The Drug Report
The Drug Report
Interview with Dr. Robert Marbut about his upcoming film, "Fentanyl: Death Incorporated"
The fentanyl crisis represents one of America's most pressing public health emergencies, one that has affected countless families and communities across the country. In this engaging episode with Dr. Robert Marbut, we explore the alarming statistics surrounding fentanyl's impact, which has become a leading cause of death, eclipsing even the toll from warfare. Dr. Marbut, a distinguished expert on homelessness and addiction, unpacks the connection between structural issues like mental health and substance use, shedding light on the intricacies of these intertwined crises.
Throughout our conversation, we delve into how societal factors such as loneliness and consumer culture contribute to higher rates of fentanyl use and addiction. Dr. Marbut emphasizes the importance of reclaiming family dynamics in the fight against addiction, noting that two-thirds of the experts pointed to the need for strengthening family bonds as a crucial step toward alleviating these issues.
Listeners gain unique insights into the making of the documentary “Fentanyl: Death Incorporated,” which aims to bring these discussions to a broader audience. Dr. Marbutt shares behind-the-scenes anecdotes that underscore the power of storytelling as a means to foster empathy and inspire action.
This episode isn't just about statistics; it's an urgent call to consider how we can collectively change our response to the crisis. By fostering a culture of connection, understanding, and accountability, we stand a better chance against this existential threat. Join us in this important discussion and explore how you can be part of the solution.
Subscribe for more insightful discussions on drug policy, community action, and strategies to tackle addiction head-on. Don’t forget to leave a review and share this episode with someone who can help raise awareness.
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Yes or no? Do you believe nicotine is not addictive?
Speaker 2:I believe nicotine is not addictive. Yes, Congressman, cigarettes and nicotine clearly do not meet the classic definitions of addiction. I don't believe that nicotine for our products are addictive? I believe nicotine is not addictive. I believe that nicotine is not addictive.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone, this is Luke Niferatos. I'm your host of the Drug Report podcast and thank you for joining us again. Again, this is made possible by our two sponsoring organizations, that is, sam, smart Approaches to Marijuana, as well as FDPS, the Foundation for Drug Policy Solutions. Those two organizations make this podcast and all of them possible, and I want to thank you all for joining us for another episode and apologize for the hiatus. Unfortunately, both I and my family have been subject to the you know, I will call them plagues of Egypt at this point all the illnesses circulating around these days, so my voice has been totally out of commission. It's great to have my voice back a little bit, but you'll probably notice it's a little off, so bear with me on this. So, without further ado, I'm really excited about the guest we have on the podcast today.
Speaker 1:He is a really renowned expert on homelessness and now fentanyl nationally, so I'm going to read his bio. It's Dr Robert Marbutt, and he is a renowned expert on homelessness and a senior fellow of the Discovery Institute Center on Wealth and Poverty. Dr Marbutt has a PhD in political behavior and American political institutions, and his career has been marked by bipartisanship, having served as a chief of staff for San Antonio Mayor Henry Cisneros in the 1980s, as a White House fellow under George HW Bush and most recently as the executive director of the US Interagency Council on Homelessness from 2019 to 2021. So he served for both President Trump and President Biden and their administrations. Additionally, he served on the board of directors of the United States Olympic Committee from 1992 to 2004. So, dr Marbutt, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me and, more importantly, thank you for caring about the fentanyl crisis.
Speaker 1:You bet. So obviously our organizations are working on drug policy, you know, globally working on fentanyl and marijuana and everything else in between. And so, dr Morabot, you know I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about. So we're here today to talk about your documentary that you're the senior producer for. It's called Fentanyl Death Incorporated really powerful documentary on the fentanyl crisis and what the country's facing as it relates to that crisis. So before we get into that though before we kind of dive into that documentary, I'd love to know you started out working on homelessness nationally. Talk to me about that experience and then how it led to your interest in the fentanyl crisis.
Speaker 2:Well, when you look at homelessness, there's no way to talk about homelessness without talking about substance use disorders and addiction. That you just can't. 75% of the street-level homelessness in America has some sort of substance use disorder and that is based off the largest study ever done by the Public Policy Lab Not a right-wing think tank, actually a left-wing think tank, a combination of UCLA and UC Berkeley and they did the largest study ever of the homelessness community and 75% had in their clinical charts serious substance use disorder, more often than not with the co-contributing untreated mental illness. So there was a lot of self-medicating going on. But what was even a bigger surprise in this is 50% of that study self-reported. That substance use disorder was directly the loss of their housing, and anytime you get a self-report north of 50, I think it was 51%. That's amazing because we all know that those sorts of surveys under report. And so that's to me how I went from homelessness into prior to fentanyl it was meth, coke, crack, k2 spice, but then now I've moved, now it's really just fentanyl now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really obviously a dangerously potent drug that is wreaking carnage across American families. So talk to me about the journey, then, that you made so you identified this trend was happening. Talk to me about the journey from you're working on homelessness, where did you then go?
Speaker 2:And then, how did you fall into this documentary? Well, when I started working on homelessness, you just start to realize if you don't deal with the root causes, if you just deal with the bandaid, I lost my house, I lost my job, I lost my car. You're not going to solve it. So if I could get your car back, I could get you some housing back, I might even get you a job somewhere else, but then you're going to lose those again. So if you really want to address homelessness in the right way, where it's long term, moving people towards self-sufficiency, you have to deal with substance abuse. You have to deal with substance abuse. And how I jumped from sort of being a wonky nerdy, you know, white paper writer and all that and you need that.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't want to take away from that, but I was meeting with a senator while I was still at the White House and he's a good friend. I met somebody I really admired, really trusted, you know, really thought well on this, and I made a comment about fentanyl. This is about four and a half years ago and I said fentanyl is starting to really take over the street away from, and I specifically mentioned meth and he said, yeah, fentanyl is just a stronger version of meth. And I'm like here's a senator who's on the right committee, who's friendly, I mean, you know he's a good guy. I don't want to name names to embarrass, but fentanyl and meth are almost opposite sides of family and for those who don't know, meth is like sort of like hyperactive. You know anything in the? You know?
Speaker 1:It's a stimulant.
Speaker 2:Stimulant world. I mean it's like caffeine times 1,000 times. And fentanyl actually paralyzes your chest cavity. Without getting too technical about it. It paralyzes your chest cavity. That's why you see the fentanyl bend or the fentanyl fold, where somebody's standing up and they're bent over and their chest cavity is paralyzed. And then that affects your heart. It slows your heart rate down to a point where sometimes you die because it stops your heart rate. And the same thing with your lungs. So it slows your lungs breathing capacity. It paralyzes your chest cavity and slows your heart rate down to a point where many people die because you either stop breathing or the heart stops beating or both.
Speaker 2:And so I realized I wrote all these white papers, I was sending it in to him and his staff and he said a comment like that and I go. I now realize that white papers can only move people so much and that storytelling and Hollywood movies and documentaries are the way to the future to start moving people and storytelling in shorter formats. And so that's where I really realized I need to make that jump and still be grounded in fact, and use the white papers as the framework or the skeletal framework. But if you don't have storytelling with it. You're not going to move the general population.
Speaker 1:That's great. So tell me, you know, obviously it's one thing to say, okay, we need to do more broader-based education, we need to kind of go back to the basics. A film would be helpful, but you know it's pretty hard to pull off a, you know, really professional and beautiful film like the one that you've pulled off. So talk to us about how that kind of came together.
Speaker 2:Well, the great thing is when Warner Brothers, we signed a tentative distribution deal or a framework of a deal on June 28th of last year and, by the way, warner says this is the fastest movie or documentary they've ever seen developed and I got a team together and I said this is about life and death. We have a chance to save a lot of lives, both from a broader policy what we need to do but also at a family level how to help families deal with addiction inside their family or in friends, and so we really wanted to do that. So I got a group of people together and literally the day we signed with Warner Brothers, I call up our director of photographer in our editor and I said all right, we got to have this done by October 15th. He says July 1 is this weekend and we don't have a single person set up to be interviewed. How in the world do you think you're going to do it? And so we decided to do normally a documentary you take a crew of seven or eight people and you move them around the country to meet with one person. So I had a hunch that so many people were dedicated on this issue. If we did it a little differently and do one shoot a week for four weeks. So we shoot all day long, pick a place, change the background in the set, and it's a different way to shooting a documentary and it might become the way people start thinking about it differently. So instead of moving a crew around, I put a crew in a location.
Speaker 2:Then we set it up and Stephen Woolworth, our director, and I sort of like hey, this may be, you know, we were doing it because out of need and necessity, which often creates innovation, and so we called up everybody we were going to interview and said we're going to shoot in San Diego, we're going to shoot in this location, this location, when can you come? And of everybody we wanted to interview, we got them interviewed and they flew in. So we would fly them in rather than a whole crew. And what was so unbelievable about it and this wasn't intended is the first day a person come in and then they listen to the next. And then another person came in early and they listened. People weren't leaving our set. Everybody said, oh, I have a real tight schedule, I can only come in for an hour, and by about 1.30 in the afternoon we had five or six people who had prior been interviewed and they're watching all the interviews and we started realizing we had some of the smartest people in the world, literally on fentanyl.
Speaker 2:So after Stephen and I asked the questions, we turned to the peanut gallery. That were people we interviewed earlier in the day and said, do you have any questions? And so we had to get them behind the camera so people would keep the sight line. And so we had other guests interviewing the other interviewees and it was the most incredible thing, and to a T, each of our four major shootings. They all set up subgroups to stay in touch and so we had people from foreign intelligence officers you know intelligence world that we had to hide. We had, you know, fbi, dea, local law enforcement, state law enforcement policymakers. We had two fentanyl doctors like research anesthesiologists. So we have parents and family who sadly lost people to fentanyl and so we had the sort of science, the chemistry, the law enforcement, the family story, the loneliness story, psychologists, and they all started cross-pollinating and it made the movie in the documentary way better than we could have ever imagined.
Speaker 1:And it sounds like just an explosion of creativity and kind of organic information just coming out of that process.
Speaker 2:It was amazing. And then within within 28 days we had had all the principal photography shot. Now we had some pieces we needed to pick up and we knew we needed to do. You know, up front we had we wanted to do one little sort of micro feature. So we went to Arkansas just for that one. But we got everything shot in a month and our my director was like. He was like I can't believe we got the in in everybody.
Speaker 2:We sort of picked five people in every category and we said, all right, we hope to get two of the top five In every category. We got the top two person and in some categories we were worried we weren't going to get. So we invited like maybe four deep. Everybody said yes, everybody said yes. And the only one person we were hoping to shoot was the deputy police chief of Mexico and he was on our list and sadly he was executed by the cartels while we were filming our project and he was the only one. So we get, we talk a little bit about him and sort of honor him for what his hero. I mean, this is an incredible hero. If you're in Mexico and you're standing up to the cartels, we need to thank you and acknowledge you, and he was the only person we didn't get interviewed that was on our list. Everybody else came in and was interviewed and we had a fabulous diversity of talent that are so much smarter than any of the crew or the production team was.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic. So I want to get further in this documentary, but real quick, because I know everyone's wondering this at this point, which is where can they watch this? Where can they find it?
Speaker 2:We're about ready to go to national streaming and we're going to be in theaters the next six weeks for like a one night only theater experience in New York, starting next Friday, and then we're going to go in and do Atlanta, then Nashville, little Rock and we're going to move that around, and then we're going to be going to national streaming.
Speaker 1:Fantastic, okay, okay. So everyone's got to either check out those cities and look up the documentary I'm assuming, and you know they can find out where it's being played or, um, sit tight for the streaming services, which I know it's going to be really exciting to to be able to watch that, and that should be happening within about 68 weeks here and you'll see the plan that that warner brothers has is.
Speaker 2:It's going to be you won't miss it type of deal. It will be everywhere.
Speaker 1:That's exciting, that's exciting.
Speaker 2:And so Fentanyl Death Incorporated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fentanyl Death Incorporated Okay, great. So, given we can't all watch it and get all the big themes out of it at this point, can you kind of tell us what you think are some of the key themes of the documentary that it explores and maybe the big messages that you want folks to take away from this?
Speaker 2:Well, the big message is fentanyl is an existential threat to our country, and some people have made fun of me because I've I've remind people that fentanyl has killed more people in America than Mussolini, tojo and Hitler combined, and most people stop and go no way. You know, in terms of Americans Now, worldwide, that's a different deal. But when you look at it, more American men and women have died from fentanyl overdose and poisoning in the last four and a half years than all American men and women in services to our last hundred years of war. So if you start at World War II, korea, vietnam, global War on Terror, gulf War I, gulf War II, afghanistan, iraq, kosovo and a few smaller UN actions, add up the entire death in theater and directly to theater. So we're using the wider KIA term Still more people have died in fentanyl in the last four and a half years than 100 years of Americans at war. And if that doesn't get your attention, it is just crazy, and I know you've been doing this for a long time. And the death rate inside substance use disorders basically, has increased seven to eight times just in the last five years because of fentanyl. And so then that gets you to.
Speaker 2:What do you do about it. One you got to get tough on China. China is bringing in the precursors. You got to get tough. You got to get tough on the Mexican cartels. Hopefully we'll get an arrangement with Mexico, the way we did Colombia to go after Pablo Escobar. You need that level of integration and you don't want to do it unilaterally unless you have to. You might have to, but you hope to have an integrated program.
Speaker 2:The other is brand new, just during the time of our shooting of the movie is how much has gone through Canada now? The biker gangs in Canada are replacing the cartels in many ways and the US-Canadian border is the longest linear border in the world between two countries, a land border. So we've got to focus on Canada, it can't just be Mexico only. And then we've got to go after the local gangs who are doing the local distribution. And finally and I know this is very much up the line that you've spent a lot of time. You and I have known each other two or three years now and you talk a lot about it.
Speaker 2:Why do Americans, citizens who are 4.25% of the world, you know, less K2, spice and everything up? United States citizens generally are consuming 30 to 40%. Right now we're consuming about 38% of the fentanyl worldwide, yet we're under 5% of the population. We got to have an honest conversation about why United States has gotten to that point and the Mexican president who we were trying to film and we ended up getting he gave us some great clips. He points out and I think this is very important if America keeps over-consuming at our rate, he said I'll knock that, and this is the prior president of Mexico. He said if I can take down one cartel, another cartel is going to pop up and fill that supply Unless you, united States, get serious about the internal. Why are we over consuming these drugs?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you make great points there, because we have to have the supply reduction, but there's multiple legs of the stool and the stool can't stand without all the legs. So we have to do a better job with supply reduction because it is bringing poisonous chemicals and precursors into our country that are contributing to this. But we also have to deal, as you allude to, with the demand as well, and how do we deal with that demand? And I think you make a great point there and so love to kind of hear your thoughts on kind of. You know you make a great point.
Speaker 1:You know why is America such a massive consumer of drugs? And it's interesting. You know there was some talk the other day about how our economy 70% of the American economy is a consumer economy. You know we're not. So the vast majority of our economy is based on consumption and people buying goods and services, and so we have an environment that is just pushing consumption. And you blend that with what you were talking about earlier about the loneliness and isolation, and then you have our mental health crisis, where it's pushing people to consume as a way to fill some of those holes. So I'd love to, I guess, just hear you opine a little bit on that dynamic and how that's driving demand in this crisis.
Speaker 2:And this is that fifth conversation that we failed to have too much. We need to have this conversation as much as we're talking about the Mexican cartels, the Canadian biker gangs and the China. They all have to talk about it and part of the United States' issue when we got into it with the real experts and think of this in terms of homelessness. Most of the people who are co-presenting so they have an untreated mental illness and they have a substance abuse. Most started out with untreated mental illness and became self-medicating. That's the real truth. It's a myth to think you started out as a substance use and developed a mental illness.
Speaker 1:That's a powerful statistic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's probably 6%, 7%, 8% that started out as a recreational drug user and then developed a mental illness. But that's the exception, that is not the rule. So why do we have a-funded beds for mental illness in America? And one side of the aisle said we're going to stop funding, that we don't think that's a priority. Government should not be in the mental illness game. So one side started doing that. Then the other side said we don't want to criminalize mental health, we want to deinstitutionalize mental health.
Speaker 2:They were watching when it Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, thought it was a documentary rather than fiction and they went to try to close down all mental health beds. Now the place that's loosely developed around. When it Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest there were two of them but one was out on Long Island and I've been out to that site and it is a creepy site. I mean it is creepy and that place needed to be closed down. But you don't close down the entire system, you fix the system, you don't close it down.
Speaker 2:So think about our country is 40 to 50% bigger in population, higher number than in 1950. And during that time we've gone from 500,000 government funded beds to under 30,000 beds and all are forensic, meaning if law enforcement, judge doesn't put you there, you are not there. And so some people argue our number of beds is closer to zero. But I think we got to be honest because that would get you tripped up if we don't talk about the real facts. But we've gone from a half million beds to under 30,000 beds, even though our country is much, much bigger.
Speaker 2:Where did they go? To the street, to jails, to some extent state prisons. That should worry us because we all know how bad that is. We know that doesn't work, we know that's not best practices by any imagination, but that's where we have come, and so we need to bring treatment and recovery back. I have a mantra and I know you've heard it before and I really believe it, and to me it drives my policy and it drives like if I work in a local city or big policy. Right now in America we're making it so easy to get high and so hard to get treatment. We need to flip it on the head and make it easy to get treatment and hard to get high, and if we are only to do one thing, that's it.
Speaker 1:Right, and there are so many policy instruments that come with that right.
Speaker 1:It's the demand reduction we've talked about in terms of the borders and foreign issues, but that's also at home, reducing the supply of available commercial addictive drugs, which, as you know, is what our organizations work on. We shouldn't have legal marijuana, psychedelics and whatever other drug is next on Advocates Playbook to become legally and widely available and advertised. And so I think, as long as we continue to prey upon those behaviors and I think that statistic you gave is a really critical one that so many of the folks who are now either dying of fentanyl overdoses or are now suffering of homelessness and addiction started with an underlying mental health disorder that they are now treating. And you know I couldn't help but think of, you know, medical marijuana, where we have people saying, well, this is treating whatever my mental health issues are. And now we're seeing that with psychedelics as well, where people are self-medicating their mental health disorders and, in many cases, are making it worse, and so I think that you know that's a really critical point. I think that a lot of people are missing.
Speaker 2:And doctor-led, based off of best practices treatment is what we need. The last thing you need is self-medication from people who have no idea what they're doing, or it's political bumper stick jargon. You know, let's let you know, weed kills nobody, and so it becomes a bumper sticker and it becomes political jargon. That is the worst thing we should be doing. But we also should realize why is our country over consuming? And some of that is you know we, we've done so poorly on untreated mental illness. Some of it is we're a consumer based society that you hit just perfectly, set that up and then you add our country is sort of a uh, you know, take one pill for everything. You got a learning disability. You take a pill.
Speaker 1:You got the easy button solution.
Speaker 2:You take a pill and, rather than dealing with, let's go to yoga, let's go to workout, let's go to the gym, let's get better sleep, let's eat better, let's hydrate, let's take a pill instead and try to find the easy, fast way out. And I think all that together and then you combine that with the epidemic of loneliness and in some ways, you know these things, you know these phones, you know one of the things we talked about, a couple of our speakers talked about in our documentary, is the need to put your phones down. Have family dinners together where you talk to each other, you listen to each other, you do it and my family and my kids, like at first, like you're like, but you know, dad, you're being too strict. You know my girlfriend's calling, my boyfriend's calling. I'm like, put your phones down to a point now that they like it so much. Your phones down to a point now that they like it so much when, when, like I'll, my phone starts ringing.
Speaker 2:The other day my one of my daughters like she said, hey, put your phone down. You know you can get it when you get upstairs. You know we're doing family time now. I thought, hey, it's working. I'm now being called out by my daughter on on the need to put the phone down, called out by my daughter on the need to put the phone down, and so we need to communicate more and listen more in our families and friends, and that also helps part of it. So I don't think it's one thing only. You know, it's a package of things.
Speaker 1:It's a package of things for sure.
Speaker 1:And actually you know, this conversation around isolation and kind of finding ways for meaningful connection and meaningful outlets to kind of avoid getting into that spiral of disorder made me think of I don't know if you were following the news a few days ago there's a town in Kentucky that is using some of the opioid abatement funds, based on the Icelandic model of prevention, providing other kinds of community outlets for people, and so what they did was part of the expenditures, a very small percentage of it.
Speaker 1:It was $15,000. They put in to build an ice skating rink for kids to go and meet up at, but they were actually taking some flack in the press for doing that instead of just purchasing around 330 doses of Narcan with that money and I just was scratching my head at the story, thinking it's $15,000. It's not the entire sum of funds and what they're trying to do is invest in the problem of isolation by fixing it, by providing opportunities for communities to come together. And it'd be one thing if they're spending all the money on it, but they're spending just I mean, it's not nothing, but just $15,000 of that money to provide an outlet for kids.
Speaker 2:And if you can get a thousand kids to go, that's way better than all these other things that are talked about. And I got to tell you some of the opioid money on the West Coast in particular and I hate to pick on California, washington State and Oregon, but a lot of that. They're talking about money going towards safe consumption of drugs. So we're using money from a settlement that missaid drugs when it be addictive and it wouldn't be so powerful and it ended up being more deadly than ever and more addictive than ever. So the why that came with it so we're going to use that settlement to give you more of another type of drug is just mind boggling to me, and it goes back to my mantra why are we making it easier to get high? We need to make it harder to get high and easier to get treatment. So any dollar of the opioid settlement that goes to healthy alternatives and treatment to me is just a way better use than saying we're going to do the clean needles.
Speaker 2:We're going to do this and that and harm reduction has been hijacked, now that to me it's enabling drug use in most parts of the country, and I really think if we have compassion without accountability it becomes enablement.
Speaker 1:Yep, you're absolutely right about that and that's a principle that you've stuck to throughout your years of service to the country and we very much appreciate that you have. So I know we're kind of running low on time, but I wanted to give you a chance to maybe share what you thought was maybe the most powerful story that comes out of your documentary that I guess really left an impact on you and you want to share with our listeners before we wrap our podcast.
Speaker 2:Gosh, that it's hard to pick one because we had so many family members we talked to about the loss of their child. Sometimes it was addiction, sometimes it was overdose, sometimes it was poisoning. We have a mom that we have in the documentary whose three-year-old son died because there was fentanyl dust on a countertop and they put food on and and, probably with the cookie, picked it up and ate it. So the the sad stories of the family are are just so powerful and everyone's a little different and every family member you know it, it it just. And so much of it is poisoning and accidental. Some of it's addiction, I get that, but those were all sad.
Speaker 2:The one thing that was really shocking as we outlined the movie and we sort of said, what do we want to get? And we wanted to make sure it was one hour so we can play it in classrooms. And, to our absolute surprise, we interviewed 65, 68 top experts in their field and all we asked was a question if you were king or queen of the day, what would you do to make change? What policy, what things would you do? And we're expecting everybody to say get tough on China and go after the cartels and go after the biking, and we got some of that. And go after the cartels and go after the bike gangs, and we got some of that.
Speaker 2:But two-thirds of the people we asked that question across the board all brought up breakdown of the family. We weren't asking that question. We didn't ask about breaking down of the family, but that's what two-thirds of our experts across all sorts of sub-disciplines on the fentanyl crisis came back and said we need to rebuild the family. We need to have the family listen to each other, be there for each other, spend quality time with each other and quantity time not just quality but quantity time and have us be there for each other. That was a surprise to us because it came from our intelligence officers, it came from our anesthesiologists. Of course it came from families. Of course it came from the psychology, but it also came from the FBI and the DEA and the local law enforcement. And that was probably our biggest aha moment is how important rebuilding those connections and it could be a very formal, traditional family, but it could also be a family made up of deep, deep friends and rebuilding that connectivity.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful. What a powerful conclusion to this. Thank you, dr Marbutt, for the great work you're doing. And again, everyone. It's Fentanyl, death Incorporated. It's going to be coming to streaming services soon. It's going to be in some select cities for theatrical showings. Dr Marbutt, before we leave, can you share with folks where they can find you online any way they can follow the work that you're doing nationally?
Speaker 2:If you go to fentanyldeathincorporatedcom or fdicom FDI movie there are a couple of ways you can get to us and just type in that and you will get our website and from there you can see where our screenings are. You can get tickets, you'll know what we're doing on the streaming services. When we get to there you can see some features from the movies and we really feature our experts and I got to think you know we got 60 of the top in each subfield of this issue. And the coolest thing that I've enjoyed on the movie is everywhere we've showed it.
Speaker 2:You know we've shown it to a lot of experts, shown it to a lot of experts to a T. I thought they were all going to come in and say I heard that, heard that, and I was hoping they would say oh, you packaged it nicely. But every single expert we've shown it to they said I had no idea. And then they have a take that they knew their area well but they didn't know another part of the issue well. And that's so exciting when real experts in the field are saying we learned something. We learned something different. We learned something outside our lane. We also learned how important we all need to. All these subgroups need to be working together Because if you do this with law enforcement alone, it will not work. They're a critical piece, but they're not the only piece to make this, to solve this issue.
Speaker 1:That's great. Well, thank you so much for joining us at the Drug Report Podcast. Keep up the good work, Dr Marbutt, and thank you to our listeners, as always, for your support. Please leave us a review and five-star rating. We always appreciate that, and have a great rest of your week.