Lens of Leadership: A Ted Lasso Rewatch Podcast
Marnie Stockman and Nick Coniglio, authors of the book Lead it Like Lasso, dig into each episode of Ted Lasso with a lens of leadership. Each podcast starts with a fun quick-clip summary of the episode. Marnie and Nick tie together the leadership principles from Ted Lasso, their own business successes, thought leaders and everyday advice to help individuals level up as they lead themselves (and others). This is a great podcast for TedHeads! There are many other Ted Lasso podcasts out there - this is the "same but different."
Lens of Leadership: A Ted Lasso Rewatch Podcast
Leadership Lessons from Midnight Train to Royston | S2 Ep11
🎙 In this episode, Marnie Stockman and Nick Coniglio jump into Season 2, Episode 11, "Midnight Train to Royston," with special guest Phil Freidhoff from the TANG program. A former U.S. Navy submarine officer turned leadership and operations strategist, Phil brings a compelling mix of human-centered design, servant leadership, and deep emotional intelligence to the conversation.
Episode Highlights:
âš“ Leadership at Depth: From submarine command to coaching future leaders, Phil shares how embracing vulnerability and emotional intelligence in technical environments fosters team harmony and innovation.
⚓ Pep Talks & Perspective: Phil introduces his signature "Get Good at Being Wrong" talk—an empowering leadership lesson in creating momentum and psychological safety for teams.
Special Guest Insights:
Phil brings a rare blend of engineering, philosophy, military leadership, and scoutmaster wisdom to dissect the leadership themes woven into the episode.
✅ Navigating the Balance Between Confidence and Humility
✅ Cultivating Harmony in High-Tech Spaces
✅ Leading Tough Conversations with Clarity and Compassion
✅ Recognizing Team Contributions Without a Spotlight
💡 This episode explores how strong leadership is about creating safe spaces, embracing imperfection, and helping others find their own path forward—even if it means standing in the background while others shine.
📚 Read it like Lasso: Dive deeper into character-driven leadership with our book, Lead It Like Lasso—inspired by the heart and humor of Ted Lasso.
📣 Connect with Phil Freidhoff
Follow Phil on LinkedIn for thoughtful takes on leadership, human-centered design, and navigating the complexities of growing great teams.
#LeadershipPodcast #TedLasso #HumanCenteredLeadership #LeadItLikeLasso #ServantLeadership #TANG #EmotionalIntelligence #LensOfLeadership
Welcome to Lens of Leadership, our Ted Lasso rewatch podcast. Before we dive into this episode's leadership lessons, let's watch a quick recap.
Speaker 2:Season 2, episode 11. Midnight train to Royston starts with Sam scoring a hat trick. Keely's all wound up about being in Vanity Fair. Roy's eyebrows are crazy. Nate clearly wants to be in charge. Beard gives good advice. Ted choreographs a dance for Dr Sharon. Edwin Akufo helicopters in to meet with Sam. Roy meets with Phoebe's teacher for three hours. Rebecca drops a truth bomb. Sharon left without saying goodbye. Edwin introduces Sam to Banksy. Nate kisses Keely. Ted confronts Sharon but then reads the letter. Keely and Roy do the photo shoot. Ted lets Sharon have her goodbye. Rebecca doesn't want Sam to go. The episode ends with a heads up from Trent Crim to Ted.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone. I'm Nick Coniglio and I'm Marnie Stockman, and this is Lens of Leadership, a Ted Lasso rewatch podcast. We're the authors of Lead it Like Lasso, a leadership book for life, your life.
Speaker 3:And this podcast is an extension of many of the elements outlined in our book. We invite you to join us as we take a deep dive into each episode and explore the leadership principles as they play out in the series. And for today's episode we're diving into Season 2, episode 11, midnight Train to Royston.
Speaker 1:And we're also double excited because today we have Phil right off on the podcast. So Phil has started out his career as an engineer and during his time as a US submarine officer saw the power that human-centered design brings into systems engineering as a warfighter participant at his first tactical advancements for the Next Generation Tang Workshop. So we love Tang. We met, we got to meet the folks at Tang. This is where we met Phil and super excited to have him here. I'm going to add a little more to his work. So he continued to work at the Tang program while on active duty and now, post Navy career, is the operations strategist and project coach for the program.
Speaker 1:So besides human centered design in the Navy, Phil also brings a passion for leading and growing leaders in scouting America, alongside his wife, who is his boss in the Cub Scout Pack and also dad of two elementary school students who teach deeper lessons on leading than anyone else. 100%. We always say that parenting is the biggest leadership lesson you absolutely can have. So we super appreciate you taking your time out of prepping for pack duties. So thanks for joining us. How'd we do?
Speaker 4:Nailed it, nailed it.
Speaker 3:Love it us. How'd we do? Nailed it, nailed it, love it, awesome. Well, I will say that I'm a bit intimidated, phil. I mean, that's quite an impressive little bio you got there. So thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3:We really do appreciate it and you know, we typically like to start off with some sort of icebreaker and we go all over the place on these icebreakers. But in this particular episode the midnight train to Royston there's one scene in particular that really you know, really, marnie, and I really like, which is it was Roy giving Keely a pep talk. And I say that because Marnie and I have been talking about pep talks for 10 to 15 years now and Roy delivers that pep talk, you know, saying you're, you're Keely F and Jones, right, the independent woman, reminding her she is more than what people see. So the icebreaker here for our listeners to get to know you, phil, is, we'd love to hear a story of you, know, a great pep talk story from you, whether it's giving one, receiving one, you know, in the movies, what have you, so you're on, tell us, tell us about a pep talk.
Speaker 4:All right, so one that I got to give a lot and this was from my time in the when I was a submarine officer and the way it works you off in your uh, an engineering officer. So there are literal, very thick books that you follow and there is a right answer to the vast majority of decision questions uh, and you learn those procedures and that's your job. And then when you're about halfway done, at the ripe old age of like 24, you come forward, uh, and now you're driving, you're giving the orders to drive the submarine, but now you're dealing with, like the ocean around you, all the other boats that are out there. The decisions are, there is no right answer, it's a lot of judgment. So it happened one time and then it kept happening a couple of times and eventually it became like one of the junior officers came up to me and was like hey.
Speaker 4:I was supposed to ask you to give me the get good at being wrong talk and it became kind of a ritual. But it was this conversation where folks who come forward and they're still figuring out what this whole leadership thing means and they're so used to being able to find an objective, right answer in a book and then they come up and it's just not there. And that difference of leading a team and the real short version of the talk was sometimes the biggest value you can add to your team is to just confidently say the wrong answer so that they have something to react to, because otherwise you can watch a team kind of swirl where, like nobody knows what the right answer is but they're also not moving forward. And so having that confidence to to put yourself out there and be the one who's wrong, because as soon as you step out of line they're going to be like nope, that's that.
Speaker 4:I know what the wrong answer is and that's it then they start engaging, and so it's like it's having that combination of confidence and humility to provoke the right response out of the team. Uh, but then it spirals into like all the other things like how do you build that psychological safety with your team and still have the authority as the officer, and a million other things. But that get confident at being wrong is the starting point and the biggest chasm to cross.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting because in the book we always talk about defeating the blank page and you have to put something out there. And we have since about defeating the blank page and you know like you have to put something out there. And we have since learned that the reason you need to defeat the blank page is because you've got your brain clicks on and off or can work in both worlds the creating world or the editing world and that your editor brain won't work until an idea is out there. And so what you just said right, even if it's a bad idea, your brain can work to fix it, but if there's nothing out there, it's just like we're in around.
Speaker 4:Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1:So we're talking about Midnight Train to Royston. So many different plot lines along the way, right. So several of them in the episode revolved around harmony. So there's the team dance routine and, oh my gosh, yes to all of that like I love every minute. That is fantastic when he's jumping around. Ah, love it. Okay, I'll stop. Um, I love, beard says, the way trees share sunlight as opposed to competing for sunlight right you know, we used to believe that trees competed with each other for light.
Speaker 4:Suzanne Simard's fieldwork challenged that perception, that we now realize it's a force, as a socialist community, trees work in harmony to share the sunlight.
Speaker 1:And then even the way the relationships sort of evolve. So we talk all the time about servant leadership and we've certainly talked with you and the folks at Tang about it as well Like, creating harmony within the team is a key. So how do you, as a leader, foster harmony in a technical or engineering driven environment? Right, you were just talking about being on a submarine doing engineering pieces, not the places where folks are thinking harmony, right? I mean the super short answer is.
Speaker 4:You know, it's kind of all boils down to emotional intelligence, but actually actually learning that is just I don't know a lifetime of effort. But for us, and for me in particular, it's kind of it's both internal and external. So again I come, like I am an engineer, I was an engineer, again I am an engineer, I was an engineer. Like the thing that they don't teach a lot in like differential equations is, but how do you feel about what you're doing in that particular class?
Speaker 4:And I think a lot of times when you work in a more like quantitative, objective world, it is really easy to dismiss the qualitative and the subjective. It is really easy to dismiss the qualitative and the subjective. And so a lot of the conversations we have are just reminding people that like literally what they are feeling, like physically what they are feeling, can be a signal for where they should focus their attention. Even in our creative work, like when you're doing interviews with war fighters and you're trying to understand what they're going through, you really have to like their feelings are going to trigger your feelings and that's data to be paid attention to to guide how you're going to lead that conversation. So, like layer one is the just helping people remember that their feelings have meaning.
Speaker 4:Even if you don't, you definitely don't want them to dominate you but then the other piece and even from from this episode, the scene where Ted chases down and I'm blanking on her name, but chases- down Dr. Sharon, dr Sharon, and like barges into her apartment and is like you can't leave me.
Speaker 2:How could you just leave? Sorry, I'm not good with goodbyes. Yeah, well, when I was a baby I wasn't good at walking and talking, but I just stuck with it and look at me now.
Speaker 4:That was such a cool moment because one he expressed why for him, because of his relationship with his dad, somebody walking out on him was something he couldn't process.
Speaker 4:But also for leaders, like in that moment, you know, Ted was not at his most emotionally intelligent, because for Dr Sharon, that's how she needed to process that loss and that separation. So, as much as it's good to have awareness of your own feelings and use that as signals of where to focus your attention, having that presence of mind or that mental model of how somebody else and what they need from you, especially when you're a position of leadership you don't get to impose your way of processing the world on somebody else. The job is to find that how can we both get what we need without one of us dominating the other one? And it's those two things coming together that, like especially for the folks who are leading a lot of people, it puts a big burden on them to understand how each of their people process feelings, while also being aware of their own feelings, while also not breaking yourself under the weight of all of those relationships and mental mappings.
Speaker 4:But that's why, like emotional, intelligence is a super short, easy answer. But there's all that complexity to coach somebody to grow and self reflect on.
Speaker 3:I'm curious, phil, I mean because I have, I mean similar. I was computer science and that's my background, right, and there was I never really placed, never really learned or never really learned. I've never really placed an emphasis on that. I mean, you've seemed to have come so far so early in life, and when did you first realize the importance of emotional intelligence? Was there a light bulb moment? Is it something that just kind of evolved over time? Don't remember.
Speaker 4:I don't remember a moment where I was like, oh, emotional intelligence, this is the thing I think like I have to. Just it is pure luck of just like the experiences that I was given, cause I so engineering degree, also philosophy degree, so I'm a weird duck to begin with, and then also very my family's very catholic and I was raised very, very catholic, like I was on the path to go into the priesthood for a minute. So like I think, like I'm just wired weird to begin with. But then like the way the navy trained me and even that bridge of going like very technical engineering and then stepping up forward and leading people through incredibly stressful environments, you just you have you don't have to care for people, but if you don't, you're going to really struggle. And it like I just had some really good mentors on my boat, two amazing CEOs, two amazing executive officers, like folks that showed me that you need to do both to get the best out of the people around you. So it was a very slow evolution of things.
Speaker 4:And the reason I definitely feel that way is because, like I can vaguely remember Phil as like a teenager and an early 20 something in college and like I knew way more then than I know now and I'm amazed at how much I have lost confidence in since that age. So I know that when I showed up to the Navy I was not the servant leader, humble, like it was like be the smartest person in the room, always know the right answer and then I got that clock cleaned a couple of times and realized that there's a lot to learn and that approach is definitely healthier.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I'm not surprised that you brought up two mentors specifically, right, because so often for so many people you need that somebody or people to kind of show you the way.
Speaker 3:You know you need that somebody or people to show you the way. So I think it's pretty cool. So switching gears a little bit. You know we love Ted isms all throughout the series and Ted drops one in the middle of this episode when he's talking to Rebecca. You know her little conundrum with Sam and he says you know, listen to your gut and on the way down, check with your. You know, listen to your gut and on the way down, check with your heart.
Speaker 2:Just listen to your gut, okay, and on your way down to your gut, check in with your heart. Between those two things, we'll let you know what's what Right and we can.
Speaker 3:We can probably parse that one statement eight ways to Sunday, but it, it, it made us think, you know, specifically because we talk a lot about leadership. You know we're looking for advice always from our guests and we're curious about your perspective on that balance between intuition and emotion when you have to make big decisions. Anything you can share along those lines.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I want to definitely downplay the like wisdom piece because, again, ripe old age of, like you know, my mid thirties, that I feel definitely not qualified, but I kind of circling back. The one thing is just having that healthy awareness of your own feelings is the first thing. Having the confidence to trust your intuition is definitely a real thing where sometimes it's the courage to just know somebody has to make the decision. You look around and realize that like I'm the adult in the room, as terrifying as that is. So it's on me to at least decide what the right next step is.
Speaker 2:Maybe not the whole way, but it'd be like my job is to get the team to move forward.
Speaker 4:I have to have that courage to be wrong. But I think the other important caveat is learning to recognize when your feelings are at such a high peak that you shouldn't be making important decisions in that moment. And this is definitely a very small one. But you know, we for our projects we go out and talk with war fighters and so we always kind of prep people like there are very you know.
Speaker 4:There are very powerful stories that you are going to hear and you never quite know when one is going to hit you weird, and normally I'm the one that's like warning people, because I did this for a living, for a bit.
Speaker 2:But I, just I happened to walk into an interview.
Speaker 4:It was a classmate of mine from in the training pipeline and he started talking and it was just a weird time in general. His wife was a surgeon in the army, she was abroad, they had their first kid, who happened to be the same age as my first kid. He had to move off of base housing and was living in a hotel and just like it was like the hey man, how are you doing? Let's warm up before we start talking. The like quote real conversations. And after two minutes of him just kind of like opening up and venting to me, I could feel my own emotions flooding and we always interview in pairs. So, fortunately, like I looked at my partner and I was like this is great, chris is going to take the rest of this Like Chris, what?
Speaker 4:questions do you have? And he could just see in my eyes that I didn't have it. And he led the rest of that interview and I shifted to note taking and again, like no risk, no stakes in that moment, but like when you're emotionally flooded, like you can just say, like I should not make a project changing decision or a huge financial choice in my life right now.
Speaker 4:I should sleep on this and hopefully, you have enough distance between you and like, when that decision needs to be made, that you can give it a night and then come back to it, because very rarely are things so. You must push through right now that that you need that, and if you do, that's when you, you know, even on the submarine it's like you always have somebody nearby that you can reach out to and say I need you to take this. I've lost the in our phrase. I've lost the bubble. I just I'm not able to make good decisions right now.
Speaker 1:You know we talked to so many folks about leadership and to a human, I think everyone has agreed that self-awareness is the first. Like you really have to understand yourself to be a leader and understand why you are feeling what you are feeling. So you can find a way, maybe back into the bubble, right. If you're not sure, like if you're emotionally charged and can't figure out why you're emotionally charged, that is probably the biggest threat. If you can understand yourself, maybe you can get yourself back in which I now know to be a bubble. I will, uh, I'll, use that in the future. So Trent Krim fan favorite, so he's kind of in this one turned from a journalist to a friend, to Ted right, and he has given Ted a heads up about the article where he's going to announce that Ted has a panic attack and he also well more on that. So was it ethical, in your opinion, giving him the heads up that Nate's going to be the source, right? Or did he get around that ethical conundrum by telling him as a friend?
Speaker 4:And now that I know that you studied philosophy, I can't wait to hear the answer yeah, I know, yeah, I was about to say like you're going to get up, you're going to get, on the one hand, and then, on the other hand, the old, it depends.
Speaker 1:Answer.
Speaker 4:And again, like never, never having studied journalism, but at least at like the first blush, it's like no, no, that definitely violated, like that code of journalism that you don't.
Speaker 4:You don't reveal sources, especially if you promise that source confidentiality yeah, in the moment, um, but the questions of ethics are always interesting because it it's never a clean like this is always the right choice. It is that evaluation of what is what is going to actually cause the, if not the most, help, at least what's what can I do that's going to actually cause the, if not the most, help, at least what can I do that's going to cause the least harm. And so balancing those two In this case, you know, but I think Trent made the choice that he felt resonated with his values the most. And it gets into that really messy stuff of like the things that the rules allow aren't always ethical and the things that are the right things to do aren't always allowed by the rules, and that's just where tough decisions live.
Speaker 1:So, in the world of tough decisions, have you ever been in a position where you had to deliver a tough message to someone you respected, or even you have any advice right that? Um, for someone that finds themselves in a situation like that, uh, yes, and it's.
Speaker 4:It is hard every time and so, like, none of the none of the advice is going to make it easier, uh, but I'm a firm believer. Firm believer in giving tough feedback in private.
Speaker 2:And the other piece is like asking.
Speaker 4:Like it's a really it seems silly, but like you know, hey. Nick In Tang world. We're very big Brene Brown fans, as well as Ted Lasso fans.
Speaker 4:So the language of rumble actually works for us because the team knows what that means. So being able to say like, hey, nick, can we rumble real quick? And that both signals to nick, like this is important to me, uh, but also, like you know, nick, you can genuinely tell me like, if you want me to hear this hard feedback, I'm not in the right spot for that conversation. Let's find a time where we're both in the right spot, so it lets us set the conditions for success. Um, and then it really is just be clear as kind for another bernie brownism, yeah, um, but also pairing that up with the uh, that kindness, being that caring, and even for myself, like I check in, where am I giving you this feedback? Because I genuinely feel like I know what you are aspiring to grow into and I know this was not you at best and as long as I feel that authentically authentically then I know that I'm doing this for the right reasons.
Speaker 4:Otherwise, it can be really easy for feedback to turn into a beatdown where it's like let me just list off all the ways that you didn't do this the right way and that's not actually helping the other person grow. Uh, and that's like there's always a limit and different people have different limits and different days, but it's kind of like.
Speaker 4:Sometimes it's like here's the one thing you need to do better, and then other people. It'll be like no, no, no, give me the whole list. Cause like I want to get better at all these things. Um, but if you're not sensitive to that, you're wasting time and energy. Cause after after a certain number. Some, like most people, are just like everything past the first three of emotionally shut down and I can't process it anymore.
Speaker 1:So you know I I used to be a supervisor in the school system, so I did a lot of observations and for first year teachers sometimes you walk into a real train wreck and you know the observation form you have to do. There are, say, 11 or 12 different elements that you have to score folks on and I can remember when as a leadership team, we decided that we were just going to have unscored as an acceptable response, because to give someone 12 nightmares of unacceptable, you can't hear that and and like legally, as long as the whole thing overall was unacceptable, we were on good stead there. But if we want folks to actually hear us, why don't we just pick and I would typically say something along the lines of like I'm Marcus is unacceptable. And you know these other three, we didn't really rate because this is just impacting those three. So if we can really work on like help them prioritize, I do think that very much helps.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that that explains why you've told me only 10 times today that I am unacceptable. Thank you for the color coloring clarification behind that.
Speaker 1:Now I know False Cap. Isn't that what the kids say?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, speaking of unacceptable, nate is approaching that threshold at this point in the series and he's really, he's like that boiling water that's about to pop the lid right he's. He's reaching the max of kind of where he at, where he's at, in terms of, uh, resenting, not getting credit for things.
Speaker 4:Here we go again give ted yet another idea, he'll take all the credit for um, so it made it makes us think, and obviously it's not, you know.
Speaker 3:I think we would all like to say that. You know, being part of a team's, everybody gets recognized the way they should get recognized, but that doesn't always happen. Um, so, curious for you, phil, specifically, you know, do you have any advice on handling situations where members a team member or members of the team might feel unrecognized or undervalued? Is that something that you've ever thought about?
Speaker 4:It is, and ultimately the answer is going to boil down to another it depends which are super unsatisfying. Is going to boil down to another, it depends, which are, uh, super unsatisfying. But I can at least go down both paths because, uh, especially on our projects, we very much believe in like a win for one is a win for all. So even within a project it's the project team did really really well because, uh, you know, I'm up what? When I'm in the project lead role, I'm up on stage a lot briefing to whoever the stakeholder is senior executive, admiral I'm more visible. But there are brilliant developers in the background who built that virtual reality prototype that the admiral was so wowed by. And even though I'm quote unquote better at telling the story, they did just as much. And rather than leaning into like, how do you parse out? Like who gets 3% credit, 10% credit, 12 and one quarter percent credit, we're just like, no, like, if you take one leg away, the whole thing collapses. So this whole project team is doing really really well and then we'll scale that up even to the program level of a win for one project means that the whole, like all of are get to bask in some of that glory, um, and and we push that out as much as we can across the program. So that's one way to help um.
Speaker 4:But where the real fork in the road is like, sometimes I have felt, you know, underappreciated where I'm like man, like I worked really hard in the background and now this amazing thing is happening but no one came up to me and gave me the appropriate ego stroking that I feel like I'm due in that moment and I'll caveat this with, like you know, I'm the standard issue white dude, prior military service member, so I'm probably not the one whose career is truly in jeopardy because I'm not getting enough credit is truly in jeopardy because I'm not getting enough credit. Like then, that's where, having a trusted friend who I can reach out to and be like I'm feeling this way, that trusted friend can reflect back Like hey, man, you just had like seven other wins. You can let this one go, let them have this one and you, you need that and you put like both me building up my own self-awareness of hey, like I don't need one more. It's more important for especially a junior leader to get that win. It's not as so important for the senior leaders, and for senior leaders. It's kind of like you take a little bit from every win and it's the portfolio view, which is a struggle that I'm going through right now. Portfolio view which is a struggle that I'm going through right now. So that's my side.
Speaker 4:The more like complicated side, and especially in a world where we have a lot of young female engineers, there are people who truly get looked over and that's the piece where, again, as you know, as much advice as I can give to other leaders is you have to kind of keep whether it's written down or some mental tracker of who has gotten a spotlight recently but also who is uncomfortable in the spotlight and how else can I give them that recognition? Because it doesn't feel fair to take somebody who's a little more introverted, doesn't like being in front of people and be like great job. How about you stand up front of everybody and tell them how amazing you are? Like that's just torture to them.
Speaker 4:So things that we do are having little gratitude rituals at the beginning of every weekly standup that we do. Anybody on the team can put a sticky on the board of just like hey, great job to whoever. Everybody reads them. You can put a voice to them if you want. But I also know that some people that seeing their name on a sticky they didn't have to get pulled in front of the group, they just see their name and they know that somebody saw what they were doing. That can be enough. So it's finding as many different modalities as you can to give people that feeling of being seen, and I think oftentimes we confuse being seen with like a formal recognition. A lot of times people just knowing that somebody noticed what they did is enough for them to keep showing up with passion, but also never to overlook like those moments of being seen have to build up to career growth so people don't just end up in a in a back corner working away unrecognized.
Speaker 3:So on. On behalf of so many introverts in this world today, I want to thank you. I mean seriously, I mean you said that so well because you hit one of my core issues, especially younger, when I was really kind of closed in which was I did want attention. I did want not attention, I did want recognition, but I didn't want to be the center of attention because it just was very uncomfortable for me and I, you know, I think I was probably fortunate enough to have people who did exactly what you said, but I'm not sure I noticed just the way you articulated it there and, thinking about the different modalities and the different types of people out there is. I appreciate it and I think it'll be very valuable for other people to hear that, just the way you described it.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting, there are in the company that Nick and I worked for. In one of the acquisitions one of the bad ones they had a reward system. So you'd have to give points, right. So I would get, as the director, I would get 300 points and I had to allocate it to so-and-so, you know, to whoever I thought deserved it. And it was interesting because I had been trained at some point like literally at the same time on you should ask people what they, how they like to be rewarded.
Speaker 1:And so I knew for a fact that my lead consultant did not like getting these points. She felt like that was beneath her, whereas the younger folks that worked for me loved getting those points, and so I knew that. So I didn't typically give her points, but before I left, I gave her a whole pile of points when I had quit and she texted me and said what are you doing? I don't want those points. And I called her and I left. I gave her a whole pile of points when I had quit and she texted me and said what are you doing? I don't want those points. And I called her and I said the people in this company are going to look at these points and they're going to decide some things about who needs to stay moving forward, and you are the top producer, and so I need to use this as a signal for them. Plus, I knew it would just pluck your last nerve a bit and I think that's kind of fun to do Because we had a teasing sort of relationship.
Speaker 1:But it was important because otherwise she really was like what the heck? You know I hate this. I'm like sorry I have to do this this time for you, but it is good to ask people like do you want your name on the announcements? Would you like a cake? You know, would you like a certificate? And everybody's got different things when it comes to that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, building on that a little bit, and I think that is kind of like the essence of the difference between like leadership and management and coaching. In the coaching side it is the asking them where they like, what are you aspiring to become and helping them get there. As opposed to like management is a little bit more how do you help them navigate a complex system? Because you've been there longer and you know more. And then leadership is helping people get through change. But that that interaction between coaching and leadership can be, I you know, especially for young introverts who look and it's like I would like to become a project leader, it's like great.
Speaker 4:You do understand that that means you must stand in front of people and talk to them if you are going to lead them. So you can be an introvert and lead. And, oddly, like I identify as an introvert but I definitely skew a little bit more introverted. But, like for other folks who are even more introverted than me, it's weak. We can help you find your rituals that you know, help you shelter your energy and then build up your energy and then do it and then recover.
Speaker 4:Um, but at this, but to your point, marnie, like you can't wish the world worked differently. Right Like, if you want that role, you're going to have to behave to match some of those expectations. And sometimes people see that as playing the game, but kind of like no, that's just, that's the way the system is working. You can do it. You know, you have those super extroverts that are just like I will go to coffee, meet five different people and then like work, a networking event for all day and then go to three happy hours afterwards. I was like that sounds awful, but there are some people that love that. That is why you are a CEO and you're amazing at it. But yeah, finding, helping, helping other folks find the way for them to show up in that world just not in the same volume.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that, not in the same volume. You know, Nick and I were super excited when we got to come visit Tang and it's interesting, as you're talking about the way the team works, Like we got to see that live and in action with the I Like I Wish I Wonder and the brainstorming activities and the way everyone talked and contributed. I don't think we could say enough of how impressive that team was. I don't mean to speak for you, Nick, but I know we both walked away pretty impressed. I have one more episode question for you Sam. Face life-changing decision here stay or leave ASC Richmond. So how do you advise young folks, young professionals, team members, when they're at sort of a major career crossroads? What advice would you have for them?
Speaker 4:So the best like concrete example. So, coming out of the Navy, you have a couple moments in your career where you can decide am I signing up for the next tour or get out?
Speaker 4:So the time that this comes up the most is, you know, first, after your first submarine tour and then JO tour, you have an opportunity to resign or to stay in, and I've talked with several lieutenants folks that I worked with and then a couple that, like peers, have said you should talk to Phil because they're kind of discerning. Which way do they go? And there are lots of reasons why people get out. It's very time demanding. You don't really get to choose where you live. The hours can be long If you're having kids or like you're going to miss birthdays, births of children, like you're giving up a lot. It is a true sacrifice to be active duty. So there are all these good reasons to leave, which is why I will ask people what are you running away from, and we'll just vent off all the reasons why being an officer in the Navy is truly hard, and we got to kind of clear that air first.
Speaker 4:And then the next question is what are you running towards? And I think that second one is the important balance for any major. You know I'm looking at a major change, but the reason that that second one is so important for me is because if you don't know what you're moving towards, you'll alleviate the immediate frustrations that you're feeling, but you have a better odds of ending up somewhere that just has different frustrations or slightly less frustrations kind of thing yeah, you're gonna end up moving again.
Speaker 4:Yeah, um, and even for me, when I was at that crossroads, uh, I did not know 10 existed before I went on shore duty and then I bumped into it.
Speaker 4:So it's, it's hard, because it's even like, if you ask too soon, you may, you don't even know what's out there, so it's almost more of like be open to what that next thing is and, uh, you may not find the thing that like grabs your heart and drags you into the next thing, but at least be looking so that you have something to aim towards, as well as knowing what boundaries you want to hold. So the next, the next life chapter is is less frustrating and more joyful.
Speaker 1:Do submarine operators say the grass is greener on the other side, or do you have like the ocean is bluer on the other side?
Speaker 4:I'm just curious down deep no, no, we're much more cynical than that. Uh, the the internal joke, and this one can get edited post post-processing. Uh, the most of the once we shut the hatches, it's a closed system. So all the happiness that went in when we got underway, that's all the happiness you have. So the only way to get more happiness is to take it from somebody else, and so it becomes kind of a Hunger Games situation.
Speaker 2:Of happiness.
Speaker 4:Of happiness exchanges, but yeah, no, there's no colloquialism like the grass is greener.
Speaker 3:All right, good to know. Phil, we can't thank you enough. I mean, this has been awesome. So many wise words, you know. Curious. Any parting words for us? Would you like to leave any information on how people might be able to connect you with you on LinkedIn or something to that effect?
Speaker 4:Anything like that. Linkedin is definitely the best. It's just Philip Friedidoff got to spell it E-I-D in the last name. But yeah, linkedin is the best way to stay connected and I'm happy to chat about all the leadership questions. Just know that it depends is the most common starting answer. And then we drill down into more specifics from there.
Speaker 1:I love that. You know what. That would be a great tagline on LinkedIn, like the it depends guy or like you know something along those lines of like when you're pretty sure it depends. I'm happy to help you dig out of that one or something. I I'm sure there's something catchier than that, but I like it.
Speaker 3:Awesome. Thanks so much, phil. We really really appreciate this.
Speaker 4:Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 3:Okay.
.jpg)
