Paws, Reflect & Heal with Dr. Randy

Lifestages Part 2: Focusing on Behavior and Wellness In Your Pet's Adolescent Years with Drew Webster, CBDC

• Dr. Randy Pet Vet • Episode 17

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"Don't pull your hair out. There's hope!"

In this conversation, Dr. Randy Aronson, Mark Drucker, and Drew Webster discuss the complexities of dog behavior during adolescence, the implications of spaying and neutering, and the importance of proactive health management. There is a need for understanding canine development, managing expectations during training, and the significance of building a strong relationship between dogs and their owners. They also touch on the evolving perspectives on veterinary care and responsible pet ownership. Other important topics in this conversation are the importance of vaccine efficacy, titer testing, baseline blood work, and the connection between gut health and behavior, all while emphasizing the need for a holistic approach to pet health that includes nutrition and regular veterinary check-ups. 

10-Second Takeaways

Socialization during puppyhood sets the stage for adolescent behavior.
Training should focus on building desirable behaviors, not just stopping bad ones.
Spaying and neutering should be considered carefully based on the dog's development.
Titer testing is essential to determine vaccine efficacy.
Baseline blood work helps identify health trends in pets.

Chapters
00:00 Navigating Adolescence in Dogs
12:02 Understanding Spaying and Neutering
23:57 Proactive Health Management for Dogs
27:57 Understanding Vaccine Efficacy and Titer Testing
28:51 The Importance of Baseline Blood Work
30:11 Gut Health and Behavioral Connections
31:48 Exploring Gene Expression and Nutrition
37:52 Nutrition Through the Life Stages
44:08 The Importance of Regular Check-Ups

Connect with Drew Webster
Instagram: @doctrdrewlittle   / doctrdrewlittle  | @behaviorofdogs -

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Products and Resources I Recommend
Microbiome Testing
Animal Biome - Gut Microbiome Health Test

Nutrition
K9 Natural

Feline Natural

Just for Dogs
Farmers Dog

Other...

SPEAKER_00:

Remember that the Google information you're getting, Dr. Google has an N of one. That means my dog did this, I did this, the dog got better. Okay? N of one. People like Drew and myself have N of hundreds. I see hundreds of animals that I do this for, or I don't do that for, and I know how that goes. And 43 years of experience, I mean Drew's not quite there with me yet as far as that age goes, but he'll get there. And you know that it's very important uh to trust. Welcome everybody to Pause Reflected Heel. I'm Dr. Randy. This is part two of our life stages discussion with my good friend Mark Drucker from The Love Dog. And we also have with us uh the the innumerable Mr. Drew Webster, who is a uh nationally known dog trainer and behavioral consultant. Uh he's uh also a uh he has he's also an adjunct professor in Denver. Uh we've talked about that. His site that you can find him on is www.behaviorofdogs.com. Welcome guys, and uh I'm excited to talk about adolescence and adulthood.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, Drew, welcome back for part two. And uh I think we're gonna get it right into this quickly, and we're gonna talk about teenagers today. Yikes, right?

SPEAKER_01:

We've we've I thought you were gonna cue up the who like Teenage Wasteland in the background coming, Mark, for my intro music.

SPEAKER_02:

I think we're gonna go with the assumption that from part one our listeners have mastered puppyhood. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

If there is such a thing of mastering it. Yeah. They have survived puppyhood, we'll say.

SPEAKER_02:

They've survived puppyhood, yeah. And uh and now we're dealing with adolescents, we're dealing with teenagers, so this is a continuation. So talk to us about what training and socialization begins to look like then, or you know, and and during that life stage, managing those expectations, and then after we kind of go with that, Dr. Rendy will come to you and we'll pick up on the whole, you know, exam thing and medical protocol thing that starts to happen during adolescence. So, Drew, here we are. We've got teenagers. What do we do?

SPEAKER_01:

Don't pull your hair out. There's hope, right? You know, it it we joke a lot about it and and we see this in alma million species where there's this natural almost backsliding when it comes to the learning and the way that we approach teaching. And I think that's really important. We talked a lot about in the puppy episode about meeting your dog's needs and setting them up for success. And really, when it comes to adolescence, we uh have to first temper our expectations. I think one of the biggest mistakes every dog owner makes is they have this assumption they've just put in seven, eight months of work in training, and the dog now quote unquote knows these behaviors, and then all of a sudden this adolescence phase kicks in and it's like the dog doesn't know anything that you've taught them, or they can't perform it when they're in the presence of certain stimulus, whether they're too excited or they're nervous or they're scared. And that's when a lot of people get frustrated. And sadly, it's the age we tend to see the most dogs relinquished to shelters, rehomed, and I think a lot of people switch their methodologies from, oh, I'm gonna use a lot of reinforcement with my puppy to you know, more yelling, shouting, trying to stop behavior, these punitive measures. And I see a lot of these juvenile dogs who they got a pass on a lot of behaviors when they were cute, but now that their bodies are reaching sexual maturity and physical maturity, it doesn't feel as cute anymore when the dog jumps up and knocks over your friend who visits or steals food from the counter or barks nonstop at the mailman when they arrive. It it tends to be very frustrating for people and dogs. So I I really think of this stage of development more where I come in as a relationship counselor than a dog trainer, and I'm there to mend, you know, and repair this relationship between human and dog.

SPEAKER_02:

What what are these people typically seeing? Can you be a little specific about some of the changes?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, a lot it sounds funny to say, Mark, but well for example, one well let me just ask you one quick question.

SPEAKER_02:

So jumping, I know, is a big issue, and a lot of people don't like when other when dogs jump on them. Is that something that's being taught during puppyhood? Is it something that is being taught now? I just want to get you know, get a sense of that.

SPEAKER_01:

Dr. Randy said the word socialization, and and we talked a lot about that in our our puppy episode, and I think something that we have to be careful of is how we're socializing. So when we take young puppies out into the world, we're teaching them this is what you should expect. This is how you're going to be as a dog. And so if all of that dog's prior learning experience, especially around other dogs, is centered around things like taking the leash off, rough wrestle play. Um you know, these puppy playtimes are important for development, but what happens is it tends to become a little bit of a crutch. And what I see is a lot of adolescent dogs then getting to do those behaviors in doggy daycares and dog parks, and it becomes this way of physically exerting the dog for the sake of having better looking behaviors in the short term. But we tend to see that we're socializing and training these puppies to become very hyper-aroused dogs. And this is the stage, Mark, where I really want people raising adolescent dogs to shift to what do I want my adult dog to look like? And in truth, you really want them to ignore a lot of the stimuli they encounter. If you're out for a walk with your dog, you want them to walk calmly past other dogs, not assume they're going to greet, not bark and pull the leash or jump up on a person excited because they've seen them and they want to be closer to their face and their mouth and their interactions. So we are what we repeatedly do, and dogs are very similar. When we habitualize behaviors by letting them be practiced over the time as a puppy, like excited greetings, you know, you'll hear a lot of people say it's okay when the dog jumps on them as a puppy, I'm a dog lover, or I'm a dog person. But really what you're doing is you're giving feedback to that learner, that dog, that puppy, this is how we greet, this is an appropriate greeting versus if you can set them up for success with a little management and some training about here's how I want you to greet people with all four feet on the floor, then you're coming at that paradigm shift you and I've talked about in the past is you're not trying to stop behavior such as barking, jumping, digging, pulling. You're trying to build the desirable behaviors that you want, like loosely walking, greeting people with, you know, a sit to greet or all four feet on the floor, um, standing quietly at the window and watching stimulus outside when the mailman comes and approaches. And that's done through reinforcement, that's done through feedback, which we can kind of get into the specifics of, but it's really about saying, okay, I'm not gonna assume learning is linear. You're not just gonna keep learning the way you've been learning as a puppy. You're gonna have this backsliding while your brain and your body are going through this huge developmental change.

SPEAKER_02:

I might just say something or add something here that I also want you just for a minute to speak to um some of the stuff that we've talked about in the past with Mark Beckhoff, for example, where you know, let your dog be a dog. And you know, dogs are dogs, they're not humans. So I understand what you're saying, but there are other behaviors that I think humans are disgusted by that are actually perfectly normal and acceptable, like sniffing around areas that you also want to balance it out so that your dog can be a dog. You don't want to over train it or or stop it from doing things that are very natural. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Sort of the irony of being a dog trainer is you think, oh, I'm calling the dog trainer. He's gonna come and teach me how to get my dog to stop doing this behavior, right? He's gonna he's gonna stop the obsessive barking, he's gonna stop the jumping. And the dog trainer thinks, Great, I'm gonna go over to the house and I'm gonna teach this person about dogs, how they learn, and we're gonna build behaviors like quiet, calm behaviors, like relaxation protocols, like cooperative care so they can be successful at the vet. And so this kind of duality in our expectations is well, I need to stop these behaviors to be a good caretaker, to be a good guardian. But really, in truth, you're you're trying to set the dog up so that they can be a dog. And most of the behaviors people call me for aren't good or bad behaviors, they're just dog behaviors. Right. So digging, barking, even biting, these are normal species, typical behaviors that the dog has in their repertoire, be it from genetic and instinctual material or past learning. When we talked in the puppy episode about mouthing and biting, the whole system of feedback that we have to give those young dogs is around how can you use your mouth on other dogs, on humans, is it not at all, is it softly? Um, some breeds like your Mr. Hank, Mark, have these very soft mouths that are intended to be used a lot and other dogs like a terrier might have a very, you know, hard bite that's meant to um serve a function. And remembering that and having that sort of ethological framework of, oh, dogs are a species that have a natural history and a biology. How do we work with that rather than always coming up against that? How do we use that to our advantage? So that's training smarter, not harder. And I'll talk a little bit more about that. But I do that usually through play and enrichment activities.

SPEAKER_02:

So, Dr. Randy, is there anything you want to say about what Drew is saying and how this connects to when they bring their pets in to see you, or do you want to add something, either of you, about cats?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, let's let let's just go to um the age range that we're discussing because people may not understand what this is about. And the thing that they have to know is that it varies for the size of the dog. So, for example, an adolescent phase for chihuahua or dochin, which is a small dog, could be six to twelve months of age. A medium breed like a border collie or a cocker, uh, that could be six to eighteen months. And for some of the large and giant breeds, shepherds, Danes, this could be six to twenty founds. So Drew's job gets harder, and my job uh doesn't really change much, but you have to know that because some people think, oh, you know, my doxie is, you know, or my dane is is 13 months, and he should be an adult at this point, and not so much. I mean, it doesn't always work that way. And you know, physical development goes along with those stages where we're seeing continual growth, we're seeing the teeth completion. Most of this is done by about six or seven months. We're seeing the sexual maturity, which gets into a whole different discussion that Drew and I can have, and and and you, Mark, about this. Uh so you just have to know that um many of these things that Drew's alluding to, and many of the things that uh I talk to my clients about can be very age-related because it's it's not always just a standardized, oh, six to twelve months my dog's done, now it's an adult. That that's not the case.

SPEAKER_01:

This is such a great point, Dr. Randy, because you know, people come to their dog trainer and say, Oh man, we're at nine months, ten months, my dog is really starting to mark, or he's humping, you know, when people come over, he's humping the other animals in the house, what should we do? And, you know, to use an old terminology, they'll say, We're gonna get him fixed, right? Right. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And what you said there was really important, sexual maturity, and these physical developments often happen like other mammalian species where they may appear adult like in their bodies and their ability to reproduce, but that doesn't mean cognitively, emotionally that they're adults, they're still going through these huge changes. And I'm curious, and I always tell people this is a conversation we need to have with our veterinarians. If if there's kind of a sweet spot, we're we're getting more and more information. Mark and I in the past interviewed Dr. Kathy Murphy, who has a great website called Barking Brains, and she's a neurologist, and she's focused on kind of the impacts on the brain and understanding things like coupling, which is very technical stuff, but it has to do with how dogs learn, how they consolidate to memory, and how that develops into long-term memories that serve as dog behaviors for adults. And so I'm always wondering, Dr. Randy, about the consequences of say spaying or neutering too early for the sake of, you know, preventing a little bit of normal adolescent behavior and what impacts that might have on the dog, both, you know, if their growth plates haven't closed from a skeletal issue later on down the line, or from a cognitive and development stage for learning and training education, you know, just those normal hormonal things that they need. Like what do dogs lose by spaying or neutering maybe a little bit too early?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, there's definitely I I I have very strong feelings about this. And unfortunately, I have a number of pet parents that have younger, let's say, male dogs that all of a sudden start marking or are uh exhibiting their humping behaviors. And, you know, the first thing that they want to do is neuter the dog because that will stop it, which uh as you know and and I know, it doesn't always work that way. Um, and you're not fixing the dog, as you said, Drew, because you're absolutely right. So the the problem, you know, what I try to advocate for is especially what we've learned from the rehab world, physical therapy world, is that if you can hold off on spaying and neutering until at least 14 to 16 months, now we have bone plate closure. Uh, now we will not see some of the associated problems with this. The um the knee problems, you know, cruciate ligament issues, the um hip-to-hip problems like you know, advanced hip dysplasia, uh, lumbar spinal problems, but we also will eliminate in the female dog um incontinence. Um you know, hormonal incontinence is huge in the female dog, and it is much, it's much more intensified if you new if you spay them early. Uh, you know, it's not that you're not gonna get it at 14 past 14 to 16 months. And you know, I'm very fortunate because I have a lot of clients, being integrative clients, that aren't gonna spare neuter them at all. And that's another whole conversation. Uh, and I actually, you know, one of the things that I say, and and you know, I'm gonna get some pushback from this from people, is um, if they weren't supposed to be there, don't take them out. I mean, you know, it's like, come on, there's a reason why males have testicles, and there's a reason why females have ovaries, and they need a lot of that hormonal stuff, even going forward. Um, so uh uh I always tell people look, if your female dog gets a pyometriate seven, okay, we spare. You know, if your male dog gets uh benign prostatic hypertrophy, okay, we neuter them. But the reality is people will start quoting cancer rates, you know, in breast cancer and in testicular cancer or prostate cancer, and they're really not high. They're they're really exceptionally low compared to the other types of cancers that we're seeing in dogs across the spectrum.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I know a lot of that comes from, you know, somebody who's spent some time doing behavior programs and sheltering. We we have these devastating overpopulation problems when people, you know, didn't heed the the wisdom of Sir Bob Barker to spay a neuter because it led to all these sadly unwanted dogs. And and now we're sort of moving to a new era and and we have people who are are really into this idea of responsible pet guardianship, of ownership, whatever terminology you want to use, but it really does give you some more opportunities to have those conversations with their vet. And you know, what you're saying is heartwarming to me because in the past, over, you know, the course of my career, it was like, nope, as soon as they're ten months of age, boom bum boom. And and now it's a more nuanced conversation. And you know, you mentioned some of those behaviors, and I would never ask a client to say, you know, heed to my ideology and keep your dog intact till two or four years old, if you're struggling to live with this behavior. Or let's say you live in a multi-dog household and you're starting to see, you know, some real problems with that dog being intact. So I know it's a little bit more nuanced, and really what we're saying, I think, is that there are natural changes that happen in the dog's body that uh attribute to kind of well-being both from a physical growth and a cognitive and learning stage. And and I think that's what we're both kind of pushing for is if if you can wait, then maybe it's a good idea to push that back a little bit and not just um you know assume that Spain and Neuterine is gonna quote fix those problems, that you might be able to do that with some careful management and some training techniques that really set them up for success.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, something that comes to mind is the tension between the shelter community, the rescue community, who you cannot discuss this with them. No, absolutely not. Every dog has to be neutered and we understand why they do it at eight eight eight weeks. But if you're getting your dog from a breeder and you're a a responsible dog parent, pet parent, um there has to be space for that conversation. It's it's just a it's a different environment that they're coming from. And there are these health reasons that I can tell you that when I had my first golden retriever back in 1991, the doctor was like, no, we're not gonna neuter him until he's 18 months old because we want him to get his full dose of hormones for his bones and his personality. And uh so this is not a new thing. What's new is the tension because it's so inten it's so intense.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and rightly so. I mean it it you know, Drew knows and I know that the these shelters have a terrible job ahead of them. I mean, the overpopulation is Is just enormous. And there's no question that I wouldn't argue with what the shelters are doing in their world. But we're talking about a much different world. But I will tell you that I've even had like very well-known golden retriever breeders who will tell their clients they have to spay or neuter their dog before eight months or ten months, or they give them the state. And if they would just look at what's been going on out there with the research, the research shows that without that bone plate development done, you're going to have problems with hips and knees and backs and sho and elbows and other issues that will come up that we could talk about. But you know, it's just you just have to balance what's going on. And as we all know, our world evolves all the time. When I talk about integrated veterinary medicine, I tell people when I first started, you know, the the information may have turned over every seven years. Now it's like seven days. I mean, it's so crazy that we're and we're getting all of this. Let's use what we now know, which is evidence-based and research-based information.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and part of my role teaching at the University of Denver is just that is making sure that we are using evidence-based methodology and and the beauty of that isn't to say, oh, well, we are, you know, superior because we're using, you know, this really ethical framework, it's that we are open to being wrong. We are willing to continue to look at what's coming forth and going, huh, I didn't know that back then. And that's one of the dangers of you know, recording and writing stuff down is it's taken as a snapshot of when that information came out. And so, you know, if I look back at things I was saying fifteen, twenty years ago, I'm embarrassed, but that shows growth, not ignorance, you know, and in my opinion, you if you are on your fourth dog and you're, you know, generations of raising dogs in, you should still approach that puppy raising or that adolescent with that beginner's mindset of well, what do I need to know and how have things changed? Because, you know, when you're on your first golden retriever versus your fourth, there might be new information, new tools, new techniques that you've never even encountered. So that's the beauty of really having access to this information. And then one of the problems with great access to information is there's also not great information out there in popular culture. And I think kind of going back to that age causing a lot of frustration, Mark. You talked about the tension, you know, uh with knowing the shelter world, but between people and their dogs, you know, it's really hard when people started interacting with behaviors. We talked about normal dog behaviors, aggression is a normal behavior response for dogs when they're in distress. So, you know, Dr. Randy might see a dog in the office who is showing signs that it doesn't want it to be handled, or it doesn't want, you know, you going near its head or looking in its eyes, and maybe you need to look in its eyes. And so when we're talking about setting dogs up for suc success, we're really trying to think about what is the life of this dog gonna look like, and how do I manipulate my environment? How do I proactively train skills, techniques, and tools for that dog and me to utilize to be successful? And how do I remember that if I'm reacting to behavior, I'm behind it. And so this whole concept of correcting the problem behavior, we need this paradigm shift of how do I build the desirable behavior? And that sounds really passive to some people, but a lot of times it's just managing, oh, I don't want my dog barking every time Amazon comes to my door. So I'm gonna draw those curtains when I'm not home, and then on the weekends I'm gonna stand there at the window with him and reinforce him for standing there quietly and calmly, those kinds of things. Until we have so much learning history and reinforcement around that that the dog tends to produce the desirable behavior on a more frequent basis.

SPEAKER_02:

Dr. Randy, let's go into we talked about spaying and neutering. Let's quickly just go over what happens in terms of the protocol for testing and exams and getting baselines when when a dog gets a little bit older. And and and and and if you can also talk a little bit about prevention, supplementation, that sort of thing, what we want to start to do.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Well, I I first of all I want to really um admonish Drew for the idea of reactive versus proactive because I take the f same exact stance in medicine. Uh, you know, I don't want to be that guy that's putting out fires every day with new medicines or new therapies and creating two more problems. I want to get these animals, these dogs and cats, set up for a very successful health span and lifespan. And so that's what pause reflecting heal is about. We're bringing you, the listeners, truth. Uh I one thing I will I will tell you before I just elucidate on the medical stuff is Google is a great place for information. Remember that the Google information you're getting, Dr. Google has an N of one. That means my dog did this, I did this, the dog got better. Okay? N of one. People like Drew and myself have N of hundreds. I see hundreds of animals that I do this for or I don't do that for, and I know how that goes. And 43 years of experience, I mean, Drew's not quite there with me yet as far as that age goes, but he'll get there. And you know, it's very important uh to trust. There was just a little backstory. There was a new uh England Journal of Medicine article, and I love this. This was years ago, and I should I gotta find the article, but it was about how people are now listening to Dr. Google more than they're listening to their MDs. And I fault the MD community a little bit because they're not taking the time that Drew and I take with our pet parents. They're just not. And so people aren't getting that information, but you also have to be very aware that the gray on my beard I earned. Okay? I've done 43 years in the trenches of being an integrated veterinarian. So I know a few things. Do I know everything? Absolutely not. I'm learning every day. But um, so I just wanted to mention that. And talking about the answer to your question, um, what we normally do is we normally will see the puppy and kitten at a year of age. That that's kind of our marker coming out of puppyhood or kittenhood to their first examination again. And at a year of age, I like to make sure that we've already we've already checked the fecals when they were young, uh, we've already figured out their heartworm status, let's say, or their flea and tick status. Uh we've hopefully talked about embark or um or um uh some of these genetic testing wisdom uh because that will help us elucidate what are the upcoming issues that we may have. Does this dog have a propensity towards congestive heart failure? Does this dog have a propensity towards osteoarthritis? And I know it's not like 100%, but it really makes it easier for me to lurk at what I have to do both food and supplement-wise to help that animal. So we're seeing that one-year exam. Uh at that point, we at Paw's Veterinary Center do titers. We've talked about this a little bit. But vaccine titers are critical because I do not want to vaccinate that one-year-old puppy for anything that I can do a titer on to make sure that he or she is protected. Okay? It makes no sense. And I'll say it again, it makes no sense to vaccinate a dog with a distemper parvo vaccine if they have a protective titer.

SPEAKER_02:

So they've so they've already been vaccine just for our listeners, they've already been vaccinated. Then go through the puppy series. Right. Now they're now there, it's a year later, let's say the protocol is do it again, and instead of just automatically doing it again, you're actually testing their blood to see if the original vaccine is still effective, if the titer from the vaccine is there, protecting protecting the dog or the cat.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely, the series of vaccines that they received. Right. Because, you know, look, we use the best vaccine you could possibly get on the market uh at our clinic at Pause Veterinary Center. That doesn't mean the dog got protected. We don't know. And so, you know, kind of a protocol for us is that one-year titer test really tells us, you know, is the rabies protective? Is the December far vote protective? There isn't a titer at this point for leptosporosis and some of these other things that are lifestyle vaccines, we call them. Uh but yes, by all means, uh I push for the titer tests. I also push for baseline blood work. Uh, you know, people say, like, my dog's one year old, why would he need uh a CBC in a chemistry? Because astute veterinarians look for trends. Okay? I'm not wanting to have your dog, Mark Hank, at you know, three years of age have a creatinine of 1.6 when if I would have known like his creatinine was one at one year of age, one at two years of age, why is it jumping to 1.6? That's not abnormal, but it's at rise, and it may indicate that something is brewing. And so why not be proactive about that and say, okay, uh we can do this uh the supplement or we can do this uh specific food that we want to use and maybe head off what could be coming. Okay? So I love baseline blood work. Um I can't get everybody to do that, um, but I it it it you know it is an issue. The other thing that I think is coming that I think we will see is baseline biome work. I think we will, we talked about biome earlier, I think, in the uh first series for puppies and kittens. I think if we can see what that baseline biome for that dog or cat, we may be helping Drew on the behavioral issues. Absolutely. Because there's a gut-brain connection. And if that biome is really off, if if there's a dysbiosis is what we call it, and leaky gut syndrome, that dog and cat's not going to thrive. And we know that the vagus nerve comes off of the bowel, the small intestine, the stomach, and it affects their brain. And so, you know, um, you know, everybody wants to, you know, has a behavior dog and they want to use a shock collar and they want to put them on, you know, um, you know, you know, uh really strong medications when it could be as simple as let's just fix their gut and they're gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_01:

I I can't tell you how much I I just love what you're saying because you know I worked very closely with several veterinary practices over the last however many years, and one of those practices I was working hand in hand with veterinarians, especially behavior veterinarians, and uh a lot of those dogs I wouldn't touch them, I wouldn't do behavior programs until they had a clean bill of health because I like a good veterinarian, look for those trends, and if I see a history of GI, if I see a history of sound sensitivity, if I see all these things on there, I'm not assuming this is a quote unquote stubborn dog or aggressive dog. I'm assuming this dog doesn't feel good. And if we can get that dog feeling good, the behavior improves so much faster than if I go in there and make it possibly worse by either working with a dog who's in pain or discomfort or a dog with, you know, a gut problem and I'm shoving treats in his mouth, like it's only gonna get worse. So I I love that. Amen.

SPEAKER_02:

I got a question for you. In the human human medical realm, longevity realm, there's a lot of there's a lot of talk over the past number of years about gene expression. Yep. I'm sure you're familiar with that. And uh which uh which between the embark and the wisdom testing, you know, you're getting into the genetics. So I'm wondering if gene expression is something that you guys focus on. And now very popular um and for good reason, I think, is all this conversation about mitochondria. Yep. So are are these two things coming into the into the animal world, the the pet realm?

SPEAKER_00:

I think slowly. Uh I I will tell you that um, of course, because I look at this stuff, um, what we're kind of talking about is epigenetics. You know, we're all all of us, dogs, cats, and the four of us, are set up with a gene, you know, a genetic gene situation, uh, DNA. And um epigenetics is how does that affect that? I mean, how does our lifestyle affect what we were given genetically? Um, you know, one of the greatest things I heard recently, being a 71-year-old, is you know, you are responsible for getting to 80. And at 80, your genes are going to take over, and if you live to 100, it's because your genetic, you know, uh predisposition is there, you know. So it's not, and the other thing that's really interesting is a woman by the name of Jean Dodd's, a very dear friend of mine. Uh, I call her the godmother of veterinary medicine because she's just, you know, she just is so important to what we've done in veterinary. Uh, talks about nutrigenomics, very fancy word, but it means like, what is the food doing to these pets? Um, and and how are we affecting these guys? And and I will tell you from Chinese medicine, like when I tell people your dog has a really bad skin allergy, it's had terrible ear infections, we want to avoid three hot meats chicken, lamb, and venison. They look at me like I'm coming from a rocket ship from Mars. You know, and I understand that because it's a total foreign conception. You know, but if you look at Cheryl Schwartz's book, Four Paws in Five Directions, she talks about the heat of dog foods. And they do affect our animals. And, you know, here we go. I'm living in Arizona, it's 110 degrees in the summer. The last thing I want to do is add more internal heat to my you know, Labrador retriever who is you know itching up a storm. So, you know, these things are very important, but new concepts too. I think a lot of our listeners, I'm sure, and we'll talk about more of this in future episodes, but uh, I just want people to be aware of that.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think that's really great because so much of what we consider to be quote unquote normal is our culture, right? And I think we often forget that dogs, the majority of the dogs on this planet are not pets. The majority of the dogs on this planet are not pets. They're opportunist scavengers and they're roaming around and they're eating all kinds of things and they're figuring out what works for them, what doesn't work for them. And yeah, they're they're exposed to a lot of environmental elements, but they have a degree of autonomy to express normal species typical behaviors and and they're living and reproducing and and thriving from a biological sense. Now, when they come into our home, they adapt to our pet culture. And so i you know, we're we're in sort of a food renaissance for people where people are waking up to, oh, we probably shouldn't be eating the majority of processed food in our diet. Yet we we will just buy a bag of dry kibble because that's quote unquote dog food and say that's what he eats, where that is ultra processed dried, extruded food. And that's not to villainize, I've got a big bag of dry kibble right over there. But, you know, I use that in conjunction with other foods and other things. So it's kind of like when we really start thinking and getting curious about what we do culturally with dogs, we start asking those questions. Oh, I don't just need to put a shot collar on my dog to stop him from barking. I need to figure out why is he barking? Oh, I've got all this genetic material. But this is a dog who is designed to control the movement of other species of animals, right? Oh, I brought a herding dog into my apartment. Why on earth is he going stir crazy? And so now I need to work with those natural expressions. So when you're talking about this from a medical standpoint, I'm thinking behaviorally and going, Yeah, that's exactly what we're trying to teach people, is these aren't bad behaviors. A lot of these have genetic material at the root of them, and then you add environment and motivation, and all of a sudden these dogs are performing all these behaviors and people are so at the end of their ropes, and that's why I think we see so many dogs of this age relinquished, rehomed, um, and sadly euthanized, because people get in over their heads and they're just stuck with the cultural knowledge of, you know, correct the behavior, stop the behavior rather than going, How do we meet this animal's needs? Maybe we need to increase mental and physical um well-being and and and that might start with biome, it might start with nutrition, it might start with pain assessments. And and that's kind of a whole voodoo thing that people look at me like, What do you mean? You want me to go talk to my vet? He's fine, he's a teenage dog. You you know as well as I know dogs are experiencing pain and discomfort every day that just missed because their language isn't understood. And it's subtle.

SPEAKER_02:

Well So we're talking a little bit about nutrition, we're kind of weaving in and out of it. And I know Dr. Randy, it's we're now we're out of puppyhood, we're into adolescence and going into adulthood. Speak for just a few minutes on how nutrition changes as the dog evolves.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that's a great question. I um you know, we talked earlier in our first series uh about um kind of the food hierarchy and what we'd like to see in our dogs. And I'm very excited coming up. We have Kay Stewart who's gonna join us about feeding real food. And and um this is really my goal is to keep on pushing people. You know, thank God the number one niche in dog and cat food is whole foods, raw foods, slightly cooked foods, real foods. And um, we talked about how processed dog food and cat food is. And so again, sticking to uh the dictum that if we can get real food into our dogs and cats, um, that's great. Um we can scale it down to let's say we want to do some freeze-dried and some better dry food, you know, one of the complex carb dry foods, uh, you know, with garbanzos or lentil beans, and there are different varieties out there that I talk about. Uh but you know, keeping in that mode uh and making sure that they're still taking their omega-3 and six fatty acids, making sure that if they're a bigger dog, maybe we look at some joint protection with a product called JOPE, Ultra Collagen 2 product. Um if I need to boost our immune system, I use a uh a mushroom product called MRM. Um if I need to uh address skin issues, uh, I may do something uh different in the way of a probiotic uh that I really like, let's say Espilardi, instead of just a regular canned probiotic. So those are the things that we would look at, you know, and and the one-year check can kind of tell us how is this dog or cat, you know, doing? And and are there issues? I mean, I look at the coat and they're feeding, let's say, what they call a good diet, yet it's dull. Uh, yet there's small white flakes on the skin, uh, yet they're itching. I know that that's the window to what's going on in their body. And so we can change that just with just like you mentioned, Mark, food and supplements for sure.

SPEAKER_02:

And so That's the reason right there to do the biome testing. Absolutely. Absolutely. If you see flaky skin, for example, dry, dull coat, you're going to see something show up in the biome. Yep. And then you can adjust that through diet and supplementation if necessary.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And if there's more of an issue, let's say we have severe like potodermatitis, which is infection of the feet or licking of the feet, we have severe ear infections. I'll also do some type of food and environmental testing. Because we really want to know: is there something that's really setting this dog off? Because this is the genetics you were discussing, Mark. You know, this is stuff that pretty much they were born with besides the biome and you know dysbiosis. And so something like nutriascan testing or VDI allergy, dermatitis testing, I will do that because uh those two pieces which are not in the regular veterin repertoire, uh, I will tell people they're gonna hear about this and they're not gonna know about this stuff. But when you do these two pieces, you put them together, it's gonna give me much better information than looking at the dog's liver enzymes or thyroid enzymes. Not that I don't want that, but you know, it just gives me way more to go on.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's really kind of a beautiful thing because if you you're talking about when the dog is one year old, right? So now imagine the dog is five years old, six years old. Right. If you haven't attacked these problems from the time that they're one, then they are gonna go through all these years. And to some extent, I don't want to get too dramatic here, but to some extent, they're gonna suffer. Oh, it's it's not that's not that's not that's not overstating it. They are and they're gonna suffer, and you as the pet parent are gonna watch them suffer and you're gonna pay for it with pet visits, with vet visits that are expensive and never-ending, and the problem is just never, as you like to say, you're they're just putting out fires with one antibiotic or one cream or another, and the problem just keeps returning. So um this one year checkpoint seems really, really critical to me, and I love that we're talking about it.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. It's great. Yeah, it's such a great way to kind of assess what you've done up until this point. Like, if you've had the dog since puppyhood and you're now at a year, it's such a great time to sit with a professional and and say, like, how are we doing? You know, and we do the same as parents with human children. We go in, we check the weight, we're like, Where are we? On the curve, are we on the curve? How how's cognition going? How are we teaching? We need to be doing the same with dogs because you know what we're saying in the in in episode one, the puppy episode, and this episode, if it sounds like a lot of work, I always kind of use this garden metaphor for people. Like it's you're planting these seeds, you're giving the environment everything it needs for those little seeds to grow and thrive. And what happens is there's a lot of work up front. You know, you're whether it's training, nutrition, health, you gotta put everything into it in that first year. But what happens over time is habituation. You get routines at work, you're you're starting to become smarter about what what was successful and what wasn't, hopefully. And if you haven't, maybe you're looking for help, you're looking for, you know, a veterinarian or a trainer or somebody to steer your ship in the right direction. And then what happens is as you get older with that dog, all of a sudden they are able to just kind of start cruising and and you find your routines, you go for those walks, and it's more maintenance at that point. You don't have to be as proactive. So if you really front load it and you're proactive up front, then later in life it just feels easy. And when you see these, you know, these people that live alongside dogs in harmony, they did all the work up front and now they're reaping the benefits.

SPEAKER_00:

And the same goes for cats. I mean, I I just want to make sure we do have cat um people, and the hardest thing is it's hard to get our cat people to come back at a year of age uh because you know, cats don't show illnesses and they're very much more independent a lot of times than some of our dogs are. And so people think, well, you know, he's doing great. I don't need to have him checked up. But I can't tell you the number of times I've seen a cat at a year of age with incipient kidney problems. Um or you know, they were born with uh uh a liver shunt and and they and the owners didn't know it, and we picked it up on lab work or on genetic testing.

SPEAKER_02:

So well for our listeners, let's um let's end the adult, the the teenage, the adolescent conversation here. We're gonna come back with a part three of this life stage series and cover uh and cover adulthood and senior. And I know in the senior episode, senior conversation, there are just so many specific things. I'm actually taking care of an 18-year-old dog right now, um, so I can tell you there are a lot there's a lot going on. And uh and I think we can wrap up this conversation now.

SPEAKER_00:

Randy, anything else you want to add just to you know I want to thank Drew and Mark for being here with me because this information is priceless. And if you listen to this Pause, Reflect and Heal podcast, pass it on to your friends who are pet parents, whether it be dogs or cats, because we talked about so many things today. We talked about all the physical changes that we see in our adolescents. Drew talked about the behavioral changes, you know, the the increased rebellions and the increased energy and fear periods and all this other stuff that he has to deal with. Uh, we talked about hormonal influences and how that affects, and we talked about training and socialization needs, which Drew does so well. Um I only wish that we could clone him, and I'd love to have him here in Tucson because I need him. Um but you know, but these are all important things. So please, um, you know, if you if you've listened to this, subscribe to the podcast, um, look at our website, uh drrandypetvet.com. Um we're gonna be doing uh some really new things like a QA session coming live on Instagram. Uh we've got a lot of things, but having people who are world famous like Drew and having someone like Mark who is the quintessential pet parent with Hank barking in the background. I love it.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh and I'm I'm a world famous pet parent.

SPEAKER_00:

You are a world famous pet parent. But but thank you guys for for doing this because uh this is uh I I wish everybody could watch this.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm thrilled that you had me back, and I really appreciate the time. And just kind of bring one more thing home that you said, Dr. Randy. You said, you know, when you see these dogs with flakes in their scare and their hair looks dull, it's sort of the window into what's going on, and I I couldn't agree more. You know, and in my world I always tell people behavior is what animals do, not who they are. But a lot of time it's the only way we have information to what their internal experience is. And so while it might be frustrating this this this can be the support group for adolescent dog parents out there, but you know, while it might be frustrating, remember this is a period of time of development that's normal and natural and they're going to express a lot of these behaviors. So let's let's get smart about it. And and you said you wish you could clone me and I could be there and with the power of the internet I can. And if your listeners want to go to behavior of dogs.com, I'm gonna have a ton of free um webinars coming out this year. If you want to throw your email up there, I'll send you a bunch of information. I've got a sub stack where I write all my all my thoughts about dog behavior and things like that, which is Drew Webster's K9 to 5. And uh uh on socials at Dr. Drew Little D-O-T D-O-C-T-R uh and then Drew Little D-R-E-W-L-I-T-T-L-E. Um so if people want to check it out and get more info, I'm happy to share those resources for free. I I just want this information out there. So thank you both for having me, and I look forward to the next chat.