JD's Journal

Everyone we know has experienced their unique journey of life, and along the way they have had their share of success and failure. Each of us have learned important lessons and gathered valuable resources that have allowed us to survive and thrive. This podcast is a place for sharing our stories and our resources for the benefit of others. It's a celebration of the resilience and tenacity of people in all walks of life, our local heroes.

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JD's Journal

Jillian Reilly: 10 Permissions

October 31, 2025 • John 'jd' Dwyer • Season 2 • Episode 13

The ground is shifting faster than our old rulebook can keep up, and pretending we can project-manage our way to certainty only makes us brittle. Today we sit down with author, activist, and leadership coach Jillian Reilley to unpack why lasting transformation starts with self-permission rather than big budgets, and how a life built on small, intentional experiments can outperform the grand five-year plan.

Jillian’s story begins in post-apartheid Africa, where hope and hardship lived side by side. Those years taught her a hard lesson: institutions can fund programs, but they can’t grant consent. Whether it’s international aid or a corporate change initiative, the real turning point happens in private—within families, teams, and the inner conversation we have with ourselves. That insight powers her new book, The Ten Permissions, a provocative set of invitations designed to help us navigate a fluid world: Go Astray to shed linear myths, Think Small to iterate like a pro, and Feel Your Way to move beyond over-analysis and into embodied action.

We dive into AI anxiety and name the uncomfortable truth: if your value is repeatable, a machine will eventually do it. The way forward isn’t fear; it’s accelerated human learning—curiosity, sense-making, creativity, and connection. Jillian shares practical rituals that keep you grounded under pressure, from walking and breathwork to micro-steps that silence the inner critic through momentum. We also talk about education’s urgent update, shifting from memorizing facts to practicing navigation skills so young people can thrive in ambiguity.

If you’ve felt “off-script” lately, this conversation will feel like both validation and a roadmap. You’ll leave with language for what you’re experiencing, permission to play a different game, and concrete ways to build a career and life that adapt as fast as the world does.

Resources from this episode:

John: 0:02

Hi listeners and welcome back to the JD's Journal Podcast. As always, I appreciate you joining us. It's fantastic to have you here. Our guest today, or my guest today, is an author, an activist, and a leadership facilitator and coach who migrated from the USA to the African continent during some of the most tumultuous and interesting times there. You know, apartheid had just ended, Nelson Mandela was selected, and the countries of Africa were seeing a rush of international investment and interest in both industry but also the aid efforts that were going on there. So Gillian Riley spent a significant portion of her life working and writing from Africa. And her most recent book, The Ten Permissions, is a culmination of the perspectives and insights that she's gathered and gained from her experiences there. And these allow or they invite the reader to adopt a more enlightened mindset for the world that they live in today. And we're going to be spending quite a bit of the podcast today talking to Gillian about that book. I have the quick guide here, which we'll share with you as well. I'm fascinated by these things because they in many ways challenge the conventional thinking that I've been kind of exposed to all through my career. Some really interesting ones there. So we'll talk about those. But anyway, Gillian, did I introduce you okay? Um, what would you like to fill in the blanks on that?

Jillian: 1:27

No, John, you introduced me perfectly. Thank you so much for having me here. Yeah, I mean, my my my story is one of, you know, traveling very far away. Uh from where I was born, uh, very much writing my own story, if you will, uh departing from convention, departing from expectation to create a life that really evolved as I went along. I can say that um and went through so many unbelievably interesting and fulfilling different chapters. And I think we're gonna get into it just now. But yeah, I I think in many ways that's what I'm sort of driven to do now is to help other people do the same. So I'm looking forward to chatting to you.

John: 2:13

You are an adventurer, it sounds like. And so I'm keen to hear more about that. So that's a great catalyst for the question I always open up my episodes with. And that is we have a sense of what you do. We're gonna explore more about what you do specifically in detail, but I'm always keen to know like what's what's the in the engine there? What's driving you? And for that, like the question is what's Jillian's greater purpose? What's the legacy that you want to leave in your wake?

Jillian: 2:42

Yeah, million-dollar question. I I think if I look back on my not only my work, but my life in general, um I I've spent most of it sort of helping people navigate profound change in their lives. And that was what compelled me to leave the middle of America to go to South Africa, as it was in the midst of change. And I think at that very young age, I was 21 years old, you know, I was fascinated by almost the mechanics of it.

John: 3:15

Yeah.

Jillian: 3:16

Um, at the time they were talking about the new South Africa, and it was like, wow, can you remake a country? And if you if you unpack that, you know, can you then remake all the individuals in it, the relationships, the patterns that have shaped um the way the country has evolved today? Can you, you know, put it on a new course? And while that wasn't, you know, my role to play, I was there to witness it, to learn from it, to play whatever role I could play. And I think for me, a sense of of what drives me is sort of helping people, including myself, um, to lead a life that feels like it is a reflection of your unique offer, your unique gifts, your unique talents to unlock what I think is all of our capability to drive growth and change in our lives. Um, and in so doing, help people find you know more of their unique expression. And historically, that you know, wasn't encouraged. We were we were sort of rewarded in many ways for stifling some of our uniqueness and some of our own desires. And the backdrop to the 10 permissions is we're living in a moment where things are unraveling around us. So, can we take um advantage of this time, if you will, to really um dig into ourselves a little bit more and give ourselves permission to create lives that serve us and suit this moment? So, yeah, helping people write their own stories.

John: 4:57

It's definitely a time for different thinking. There's no question about the fact that we are going through radical change uh globally. There's so much happening at once. Uh, and so definitely keen to explore that with you. Was there a was there a moment in time when you understood that this was your your purpose? Like as you just said, you you made a decision at 21 years of age to leave the convenience and conformity of the USA to move to a place that is so different. You know, I've I've spent time in Tanzania back in 2013. I've been to Cape Town a few times, and I love Cape Town because it actually feels like very Australian in many ways, but but it's different. It's so significantly different. And I have to imagine that back then, you know, the difference was even more severe. So, you know, when and and like how did that come about in terms of your decision making?

Jillian: 5:53

Um I guess one thing I do want to say is that, you know, I I find for me, purpose is a feeling more than an idea. Um, I struggle at times, and I know others do, to kind of put words, neat words, to purpose, but I I find the feeling of it sort of undeniable when I am working in alignment with what I think my purpose is. When I started to discover it at that early age, there was uh a real sense of sort of vitality as I stepped into new places where I was um in sort of what I would describe a really active learning mode. You know, I was curious, I was taking things in. Um, I felt like I was sort of capable of doing more than maybe I had previously imagined. And all of those feelings were, you know, incredibly virtuous and incredibly rewarding. And I knew I wanted more of them.

John: 6:59

Right.

Jillian: 6:59

So I wasn't gonna turn back on that. And I couldn't, you know, I at that point I wasn't sitting there and saying, oh, I think I want to spend my whole life helping people navigate change. Like I don't think it works that way. You can't necessarily, you know, you you can often only see it in the rearview mirror that, oh, this is what I was doing, this is what I was discovering. But the feeling of it was one of sort of uh potency and possibility. And those were things that I didn't want to leave behind. And so as I discover and rediscover the current articulation of my purpose at different points of my life, because I do think it evolves in the way that we experience it and express it, I often look to how I'm feeling to kind of guide me as opposed to whether or not I can put a neat label to it or explain it to other people in a way that makes absolute sense. Because, you know, sometimes I can't, but I know that what I'm feeling is what I want to be feeling, and so I'm gonna go and pursue more of it.

John: 8:12

I I think what you said, Jillian, is so spot on. I really do. And I think that um it it is sometimes disingenuous to ask people about their purpose in that context, because I I think often we aren't sure why uh why we're in flow, and I'll use that term because I do think what you're describing is that is that sense that people have when things are effortless or where motivation comes and you just feel empowered and and the hard stuff doesn't frighten you because you feel like you you you're on the right course. Uh it's kid it's that's like hearing you you talk about, and it's uh it's akin to a lot of conversations I have with people about career planning, and that is tell me about those times in your life when you felt like you were unstoppable, because that's where the clues are in terms of where people's strengths are. So I think that's that's fascinating. Can you like again? I think for a lot of people who've whether they've been to Africa recently or not, to that time, can you describe what it was like, you know, on the ground when you first arrived in Africa? You know, what was the environment like? What what what surprised you? What gave you hope?

Jillian: 9:22

Oh, well, I mean, uh I would just call it so sort of ripe with possibility. I think people felt this tremendous sense of um the opportunity to um explore new ways of showing up with each other without you know the history always preceding them. And of course, you know, that wasn't something that happened overnight. In fact, it isn't even something that's happened, you know, multiple decades later. But at that moment, it was like, oh wow, are we really reinventing this as we go? Can we do that? Or will we always be defined by the past? And I think, you know, again, I'm gonna keep tying like threads between and among things uh in my work and in the world. I feel like we're in a similar moment right now. Um, and and many of us always are. Like, am I only a product of what's come before, whether that's in my own life or my family or my culture or my history, or do I actually have you know a greater degree of control, if you will, or choice over how I move forward? And I think for a place that had experience where so many people had felt they didn't have any choices for so much of their lives, this moment of wait a second, are we collectively choosing um to try to rewrite this? Wow, I mean, that felt super exciting. Um, it felt incredibly alive, it felt, you know, uh fizzy with like possibility, maybe in an overblown way, because of course history would go on to prove that reinvention is a very fraught exercise. Um but but you know, for a 21-year-old from St. Louis, Missouri, uh I was hooked. This was exciting. Um and frankly, having grown up with people who had bought a sort of Midwestern success story, hook, line, and sinker, and asked no questions about it, never really even suggested that there were any alternatives to kind of be amongst people who were actively engaged with, hey, what do we want for the future? felt, you know, frankly, more full of possibility than it did back home. So um I felt incredibly lucky to be there. And I'm looking back, I it was probably the best choice I ever made in my in my young life. Um, because it just opened doors that I couldn't even, I didn't even know were there.

John: 12:18

And it comes through so strongly, uh, Jillian, as you talk about this, the you know, you you can feel it, uh, the the influence it had on you. Uh in your uh your TEDx talk, your Cape Town uh talk, uh you talked about the the juxtaposition, if you like, of the of the kind of hardships that the locals were going through, the horrific conditions that in many cases that they were going through at the same time as as the international wealth was coming in and there was an opulence and so forth in terms of the conditions there. And those things coexisted. And I've certainly in my own uh world travels as well, I've observed the same the same you know situation occur. It's it's quite interesting. I I'm curious um how how has that influenced the person that you are today and your focus today when you think about that?

Jillian: 13:12

Oh, well, it caused me to uh ask deep questions of myself in terms of my own role in creating change, in facilitating change. I mean, it was deeply humbling. Um, you know, I called my book Shame, Confessions of an Aid Worker in Africa, and a lot of people said, Oh, you're being very hard on yourself. And I said, Well, I feel ashamed. I feel proud in different ways. It's a complex picture, but um, you know, uh, I was part, I eventually sort of found work and a career, if you will, in sort of monetized reinvention, you know, people who put a lot of money behind the idea that you could sort of fuel and offer this supply side uh change. Like we'll throw lots of money at the problem in hopes that it works. It didn't, it doesn't. Um so it was humbling, it was disillusioning, it caused me to step very much off of that path of saying, oh, I, you know, I got a big job when I was very young running a multi-million dollar HIV AIDS project. And I quickly realized that, you know, I didn't want to be a bureaucrat in that industry. Um, so I think it it provided more questions and answers, but it certainly uh left a deep imprint of um always wanting to be very circumspect and very aware of my own role within any sort of change process, that I am always an outsider coming into other human beings who are trying to find their way through something brand new. So that was really again the roots of this book, The Ten Permissions, because one of the things I realized was that we were giving all sorts of things to people, but we couldn't give them permission. We couldn't be the green light to change that I think we kind of assumed we were. Um, because it's it's a very complex negotiation with self and it's a complex negotiation with others. And as a bunch of you know, well-to-do outsiders, we were not going to get into that conversation. So um it it made me focus in even more on the role of the individual and him or herself in trying to um kind of green light action to change. And that focus, you know, obviously continues up until today.

John: 15:54

So I'm I'm really curious, you know. I think a couple of things happening that that always happened, but certainly at the moment with what's happening around around the world right now, and particularly with social media, I think we have a tendency to see these issues as almost two-dimensional. We like to put things in a simple bucket and describe things the way they are, and and it's not that way. It's never that way. I think you make that point really, really well. But it's almost counterintuitive to say that money doesn't solve the problem because the simple mind says you throw money at it, you build buildings, you put aid stations in, you provide food, and the world becomes a better place. But I think what you're describing is that the money's fruitless without cultural change. Is that is that the heart of what you're saying there?

Jillian: 16:39

Yeah, um, I think it's it's uh I think that there are um very complex long-term processes that have to take place at a really, if I can even say intimate level within families, within couples, within individuals. And it's very hard for a big machine to make those things happen. Right. That big machine is impatient, you know, it wants visible results, it wants tangible inputs and outcomes. And, you know, I would I would say that you could take that same idea, we're talking about the world of aid, and bring it right down to an organizational change effort. I would say exactly the same. You know, how many, maybe the budget's slightly smaller, same theme. I can come in with all the good intentions and all the resources and have a big kickoff meeting and shout as much as I want. But each one of these people who's involved is going through something. And it's uh attention at that level is hard when what you're trying to do is make big visible change. Um, and even for individuals who are buying expensive coaches or doing all these things to try to create external pressure. That external pressure that we want to believe is going to be the spark very often isn't. There's an internal spark that needs to come for somebody to decide, yeah, I'm I'm I'm in, I'm on board, or I'm going. Um, and I think we often overestimate the role of all of those external factors, and we attend far too little to the conversations that individuals are having with themselves when nobody else is around.

John: 18:35

That's so interesting. And and I love the correlation back to uh change management um because it it's factual. What you're talking about, I see happen at a much obviously a micro level compared to a situation like uh the African continent, but I see it all the time. Whereas if you don't win the hearts and minds of the of the employees around the change, it doesn't matter how much you spend on branding, how much you spend on project management, you know, it it's it'll fail. It'll it'll ultimately fail unless you can win people over and not only empower them or mandate them, but actually get them to be enthusiastic about the change and to embrace the change. Um and that's tough. I think it's the hardest thing that you do in a leadership capacity is to drive that cultural change. Um I can't I can't fathom what it takes to change the mindset of an entire you know population.

Jillian: 19:34

Yeah, it's uh well, I mean, there are there are only a small handful of examples that I think one could point to. Um and you know, I think there's and it takes a long time. I mean, I think we all of us have lived through examples, you know, whether it's our attitude towards smoking, our attitude towards using seat belts, our attitude, you know, we have lived through those, but if we think about them, they're not two-year projects. Um, you know, they are long-term sort of engagements that have constant reinforcement. And and those examples aren't even great ones because they're all about sort of stopping or starting something that's quite tangible. So, you know, those are things that we can get our heads around. Whereas a lot of the more complex things, um, there is a great family planning, it was one of the great success stories in much of southern Africa around change, because you know, there was a commodity that was quite clearly going to benefit certain people. There was a lot of cultural change that had to happen around that, but the work was put in, but that was even that, you know, over decades. That was not a cool, we've got two years or six months and a big fat budget, let's go make it happen. Um, so you know, we are constantly living through sort of generational shifts, and you know, it it it never fails to surprise us, and yet it happens all the time. Um, and we're living through a very profound one now, I think. But uh yeah, it's it's uh I I think we we would love to believe that there are these levers that we pull and human beings respond to them, and we don't. We're far more complex than that. And so, you know, I think if you talk about my sense of purpose as well, I I engage myself with sort of a different take on change and how we make it happen. Like at this stage in my career, I want to have more real conversations about how we make change in this world because I think we've been we haven't um I don't think we've even I think there's so much more to learn and there's so much more to experiment around in that regard.

John: 22:01

Was I want to ask last one last question before we move on to your new book because I'm dying to get to that. Um, but is that the foundation of of why you wrote shame? Was the lessons learnt and and the observations that you want others going into this to understand? Is that what shame is all about?

Jillian: 22:22

Yeah, and I think I felt like a little bit of a fraud because you know, I'd go back to the United States and people would be like, Oh my god, you're amazing. And I was sort of like, well, okay, but it's again, you know, one, I've I'm very well remunerated. I've got a big fat 401k, I'm not Mother Teresa. Um, two, this is a business. This is a business, make no mistake. Yeah, um, I am an employee in an industry, I am not some sort of you know archangel. And guess what? It's a business that, if it had been judged by uh you know traditional business metrics, wouldn't probably be around. So let's look at this picture and understand what this is about. Um, and and I also want to say I never uh witnessed corruption, I never witnessed uh uh you know dire mismanagement. I didn't. I'm not throwing aid into that bucket that's become fashionable over the last you know several years. It wasn't that, it was just that the whole endeavor was, to me, not nearly thoughtful enough, not nearly engaged enough with the realities versus the you know the fantasy of what we thought we were gonna do there.

John: 23:45

I think that makes a lot of sense. The little bit of work with NGOs, and what I have always found is that people don't go into being an NGO unless they care about something. They actually don't, they go in for the right reasons.

Jillian: 23:56

Absolutely.

John: 23:57

Um not always great business managers, unfortunately. Um, and so that's a challenge. Um and I can I can see what you're talking about there. Let's um let's move to your book. So, you know, uh, as I said, I've I've looked through the permissions. I haven't read the book fully yet. Um I will because I'm I'm I'm in love with it uh in terms of the concept. Uh can you share a little bit about you know the book and how did these permissions come together and and what's what's the goal? What are you trying to achieve with the book?

Jillian: 24:30

Yeah. Um I started to write it during COVID uh when it felt like uh you know something pretty fundamental was shifting in how the world operated. And it had been for some time, and this was now an accelerated period of disorientation around okay, how you know, how do things work? What are the rules? And it it threw into question a lot of our assumptions about many fundamental parts of our lives, like how kids should go to school, how we educate kids, how we work. Um, and to me, there was this tremendous opportunity then to reflect on those things. Um but coming back to much of what we've been discussing, was also clear to me that it was going to require a lot of self-permission for us to truly engage with reimagining what was possible and desirable as the world changed so rapidly. So, you know, having said that, I spent my whole life kind of helping people navigate change, this felt like, wow, I think we're all trying to make this up as we go. And very much imprinted with a 20th century, if I can say, sort of boomer-led vision of what life was supposed to look like. And yet the conditions that we were trying to create those lives in were, you know, beyond recognition to what they dealt with. So I wanted to kind of dig in a little bit to this question of, you know, what are we allowed to become in this incredibly fluid time? You know, are we allowed to ditch an outdated script around adult lives that frankly is so out of place at this moment, but yet we still hold on to it as the gold standard of, you know, get good grades, go to a good school, get a good job, lead a good life. It's linear, it's seamless, it's accumulative. And there are all these people right now whose lives look nothing like that. And yet, you know, for better or for worse, they're sitting there going, Am I okay? Is this all right? Am I, you know? So I wanted to contribute to, you know, an evolving conversation around adulting in the 21st century and the kinds of lives we have to create for ourselves in a very fluid world that is frankly not rewarding the same types of logic that you know worked in a very fixed world where everything was predictable and you know, you could just kind of make choices based on convention and predictability. So I kind of brought together my 30 years of experience in change and everything that it taught me around, you know, how do we start to disrupt the script that we're all laboring with? How do we start to free up a little bit more permission to ourselves to intentionally create lives and not just accept the ones that um we think we're supposed to have or the ones that we were given? Um, yeah, and the the 10 permissions were sort of born out of that desire to contribute to a more relevant conversation around navigating adult life today.

John: 28:09

I'm completely aligned with you in terms of the change, you know, and I think that we we've come from that, you know, that industrial era, you know, boilerplate, this is what your life's gonna look like, here's what you're gonna learn, the three R's, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Um, we've started change, there's no question about it. I think the emergence of of new platforms, particularly around things like social media and computing, have forced us to change. We're moving so much to more to more to more towards the kind of gig economies where people won't have a single career, they'll have four or five things going on at once, which is completely counter to this the what we're taught to do. Um again, I I love I love some of these in particular. I think uh, you know, go astray, for instance, completely flies in the face of of what we've been taught, you know. Um or think small, for instance, is such a like think small, really? Um but um but I love it, you know. I think I love it because of I think the way that it fits in with this, but you know, is there is there of the 10 permissions, is there a couple that really stand out for you or you you love them all equally, or I do love them all.

Jillian: 29:24

Um yeah, I mean let's look at the let's look at the two that you just raised, because I think they're they're both, as you say, if you want to, they're all engineered to provoke a reaction to, as you describe, sort of, oh wait a second, that's not what I've been taught or told. And in many cases, it wasn't even spoken, it was just understood, right? That this was what was allowed. Yeah, and so you know, by being deliberately provocative, I'm attempting to kind of lift up a lot of the implicit rules that. That made sense at a certain time, and I'm not suggesting that they didn't, but let's take go astray in the concept of linear careers, which, as you've referenced, made sense when we were working in factories or you know, in other forms of industry, even made sense during the rise of you know the corporate culture of the sort of late 20th century. And uh I remember hearing Daniel Priestley, who's a countryman of yours, talking about how we were raised to be component labor. We were raised to fit into big systems. And what you've described already is the dissolution of that. So moving forward, we will not be able to rely on a straight path through a system to be our mental model for our career path. So, you know, I think it's worthwhile saying also that these aren't just sort of aspirational, like, hey, go to Bali and lead a nice life. It's like this is strategic. This is saying that you are living in a fluid world that's gonna bounce you around, that if you if your expectation is that linearity provides security, you're in for a rough ride. One, because when your life starts to go astray, you're gonna feel like you're a terrible failure. You're not. That's just real life right now. And two, you kind of need to take control of that process and not only uh, you know, let change happen to you, but make change happen within your own life. So it's sort of saying the world is fluid, your life is gonna look that way too. And guess what? That's not such a bad thing. Um, within those curves is all sorts of space for learning and growth and interest if we let go of the idea that you know it's inherently problematic. And I think part of that is going to think small, which is, you know, we have to accept that in an in a complex landscape where our our you know line of sight is so much shorter, where our time frames are so much shorter, that we can't necessarily have the grandiose five-year vision for ourselves or anything else. We've got to work in a little bit more of an inductive way. That's okay. That's all right. You know, again, it doesn't mean that you're out of control, that you lack ambition or clarity. There'll be times when maybe you will be able to see farther, work with that. But if not, just allow yourself to kind of move through things and unlock possibility and options as you go. So, yeah, these are very, very different ways of operating from the deductive, you know, have a five-year goal and plot a straight line towards it. And that's what good looks like. It's like, no, I'm I'm not buying it. I don't think that's how people live anymore. And I think we need to allow ourselves to create some new version success stories that look different, that feel different, that have, you know, a lot of stopping and starting and finding your way through the woods. And all of that is is real and it's allowed. And, you know, my hope would be that people would read it and not only find inspiration, but what I'm hearing from a lot of readers is validation. Like, I really felt like I was totally broken. But it's okay that my life doesn't look like my mother's or my father's. I'm not some mess because I'm doing multiple things or taking a winding path. Like as long as I'm meeting my needs and you know, moving forward, it's okay. So, you know, that combination of inspiration and validation and interrogation is kind of what I'm hoping to provide with these.

John: 34:06

I I see a whole new series of affirmations coming out of this, right? Affirming based on a whole different rule book. Um, yeah. Go back to think small. It's interesting because as I thought about this, this felt like Think Small particularly felt to me like the transition from waterfall project management to agile project management. Um, and I can remember when I went through that transition, it did my head in. Like I was, you know, I was indoctrinated into building long, extensive Gantt charts that went on for six, eight, twelve months of project planning with deadlines and dependencies and flags and whatever. And then I moved into an organization that was doing agile development, and generally they didn't have a sprint that went beyond two weeks. And I was horrified uh by this. But what was so obvious in that was that this notion of these small epics or the small deliverables that they would deliver in a two-week period, and then they'd revisit what the goals were because the world changes so rapidly. To me, that's how I rationalize things small. Um taking a look at the bigger picture, I I have a question here that I always ask my guests about artificial intelligence, but I'm going to leap to that question now. A lot of the conversations I'm having with people today is this feeling of being threatened by being replaced by artificial intelligence. And as I thought about the the 10 permissions and the way that they're written, I actually think that they're almost the antidote in the sense that um an AI algorithm is not going to do what you're describing here. Um this is the human bit. This is the bit that you can't write as an algorithm successfully today. Who knows about tomorrow? But I that's how I look at this, Gillian. And I don't think this was your goal, maybe. I don't know, but but I look at this and I go, if you're worried about AI replacing you, think about how you can operate differently than a computer program. Think about how you can operate and think differently than an algorithm. Um, and I think this this invites you to do that.

Jillian: 36:21

Oh my god, can I write that down? That's gonna be that's gonna be on my label because yes, of course, indeed. But actually, you saying it makes me go, yeah, a hundred percent. Um yes, it's essentially intentional, accelerated human exploration, learning, and adaptation. So it's you super intentionally sort of driving your own growth and adaptation in a in an experiential and experimental way. And you know, to me, AI is most threatening. I'm gonna get in trouble for this, but I'm gonna say it, to people with a very fixed mindset whose identity has been built out around um the idea that they could operate by a formula of whatever they're, you know, applying their knowledge and talent and skills in a you know replicable way. So it's it's gonna come first for those things that can be repeated and replicated over and over and over again. And so if you are not engaging with your own growth and adaptation and essentially creation and recreation, then you should be worried because you have programmed yourself to operate like a robot for your whole life, and now you're about to get eaten by a robot. And it's I don't say that flippantly or just suggest that somebody deserves it, but the simple reality is you've been a human robot within a corporate machine, and now they've worked out that they can replace you with an actual robot, which is you know cheaper and easier to you know program. So that this moment is calling upon us to dig ever deeper into our human capability to create, to expand, to look around and say, okay, you know, what next, what now? Um, I think it is very threatening and liberating. And it is going to, I think, lead to a period of, and it is in a we are, I think, in a period of grieving. Because everything we were taught and trained to do is now kind of being used against us, you know, to be the loyal employee who came and sat at her desk every day and did the same thing for eight hours. And now it's kind of like, oh, wait, that that can be done by something else. Um, and I think it's it's a cruel moment because um, you know, for everybody who's played by the rules, it kind of feels like this was a fundamental rule that's now being rewritten to the advantage of the people who own the place, not the people who work for it. But as you say, you've you don't have a choice, you've got to start to rewrite your own set of rules. And for me, that's gonna require an a super intentional exploration, learning, adaptation, creation. So yeah, I I didn't I didn't set out to write something that I thought would be the antidote to AI, but I certainly set out to write something that I thought would be deeply human and potentially contribute to people leaning ever more into their deeply human capability to explore and create.

John: 40:01

Well, and and I made the point because, and I might get in trouble too, by the way, but I made the point because we a lot of people need to reinvent themselves, there's no question about it. You know, for livelihood's sake, um, reinvention is going to be critical. We haven't prepared uh people for this change that's amongst that's upon us now. And my biggest concern is that what I'm observing is that some folks' idea of reinventing themselves is to go and learn a new set of repeatable skills. But if they're repeatable skills, I'm gonna paraphrase what you said, repeatable skills will be replaced. It's the non-repeatable skills they're gonna that are gonna be worth money. I look I don't I don't think I don't think the world is gonna be unemployed. I really don't. But I think the people who are gonna be successful and the people who are gonna make a difference are the people who um are able to think differently, are able to take advantage of these things, but apply the human the human element to it. Um and we talked in one of my previous podcasts about the impact on art, for instance. And sure, I think we'll end up buying AI generated art. But I also think that we'll buy human-generated art and we'll pay a different price for it because it's human, right? The reality is it has a different level of of uniqueness about it, and all AI generated art is derivative, et cetera, et cetera. True for most things. So I again I I looked at your permissions, and I again I'm like, if you're gonna reinvent yourself, this isn't a bad set of uh frameworks to start using in terms of reinvention. So um I think it could be interesting from that perspective. Um, so the the book's out. Uh uh, I know you're crazy busy on social media promoting it as you should. Um, but I also know when you and I first talked, you're doing some work with with schools and education and doing some work in areas. So, what's the mission now? And now the book's out there. What is what is your North Star?

Jillian: 42:07

Yeah, I mean, I was as you were speaking, I was sitting and thinking about it's what is particularly crazy to me is that we are sending young people out into this world right now, knowing everything we know and knowing everything we don't know, and sending them out with the exact same formula that I got sent out with. And it's just crazy to me. And I understand more potentially than others that people don't adapt quickly. I get it. However, I think we do have more options right now than we're allowing ourselves to explore in preparing young people for this, what we are currently experiencing. And I feel that young people are so well suited for this brand of, you know, deeply human exploration if we don't channel them into that same old industrial era mindset where you know they've got to do what everybody else does. I mean, it's crazy to me now that we haven't at least caught some of the most obvious things and said, listen, guys, you know, um so the North Star is to help people through the next 10 years, which I think is going to be a time of deep displacement. Um, a specific focus on young people, because, you know, I say in the book, I've spent my whole life working with stuck adults. Um, I feel a sense of mission around, you know, helping to reimagine how we prepare young people in a world where the passing on knowledge is no longer worth what it once was because knowledge is now readily available. It's now, you know, a different thing. That in my words, we we will be looking far more at kind of behavioral uh metrics than cognitive ones. At least they'll be alongside each other because what you know is far less valuable now than what you do with you know all the information that's available out there. So yeah, I'm working now with schools and those who you know support them to kind of look at how these permissions and the concepts behind them could help us to shift some of our ways of preparing young people so that they feel allowed to walk into this world and you know, create the things that that need to be made at this moment. Um, equally, I would say, you know, the parents of those kids are going through the same thing where a lot of people sitting in midlife or close to that third chapter are whether, you know, by default to design, getting booted out of their comfortable sense of identity and are going to be left with some very profound questions around, you know, what does the rest of my life path look like? So I think it's a really ripe moment of people in deep transition around the path ahead for them and who are pivoting and reinventing and navigating. And I think these permissions, as you've already pointed out, are a really good um way of beginning to reframe your thinking around what's possible and what's allowable and what's desirable. Um you're incredibly powerful, influential person uh based on what you've done, Gillian. But I know that you recognize that uh on your own, you're not gonna change the world, you're gonna influence your scope. Uh I know from your initial conversation that we had, uh, that one of your uh goals of the book or one of your hopes for the book was that it would be a mechanism to connect with other like-minded individuals. Uh so if if there's listeners to this podcast who want to engage with you or want to get on board your team or somehow, you know, support this effort of yours, uh, how can they do that? They can reach out to me via my website. Um, I'm very active on LinkedIn. And yeah, um, you know, I'm one person. And I'm not, you know, I'm not looking to build a big consulting firm. I am looking to build community. I am looking to build like-minded people who are who you know need each other. And as I say in the book, the book is about individual self-permission. But actually, what I'm hoping is that with enough individual self-permission, it becomes sort of social permission that if we show up to each other, we start to give each other the space to rethink, you know, how we're allowed to shape our path forward. Equally, you know, there are so many unbelievably capable and talented coaches and you know, people like yourself who are currently working with people through these exact issues. And if the language of the book and if the the ideas implicit and explicit in the book are useful, then I'm also looking to, you know, work with with others to say, okay, cool, how can this potentially you know be of use to you? So yeah, please, whether you're an individual who's navigating the transitions in your life and wanting to find out more, please go to the website, which I'm sure will be in the show notes. If you're a professional who works with people through change, you know, equally I'm I'm so keen to kind of connect and look at how we can support each other through what I think is going to be a very challenging time and a very exciting time for people to kind of reimagine their way forward. Well, as a coach myself, I'm definitely looking at them today, thinking, how do I incorporate these into my engagements? I think, and maybe there's a whole framework there that we think about from a coaching perspective. Um, I also think that, you know, somewhat to the point that you made earlier, uh, to support the next generation, our kids and our grandkids and so forth, uh we as parents, as teachers, as leaders and so forth need to start to understand a different mindset, a different set of mental models. Um and again, I think this is a framework that that serves that purpose to a large extent. Um so I think that's exciting in terms of what can be done. Um, I will include your LinkedIn and your website uh in certainly in the notes as well as the link to the TEDx talk as well. Again, because I think it's such a fascinating discussion. Um I want to kind of go back into your journey a little bit and and for the benefit of our listeners, you know, what of this period since maybe since you landed in in Africa, what's been the most significant hurdle that you've had to overcome and how did you overcome it? Um I would say I I find it an ongoing hurdle, if if that's the right word, but I'm always um I'm always trying to find ways to meet people where they're at, not where I want them to be. Um you know, and I was thinking earlier about how, and one of the things that struck me throughout my work in different um settings was how we rely so heavily on uh conversation and narration and words to make sense of what we're feeling and experiencing. And of course, working in cross-cultural settings, you know, those words are often not adequate and they fall short in terms of creating the kind of um space that people want and need to come to grips with what they're feeling and the expectation that we have of people to be able to describe what they're feeling and make it make sense and on and on and on. So, you know, I think that for me is one of the things that I'm also interested in with a lot of this work. And one of my permissions is feel your way, you know, come into different ways of engaging with people through through change that don't all involve, you know, conversations where everything has to make sense, uh, where A plus B always has to equal C, you know, it's so um, you know, I I think that often people feel inadequate because they can't put words and describe things in the way that they want to as it relates to their own growth and change. And and I think kind of looking for different ways of engaging people. And, you know, now I work a lot with the body, with going out into nature, with physical movement, with things that are not let's sit down and you know analyze ourselves, but let's just start moving and let's work in a more sort of experiential way. Um, I think of our brains are overburdened, and I think we've got a lot of untapped capacity in the rest of our bodies to make and manage change in our lives. And that's a big part of what I'm exploring right now. I think it's a great topic. You know, I'm a big believer in sensory, sensory acuity, uh, you know, the Paul Ekman stuff and uh the kind of micro gestures and so forth. As a coach, trying to understand did something I just said, you know, affect somebody and did it have an impact? But we've survived this COVID period where we were all separated and we were living our life on Zoom calls, and so much of our communications withered away during that period. And it's interesting, uh, you know, even for companies that have in that have forced our employees to go back into the office, uh, as my employer that I I've left now was doing, I found that we didn't really recover. Uh, we we lost the the connection that we had before. Uh and I don't know like I don't know how we're gonna get it back to the extent that we need to get it back to. So I think it's a it's an important topic. I think we've got a lot of work to do to get back again to where we were. Yeah. No, 100%. And I think there's a craving, a real, real craving for connection right now that um that I think, as you say, still speaks to what we all experienced and and have experienced since then. Um and again, I do think maybe that's gonna come through things that are not digital, that are not cognitive and analytical, that are, you know, human beings showing up to each other in different ways. Yeah, I I agree. And I think a connection often isn't cognitive at all. Uh, and so we've got to relearn that. Um, if you go back to 96 at the beginning of this of this journey you've been on since you landed in Africa, with all of the knowledge that you have today, what's the coaching you're giving yourself? What are you telling yourself? Ah yeah. Um it's okay for you to be exactly who you are, you know, to be a young woman who doesn't know a lot. Um, you don't have to pretend to know everything, you don't have to pretend to be in control. You know, I think I often covered up my not knowing and saw it as a uh a weakness as opposed to an opportunity to just you know engage deeper. I think I tried very hard to ask questions and to lead with curiosity and empathy, but at the same time, um I felt this um you know inadequacy around my lack of experience. And I think looking back, I probably could have done even more to just accept that and let that be, you know, part of my offer instead of something I felt I had to um either cover up or you know sort of compensate for. Uh imposter syndrome has been a theme that's come up on this podcast quite a bit. I did one in episode on it, but it's also come up in many other guest episodes as well. And I'm I'm sensing that at some point during your journey that's that's had its play with you. Of course. Yeah, it always does. I mean, and and to me, what I've what I want to say to other people is my own learning from that is that it's just it's a sign that you're just crossing over some boundary that you've created in your own mind. So just welcome it and sit with it a little bit and walk with it a little bit. Don't, you know, don't. And I think a lot of things, you know, we I'm I'm sort of putting out a theme here about sort of too much, too much analysis, but you know, we tend in this very theropised world to then go deep diving on some of these feelings. And I think sometimes we just have to welcome witness, say, okay, I'm feeling this right now, but I'm gonna take one more step, I'm gonna keep going. This is not a reason to turn back or problematize wherever I am. It's just me crossing a boundary, and I can keep going with this. Um, I have the capability to carry a whole lot of feelings forward with me. And by the way, everybody else is probably feeling something similar to me anyway. So um yeah, just you know, my permission to travel lightly, I think, is a part of that. You know, it's like just you're going to go through things, you're going to feel things. Try to keep just, you know, not letting them burden you to the extent that you get, you know, frozen with questions and concerns about your capability. Just carry it with you with as light a touch as you can, knowing that it's just part of the journey. Yeah, I love that. I think that's spot on. Um, and just trust. Just trust that you've got what it takes to get the job done, uh, the mission accomplished. Um who's had the most significant influence on you and why? Oh, wow. Um I'm gonna say my mother. Um mainly because if I talk about spending my life with stuck adults, she was the first one. Um, I was deeply aware growing up that she was living a life that she didn't want. And it was deeply imprinted on me that that was never going to be me. Um so a lot of the racing off at a young age was very much the I am not my mother, I am free, I can do what I want. And you know, that that sort of built-in will that I have is very much a an unconscious and conscious response to witnessing a woman who, you know, literally was kind of sleepwalking through her life. So she is a constant presence with me. Um, I'm super aware now at my age that you know she was preparing and in the midst of this great decline. And I don't feel that way at all. I feel precisely the opposite. So I um yeah, she's always with me and many other women like her. Um and and I I don't see that as a negative thing, I see it as just uh a companion as I move through wherever I am in this part of my life. What a gift. Uh I love that. Um and it is interesting, uh, it comes up again on the podcast quite a bit. The influences on us are either people who do things that inspire us to follow them or model them, or the other situation, which is where you observe people living in a way that's not congruent, and you make a conscious decision that that's not going to be my life. I have a different, a different mission. But the clarity comes from that being observed. Um, yeah, and I do think that's a gift uh when you when that happens. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't feel like it at the time, but yes, uh again, in the rear view mirror, you go, okay, well, listen, you gave me all the fuel I needed, and it was up to me to go. So, yes, it is a gift. Yeah. All right, I've got a few cheesy questions that I Always ask my guests to wrap up the episode. Um, we've touched on artificial intelligence already. Uh, so I'm gonna move on to a different question. If you could only read or listen to one book for the rest of your life, what book would that be and why? Oh my goodness. Um you know, I am a bit of a change geek. And so um I'm sorry, that's where my mind went to because William Bridges' um book on transitions really sorry, my my menopausal brain is blanking right now on the title. You know what I'm talking about. Um I think it was one of the first times that I I heard somebody else expressing what I had witnessed over and over again as this internal change process. And I think it gave me permission to start to think even more about that in my own work. And so, you know, where so many other change books were all about the external experience of it and the kind of orchestration of it, there was this nuance to the intimate internal piece of it that was just uh, you know, I just so appreciated it. It was just such a a gift to this young, you know, professional. And so it changed a lot of things for me. So awesome. I'm gonna go back to it. I will find it and I'll share the link in the notes as well for anybody that wants to check in. No question about it. Yeah. Is there a wisdom in that one? Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing. Is there a ritual, a hack, or a habit that you've adopted that's had a significant impact on on your effectiveness or your confidence? Um, I would say a habit of walking. Yep. I'm I just uh there's I don't know, there's no magic to it, but for me it is it it it offers so much um physically, cognitively, emotionally. It's a reset, even if it's only 20 minutes. And when I was writing the book, it was this kind of I would you know go out and literally feel like I was downloading ideas without even trying. Um yeah, I think again, I think there's so much to be said right now about getting out into the world and moving our bodies that to me, however, whatever that looks like for you, there's got to be some virtue in it. There certainly has been for me. You know, it comes up so often when I ask that question uh is is walking. Uh and and I think it worked, it comes out because, yep, the you know, the physical activity of walking itself is therapeutic and the you know the kind of disassociating yourself from the stuff that's at you waiting at your desk is a good thing as well. I also think it's like a break state, it's changing your scenery, uh, and that and that can give you clarity and so forth. Um, but it does come up quite a lot. Uh I've talked before in the past when when things were interesting in the corporate world that I was in, uh, I started doing walking meetings, you know. I was spending my life on the phone, and so I would tell my own team I I may go walking, I might be out walking when we do our one-on-one today. Uh, because during COVID, it was a sanity thing. But I still fall back to walking. I think it's a great thing. So, yeah, thank you for sharing that. I have a I have a two-part question for you. The first part is when you need energy or you need to power through something that's difficult, you know, where do you get that superpower from? Is there something that you do or some source that you go to um to get you fired up and ready to face the tough stuff? Um, I think again, I will um come back to, I think there's a refrain here, but um for me, I try and get out of my head and into my body. Um and generally it's my head that's causing the troubles, that's asking the questions, that's bringing up the what-ifs, that's you know, kind of chirping at me, going, is this gonna be okay? Are you gonna be okay? So um I do sort of come back into breathing, I come back into movement. For me, if I'm feeling worried or anxious about something, sitting thinking about it for me is the worst. So I will again, I'll, you know, before I give a talk, I try and move around quite a lot. I like to be in a physical place. I find when I have to get up from a seated place and go and talk, get onto a stage, the transition is much more kind of jaggedy, raggedy for me. I get it takes longer for me to get into it, whereas if I'm moving around. So I'm just a firm believer that my own physical energy is the greatest source of my fuel moving forward. And the more that I can calm my thoughts, um, the more I can just tap into the deeper uh knowledge and wisdom and capability that got me to whatever place it is. There's a reason I'm there, and that's because everything I've done brought me to that place. So it's kind of quieting the noise and sinking into that deeper, you know, place and whatever you can do to get there, and as I said, for me it's walking, breathing, really conscious, deep breaths. Um, yeah, very basic stuff, but um, it makes a difference for me. Well, it's the basic stuff that works because you can default to it easily. Um question. What's your kryptonite? What is it that saps your energy away from you? And then how do you get over it? Oh, I think I'm my own kryptonite. Um, when I I've become very aware, uh actually since launching the book, I will say this. It's been a super fascinating process for me of uh engaging with a younger version of me, that that that young thing that wasn't quite sure that she was cut out for the task. You know, she's still around. And she'll start sort of going, oh, but what if, you know, what if nobody likes it? What if it doesn't make sense to anybody? What if um I am most definitely my strongest kryptonite, and you know, this whole process of putting this piece of thinking out into the world has brought me right back into conversation with that version of me that's not sure that you know she has the authority to do this. So um, and I say that also because I think it's a reminder for people that we all are gonna keep going through these things. And um I I'm a huge believer in self-talk. Uh you know, I learned to talk to that version of me that's very worried that she's not adequate and authoritative enough. And um, you know, it's it's just pulling her along and negotiating with her to be quiet and telling, reminding her that there's a reason we're here. But yeah, for me it's uh it's it's myself, it's my own sort of worries that I'm carrying along with me. And uh yeah, I will always be a bigger barrier to myself than any anything external to me ever will be. Um makes perfect sense. And and again, I talked about the imposter syndrome earlier, but the thing that staggered me when I worked it out was that in the corporate world, the most, in many cases, the most effervescent, seemingly arrogant, confident people that I was working with were also struggling with with this feeling of not being you know worthy or whatever. And it is, you know, I think when for a lot of people uh in that situation, you think it's just me and I'm dealing with this stuff by myself, and everybody else around me is so confident and got their their shit together. It's just not the case. Everybody's going through the same thing. Um I think the ones that are successful, like you, are the ones who can acknowledge the fact that I do feel like I'm, you know, I haven't I'm having this dialogue with myself about whether I deserve to be here or to have this, but I'm moving forward regardless.

Speaker 1: 1:09:19

Yeah, yeah.

Jillian: 1:09:20

No, absolutely. And it it's so interesting. It's been very interesting for me to, you know, that dialogue, you know, as you say, there are days when it's pitched and it's real, and you kind of have to, as you say, keep going. Because the only antidote to that is some form of action that puts you in a place where you are reminded of why you're there, where you kind of reclaim your locus of control from that, you know, spinning out voice within your head. And and it's just uh again back to my kind of you just small steps that that physically move you through it, whether that's a I'm gonna accomplish this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna meet with that person. But I find that it's it's active choices to engage with the world that take me out of that internal dialogue, kind of um crippling me on the inside. Well, and I'm I'm gonna go right back to the beginning of our discussion, right? I always ask about purpose, and I ask about purpose for this reason because I think people who are well connected to their purpose, they understand what their mission is. When that crap happens, that dialogue is happening, the centering comes back to now, I know why I'm here, I know what I feel compelled to achieve for the world, and therefore I'll acknowledge that that little voice is on my shoulder. I'm not going to deny it's there, but it's not going to stop me because my mission is important enough that I need to move forward regardless. Um, and so I think it's always interesting to me to see the clarity of somebody's purpose and how that relates to what they're achieving, despite their own, you know, self-doubt, their own self-criticism and so forth. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I don't I don't know what the alternative is, you know. I I I you can't collapse into it. And you can so what often happens is it just makes you slow and and tentative, and that just feels like a rotten way of being. So actually, I think you know, more decisive action, forcing your way into quicker, more decisive action. And I don't mean rushing, but you know, just it there's gotta be sort of um a cycle of action that rewards something other than that that makes you go, okay, great, you know, I'm I'm carrying on. Which takes us right back to the 10 permissions, by the way. Beautifully takes us back. Well done. All roads lead back there, John. Well done. All right, last question. Um, is there a quote that is particularly meaningful for you? Uh maybe a famous quote, might be somebody you know, it might be your own quote, but is there a quote that you fall back to that empowers you? Yes, and um, I'm gonna get it wrong. That's that's just how you know that's just how meaningful it is to me. But it's the I when you said that, I was thinking about, you know, the Peter Drucker um in times of turbulence. It's not the turbulence, it's operating with yesterday's logic, um, which is not the perfect quote of it. But I remember when I read that and I was like, wow, that's so interesting. Because, you know, it's the encounter with the new, it's the encounter with the thing that makes you feel you know unsteady and unstable. And if you're able to say, Oh, wait a second, this is this is requiring me to update my logic about how I move through it, what a different, you know, sort of posture that is to, you know, this is threatening my only way of operating that I know. So um for me, that was just like, wow, that that opened up a very, very different way of looking at things. And I really, really appreciated that. I think it's a great choice. It really is. And I think that underscores a lot of what you and I have discussed today uh around adaptability, about about being able to change the rule book to be appropriate for the time uh makes perfect sense.

Speaker 1: 1:13:52

Yeah.

Jillian: 1:13:52

Jill, this has been this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much. I'm uh thank you. Uh I'm I'm not hiding the fact I'm excited by your book. I think I again I love the the 10 permissions as they are. Um, I will share the link to the PDF. Um if you do nothing else, check that out, listeners. But get the book. I think it's it's it's gonna be a winner. Um, I will include the link uh Gillian's uh account on LinkedIn so you can connect with her there. I'll include her uh website as well. And I know that she's keen to hear from folks who are interested in getting on board and helping to uh to leverage this for the better good as well. Um again, thank you so much for making the time to be here today, Gillian. I really appreciate it. Listeners, thank you so much for joining us again. I do appreciate you supporting the podcast for those folks who sent me feedback. Uh keep the feedback coming, keep challenging me. Uh, if you've got folks you think should be on the podcast, by all means, I'd love to hear from you as well. But for now, um, whatever you're doing, I hope you're living your life to the full. And please be good to each other. Bye, folks.