak to um romance book community also and we need to respond to the conversations going on. We felt that it needed its own episode. Yeah. to address some of these uh important questions and possibly problematic or interesting or thought-provoking choices that Emerald Fennel made with her 2026 adaptation um and the very real implications of this discourse that is going on currently. Yes. Mhm. So, we've been scouring the internet, guys, and not not like it's hard because, you know, probably before you saw the movie, things were already coming out, right? It's Withering Heights. It's waiting for you around every literal and figurative corner. Not unlike Kathy's ghost. So, haunt me then, we say. Bring it on. Literally, it is though. Like, it's haunting us then. We're like living in What did you say? We started this Withering Heights journey 2 months ago and here we are still in it. Still in it. Adding more. Yeah. So, it has taken on a new meaning because of this conversation getting huge, relevant, and allconsuming. And just in case you haven't pieced it together yet, this episode, hey, it's going to be full of spoilers, guys, for everything Withering Heights book and movie universe. So, you've been warned. You've been warned. It's safe to say see you later. If you can't join it for now, save it to your playlist. Watch it later. And with that said, make sure to like, follow, and subscribe. Anywhere you like to listen to your favorite podcast, including YouTube, we're there. And I had said at the beginning, welcome back to Best Season the Bookop podcast, cuz hey, hopefully you're coming back for more. And if you're new here, you can check out the other stuff. You can hang out for as long as you like. Nobody's kicking you out at this point. We'll be outside your window scratching up sticks. Not unlike Cathy's ghost, okay? Cuz that's where we're at. So, we thank you guys. Guys, we thank you for taking time out of your day and your book to come hang out with and see what our hot takes kind of are a bit of unpopular opinions, so it seems. And some of you guys can relate and some of you feel like maybe you might not be able to say or think these things because of what the discourse is that's going on. So, we're kind of just taking this opportunity to throw our hat into the ring here because sometimes the internet is loud, right? So, we have to be loud. We have to be I mean hopefully Yeah, I mean I think that you know we've already had some people reach out and DM us just on basic uh you know small story posts that we've made um addressing these issues um that they feel seen and they're glad that uh we have what seems to be in certain situations an unpopular take. Yeah. So here that they don't feel like they can Yeah. that they can talk about, you know, or is being discussed and like hey I saw that. Did everybody miss it? because some some of that stuff is is what we'll be discussing today. And we also do want to say of course, you know, we are going to be talking about some unpopular opinions, hot takes, or maybe just like some questions we're posing to the crowd. We why we might not agree on things ever. And that's okay. Ever. We will disagree with you all the time. But like there's going to be movies and books that are so popular and everybody loves and we're going to pick apart and we're going to roast and we're going to have fun with it. And the same thing goes for things that we love. And we lo we roast and make fun of the things that we love all the time, too. And you're going to like that. You're going to not like things that we like. And it's always it's okay. But some of these things we really really especially need to address right now that are problematic in other ways that are than aren't so obsidiously. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to be talking about some serious topics, so they can be hard to discuss and we don't have all the answers. And that's the point of this is to pose the questions to you all to perhaps help look at things in a different way or you know help the conversation get opened up to begin with and maybe even you guys can come back at us and show us something that we missed too. Yeah, that's what this is about. We're open to it. Yeah. So to ease us into this convo, let's start off with a little bit of fun facts about Withering Heights. Much like the last episode, you know, got to gently ease you guys into the boiling water. So, what do you got? Well, you know, it's making all the people cringe, go nuts. It's crazy. We're seeing it everywhere. The hairy Withering Heights text. Hairy. I like that you describe it as hairy. It is. It's air, you know, but hairy just makes it seem different in the opening scene. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, here I was with Liz thinking and watching the movie and I'm like, "Oh, dude." So, I love this copy, right? Who's the artist? R Toledo. Um, of this of this copy with like the emo guy on the back, you know, Katherine and Heathcliffe, right? So, I love this copy. And when I was seeing it go on screen, I was like, "Ooh, it's kind of that vibe." And Liz was like, "Well, well, did you know that the hair in that titling with Withering Heights is Stop Animation?" And it was used w with hair from Margot Robbie and Jacob Allorti. Allegedly. Allegedly. Yeah. But it is actually an urban legend. We're going to be proponing continuing on. Yeah. Yeah. Spreading the rumor. We're going to spread. Well, yeah. Um because people were wondering if it was like, you know, if it was just AI, CGI, whatever, you know, and um it was like, no, that's legit stop animation put together in the opening sequence. And supposedly, rumor has it that yes, it's their real hair. Wow. And that is an ode to Nelly Dean twining their hair together at the end of the book. So it does tie in to the book as well. There you go. So there you go. It's exciting. I like, you know, true or not true, still cool. Yeah. This um but I do like that this edition of the book came out much before you had it long before the movie. Yeah. Yeah, I looked. I looked cuz I got it from my local bookstore, Eureka Books. And um cuz they also had Jane Air. I have Jane Air in that style as well. And I did look at the back because it has like the Eureka Books sticker and I want to say I bought it in 2024. Yeah. So it's been a while. Couple years. Yeah. Yeah. So that's cool. Yeah. But you got yours at Barnes & Noble, right? So it's like they have now it's out everywhere. Yeah. This edition was published in 2009. Oh wow. It's been out for a while if that is correct. Huh. It says this edition and wouldn't that be the entire edition? Yeah, you'd think so. Crazy. 2009 vibes. Same vibes. Mhm. Essentially, the way that this episode's going to go is we broke it down into, you know, some of the arguments we've been hearing on the internet um in the book community and just things in general um from critics of the movie, etc. And we're just going to go line by line and address them. Okay. So, we're gonna start off with the the six foot five elephant in the room that everyone has been talking about because we have to address it first. We have to talk about it, get it out in the open because quite frankly, it will likely um influence the rest of our conversation. Mhm. Okay. So, the casting of Jacob Allerty, a white man Mhm. as Heath Cliff's character. Okay. So, was this an intentional choice by the director and the producers or was this an oversight, a blind spot, an intentionally racist decision?

Okay. Okay. I feel like that's the question that we're posing. Also, it's important to note that um Edgar Linton on the flip side of this um was cast as uh Shazad Latif who I might be saying these names wrong. I apologize in advance if that is the case who is of Pakistani descent and he uh was explicitly a white person um in the book as well. So, we had some casting of different races obviously than what is true to the text. We'll talk a little bit more about Nellie's character in a future little segment as well. So, we're not overlooking that. We just haven't gotten to it yet. Okay. So, these are the questions that we're posing to the group. We're going to give you guys some info, some background info about um Emerald Fennel herself and then also about Emily Bronte, uh her life and her family. um just to kind of try to create like a full picture of perhaps why these choices were made or just trying to fill in some blanks because really we don't know, right? No one knows. All of us can only speculate at this point. Yep. With those decisions that were made. So, we're going to throw in some speculative thoughts here. Just open up the combo. Yeah. Okay. So, basics about Emerald Fennel as a person slash, you know, filmmaker. Okay. She's an English actress, filmmaker, and writer. Her parents are jewelry designer, and a writer. So, she comes from a what, from what I could tell, just doing basic research, fairly wealthy background. She went to Oxford University. She got a degree in English literature. Um, something else that I thought was kind of important to bring to the conversation that I actually knew prior to this going into it, um, because I was a big fan of this movie is, um, she wrote and directed a movie called Promising Young Woman in 2020 that I didn't realize this part, but she actually won best original screenplay, Academy Award for. And Margot Robbie helped to produce that as well, which I also did not know. Mhm. Um, that's a horror thriller with strong feminist themes and tones that actually holds a 90% from critics on Rotten Tomatoes. So interesting.

Yeah, guys. Yeah. So, I definitely went into watching Withering Heights, you know, Withering Heights in quotations with a certain idea about where uh Emerald Funnel might be coming from, having seen this previous worksh. Okay. just to talk a little bit about uh Emily Bronte in relation to her exposure to what we think is really important, the slave trade and her dad being involved in the abolitionist movement. This seems like it would have greatly influenced her writing style and the themes that she was trying to get into with Withering Heights. So Emily Bronte's father, the Reverend Patrick Bronte, was a known abolitionist who supported um the complete abolition of the slave trade in Britain at the time. He was also a progressive supporting Catholic emancipation, opposing capital punishment, and campaigning for public health improvements. So, this is kind of like the environment that she was growing up in. But we do know also, not unlike maybe some characters that she was writing about, that he perhaps wasn't the nicest guy. Yeah. So, we have those two things kind of coinciding at the same time. Mhm. Some other important things to note. So, Withering Heights was published in 1847. So by that time slavery had been abolished in the British Empire but it was still in existence in the United States and other parts of the world. Um so the British slave trade was abolished in 1807. Um and it was abolished in the British colonies in 1834. So we're looking at the book came out in 1847 in the early Victorian era but it was set earlier with a story beginning around 1771 to 1773. So, the backstory of the character Heathcliffe is deeply connected to Liverpool, which is at that time a major slave trading port. Mhm. Okay. So, we know that. Um, so I mean, you can piece one and two together, but when Emily Bronte published this book, slavery was still very much a topic of public debate and was still occurring in the United States until 1865. Mhm. So, themes of the novel. Scholars would argue that Withering Heights reflects the brutal, hierarchical, and often violent nature of slave slaveolding societies. So, these are all important tie-ins. Um, 100%. So, the reason why we felt like it was really important obviously to note all of these things was because this was probably very relevant to the perspective of writing her characters. Yeah, totally. Yep. Especially one like Heath Cliffe, right? Okay. So, to not even read the between the lines, but go to the text. What do we know about Heathcliffe? So, I just pulled some like quotes about how he's described. Um, he's described as a dark-kinned these are actual direct quotes, okay? A dark-skinned gypsy in aspect in dress and manners a gentleman. So, that's from Lockwood's perspective in chapter 4. He's called a gypsy brat by Nelly. Although the usage of the term gypsy is still frequently encountered within the English language, it has become increasingly offensive because of the negative stereotypes associated with that term. It is sometimes used as a neutral or positive self-descriptor, but is recommended that those who are not self-escript as Roma use the term Roma instead of gypsy. Uh by Mr. Linton, a little Lascar, I think that's how you say that. The usage of the word Lasasker is considered historically loaded and often negative term originally referring to South Asian, Arab or Eastern African sailors of European ships. While it began as a functional job title, it became derogatory and often time used as a slur to enforce racial, religious, and class differences by characterizing sailors as inferior, dirty, and cheap labor. Or an American or Spanish castaway. He's described as dark-kinned with black eyes. So, there's many descriptions of him. So, for anyone who doesn't know, I just Googled it. Lascar refers to Indian or Southeast Asian sailors suggesting South Asian heritage. Mhm. So, Gypsy highlights dark skin um and foreigness but in a 19th century context. Um it's alluded to that he comes from Liverpool where he gets picked up. Um and if he was brought from Liverpool that was a hub for the slave trade. Yeah. Um suggesting that he was of African descent. Um but these are all what we think to be like intentionally ambiguous Yeah. descriptions by Emily Bronte. So, there's the information. Yeah. We feel like that's all we can really do like as people who haven't studied this for, you know, 10,000 years to try to just like piece together between the lines. Well, I think people have. It's been up for debate and discussion since the book was published. Mh. And I think the best takeaway from the book text is that it is intentionally ambiguous to maybe adjust it and fit it into the time and social issues that are going on with the person that's reading it. Yeah. To stand the test of time essentially. Totally. And not that it doesn't now at all, but like Yeah. Just to to be able to adapt it. Different countries having different types of ethnicities in slavery. So that can be seen across all different continents. Mhm. So it's like, you know, I think with it pretty much everyone could agree that Heathcliffe is supposed to represent the other, whatever that means. And what you're saying is depending on the time in history, the country, the geographical location, that can mean many different things. Yeah. And she probably saw that. I'm guessing obviously we're speculating but from based off of the history that you've told us of Emily's experience, Emily Bronte's experience is that it can fit so many different people of color. Yeah. So, do we necessarily think that casting Jacob Lordy as a white person was the right choice? Probably not. No. Um, but that being said, we also don't know exactly who or like what he was meant to look like specifically because this is a time in history when to have anything other than white skin. And there's a speculation going around from the book and the movie that that he was actually fathered by Ernshaw, which would make him a mixed race. Mhm. And historically and currently we know how that can also go for people. But still it goes back to is he the right character to cast for that the right person to cast for that character. I think that I mean by casting him I mean this is like a it's a two-sided thing because it's like by casting a lordy you are erasing the descriptions of a dark-skinned gypsy. Yes. or you know it's dark skin, black eyes like yeah we're definitely erasing that aspect from the film. Mhm. Which can be seen as very irresponsible. Yeah. But then at the same time we've talked about now the discussions that are arising because of the fact that that was changed. Yeah. Mhm. So, you know, take without what you will. And then also, I think it is important to note too, like what Ashley was saying before, that there are not just if he was fathered by Earshaw in secret, um, but I mean, he could be of mixed race in general, which might make it cuz we talked about how he leaves to gain his, you know, ambiguous. Nobody knows how he gains his wealth. No. So, we don't know how he gains his wealth, but he comes back. So, we're sitting here wondering, okay, once he leaves their immediate area and is able to go outside, what if he is of mixed race and he's white passing enough? Yeah. To gain wealth elsewhere and then be able to bring it back, even though in certain areas he might be discriminated against. It's it's complicated. It's complicated. And that would be the only way to make sense in my brain, you know, for that to have happened. It's like how can he get it if not leaving the places that in close proximity that people know his history even if he's white passing so it doesn't matter how far you rise above you can't you're stuck so if he goes outside and comes back in so there's a lot of different there's a lot it's not it's not black and white easy to like point out I think it's a lot to discuss and I think that yeah I mean the fact that was ass really brings up this issue of race and representation in a really strong way. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. You know, I feel like in a way that you know, obviously Emily Bronte wanted it to be addressed back then and we're talk we're having that discussion right now. Yeah. Yes. Mhm. So that's also important. It's important to get the people talking too. So I just the question that you posed earlier exactly we say again. Was Emerald Fennel intentionally casting aortity to encourage racial discussion? Is that too presumptuous to think? Was it just a straightup oversight? Was it fanfic casting? Was it a blind spot? It's hard to believe it's a blind spot. With this with this going through so many hands with this going through so many hands with what we just heard of her background with how many people were involved in the project that were also involved in other projects that have such heavy themes. Mhm. With people we know going through the sensitivity screening. Like all of those things, it feels like it has to be intentional. And again, maybe I'm like reading too much into it. Maybe it is as simple as it was a racist decision. Mhm. Cuz it could be totally but it's but it's getting us talking and I do think that that's important. Mhm. Whether that was intentional or not, it remains to be seen. We wouldn't know we wouldn't know the answer to all of these questions we're discussing right now without going back in time and hearing the decisions that were made behind closed doors. Right. Mhm. Yeah. But I think that you know largely having the discussion about it allows this text to be translated in different ways through time and that's exactly what's happening. Yeah. For better or for worse. Yeah. So we have Edgar Linton as well on the flip side. So he is of Pakistani descent. His name is Shazid Latif. So he is the one who plays Edgar Linton. So why was that choice then made? So Edgar Linton is, you know, in the movie a fabrics dealer who made his fortune in velvets, you know, so we have the drama that, you know, and beautiful art that comes within that, but that choice also seems intentional, right? Well, yeah. I mean, because it's a direct like Edgar is described as being blonde and blue-eyed in the book. Yeah. So that seems obviously intentional as well. Mhm. Otherwise, if they wanted to stick true to the text, they would have cast Heath Cliff with darker skin and they would have cast Edgar as white with blue eyes and blonde hair. Yeah. It's like I don't know. I have a hard time believing that that wasn't for a reason. Mhm. Yeah. You know, and so is it something like the way Heath Cliff is portrayed as such a villain? Mhm. taking the time to remove the person of color of being the villain and allowing Edgar Linton to be a little bit of the the night and shining armor even though it's not like that's not that's diluting down the story line cuz that's not what it is but like you know he has the riches he has the comfortability he's safe he's the safe option as opposed to what dialogue and kind of perception was going on of a person of color like through Nelly's's of a brute as they call him. But to play devil's advocate then in this case, you know, by casting Jacob Allerti as Heathcliffe in this movie adaptation that does not portray him as the abusive brute, then you are you are making him the quote unquote white knight. Yeah. But it's still a lot of people took it away as just a villain though. Yeah. I mean then it's then it's like you it's a hard that's a hard situation in general. Yeah. So yeah, it's something to think about. We don't like we said we don't have the answers. It's just like things that we need to be discussing. Why was the why were these choices made? Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We don't know. So speaking of guys, we are seeing a specific point of view with this movie adaptation or lack thereof. M so in the books just to remind you we are getting a lot of this is almost hearsay from Nelly and 18 years later roughly so did Fennel eliminate Lockwood and Nelly as the narrators and why okay well yes it was eliminated and why are we is this adaptation of this story more of an unbias other than of course the screenwriters and Fennel's point of view, but like is this possibly a take on what could the story have really been without the inherent bias that is going on of the people around him? People are going to form opinions and she did and the and she admittedly is so in the book already formed an opinion on Heathcliffe the very moment. It's natural. That's human nature. And then of course with all the socio and economical issues of the time having those opinions. So, is this maybe perhaps the part of the love story and what maybe transpired? Because Nelly, also an unreliable narrator, might manipulate the story a little bit to make sure she's looking good and is in good light with this Lockwood guy as she's telling the story. Mhm. So, well, and Lockwood is going to impart his own biases on it as well. Like, that's the thing is like you can't not do that. And so by taking Lockwood and Nelly away as the narrators, we're removing those inherent biases, but then Fennel is, you know, basically imparting her own biases onto the nar the narration of the story as well because it's she's filling in the blanks. She's saying this is what could have gone on. This is maybe the unfiltered version. Yeah. So, I mean, I've heard it said like on some reels and things like that that Emerald Fennel actually became the Nelly or the Lockwood, right? Yeah. Because that's intentionally done differently than the book. Mhm. Because the book is actually profound and impactful and groundbreaking. It wasn't the first multiple point of views and timeline hopping by any means, but it was one of the biggest ones, the biggest impact that why we are reading Withering Heights to this day, even in inside reading in school, is because the way that she does the dual types of narration and point of view switching and timeline hopping is expertly done where it's like, well, why wouldn't you put that in the movie? Mhm. Because it's already been done a lot. 35 adaptations, guys. Yeah. So, we just have to ask ourselves like, okay, what was the point of that? Why are we not seeing things through Nelly's's eyes necessarily? Mhm. Or Lockwood's perspective necessarily. Like those were also choices. Yeah. You know, it's also important to say like we were talking about a little a while ago. So, in the book, Nelly is an English white woman. Mhm. who in the movie is portrayed by the Vietnamese American actress Hongcha. Again, sorry if I'm mispronouncing that. So again, you know, we've been hearing arguments that, okay, so the only woman of color that's cast in this movie is now being portrayed as a quote unquote villain. Mhm. You know, if you listen to our previous deep dive episode, neither of us agree with the fact that she's actually a villain. Yeah. We think that Nelly was doing the best that she could with her station in life and her options presented to her being in this crazy situation. And at the end of the day, she really had to look out for herself and for Catherine to make sure that they didn't end up destitute as well, which is the same thing Catherine did, which is the same thing a lot of characters are doing and people in that time, right? But again, we have to ask the question like why are we getting these um changes in race? Mhm. Why was that done? Why are we getting these flippings? Yeah. Mhm. So, these are just questions that we find ourselves having to ask when we're like watching it and critically trying to like pick that apart. So Nelly as a character for me within this movie, I actually felt like her story was extremely profound and important to tell and I think a lot of it is getting brushed over from the stuff that I'm hearing about just kind of villainizing that character. And first of all, all the characters are problematic and tragic and flawed and it's kind of like it's people, right? It's people. So what station are they given in life like you said? So telling her story, it's so maybe it's not getting taken away because it's so it's she's not on screen. It doesn't happen very much. It's very it's quick, but it's there and it's intentional like you said. We see Nelly sitting in that room with the other people that are working for the house and she's saying basically it's like kind of all mixed in, right? She's saying that she's there as a friend, a companion for Catherine. She's not paid. Her father was a lord who passed away getting like room and board. Yeah. And then the servant says, "Well, just because your father's a lord does not make you a lady, you know." And all she could do in that moment to fight against this was knock over the glass, you know. Yeah. So, it's it sets us up for later. So, we have that knowing and we need to try to remember it knowing when she makes the decision. And it feels like that could be ex that's extremely like that could have be what that could very quite possibly be what happened if this was like a real story of Nelly kind of twisting the narrative a little bit by being like oh no I knew Heath Cliff was like there and I'm like oh no don't say more you know but instead having her be like oh no Catherine's spiraling I'm taking care of this drunkard I might be on the streets too what am I going do. She's not even being paid in the movie, you know, the movie version. So, it's like, what am I going to do? I'm gonna just be like, let me just see if he Let me just get rid of him for a minute or let me like drop him down a pig. Kind of like she did with the servant. Drop her down a pig. Not necessarily making the decision for Catherine at the end of the day. They're all adults in this, but like, yeah, it's it's hard for me to believe that she's a villain. And I feel like that was an opportunity by the directors and screenwriters to make sure that that female story is told. Mhm. Yeah. It made her like a more well-rounded character. I thought it gave her like more behind the scenes of what might have been happening in her own life. And it addresses racism and classism and the female um lot in life lot in life station at that point in time. Now, does that does that give it a pass for taking away that voice for Heathcliffe? No, it doesn't give it a pass. Yeah. You know, yeah, but it is a different way to still address some of these issues that's it's being overlooked. And I think that's the part that makes me confused on some of the stuff that I'm seeing and just the villainization of Nelly, not even by the movie. The movie I don't think is trying to vis villainize her when we have if she just like if she just it would be a different case if she just was being evil. Mhm. Like we would know the difference but we see her story even though it's small glimpses it's still there and we see her love of Catherine. You were even wondering if maybe Nelly maybe is in love with Catherine too. Oh no. And I think it's like it doesn't it doesn't matter here or there, but at the end of the day, it's just a you feel for this person that you're connected with. Well, it could also be a possibility. I think that is important to know cuz we don't really know. Yeah. Like it could be a friendship playing out. It could be literally just a selfish self-preservation thing. Yeah. Or like a you dumb bee, you're not going to go live a life of luxury. Oh no, your golden shoes fit too tight. Right. Like as you say. Yeah. Um Yeah. Or it could be a love interest thing, but that wouldn't have been allowed or, you know, you wouldn't be able to be your true self. Um, so it could be a number of different things. I felt like I appreciated what they did with her character. I feel like it could be misinterpreted as like mean girl behavior, but that's to completely separate her behavior from the social context in which it exists. Yeah. And we were given that piece of her story. Yeah. Clear as day. Right on the screen. Yeah. We're seeing we're see we're seeing it. Even though it's quick, it's we're seeing it. There's a there's a reason why at one point there was a bit of a montage of following Nelly around. Oh, totally, totally. Totally. You know what I mean? Mhm. So, to just to just um break it down to they cast her and made her a villain, that seems oversimplified. Oversimplified. Mhm. It's forgetting and negating the entire part of that that was intentionally placed in there. I think what it did was make Okay, so you know, I didn't really it didn't really click in my head that Nelly could be um a biased unreliable narrator until we were talking with Rebecca over at Novel Bakery during our um bonus reading guide mini episode series or mini episode because I kind of just it was my first read so I was kind of just like taking it at face value like this is the information we're getting. this is what's happening. And then once she said that, something kind of clicked for me and I was like, okay, I think by making it obvious that the person telling the story in the book had her own agenda, life, circumstances, etc. She made it very obvious that that could have swayed the narration in the book. Yeah. What what Fennel did. Yeah. And I don't feel like that made Nelly a villain. I feel like it made Nelly a person. Yes. And that is you can't tell a story as a person without bringing your own biases and opinion to the table, even if you're doing your absolute best not to. And I think that that's what came across really well in the movie. And to make her a villain villain is to oversimplify it. Yeah. I think Yeah. It's putting people's in boxes. Yeah. Exactly. It's like Yeah. And I feel like it was really useful because maybe now if someone goes into reading the book, they'll go into it with that perspective of like, oh no, Nelliey's a person like with her own agenda. She's a person with her own history. Her telling the story doesn't necessarily mean that everything that she's saying is true. That doesn't mean she's lying. But truth is a subjective thing, and we all know that. Yeah. what we're seeing on screen could very well be what is actually happening and this is somebody's version of the story because you got to remember Nelly's is not there experience every single moment even between Heath Cliff and Catherine not by a long shot she's piecing it together and also we have the perspective of Nelly in the book like I know we're mostly talking about the movie today but like you have the perspective of Nelly think about it as a whole we're getting told her perspective from her you know 18 plus years later after Heath Cliff is descended into madness and right before he dies. Mhm. Like we're seeing the craziest of the craziest. So how much does time I gave Liz this Liz this example you find out your neighbor's a serial killer and then everything that they've ever done has been oh everything you wondered about oh I wonder if that dead cat that I saw on the street was them you know not just like some random like cat death you know. So it's hindsight is 2020. Yeah. And it's kind of Yeah. hindsight's 2020 kind of like trying to justify and like oh I always knew even if you didn't. So like he's become this terrible person. So to her relaying this this story to Lockwood it's kind of it's manipulating a little bit and it's it does it has a bias effect on you even with other characters and people in her life like Isabella, like Ernshaw, like literally anybody she talks about. There's biases placed on every single person because we as people, not one of us has everybody that thinks that's the where there there's a different version of us walking around in everybody's heads. Yeah. What you know of yourself and who you are, someone down the street is going to think you're a totally different person than that. They don't know you all the way as you can know yourself. Mhm. So without even knowing yourself, you're going to miss things too. That's the thing, you know. Um I think also it's like we have to remember that, you know, Nelly, whether in the book or the movie, probably to a certain degree, is like thinking about Catherine, like you have the privilege to mess up your own life because of love. Yeah. And so that must to some degree be frustrating, whether it's a class issue, a race issue, a combination of both. Yeah. Um she's to me that's what I you know I sit there and I feel like that was made pretty obvious in the movie where it's like girl you have everything being h like yeah okay you had a bit of a hard childhood for sure because obviously your dad issues and then the book dad and brother issues right this is your escape hatch this is your stable ticket out and you're going to squander it for what could be perceived as a silly reason yeah totally and so I feel That's also like how could you not bring that bias to the table? Yeah. Mhm. So, I don't think that makes her a villain. I think talking this out with you right now cuz we haven't even like talked about that part of it. Doing that intentionally with Nellie's character on screen helped that make it more clear than the book could because it's it's unless you're talking it out with people. If you're reading this book alone by yourself, you might not come to the conclusion that she's an unreliable narrator and has her own inherent bias and her own her own back to watch out for. Mhm. Totally. And then seeing it on the screen the way that it did. To me, that's why it's like, oh, it's not a villain. Oh, I I can see how the story line could have been manipulated. Mhm. And maybe this is the version that could have been a little more accurate. Mhm. Possibly. It's someone's rendition. Obviously, like we said, the screenwriter's bias, but nonetheless, a different take. Mhm. Why she chose to cast the person she did? That's still up in the air. Yeah. Yeah. Unknown. Yep. So, okay, just building off of that, do we feel like Fennel miss the major themes that Bronte was discussing? So, did she overlook class, race, you know, obviously, uh, specifically like women's issues having to do with, um, you know, their freedoms, we can say, or, you know, ability to move around society. Um, do you feel like she missed generational trauma by skipping the second part of, you know, the book? Um, class. No, I don't think she missed that. No, that was pretty much drilled into every aspect of this movie. Like I I mean even just like I told Ashley right when the movie started, I was just like the difference between the two estates. Mhm. That within itself. Yeah. That was you know it's like Ashley and I talked a lot about how that reminded us a lot of the Great Gatsby. Yeah. Like the juxtaposition of the two estates was done very well. Yeah. I thought so the class I think that the class uh discussion was pretty right in your face. Yeah, I do think without casting him as a race that has dealt with oppression, it would probably be hard for someone not familiar with the text to not understand why Heath Cliff can't do what he needs to do as a person. Like why can't he do better for himself? Like why can't he rise above his class if he's a white man? Yeah. If he's like an able-bodied, tall, good-looking white guy, like why can't he make a life for himself? Especially under Earernhaw, right? Who isn't ruined until later. Yeah. Mhm. He desents into servitude essentially. But other than that, it's hard. I think it would be hard for somebody to grasp that fully. Well, it adds a completely different um yeah, it adds a completely different element to the story, especially if you're coming if you're if it's existing within this world where they live very nearby, you know, a slave trading port, for example, right? And like the like this is a huge part of society that they are living in and dealing with day in and day out. It does take a huge element. Yeah, it does take a huge element out. Does she put it back in and place it on other characters? Yes. The question is is that enough or is it responsible? Is it responsible? Yeah. So I think you know class was Yeah. I mean hammered into every aspect of this movie. I feel like race not enough. not enough. Um, I think sex or you know the females uh plight if you will, the feminist theory aspect of this movie was done extremely well. I think that also after hearing you describe it the way it is for young promising women being of heavy feminist themes. Promising young woman. Uhhuh. Yeah. Sorry. Promising young woman. Um, it makes me feel like, yeah, she's taking the feminist themes within Withering Heights and making sure those stories are told through different characters as well. So, like what was the experience of someone of Asian descent who was a female of the time? What would their experience be like? We'll talk about Isabella and her experience in her lot that she's been given in life. And so I think that is more of the focus for that director which doesn't make it right because so I feel like that needs to be said like you can I feel like that's why it's just so it's almost kind of like frustrating to have this conversation because I feel like it's like you're nailing the feminist piece in my opinion. Mhm. You're nailing the class piece, but those things do not exist outside of race. Yeah. So, by choosing picking and choosing the racial discussion that you're having, it's like what's going on there? Well, why can't we have both? Why can't we have it all? Yeah, we could. Yeah. But that was a deliberate choice not to it. Like, that's what we're like that's what we're saying at the beginning. It's like it has to be a deliberate choice. And why? And does that even make it okay? Yeah. Or is it just uh an irresponsible choice regardless? Do we take it? Is it a rage baiting choice? Yeah. Yeah. You know, like I kind of I don't remember if I discussed it in the beginning, the very first episode we did with the deep dive, but like kind of like our hope, not for the race rage baiting, but like just in general the the kind of hype that we saw with the trailer being all sex and things like that. Are they rage baiting us? And then it's going to be like so well done, right? So that kind of situation with people. No. There's, you know, that's how you get clout on the internet, right? You rage bait people. So, is that what they're doing? But yeah, it's hard to know if these choices weren't made intentionally to have so that we would have these discussions or to have these discussions or to rile the people up. Yeah. Exactly. And we take the bait. Mhm. But it's also good. And even if they didn't Here's here's here's the thing. Even if they didn't intentionally get us to talk about it and discuss these themes because they're important, we did. So, haha, right? You know what I'm saying? Like, even if they didn't intend it and they just want to make the people upset cuz that's possible. But hey, we're talking about it and that's why we all need to come together as a group and discuss these things as best that we can with what we're given. Yeah. Yeah. Or it's like, did they just cast Jacob Lordy because they knew that it was all the movie big time. Yeah. And so it's it's just like such a a bigger every everything we're talking about goes so big and so much harder than we can even have time to discuss or education to discuss honestly. But it's like okay because of all of the drama. How many people are reading it for the first time? Not because of the drama. We were already going to do it because it was going to be a movie. So it's pre-drama. But nonetheless, how many of us read it because oh my gosh, it's what all the people are talking about. Yeah. And this movie is coming out. How cool. Let's read it because so many movies just get put out, brushed under the rug, people move on. That our book adaptations. This one is really getting people talking. So, how many people are picking up a book for the first time since high school, you know, or rereading it again. Good luck. First one since high school. I know. Tough tough crowd. Um but because it's it's it's a doozy. but how important all these themes are. And if maybe I can hope that that at least is the um an intention to get the people to read more and pick it up to inspire people because we kind of touched really close on if they made this movie adaptation exactly as like the 1992 is but upgraded it, you know, a little bit, follow the same timeline, would it be getting the people going? Would it be inspiring people to read it? Because it's talked about on such a grand scale. reasons for better or worse though, you know. Yeah. So, that's something that's just it's just something to think about. Crazy. Well, it's just it's a provocative text that's in many ways left open to interpretation intentionally by the author. And that's what the movie is doing. And that's what the movie's doing. Interesting. Interesting. So, it's a both and situation. And we could see we could see how it's problematic but yet in other ways positive because it does get people having conversations and reading the book and diving deeper into it. Mhm. Yeah. So I guess our answer to that would be you know yes class and sex was highly examined. Race not as much as it should have been and that is a flaw. Yeah for sure. the generational trauma bit. We talked about this a little bit in the last episode. Um, but we'll reiterate that here. I mean, I think, and I think that you think too, that it was actually handled pretty well given the relationship between Ernshaw and Kathy and Heathcliffe without having to delve into the second generation of people. Um, because we just I don't know that we had the time. Yeah. To do that justice. Yeah. Exactly. So, did it do a general generational trauma justice? No, not fully. But it's really in the second half that'll get you of the book. Mhm. So, well, yeah. And how would that translate into film? I feel like Yeah, you could do it for sure. Yeah. But it would be completely it would be a different adaptation. It would be completely different thing. It would have to be a very long movie or it' have to be two parts. You'd have to handle it very differently. Yeah. I thought that the generational trauma bit was made to be pretty obvious with how things went on between Kathy and her dad. Yeah. Kathy and Heath or um Heath Cliff and because they emerged as characters. Yeah, exactly. Mhm. Yeah. I felt like that made a whole lot of sense to me. Kind of like obviously it's obvious what would happen. So, I feel like a lot of the a lot of the symbolism, a lot of the kind of physical manifestation of a lot of the themes that Bronte was trying to convey, Emerald Fennel did do really well. Yeah. But I feel like we're seeing it being looked over time and time again as like frivolous. Frivolous. Grotesque for no reason. Yeah. Meaningless. Meaningless. um shock value. Um I saw a lot of people compare it to like Watt Pad and there's another word. There's another there's another platform, but basically they're just Watt Pad photos. Like they're just like they're a teenage girl's wet dream. like all these things, all these fever dreams that are crazy, but when you slow down and think about what the symbolism means with all of these shots that are placed in, it'll blow your mind, you know? Well, it's like even just we included just a few in here to talk about. Um like the skin room for example. Yeah, that I hate. But it's intentional and I wouldn't take it out. And why is the skin room there, Liz? It's there to make to basically symbolize Kathy being trapped in her own skin, guys. Mhm. Think it through. Think it through. It's stuff like that that I think um by saying that the stuff exists for no reason. It's just there for shock value is to take so much like to take all the meaning out of it. That's crazy. And it's okay if it's both, but you can't say it's only one when it's both. Yeah. One of my favorites I didn't actually include here, but I'll just like chime in with it. What were the ceilings? Okay, so for any of you guys, we posted on our Instagram the Heathcliff Heath Cliff Hunch TM. Okay, do would if we mentioned it, would you know what it meant? Most people didn't know what it meant. Okay. Well, we've got Jacob Lordy. He's 6'5. They purposefully made the ceilings low. Mhm. In Withering Heights, the actual buildings. Yeah. So that whenever Heath Cliff was inside, he would have to be hunched over and it would make him look like he was out of place, unwanted, like the house itself was rejecting him. These are choices that aren't made out of nowhere for no reason. Yeah. Like how cool if you're willing to sit there and like pick these things apart. Mhm. Yep. Even just all the symbolism between the two houses themselves, all of the colors that you were pointing out, the color red, the end meant to invoke uh emotion and that's what we are. And this is a gothic novel and a gothic film. And I think that's what people can forget with the shocking visuals that we see with the wet kneading of the bread. You know, it's meant to look like something else and then it zooms out and it's it's quiet and it's creepy and it's meant to bring an element of horror that isn't blood and gore and heads getting ripped off. And it does and it stays with you like the skin room, like the like so many things like a spicy scene that we see that's a little bit more different than we would normally see in films, right? So, it's meant to stick with you and it's meant to create a feeling. The moors Hello, the wind, the wetness everywhere. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. It's crazy. Okay. So, going off of that, like hopefully, you know, if you haven't seen the movie yet and you're just you're listening to this because you're curious what we have to say about it. Um, before you go into it, you know, a lot of the criticism that we're hearing in the book community right now is that this movie is basically being reduced to a movie just about sex or as Ashley said before, quote unquote, a teenage girl's wet dream. It's being infantilized. Okay, I put here like much media that's created by or for women often is. Um, is this accurate or not? If not, is this damaging? Why is it inherently bad if that's quote all it is? Okay, so I think we should start there. So, like, first of all, if all this movie was was sex for the female gays or quote unquote a teenage girl's wet dream, what's so bad about that? Yeah. Mhm. Okay. Okay. So, I think we need to demig this. We as a society, we as a society need to first and foremost destigmatize that. There's not a promise. There's not a problem with romance. There's not a problem with spicy stuff for the female gays. Mm- We don't have It's using as a dig. It's being used as a complaint when it's like that's those are the things though that's not a problem, but it is a problem when that's not what it only is. Mhm. That's what we're having a problem with. So, say problem again. Say problem. Problem. I have I have a lot of problems. So, yeah. Is there anything wrong with a movie that like I wish we'd make more movies that are sex for the female gays just for the gratuitous enjoyment of it? Right. I think the part that people are stuck on is that that's not necessarily what Emily Bronte was going for. Right. Okay. Well, I would have to agree as someone who read the book, right? There's no spicy scenes in the book. Yeah. Um, do I think it was inappropriate to add them? No. And I think that all of them existed for a reason. Yeah. For very important reasons. Mhm. So I personally think and I think that you probably agree with me that by reducing it down reducing this adaptation that Emerald Fennel and Margot Robbie put together largely right to basically say like this is just it's for looks it's for show it's for shock value it's for sex would be it's that's doing the same thing that we hate so much that is done all the time to high fantasy written by women when romance is inserted. Yep. That is not done to male authors. Yep. And that's how this feels. This is how it feels. It feels gross and icky and I don't like how that feels. Hey guys, so this is some of the stuff that I saw before we actually went and saw it ourselves. This movie is fanfic. This is interpretation based off just a feeling. Is that accurate? Well, hey, I'm here to tell you that is not what I took from it. So, I was so confused. We went into the movie thinking, "Oh, everybody's saying this is just fanfic." So, if that's what it is, if that's what it is, great. Sign us up. Let's go. Hey, it's not trying to be something else. It's saying what it is. That's But that's not what the movie people are saying. That's what people who saw the movie are saying, right? Mhm. And when I go into it, and that wasn't at all what I took away, we've already talked about so many important things already just in the time we've had you guys here, and that doesn't even touch everything yet, right? This doesn't feel like just fanfic. This feels like so much more. Like I said, every shot is intentional. Everything is invoking something in you and causing such a ruckus. Well, and why if we decide, you know, for anyone who watched our other episode, you know, we rated it a five the movie a five star and a three spice. Three. A three spice. That's spicy, but it's not over the top by any means. It's nothing that we, you know, would be shocked by at all. And so by adding that and especially by adding it through the the lens of the female gaze where everything is consensual, everything is um for essentially like whoever that female is in that scene, her pleasure. Why is it under such scrutiny now? Like why are we scrutinizing it now? Why do we as a why as a book community are we criticizing this choice as if we can't have a movie that is deep and introspective and an interesting interpretation of the original text that also has sex and romance in it. Mhm. It feels and it also was like and another thing lot of pearl clutching for no nudity literally literally I was that's what was shocking to me is the lack thereof. Yeah. Yeah. I thought this was going to be an escapade if you know what I mean you know like here we go buckle up. Yeah. What? Yeah. I was like what? That's it? And it's also very female empowerment and it's actually female pleasure. And oh wow, I haven't seen that on the big screen barely ever. Yeah. What? Guys, we got to stop doing this to each other. We should be able to have it all. All right, Ashley. Well, we're going to take a deep dive into this next section here um that needs to be talked about because it's been getting a particularly uh immense amount of hate online. M um yeah and I feel like it needs to be said. Okay. So let's discuss women's pleasure, sexual representation and consent, why this is important and why the relationship with Isabella in particular, Heath Cliff and Isabella's relationship is so important when talking about these things. Yeah. Where to begin? Exactly. So where to begin? We we I feel like we've already dove in at this point to women's pleasure and the representation with that. Yeah, for sure. So, let's talk about consent and um specifically let's talk about Isabella. Okay. We're all seeing the dog on the chain, you know, kind of it's been turned into a million memes. Yeah. At this point. Mhm. For better or worse, right? We're seeing a lot of hot takes out there that they destroyed Isabella's character from the book. They ruined her. They or did she would never have chose that for her life. Well, let's talk about it. or they um you know this adaptation, the movie adaptation did her a disservice by essentially taking what was portrayed in the book as an abusive relationship and making light of it or um basically like portraying it in a way where she like, you know, quote unquote asks for her own abuse. And I think that, you know, Ashley and I talked a little bit about this in our last episode where we did the deep dive. Um, but we're of the mind at this point that in the book version, we know so little about Isabella's character aside from the fact that she's essentially confined to not just her, you know, station in life as a woman. Um, but also, you know, by her brother and what he expects of her. Mhm. You know, she has um a stake in inheriting a significant amount of wealth because at this point um you know, Edgar doesn't have any children, so there's that. Um and she pretty much knows, this is all from the book, she pretty much knows what the rest of her life is probably going to look like. She lives in this, you know, pretty little box, this dollhouse with, you know, her brother who it's kind of assumed will probably marry her off to someone at some point in time. Um, and that's a life she'll live. And I liked and I think that you liked also the take that you know Emerald Fennel had on Isabella's character. Like maybe we didn't see the whole story. Mhm. Or you know maybe she at least in that version was fully aware that she was going to engage in a transactional relationship with Heathcliffe that would benefit her as well. Mhm. So it gave her a certain amount of agency in a situation that in the book version she didn't have and a sense of free will. Mhm. Mhm. For sure. Way. Yeah. So that's what we know also from the book. Um and also what we know from the book is that you know these people are very emotionally stunted. So maybe being an adult but having the mindset of angsty teenagers running around and spiting each other and revenging each other and you know as one would miss little Isabella gets a little crushy crush on Heathcliffe right and is made fun and poked at and like you know Jo but who in most times in adolescence even if it's an adolescent mind or a young adult is going to have a bit of rebellion for Sure. Pretty pretty typical I would say have rebellion but also just like okay so you're isolated your brother this is the movie version okay you're isolated your brother is like stay in the house enjoy your ribbon room play with your Pomeranian dog and like you know she obviously is a very impassioned individual you know we see the whole scene of her really getting into and talking about Romeo and Juliet and really trying to share that with her brother who's like, okay, yeah, he's stonefaced and like, yeah, just kind of not a great companion to be, you know, releasing some of that passion onto. Yeah. Like, he doesn't really care. Like, he's listening maybe, but like isn't contributing at all to the conversation. You can see she's very passionate. For better or for worse, she's passionate about that. She, you know, becomes obsessed with Catherine when she moves in because she gets a new friend, right? She's making her dolls and she made her the scrapbook and she's just commemorating their friendship and getting really super attached and you can see in her personality. So, what we do know is that she's a very impassioned individual, but she's also someone who, you know, is likely very emotionally stunted, has not experienced life outside of the confines of a very privileged life and a very sheltered life. And I think it's really interesting that in the movie adaptation, you know, we're seeing her in a completely different light that perhaps we weren't able to see through Nelly's's eyes in the book version. Mhm. Cuz we don't know. Yeah. And I say like emotionally stunted and you know I'm making a lot of I'm throwing a lot of assumptions also on to her as someone who is older like Nelly who is like oh just like a young girl you know what I mean even if it's a young adult right just like just following whatever and passions that she gets herself into. So, but we I like that adaptation from the movie where like let's see what could that have actually looked like if you take away the bias from Nellie's perspective of seeing her as a younger sibling to Edgar. Well, and what do we know like based on the movie version? We know all these things that we've already said, but we also know that it kind of seems a little bit like Isabella is a little obsessed with that star cross lovers story with that Romeo and Juliet tragedy with that really impassioned um but toxic relationship, right? So, who's to say that, you know, given the opportunity to engage in something like that with Heath Cliffe, she wouldn't go for it if for any other reason, just to try to experience something like that for herself before she's married off to some old dusty dude probably of not her choosing, right? And so, I don't know. I I like that take. And you know, as we went into this section talking about um specifically consent, Heath Cliffe there, I mean, there's a very specific intentional scene all about consent with Isabella. Mhm. Multiple multiple times and done that such a way. Yeah. I mean, and then and the conversation continues on. Mhm. Not it doesn't just stop there that one evening. It continues on. Yeah. Right. He's upfront about who he is, what his expectations are, how he will never love her like Catherine, how he will not be able to give her anything beyond, you know, maybe surface level physical affection. And he repeatedly asks her for her consent, knowing full well what she is getting into, and she chooses to agree. In both the book and the movie, it is extremely obvious that everybody knows that Katherine and Heathcliffe are obsessed with each other, including totally Isabella herself in both scenarios and her brother. Mhm. And I think that's important and that is something that we actually wrote down in this section as well that Edgar is acting very similarly. However, his character is not seen as as problematic. Mhm. It's like he's engaging in this marriage with Catherine, knowing full well that she is in love with Heathcliffe. Mhm. Yes. But he's gaining something from it, much like Isabella is. Yeah. But Edgar is not getting any hate for doing that, for marrying her anyways, even though it's obvious that they're in love. For continuing, for allowing an affair to go on for a while until he finally has had enough in the book, too. Yeah. Yeah. In both scenarios. Yeah. So, you know, Isabella is painted as this little damsel in distress that was taken and that could be the case in the book, but it could also not be. So, like what would that look like? Cuz we are given limited information from Nelly's's point of view cuz Nelly isn't around her a lot. Well, from Nelly's's point of view, the same way. She runs off to go marry Heathcliffe. Yeah. And everybody also knows it's an act of revenge. You think Isabella doesn't know that he's trying to get to Catherine? You think she's that delusional? I think that takes away and diminishes her as a human with brains. Yeah, totally. And eyes. Brains and eyes. Yeah. I mean, literally, she knows. And she still chooses to go off and do that. Probably partially because she has a crush on Heath Cliff, but probably partially because she's trying to break out of all of these boxes that she foresees having to live her entire life within. Yeah. The difference, why would she do that? Even in the book, why would she do that? These women have to think about their choices. I mean, as all people do, but we sometimes with the selfinsertion forget that what would we also do if we were in as a shoes book or movie? Yeah. So, I think the big difference, you know, that um people are getting hung up on at least in the book community discussion is that obviously in the book version, Heath Cliff then abuses her, at least from and through the eyes of Nelly. Mhm. Okay. which obviously feeds into the fact that he is a v he basically is a villain at that point in the story. Okay. All right. So, we accept that in the book version. We read it. We accept that she is being abused. She's trying to escape him. Eventually, she flees to London where she has his son, right? And we move on from there. Okay. But I feel like what's interesting about the m movie adaptation is Emerald Fennel is saying, "Well, what if that's not what happened?" Yeah. What if Heathcliffe presents her with this opportunity because he is trying to seek revenge a little bit. Okay, so we Okay, sure. She agrees to it knowing full well what she's getting into. And then you fast forward to the scene where, you know, she they're showing her on all fours with the collar around her neck and the chain. And you know, as we talked about or may have mentioned earlier, they're hoping to stage that. Yeah. They're staging it for Catherine. Yeah, Heath Cliff's. They're just chilling, thinking that she's ready to come soon. So, and Isabella's just chilling, acting like a dog, having a good time. It's some fun in her life. Give me a break. You got your own. Well, you could tell that she's got a little bit of like a kinky side, you know? It's like a little you a little silly silly time. Whatever. And I think she is It's an opportunistic situation for both of them. Um to the point where I mean Heath Cliffe again, the imagery of him grabbing the end of that chain and throwing it on the floor to show Nelly that literally she can leave anytime she wants. She's not a prisoner here. I'm not holding her here. This is in the movie version obviously. Um I think that's really important. And we see that this is all part of a plan that they've orchestrated where he is not able to write. And so basically the transaction is you help me write letters to try to convince Katherine that your life here is so dire that she will come here so that I can see her and in return I will fulfill some of your physical fantasies and it seems like it's working for both of them honestly. You know I think people raising over some of that that are taking that away that are you know not looking at the full picture. I don't think that you know Fennel was trying to make light of a potentially abusive situation. And I think that she was trying to rewrite her character to give her a bit more agency in that situation, right? And not even I don't I would even dare say not even real rewrite, but like expand upon what we know and with a different perspective. Totally. Cuz what would you know? Okay. If you were in Nelly's shoes with the book, right? You come over, you see something and you already have this jaded version of somebody in your mind because of all of your deep ingrained racist beliefs or classist beliefs or whatever it is because she doesn't like him from the beginning. And you're putting two and two together as a woman in this situation. And you're, you know, you want to protect people and you want to protect your woman and your your your female friends as well, you know. So, you are obviously going to think that, especially because I mean it's taboo even today. Yeah. Let alone in the 1800s. She couldn't possibly be wanting this. Mhm. You know, so, but what if she did? I think that's the thing. What if she did? But also, the importance of the representation and the way the consent was done is such a good way to do it. Mhm. I I feel okay. It's It's wild that like I knew something was going on with that before seeing the movie. So, I just expected with all these little like things that I saw and little rumors about what was going on. I just expected it to be so crazy and like wow. And then like to see him with the whole consent scene, to see him with dropping the chain, like to see them say like okay, Catherine's here, like get in position, you know? And it's Nelly and they're like, "Oh, okay. Well, no." and like this isn't what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. It was clear as day what was going on with that to me. I mean, going back to the dollhouse, I just realized when you were talking the symbolism in that. Mhm. It's her life is a dollhouse. Like she's a little doll and she knows what to expect every day. So people are like, "What the heck?" So with all these dolls and the doll houses and stuff, it's like, well, it's extremely symbolic. Yeah, for sure. She knows what's going to happen to her day in and day out and day in and day out forever. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, it might not mirror exactly what we read in the book, but at the same time, we have to sit there and think like, how much do we really know about her character? And like literally, I'll just say it like back then, what would would they even have the words to describe something like, you know, that type of like relationship, right? like they might not know how to describe that kind of like dynamic in a relationship, you know, and you wouldn't be know if you could confine that in somebody like Nelly. Yeah, totally. Oh, yeah. You're supposed to Oh, well, we're into a little like light BDSM. No judgment though. You know what I mean? It's like, come on. And we know that, you know, cuz we also see similar um acts happening with Jacob and his girlfriend. Mhm. um also in the whole scene where he cliff covers Kathy's eyes when she's seeing them, right? And that was entirely consensual as well. And I think that and I don't know how you felt about it. We actually haven't talked about this at all until right now, but I know going into that scene, I'm so unusing scenes um or movies or TV shows where all of those acts are for the female gays. all of those acts are um 100% consensual that I was afraid we were going to see something really disturbing. Yeah. I immediately got I don't want to say triggered because it didn't go that far, but I immediately got tense. I didn't want to see that. I didn't want to know about it. I It was going to make me freak out. And then when you realize like, oh, everyone's having a good time. Honestly, with all of it, that's what I was expecting because of all the pearl clutching that's been happening. Well, not just the pearl clutching, but also with the normalization of that being what happens. Yeah. Always. Always in popular media. But you're right. You're so We haven't talked about that yet, but yeah, exactly that. I was like tense like, "Oh, no. Here we go. Here we go. We're going to have to see." And oh, it was actually female pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone was good. Everyone was having a good old happy time. And she was into it and he was into it and it was great. And also I thought, okay, well then that's going to be happening like something's going to turn from Catherine and Heathcliffe. And actually he just protects her in a way, you know, and like pulls her away from the scene. And that intensity in and of itself was enough was enough to get the tension going. Yep. Yep. Just another layer. It's just another another layer. But I think that it needs to be said that Yeah. literally I didn't think about that again until right now. But we are so programmed to expect that in our popular media that when it's almost like we can feel we can feel it in our body and then in that second when you realize that's not what happening we were able to relax. That feels intentional to me. Yeah. Because it's so unusual and being able to watch I mean just thinking about that now being able to watch a movie and know I don't have to have that horrible feeling. I don't have to have that tension in my body. I can let my shoulders relax knowing that I don't have to see something that's going to disturb me and trigger me. Like how in that way? Yeah. Like how freeing just is that because it's so rare. Mhm. Like that right there within itself. Yeah. Is huge. Well, and I think that's something that I love so much about the horror element not being about gore and ape and uh Yeah. Yeah. Like it's basically like we didn't have to Yeah. You can go into it knowing that you're not going to have to endure any scenes of non-consensual anything or you know essay. Yeah. And that what a and how normalized it is when and that this is getting the uproar. Yeah. Yeah. That's I don't know. I feel like that says a lot right there. And then also I do want to bring back up again um just so we make sure to cover it here, but the scene, you know, in the beginning where you have um you know, we talked about this in our last deep dive episode a bit, but where you do have Catherine running off um for we'll use self-pleasure and Heath Cliff normalizing it. Yeah. Um that was also a huge big deal because it's not really ever addressed in popular media either. Yeah. Um, so I feel like all those things really they're layered and they're important. Um, and to make it just about gratuitous sex makes no sense to me. So, I think that all of these things layered together are really important to see in popular media and in just in general, like in TV and movies, like what it's very freeing too, which I think is an important thing to note. Um, yeah. Do you have anything else that we feel like we missed on this topic? because I feel like it's one of the reasons why it's getting so this movie is getting so much criticism and it's crazy to me that it's it's just like you said it's like we can throw as much sex as we want into TV and movies but then the second that it's for a woman's pleasure or for the female gays now becomes problematic. Mhm. Yeah. It's I feel like that criticism isn't we really need to like look at ourselves and think hm why am I upset about this is because we got to check our misogyny sometimes too you know well and I think we need to understand that like if you enjoy that that doesn't make you anti-intellectual either because that's another conversation that's going around too yes um you know not just uh you know the same old same old problem that we've already talked about multiple times, you know, about adding romance or sex into um, you know, we'll say a classic in this case or fantasy or whatever it might be and somehow that diminishes the work. Um, that's obviously a common problem. I would argue gladly bring it on with the people that are saying that it's anti-intellectualism be to look at you have to look at everything within this film in the whole picture and there's so much to talk about all of it's intentional nothing is on accident I mean we've given you so many cases and points to this today right that every shot was intentional it is not just we saw reference before filming this today. Like it's just a Vanity Fair photo shoot. It's just a W pass. It's just Tumblr feed. It's like, okay, Vanity Fair, let's say an example, Vanity Fair is a good example that I completely can rebuttle. Vanity Fair also always has something to say every shot usually. I mean, of course, they're trying to sell you something, but a lot of times, back in the day, at least when Liz and I used to dissect the ads together, what are they trying to convey in this messaging for better or worse, right? So, every shot is intentional and is meant to cause and elicit an emotional reaction in you or to say something, the opening scene where we think because it's intentionally marketed this way as well. And so that's why I think everybody that wants to say that romance is anti-intellectual is already ready guns blazing no matter what they're going to see on screen because it's marketed in a way to be romance and to them that means it's negative. It's int anti-intellectual because right out the gate of the opening scene it sounds like somebody's having spicy time and it's a guy getting hung. Like hey you like you don't think that's intentional. Mhm. Yeah. It sets the tone. It sets the tone. It makes a different way than people were expecting. And it makes you feel uncomfy right away, which is important. Like uncom uncomfy in like a um kind of Yeah. the horror undertones kind of way. Yeah. Mhm. So, I don't think that those things are empty. Oh, this is just shot to be beautiful. Oh, this is just shot which is also okay when that happens, but this is they're trying to say something. And often times movies are a form of art. And oftent times we need to look at there's whole film classes dedicated to taking frames out of movies and saying what are they trying to say in this frame? And this is going to be a piece I don't care. I'm g say this piece is going to be studied for sure. Well, and it's also like if we're talking about like the imagery and the symbolism and you know the intentional colors chosen and shots chosen, then we also need to bring up the fact that it's like people are saying that it's you know um it's a spectacle or it's uh you know like beauty with no substance. And I think that we kind of need to like maybe ask our ask ourselves like okay I come from a makeup artist background Ashley does too. Why are and both of us got into it because of the art part. Yeah. Okay. So I think it gives us a big uh kind of a different perspective. Mhm. I think we need to ask ourselves like why when something when you want to make something beautiful whether it's like you know makeup or any other type of artistic medium when you want to make something beautiful why does that have to suck all of the meaning out of it all the soul out of it. Why are we then assuming that if it's beautiful it's meaningless? Yeah. That's that's dangerous thinking. Yeah. or if um you know and then the reverse of that, right? If it's intellectualized, then it needs to not be as opulent and beautiful. It kind of seems like a strange dichotomy that's like completely unnecessary and I don't know, I dare say completely fabricated by the patriarchy. Yeah. Intentionally. Yeah. To make what we create as women less serious. And it bothers me. Yeah. You know what a lot of like long pan zoomed shots that I saw was recently? Frankenstein. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. A lot of gore, too. A lot of a lot of gore. Um, but a lot of things that were taken at liberty from an artistic perspective to do. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. But it would wasn't meant with criticism for that. It was meant how groundbreaking and beautiful and what an amazing shot and it was and it was and it is but smthering heights and there was a lot of symbol symbolism and meaning within Frankenstein. Yep. So it could it was allowed to exist as both. So what's the difference is what I'm saying and what we're saying. What's the difference? Why must it now be um it's like they they take these things and you try to use it against us and and we need to make sure that's not being that's not allowed. Mhm. It's not okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's the tale is old as time. It's recycled and regurgitated in every different way. But ultimately, in my opinion, it boils down to the same thing. Mhm. It's like not taking it seriously for all of the reasons that women like it and relate to it. Yeah. Is Yeah. Mhm. I shouldn't have to be tense watching movies at the movie theater because I'm worried that I'm going to see a triggering scene. Yeah. Of that nature. Mhm. Um, and the fact that you can relax your shoulders during this because of the explicit

consent given and just the way that everything is framed and filmed like should be a good thing, should be celebrated and instead it's heavily criticized and parts removed and not discussed and instead flipped around. And I understand like I understand um a part of the literary critique of the purists that want it to be the same as it was on page especially for Isabella's story you know but you know again we keep going back to like that's been done 35 times and if that like for her story right so I think that this conversation is very important for modern times consent is a huge topic for a while now and it's needs to and but it it's a topic but that we haven't seen portrayed enough on screen. Well, and in this case, not just consent, but also um diverse uh sexual tastes. Yeah. Specifically for women. Yeah. Because it's like it I don't want to say it's always been okay for men to have the taste that they have, but at least behind clo closed doors, it's always been okay for men to have the taste that they have. Right. even behind closed doors, it's not been okay for women to have the taste that they have. Um, and so to put that on screen, you know, whether you agree with that adaptation of Isabella's character or not does have impact. That's huge. Yeah. Yep. And just like we talked about with Nelly, it's another opportunity for a female story to be told. And in this case, it is another example of classism. And even you're given all the things you want in life and you're put into this box and you're told you have to stay in that box. And now because you escaped that box, we are all going to criticize you for not staying in that box. Mhm. So you can't ever win. Is that what we're doing right now? Think about that. Yeah. So, okay. So, let's Don't ever feel like we're yelling at you guys. We're just very impassionate about all of this. Yeah. We're just we're yelling out into the void so that hopefully some people feel seen and if other people disagree with us then they can bring some interesting conversation and different perspectives to the table. Yeah. So all right let's discuss Heath Cliff as a villain. Oo. Okay. In this version specifically. So there's a big takeaway, right? That they're romanticizing in a positive way this horrible abusive love story. Mhm. Keith Cliff is a villain. He has no redeeming qualities. He has no excuse. Not that we should excuse abuse, but within this film, they're upset because he's not portrayed as a villain. Okay. So, here's the thing that's kind of interesting about the movie adaptation. I would argue that in this movie adaptation, Heath Cliff is not yet a villain. Mhm. First of all, does he do Well, does he does he do toxic relationship things? Yes. Yeah. For sure. So does Catherine. Yep. Okay. I'm not saying that their behavior is gradea relationship material behavior. Okay, that's like not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I don't agree with the fact that Heathcliffe in the movie version that we saw is yet a villain. We've already talked about how this would be perhaps his villain origin story. Mhm. Because in the book, we see in the very beginning of the book, Lockwood obviously goes to Withering Heights on his, you know, has to stay the night and has the whole experience with Cathy's ghost and whatnot. Okay. He meets Heathcliffe who is, you know, older. This has already all happened in the past. He's already gone through his, you know, I guess you could say like he's already become a villain because this is at the end of all of these events happening. Yeah. Um, and then we go back in time through the point of view of Nelly telling the story to Lockwood um, about how Heathcliffe has become what he now is. Mhm. So that we get up to present day. That doesn't happen in the movie. In the movie, we don't get that. We start off with them as children and get to watch that lineal linear progression. Yeah. It ends with Catherine's death. Yeah.

And that's when he snaps to me and goes in his full descent of madness. So that stops there. So we're not going to see that yet. Yeah. Literally. So again, is he problematic? Yeah. Is he maybe not the greatest boyfriend? Yeah. Are they having an affair? Totally. Is this not a great relationship? Absolutely not a great relationship. Is he in the movie version doing the horrific things that we see him do later on or at least that he is perceived to have done through Nellie's eyes in the book version? No, we haven't seen him do any of those things in the movie version. He's not abusing Isabella. Like, yeah, he's trying to get revenge. He's manipulative. Not great, but he is not abusing her. He doesn't hang her dog. Mhm. um which was another, you know, obviously major turning point I feel like in his character in the book version. Um so I don't know that this movie is actually romanticizing Heath Cliff's toxic abusive behavior because he's not yet gotten to that point. It shows the first half of the book as well. It's showing how the circumstances in which these people are being raised in makes them a villain and makes Heath Cliff a villain. Mhm. You know, and it's not to excuse us, but we are to some extent a product of our surroundings and circumstances. Well, yeah. He gets there somehow. Yeah. You know, it's not like nothing happens to him and all of a sudden this is how he turns out. And that is a tie in to I mean in Catherine's um story at least generational trauma. Yeah, for sure. Without having to have generations to show for it because you can see the abuse and the way that she's treated and everything like that and how it would continue and how she was treated. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So, I would say um I personally would disagree with the fact that yeah, Heath Cliff is a villain in this version. I don't think that, you know, Fennel is uh excusing his behavior or portraying him in a positive light intentionally. I think that's just how he would appear without the perspective of Nelly being put onto him and then also without having seen him when he's 40 years old instead of, you know, 20 years old or whatever. Basically, we're getting cut off at that point. We don't know. We He you know in this version he might go insane and do something else. We don't know because it ends and it's over. Yeah. And it is important as you've mentioned especially in our beginners's guide how just because this isn't a positive love story doesn't mean it's not somebody's love story. Oh totally. and how important that representation is and like how toxic it is and how you know Catherine kind of got out in a way, right? You don't know what happens next and so it's not trying to dilute that. It's just you're just seeing that half of the story for that person's life. Well, we're focusing on like a different part of a different part of the story, a different point in time. I think that's also important to note because it's like what do we know? It's like that um and also a different narrator. Like there's so many It's like this is the blueprint. No, this is the this is the um not what is that? And then she's filling in the blanks. Oh, like the outline like a rough outline. It's not a rough outline by any means, but like you take an outline of something and then you build upon it. Mhm. It's almost like what's going on there? Yeah. That's why it's an adaptation or interpretation. That's a lot of movie adaptations that we've seen. Yeah. do that. Well, it's like that um you know, I don't know if any of you guys have seen it, but it was a miniseries on HBO with Oscar Isaac and Jessica Chastain called Scenes from a Marriage. And I can't remember if it's five scenes or what it is. It was originally based on I think a play, but they're this it's all about this married couple during the span of their marriage that's let's say 20 years long. And it's one scene. It's like each each snippet is one scene pulled out of context. Oh. Out of a day in their marriage over the course of 20 years. Yeah. And so that's almost how this feels to me, like this movie. It's like we're pulling that time frame out and isolating it. And yeah, perhaps E He Heath Cliffe is abusive and is um you know a tyrant and is this terrible person, but at this point in time and this little tiny capsule that we are seeing, maybe he hasn't become a villain yet. Mhm. Yeah. You know, and it's like that's kind of how I saw this movie. Yeah. Not to say that that changes his character in the book at all, but it's important to note. Mhm. All right. So Liz, is it under so much scrutiny because perhaps it was produced, written, and directed largely by women and depicts women at the center of the story? H I mean, at this point in time, it would be really hard for me to not believe that that had something to do with it. Yeah. I like how you're like, "Yeah, exhibit A. Whack." This is when I need one of the whackers with the things with the boards with the You guys get it. Or like a laser like a laser pointer. Mhm. Mhm. Um I think that there's a lot and I haven't checked this since since originally when this happened. Okay. But and we're not we don't have enough time with enough data at this point. So I'm just going off of what I know, but okay. Okay. So, for opening weekend, obviously, we do know that Withering Heights became the number one movie in the world. Mhm. Um, which is great, right? That's awesome. Um, so I decided to verify that cuz I had seen that floating around social media like on posts or whatever and I was like, "Oh, is that true? I don't know." So, I had Googled just typed into a basic Google search, you know, like is Withering Heights the number one movie in the world? And it said, "Yes, Withering Heights, you know, directed by Emerald Fennel, starring Margot Robbie and Jacob Allerty, is the number one movie in the world for opening weekend." And it classified it specifically as a thriller. So, here's the thing. Romance aside, romance debate aside, I don't know that I would classify this as a thriller. Horror, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Thrilling in that way. It was just an odd choice, right? cuz I was like I feel like at this point in time that would be like a subgenre. Yeah. Like sorry if you were to classify it though it's like I feel like thriller wouldn't be what it was. So I was like okay well that's weird. Well I'm going to take it a step further then because I feel like this is the once again eraser of romance being a legitimate genre because heaven forbid a romance be the number one movie in the world. Right. Okay. So then I just decided to Google what genre is Withering Heights the movie by, you know, Emerald Fennel 2026. Um, and it said that it was a ro, I believe the way they phrase it was romantic drama. Mhm. So I was like, okay. So when you Google what type of movie it is, it's classified as a romantic drama, but then when they're talking about it being the number one movie in the world, they're classifying as a thriller. Hey Liz, that's sus. Literally. So, I don't know. I mean, call us conspiracy theorists, but it sounds a little bit to me like this is the same problem that we keep encountering again and again and again since the dawn of time that hey, Emily Bronte probably was encountering back in the 1800s as well. I mean, see, not being able to even publish her book under her own name for the first three years that it was out because it does get mclassified, not taken seriously, infantilized, not given the cred that it deserves, etc., etc., etc. And I have a hard time believing that has nothing to do with who wrote it, who directed it, who produced it, etc. Mhm. I don't know. Yeah, we could be wrong. We could be wrong. I mean, it's true. We could totally be wrong. We could be delusional. Let's talk about box office for a hot second and then we'll go into examples of when this hasn't been a problem. Oh, okay. So, let's talk about box office. So, we're filming right now on Monday the 23rd. This went out on Friday. Um, so we just got off of the second weekend of release. Okay. Right. So, according to the second weekend of release, right? now dates 20th to the 22nd of February. It was the second, you know, top grossing of the weekend, still at 14 million with Goat, that animated film at 17. However, with that said, Withering Heights is still overall for both weekends combined, 60 million in total gross versus Goat 58 million. So, it's the second week for Goat and so they got up, right? A lot of us, my kids want to see it. I didn't even know it was out yet. So, hey. Yeah. Um, so Withering Heights still is good. I just think it's interesting little peak at what we want as a people and women want is part of this, I think, snapshot into the box office currently. Yeah. Otherwise, the numbers wouldn't be there. I can only imagine. Okay. Whatever that is, isn't that the It's like a story, a music story. I see a guitar. Okay. 8 million, you know, total total gross 7.8. That doesn't make sense to me, but okay. Looks like our opening release weekend then. Whatever that is. Crime 101. So, I think it's been out for a couple weeks. Yeah, two weeks. It says here total gross 24 million. So, who's Crime 101? Probably like typically geared for. We're generalizing of course, but like Yeah, you know, it is definitely more geared towards the male audience for sure. Send Help is number five still in the box office, which go out for four weeks and it has total gross 55 million already. They'll probably call that some kind of freaky anomaly. Yeah. Even though really Yeah. And then all the other ones, how to make a killing, 3 million like like the numbers are a lot lower. Yeah. Low. And then you get the the place the people like Avatar that's been out forever and they're just like some random showing story, you know? So, hey. So, the numbers Oh, people don't want this. People don't want these movies. The ratings are terrible. The money says different. The ratings say different. Yeah. Okay. So, that's that. Let's talk about when have let's say book to film adaptations gotten this much hate when written and directed by males by men. Should you should you just insert some like cricket noises into here? It's like I'm going to get people that say well there was but to this level yeah there's always criticism. There's always criticism on both sides. We get it for sure, but really like when was the last time I mean we're a part of the book community, right? So it's like we're aware of these book adaptations coming out. Like I'm thinking okay recent Housemaid, right? People knew about but it wasn't at this level, right? No. And and just to play devil's advocate there, I mean even obviously a woman wrote that. Um but the ending was completely changed and a male directed it. I know that already. Yeah. And it's like, and I don't know that. I mean, I liked the ending in the movie better than the book ending anyway, but I'm just like, I don't know that people were really warm. How come people I know Withering Heights is different than The Housemmaid. I know. Don't come for us, but like we're just giving you a point of reference of recent years. Um, but that ending was completely changed, right? It's still the same vibe and we do believe that it did better, but it was changed. We don't want to spoil things, but like watch that episode if you want to see it. Um, so hey, yeah, it was a male who directed it. So, um, okay, but let's let's go back even further. And of course, social media wasn't a thing at this time, but The Great Gatsby is one of Liz's I Liz and I's favorites. We were there not when it was written, but when it was produced, right? It was the same story. We, as Withering Heights, we read it in high school and then the movie came out what, like maybe 10 years later or something. We had seen the original adaptation already. We loved it, consumed it, loved the Baz Lurman version so much, even though things were changed, including race issues. Mhm. Including body issues with Myrtle. Mhm. Going from somebody who was very unconventionally the poster girl of the time of the Roaring 20s to somebody micro thin, which Yeah. I mean, we noticed that immediately. We didn't even when we did the reread last year, we were like, wo, you know, so that is important as well. Well, and it's dealing with a lot of the same themes if you really like pick it apart. Like me and Ashley were talking about this yesterday. It's like we're dealing with um you know, a lot of class disparity. Obviously, we're dealing with the juxtaposition of the two different literal houses or states, whatever you want to call them. There's a love story, there's an affair, there's a major, you know, death, like all of these things. And yeah, I mean, I don't know. We were really pumped about this movie. We went and saw it in the theaters. We really loved the book. And I don't feel like it got the hate that this is getting or even the buzz that this is getting really. And I mean, we're talking a movie starring Leonardo DiCaprio, not some dinky little like whatever. One ton of awards, hands down. Easy peasy. Soundtracks, everything. That was one of those that get on Rotten Tomatoes. Can you look that up really quick? I'd just be curious. That was a movie that stayed though. Yeah. And I didn't. Wow. Well, I mean, and you know, I brought this up on my own personal um Instagram account because if we're talking relevancy as far as like time and um social media, I guess like buzz around it, if we really want to discuss it, to me, the closest thing in hype would have been the movie adaptation of Wicked, which still bothers me. I mean, you guys know we deep dove all five of those books, okay, in anticipation of the second movie coming out, um, part two, and we did an episode on the first movie, even before we had the deep dives coming out, you know, and if we really want to get into it, all those books are about are political issues. We're dealing with significant race issues, colonization issues, I mean, genocide. Like, we focus on animals in the play and the movies, but in the books, it's like the animals are a little piece. There's a lot more going on there. Um, and that's basically what the entire book series is about. Yeah. So to, you know, if we want to talk that, then it's like, uh, I don't feel like Wicked was getting the hate for essentially completely erasing the whole entire point of the book series to replace it with a love triangle and uh, main characters that weren't even particularly that relevant in the whole book series as a as a entity. Yeah. people didn't people were not quite as much of an uproar with Fiero's character until I think later maybe the second movie maybe because more people have read it by then but it wasn't at this level and that is a huge issue with Fiero's character in Wicked as well cuz you completely erased his story just much as as much as Heathcliffe right now in this adaptation. Yeah. So there's I mean Yeah. So, I guess I just and I get that women wrote the Wicked movies, but the play was adapted by Steven Schwarz. The books were written by Gregory Maguire. It was produced by men. Mhm. I feel like there I don't know. Like I said before, conspiracy theorists maybe. I mean, we're dealing with super high-profile people, great, you know, actors and actresses that are also really popular. And the hate that Wicked got for completely basically taking an insane left turn away from the source material like wasn't even really a conversation in the book community that we were having at large. Yeah. Like me and Ashley had it. I mean we talked that thing to death. Yeah. Um but I I mean just scrolling through social media it was like crickets out there. Yeah. So I don't know. Yeah. Seems suspect to me but maybe I'm just delusional. No, it's weird, man. Yeah. So, and it's not to say these conversations shouldn't be happening, but it's like let's keep the same energy. I think that's where we're coming from. It's like like listen, if we want to like pick apart all these things and make an uproar, we should be making sure that we're doing it when it's all genders producing this. Yeah. You know, well, and it's like, you know, a couple people reached out and responded to my rant about Wicked, you know, and basically said, well, Wicked's not a classic. And I hear you and I understand, but to me it almost seems like it should be easier for people to critique than a book like Wicked because it did only come out 30 years ago. It's a lot more accessible. It was very popular for a really long time obviously. So, hey, this it was a that's debatable, right? Because it's based off of Wizard of Oz. Mhm. Which is a classic. True. Well, it's very different though from the original. But again, it's very different from the original source material. Sorry, my brain's exploding. Yeah. And people aren't freaking out about that. Going off of going off the rails from Wizard of Oz. You know, it makes me mad because that's the thing is even if we're going all the way back to the Wizard of Oz. What do we know? If you guys are curious, you can listen to our intro episode about this. What we know is that that book was largely inspired by political issues going on at the time as well. Yeah. Okay. So, these things do not exist in a vacuum. And for some reason, no one's up in an uproar about that. Mhm. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Something to think about. Something to think about. Okay. So, how did the Great Gatsby do Rotten Tomatoes wise? I wouldn't know. Um, now I mean, hey, the according if you're comparing tomatoes to tomatoes, then the reviews so far for Withering Heights is better. Oh, tomato meter out of 305 reviews, 49%. Okay. The other one was 50. So, there's hope for us yet. Maybe maybe you guys just don't like the movies we like. Hey, that's also a possibility. Yeah. Um, of course. And then, um, Popcorn Meter, 67% out of 77%. So, there's hope that, uh, Withering Heights will decline even more over time. That's what it sounds like to me is going to happen, honestly, for for real, you know. Oh, man. Well, hey, everyone's different. Let's look up Wizard of Wicked. I know it's different because it's a musical, but hey, that was a choice to base the movies off of the musical. And I mean, that's the thing, too. It's like, we get it. Yeah. 88% and 95%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty high, I would say. So, 95%. It's about as high as it gets pretty much. Um, and that's the thing. It's like, okay, we understand that it was based off the musical and not the original text, but what you choose to put in the movie could still be even different. M you know it's like you can incorporate different things to like you do whatever you want like that's the thing. Mhm. So and we're not we obviously there's always going to be a debate with movie adaptations. Okay. We're not being in denial. We're not being um you know too laser focused on this one but everybody else is. That's what we're saying. It's like every there's not going to be a perfect movie adaptation. It doesn't exist. There's no way to take something that should take you eight hours to read the start to finish into two hours. You can't. It can't be done. How much of it soul is inside the movie is what counts. And for some reason, this book and this movie movie adaptation is just freaking everybody out. And it's just in an uproar. And it just feels when you're comparing the other movie adaptations that we know that have taken a little liberty to go off the rails in a way does not get this kind of criticism especially for these things that we've discussed. Yeah. At least not as widespread. Yeah. Yeah. We talk about the book community. We're in the book community though. This is this is another level that we critics are always going to criticize. Like we know that. Okay. Like we don't care about that. Like literally we do not care. Like I do not care. I do not base what I watch or like off of any of that information. Literally. Okay. Clearly. I think that that what's got us wanting to dive into these topics is Yeah. the fact that our community that we align ourselves with that we, you know, are here for to talk with to you about these topics. We're It's like I post on my story. The call is coming from inside the house. M so I feel like we need to make sure that we're like looking at where our own internalized biases are as well and are we making sure that we're not perpetuating all of the same problems that Emily Bronte would have dealt with in her day releasing a book of this kind of um what controversial nature on Emerald Fennel and her movie adaptation. Mhm. Hey, totally. What I told Ashley yesterday, I think if uh Emily Bronte could sit in the theater and watch this adaptation, I think she'd like it. Sorry. Yeah. If that makes you mad, but I feel like she would be like, "Wow, what a what an awesome way to depict this crazy story." Mhm. Yeah. Does it tell the whole story? Is it different? You know, it's like, yeah, obviously it's different. Is the soul there? That's what's important for movie adaptations to me. Does it feel like an extension of the novel or a visual representation? Or in Withering Heights case, does it feel like, oh, this could be a different point of view from that goes away from what Nelly's's point of view that was shared? Like, let's look at the piece as a whole. Mhm. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So, that brings us to a really interesting question then. Mhm. Can an artistic interpretation and political and social commentary not coexist? Like when has that been a problem? I mean, Great Gatsby is a perfect example. That thing had that thing had rap music. Like everything like what about Romeo and Juliet, guys? Romeo and Juliet, you know? I mean, hello. If you want to really be critical about that one, I know a lot of people struggle. It's like what? The whole entire movie is still anamic pentameter, but it's updated and modern. That's awesome. Yeah. I just I I feel like and we're still dealing with the same like as you say, the soul is the same, right? And if nothing else, it could get a lot more people into that story that might not be able to identify it with it otherwise in the much more complicated and somewhat dusty version. Yeah. So, there's that. So I my my uh hope for us as a book community is that we can see that an artistic interpretation can in fact include political and social commentary and hey maybe even a bonus a little bit of romance too. Yeah. And not lose credibility. Yeah. And I think what I what I also love about Withering Heights, this adaptation too, is there's so many people that we talk to that are reeling, for better or worse, are having to like sit back and like really think about it after a few days, you know, like they're still thinking about it because so much coexists within that film. And I feel like it's almost like maybe people are having a hard time taking it in because it's so much and it isn't you can only consume it one time and you need to read the text and Mhm. We need more of that. Mhm. Yeah. Absolutely. It just it adds to it adds to the cannon of available media under that umbrella. Under that Withering Heights umbrella. I mean, something that probably hasn't been said enough with Withering Heights as a text, as a book, this isn't accessible for everybody. This is a hard read. Mhm. True. I had to freaking some parts needed immersive reading in there because it's different. So, if this gets people in a way, we do have to give credit where credit is due sometimes to book adaptations that like if this is a way to get someone inspired to try because maybe at least visualizing the the characters are hard. A there's a lot of elements going on that you it's it's brain work, you know, and so we can't come around and have this elitist point of view with our books that we then stop people from wanting to read it. Yeah, totally. It's like you're alienating an entire like group of people who may now not want to read it because they're It's like when we were reading Harry Potter. It's like, okay, first of all, Ashley and I are typically not like influenced by like we're not going to listen to like uh external sources about what to read and what not to read. Generally speaking, we're not really those types of people. We're going to do what we want to do. Um but not everyone functions that way. And so, for example, like when we were reading and covering Harry Potter, that fandom was really harsh to us. Out of all the fandoms that we have encountered, Twilight, you know, like all the big ones, Hunger Games, for sure, hands down, the Harry Potter fandom was like, "You guys obviously don't understand it. Read it again. You didn't get it." Um, you know, all these kind and some more rude than that comments. Um, that in no way, shape, or form would ever in a million years convince me to a want to be part of that fandom. Yeah. and then B to want to reread or try to get into the source material anymore. That's just an example. Um, but I think that it's important as people in the book community, however big or small your platform is, to encourage people to want to read more. Yeah. Right. Isn't that like why we're here? Yeah. Literally. Literally. And if you're going to judge someone for liking the movie that the book is based on because it's not purist enough for you or you find it to be too problematic, it's okay for you to have those feelings, but then to shun people from the community because of that is not okay. You kind of need to check yourself before you know you wreck before you you kind of need to check yourself before you wreck yourself and everyone around you like a bomb because you know Yeah. you have somebody coming off of the movie and they're all amped and pumped and like oh that was great and you're like don't it's nothing like the in saying it in such a tone. We're seeing a lot of comments. We're seeing a lot of hot takes. Um, and everybody's valid to their opinions, but we also do have a responsibility as a person to, you know, not take the wind out of somebody's sales when it's going to get them to read. Like, who like in that regard, who cares? Like, you enjoyed the book. Hey, the or you enjoyed the movie. Hey, the book is a little different. There's a way to frame it, right? where we're not being condescending and elitist and putting up a wall for people and saying, "Well, if you liked that, you won't know." Well, why not let them figure it out for themselves? Let them figure it out. Maybe they won't. Maybe they won't like it as much once they read the book because they'll love the book so much that they realize that the movie isn't what they expected. Maybe vice versa will happen. But how about we let people discover that for themselves and then have a conversation about it? Yeah. I feel like that's very important. Yeah. Okay. So, coming off of that, Ashley, why don't you We have some caffeine. So, if we feel more invigorated, it's because we are. It's cuz we are. We had Alanis. You guys saw it. You guys saw our Alani journey. Okay. Where are we? Well, we are in Hey, why don't you um tell us what the tagline of the movie was and then maybe do a little bit of explaining. Okay. So, was the movie misrepresented as the greatest love story of all time? Or can romance, love, and all these issues coexist? The person is political. Romance is political. Like it or not, it's just a fact. Is that what Bronte was getting at? And was Fennel accurately depicting it? Mhm. Mhm. So, we talked about that a little bit before, but it's this idea that love story, love, romance, relationships in general cannot exist outside of politics and the systems in which we live and function within. Okay. So, greatest love story of all time. Hey, why don't you explain that to us? Hey guys, what's the definition of great? Is it only good? Because that is the debate. A lot of people want to like uh it's not a love story. It's not romance because it's not some happily ever after or it bait and switched you with a tagline that was misrepresentative of the actual uh source material or the context of the movie. Sure. But need I remind you great does not always mean good. Interesting. Highly versatile adjective with several distinctions. Okay. So I'm reading off of the Webster's dictionary. Whatever. Substantial large in size. Right. Great. also immense, vast, colossal. Okay. Also eminent, distinguished in character, illustrious, renowned, noble, crucial in importance. This is a big one to me. Significant, paramount, or exceptional in quality, superb, fantastic. So, it can be taken that way, but it can be taken all these other ways. So, I think that was cheeky Mhm. of them to call it the catchphrase a greatest love story to all time. So it is greatest in that it is a mass it is a

it is immense. It is vast. It is renowned. It is significant. It is paramount. Mhm. Doesn't necessarily mean it's superb. Doesn't mean it's fantastic, but crucial in importance, but it is crucial in importance. I think that's a huge part of it. crucial in importance because of all of these different things that she's breaking down. Bronte or Fennel, depending on what you're looking at, both. Mhm. That they're breaking down. Mhm. It's like, yeah, they're using these two highly dysfunctional but highly in love people to tell a bigger story about society. And I think that that falls under the category of great for better or for worse. I think that's the thing. Yeah. And I as a society who like constantly is falling into ragebait traps, what is a media PR like team going to do? But make it a little cheeky. Mhm. So it is right. We It is It's It is great in the way that we're seeing the definition of but then people are going to take it as greatest love story gone with the wind like beautiful, you know. M so therefore

I can't be mad at it for that personally because it gets people watching it who might not have and it doesn't necessarily mean it's like false advertising right I mean this is I mean going back to housemade is that the media that was going around behind that for people that didn't read the books was like ooh what's this going to be because they were on the red carpet seeming very love triangly Mhm. Okay. Very sexualized for the male gays. Mhm. So, we didn't hear crap for the way that was represented. Yeah. And that wasn't a great time for the ladies involved. No, not at all. Not a great time. Not a great time.

That felt more bait and switchy to me. It's like, hey, if you want to take it literally, then take it literally. Look up the dictionary definition. Yeah. That's all we're telling you right now. That's all we're saying. And it's so I mean I know a lot of you guys like are agreeing all these things but sometimes it's nice to like hear them out loud you know or to know that like maybe that thing that you thought that then you went online and saw that so many people were upset or against Mhm. Oh, sorry. I was just fidgeting. Okay. I was like what's going on? I thought you were trying to send me a hand signal. I'm just spazzing. Um, but yeah, anything, you know, maybe you felt really strongly about something and you went online and people are, you know, very against the way that you felt and you don't feel empowered to like say it, even if it's just something really small, like you guys know that great can mean something other than just really good, you know, um, and positive, you know. Um, then hopefully it helps you feel a little bit more seen. Mhm. Too. Yeah. Mhm. So, and maybe and hopefully we're bringing some alternate perspectives. That's also a goal that we have with this episode is like let's think about it from some different angles here. Last thing on the docket. What do we think? Did Emerald Fennel intentionally try to go for the level of scandalousness that Emily Bronte enlisted in the 1800s? Was that an intentional choice? Were all these decisions made so that she could be that [ __ ] this time? Yeah, I think that's so poetic. Let's think about that for Let's just marinate, guys. Like, hello, dude. Emily Bronte, man, was marked with so much criticism. Yeah. No, no, it was very, very poorly received because of just how dysfunctional these people are and how scandalous it was and just, you know, how could this be written and published and Yeah. Cuz a lot of this stuff is supposed to be tight lipped, closed door, like you're not supposed to talk about your issues. Yeah. Yeah. So, just something to think about as we kind of like wind down and end this episode. We know that there are tons of topics to cover. We know that we cannot cover them all. We know we ourselves have our own blind spots and biases um like things that maybe never even crossed our minds and while we're talking you guys are thinking like oh my god SOS like there's this big thing that you guys are missing. If that's the case, send us a DM, send us a comment. Like this is to open that conversation. And as I said before, and Ashley made fun of me, you know, it might even warrant another episode later on down the line at some point, just once we get a little bit of distance between this conversation, we're able to maybe rewatch the movie a time or two and see what we have to bring to the table. Yeah. Um, you know, and like literally this is like keeping me up at night because I wish I could talk to these two women and ask them like what your, you know, what was going on in their heads, why they made the choices they made, etc. But we can't do that. So, all we can do is just talk to each other about it. Well, golly. Here we are. So, yeah, we haven't watched it a million times. We've watched it once. We haven't read it a million times. We've read it once and it's going to happen more. Liz already, like I said, cleared my schedule. I have to do all of this until the end of time. Hope you guys are ready. No, we just we just um in a way, but like no, we will be consuming more of this in time and we'll reconvene and we might not have said everything as eloquently and perfectly as we want to say and there's still more to marinate on and we're going to miss stuff. Our goal of this episode is also just to give another alternate perspective and add, like we said, our hat into the ring here of opinions because there's a lot of them. Yeah. Well, and just to get to get and keep the conversations going in a way that, you know, hopefully doesn't feel alienating to people either because it's like we want to be able to agree and disagree and add things in um to the conversation while also encouraging people to be here and to read. And that is the point lots of times of these especially classic older texts is to pick them apart. if you want to and so choose with a fine tooth comb to try to figure out what was being said here. Yeah. And I feel like lots of times film gives us the opportunity to do the same thing and that's really special. Okay guys, well thank you so much for sitting in with us with these three episodes so far covering Withering Heights. In case you missed it, we'll be having a reading guide coming up real soon for Pride and Prejudice. So we'll be diving into that. And then of course as far as right now just our typical you know cuz it's been out for a while movie versus book and talking all about that. And then of course our normal Tuesday episodes we have Gilded um Played Prisoner. Played Prisoner going on right now and other fun things. We're going to Romanty Con. We'll be there right now when this film goes out. So if you're at Romanty Con, you made it this far. What are you doing? Come see us. We're here in LA. So check it out. That's what we'll be doing. Thank you guys so much. Is there anything else you feel like we need to say? No, I feel like that's good for now and we'll talk to you about it again at a further time. Any chance we get. All right, you guys. Thank you so much. Make sure to subscribe, follow everywhere you like to listen favorite podcast before you go. Find us on Instagram, Tik Tok. We're besties in the books podcast everywhere. And we'll see you next Tuesday. Bye bye.