Lens of Leadership: A Ted Lasso Rewatch Podcast

Subtle Leadership | S1E3

• Nick • Season 1 • Episode 3

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Marnie and Nick draw out the strategies that make Ted Lasso a leadership maestro. We're not just talking the nuts and bolts of empowering your team or mastering ego removal; we're diving into the heart of storytelling, active listening, and respect in communication. These are the subtle threads woven into every interaction that can either uplift or unravel our relationships. From the soccer field to your next business meeting, these insights hold the key to unlocking a world where respect and humility triumph, and the echo of our actions can inspire change far beyond our immediate grasp. Join us for a session that promises to change not just how you lead, but how you live.

Marnie Stockman:

Let's dig in and see what leadership lessons we learn in today's episode. At the end of the show we'll score some of the main characters on John Wooden's pyramid of success. But let's start with a quick recap. Why are you winding them up?

Speaker 2:

He's the one coach we're going to make an impact here. Domino needs a fall right inside that man's heart.

Speaker 3:

Season 1, episode 3 starts with Rebecca Furious for not finding any report of Ted and Keely in the newspaper. Although she's happy to taste biscuits with the boss, she is in no mood for Ted's jokes. Ted whiteboards the team's current terrible offense and erases it in a symbolic gesture. Nate has an idea to use Jamie as a decoy, but Ted decides they will try it on. Keely shows Ted the picture that was going to run in the paper and while she's cute as a button, she knows this could be a catastrophe. So Ted takes her to see Rebecca, who says she will talk to the owner of the sun. Rebecca's original plan is ruined but she quickly comes up with another one.

Speaker 3:

Trent Crimm from the Independent is going to join Ted for the day to write an article. At practice, everyone but Jamie seems to like Nate's play and Roy is fed up with Jamie encouraging the bullying of Nate. Ted and Beard gift everyone with a book and Ted has Roy wound up, turns out Keely is pretty good at impressions. Keely brings Rebecca a present and Roy and Ted bring Trent Crimm to Roy's niece's school. Trent explains the plot of a wrinkle in time. Then Ted and Trent have a hot dinner at Olly's restaurant. Roy reads Phoebe a bedtime story, then heads to the club to put an end to the bullying. Trent writes his article and surprises everyone with his conclusion. And that is the lasso way in the book.

Marnie Stockman:

Oh, my goodness. Okay. Huge fan of Trent Crimm. He's one of my favorite characters, I think brings so much to the party. But when I watch that trailer I think Ted Lasso would absolutely say you know, reminds me a little Wayne in six foot seven foot. Real G's move in silence like a long Sonya Crap. See the heck out. What do you think out?

Nick Coniglio:

Well, I'm trying to process what you just said. I love that. I think this episode as we're going through the rewatch you know the first episode I was intrigued. The second episode I liked this is the episode that got me hooked. I absolutely love this episode and, as I kind of revisited, the one thing that I really hang on to is really the end of the episode where we're hearing what Trent is writing about Ted and AFC Richmond. From the article it starts with Higgins starting to communicate it and then it ends with Trent speaking In a business that celebrates ego.

Speaker 3:

Ted reigns his in. His coaching style is subtle.

Nick Coniglio:

It never hits you over the head and I think that's a fantastic observation of Ted and how he's getting things done, and it seems like a perfect talking point. We like to talk about leadership all the time for us to discuss specifically around subtle leadership. So I guess my question to you is when I say the phrase subtle leadership, is there anything that comes to mind?

Marnie Stockman:

Well, I'm kind of laughing because you brought up it's not hitting somebody over the head, right? I'm a high school math teacher and I started when I was 21. So for sure you know, if you're teaching 16, 17, 18 year olds when you're 21, you kind of have to hit them over the head with some leadership, because you can't be their friends. So my first day I walked in, slammed the door and said the bell rang, what are you doing? Talking? And those were the first words anybody heard.

Marnie Stockman:

But my last year of teaching, you know I had I learned to be a little more subtle and what I found was that if I could get the students to want to learn pre-calculus, that everybody was a lot happier to be there, right, I didn't have to force it down their throat. One day in particular comes to mind I had a complicated system for solving polynomials you know solving equations, and there's a shortcut to it, and I could have just gone in and said I'm gonna give you a shortcut for this. But instead I sort of appealed to the average high school mentality and I asked them if they wanted to race me and I said you all can use a calculator and I'll do it manually.

Marnie Stockman:

So I can remember like three of the kids in class stood up Like they were in game face. They were in the ready position. I said I'm good, you know, I normally wasn't super arrogant in class, but I was really playing it up that day and so I said you all better be ready, you know, get your calculators turned on, make sure those batteries are warmed up. You know cause? I knew I had a shortcut. I let them pick the equation. It was super complicated, like one of those gross ones, and I let them decide what number to plug in.

Marnie Stockman:

And I can remember going down the chalkboard and I said it's 286, right, and I knew for a fact they'd pushed like six or seven button, you're like what you know. So I made them repeat this a few times and I was like how many of you wish you knew how to do that? And they were like yeah, yeah. And I said I pointed to my objective sign in the class and I said, well, today's objective is to learn how to do that. And they literally said Ms Stockman, I hate it when you make me want to learn this stuff.

Marnie Stockman:

So I kind of felt like maybe that Roy Keely you know like, ah, his tricks and gifts aren't gonna work. But they were just as angry. They're like, darn it, you've tricked me into wanting me to learn math. So that was. I got a little more subtle than just slamming doors. Maybe I was a bit of a Roy Kent in my early teaching days. How about?

Nick Coniglio:

you? Yeah. Well, first of all, I think that's brilliant and that's I think that's very much more effective than where my head's at when I think of subtle leadership and I guess I come at it from the counter perspective and really. So the best way I think I can answer what subtle leadership is about is, I think, of every time that I blindly issued a mandate, even if I was completely right to do it. I feel like I've always ended up regretting it. You know, and I think from being a parent, it's the most evident right Don't do X, y, z. You know why, dad? Because I said so. Yeah, does that ever work out for you? No, no, it doesn't. So on a daily basis, I seem to get reminded that just issuing a mandate to a child rarely ever works.

Nick Coniglio:

The one that comes to mind in a business setting was, I don't know if you remember when we worked together a while ago for them. We've worked together for quite a bit, but at one point we worked for an ed tech company that had got acquired and we ended up merging two companies together and I was put in a position that oversaw our professional services team teams and they were merged together, and one of the first things that I was told was that this team that was merging into my current team had some stability issues with their platform, and one of the reasons it was well known was that the professional services team had direct access to a database and would go in and would update things all the time and it wasn't the most stable of outcomes. You know, they were from time to time messing things up. So I was given the full support of the executive team to change and fix that and I already had a solution that worked for that. We had done it with the team that I was currently working under and I knew it was the right thing to do. I mean, you don't wanna just open up the wild west to have people start updating data in a non-change control environment.

Nick Coniglio:

But that didn't. But the end result was I basically mandated a solution, a solution that I knew would work, and I knew it was the right thing to do. But I will say to this day it's one of the biggest regrets I have in business because for six months after that I had inherited a team that now worked underneath me that thought that I didn't listen to them, that didn't think I appreciated their advice right and threw roadblocks up against me for an entire six months until I finally figured out hey really, mandating this solution was really not a good idea, considering the fact that I did not let them in on how to pass this issue that we had.

Marnie Stockman:

So, yeah, right. So if they believe in your, why they'll buy your what? That would have been a lot easier pill to swallow if you let them in early.

Nick Coniglio:

Yeah, and by not letting them in early or at all for that matter it really impeded progress down the line. So not only did I make that decision that was ultimately the right decision but it blocked me right away. They had immediate pushback, but it affected me for months thereafter because I did not have the trust or the buy-in.

Marnie Stockman:

And so that's exactly the opposite of what Ted is doing, although he doesn't give the why, but he's not coming in with mandates. He's got this much more subtle approach, like you said.

Nick Coniglio:

Yeah, absolutely. I believe we think we're students of subtle leadership, but maybe we can take a shot at talking about some of the high level points on what we believe some of the key aspects of subtle leadership are. Okay, dr Stockman, you're up, let's talk about subtle leadership and what you believe the primary elements of subtle leadership are and that we should be discussing.

Marnie Stockman:

So I think subtle leadership comes from the leaders' ability or desire to get their team, employees, family, to be intrinsically motivated to want to play the game, whatever follow the why, whatever that is. But I think in this episode specifically, there were five or six specific strategies that Ted used that I would love to chat about. So first, there's the whole notion of storytelling being more powerful than telling, telling right. Second and Trent mentioned this specifically in his letter how to turn followers into leaders. Third, giving voice to others. That might have been unheard before.

Marnie Stockman:

So how do you empower others? Great way to find hidden talent. Obspect is actually a bit of subtle leadership, especially the way that Ted lets that play out. Making connections within your network and for other people is actually a key to subtle leadership, and you mentioned this and it's really the biggie taking ego out of it. So I'd love to chat through each of those, because Ted's given great examples that we can show, but also talk about what that looks like out in the wild If you're not in a television show where everything works the way you want it to.

Nick Coniglio:

All right, let's dive in. So I believe the first item on your list was storytelling. Right, and I think we could all acknowledge that the whole notion of storytelling outweighs the notion of telling just telling somebody what to do, but to tie it into the show, I think. I think what we loved about it was when the players all came back to the locker room after the practice. They all ended up having some gifts at the top of their lockers.

Speaker 2:

Last thing there's some gifts up in your locker. You little cubby's up there, so I hope you enjoy them.

Nick Coniglio:

Met with some curiosity, some WTF, but let's talk about the books that some of our favorite players had, I guess. Well, Sam had Ender's Game, correct? Good book Good, great book. I think in the comments we might put, without a spoiler, since we're doing a rewatch we might put the summary of Ender's Game and how that might apply to Sam as the episode because, what was the book that?

Marnie Stockman:

Jamie got the Beautiful and the Damned.

Nick Coniglio:

The Beautiful and the Damned.

Marnie Stockman:

I'll get it, but I'll look at it.

Nick Coniglio:

Yeah, from the title it certainly seems like we know where that one's going. But Roy got a wrinkle in time right, and the trend gives us the summary of a wrinkle in time. I mean why even is a wrinkle in time.

Speaker 3:

It's a lovely novel. It's the story of a young girl's struggle with the burden of leadership. She journeys through space.

Nick Coniglio:

And it seems awfully appropriate, given this episode and with Ted's trying to get out of Roy in terms of becoming a leader on the team. But, more specifically, we have the whole notion of Nick getting bullied in a show, and one of the things that we quickly come to realize is that Roy is observing this and he pretty much feels like something needs to be done about it. Hey, yeah, just so you should know that your boy, nathan's been harassed every single day by Jamie and his little side pricks Right.

Marnie Stockman:

So you know already.

Speaker 2:

Yep.

Speaker 3:

So you'll take care of it.

Nick Coniglio:

No, and what happens from there?

Marnie Stockman:

Oh well, ted tells him a story.

Speaker 2:

Roy, I learned two pretty big lessons on the rough and tumble playgrounds of Brooker Gell-O-Manager School. One if Lil Ronnie Fouch offers you a candy bar, you immediately say no and you get the hell out of there. Number two the teacher tells the bully not to pick on someone. It's just going to make it worse.

Nick Coniglio:

Yeah, and Roy's like great, so you're not going to do anything about it. You're not going to do anything about it, right? And which is a bit weird, because we talked about feedback last week and one of the things that we said was you can collect feedback and you don't necessarily have to implement it, but you should take action on it, right? And I think what's genius about this show is Ted is actually taking action on it.

Marnie Stockman:

It's just not in an obvious way, it's in a very subtle way that the book he's holding in his hand is the action that Ted is taking to make a change. And as Roy walks out of the office, you know, Coach Beard, why are you winding him up, Coach? Because, he's the domino that needs to fall.

Nick Coniglio:

He is the domino, which is a great segue into the second bullet that you raised, which is followers into leaders. Right, and this kind of goes back to my story at the outset when I was talking about mandating a change control process with a new team, and one of the big sticking points that I didn't get into was the primary offender of updating production data was probably one of the most skilled consultants that I ended up ever working with. He was very strong, very savvy and as such he was recognized as a leader with the other team members that are out there, and the fact that I did not get him on board and I didn't listen to his perspective really did me no good in terms of getting the rest of the team on board and with the same mindset. But I think, as you said earlier, you know when Ted said he's the one Coach we're going to make an impact here.

Speaker 2:

First domino needs to fall right inside that man's heart.

Nick Coniglio:

That's exactly what he's doing, isn't it? He's trying to get a leader in the locker room to adopt his culture, his process, and realizing that once he can get Roy to start leading the lasso way that his job becomes so much easier, don't you think?

Marnie Stockman:

It reminds me we'll have to put this in. The links are going to be full below Comments down below like grab them, because if you haven't seen this, it is the funniest darn I don't know seven minutes of your life as they talk about the notion of a first follower. So there's a guy dancing crazy on the hill and if it had just been him dancing crazy it would have been one thing. But instead another guy comes and joins him and the whole video is part of a TED Talk that talks about the importance of the first follower, because it justifies and gives relevance to the leader. So the first follower is a leader in their own regard. So what happens after the first person follows is other people that were thinking, hey, I want to go dance down the hill, knew it was okay, and so then, next thing you know, you've got a swarm of people dancing down the hill and that's exactly what TED's setting him up for. I love that.

Nick Coniglio:

Yeah, and I think the brilliance of it is TED did not mandate to Roy that he needs to be the first follower, right. I mean, he was subtle with it. He's influencing him and in turn he's the first follower. Roy goes and he eventually speaks to to Jamie about it, but he recognizes that. Ted realizes that Roy is a is is a leader in the locker room and he, he recognizes that same point with Jamie saying Do you even understand the influence you have on this team? I'm the shit. No, you're a bellend, but because your right foot was kissed by God, the boys look up to you. It's made me question my own faith.

Marnie Stockman:

He doesn't take Ted's you know sideways approach. He tells him to let out like knock it off, stop guys who are bullied me and did that work.

Nick Coniglio:

That's a. That's a great. Didn't work right absolutely.

Marnie Stockman:

I think it's part of the brilliance of the show is they always show you the example and the counter example at the same time. So in case you didn't pick it up, knock, knock, knock with the subtlety, we're gonna hit your head with it too.

Nick Coniglio:

Yeah, love it All. Right, If I am keeping track of your list, doctor Stockman, the next item to be discussed was the whole notion of Giving a voice to empower others to find hidden talent. Is that right? Yeah, and on point again, is Ted lasso in this episode? Because they demonstrate exactly that with our favorite kitman, nate the great I'm officially on the prowl for any new ideas.

Speaker 2:

You hear oh, you got some night no.

Nick Coniglio:

So, uh, no no.

Speaker 2:

God, no, nevermind, I'm sorry.

Nick Coniglio:

Come on now.

Speaker 2:

Well, you're one of us. Let's go far away. What do you?

Nick Coniglio:

got. Oh, again, part of the brilliance of the show is that Ted is open to any and all suggestions and and exactly as you listed, he's looking to find hidden talent and he, I think he knows that Nate knows a lot about soccer and I question whether it was intentional or not that he actually made that statement when Nate was in the room. Yeah, but it brings out one of the real good scenes of this episode where Nate is Forced to be a little bit confident in his opinion.

Speaker 2:

Really bad, you know, it's embarrassing even sorry, nate, I have a real tricky time hearing folks that don't believe in themselves. I'm asking real quick again Do you think this idea will work?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I do.

Speaker 2:

Whoa, why are you screaming at us, nate?

Nick Coniglio:

On how to better improve the offense and fast forward to a couple scenes later. They absolutely execute the skit, the, the scheme, exactly as Nate draw it up. Threw it up with Jamie acting as a decoy, which doesn't go very well in Jamie's head. But they, they have a new, a new strategy, a new offense. That seems to be something that might work. But but the bottom line here is you know, as a leader, what Ted did is, he is, he's empowering all of those around him, including the low-level kit man and Nate, just to try to find out if he has hidden talent buried within the Within the weeds of the organization, which is important. So I'm curious Do you, do you have any examples in real life, barney, where you know you have?

Marnie Stockman:

you have seen somebody seek out Hidden talent and and have looked to empower others, but that so it's interesting since our last podcast, I've read two books that oddly know for both about scaling teams, and they talked about the kind of over the head with the hammer leadership that is, micro management, as opposed to the whole bit of empowering others to lead. And I actually had a CSM, a customer success manager who worked for me, who would in their one-on-ones, would regularly ask me okay, this is the situation, what should I do? And I realized that basically he was just a conduit for whatever you know. I was just answering all the questions for him, but he had good ideas, but he didn't have the confidence to implement them, and so I would no longer answer him what he should do and I would ask what, what are you thinking needs to happen? And did this for a couple of scenarios, and I would then and and I agreed with him every time great, implement that. And then Let me know how that goes.

Marnie Stockman:

And then, after a couple of times of this, I actually said have you recognized the fact that you always come with the right idea? He's like huh, and I said so. So you just need to have the confidence that I have in you. So next time I want you to go ahead and implement whatever it is and even if it's wrong, I will have your back. If somebody chews you out, I'll take it and take the blame right. Because that was what the anxiety was and I said but you absolutely know what you're doing, have the confidence and and use some expressions. I wouldn't have used to say how he needed to just take accountability for it himself, but he really grew in learning to own his accounts, instead of me feeling like he was just a you know, a translator between me and the and the school district. So I think it's very powerful.

Nick Coniglio:

You have your own little mate there. That's perfect. Okay, next on the list was respect, and when Trentley reading his article, he talked about the fact that Ted is slowly winning him over and he specifically mentioned respect. And I think it was the dinner when he was at Ollie's restaurant. That really was the tipping point for Trent here and, if you'll recall, he was eating that food that was, in essence, causing a fire in his stomach, but he kept on eating it because he wanted to show respect to Ollie and his father-in-law, to Lendo, that he loved the food so much. But when we start talking about respect from a subtle standpoint, I think Trent proves the point exactly right, which is Trent is slowly becoming more and more a fan of Ted in this whole process and I'm not sure he understands and is connecting the dots exactly why, which is the exact point of subtle leadership, ted is influencing what Trent is writing.

Marnie Stockman:

by showing respect to Ollie and when they introduce each other, you've met a really cool person, right. And he says goodnight to Trent, like I really enjoyed my day, and Trent says you mean that, don't you? Are you crazy, I'm supposed to be your enemy. So that is subtle.

Nick Coniglio:

And I think what's brilliant about it is Ted knows that, yeah, he's responsible for a team, but one of those primary stakeholders, as the manager and leader of AFC Richmond, is the community and the fan base, right, and that is something that he is again in a subtle way, but he is addressing. He's ignoring it, which is pretty hard to call. You mentioned the introductions, hey.

Speaker 2:

Ollie, this is my friend. Trent. This is my buddy, ollie. Congrats, you both just met a cool person.

Nick Coniglio:

And networking was number five on your list. Is there anything else more that you wanted to talk about networking? Any other examples?

Marnie Stockman:

Well, the other piece that comes to mind in networking is how he used Rebecca's network to get the picture removed from the paper. Right, so he doesn't have a network in London, but Rebecca has a leadership position, a position of power, where she is very connected, and when Keely brought the picture along, he wasn't shy about using that. So not everyone thinks of the way that they can influence others to make things happen as leadership, but I am a firm believer in the power of connections. I can quote Jim Collins and Malcolm Gladwell all day on their books and the power of connection.

Nick Coniglio:

And you mentioned that he doesn't necessarily have a bunch of a network in England or in Richmond specifically. And while that's true, I think one other thing to note is that he is laying the foundation and paving the way to building a network. It's obvious he was criticized out of the gate and his press conference anywhere he walked within the streets of Rich Bang or the buff, but to his credit, he's absolutely working to develop those relationships which may come in handy down the line. And the point number six that was raised was all about the notion of a couple competing notions ego and humility. And I think Trent again.

Marnie Stockman:

Please do me the favor of remembering that these aren't my words. It's Trent Creme In a business that celebrates ego.

Speaker 3:

Ted reigns his ear.

Nick Coniglio:

And when we start talking about the opposite of subtle leadership, right when we start talking about command and control type leadership or autocratic type leadership, I think it's very much associated with, a lot of times, somebody who is known to have quite a bit of ego, and I think in Ted's case he clearly does not. That's not something that he does not lead with ego. So what's that you about?

Marnie Stockman:

about your last point, you see it in counter examples, like you said, with ego, with mandates, right, and directives, as opposed to the need to help someone get intrinsically motivated to do that action. A couple examples in the real world Nick, your deadline is on Friday, right, that's mandate, no choice. You might want to push back, versus a question of okay, we're working on this project. Nick, what do we need to do to ensure that this project will be done by Friday? Is there anything you need to support that? That is much more putting you in control, in charge of it. To say to a salesperson all right, the goal is we're going to increase sales by 10% versus okay, what are some strategies that we could use to achieve 10% increase in sales? It's a subtle difference, but it really does change who has the power to enter the conversation as a parent, fill out that application for college tonight, versus. Is there anything that you're going to need help with or are there any blockers in the way to keep you from getting the college application filled out tonight? Right, you've already made it's very clear the deadline for that, but it puts them in charge of it.

Marnie Stockman:

I think humility is subtle. Jim Collins, in good degree, talked a lot about the surprising thing that they found is that level five leaders, the top leaders, were humble, and it was the humility that really was a differentiator, because I knew we were talking about subtle leadership. I read the book the Subtle Art of Not Giving an F and Manson's Rule so that's the author made this statement the more something threatens your identity, the more you avoid it. I thought, oh, that's interesting. If you can keep your ego out of it, you can learn, grow and become the best version of yourself. I think that sentence really wrapped all that in a bow.

Nick Coniglio:

You mentioned it at the offset and you just mentioned it again when you spoke specifically of intrinsic motivators. I think we've both worked in a scenario, in scenarios, many scenarios, where the carrot has been hung external motivators of some sort. There's this whole notion and thought process that external motivators are thought to be more short-term, biased. They read short-term benefits but aren't necessarily good for long-term applications, whereas intrinsic motivation is much more in it for the long haul. When you studied your doprinit leadership, is that something that has been covered, discussed much in your previous studies?

Marnie Stockman:

So Daniel Pink's book Drive really talks about motivators and money, for example. It's not a true motivator as long as people have enough money to live. It is one of those short-term carrots that you mentioned. It is more about having mastery of something, having some autonomy and a purpose. It aligns with your why it is motivating you because you see the purpose in it. So I think absolutely there has been a shift in leadership from transactional, authoritarian, etc. To the more servant and transformational leadership that is really about empowering folks to be intrinsically motivated.

Nick Coniglio:

All right, so those are some good points about subtle leadership. So how are we going to tie this in a bow? How would you wrap up this episode?

Marnie Stockman:

So right before Transletter gets read, we wrap it up with Roy reading a Wrinkle in Time to Phoebe and realizing he in fact does have to be the one, and he goes out to the pub, headbutts Colin and tells Jamie there's not going to be any more bullying of Nate. So Ted's very subtle leadership ended in a very not-so-subtle way.

Nick Coniglio:

Yeah, and then I assume we're going to see it progressing throughout the rest of the show. And then it does make me wonder an open-ended question. So I'm curious, if the listeners of this podcast were responding to comments, how Ted might be able to execute on a mandate if he was working for a company that decided that people needed to return back to the office after working for home for a couple of years.

Marnie Stockman:

Ooh, I bet it would not be like some of the things we see in the news.

Nick Coniglio:

I think you're right. I'd love to hear the feedback in any comments.

Marnie Stockman:

Oh wait, please. Subscribe button. Click the thumbs up. All the things for the algorithm, please.

Nick Coniglio:

Please. All right, so that's it for this time. I don't know remember exactly what the episode is next, but we'll see you then.

Marnie Stockman:

See you there.

Nick Coniglio:

Sorry.

Marnie Stockman:

Before you go, first, if you have any advice for us, please leave it in the comments. Second, we would love for you to subscribe. And third, let's wrap this up this week with John Wooden's Pyramid of Success. As always, if you want to see our full results, you can go to leaditlikelassocom and check out the resources page.

Marnie Stockman:

Today we will take a look at Rebecca, ted and Trent Crem along the characteristics of adaptability, honesty and reliability. In terms of adaptability, john Wooden talks about being able to adjust to any situation. Honesty, not just in thought but in action as well. And reliability in terms of creative respect. So if we take a look at adaptability, we find all of them to be a 10.

Marnie Stockman:

Rebecca's thrown a curveball when Ted and Keely walk in and ask her to have the picture removed you know from going out in the sun and she does. And she adapts and decides to have Trent write an article. Mind you, we're not saying it's honorable intentions, but she adapts well, ted goes with the flow when Trent shows up, takes him all the places out to dinner, to Phoebe's school, etc. And Trent also is adaptable to whatever Ted throws at him and really needs to reflect on what his expectations were based on what the reality is that he sees, and that takes us into honesty. So I'm going to rebate them. In reverse, trent gets a 10 there because he is honest in his response in the paper. He expected to really slam Ted and he has to give a much more humbling account of what he sees happening to AFC Richmond. Ted we feel like he's shooting straight the whole time with a 10, and we're going to give Rebecca a 3 because she knows, you know, she's up to shenanigans In terms of reliability.

Marnie Stockman:

We gave Rebecca a 6 for the same reason. She's not reliable. People may believe that she is, but we know that she's got ulterior motives and Ted and Trent each get a 10 on that as well. They do their jobs well and you can count on them for that. We'd like to point out at this point that people maybe wouldn't initially call Trent Cremout as a leader because he's not managing others. But again, we believe that leadership is all about how you lead yourself and Trent really shows leadership characteristics in the way that he performs his job, as well as Ted, as usual. We hope you have a great day. We hope you have enjoyed the podcast. See you next week on Lens of Leadership Lead it.

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Marnie Stockman

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Nick Coniglio

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