When Will the Fed Pivot?

 Join us with James Bohnaker, Senior Economist at Cushman & Wakefield, as we dissect the anticipated Federal Reserve announcements for 2024. Explore the expected rate drop and its market impact amidst high interest rates and inflation. Discover hidden investment opportunities in the CRE sector, learn which sectors will thrive or struggle, and hear Bohnaker's bold prediction for the Fed's first rate cut. Navigate the twists of the commercial real estate market with insights to thrive in today's landscape. 

Transcript

Rachel Oh 0:04

Welcome to Peaks and Portfolios, presented by PEG Companies, your go-to podcast for all things commercial real estate investment. I'm Rachel oh, and together we're diving into current events, trends, issues and opportunities impacting the CRE investment space, from dissecting the latest market moves to sharing insights on today's commercial real estate landscape. It's time to maximize portfolios here in the peaks of the Mountain West the and beyond. Okay, welcome everybody. So glad you're here with us today for Peaks and Portfolios. For today's episode, we will be discussing, I think, the one topic that is at the forefront of everyone's mind in commercial real estate investment and probably the rest of the economy, and that is when will the Fed pivot? I feel exceptionally privileged to introduce you today to our guest joining us from Boston, senior economist James Bohnaker. James, welcome.

James Bohnaker 1:04

Hi Rachel. Thanks so much for having me.

Rachel Oh 1:06

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for joining us. We so appreciate it. How is everything? How is everything going on in Boston these days? It's cold, right, or is it warm? Bomb me, are you on the beach? What are you doing?

James Bohnaker 1:15

Everything is good here in Boston. It's pretty cold out still, as it is most of the year here, but we got some sunny skies today, so that's all you can ask for.

Rachel Oh 1:24

Oh, nice, nice, I need to make my way out there. Okay, well, you know we are so excited to have you join us, if you're good. I wanted to boast about you a little bit. James Bonnaker is a senior economist within Cushman and Wakefield's Global Think Tank.

Rachel Oh 1:39

You have an extensive background as a global macroeconomist and you've provided strategic consulting for many of the world's largest investment banks and corporations, while in previous roles at Moody's Analytics and S&P Global, it looks like you've also worked at CBRE, where you were a leading member of the firm's Economic and Real Estate Forecasting Platform. And wow, I'm so grateful that you're joining us because it looks like you've been featured in leading news publications, including the Wall Street Journal, new York Times, washington Post and NPR's Marketplace. So we wanted to bring you in today because we know that, with everything you are seeing and keeping polls on I mean not to say that you're clairvoyant, but probably definitely a little bit more than most we're hoping that you can help us to better read through the tea leaves with a little more certainty and help predict perhaps the most important question every commercial real estate investor out there is asking right now, and that's when will the Fed pivot?

James Bohnaker 2:32

Absolutely. Yeah, we'll just stop the crystal ball a little bit here today, but there is a ton of uncertainty out there. I think that if you just think back over the past year or two years, we've gone through this crazy cycle of inflation and rising interest rates for the first time really and a few decades right and so it's just a different environment than we've been used to over the past few years, and so it's been an up and down ride, but hopefully looking at some more clarity here as we enter the mid part of 2024.

Rachel Oh 3:04

Yeah. So I mean we're a couple of months in and just curious, like what we've seen thus far in the US, our economic performance thus far. What do you expect maybe will happen over the next 12 months?

James Bohnaker 3:17

Yeah, I think really the talk of the day has kind of been this soft landing scenario right, where inflation comes down and the Fed can lower interest rates and everyone's happy and people are hiring and investing and the commercial real estate market finally can get back on its feet from an investment perspective.

James Bohnaker 3:38

And that's obviously the ideal scenario, right, that's what we want to happen. I think that in my view though you're not to say that eventually we won't get there, but I think it's going to be a bumpier ride then is being advertised, at least in a lot of the recent media narrative right Around, this kind of perfect disinflation where everything sort of goes according to plan, and you've seen that with some of the data points that have come out right. Just think back to late in 2023, we had 10-year treasury yields almost at 5% for a little bit there, and then sentiment changes very quickly almost by the week or by the day, depending on the data that we're getting out. So I think it's going to be a bit of an uncomfortable ride, at least for the first half of the year, but ultimately it is clear to me in that the Fed wants to lower interest rates. The question about timing and magnitude is obviously a big one, but at least we have a little more clarity that finally we're done with this rate-hiking cycle, which is great news.

Rachel Oh 4:39

Yeah, I was kind of looking at things. It looks like since March of 2022, we have seen 11 rate hikes, which it seems to have helped. Right, it looks like the annual inflation rate is now down to what? 3.1% in January that's what I'm seeing, has been reported, and I don't think I fully realize from a high of 9.1% of June of 2022. But I'm also seeing that the most recent January number that 3.1, is probably higher than I'm curious. Do you think it's higher than you had expected? And I don't know how that's going to impact the Fed's goal to driving it down to 2%. Is that going to further delay? Because what in the last meeting they said, at least for another six months, they weren't going to do anything.

James Bohnaker 5:21

Yeah, well, so on the inflation front, right, we hit 9% at the worst of it in 2022. And you have to think back to, kind of the reasons and what was going on in the world at that point, right, so we had, at the start of 2022, russia invaded Ukraine, caused disruption in energy markets, caused gas prices to spike, et cetera, and we also had this dynamic, which none of us have ever experienced before, where coming off of the awful, awful pandemic, but the economic implications of that were that people were finally going out and traveling and spending money and doing all of these things that stimulate demand across the economy. But meanwhile, the supply side manufacturing, freight, logistics, all the things that get those goods where they need to go we're still extremely log jammed, right, you know, overseas, especially in China, et cetera, massive supply chain disruptions, and so you know, econ 101 tells you that when that happens, you get a massive price spike. Right, and that's what we saw and, as we've kind of, you know, moved past that phase.

Rachel Oh 6:32

Right, those were more or less temporary disruptions, although they lasted for quite some time I was going to say I don't see temporary in our business Is the costs are good, costs are high.

James Bohnaker 6:42

Yeah, absolutely. And what I should say while there has been some relief, right, you never see the prices come down. They just have stopped rising as fast. So, you know better than rising at the rate they were. But the situation we're in now, and have been, is that other types of services and goods are still increasing in price at fairly rapid rates.

Rachel Oh 7:04

Like you look at rental rates for apartments and things like that, which is good for us, I will say yeah, but I mean everything's expensive to build now. So you know, net wise, is it really yield? It doesn't right. Things aren't penciling the same.

James Bohnaker 7:18

Yeah, that's absolutely true. And you know, just to kind of finish that thought on inflation, you know the easy part is done. You know we went from 9% to 3%, right, and the question now is how much actual price pressure is still in the economy. And if you look at, you know, job growth and the labor market, or you look at consumer spending and just it feels like the economy is still a little bit too hot, you know, at least in the eyes of the Federal Reserve, and they want inflation not only to be in that 2.5% rate but that it's going to be over the longer run, because, you know, no one likes inflation, right, right, I mean we all go to the grocery store and the food store.

Rachel Oh 8:02

Oh my gosh, $5 for milk.

James Bohnaker 8:04

Yeah, not happy, absolutely. It's not a healthy way for your economy to be in over the longer term, right, and so they have to be confident in it. And so what you were getting at with that January number, you know it's hotter than a lot of people were expecting and shifts the narrative right. So, you know, rate cuts, rate cuts, rate cuts to uh-oh. Should we still be worried about this? And I think that's what you're seeing with some of the messaging coming out of J-PAL and the Fed was like, hey, we need to be a little bit careful about this.

Rachel Oh 8:35

Yeah, Well, okay, so I mean, based on all that and everything that you know and sort of cycles and whatnot, what I mean what is your baseline expectation, Like, what do you think we're looking at?

James Bohnaker 8:49

Yeah. So from the Fed, I think that, well, we have to talk about the economy first and sort of those demands that I talked about, because we're ultimately what the Fed wants is an economy that's not too hot and not too cold. And you know I mentioned some of the you know the positives in the economy, such as consumer spending, algra but there's also some weak points too, and so you know we're starting to see, if you will get kind of underlined, some of those headline indicators. You know we've got rising delinquencies, corporate debt is rising, interest expense payments are much higher than they were a few years ago. So ultimately those things are going to affect, you know, the way people shop and how much they spend and how businesses behave as well, and so I think we're starting to see a little bit more slack in the labor market.

James Bohnaker 9:39

If you look at, you know, the number of people who are working part-time because they can't find full-time work, that's up.

James Bohnaker 9:45

If you're looking at, the number of people who are multiple job holders because they need to get by with these higher prices, higher expenses, that's up as well. So I think there's some weakness in the labor market, and how that plays out is ultimately going to be one of the factors that the Fed focuses on. You know, the last couple of years it's been all about inflation, but the other side of that is you don't want to keep interest rates so high that it crushes the economy. Nobody wants that. So really it's finding that fine line and I think that ultimately, over the course of the next few months here we're going to enter that sort of level playing field where the Fed is looking at all of this data saying, all right, we're not too concerned about inflation as much as we were, we're thinking more about the health of the economy, the American people, making sure that everyone has jobs, and we're going to pull our foot off the gas a little bit.

Rachel Oh 10:40

Unemployment's low right we're at like three something. I think the last number had them. It's still really low.

James Bohnaker 10:45

Yeah, it's still really low. It's still about 3.7% and that's pretty close to a 50, 60 year low. So thing you have to keep in mind, though that's a bit of a lagging indicator. If you look at, you know, across the different sectors of the economy, right, we've seen very strong job growth in areas like healthcare and leisure and hospitality, and even the government has been hiring more strongly, but those sectors were ones that were the last to kind of come out of the pandemic. If you kind of break it down a little bit more, you know, you're seeing more layoffs across manufacturing, logistics, retail, even some pockets in the tech sector and financial sector, and so I think that ultimately, we're kind of nearing that point where we will start to see a little bit slower job growth or perhaps even job loss.

Challenges and Opportunities in Real Estate

Rachel Oh 11:37

Well, I wish they would start going back to the restaurants because I feel like my service level in the restaurants has plummeted. But anyway, we started kind of like talking about this earlier. But you know labor market, all that is super important to us. So you know what we do in commercial real estate. We're doing a lot of construction projects, we're doing a lot of development and as I look at our underwriting and different things, I mean labor is extremely expensive.

Rachel Oh 12:03

I mean costs, construction costs, the price of materials and things seem to have gone back down and I think getting things over from abroad has helped, but labor costs certainly have skyrocketed and as a result, it's put pressure on, you know, the cost of development and then with interest rates tied along, that deals just aren't happening the same way they used to. So, like for the commercial real estate investor and groups like ours, like where is their relief? I mean, is there a relief inside or is this just the new normal? And keep in mind my parents are always saying you don't even know double digit interest rates to start complaining. So, but you know, but it's our new norm and like. So just curious, what are your thoughts there?

James Bohnaker 12:45

Yeah, I mean, I think in some ways it is. I think that you know, as I was saying, prices never, never seem to go down, right, at least not as much as they go up, and so you know it takes time to adjust to that, right, if you've got higher costs. And then you know, on the labor side, it seems that it's just harder and harder, especially in those skilled trades, right, not just construction, but you know, advanced manufacturing, things like that. It seems like we, even before the pandemic, right, it seemed everyone was complaining about lack of lack of skilled labor and that seems to have worsened, you know, following the pandemic. And so you know there's some policy questions aside with that how do you get more people engaged in the trades? But leave that aside for the moment.

James Bohnaker 13:27

I think that the real sticking point here is the debt markets, right? So you kind of you kind of think about, you know we've talked about the Fed and I think that's really, you know, very critical milestone. That I think needs to be passed is just, all right, rates aren't going higher and we have some clarity that it will be going down again, but it seems like we're essentially at right now, right, you know, barring any kind of unforeseen events. But so that's great, you know that's good. But I think that there's more to the story than that. It's not just all right, the Fed's cutting everyone. Let's get out there and party right.

James Bohnaker 14:03

Because they're not going back down to zero.

Rachel Oh 14:05

That's the reality of it. Right, those days are gone. Those days are gone.

James Bohnaker 14:10

Those days are gone and that's okay. I mean, obviously you know we all love zero interest rates forever, but that period is over for sure. And so you know, real estate development, whatever part of the industry you're in, can be very healthy, function extremely well in, you know, a four or five percent interest rate environment. There's no question about that. You know it happens in the 90s and even higher levels in the 80s, right, yeah, and so we've hit that first milestone, right when we have clarity on interest rates. But you know, the debt markets have to respond as well, and there's questions about commercial real estate. Right now, there's almost every time you pick up the Wall Street Journal or CNBC or whatever news outlet you read, there's some negative story about our industry. And the reality is that you know it's much more nuanced than that and there's a lot of, you know, good narratives within our sector. But you know there's a lot of bad press and with those issues that have happened in the banking industry go back to 2023. Remember, we had a few regional bank failures which didn't really have, didn't really have anything to do with commercial real estate, but it just, you know, raised the scrutiny across the board for all types of lenders of, hey, we should watch out for this. You know there's going to be distress, defaults, et cetera, et cetera. It's not a good time to lend, and so I think that narrative, you know, will follow suit once rates start to come down. Yeah, but you know it just takes time, and then you know.

James Bohnaker 15:40

The third thing is, we've got this, you know, in the transaction market, right, it's just what is the property worth? You know, certainly we've got the REIT markets. You can look to those for some guidance because they trade, you know, on exchanges and you can see the ticker moving by the minute. But in reality, in the private commercial real estate market it's, you know, highly liquid. You don't have to sell a property at, in most cases, right, you can hold it for as long as you want. So we just don't have clarity on you know what, what the price of an asset is worth. And I think we're getting there, I think we will get there. But it's really those, those second two pieces, you know, the liquidity and debt markets and the price discovery, which I think you're going to just take a little bit of time.

Rachel Oh 16:23

Yeah, yeah, no, I see that and you know you're touching on that a little bit. So we're constantly looking at real estate investments and where to put our dollars and you know where our investors may be interested in. I mean, let's talk about this debt, this debt maturities coming down. I keep hearing billions, trillions. I mean, I have no idea what the real number is and we see it as opportunity. But just curious your thoughts on that Because you know, I think I think the last thing I wrote was like 2.7 trillion maybe coming due between now and 2027, 2028.

James Bohnaker 16:51

That sounds about right. Yeah, it's about 500 billion a year on average. So, yeah, that sounds about right, and the thing is, though, that's not really that abnormal. It's a little bit higher than you know different periods. The real issue is that it's the underlying fundamentals of you know what's going on with those properties, right? And?

James Bohnaker 17:11

so you know you look for sectors that are having issues right now not to not to slam the office market, but that's really where the big concern is. And now you're starting to see as these, you know, debts are coming to you're having just difficulty refinancing and you know more owners are giving back the keys to lenders but you know some, some lenders don't want the properties and so it creates this kind of dysfunction in the market. I will say that you know we are starting to see, you know, rising delinquencies, defaults, primarily in the office sector, but also across the board too, which actually, you know the silver lining of that is that it helps with that price discovery piece, right when you have kind of a forced sale. You know you're not able to refine it, so I'm just going to get rid of this for whatever it's worth, and so I think that's the silver lining that we're really kind of finding our footing on. You know what is an asset worth in today's interest rate environment, with fundamentals the way they are across different sectors?

Rachel Oh 18:15

Yeah, yeah, no, like I said, for us, we see it as opportunity, so we're kind of waiting in the wind. But I'll you know, be honest, it's not like we've seen, like other than office, which we're not really interested in. We haven't seen the onslaught that I think that we thought we would, but maybe that'll happen, maybe that'll come through, so okay, that's the key word.

James Bohnaker 18:33

That's the key word, though, I think, is opportunity, right? Yes, so there's a period of dislocation in the market. I mean thing is there's a ton of capital out there specifically targeting real estate. I know you guys are out there coming, coming through potential deals and really looking for that diamond in the rough, and you know they're going to people are going to find those, and it's going to happen very quickly. I think you know, sort of once, once people get more comfortable with with where we are.

Commercial Real Estate Sector Opportunities

Rachel Oh 19:03

Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's true, you know. I know that our podcast isn't the only. I mean, you're pretty active in the different publications I had mentioned and I've seen some of your recent commentary, so let's shift gears just a little bit. Just curious which sectors then in commercial real estate do you think will outperform or even underperform over the next couple years?

James Bohnaker 19:23

Yeah, that's a great question. I think that you know, let's start with with just a longer term. I think that, ultimately, the way I think about it is you don't want to overcomplicate it, right? Think about what. What do people need? Right, they need somewhere to live. Multimultipan is going to do well. We're seeing more activity and single family rentals and really a lot of these alternative real estate sectors, you know data centers.

James Bohnaker 19:47

Yeah, I agree. I mean, think about how often we're on our phones, and now AI comes into the mix and there's so much computing power needed. And you know, senior housing, for you know we've got a rapidly aging population and a lot of those people don't want to be, you know, live their final years in their own home. They need assistance and medical attention and things like that. And so I think that really just looking at the demographics and the economics really paint a good picture, you know, for those sectors. And then you know industrial as well, going through a bit of a bump in the road A little bump now.

James Bohnaker 20:25

yeah, A little bump. That's okay, though I mean, that's a good thing. Right, there wasn't enough of it, so we built more, and you know it'll take time to absorb that, but I think there's a lot of opportunity out there across many sectors. Yeah, you know, the one common thread that we're seeing that I'm most excited about is just the integration of, you know, retail and hospitality into different types of assets, right, I think you? I think ultimately, we get to a point where everything is amenitized right, with, you know, that type of service that the people crave, you know, when they travel or go shopping. We want that all the time. You know, people aren't just unimodal nowadays.

Rachel Oh 21:13

They're not just what. We're not that might not be a word. New word by James Bonnaker unimodal it's the opposite of bimodal. Gotcha, okay, yeah, no, tell me about that. I think you're coming onto something that I'm not sure I'm completely following, so tell me, dive into that a little more. Help me to understand that.

James Bohnaker 21:34

Well, the way I think about it is you know, think about, you know e-commerce or think about hybrid work. Okay, you know the things we've learned from that is you don't you know to purchase, you know a shirt or suit or whatever you're going out to get. You don't need to be physically there in order to do that. You don't need to visit a retail destination.

James Bohnaker 21:59

Sure, you can do that on your phone while you're at work, while you're at a coffee shop across the country right, and so that's those types of disruptions, you know, obviously change the nature of real estate and why you know the value of the place, yeah, and so I think I think similarly about, you know, this rise in hybrid work, which obviously came about for necessary reasons, but it is absolutely sticking right.

James Bohnaker 22:25

If you don't need to go to the office, you're not going to, but if you want to go to the office, because there's, you know, a great fitness center and you can go out to work, to the rooftop bar with your colleagues after work, there's other reasons, and so you know my point there is that you know you're not just thinking about one thing or going to a place for a singular reason, and so the result of that and I think where we see this, you know born out in some of the statistics, you know, places that are immunitized, not just office buildings or retail centers, but I think you're going to see more of that across all types of real estate, where there's just more of a mixed use element to essentially every type of real estate.

Rachel Oh 23:11

Yeah, that totally makes sense, Like I spent a lot of my career in LA and there's that flagship Westfield Mall there in Tintry City and I mean that's just a play land. Now right, it's not just shopping. You've got that Italy thing, you've got Equinox. I mean, you don't even have to leave there, Everything's taken care of. So, okay, gotcha, that makes sense.

James Bohnaker 23:33

Uh, huh, build more play land.

Rachel Oh 23:35

Yeah, yeah, wow, I like that, okay so, okay. So we've touched on a few different things. You know, it sounds like there are, there's opportunities. I think I keep hearing, like you know, people want to survive till 2025. But what you're saying, I feel like there's far more opportunities in 2024 with the different things that we mentioned. But let's kind of circle back to, like you know, where we first started this. The Fed made some announcements. We see economic indicators where they are now. Are we talking June? Are we talking May? Are we talking? What's your prediction, james? What do you think is going to happen?

James Bohnaker 24:14

Yeah, I'm going to say May for the first rate cut and then I think we will get two more rate cuts throughout the remainder of 2024. No, obviously there's a ton of uncertainty around that there's. We've been surprised many, many times before and will continue to be right, and so everyone's going to be overreactive and I think the lesson for me is that don't focus so much on that. We know that lower rates are coming. We know that they're not going down to zero. We're just going to have to ride the wave as it comes and there are going to be some more ups and downs. I think that the key thing to remember is real estate is real estate. It's a real asset. It's not entirely dependent singularly on where interest rates are and when they move. There's the generate income for owners and provide services for customers. So I think really that's what investors are getting back to, getting back to the core value that our industry provides.

Rachel Oh 25:16

Right. So then interest rates go down. We see a couple. What do you think is going to happen? Do you think we're just going to go big again? Are we going to see record valuations and lots of risk activity? What do you think? No, no, no.

James Bohnaker 25:34

I don't, at least not right away. Eventually we're a cyclical industry, so eventually it'll happen. But I think that there's going to be opportunistic investors out there who get in early and make a ton of money and do really well for themselves. But I think that the vast majority of how this is going to play out is going to be more of a gradual, stepwise recovery throughout 2024, because there is still uncertainty out there. Even once we get that rate cut, like I said, it's not going to be shooting back up to the moon right away. I think that there's a lot of questions about certainly the fundamentals and investors will get back out there, and 2024 is going to be the start of that. But I expect much stronger activity as we get into next year.

Rachel Oh 26:24

Yeah, yeah, no, I see that, okay. So what do you think then? Biggest opportunities for commercial real estate investors right now, like if you were to put again on your soothsayer fortune teller, whatever what would you tell investors?

James Bohnaker 26:38

What would you tell your parents?

Rachel Oh 26:40

Where should they put their money? Where is that? Again, the biggest opportunities right now, today.

James Bohnaker 26:45

So in terms of like sectors, Sectors and then, yeah, sectors.

Rachel Oh 26:50

Let's focus on sectors.

James Bohnaker 26:51

Yeah. So I think that this might be a little bit surprising or controversial, but I'm going to say open air suburban retail centers and so like malls or grocery anchored retail centers, not malls necessarily.

James Bohnaker 27:07

No, got it Grocery anchored retail because the fundamentals are exceptionally strong. If you look at rental growth occupancy. Think you got to remember about retail too. It's been out of favor for so long, yeah, we haven't been building more of it, no, and the situation now is that all of these companies that started out online, I think, pick all birds, bird, dogs. Yeah, I don't know why all of them have bird in the name, but that's besides the point.

Rachel Oh 27:38

Wings. They winged the fly, I don't know.

James Bohnaker 27:41

That's right. So they're recognizing that in order to grow their business and be profitable, they need to be in physical retail locations, because it's so expensive to build out a whole supply chain and reach customers purely online, and so that's expanded the scope of the types of companies that want to be there. Also, everyone's more engaged in services Think about fitness centers are doing really well, right now.

James Bohnaker 28:07

Beauty, health and wellness. Restaurants, for the most part, are doing well and people, so we're social creatures, and so I think that Well, finally getting back to social creatures, we're getting back to it. Yeah, we were hibernating so long.

Rachel Oh 28:21

Okay.

James Bohnaker 28:23

Yeah, we're getting back, and so the nature of your retail center or experience center has really just changed to cater to that social aspect, and I think that's a really big opportunity. Longer term, just given that the retail has been out of favor, it's relatively cheap compared to other asset types.

Rachel Oh 28:43

Yeah, and then earlier you all said mentioned. I mean people all need a place to live, right, like if you look at, I mean there's no longer renters just by necessity, but you have that whole renter by choice. So at the end of the day, people still need a place to live. And I mean not to say this is a coined term, but we're literally creating a generation of renters, because I just don't see the brisk first time home buying. I think that previous generations would say would you agree or disagree?

James Bohnaker 29:10

Yeah, 100%. And everyone kind of expected the home buying market single family homes to become more affordable because interest rates were higher. That hasn't happened at all.

Rachel Oh 29:21

Right.

James Bohnaker 29:22

Homes are more unaffordable than they ever have been, and then layer on the mortgage expense that's higher than it's been in decades and it's really tough for a lot of people, especially your first time home buyers. And so absolutely I think you're spot on with that Multi-family and especially specialized types of housing. I mentioned senior housing before. Student housing is picking up steam, so I think there's a ton of opportunity out there to cater to this next generation, but unfortunately it seems like it's going to continue to have a tough time affording homes the way they are today.

Rachel Oh 29:59

I know, it's just not like it used to be. Is it Sad commentary or opportunity? Let's just focus on the opportunity.

James Bohnaker 30:06

Opportunity. That's right. Opportunity for everyone.

Rachel Oh 30:10

So OK, well, James, I just want to thank you for joining us today, for your insights, and I honestly probably didn't think that you would say open-air malls or grocery anchor would be your big predictions. I'm going to go look up something, maybe buy a Walmart somewhere or something, but no, I appreciate all your time and joining us today for your insights. I'm hoping maybe you'll join us sometime in the future again. Would you do that, james?

James Bohnaker 30:35

I would love to do that. Thank you so much for having me.

Rachel Oh 30:38

Awesome. Thanks, james. Everybody, thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode of Peaks and Portfolios presented to you by Peck Companies. Have a great day, everybody.