That’s Delivered Podcast
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That’s Delivered Podcast
Breaking Down Freight Fraud: Inside Strategies with "Fraud Girl" Danielle Spinelli
Freight fraud is an invisible enemy draining dollars from the entire supply chain—impacting nearly 20% of what consumers pay for everyday goods. On this episode of That’s Delivered, we sit down with Danielle Spinelli, better known as “The Fraud Girl,” who is leading the charge to fight this rising threat. From her early days as a freight broker to her current mission as a fraud prevention expert, Danielle shares eye-opening stories, actionable tips, and insights on how technology, teamwork, and vigilance can help protect your business. You'll hear how fraud tactics have evolved, the tools companies are now using to combat theft, and why an industry-wide culture of awareness is more critical than ever.
Key Takeaways
✅ How freight fraud is adding 20% to consumer costs on nearly everything you buy
✅ Danielle’s journey from freight broker to industry-leading fraud fighter
✅ The real story of tracking a stolen copper shipment across state lines
✅ How double brokering has evolved into organized cargo theft post-2020
✅ The role of VIN verification systems and in-pallet tracking in theft prevention
✅ The unexpected risks self-driving trucks face from adaptive criminals
✅ Why building an anti-fraud culture is as important as using high-tech tools
✅ Red flags to watch for, including the request to transload onto U-Haul trailers
✅ The power of industry collaboration and sharing fraud intelligence
✅ What to expect from Danielle’s upcoming "Fraud Girl Fridays" podcast
✅ One simple action you can take today to improve your fraud prevention process
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🗓️ Thursday, July 24, 2025
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Welcome back to that's Delivered. I'm your host, truckin' Ray, and today we're talking with someone truly special in our space. It's Danielle Spinelli, aka the Fraud Girl. She's an award-winning carrier vetting expert at the Carts, my carrier portal, and she's built a reputation as a frontline fighter against freight fraud. Over the years she's brokered freight, vet carriers and hosted webinars, been dubbed a superhero on Sirius XM and led fraud prevention initiatives with industry impact. In this episode, we'll dive into her journey from broker side becoming a fraud girl, unpack the uncommon blind spots and explore solutions every trucking professional needs. And welcome to the show, danielle Spinelli.
Speaker 1:Hey, welcome to the show how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm good. I'm good. It's Monday morning. I got a Red Bull. I'm ready to go.
Speaker 1:Nice, I love it. That keeps it going. You know you're dozing off. You're trying to figure it out.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah, this weekend I was out in the sun a lot so I'm pretty crispy, I'm like lobster-y, so I'm trying to stay awake over here.
Speaker 1:It's fine, though you Take it over any winter day. Yeah definitely yeah. So, man, you know you're doing big things out there, from broker to carrier, vetting expert. Let's take us back, you know, to the beginning. You know everybody wants to know how you can start it in the industry. People, they want to pick something they want to do out of college or out of high school and they're like, man, what should I do? And, and here you are, you know, setting a, setting a standard for a lot of people. How did you get?
Speaker 2:started. What sparked the interest in trucking and freight brokerage? So originally, like right out of high school, I did go to college but it was I had my daughter really young, so I actually did like online courses back before. Online was everywhere, so did that. But then I worked at telecom community so I did or company not community did that for like 10 years. And then one of my girlfriends worked as a broker and she's like, oh my gosh, you should get into freight, it's so fun and you know you make great money and all this stuff and little did. I know I would have like no sleep but it was great.
Speaker 2:So I came on to my first brokerage, started off as like a dispatcher basically, and I worked like second shift, you know track and trace and stuff like that. And then once I got that down, I got promoted up to being an actual carrier sales rep, worked there for about a year and then I transferred over. I mainly did like USPS a postal work whenever I was there, and then after that went to my second brokerage and stayed there for about seven years. So that one I did copper and electrical wire and my main territories were southeast to northeast and southeast to Midwest, so I was a carrier sales rep there for a long time, and yeah so had to. With the high value freight, though, like copper and electrical wire, I really had to learn how to vet. So that's how kind of that whole thing got started.
Speaker 1:Nice, yeah, vetting is so important. Trying to figure that out is you can't just do it in one day and you got to learn it over time, right? It takes some time to get used to it.
Speaker 2:It takes time and it evolves so much Like these bad guys are really coming up with new things. Like as soon as you kind of are like, oh, I got this down pack, then they have something else, You're like, oh my gosh, I got to learn something new. And that's the same thing like we're dealing with on the tech side too. So, yeah, it's never ending. You always need the education and learning, Wow.
Speaker 1:Can you share one specific incident early in your broker career where you're overlooking vetting but you had real consequences for financial operation and also your reputation in the industry? Can you share something that made an impact for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this was like, let's see, this was prior to me leaving a good amount before I started my care portal. But it was right whenever FMCSA was getting hacked nonstop, they were sending fax things in and changing people's phone numbers and contact information, but this was kind of before it became mainstream into the regular brokers. And so what happened was I was on a call it was a setup care we were already working with. I looked them up in my care portal. They did have the red alert saying like they had recent changes on FMCSA. I was like, okay, who cares? I didn't, I had no idea this was still, this was a thing. Yet, like I said, it just happened and so I put them on the load. They actually picked up the load and um, or so I thought, and this was copper, so they actually had to show ID and like they were fingerprinted and all these things. Um and so at what basically happened. Was that person actually?
Speaker 2:What I found out later was that person actually double brokered their posing as that carrier. They they were also posing as a broker had, like a legit carrier, go pick up the freight, took it to a warehouse and, um, at that warehouse luckily it was right down the road from our brokerage. But we called them and we kind of figured all this out because my customer luckily they had driver's license and stuff like that so I was able to get ahold of the actual carrier. That picked it up and was like, hey, where's my freight at? And they're like, oh no, we were told to cross dock it here. So the place cross docket, uh, was right down the road, so went there, drove out there actually, and, uh, they pulled up their security cameras and it was cross docked to another truck. That truck was like on his way down to texas, um.
Speaker 2:And so by the time I actually got in touch with that driver, he was, uh, you know, just passing over the texas border. Super nice guy had no idea what was going on. Basically, he was going to be getting scammed as well because of course they would have never paid him. And so I told him who I am, what's happening, like, please, please, please, deliver my freight. And so he did, and it all worked out great. But if I would have known about all that, or if I would have had that alert and actually followed our process, that would have never happened. So that was my big like oh my God, this is scary. When stuff like that happens, you think you know it all, but, like I said, things change all the time. Wow, yeah.
Speaker 1:That sounds like a huge mess to untangle.
Speaker 2:I didn't sleep for like two days. It was awful, but we got it, yay.
Speaker 1:Wow, the adrenaline rush on that too.
Speaker 2:it's gotta be insane oh my god, literally I did not sleep. I mean, and then like you're calling, you're calling, you're calling, and I and the guy sounded so legit, like I mean I was really good at vetting I or I pride myself on being very good at vetting at that time and like I, like he sounded he's answering questions, just just like not too fast, not too slow, like and I and I was digging into and he had all the responses, um, so yeah, that was one that I got totally, totally taken advantage of. And that was when I was like, oh my god, I need to, I need to learn everything I can, because I'd never want that happening to me again.
Speaker 1:So yeah yeah sometimes that those things fuel us so that they push us to be better, to take our trade, our skills to another level. So good for you, that's awesome. And now here you are today. Look at this.
Speaker 2:Trying to be yeah.
Speaker 1:The carts. Tell us about that. You know how did you make that transition for and carrier vetting in that company. What role did you play there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so um kind of. So first it was just my care portals prior to the acquisition. Whenever I got hired um there, and how that happened was I had another situation that would have had a load taken from me, but they had that stopping point and I actually followed my care portals advice instead of just disregarding it and basically it prevented everything. So I messaged one of the guys from my care portal who's actually the other sales rep at the time and basically was like you guys are amazing, you guys saved me. Thank you so much, oh my God.
Speaker 2:And then we just kept talking about what I'm doing and what they're seeing and whatever. And so because of that I'm sorry, because of that we just kept talking. He's like hey, we're actually hiring. You know, do you want to come on and be in sales? I'm like, let's go. You know I love the fraud stuff. So came, came aboard there and I love their product as a user, so came with my care portal, worked there for about it was right up at a year, and then we got acquired by Descartes. So now I'm part of the Descartes, which is like MacroPoint, aljax, my care portal, so selling all that solution, now still in sales, but handling a bunch of other stuff too, so pretty fun.
Speaker 2:So man you got many hats, Many hats yeah.
Speaker 1:So earning the Fraud Girl title? How do we get started on that? You've been celebrating the Fraud Girl, you know. Celebrated as that. How did the nickname originate and does it symbolize you? Do you think?
Speaker 2:So I don't even know exactly where it started. Actually, basically, I do a lot of speaking and podcasting webinars like live speaking. I go to a bunch of conferences I think it's 12 this year that I go to and I guess because I've been giving so much information, I'm learning so much, I'm teaching that out Just kind of got nicknamed fraud girl somehow I just heard it through, whatever, and kind of how it blew up into what it is now is Nate Johnson from GLCS. I was on a podcast with him and I was like, yeah, it's so funny, everyone keeps calling me fraud girl and it's kind of silly or whatever. And he was like, yeah, well, we need to get you a shirt that says that. I was like, oh, yeah, whatever.
Speaker 2:And then next time I see him at the next conference, which is the Broker Care Summit, he's like hey, I got a present for you. I'm like what? Yeah, what is it? And so he pulls out the hat that says the FG on there for Fraud Girl. And I'm like what's FG? And he's like Fraud Girl. I'm like what? And then he pulls out the shirt which has the little animation character on it. I mean, up for me. And so then I became like a whole thing now. It's like a whole logo and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:So that's perfect. It's always great when someone gives you a name.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was really cool.
Speaker 1:A lot of guys gave me the name Truckin' Ray.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's perfect right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, got to keep things lively. Man, that's great. Nate Johnson he's doing it out there. He's doing great things. Really proud of him and all the things that they're able to accomplish with his podcast as well. A lot of great things happening there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, he's awesome, he's just the nicest guy. He's from Minnesota, which is where I grew up. Actually, he grew up where I lived and then I was always visiting where he lives was like 10 miles apart. So once we figured that out, I'm like you're minnesota nice and he is. He's the nicest guy I've ever met. Um, but like the definition of minnesota nice, so he's a great guy that's good, wow, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I mean, man, that's great. You wear like a badge of honor. Um, keep going with that. I, I champion you. I think that it fits and I think you wear it well. So so when someone called you a superhero on Sirius XM, I mean that must have felt great too. How does your role on Sirius XM play out?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So Charles Gracie, he just started his show there Trucking Sense, I believe, is what it's called and yeah, I mean he's just like oh, you're a superhero now because I have the whole emblem and whatever. So totally you know, jumping into it, I love it. I'm actually starting a podcast on every Friday. It'll be called Fraud Girl. Fraud Girl Fridays. Just doing like quick 15 minute tips on like hey, try this out for your vetting or add this into your compliance. They talk about time and, like I said, I do like the webinars and speaking and sometimes you just need like little tips to go through your weeks, you know, and update your processes. So I'm starting that and then you know, like I said, the whole superhero thing, which is so funny. Nobody has a silver bullet, nobody knows it all, but I'm very honored to be called that.
Speaker 1:So nice, keep going, I like it.
Speaker 2:Thanks I like it Thanks.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, congratulations with doing that. More podcasting is better. I champion podcasting. I think it's the best way to go. I think anyone that's living a life and learning can have a podcast and share it with other people to inspire them to do something that they feel like they're a little hesitant to do. So podcasting is a great way to do that, especially on a long form interview or even if it's just 30 minutes or so. I mean, you don't have to be a long show, so that's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I'm excited for it. We'll see what all jumps into it. But yeah, it'll be a whole thing starting, hopefully by the end of the month. We'll get rocking and rolling.
Speaker 1:So nice, all right. So tools and tech. You know any real examples. Let's talk tech. Your own webinar with Wire B. You walked through role-playing courier, vetting, selling the load, applying fraud red flags which red?
Speaker 2:flags are most stand out for you as most, I would say, underappreciated. So let's see which ones underappreciated. So let's see which ones are underappreciated. I think the biggest one is like, if the addresses and phone numbers and stuff are matching up with other people. I think that one is one that kind of everybody sees and kind of dismisses now, because there is so many different affiliations, they'll see like a big building and they're like, oh well, that's why you know, move on from there. Um, because they probably see like more no, that's nothing more than a yes, so they kind of disregard that.
Speaker 2:Now, that's probably the, I think, the biggest thing that's overseeing, because sometimes you'll find that it's actually the same person that's using the same address and they're just having an mc running that one into the ground, shutting that one off, starting a new one, kind of over and over again, and if you're not like digging into each one, you you'll miss that. So I think that's the biggest thing. As far as like the most underappreciated red flag, but yeah, like you said, having tools like tech with. So YRB is one of our partners and they they handle like as a call comes in, it vets them and tells you like this guy has a red flag or maybe this guy's blocked and you don't even want to have his call. So they handle that part too, which is really cool, and then they pair up directly with my care portal. So it's that role play. Part of that was, if I had that as a rep, as a broker, it would have been like a game changer. So I'm a huge, huge advocate for them.
Speaker 1:So tell me, you know you got these AI, you know there's the bots they'll phone calls for for drivers or for brokers. I mean, how do you know when you're talking to a bot?
Speaker 2:That's hard. I that's going to be. I. I think, personally that will be the next thing that hopefully this doesn't happen, hopefully, like all these AI companies are vetting their carriers and vetting their brokers, but really you're not talking to a person, so you're not getting that humor, human interaction, where it's like, oh, this guy sounds a little bit off or oh, you know, I don't know, I have like a weird feeling because it's just a robot, right. So I think that's one thing that it's going to be interesting. I really hope that doesn't happen because I think that will really set us back tech-wise, in logistics, but definitely that's something like vetting-wise. You know we won't have, you won't be able to have that human interaction. So I think heavily relying on red flags and then even going further, like make the phone call after you're done, maybe booking the load with somebody.
Speaker 1:Hey calling confirming this was actually you and not just like an AI guy, you know, posing as this carrier posing as that broker, yeah.
Speaker 2:So Well, yeah you know the deep fakes or something like that too. I mean wow, yeah, I mean I know Well, and even like, if you go on like TikTok or whatever and like whatever news story, like even that's hard to believe because they have ai posing as like these celebrities saying all these things. So it's like what, what prevents that from happening? As like a carrier or a broker? Right, they can pose as whatever. So it's definitely like a, I guess, like I think, the next realm praying that I'm not giving the guys a handbook out there. But yeah, I think we're, we're on side, we are working on having models to protect that and kind of really thinking out of the box and like what could happen and trying to make preventative things that way.
Speaker 1:Wow. So the more we share, the more we could also share with the wrong people.
Speaker 2:Yep, which is like my care portal. We're big on that too. So one thing that stinks is like whenever somebody looks up a carrier it says like, exactly like all the red flags. And some people will just say like, hey, I can't work with you because you have one, two, three, four, five, all these bad things that they're telling them. Well then they're like, oh well, all I got to do is fix those things and then I'll look fine, right and so.
Speaker 2:But really it's like you need to use that tool differently. Like don't give the guys the handbook, vet them further and talk to them and or just, hey, sorry, load's covered bye. You know, get off the phone with them. You don't need to tell them everything. So there is some things that MyCarePortal we do like on the background that we don't even tell our customers about, just as extra precautionary stuff. But I think if we did tell our customers then once again, once again, that would be let out, and then it's like we just did all that work for nothing. So yeah, it's hard to know what to say and what not to say.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, I mean that's important. I mean, how about? What is it? The VOIP lines.
Speaker 2:The VoIP lines. Yeah, so VoIP lines I mean in one sense, like we had VoIP lines as a broker. I mean, most people have internet, so it's basically internet over or phone over. Internet is basically what it is. So most people do have that. Now, a driver, really, they should not be having that. I mean they have a cell phone, they're in their truck. They're not having a landline internet Wi-Fi connection, so they should have a cell phone. So I know on the MacroPoint end, we had to have like a new detection so that VoIP pulls up, Because the problem with VoIP and the reason why it's gotten such a bad name is you can manipulate where the location is showing, Just like an IP address.
Speaker 2:How you can manipulate that. You can do the same thing with a VoIP phone number. So that's why, as far as tracking, they really need to have like an actual cell phone, not a VoIP number. They really need to have an actual cell phone, not a VoIP number. And then what's hard is on the onboarding and vetting part, though, because there are so many dispatchers, brokers, they are using internet over or phone over internet. I mean even phone companies are selling that. So it doesn't mean you're a bad guy with that thing. But I really think VoIP as far as a driver should not have a VoIP line. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, you know this technology is taking us by storm and then use it for a benefit and then, at the same time, it could be used against us. Yeah, you really got a challenge ahead of you. I mean, that's, how do you, how do you stay abreast with all the new things, how do you stay up to date with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So one thing that I love, that I think really I've leaned on with my network, with LinkedIn, is or really everywhere I go on my friends or whatever. If they have something that happens to them, I'm typically like now, luckily, I think I've made it enough of a thing where people are calling me or messaging me and saying, hey, this happened to me, can we jump on a call to me? Can we jump on a call? And so, unfortunately, a lot of it is something happened to somebody and I have to hear the whole thing and really dissect what happened to be like, okay, I wonder, if we had this, would that have prevented it? Because they are coming out with things all the time and I we can't predict everything. I mean they're, they're innovative, just like we are. So I think a lot of it is just communication.
Speaker 2:And what's crazy is in the brokerage world, that wasn't a thing prior to, like I probably would say, 2021. It's kind of when everything started, people started to actually talk about what was happening with fraud prior to that, because it really didn't take off till 2020. But prior to that it was always a thing. We always had double brokering, but those were getting actually delivered, so it wasn't like a huge, huge things. And then after 2020, that was like when things get stolen and really cargo theft is the biggest problem, but it all stems from fraud. So really now I think brokers and carriers and shippers were all talking to each other and that and sharing like stories and what's happening. Before everybody was keeping everything super tight, like I'm not sharing anything, you're going to know my trade secrets, but I think that's that's a big thing, is everyone's talking, and then, luckily, people come to me and trust me, where I can learn from that and then share with others kind of what happened right, that's, that's good networking.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, computers talk to each other, so so can humans so, but a lot of humans feel like that's. Nobody wants to hear it. You know to share it.
Speaker 2:Cause, or they're, or they're like embarrassed that it happened to them, Right, Like they're like well, I thought it was the best. Like I told you I was I mean, I had never had anything happen to me other than that one time and I was like God, I really thought so well, and then I had that one guy. I'm like, oh, and I replayed that over and over and over in my head, but it happens to all of us. So I think that's the biggest thing Like you can admit something happened and then really learn from it and teach others from it too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and having a trusted network where you know that you can share. It's just very similar to what people do in support groups, where you know you can be vulnerable.
Speaker 2:And you know you can be vulnerable and be just dismissed.
Speaker 1:You know you're going to actually be taken serious. You know, even if it's something that you know, I know a new driver reached out to me and says man, I had a hard time today. I think I dropped a trailer. I mean the fact that he was able to reach out to me and talk to me about that. I thought that was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very cool. Yeah, having someone to reach out to and talk to is like huge right, like even especially drivers like they're. They're on the road all day long and they're, you know, meeting the other drivers, maybe a truck stop, but they don't really have like a, a go-to person. So that's super great. They're going out to you and talking about it yeah, yeah, so you know, check for damage.
Speaker 1:You know that's, you know, kind of give them an idea of what to do. And and there was no damage. So you know he just felt embarrassed, you, you know. So I mean that's great. What about another post? It was mentioned a shipper lost a load and went missing, but the tracking inside the pallet helped them recover it. Can you give us the case or explain how end pallet tracking is becoming a game changer?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great point there. So I did a webinar with the California Highway Patrol Cargo Theft Task Force. Guys, super great guys, they're like amazing, but there's only four of them that handles all of Southern Cal, which is insane. Like that's like we're 90, I think it's actually 75% or something, of all cargo theft happens in California, most of it in Southern California. So I did a webinar with them and basically they were the ones that really taught me the impalate tracking and how important it is.
Speaker 2:It's important to track the driver that's huge the truck and knowing like where the truck is going, but then really at the end of the day, all we really care about is the cargo right. So I think having what some people do is put a tracker like basically very last pallet on the truck, top thing, so the bad guys are like opening up the doors oh cool, toss it Right, then we're no longer tracking it. So now knowing kind of two things, like having the one that has the light detection, that's on that back one, but then having a second tracking and having it inside the pallet. That way you get the detection hey, doors open, something's going on here and then having that second one that's actually following the freight, because you can call the CHP guys and have all their phone numbers listed on MyCarePortal's website. But give them a call and be like, hey, I know this is where my stuff is.
Speaker 2:They are stealing it as we speak. That's their favorite thing to do Go find the bad guys and get it like. They're like, yeah, let's go. So you give them that call and they're gonna go get it. So, um, I think that's it. It's hard having so many things and of course, there's costs with that. But think about you know how many times you prevent it. Great, but that one time that something happens would have paid for all of the the devices that you, you know, pay for, for tracking and stuff. So it's kind of the next thing that's crazy.
Speaker 1:I mean, you watch some of these videos where people are just emptying out trailers. I don't know what it is. It has to be something inside, because the boxes aren't labeled with pictures or anything like that and they're just grabbing them and it's like well, I think a lot of it.
Speaker 2:They. They find out where shippers are, like the shippers that have the high value stuff, and then they, they just sit there and watch them and then they follow them. I know that they did that with mine, with copper. So we'd have to tell drivers like, hey, drive X amount of miles before stopping and when you do stop, be very careful to look for it. Like, as you're driving, look for those follow cars. You see the same car following you. Like figure something out, because unfortunately that happens. Luckily nowadays they're not doing so much at like gunpoint and stealing trucks. That's kind of less of a thing, because that that is so like that is an actual crime that you can go to prison for and they're just waiting until they can. You know, you park and you you go get a snack, you go get take a shower or whatever, before they grab your, your trailer.
Speaker 1:So that's crazy, yeah, so yeah, I mean that's crazy, yeah. So, yeah, I mean that's dangerous, you know, for the driver, you know he's got people following them, man. So a lot comes to my mind there.
Speaker 2:I know it's wild and, and I think the biggest thing too as, like, a broker or shipper is communicating hey, this is higher value, this is a high risk commodity.
Speaker 2:Because of that, these are the risks that you're taking prior to picking up, right Before you even give out the load.
Speaker 2:The driver needs to know that too, because I mean, really, at the end of the day, his neck is on the line too, just like anybody else's, and so, knowing that and then some drivers that I've met have really been like they specialize in that They're're like, hey, I take, this is what I do as a driver to protect myself.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the big thing with drivers is they need to have a strategy so that when they do get those type of calls, when the shipper or broker is like, hey, this is high value, high risk that you can say, hey, no problem, I'm equipped with that, this is my game plan. When I have a load like this, this is how I treat this. These are the steps that I take to protect myself and the freight, and then you become like a trusted carrier for, especially for those high value. Like I said, I did that all the time and I had my core guys that I was like. I know that they have a process in place. So as a driver, that's like a big tip if you're wanting to have really like elite business.
Speaker 1:What about a macro point? What about MacroPoint? They're saying that if you put the ELD or combine that with the MacroPoint and put it in the palette, close blind spots, especially when stolen loads hit the road and data stops transmitting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so MacroPoint just recently did an update. It's called Fraud Guard now that they have added onto their platform. But so a couple of things. Now we're wanting to track by ELD. That's like the big thing. If a phone dies, then you still have tracking because it's through their ELD. Macropoint's big on. You're not being tracked 24 hours a day, you're only being tracked on whenever you're on that shipment. That's like a big legal obligation I guess that they're big on. I know some platforms out there don't do that. They track them all the time. Backup Point's big on that.
Speaker 2:But there's several detections that when we are tracking that we're checking. A lot of it's AI driven too. So it's very subjective instead of, or it's very objective instead of subjective. So we're seeing like actual data points like this guy's deviating from the path he's going. He should not be going to towards Minnesota whenever he's supposed to be going from Georgia to Texas. Right, he should not be way up in the Midwest. So giving you those detection points as soon as we see them, even like I mentioned the VoIP numbers, like if the phone number is a VoIP, if they're doing app tracking, like hey, something's off here, they shouldn't be having a VoIP, and then even like.
Speaker 2:One thing that's really cool is if a carrier has, let's say, five trucks on their ELD, but then they're being asked to track on 10 loads, how are they like? Their capacity isn't there. What is happening? Are they double brokering to somebody else? Maybe they do happen to have different trailers that are sitting there, but your delivery is supposed to be the same day, so it's having not only having the red flags, but then on top of that, that, I think the biggest thing is you need to keep having a conversation with the carriers just to confirm like, yeah, these guys really are doing something bad, because most of the time you confront the bad guy, they're like oh, I'm not going to get past this guy, let's go on to the next joe that I could, you know, pull one over, so wow yeah, that's, that's definitely something I mean.
Speaker 1:I speaking of self-driving trucks or, I guess, driverless trucks they want to call it. I know that's a pretty rad thing to see nobody in the driver's seat. It looks cool, eye-catching. I saw some of your posts too. You got to do some right in the car. You did like the Waymo or something like that. Like the Waymo or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did the one in Phoenix, but I'm in Atlanta and they're actually doing some in Atlanta now, but it's through Uber, I think, anyways. But no, it's wild. And what's crazy is when you're sitting in there, I guess, because it's AI and it learned from humans. Like as it turns right or left, you know how you like kind of hesitate before you turn and you're like checking, you know it does the same hesitation. So if you close your eyes, like it's, you're like is this a person? It's wild, but it's super cool.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, you think about that in the future. When it comes to fraud, someone mentioned to me that those drivers' trucks will have a hard time because of fraud. What is your take on that? What do you think you know the value of that transport without a human factor in there? Um, the criminals may look at a lot different as to how aggressive they want to be yeah, true, and I guess, sorry.
Speaker 2:I guess you watch like those like the you know mission impossible movies or whatever type of action movie out there and they're like hacking into whatever to get into this or get into that. That's, I guess, where my first thought goes. Are they going to hack into this robotic car and then tell it to go somewhere else? Is that a possibility? How do they prevent that? Or even like if it? I mean really it's not having to ever stop right, it just keeps going. So I guess we'd have to refill. I don't know how that would work, but I could definitely see holes that would have to be really vetted through. But potentially you don't have that human element at all. So then maybe that would eliminate fraud more, because you're not having the scare of who is this company like, you're actually seeing the truck and you know what truck that's owned by and that type of thing, instead of just on the driver level.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's, it's, it's really, it's a topic you wonder, you know, because they've been doing it the other way with the human factor for so many years.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, all of a sudden, we're going to change and do something different. What, what, what did we miss?
Speaker 2:Do we miss something, or yeah, right, so it could be great, but who knows?
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. So advanced vetting strategies at the end of a long shift, like 5 pm Friday before a holiday? You said fraud can spike because people turn off their human alerts. Yeah, but what deeper systems or routes or do companies need to guard against that fatigue?
Speaker 2:So I think the biggest thing is it's a culture within your company Like it's less on hey, it's Friday at 4 pm and or 4.59 or whatever, everyone's about to leave, they got kids that they got to go grab, or whatever it's more of. It's a culture standpoint Like, hey, this is our standard, we're not deviating from the from that standard. Even if it's like, hey, I got to call the customer and say, hey, this happened to us, I'm gonna have to reschedule or something's gonna have to happen because I'm not taking that risk on that freight. I care about the freight enough.
Speaker 2:The best, the only good thing about fraud right now is that shippers are being are learning and they're being impacted too. So a lot of times they'll have that conversation with you. It just kind of depends on your relationship with them. So I think that's the biggest thing. And then, like I said, with the culture knowing, as a rep, like at my old company, I knew if I did not hit all my checkmarks and something happened to my load, I was getting in huge trouble for it.
Speaker 2:It wasn't just like a oh well, you know, whoops, that happens, you know it's fraud. It was like it was coming down on me, or at least I felt like it. Whenever that did happen to me, I'm like, hey, I followed our process to a T, but I didn't know about this. You know that can happen, of course, but I think it's. You have my process. That you're following on every single load Does not matter if you've worked with them before. Having a process for you've worked with this carrier before and having a process for it as a brand new carrier is huge and sticking to that every single time and really drilling it into your employee's brain basically Nice.
Speaker 1:You emphasized the human element, asking for VIN verification, speaking directly with drivers, cross-checking documents. How do you coach teams to follow up on software flex?
Speaker 2:So, specifically with the VIN verification, um, how that works is with my care portal. You type in the driver's phone number. They get a text that says, hey, send in a picture of your truck. Show on your vin number. They take that picture of their like door panel and get sent in. We run that vin, who does it belong to? And then where is the guy?
Speaker 2:Um, so, with that information, the biggest thing is ai is not quite there to tell us if it's an actual picture of the truck or if it's a picture of, like a insurance something, and basically it's just reading, it's looking for a VIN. We are working on enhancing our AI so that it can read if it's an actual truck and, like if it's beveled and all that stuff too. But that's kind of the biggest thing. Like, because AI is not 100%, it still takes that human element. Like, still look at that email that you receive and see like, oh, this is a picture of this. Okay, I need know, do this and that or whatever. So technology is great, but it's not going to replace humans. It's a human. There's always going to be that human element, kind of double check. But you're taking so much time away, um, with having some things automated.
Speaker 1:So nice when you think about those pictures. I see videos where they're peeling off the the vent and on door, you know, instead of it being pinstriped on or vinyl.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's cardboard with masking tape.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:When you see that, what does that tell you? Because when I see that, I see something yeah.
Speaker 2:To me it's really sketchy. Yeah, To me it's really sketchy, but I know it's like. I've heard legitimate drivers are like no, you have to do that because you're doing this and that I don't know. I'm like if this happened to me, I'd be like super like you're not my freight and the cargo task force guys from CHP. They were like what's crazy is there'll be like a load stolen or something, and they'll go to the warehouse and they'll talk to the dock worker and they're like hey, did you notice that the truck had a piece of paper or cardboard placked up? They're like well, yeah, and then they're like was that not just like, would you not ask more questions? Or say like what, what is going on here? They're like no, and so I think as hard as like a broker for, for instance, because you're not seeing that firsthand but as a shipper and a dock worker, I think that's kind of a whole nother topic of like culture change.
Speaker 2:But these guys are warehouse dock workers. You know they're not making a ton of money. They're like hey, I'm loading the truck and I'm moving out with my day, right? So I think it's. It depends on your culture, on your company and how you're teaching them Because even if, like, rejecting trucks should be more of a, should be more of a thing, you should be rejecting more trucks than I think we do in the industry. So that's my two cents.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's wild, here it is. Let's just take it. You know, is the easy way always the easy way, or is the easy way the hard way? Right, you could be actually making things a lot harder for yourself. Yeah, because when I see that, I'm like man, as a company, I want to take pride in that. That door real estate, that's your one of your main ways of advertising for yourself. So, yeah, I like, I like it when I see trucks where it's all pinned up, nice, you know right, just my opinion well and trucks are super expensive.
Speaker 2:So it's like, yeah, brand that thing up and you know, having cart like they're it's. To me it's very weird. If there's car like nine times out of ten nine point, five times out of ten I'm like, ah, I'm not using that truck.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you're also not there all the time yeah, I mean, let's raise the bar in the industry. I think that's good for us to to, I guess. Uh, good peer pressure is always good, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's. That's definitely a change we can make. And even like I don't know, whenever, bullying is obviously not good, right, but as, like a truck driver, you're at a truck stop and you see somebody have like cardboard, be like man would be like man. What's going on here? Right, why don't you guys get that painted on? I just think stuff like that, like it, encourages people to like take pride in things and like, hey, yeah, I should have this, like this. It's not like, I guess it's not really bullying, but you know what I mean. Like kind of like a tease a little bit, and then maybe that's how things can start changing.
Speaker 1:I don't know, just thinking outside of my mind. Yeah, just asking a question can bring attention to something, like you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot of hygiene things that we can do better with too.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm Yep.
Speaker 1:Definitely I could have a whole episode on that one.
Speaker 2:Oh, really, I'll have to listen to that.
Speaker 1:I'm sure I can't even imagine, like as a driver, like I've never got to do that, but as a driver, what all you see in other people and you're like, whoa, you know, yeah, it's, it's no end. And so this is I get.
Speaker 2:I'll get videos from from other drivers, um, when they go to the restroom. Oh wow, I didn't hear man. Yeah, that's wild, I just yeah. But most people are like living at the most people are like living at home, like that right, and they're not going anywhere. But some of those people go on the road too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. Cleaning yourself, washing yourself in the bathroom versus the shower, shower rooms, I guess, is more of the puzzling part that never ends.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:All right Back to fraud Leadership and culture of prevention. To you know, you help start the fraud freight fraud task force and champion awareness through panels like Freight Waves F3, sirius XM. Why is education so essential as tools for for your company or for yourself, and it's so essential as tools for your company or for yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think always listening to like if you see like a podcast or another conference that has another seminar on fraud, I mean I will say, like I said, I've been to like so far this year I think I'm at six conferences and so, like every time I attend the fraud thing or I'm speaking on it, a lot of it's the same, but you may pick up on like a couple little things like oh, I can actually do that a little bit different in my process. Or like, hey, if I were to ask this question instead of this question, maybe I'd get more out of it, type thing. So I think education is huge because, like I mentioned earlier, like now, the community is really talking to each other and those who are speaking and things like that, most of the time they're they have enough collective information or stories that they're really going off of. Like I just did a webinar the other day about creating your own SOP. So having like a process in place where you know this, this is our standard and you have in that in a document form like this is our standard that everyone's following. So even just like having tips on that, like a lot of that.
Speaker 2:Wasn't me that knew all this. I learned from other people in the industry or other sitting and watching podcasts or this and that. So I think education is huge and, like I said too, it's always changing. They're always coming up with something new, kind of like the situation I had with that one load I had no idea that the FMCSA was getting hacked. So if I would have known that prior to if somebody told me or I was listening or I was educated on that, I would have had that whole thing prevented.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about the FMCSA. They're trying to reduce some things. I've caught wind that they're trying to reduce, maybe or take away the MC number and just leave it at the USDOT number. Is that real?
Speaker 2:They're talking about it. Um, I talked with uh the director over there, uh ken riddle, with fmcsa. They've been talking about it for a while. I don't see how that's really possible. I think it's more of a. I think it's actually opens you up more to fraud too, because it it's hard as a if you're just reading dot numbers or and not mcs.
Speaker 2:That's hard for, like for the intra and interstate carriers, knowing the difference. That's kind of like me as a rep, that was my first indicator. If they didn't have an MC, they're like oh, I only can haul them in this state or whatever. So that, and then you know it was interesting as they're trying to make it where, because right now they have three different systems that are supposed to all talk to each other but they're from like the 1980 systems. It's insane they are changing all of them into one system. So that way whenever, like right now for instance, we're gathering information from all three systems, but it will be like sometimes conflicting information because it's not synced up in real time. So going into one system I think will be big, and so I think that was part of their idea with the one system is it'd be easier for all their databases to flow together if it's by DOT and not MC. But I don't have an actual update on that, but they've been talking about it forever. We'll see.
Speaker 1:All right. Thanks for giving your input and your opinions value, you know, because it could either make it a job harder or it can make it easier. We don't know something to talk about. So awesome Right. You've built relationships and communities through webinars, podcasts, even golf days.
Speaker 2:I do not play golf. That is on my, that's on my vision board, which is back here. I want to learn how to play golf, but I, but we sponsor golf holes, which is really fun.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how does that network make it anti-fraud mission more effective? So, really, my goal is to talk to as many people as I can, educate as many people as I can make it. Where, like I said, they're coming to me with stories, just like how you had drivers reaching out to you, I want people to tell me what happened so that way I can learn from it, because really, I'm a nerd with all this fraud talk. It's so interesting to me and there's always something new that has happened. So please tell me. I want to be the first to know, right? So having a network helps you with that. And, as a regular Joe that's not doing podcasts and webinars, even having a network on like following people who are experts on that all the different people. I think that we all share valuable information. So Nice.
Speaker 1:It's funny how words change. I like being you know. I like the word nerd. I wish I could be a podcast nerd. That's good. That's good. The more we know, the more we obtain, the more we can help others and save a lot of money. Save costs bring the cost of goods to a better place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you want to know something interesting. I just learned the cost of goods. Everything that we buy Companies. Of course they're not eating those stolen loads or whatever, they're just hiking at pricing. So it's actually 20% extra is being added to all of our goods is the average. So everything that we're buying right now. How inflation is so bad? So inflation is bad. But then they're also hiking things up 20% because of fraud Crazy.
Speaker 1:But then, they're also hiking things up 20% because of fraud Crazy. Wow. That's undercurrent because everybody's talking about the one topic and they're not really whether seeing the other one, but they're talking about the more inflation topic. But what about the fraud and theft and vandalism? I mean, is it worth it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's wild to me that it's not talked about, and I think that's one of my, like my goal on my vision board. It's where I want to make, I want to be talking on, you know, mainstream news and like educating and like, hey, this is what's going on. Because I think, like, as I meet even just regular people outside of logistics, everybody in logistics knows about fraud, right, but I'll tell my grandma, like what I'm doing, everybody in logistics knows about fraud, right. But I'll tell my grandma, like what I'm doing, and she is like what are you talking about? I didn't even know this happened, right. And I'm like, well, it's affecting your pocket 20%. So I think the more we talk about it to everybody that we know, you know, the better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's even like the thing with the hygiene, and when I talk about that, people think, man, what are you doing out there? Yeah, this is just what's going on. I mean I, this is my environment, that's my work area no, I totally mean making it up. You know like you got stories. You just like telling stories.
Speaker 2:You're joking well, what's crazy too is that you could be talking to like a regular joe and then their brother or something, or their brother, their, their brother's brother, whatever, like cousins, whatever they do that, and then they're like they talk about it to that person. Then like, oh well, actually you know that was, that was me, but now you know, I'm hearing this from this angle, give a different perspective, so never know who you're going to affect.
Speaker 1:That's right. Um, thank you so much Lessons learned. I wish, uh, I knew. Thank you so much lessons learned. I wish, uh, I knew it sooner. What about that? I mean you've, uh, you've helped so many people. You know, I think one that says fake it till you make it with the confidence in vetting. Can you explain that mindset plays into fraud prevention trying?
Speaker 2:to get on from out of here no, I think the, I think the whole like it till you make it thing is really digging into like having a conversation, and a lot of it, especially like as a brand new person in the logistics, it's where you're trying to learn and you have that sense. You know you need that like intuition, I guess is the right word. So a lot of it is fake it till you make it. But following, hopefully your boss at least has a process in place for you to follow and have like a guideline. But if not, go out there and and, like I said, listen to all the things and do that. But then a lot of it is experience and a lot of it is intuition. So I think, until then, ask all the questions, be super annoying to these dispatchers or drivers or drivers, be super annoying to brokers. Ask all the questions, I mean it. You have to do those extra steps to do that vetting.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so that's amazing. If you were to go back, let's say you know, I know we talked about a lot of great things, um, on the front lines, brokerage and vetting, tech, education. If you were to look back and at your younger self uh, something that you thought you wish you knew right what would you say? What's some of the misconceptions or best practices that you would want to share with those newer brokers?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing as a newer broker was thinking that I knew it all, or thinking that because I don't know anything, that I really don't have any information, so kind of like along those same lines, like I was just talking to fake it till you make it thing. I think that was probably the. If I could talk to my younger self and be like hey, you don't know everything, you need to listen and absorb like a sponge and you know kind of on top of that, do additional research outside of what my company's providing me. If I could go back, that would be my unfortunately. I'm very confident, but I should have In some ways. It hurts, right, you got to step back and be like you know you actually should listen to this and lean into that, learn more about that.
Speaker 1:For owner-operators with small fleets that are tuning in and listening, what's one thing you would say that you would implement today that could save them down the road or possibly save a load?
Speaker 2:Biggest thing that I've seen with drivers and kind of seems like common sense which but it's surprising how much I hear about this is whenever they're delivering a load and it is like all of a sudden they show up and it's for like another, like a U-Haul trailers backing into them and they're wanting to transload it to a U-Haul. That should be like huge red flags. What in the world's going on? I actually had a driver that was filmed. He filmed that happen and as he's filming it, he was like I don't have a good feeling about this and you're like then why did he do it?
Speaker 2:So I think, with owner operators or any type of carrier, no matter the fleet size, it's a lot of it.
Speaker 2:You guys are front lines Like. You guys are seeing things more than we're talking about and what I see, like I, if I were to, I feel like being in a truck for a month I would have learned more about fraud than what I know now. So I know they see things and it's kind of like the if it seems weird, if it seems too good to be true. You know, like a, like a load that's through the roof price-wise, it's probably too good to be true, right? So I think just knowing, like, use some common sense in that way, and then also doing your extra work to call the call, that, like you receive a rate sheet, let's make a phone call instead of just emailing and saying like, hey, I got your rate sheet and I want to make sure that you got my signed rate sheet back, whatever the conversation is, just doing that extra step on calling their main number Either you find it on Google or you find on FMCSA website and verify like hey, this is them. They actually got it. It's not somebody posing as a broker.
Speaker 1:Nice. I think, instinctively, as humans, some people are built that way. They want to avoid confrontation. I mean, they've come up with the term what a Karen?
Speaker 2:You don't want to be Karen, but you also don't want to be the guy that's like I I'm talking about right now. You're filming and you're like this doesn't seem right, Like you don't want to be that guy either. So I think sometimes it's where you just gotta, you gotta take that extra initiative. Yeah, Sometimes it's where you just got to.
Speaker 1:You got to take that extra initiative.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ask the right questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, get others involved. That can help you. And it goes back to that networking. That's why podcasting has got to be so popular is that you don't feel so much alone. You're not just listening to one message. You can listen to multiple messages and multiple people to help you. You know, get through those rough times or or to celebrate those victories Right, definitely, wow. So and I kind of close it up with that I mean you've covered quite a bit. I'm sure you're going to do more on your show. I love running into you at Matt's. I thought that was a special moment there as well with that movement. So keep up the exposure, getting out there talking to people. I think you're doing a great job inspiring, and a lot of people follow you. You know how can you find?
Speaker 1:you what's a what's a good way to reach out to you? What's your main go-to?
Speaker 2:My main, it would be LinkedIn. Um, so yeah, linkedin. Danielle Spine Definitely or you can find me on some of my podcasts is Tell Me Everything. I have a LinkedIn on that, which will also have the Frog Girl stuff on there too. Yeah, that's probably the best way you can also message me there too. I'm always answering and jumping on phone calls and all that stuff, like you message me on LinkedIn, and here we are Right.
Speaker 1:You go. That's the spot. So, daniel, it's been. It's been packed with insight. The conversation has been great. I love sharing not just the tools but also the lessons you've learned, maybe the hard way. A lot of people maybe can learn from that as well. So, for everyone listening, take what Danielle says to heart. Everything she means comes from a great place. Avoiding freight fraud is going to be our key point as humans to help fight against tech that the bad guys use. So make sure you bring your awareness and your systems in place to keep those lows getting delivered. Yeah, what's one step? Oh, go ahead. You had something else. No, you're good. Go ahead. Yeah. And what's one step that someone should take after hearing this episode? What would you say that someone should take after hearing this episode?
Speaker 2:What would you say? One step would be to take a look at your process and see, or like what you normally do and see like what can I improve on and what's maybe one thing I can add into that that will help me stay one step ahead of fraud.
Speaker 1:Nice. There you go, so I love it All right. Well, big thanks to you, danielle. I appreciate you coming on the show sharing your insights and energy for everyone out there ready to level up. Check out the carts, my carrier portals, training wire bees, real time vetting and get plugged into freight fraud task force. And also you can watch out for Danielle's podcast. That's coming up too. That's going to be great. Get the first episode, yeah. So thank you, danielle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:All right, well, see you next time. And that's Delivered.
