Meet Jonathan Marion: Can Injury Steal Your Worth?

One morning, Jonathan’s life was shattered by a sudden injury that left him bedridden. Months of nerve pain, delayed diagnosis, and slow recovery forced him to face impossible choices—about his body, identity, and what “worth” means when you can’t do what you used to.

In this episode, we get raw about three truths of chronic pain: how recovery moves in small, painful steps; why shifting from “should” to “could” changes everything; and how the BEING strategy— Begin where you are, Explore what you want, Identify your options, Now start, and Go. You can rebuild your life on your own terms.

Jonathan also shares simple ways to calm your nervous system.Learn and use “future casting” to avoid regret in tough moments. If you’re struggling with chronic pain or burnout, this honest talk offers real tools and a clear perspective to help you keep moving forward.

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https://jonathanmarion.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-s-marion/

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

How do you live and manage your pain? Pain into strength with your host, published author, and certified health practitioner, Michelle Eberwine.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Hi, I'm Michelle.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Jonathan, pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Yes, Doctor. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:22

I'm fine. And you can, I mean, in the introduction, if you want to say doctor, but as far as speaking, Jonathan is perfectly fine.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

You earned it, though, the doctor title. So tell me all about you. How did you get? I mean, I took some notes in my quiz. You know, but thank you for being on my podcast. So yeah, tell me all about you. You're a very interesting person.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Where would you like me to start?

SPEAKER_02 0:53

How did you get involved in this? I watched one of your other interviews and it said you got injured.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Okay, that is certainly true.

The Day His Back Gave Out

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

I have a history of different injuries. Okay. The most serious one, and the one I was probably speaking about, was in November uh 4th of 2019. The previous weekend, I'd been at a conference in San Diego, and I could feel my back was tightening up a little and something was off in my hip. And driving home from the airport the night before, I was like, wow, my back's stiff. I better go to the chiropractor tomorrow. And November 4th, I went to get out of bed. And the minute I put any weight on my right leg, it was like this lightning bolt of molten lava, like top to bottom, could take no weight, collapsed on the floor, had to drag myself on my elbows to get you know across the room. And the whole thing was highly mishandled and multiple steps along the way. It wasn't until much later that at first they thought it was femoral neuropathy in the right hip. But like, I think it was November 6th when I had a friend who could take me to the doctor, um, because I couldn't drive, obviously. Right. And he knew he had an x-ray there, but like it was going to take more than that. And so he had me go by ambulance to the ER so that they could do X-ray and MRI, and he put that in the notes. They never did either one. They had just had a big car accident earlier that night, and they were still dealing with it and they missed it. So they did a physical examination and sent me out the door, didn't even put what meds they'd given me in the ER on the you know, outtake paperwork.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

So we guessed that again, and so again, it wasn't until months later that I finally got an MRI and we finally got confirmation that it was the L3 channel on my right side that there was actual nerve damage in my spine. For five weeks, I couldn't even roll over on a side on my own. And so was just having people who were available come over for 10 to 15 minutes a day just to, you know, refill water bottle.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Yeah, the pain was just intense.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

I couldn't roll over, let alone and like empty portable urinals. And like that's not what you normally talk about, but I I literally couldn't move. Um, I was flat on my back for five weeks, and then eventually through at home PT and then eventually in office, was just getting back to walking unassisted when the pandemic hit.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Oh no. Wow. Okay. Did they do any surgery or anything on this disc?

SPEAKER_01 3:56

No. So what it ended up being was it was a bulging disc in that location, but it wasn't that it was just impeding the nerve. It was had actually damaged it, like it had frayed part of it.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

But because it didn't take it was late December by the time they did the MRI, and it wasn't until January when we actually got the results. And the same day I got the results, we also did the nerve conduction test.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Oh, that's fun.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Well, it wasn't fun, as you know, but it wasn't that bad because there was so much nerve damage that it, I mean, I could feel it, but it didn't hurt that much. Oh, because even two months later, there was still so much nerve damage that, like you were in that numbness almost. Well, again, the signal is only some of it's going through the nerve, right? Because it's there's not full transmission line. But by that point, since nerves, if they're not actually cut, they will repair eventually. And since it had already been repairing for two months, it didn't make sense at that point to go the route of a medical intervention.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

That said, if we had known that's what it was from the word go, I would have at the very minimum done an injection into that patient.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Because nerve pain is no joke. And anyone who's never experienced it, I do not wish it on them, but they don't understand.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

They don't, unless they feel it. You cannot describe it. You can say lightning bolt, fire, it just doesn't hit it the right way.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Exactly. And they don't understand that the pain meds for nerve pain, like gabapentin, it takes six to eight weeks to even start and it it does it, it mutes it, it doesn't make it go away.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

And then they had me on such a high dose of that to like be able to get by that like I was seeing, you know, you were a zombie half the time. Yeah. And so, like, even when I could walk a little, like it was a little bit dangerous sometimes since I was at home without anyone. Right. Um, yeah, so that's that major injury.

Slow Physical Recovery And Setbacks

SPEAKER_01 6:10

I have permanent damage.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

How did you recover from that? Because I know how bad that is at that moment.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Well, so I think there's two parts and pieces to the recovery.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

I think there's the physical part, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

And that to me is, you know, again, it was the first at-home PT, though that was misdirected since we thought it was something different at the time.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

And then eventually the in-office PT. And then at a certain level, recognizing, you know, I want to be able to return to things. And so, like, first it was just getting up and even with the walker walking around the house.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

And, or even before that, you know, just having a recliner that was pushed to the foot of my bed, just getting myself to sit upright, you know, for 15 minutes at a time. I mean, it was a gradual process. Then once I could walk around in the house with the walker, you know, either unassisted or just outside one house down and one house back.

SPEAKER_03 7:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

And slowly, you know, then with unassisted, walk five houses down, five houses back until it was, you know, a mile, two miles a day.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

So you had that drive at least. You didn't want to just lay in bed, you at least wanted to keep going.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Well, so yeah, and that's where it comes to another part of it. Because there's also, you know, in some ways, the more challenging part is the existential one.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Because I have been very involved probably 15 years now in social dancing of different natures.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Yeah, I saw that, yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

And so the first half of 2019, I'd spent in Brazil both studying academically, um, doing research, but also just dancing and developing my own skills. And then all of a sudden I get back and it's, I don't know if I'm ever going to walk again, let alone dance. And does that mean that all of the time and energy that I put into this before was for nothing? Was it pointless? More than that, am I the same Jonathan as I was before? If I can't do the things I did before, do I have the same value as a human being? And so that was a lot of the stuff I dealt with to just even, you know, figure out how to go forward.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

And once I had an answer of, you know, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to come of it. But one of the things we know from lots of research is that the regrets that are the absolute hardest to deal with in life are the what ifs. So to me, it was, I'm going to try and do what I can. I'm going to try and get through this. Hopefully, I can. And it's going to be really depressing, heartbreaking, challenging if I can't, but I'm not going to go what if and always question what could have been. I'm at least going to try. Yeah. And so that was what part of what motivated me to make these efforts. But there was really then even a second level to that. Because anyone who's ever been bedridden for a long period of time, how quickly muscles atrophy.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

I was shocked. And so both between the pain, I didn't have an appetite. And then the pain meds, it also suppresses appetite. So I've lost a lot of weight as well as then the muscle atrophy. Yeah. But then once I started walking again and moving around, my appetite came rushing back, but I wasn't moving that much. And so I gained a ton of weight.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

And one of the days when I was in my doctor's office, just as a follow-up to all of this, you know, doctors, you know, you could walk in with a bone sticking out your arm. They're still going to weigh you and take your temperature.

SPEAKER_04 10:09

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

But I saw the number on the scale, and I was like, this isn't okay. And it wasn't anyone else telling me. It was just, I'm making other changes to live the life I really want for myself. And this is going in the opposite direction of that.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

And so then just starting with adding more vegetables and then switching some of the complex and simple, well, taking out simple sugars, you know, not exclusively. I wasn't changes. Yeah. And switching some of the complex carbs even to just more pro lean protein and just walking more and more and more and getting to a point where I was walking by six, seven miles a day. Until I just was like, now I feel good again.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Wow. Yeah. Holy cow. Do you still have back pain?

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Not that pain, right? It's not the nerve. Again, I have a history of other back issues that started back right after I finished undergrad. So I mean they go far further back. My pelvis sometimes likes to rotate out of alignment like this, which is excruciating. I have permanent tendon damage in my right shoulder from a bad car accident in 2009.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Your body's been beat up.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Oh, yeah. And then some. And so again, things happen it from time to time. And it's, you know, pay attention. You know, don't overdo things. Be careful about like being careless, but also as much as I can without causing discomfort, maintain as much range of motion as I can, keep moving, don't just lie down and let things tighten up.

Body Scans For Pain Awareness

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Yeah, for sure. What is what do you you have more self-awareness about your body now? Is there a routine that you do to get ready for the day? Do you have to do that? Like stretch out your muscles, get into a mental awareness for your day. Is there like a procedure that not procedure, like regimen? A procedure before you start your day.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yeah. I'm very fortunate that on a day-to-day basis there isn't. Okay. Um, I'm at a point now where I really don't need to. That said, when I was still dealing with things, okay, you know, it was really paying attention. It was doing some type of body scan, you know, starting with the bottom of my feet. And if I was lying flat in bed, then it would start with my heels and the pressure of them into, you know, the mattress and whatever air current I could feel on the soles of my feet. And just then slowly tracing up the back of my leg and where was the pressure in the calf? And was the gap like, you know, under the knee and up the backs of my thighs, and under, you know, my butt and the lower back and up through the mid back and the upper back, and then my hand. And again, depending if my arms hands were down or flipped over, like just what part of the thing had contact, and just scanning all the way up the back of my neck, over my scalp, down through my face, through my you know, throat, through my chest, and into my you know abdomen until I was just in my center.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

But I mean, again, just starting at the extremities and taking all the way into the internal, and just, you know, once the awareness was there and I'd scanned everything, what if anything stood out to me?

SPEAKER_03 13:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

What was I sensing? Was there like a tightness in one particular place? Was there something that felt um being like it was pulled? Was there something where it felt like there were pins? Was it something where it felt like there was heat? And just recognizing it, just acknowledging it, just saying, okay, I'm noticing that, and just letting my attention be there for a little while would often let it release a little. Some practices that come from one of the things I'm trained in is body-oriented coaching. And so we borrow from a lot of methodologies. Hakomi is one. And so even being able to ask if it felt like it needed it, like, you know, different things about it, you know, first acknowledge, but then, you know, what if anything would you like me to know? What if anything is are you telling me? Um, what if anything, you know, is, you know, deserving my attention here? And just different types of methodologies to just sort of, okay, where's that coming from? Maybe it is a physical thing. Maybe I had a conversation the night before that was stressful, and I'm just holding something really tight, and that's where it is in my gut. And it's not a physical thing, but just getting really developing that awareness of what is actually going on. And even to just say, okay, I recognize there's something there right now. I need to go start my day, but I'll check in later. And just acknowledging that would often let it go in a way that doesn't happen. If it's just like, oh, that's tight. And then I try and force myself.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Okay. Okay. Wow. Well, I mean, it does sound like a good routine for sure. And that's what you know, I want to give my listeners is a routine to help them, you know, start their day instead of turning around and going back to bed, which a lot of people do when they're dealing with stuff like this.

Replacing Should With Could

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Yeah, I think one of the really important mental pieces for me, because a lot of the times, why do we do that when we just turn back over? It's because it's overwhelming. It's because there's so much. And why is it so overwhelming? There isn't one reason, but a lot of it is because we've internalized some sense of what we're supposed to be able to do. I should be able to keep going. This shouldn't be so hard.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

And as one of my coaching mentors pointed out, should is fighting with what is. So one of the things I really invite any of the people I'm working with to do is just keep track on a piece of paper, you know, column down the middle on one side about yourself, one side about anything external. Anytime I think or say, should I be able to do this? I shouldn't have such a hard time. I should eat better. I should do my exercises more. On the other side, you know, people should understand more, the aides should do a better job. And just recognize it, just keep track of it. But before you go to bed each night, cross out should and write could. I could have done this, I could have eaten better, they could have given me better support. Because now rather than assigning blame, it's did it happen or didn't it? And what do I want to do from there?

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Okay. It kind of holds you accountable and gives you the opportunity to change the next day.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

It gives you agency. It says, you know, okay, I could have done that. I didn't. Maybe I just really there were too many things going on and I couldn't, and that's okay. But I'm recognizing that something else is a possibility rather than beating myself up, I should have. If you really had the capacity to, you probably would have.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Right. But what about the people who get more sad because first they should have, then they could have, but they didn't.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Well, but that's the thing. There is no should really. And so once we let go of the should, because it's okay, I could have done a lot of things, right? But what are my actual resources? My physical resources, my energetic resources, my emotional resources, my time resources, my financial resources, they're not unlimited. And so all of society tells us we should be able to do everything. And the fact is I could do anything, but I cannot do everything. So if I let go of everything is a should, everything is a could, given the resources I actually have available, which could be in that day, the pain is more, my energy is less, I have very limited. Where do I choose to put that?

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Okay. Yeah, I get that. Wow. Is that part of your live, connect, and communicate regimen that you have? Or you live by those three words.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Well, yeah, but it's live, connect, and communicate authentically, right? Okay. And so it's all about what's actually true to me, which is different from all the things that everyone and everything around me tells me I should do. What is it that I'm actually choosing? It's about intentionality, right? I have X amount of energy today, you know, can make one phone call.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

That's all I have energy for. So is there something which is a practical thing, like I have to talk to the bank because it's a mortgage issue and I might not have a place to live if I don't? Might not be the call that's the most nourishing, but it really has consequences, and that's a choice.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Or is it, yes, that's a call that needs to happen, but it doesn't need to happen today. And rather than listening to everyone who tells me you have to take the financial responsibilities first, I'm like, no, I'm feeling really beat up right now, and I don't know how I'm going to keep going. I need to talk to someone who I know just them hearing me will allow me to keep going.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Well, then that's a much more important use of my time and the energy I have for one call.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Right. Yeah. That's a lot of thinking for people. You know, it's that whole process that almost the broken have to go through. So it's it's very interesting. What about manifesting the life that you want? I read a little part about that, and I feel like manifesting people immediately go, oh, I want more money. You know, that's like the number one manifest. And then you get people like us that are like, you know, we want calmness, we want peace, you know, we don't want material things. So what do you say to those people that you actually you have a being strategy strategy? What is that about?

The BEING Strategy For Change

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Sure. So this actually comes from when I was injured, right?

SPEAKER_03 21:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Um, I was already in my I was training as a coach then. I'd already been coaching, but didn't have like formal training.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Uh and I had just started that before the injury. But while I was on hiatus from that, I couldn't pursue it while I was like flat on my back.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

But when I was thinking about, you know, where does my value as a human being come from? And it's from being, not from doing, because I can't do any of the things I did before. I can't do all the things I want to. And so the inherent value of every human is as a human being, not a human doing. And so then I took that being as the acronym for the approach I want to use, if it's about really living your best, most phoenix meaningful, fulfilling life. So B is begin where you are.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

And I think that's so important because all too often when we know we want to change, we just start grabbing at anything. And if you think about like when you're, you know, doing GPS in your car or on your phone, it needs a signal to know where it is before it can navigate.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

True.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

You know, all of the maps that you see, whether it's in an airport or a shopping mall, it has a pin. You are here. Without it, the map is useless.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

And so the begin where you are is about really recognizing, okay, here might be the challenges I'm facing right now. But what are the skills, interests, aptitudes I've built in my entire life till now? What are the social strategies or supports that I do have out of relationships from the past? Maybe there aren't as many as I like, but there are some.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

And so actually taking stock of that. Here are the things where it's a challenge and I'm lacking some skills, it's a deficit. But where are the stress? And that's all part of beginning where you are. So you know what you have in your toolkit to go forward.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Right. Okay. I see that. E is strategy there. That was a lot for B.

unknown 23:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Thank you. So then E is explore where you want to go. And I think that's so important because again, all too often it's I want to get away from here, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Okay. But say someone wants to go on vacation.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Great. Take a vacation. But do you like mountaintops and forests? Do you like beaches and sunshine? Do you want, you know, cultural performances and museums? Do you want to just have quiet time with family? Do you, I mean, anything. And there isn't a right answer. It's what's the right answer for you? And that's where I think it's about authenticity. It's what actually feels good to me. So many times in you know professional contexts, people are looking for promotions. If that really is what you want, great, good on you. But oftentimes it's because it's what we're told we should want and we should be pursuing.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Ah, yes, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

And, you know, okay, so why do you want that? Well, it comes with the raise. Okay, great. Why do you want that? Well, it's more money. Yes, that's the definition of a raise. Why do you want that? You know, I want a bigger house. Okay, great. Why? Well, for my family. Okay, why? Well, my family's the most important thing to me. Great. You know, in what ways? And oftentimes it's well, I really love them. I want to be able to spend quality time with them. Great. What's going to give you more quality time? The big house, but you have double the responsibilities at work and you don't have time, or keeping the job level and maybe just getting a raise, but without more responsibilities, and you now have more time to spend on them because you're not busy chasing that promotion.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

So explore where is it you really want to go? Is E in B. So begin where you are, explore where you want to go.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

I is identify your options. What are the two ways between A and B? You know where you are, you know where you want to go. What are all of the different routes between the two of them?

SPEAKER_03 25:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

I just suggest people brainstorm that, right? Like just write down as many things as you can think of. The most efficient, the most scenic, you know, whatever takes you by, I don't know, the Guinness Book of World Records, largest frying pan in the world, you know, when else are you going to see it? Whatever it is. I don't care. But once you've brainstormed all of those, then think about like of all the major decisions in your life you've made in the past, what are the three to five that to this day you feel the best about? And what are the three to five that you wish maybe you had done differently? And then think through how did you make each decision? Because for some people, it's pro and con list. For some people, it's gut feeling. For some people, it's talking to you know close associates and family and who know you well and what do they think.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

And figure out what strategy did you use to make the choices that you like the best? And which strategies did you use to make the ones that maybe you would do differently?

SPEAKER_03 26:39

So now you've identified that.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

So that's part of identify your options. So we brainstormed what are all the possibilities, but now we're identifying how have I personally made the decisions that have served me best in the past.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Right. I never now apply that.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Yep. Now apply that to your brainstorm list. That's I for identifier options.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

What's now start?

SPEAKER_02 27:04

I was trying to guess. I'm like, what would N be?

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Now start because all too often we're so caught up in trying to get the plan just right and account for everything. And this is where perfectionism and this idea that there should be something that's the right idea creeps in. The point is, if you've really done where are you now to begin, you've really explored where you're going and why, and you've identified why you're going, there might very well be obstacles along the way. There might be detours, but you're not lost. So if I'm driving home from work, there's road construction. Okay. It may piss me off, it may be inconvenient, but I'm not lost because I know where I'm going from, where I'm going to, and why I'm going the way I am.

SPEAKER_03 27:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

I'm never going to get home if I never leave work. So now start. By the same token, there's other types of detours. So I'm on my way home and I think, you know what? It's half an hour out of my way to go run this errand. I'm tired. I don't feel like doing it. But if I don't do it right now, it's a total different trip that's going to take twice as long tomorrow. Given how much energy I have right now and what else is on my schedule, maybe I do this. I'm not lost. It's just a detour.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

So N now start.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Yeah. And G is go.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

G is get your best life. Uh-huh. Not in the sense of yourself together. Yeah. Not in the sense of you're done and it's finished, but you've come so far from when you weren't even really fully assessing where you were starting from. Yeah. That it's about, you could also say, in some way, G is almost like gratitude. It's just recognizing all of the awareness you have, all of the movement you've made, all of you know, skills, strategies you've built along the way, that you're in a different place now, and your life is closer to whatever is going to be the most authentically meaningful and fulfilling to you versus where you started. And you also now know the process and can repeat it at any point going forward.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Yeah, that's true. You can kind of bounce around your letters a little bit if you trip up. Yeah, that's that's interesting. Yeah, I didn't think of it that way. That's pretty neat. I like that. I like collecting all these little bits of pieces of therapy, healing. It's it could be part of a lot of healing journeys, and that's the whole point of what we do. We gotta learn all this stuff to share it with others.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

That is really neat. I did read something I wanted to question you about.

Regret, Future Casting, And Breakups

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Regretful thoughts. You said that you look back on situations, people do, we do, and you would like to change what you think about, you know, like you lay in bed at night and you think about the conversation you had with somebody and the regretful thoughts that you touched on, which I thought was more anxiety. But what do you mean by these regretful thoughts versus just normal anxiety?

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Sure. So I know for myself and you know, most of the people I talk to, sometimes it's you know, two hours later, sometimes two weeks, sometimes two months. Oh man, I wish I had said this instead. I wish I had done that instead. That's what I mean by a regret, right? And so that's not anxiety because it's not really about what's coming, but it's so easy to then beat ourselves up about I should have done something different in the past. Well, you did or you didn't. But if to me the being strategy is about sort of strategizing how I'm gonna live the life I really want, right? There's a tactical piece here of how do I avoid ending up wishing I had said or done something different.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

And to me, that's instead of focusing on the what, it's the how. And so what I mean by that is I know I'm gonna have a conversation with my partner. How do I want to interact with them? I know I'm gonna have a conversation with my boss. How do I want to interact with them? Not what do I want to say?

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

If I focus on the how and what is really how I want to show up to this person in this particular moment at this time, is it I want to show up with, you know, caring, compassion, understanding? Is it I want to show up and I want to really listen to listen? Is it I need to stick up for myself and not be walked on? You know, whatever it is, how do I want to show up? Not the what? And at times this can be, I mean, some of the times it's accessible enough.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

But life can be really heavy, yeah, whether it's you know, lots of competing obligations and stresses, whether it's just waves like a really emotional situation.

unknown 32:25

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

And so January of 2020, while I was still recovering from this spinal injury and sitting in the recliner at the foot of the bed, just so that I wasn't purely horizontal. Yeah, I at the time was involved with in what was up till that point the most meaningful romantic relationship of my life. And it was long distance and it caught me by surprise, but she broke up with me.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Amazing woman, have nothing bad to say about her, just with everything else I was dealing with. I didn't catch some signals, and she also was trying to be respectful of some work obligations I had. So, you know, was waiting.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Yeah. But I remember the conversation very clearly because even though it caught me by surprise, I think all of my thinking about and coming up with this being framework and focusing on how really prepared me to do something which I now have a name and a label for at the time I didn't.

SPEAKER_03 33:33

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

But I had tears streaming down my face. And she's like, you know, do you just want to call the conversation? Maybe we can check in in a week. And I'm like, give me a minute. And I'd really thought through looking back on this in the future, how am I going to have wanted to respond right here and now? I don't want to look back on this and say, I wish I had done something different. I wish I had said something different.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

And so I was able to say, you know, like, yes, it caught me by surprise. Yes, I'm really, you know, heartbroken that this didn't work out.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

And at the same time, I want to thank you for all of the like shared experiences and all of the you know support and growth. But most of all, I want to thank you for being you.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

That was pretty big.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

It turns out it was, but I can look back on that. I don't wish I had done anything differently.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Yeah, because you mean it if you took it any other way, if you looked at it and threw anger at it and just a different way, you would have looked back on it like, oh, I wish I didn't do that. I wish I didn't scream and called your names. So yeah, you took a minute.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Exactly. And so the label I now use for that is future casting. So if it's too overwhelming for me to really feel like I know what I want to do right here and now and how I want to respond, if I just go, okay, the five year from now, Jonathan, how is he gonna have wanted to look back on this? And what is he gonna have wanted me to have said and done right here and now?

SPEAKER_02 35:28

That's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

It can be, and it's not to say that we all have access to it all of the time.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

I don't. Yeah, just because I can do it some of the time doesn't mean I always do it.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

It's a journey.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Absolutely. And there's many times since that I haven't been able to pull myself in that spot. So it's not, you know, you're wrong or bad if you don't, but it's a tool to go rather than just react, if I really want to respond in the way that matters to me the most, and I can't access it right here and now, our values are our values, and maybe they'll evolve some, but underlying it, they don't that much if we real so I go, okay, the five year from now version, which isn't in this situation and is just looking back on it and has the distance from it, how are they gonna have wanted me to respond? The this version and listen to that version.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. It's just if people just take a pause, that's it, you know, that might change a lot of these horrible outcomes where you don't look back at night when you're laying in bed saying, I wish I would have handled that better. Yeah, I mean, because we've all done it for sure. Yeah, that's really yeah, just taking a pause, actually, and seeing how you're gonna react. Wow. You've definitely looked at life on such a different level than most people. Being a photographer and a dance instructor, it's almost like you get to see the real beauty of people and things through a lens and and through dance. I mean, I think dance is a story sometimes, and you really got the opportunity to see life in a in a different, loving way. That's pretty interesting.

Anthropology And Seeing New Angles

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Thank you. And I think those things certainly inform it. And at the same time, another part of it is my academic training, my doctorates in cultural anthropology.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

True.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

And so some of that is there is no right way, right? What in one cultural context or setting is the way you should do things is not in a different one. And none of them are wrong, they just make sense in different contexts. And so rather than treating anything as absolutely good, bad, right, wrong, it's how does this make sense? No one wakes up in the morning and goes, This makes no sense. I'm gonna go do it.

unknown 38:05

No.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Even when I yell at someone, but I later regret it, like in the moment, it made sense to me for some reason. And rather than beating myself up, I'm like, wait, why did that make sense? Okay, what else makes sense to me and maybe is more important to me long run? No one on the planet thinks fast food is the healthiest way to eat.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

But we eat it for other reasons because health isn't our only concern. Right. What might be easy and accessible, what might be affordable, what might be comforting, what might be nostalgic. And so if I can just recognize what what part of this is making sense to anyone in any situation, now I can say, okay, what else might be even more important?

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Okay. Can you touch on what cultural anthropology is? Is that what you just described?

SPEAKER_01 38:59

It's a large part of it. So anthropology is just the study of humanity, of people. Okay. Cultural anthropology is really looking at living populations.

SPEAKER_03 39:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

And what are culture is the learn shared patterns of ideas and behaviors.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

So just how do those learn shared patterns show up in both intended and unintended ways?

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Okay. That's all confusing and complicated.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Well, it took some time to get that degree. Yeah, I bet. But it's very related, say, for example, to the photography, because the same object, right? If you look from different angles, if you trake a picture with different camera settings, if you put a light source in different locations, it's the same object objectively, but it looks very different. It's a different photographic subject depending on all of these variables. And so that's part of how I try and look at my own life, at people around me, at circumstances. It's okay, from a certain perspective, it looks this way. What else is possible? What else is true? What are the other options?

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Wow. Now I get it. Now I understand it. Wow. Yeah, that is just so real. That is really interesting. You answered all my questions, though. I was like, wow, we're gonna be doing this for hours. No, that that is really that is really cool. So you give people basically you just give that pause and then you regroup your your minds, and then you can move forward. Yeah, that is just really, really helpful for a lot of people because I deal with, you know, chronic pain and illness people. And we need more tools, you know, definitely more tools to even get through one day, you know. So this is I love that being strategy. I can't wait to to share that.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yeah, thank you. It's really

Regulating The Nervous System With Senses

SPEAKER_01 41:08

good. And I think that, you know, especially with the people you're dealing with. My mother, when she was still alive, had uh fibromyalgia. So obviously dealing with it, a good friend of mine in Brazil does as well. So I talk to a lot of people who are, I'm very fortunate that even though I didn't know if I was ever going to recover, and so I had to deal with all of that, you know, existential challenge to identity. Yeah, fortunately, I've recovered. Fortunately for me, most days I it's not bothering me. Yeah, but I deal with you know people in my different circles who do. And when you're talking about that pause, I think it's so important because it's not just a mental one. No, it's also about just regulating the nervous system as much as possible. And so, what are different strategies for that? And so I think just tuning into the senses, probably not touch if you're feeling pain, right?

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

But whether it's sight, sound, smell, like, you know, what are ways you can do that? So if I just listen, not trying to hear anything, but just letting myself listen, what do I hear in my environment? If I'm looking and just orienting to my environment in the room and just let my eyes drift around until they land on something that they just want to check out for, I don't know, 30 seconds, 45 seconds, until they just feel like going somewhere else and just really let the senses, you know, it helps you be present and not in all of those, you know, whether it's it can be depression about like what's in the past and not possible or hasn't happened, can be anxiety about what's coming next. But we can only make changes right here and now. So anything that's sensorial is about being present, which lets you have a little more control of your life and it helps your nervous system. And the more that our nervous system is regulated, the better job we do as far as processing whatever pain there actually is.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Yeah, it's it's a lot of work, it's a lot of focus, and you just keep trying to teach people how to do it, you know, how to get through one day at a time. So have you heard of Feldenkrais?

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Feldenkrais, yep. Alexander technique, other things like that.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

That's my favorite. It really helps so much, and it's hard to get people to do new things like that. You know, it's like you find something that helps you and you want to just shout it from the rooftop so that it can help someone else. But I get a lot of resistance for these wacky type of alternative healing. Do you find that too? With because you have a list of things that you do. Do you find resistance or do you? Get people coming and searching for you to help them?

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Yeah, it's a great question. Certainly every once in a while you have someone who's searching for a specific thing, but most of the time people just want help, period.

SPEAKER_03 44:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

And so to me, it's that's part of why I have training a bunch of things, because what any one person is open to or is going to work for them is not what might work for someone else or what they're ready for right now.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

So a lot of the people I work with, we start at a much more sort of intellectual talk level of coaching.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

For some things, right? But as we do it, it's like, okay, I heard you say this, but at the same time, I see your body getting, you know, tensing up. And so I start to bring attention to that. And it starts to be, you know, okay, when we're talking about this, you know, you know, what are you thinking? Okay, but what are you feeling? But okay, what are you sensing? Because feeling, you know, upset. Okay, fine, I believe you, but what is the actual sensation in the body? For one person, tightness in the chest. For another person, tightness in the gut. For someone else, my fists and feet are clenching. And so as they start to get in touch with, you know, what's actually going on in the body, again, it's by invitation. It's are you open to exploring that?

SPEAKER_03 45:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Okay. And then helping guide them to gain more awareness of the signals. And so one of the things that I think not a lot of people are aware of is that the nerves that go from the brain down to the body have a thicker sheath of fat, the myelination around them, than the nerves that go from the body back to the brain. So the efferent and the afferent nerve channels. So signals travel fractionally faster from the brain than back up to the brain. And so we need that pause. We need to take the time to actually feel what the information is coming from the body to the brain. And as much as we're staying only in our heads and what we should be doing and thinking and trying to force ourselves, we don't actually even recognize and listen to what our bodies are trying to tell us.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. You have so much good information. Like I have, you know, I have studied the spine so much since I broke my back. And yeah, I didn't know about the signals. That's really interesting. Once you go through that, it's like a cleanse, you know, and then it's like, all right, we got it. We can face the day. We can put our pain in another way. You know, it's it's a lot of work, you know, it's a constant healing journey, but you learn new tools along the way from people like you. And it's just really amazing that you can share all this knowledge for people like us, you know. Well, you deal with a little bit, you've been through so much pain. So you understand people who deal with pain every day. So yeah, I love all these new tools. I can't wait to share them. Is there thank you? Is there anything else you would like to share before we wrap up?

WAIT, Better Pauses, And Exhale First

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Sure. I just would like to piggyback on something you had commented on because you've commented on the pause and also but like, you know, you could take a breath. And so I want to just riff on those briefly.

SPEAKER_03 47:42

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

And so for pause, one of the things that I always go back to is wait. And it's the acronym, why am I talking? So if I'm in a conversation with someone else, you know, am I just jumping in? And if I have a reason to interject right here and now, I do, but I have a reason, why am I talking? But it's the same thing for myself. If I'm just trying to sense or feel something rather than be like, oh, I should do that, I, you know, should expand, you know, my rib cage, I should lengthen my leg, just let it be first. What is it telling you? What are you actually sensing? Then do something. So just noticing first. Oftentimes, whether it's in different types of breath work or yoga, when you tell someone to bring their attention to their breath, they automatically slow down. Can you actually pay attention first, then be deliberate?

SPEAKER_02 48:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

And then as far as taking a deep breath, at least in Western context, all too often when we say that, we start by inhaling. Okay. Exactly. And here's the problem: if you're very tense already, if I'm already contracted, how deep can I breathe?

SPEAKER_02 49:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

So whenever I'm working with someone, I say exhale as deeply as you can, as long as you can first. Now take a breath. Because if we're constricted, no matter how deeply we breathe, there's only so much oxygen we can take in. If I'm tense and I just really exhale.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

Yeah, there's the release versus keep inhaling.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Now I inhale. Now I get so much more oxygen into my blood that goes out to all of the cells in my body. This is far better for the nervous system.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

How come no one said that before?

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Well, people have, I learned it from them, but um I've never heard this.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Wow, that's that's really great. That's very interesting. That I've never heard this before, honestly. I've talked to so many people and yoga and everything else. I've never heard that. That's great, and it's so true. But yeah, as soon as you said that, I was inhaling.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Try it, just exhale first, and then there's lots of other things that breath work circles know. Like if you exhale longer than the inhale, it's actually better for social relating just because of some of the things it triggers. If you inhale and hold it, it's like almost the effect of a hug, but on your vagus, you know, nerve complex. And so again, good for regulating the nervous system. But there's lots of different types of breath work.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

There is it's meaning.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

Yeah, I don't prescribe any one. I would just prescribe that people try them out and see what actually feels best to them.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

Sure, sure. You've got to be open to these types of things too. So I get a I get some people that are like, eh, that ain't that's not for me.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

And you know, I don't know what's best for everyone. I know tools and strategies that have worked for me. Yes, I try and share them, and hopefully that supports people in figuring out what mix is best for them.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

Absolutely. Absolutely. There was some you said two things you wanted to touch on.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

It was it was both the pause and the wait, and then the take a deeper. Yeah, they're related, but yeah, the pause.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

I I forgot the pause already. Wow, yeah. Well, thank you so much for all these great tips. I'm looking at all my all my stuff that I wrote, and it it's just amazing. It's very informative, and I really appreciate you coming on my podcast, sharing all of this.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Absolutely my pleasure, Michelle.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Thank you so much.

How To Connect With Jonathan

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Great. And if anyone wants to follow up with me, um both my website, stepsalongtheway.global.

SPEAKER_03 51:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

And if anyone's watching video, they'll see the steps away along the way over my shoulder right here. But again, it's because how do we each become the people we are? It's the steps we've taken to get here, and how do we live our best lives? It's being deliberate and intentional about the steps we take next. And if anyone just wants a half an hour to just figure out their next step, no obligation, no commitment, totally complimentary. Stepstochat.com get on my calendar.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

Awesome. Thank you so much. I will have a page right after and before the podcast on how people can reach you and read, you know, and talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 52:17

Fantastic. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

All right, thank you. Have a great what rest of your week.