Lens of Leadership: A Ted Lasso Rewatch Podcast
Marnie Stockman and Nick Coniglio, authors of the book Lead it Like Lasso, dig into each episode of Ted Lasso with a lens of leadership. Each podcast starts with a fun quick-clip summary of the episode. Marnie and Nick tie together the leadership principles from Ted Lasso, their own business successes, thought leaders and everyday advice to help individuals level up as they lead themselves (and others). This is a great podcast for TedHeads! There are many other Ted Lasso podcasts out there - this is the "same but different."
Lens of Leadership: A Ted Lasso Rewatch Podcast
Don't You Dare Settle for Fine | S2 E1
Curious about the secret sauce behind Ted Lasso's leadership charm? Garth Nichols and Dr. Jason Rogers from the Lassoing Leadership podcast join us as we dive into season two, episode one, "Goodbye, Earl." We have a good time examining key leadership moments like:
- Dani Rojas overcoming the yips
- Not settling for "fine," echoing Roy Kent's philosophy
- Nate's rapid rise and the complexities of mentorship
- Discussing how several of the characters are "stuck" and how this happens to folks every day (and what to do about it)
We share strategies to stay motivated and challenge the status quo. From leaving jobs on a high note to fostering self-sustaining growth, our discussion is packed with tips to help you avoid stagnation and find fulfillment in your journey. As we wrap up, we hear about Garth and Jason's trick plays ;)
Welcome to Lens of Leadership, our Ted Lasso rewatch podcast. Before we dive into this episode's leadership lessons, let's watch a quick recap.
Speaker 2:Season two, episode one, starts off with a scowl as Nate frets over the possibility of yet another AFC Richmond tie. Danny Rojas takes a penalty kick, killing Earl the Greyhound mascot. Ted tells the press that something exists to make you cry and also help you get from one place to a better one. Nate is rude to Will. More than once Rebecca and Keely have some girl talk. Roy racks up quite a few quid that he owes Phoebe for cussing about Keely wanting him to be a pundit. Danny has the yips. Higgins suggests a sports therapist. Ted is skeptical but agrees. Sort of Roy and Keely double date with Rebecca. Roy insists that Rebecca shouldn't settle for fine. Dr Sharon talks about the yips, says they can be cured with discipline, not denial. Higgins juggles offices. Danny is cured, football is life. The episode ends as Roy enjoys yoga night and watch Jamie Tartt on reality TV.
Speaker 3:Hi everyone, I'm Nick Coniglio.
Speaker 1:And I'm Marnie Stockman, and this is Lens of Leadership, a Ted Lasso rewatch podcast. We're the authors of Lead it Like Lasso, a leadership book for life, your life.
Speaker 3:This podcast is an extension of many of the elements outlined in our book. We invite you to join us as we take a deep dive into each episode and explore the leadership principles as they play out the series. And for today's episode, we're diving into season two, episode one Goodbye, earl. We're excited to jump into a number of different topics with our special guests Garth Nichols and Jason Rogers.
Speaker 1:Yay, we are so excited. One of the best things about the Ted Lasso community are the people, and we're fortunate enough to have connected with Jason and Garth. They are truly our people. They have a podcast called Lassoing Leadership.
Speaker 3:And, as listeners of that podcast, I'm here to tell you it's fantastic. We encourage everyone to check it out, especially if you're like us and share a love for everything leadership. So let's welcome both Garth and Jason to the show.
Speaker 1:Jason and Garth, thanks for taking the time to join us. We'd love for you to introduce yourselves. So if you guys will take it away from here, yeah, sure thing.
Speaker 3:My name is Garth. Do you want to go first?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm going first. Yeah, that's why there are people. It's an ongoing joke. Jason always gets me to go first. So I thought this was going to be seamless, but here we go. My name is Garth Nichols and I am in Toronto, ontario, which is the sacred lands of the Anishinaabeg, the Haudenosaunee, the Mississaugas of the Credit and governed by Treaty 13. I'm vice principal at Haverhill College and my areas of expertise and portfolio is experiential education and innovation. Areas of expertise and portfolio is experiential education and innovation, and I first connected with Jason through independent school professional development and he was running a module and he used some Ted Lasso isms in it and I was like, buddy, this is going to be so fun, we're going to do a podcast. And then I didn't hear from him for a long time, a long time. I pestered him, I bothered him and now we have a podcast. So, jason, why don't you introduce yourself.
Speaker 5:Thanks, gareth. I'm Jason Rogers. I'm in Calgary, alberta, canada, and the head of school at an independent school called Rundle College. Rundle has about 1300 students and we have three distinct programs one of them's for kids with learning disabilities and the other is a more traditional university preparatory type school. And uh, come to this podcast. Yes, through a course called leadership and faculty culture that's delivered to independent school educators from and leaders from across canada and that's how girth and I met. And now we're about 60 episodes into our own podcast and we're thrilled to be on the other end of the mic today. Thanks for having us.
Speaker 2:It's a whole different ballgame right at the other side.
Speaker 4:It's great to be chatting with you two again. It's going to be a lot of fun.
Speaker 3:So, Jason, why did you ghost Garth? What took you so long to get back to him?
Speaker 5:I think because I have a full-time job. I think Garth has a paid full-time, works part-time and it's just reasonable to get back to somebody a week later. But there's seven emails that came in that time, so that's what he means by ghosting.
Speaker 1:Well, let me just say that, garth, you are definitely one of my people. I one time broke my phone and, as I took it in to get fixed, so I broke it in the parking lot of the phone store. But on the way in, with broken shards of glass, I had to text four people, including Nick, and say I'm okay, my phone is going to be down for 90 minutes. So please do not call the resident hospital police, because. I haven't responded, so I get you All right.
Speaker 3:Appreciate that let's dive into the episode. So I'm going to start with the opening scene of the episode, which is Danny Rojas standing over. You know he's about to take a penalty and I don't know if you guys know this, but our audience knows that Danny Rojas is like our favorite character. We just absolutely love Danny and we all know that. You know he starts his run up to his penalty. You know talking to himself with his saying football is life, football is life. And we know what happens from there, poor Earl, and of course, with the help of Dr Sharon.
Speaker 3:We also know that football is also death, right, and as Danny would say, football is also football too, but mostly football is life. But in our book we have we have the whole notion of leadership rules and we stole that, that saying, we kind of tweaked it a little bit and we have our number one rule, which is leadership is life and everyone is a leader. And I'm curious if that notion either one of you guys leadership is life, everyone is a leader Is that. I think that resonates with you guys, but I'm curious what you guys think about that, that whole concept.
Speaker 5:Yeah, you know, I resonates deeply with me, and I love Danny as well, and I love this whole episode for all the magic that's in it. And for me and I don't know, garth, how you feel about this but leadership is life because it's got to be lived authentically. You know, in our leadership we have to start with authentic leadership. We have to be who we are and we've got to bring it that way, and I think that's one of the first, most important things about leadership and life is being authentic. I think the second thing that really resonated with me when you all were saying that is the fact that you know we can practice, practice, practice, but until we're living life or we're playing the game, we don't actually see what's important.
Speaker 5:And so I think about this in terms of leadership. As a leader, if you choose to distribute leadership to other people, it has to be authentic and it's got to be lived. There's got to be wins and losses, there's got to be consequences and gains, consequences and gains. And and if you don't allow others in your orbit or in your organization or in your circle to, you know, live leadership, that way they're not actually leading. You know they're more likely to being managed or micromanaged in kind of worst case scenario. So yeah, so I really think that you know, if we're going to live life or leadership is life, then then then I think we have to let other people lead authentically, and I think that's that's what comes to mind at first when we, when we hear this from leadership is life.
Speaker 3:That's awesome.
Speaker 4:Jason, always so full of wisdom. This resonates with me because I love that what it does is. It says leadership is not formal titles. Leadership is who you are and who you can be. I do think that everyone has leadership within them. Everyone's telling different stories about how they are leading.
Speaker 4:I came across a fantastic sort of understanding of leadership. You can lead from the front, which is usually what we celebrate and know as leadership, but you can also lead from behind, from beside and in field, and I think the more that we can focus the story of leadership away from just formal titles, the more empowered people can feel and the more we'll get the best out of everyone. And I think that's what Ted taught us right. We remarked over the course of our podcast that very rarely people said their favorite character was Ted, but he was always interwoven into why other people were, you know, being their best selves and all those good things. It was what he had set up. So leading from the front is not the only way to lead, and that's why leadership is life resonates with me is not the only way to lead, and that's why leadership is life resonates with me.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting because, in you know, the saying is it's not what you say, it's how you make someone feel is what they remember. And so it's exact. That's why Ted isn't everyone's favorite character. It is how he made us all feel. Watching it right Is what makes it memorable.
Speaker 3:So, I could.
Speaker 1:I could talk on 37 of those bullet points, but I won't because we did not get you to agree to the 37-hour podcast that we had requested. So which is fair?
Speaker 1:There is dinner and such in the way, but a lot of that speaks to me. But it's interesting because, jason, you mentioned authenticity and I want to talk about Nate, because Nate, at this episode, seems to start taking a little downward turn himself. You start to see a little bit of command and control from Nate with the way he's behaving toward Will. His little snarky comment oh, do we need to motivate Danny? We could just show him his paycheck. I thought, oh, ok, this is, this is going somewhere with Nate. Right, we see some, some discontent. So, as Nick and I were talking about this episode, we're talking about how could, how could Ted have caught this earlier? What could he have been paying attention to? What can leaders be on the lookout for so that they realize this is happening out for, so that they realize this is happening, because we all saw it. But bless the writers and the producers that showed us the bits of Nate, that let us see it. How would a real life leader see this coming?
Speaker 5:I, you know I struggle with that too, because I wonder if you can always see it ahead of time. I think, first of all, by giving people good opportunities to lead from the field, you know, as Garth had said earlier you get to. You know, get a sense of what kind of leader they're going to be and be able to coach them through those non-catastrophic failures. You know, I think when you end up in a leadership role, an authentic leadership role, the opportunity for a little bit more catastrophic failure is absolutely available to you. So was there an opportunity enough to coach Nate? You know, as he's rising in the coaching staff, maybe not seem like his ascent was pretty, pretty quick. So that was really the first thing that came to me.
Speaker 5:But I think the other thing Ted, maybe doesn't do that well as he doesn't talk explicitly about leadership and leadership styles. He really leads by example. You know, if you watch him carefully you can pick up all the leadership you need to. But I don't see, you know, him stepping out that far into leadership and actually explaining what he's doing to the people who are around him. And had he done some of that, then maybe they would have had a chance to have those kind of you know, important and difficult conversations about a leadership construct that Nate may be holding in his head. You know it's a bias he has which is probably rooted in many things, which is, you know, largely to start with his observations of leadership from his life, and so I just don't see Ted and Nate, or Beard or Roy, having those conversations. They're left to learn by watching Ted. So I'm not sure there's much else could have been done in this situation.
Speaker 4:I disagree, jason, and you and I talked about this a lot. They just constantly missed opportunities to pick up on some things that Nate says throughout the course of the season. To pick up on some things that Nate says throughout the course of the season. I think in a lot of ways that when Ted elevated Nate from sort of towel boy to this position, I think in some ways he thought his mentorship was done Like he should. Nate should be grateful. Nate saw this as wow, I've finally been recognized. There's a couple of times where Nate volunteers for things and he gets shot down Like we need a big dog to do this work and yeah.
Speaker 3:He gets laughed at for that one.
Speaker 4:And, yeah, he gets laughed at and he gets teased, and humor is a part of Ted's leadership, but I do think that there were. We have to be on the lookout for when people stop being curious, and I think Nate stopped being curious and that's why he goes command and control, cause he thought that he had that formal power and the authority to do these things. I also think that he lacked the ability to lead in any other way, and that is what he learns from Ted over the over the course of the season. Yeah, I'd also say that leaders, when we we realize this is happening, like we have to go back to the Simon Sinek playbook here. I do think Nate lost his way with why he loves, why he was a genius, why he loves soccer, and so, as leaders, we start to pay attention to when people are complaining more than appreciating. They're complaining more than being curious.
Speaker 4:I think that is a ratio we need to keep in our heads as we talk to individuals. We live in complex organizations. I'm in education, jason's in education. There's nothing more complex than trying to manage and lead human beings who bring so much to the table. So I would say that, and I would also say that there was nowhere else for Nate to go. He saw himself as a big dog and I don't think that Ted was able to coach him or mentor him to a successful next step, either within the organization or beyond.
Speaker 4:I think as leaders we have to be really cognizant of who wants to grow more, who wants to grow outside of our leadership, and I'm sure that Jason I know that Jason does this really well Succession planning, building up others, so that when you get asked for hey boss, I need a recommendation letter for you on a plant, your first response is I'm so happy for you. Like I wish you the best of luck. There is no gripe, there is no sort of misgivings about them leaving. You know all the time that you've spent nurturing them. I think we have to be really aware of those two things, like when they lose their why and then making sure that they've got places to grow you know, while you're going through that, I wonder if, uh, you know, wisdom is not what's missing here.
Speaker 5:Nate and you can't rapidly acquire wisdom in leadership, and he's so new that he is going to make these mistakes and pull from old paradigms and not understand the in situ, you know ramifications of the way that he's leading, and so maybe this is just a necessary, a necessary part of his development. I think we see it in our own leadership and others leadership, so, um, I think he's developing wisdom through this, and ted is is definitely going to steward him through it in the days ahead yeah, like old paradigms, like who hasn't gone back to you know tropes of leadership when they're struggling?
Speaker 3:for sure, yeah, yeah, I agree, jason it's just a little out of character for ted, though. I mean, the signs were there and he just chose not to address it at all with Nate until it just got way out of. So it's as you mentioned earlier, garth, it was paying attention, looking for it, which I think is critical for any leader to see when people are kind of going off the rails a little bit. But then it's not only understanding that it's going off and paying attention to it, but it's willing to do something about it. And I just found it an interesting storyline, because in almost every other scenario it seems like Ted always does something about it.
Speaker 3:And this one he chose to ignore, at least from the outside looking in. But anyway, great lesson. So let's move on a little bit and in episode uh one, we we learned that roy has retired. Right from the previous season we all saw the writing on the wall based on his injuries and and it's clear he's having a hard time adjusting so once the season's over, you going to have more time to see some friends, right, I see friends all the time.
Speaker 6:I know You've got your yoga mumps. Don't you ever want anything more than sitting in child's pose, getting buzzed on Rose gossiping about reality TV with a bunch of women that know nothing about you? No, I love it.
Speaker 3:And I think it's clear that his support network, specifically Ted and Keely, can see this as well, because Keely is trying to get Roy to sign up as a pundit and Ted is desperately trying probably some part for his own reasons but for the benefit of Roy to get him back to AFC Richmond.
Speaker 3:And this kind of reminds Martin and I we often have. We work with a lot of young people, and I know you guys do as well and they, you know a lot of them, feel stuck, whether it's within their career, whether their relationship. It's really tough to get out of that mode of feeling stuck. And it feels like Roy is in that mode at this point. So we're curious this is probably a pretty hard question if you haven't thought about it but have either of you been in a place where you've been stuck and how do you know and how do you work to get out of it? And I ask because I think we're always curious on different strategies and ways to get past this, because it really I think a lot of people really, you know, feel, you know, familiar in the position of being stuck.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean, this is a tricky one. I think back to about, you know, 28 or 30 years ago, when I was becoming a teacher and I remember, you know, knowing this guy's name is Joe, and he seemed to be, you know, about 65 years old and really happy with his teaching career. So I asked him one time you know, joe, it seems like a lot of people are burned out in education how did you, how'd you, stay so happy? You're retiring as a happy, fulfilled, you know, senior, senior teacher and he just simply said he said two things. One, he said he never stuck around a job until they didn't like him and secondly, he changed jobs all of the time. So he said leave on top and never stay in one place for too long. And it just, it really did stick with me.
Speaker 5:Now this is coming from a person who's been in an organization for 25 years.
Speaker 5:So I've been at Rundle for 25 years, but inside Rundle I've managed to stay curious and I've, you know, I taught for five or six years. I was an enrollment officer, for a number of years, an assistant principal and principal. I've been head for about 10 years now, but every time I start to feel myself getting just a little bit stagnant. I seem to pivot, even inside the same organization and keep things fresh, and I think for me it just comes back to you know being curious. When you get tired of being curious about education, you move into you know a hobby or you move into a new book we were talking about books earlier you move into maybe a little bit of travel and I think you've got to be self sustaining in that way to avoid being stuck, because I think being stuck is probably difficult to get out from. But I have to be honest, when somebody says you know, have you been stuck? It just doesn't resonate with me and I think it's just because I keep moving.
Speaker 3:Interesting, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3:I think I mean that involves, I think you have a built in ability to self reflect, right, and I think you kind of know what drives you.
Speaker 3:And I think for a lot of people that we talk with, and even myself, I've had periods in my career where I didn't it was a lot of work for me to kind of think through the process Okay, where am I at? Am I really not moving? You know, marty, and I talk about all the time, you know, trying to project out, you know a vision and goals and where you want to be and then trying to compare where you actually are at and if you're moving towards those goals. And I think, especially, we work with a lot of people, like I said before, who are just entering the workforce for the first time and they're kind of lost in that regard. So our belief is, you know, it's very important to kind of really um, identify where you want to go and then reflect on actually where you are and if you're making progress, um on that, on that front, um or two cents worth at least, yeah, it's great.
Speaker 4:Well, I I was. I think I struggled, I was stuck answering this question actually, and then I had to do that self-reflection. And in my title at Haverhill College, where I work, is innovation, and I've always been really hesitant or I've always been really critical of the status quo. I think I get that from my mom and my dad, who are both self-starters, who are both entrepreneurs. My mom was in education for a brief period of time and then her and my dad started their own company and I found myself stuck with professional development. How am I going to continue to grow? And Seth Godin, who's an amazing person, he has this ongoing blog and I came across his blog one day and it said if there's no more room at the table, make your own table. And I was like that, always stuck with me.
Speaker 4:And so a very dear friend of mine and colleague, justin Medved he and I started chatting about professional development. These are one day like day off, like a one day thing, a one-off, and so we thought, well, let's just disrupt and see if other people want to have this conversation. And so we created our very own professional development experience a year long, for face-to-face. We called it cohort 21. It's in its 13th year now, and I think that that is like we were stuck, and now we have developed a self-sustaining system to keep us unstuck at all times, constantly questioning. We have on average 50 educators every year and I think it's just a good thing to keep in mind. If there's not enough room at the table, make your own table, and that helps get you unstuck.
Speaker 1:I love that. My uh, the company I started working for when Nick and I first started working together. Um, the boss came to my house. The owner of the company and my husband had to drop them off at the hotel and I can tell you that that 15 minute drive made me more nervous than like when I knew my husband was asking my parents for any conversation between them without me. When he got back I was like, what did you say? He said well that. The owner asked like, what do I need to know about Marnie? And Frank said well, she apparently gets bored at work every seven years because she's changed jobs every seven years, so you should give her a challenge. So, jason, when you were talking about finding ways to unstick yourself and Garth, having a system in place where you find the next challenge or set it up for yourself anytime, I felt stuck is sort of when yeah, I was bored, you know. Or there was a core value clash, nick and I, sort of when, yeah, I was bored, you know or there was a core value clash.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, nick, and I sort of talk around the same line and along that line. You know, while roy is stuck, uh, he also has some good guidance for rebecca along the way. So he and keely double date right with rebecca and, uh, and this guy, who's fine? He's like, he's fine, that's it like he's fine, that's it.
Speaker 6:Nothing wrong with that. Most people are fine. It's not about him. It's about why the fuck you think he deserves you. You deserve someone who makes you feel like you've been struck by fucking lightning. Don't you dare settle for five.
Speaker 1:I feel like that is one of Roy's like prime prime statements. So do you think in education that students need to hear this and is there anything that you've done to deliver this to students, to help influence them sports or otherwise?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'll jump in on this one. It's it's kind of my job to do this outside of the regular classroom timetable. Like global experience is all about. You can't be just fine on this trip. You can't be fine not going on this trip too. So I'm really trying to encourage students to push themselves in a whole bunch of different ways. Cultural competency is where global ed comes from, and then innovation as well Don't be just fine taking the courses that you're prescribed to take.
Speaker 4:So we've developed digital micro-credentials at our school. Just push that a little bit. If you love business, come take our digital micro-credential on ESG, investing, cryptocurrency and capital markets things that you won't learn in your curriculum. That's prescribed. If you love engineering, take our architecture. If you love biology, take our pre-med. So always just trying to push a little bit and get students to think a little bit beyond their comfort zone, a little bit beyond sort of the timetable or their, their sort of lived experience in the moment, always trying to push them, and I love that and I think everyone needs a Roy Kent in their lives for just moments like that.
Speaker 1:That's the diamond dog having somebody that'll hold you accountable and will push you beyond your comfort zone Super important.
Speaker 4:Roy's great, and I know that Roy Kent is Jason's favorite. So, jason, you must have something to say here.
Speaker 5:Yeah, roy's always, always been my favorite, and this is one of his best moments, I think you know don't settle for fine is so important. Garth and I both work in schools, where kids are generally really driven Right, so I come at this maybe in a slightly different way, because more often than not, our kids are achievement oriented and they're pushing themselves. Perfectionism is a real thing in the world generally, and certainly in some of the environments that we work in, and so Garth and I recently had the opportunity to interview the authors of a book called how to Navigate Life, and they talk about three mindsets in that book. Okay, they talk about a performance mindset, passion mindset and a purpose mindset. Now, performance is everything you know. That's perfectionism, that's your straight A's, that's going for it. It's extrinsically motivated, not entirely fulfilling. Passion mindset is more flip Do what you love, go out there and just chase your passions.
Speaker 5:But what really strikes me is this purpose mindset, and I think it comes back to this quote from Roy Kent. He is actually saying, hey, raise the bar a little bit. Find your why. Find your why, find your purpose, find your perfect match and know why it's your perfect match. And I really think that if we anchor ourselves on this sense of purpose. We don't inherently settle for fine because we're intrinsically motivated. It means something to us and you know, marnie I think you said earlier but it's like when you have value misalignment, whether it's in your organization or in your leadership or in your relationships, that's where you know sometimes settling for fine, or worse than fine, which is toxic, would really really come to play.
Speaker 5:So I think value alignment, purpose, I think that elevates us to a place of intrinsic motivation and generally being excited about what we do, and then we don't settle for fine and we fall out of the trappings of perfectionism or performance. I think those are really, really risky places. So I'd hate for my boy, roy Kent, to be misinterpreted here. I think he's saying stick to your values, get what you want, stay intrinsically motivated and be happy. He probably wouldn't say it like that, but I think be happy is what he's saying here.
Speaker 1:And to your point- what do?
Speaker 3:you say Jason Can.
Speaker 5:I swear on your podcast. I'm not sure you can.
Speaker 1:And we're not suitable for children under the age of 18. That's at least the button we click.
Speaker 3:We're all good.
Speaker 1:Well, I will wrap up with that is that you know, you've got to know yourself to understand what your happy is. And I think Bob Berg says that the definition of happiness is living aligned to your core values, which are aligned to your purpose. So happy doesn't necessarily mean fun, it means living toward your purpose. So I think, yeah, I think that's very true. Sorry, Nick.
Speaker 3:And I just won bingo for my my leadership author's bingo card, I think I just so. As we know, we referenced early Danny got the yips.
Speaker 1:Oh, you said it out loud.
Speaker 3:I know and I'm a golfer and I get the yips all the time so I can say it but the brain trust. You know, higgins and Beard and Ted and Nate, they're trying to figure out a solution for this and probably this episode was filled with great lines. You know one of our favorite lines never bring an umbrella to a brainstorm.
Speaker 4:Any ideas. Danny needs motivation. We could always just show him his goddamn paycheck.
Speaker 2:I mean that's a tad aggressive, you know, but hey, I shouldn't bring an umbrella to a brainstorm. So I appreciate you getting the ball rolling, nate and um.
Speaker 3:You may or may not know this about us, but both morning and I, one of our top core values is all about problem solving and we're always curious on how people approach this. So I'll throw this out to both of you guys. I, I know that you guys have some pretty daunting problems with you know, in your school, with your students in your community. I'm curious if you guys have any show-to strategies when you're you know, when you're trying to make sure that you consider all options. Can you share any of that? Anything new to the table? We'd love to hear some of it around problem solving and never bring an umbrella to the brainstorm.
Speaker 5:Gareth, maybe I'll start. I've got a couple easy, quick and dirty ones for you. One of the things I've always benefited from is we start a lot of our meetings particularly when there's going to be something difficult discussed with some core statements or some fundamental understandings of how the meeting is going to run. And the first one is I always say you know, listen, my expectation is me is that you're going to be hard on the ideas and easy on each other. We're humans in here, and I was, you know, make a joke that. You know my wife and kids are off. You know you can't make fun of them, you can't be hard on them, but you can be hard on everything else and it's going to be okay because we're all here, you know, in service to solving this problem or moving this innovation forward or working through this change management. So let's get hard on ideas, easy on each other.
Speaker 5:Another is, once you've built up a culture of safety in the room and I think culture of safety is extremely important, and that doesn't happen overnight. It comes with professional capital and a lot of hard work to get. There is having other structures in place that make sharing our opinions fast and easy, and so often we've got this thing, and I think a lot of hard work to get there is having other structures in place that make sharing our opinions fast and easy. And so, you know, often we've got this thing, and I think a lot of people do this, but it's a fist to five and we'll just do it as a leadership team. There can be 10 people at the table, or it could be two, and it's just a quick gauge. You know, a fist is no way know how I'm going to fight it, or a five is I'm happy to lead it, and then you can kind of work through what one to four would be in the context of your organization.
Speaker 5:And so you ask your team fist to five and you can see pretty quickly where people land. And then you can start to work through it, and we have a rule that if somebody's a fist at the table then we're not going forward with it. You know, it's just that simple, because there's probably a good reason for it. So I think you know really stating your intentions, having good norms for your meetings, is a great way to avoid, you know, bringing an umbrella to a brainstorm Garth, but I'm dying to know. You're the innovator and brainstormer of the country. So what do you do over there? What's the magic at Habergel and cohort, whatever? You're working on 26? Havergal and cohort, whatever you're working on 26.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I think I I read this question. Maybe I was in like a different mood or just like headspace when I read this question, because I read it, it's like one of the one of the best things you can do is like check in with yourself, you know, like to make sure that you aren't coming to a challenge with bias already built in of how you're going to solve it.
Speaker 4:Um, so we do a couple of things at uh, at Havergal we I think our principal's a genius for this she had us all do a leadership inventory like a uh, it's called MVS. What's your strengths? What's your motivation? It's called MVS. What's your strengths? What's your motivation? Really simple in terms of the outputs.
Speaker 4:Like, I understand where I go in conflict, I understand where my team goes in conflict. We actually have an app on our phones. I can look up my team and it just provides a little bit of space, a little bit of like hey, before I go in to talk about A, b or C, I'm just going to remind myself what do I need to be aware of myself and who's in the room with me, understanding, as I said earlier, the complexities that we are all human. So, I think, really be aware of your own bias. Like Jason said, how do you involve others? How do you bring others in for this?
Speaker 4:But I would also say our school is like 130 years old and we have done I mean, in my nine years there, we've done so much and schools are innovating all over the place. What can we learn from outside of the education sector? What can we learn about the history of our school. Have we tried this solution, a solution, before? Did it work, did it not? Have we had this challenge before? How was it overcome? So I think going into some, some storytelling I think is really important. So, yeah, I would say, start with yourself and then what you know of your team and then go into like a little bit of storytelling and then all those things that jason said too, because I think jason is a master at faculty culture and accessing culture specifically or especially in challenging times.
Speaker 5:And I think I'll just jump in quickly because I think brainstorming has its time and place, but I think it's one of the least effective strategies for getting good ideas on the table, because it is too divergent, Like if you're trying to be very divergent, you're not focused. Brainstorming maybe is a place for it, but like instead, you know, working on something that they've worked on for a long time at IDEO and Tim Brown talks about, but plussing, you know, how do we improve this idea or whatever we're working on, as opposed to this random out there abstract brainstorming? However, in the case of Ted Lasso and the trick play and all the rest, of course some incredible creativity was required and probably brainstorming was the best way to get to it, given that Ted knew virtually nothing about football or soccer to start with.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting what you mentioned. Go ahead.
Speaker 4:I was just going to say, get into IDEO. Design thinking has some great protocols and mindset to set your mindset I think systems thinking as well like sort of to set your mindset, like systems thinking as well, like ladder of inference. You know, these are the types of tools that, as leaders, we should have in our toolkit, especially when dealing with challenging situations, but ensuring that we practice them before challenging situations come up.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's not the time to test out the new theory.
Speaker 4:Yeah, like I like parenting is. You know you learn so much about yourself when you're parenting. When my oldest was was quite young, you know we'd say, okay, like you seem a little upset or activated, like take a deep breath, and we only ever did it when he was activated. We only ever did it when it was required. We didn't practice it. He didn't get the joy of what it means to just like take a deep breath and like really focus and concentrate your energies, um, you know, to equalize yourself. So I would say, practice these as, uh, as much as you can before they're required.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting that you mentioned IDEO because, uh, nick and I had the opportunity to go participate in two different military organization brainstorming activities with the founders of Aiken who came from IDEO, and they did, and I like I wish I wonder activity that I've talked to, we've talked about, certainly on LinkedIn, and it was really interesting because they had the plus. So the folks in the room, for sure you weren't allowed to just say I agree, you had to plus one that and add something new to it. And it was a great initial. Jason, to your point, it wasn't when we were down to one idea that we needed to grow, it was we need the initial idea, and the fun part of it was that we needed to grow. It was we need the initial idea, and the fun part of it was and it happened, we were in, we were in Mississippi and we were in Virginia, right, so we were not in the same places, but the same thing happened two different problems, two different rooms, tons of different people, and they would brainstorm all the ideas and then they'll get to a lull and the one facilitator would you feel it, we're in it, right, what next?
Speaker 1:And then all'll get to a lull and the one facilitator. Would you feel it? We're in it, right. What next? And then, all of a sudden, all of this innovation. So I think to get to innovation is what they were saying. So it was a really interesting, nick. Do you have any other follow-ups from that? That was just an interesting lesson to watch.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was a great experience no-transcript.
Speaker 1:How do you get a cat out of a tree, right? So these were 30 military leaders from foreign countries and we watched for 20 minutes while they talked about getting a cat out of a tree. Yes, of course, their first option was to shoot it out of the tree, because they're military leaders. So I'll just throw that out there right here.
Speaker 3:And their second and their last. Yeah, yeah, that was a pretty good one yeah, they were big on that one.
Speaker 1:It was how to kill it, but they did practice with that and then they were able to do a real life one. So I think that just proves the point. Um that Garth was saying that Nick brought up. Um, so I think, if nothing else, we see Ted Lasso and the lessons in that show everywhere in our world is clearly made an impact on us. It has clearly brought folks together, right. That's how you all ended up with Lassoing Leadership Podcast. So we want to give you a chance to tell folks about your podcast, the motivation behind doing it, other than just you love Ted Lasso, and what do you want your audience to get out of your podcast? Who should listen to you?
Speaker 4:You want to start. Sure, Thanks, Jason. Uh, why? Why are we doing this selfishly? It's to spend more time with Jason because he is a fantastic leader, well-respected in our community. Uh, he's a doctorate in leadership, written a book, the whole bit. So I appreciate the time I spend with him and learn from him. I think people. Our podcast is short. It's about 15 to 20 minutes long in general and for me, it serves two purposes. One is it gives Jason and I sequestered time to reflect on our own leadership, Like we're just subjecting other people to it, Like whoever chooses to listen. It's like subjected to it.
Speaker 1:But you're fishbowling the leadership, so you can learn a lot from watching that right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It reminds us that leadership is an ongoing practice and we want to share that with other people because leadership can be lonely, right. And so here are two leaders in very well respected independent schools who are saying we don't have the answers, like we struggle with this too. Right, we're still practicing and it's really, and I think it's really important. And so, yes, that idea that we sequester time to reflect on our own practice, I think it's really important and then it just, it just brings me so much joy. I love talking about positive things and we did. We did struggle a little bit with, you know, two white males talking about a white male main character lead in the show, but I think our world needs a little bit more joy and, as a white male, we need more positive role models who we can see ourselves in leading in a kinder, more compassionate way. Jason, what about you?
Speaker 5:well, garth, that's why I love you actually, you know, and I I like spending time with garth, so I was first one, selfishly. Secondly, same as garth said, you know, we do want to reflect on our own leadership and hopefully teach a thing or two along the lines. But I think, circling back to um, something we talked about earlier, is about being stuck, and I said this to girth about. You know, maybe a month into creating our podcast is I'm happiest when I'm creating, and so this is an opportunity to create something new and share this conversation around a topic that I really enjoy.
Speaker 5:I know girth does as well, and we've got a lot of listeners to do as well. So, and and you know, and I really think, when I was younger, the somebody asked me what I want to do for my job. This was before going to university and I said I just want to be surrounded by interesting people and have conversations with them, and so I'm kind of living my dream right here because we get to bring in interesting people and have interesting conversations about topics that that we both enjoy.
Speaker 5:So, yeah, I like how you put that garth. We were just, you know, really subjecting others to our conversations about leadership and fulfilling life's purpose. On Spotify.
Speaker 1:Is that taking another page of notes? I'm like, yeah, I'm going to invite people to a podcast so I can learn that's what it's all about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so just sticking on the Ted Lasso theme. So, everybody, the rumor is season four is happening and I don't think we can get by without asking you what do you real quick? What do you think it's going to go? Where do you think it's going to go? What's going to happen in season four? Are they going to be in Richmond? Are they going to be somewhere else? Who's going to be back? Any thoughts?
Speaker 5:Here's my first thought. I'll make it make quicker. I think Roy Kent is going to try to be like Ted Lasso and I think it's going to fail terribly. I think if Nate returns, he's going to try to write the ship by. You know, saying right, hey, listen, that didn't work for me and look how it turned out. Or I tried to follow a leader that wasn't authentic me how did it turn out? And then we're going to see roy shift all the way back to his his core and we're going to see, you know, between uh, popovich and phil, phil jackson come out of him and we're gonna, we're gonna wrap up on that and I think that's a roy kent arc. That's all I really care about. This show should call the show roy kent, not ted rober.
Speaker 3:Season four is Roy.
Speaker 5:Kent.
Speaker 1:We would all watch Roy Kent. Yeah, that's totally fair, garth, I don't know any of the other characters' names.
Speaker 5:I don't know anything about them, but that's what's happening with Roy Kent. That's all that matters, Garth. What do you think?
Speaker 4:I struggled with this question. I was going down like who's married, who's not. I really want Rebecca to marry that pilot from Amsterdam. Rebecca is my fave, so I was wishing happiness for all the characters, but then I I landed on this. I think that season four will still deliver messages that we need to hear a relatively counterculture culture, message of joy, patience, curiosity, kindness, acceptance. Like that there's a bigger picture out there, rather than wins and losses, rather than zero sum thinking. So how they do that is anyone's guess.
Speaker 1:So I've mentioned this to Nick, I'm going to say it out and we're going to put it in the universe. I you know how they put Easter eggs in there all the time. We want Easter eggs of, like walking in and having our book on one of their bookshelves, or they listen to one of our podcasts, and wouldn't it be hilarious if, like, lucy Broadbent's book was up there, if he was cooking out of the Ted Lasso cookbook, if our podcasts were on a playlist? Just something that's. I'm just going to throw that out there.
Speaker 3:I love it. Well, rule number 11 in our book is manifested. You know, we talked about rule number one. Rule number 11 is manifested. So I will never, I will never discount anything.
Speaker 1:Barney says so we have one final question for each of you. We mentioned trick plays earlier. If a trick play was named after you, what would it be? So what's the Garth Nichols? What's the Jason Rogers trick play, aka life hack? Who wants to go first on that one?
Speaker 4:I'll go first. I coach our varsity basketball team and we actually have a trick play and, suitably enough for the title of this episode, our trick play is called Lost Dog. Oh, that's perfect, yeah.
Speaker 1:Is it just somebody wandering down the court that gets a breakaway?
Speaker 4:So check this out. We line up in certain positions but then our captain is on the floor, or who's ever on the floor as the you know captain in this play. They'll pretend that everyone is out of position and they'll start yelling and causing confusion on the floor and that's you get a five count to put the ball in. So one, two, three, and for those first three seconds people are looking like looking around, and then the last second we just break into this like very specific formation, like it's great. Our success rate is about 75%. Yeah, it reminds me, like my principal told me, that at one point in time in my role, you know 75% of your work should fail. So I think the lost dog is actually a little bit better. So I think a trick play named after me would involve definitely some fun, probably a little bit of chaos, some quick action, a high level of trust and it might be a little bit of high risk, high reward.
Speaker 3:Well, we're going to trust that none of your rivals are actually listening to this podcast, because your probability of success is going to go way down on the on the lost dog.
Speaker 5:Perhaps Ironically, we'll end up playing Habergold later this year and I'll talk.
Speaker 5:Yes, you will Following this podcast. So thanks for that. We got beat by like 50 last time, so I'm not sure these two points are going to count. I would, I think about this one. I'll go with just simply one 68.
Speaker 5:And the reason I thought of 168, play 168, it's number, you know, it comes from a book by Laura Vanderkam 168 hours, you have more time than you think. And it comes back to time management. Honestly, between that and the Dan Pink book called I think it's called when you know I think time management is absolutely key for you know, staying balanced, being effective, being productive, and those two books, you know, really did change the game for me. You know, understanding how to best use our time, that's the only thing we really well, it's the limitation. So, you know, 168 got more time than you think, and Laura Van de Kam and Dan Pink definitely helped me with that. And I'd encourage, like all leaders, or all people who you know, I guess, all people in general, to really think about their time strategically and, I think, to be all of us, be a lot better off. So that's, that's the trick. Play Just be efficient with your time.
Speaker 3:Nice. Well, we're going to try to be efficient with your time and let you go. So, jason and Garth, we honestly cannot thank you enough for taking the time to chat with us today.
Speaker 5:Did you want to remind anybody, tell anybody where they can find your podcast or anything else where they can find you guys? Yeah, you can find us on Apple or Spotify. Just look up Lassoing Leadership and we're pretty much a one trick pony. We don't have any books, we don't have, you know, any blogs, just the podcast. So, and you can find us both on LinkedIn pretty easily. But, yeah, lassoing leadership, thanks for listening and thanks for having us as guests. This was, this was a lot of fun.
Speaker 4:I love these questions. I love these questions. Thank you both so much and I will do actually a plug for your work because your masterclass I've been working my way through it the community you're building, the questions you're asking really valuable stuff. So thanks for this generous invitation, Thanks for the masterclass as well and thanks for being on our podcast.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, thank you. This is a great community.
Speaker 3:All right, we appreciate you guys. Thank you so much and if you enjoyed this podcast, please like, comment and share, and we'll see you next time as we review the next episode, which I think is lavender.
Speaker 1:It is lavender.
Speaker 3:yes, again both you guys. Thank you so much. We appreciate it All right Cheers.
Speaker 4:Thank you.
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