Paws, Reflect & Heal with Dr. Randy

Lifestages Part 3: Caring for Your Adult and Senior Pets with Drew Webster, CBDC

• Dr. Randy Pet Vet • Episode 19

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Summary
Back for our 3rd episode in the Lifestages series with Drew Webster, CBDC, and Mark Drucker, we discuss the various life stages of dogs, focusing on adulthood and seniorhood. We explore the behavioral changes that occur during these stages, the importance of proactive care, and the significance of understanding a dog's genetic makeup. Our conversation also delves into dental care for adult dogs and the concept of cooperative care in veterinary practices, emphasizing the need for pet owners to engage their dogs in their own care routines. We highlight the complexities of caring for dogs, particularly as they transition into their senior years, and we also discuss the importance of cooperative care, proactive training, and understanding behavioral changes that may indicate pain or discomfort. 

Main Takeaways
- Understanding a dog's genetic makeup can enhance training.
- Regular veterinary check-ups are crucial during adulthood.
- Creating purpose for adult dogs enhances their well-being.
- Behavior changes in pets can indicate underlying health problems.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Life Stages of Dogs
02:52 Understanding Adulthood in Dogs
14:36 Transitioning to Seniorhood
18:34 Dental Care for Adult Dogs
24:34 Cooperative Care and Veterinary Practices
27:19 Cooperative Care and Proactive Training
31:57 Navigating Senior Dog Care
36:54 Understanding Pain and Behavior Changes
40:52 Physical Decline and Nutrition in Seniors
45:21 The Importance of Early Detection and Cancer Awareness

Connect with Drew Webster
Instagram: @doctrdrewlittle / doctrdrewlittle | @behaviorofdogs - / behaviorofdog

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Send your questions to AskMe@drrandypetvet.com so Dr. Randy can answer them in future episodes!

If you'd like to schedule a telemedicine appointment with me, please send an email to info@pawstucson.com. Make sure to note your telephone number and a brief description of the issue you're having. Someone from my office will respond to your email to schedule an appointment.

Connect with me on my website, social media pages, and all podcast platforms!

Products and Resources I Recommend
Microbiome Testing
Animal Biome - Gut Microbiome Health Test

Nutrition
K9 Natural

Feline Natural

Just for Dogs
Farmers Dog

Other...

SPEAKER_02:

I I don't like a brush. Um, and and gr you may want to talk about this for a second, but it seems to me like coming at a dog or a cat with a brush is very intimidating. Um and most of the time when they start to do we talked about doing this through puppy and kitten kin kittenhood early on, that most of the time when you do that, you'll turn the animal off, and that procedure will become a negative experience that I now have to turn to my friend Drew and say, Hey, help me on this animal because we gotta make this okay. Um you can use brushes, and you know, there are little finger brushes, there are regular toothbrushes, but I'm really I love using your finger, and I love using the gauze. One, because you can monitor the pressure, and two, the gauze is slightly abrasive. Um, and three, using the CET paste, let's say, or the baking soda will take this off. Welcome everybody to this edition of Pause Reflect and Heal. I'm here with my good friend and co-host, Mr. Mark Drucker. And with us, we also have our great friend Drew Webster, who, as you guys probably know, because you've of course listened to the first two sessions of this, uh, is a certified dog behavior behavioral consultant, certified professional dog trainer. He's been training dogs since 2009. He's an adjunct professor at the University of Denver, where he teaches graduate school of social work. His passion is helping people who love their dogs and grow with them. Uh, you can find Drew at behavior for behaviorofdogs.com. Drew, welcome to the show, buddy.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. Thank you. Great to be back with you both.

SPEAKER_02:

Mark, uh, I know you're hailing to us from California. Um I am. Uh fortunately, um, Denmark did not buy them yet, so they're still an independent state.

SPEAKER_01:

I am in a very glamorous uh roadside motel here in Stockton, California. But I did leave uh Portland, Oregon yesterday, and I headed through down the five and through a very gorgeous uh Mount Shasta region. If any of you have been there, I recommend it. It's absolutely beautiful. And I arrived in sunny Stockton last night, and I'll be heading to LA. So I'm just really glad um to have you back, Drew. You are at this point BFF, right, of the podcast. And uh we thank you for it and we love you for it. And let's just get right into this. We've discussed in our first part of this series part one of Life Stages Puppyhood. In our second part, part two of Life Stages, we discussed adulthood, and we found ourselves getting so into it and taking such a deep dive that we had to save part three uh for now and do a part three, actually. And today we're going to focus on adults and seniors. And I'm particularly excited about seniors since I've just come from taking care of an 18-year-old senior, and I can tell you that it was a lot of what? Senior dog in Portland, Oregon, and it was I can tell you that it was a lot of work, and uh one of the more fascinating parts of that work was that I had Hank with me, my five-year-old white lab, everybody knows at this point, and it was amazing to watch him watch me care for this dog. I mean, he was so attuned to what was going on, and I was really proud of Hank. So, to get us started, Dr. Randy, we'll start with you on this question. I love this question. Why should our listeners stick around for this episode? What are you going to teach them today and why is it so important?

SPEAKER_02:

Great question. Well, you know, we focus on integrative veterinary medicine at um Pause Veterinary Center here in Tucson. My focus for many, many years has been that. And integrative medicine for our adult and senior dogs brings all of these options that we can look at to continue to be proactive, but also to help with ongoing issues that come up, because we will talk about issues that will come up for our, especially our senior pets, and there are so many options. And the thing that blows me away, guys, is every day when I'm seeing patients and clients here at my practice, people come in and they have no idea that they can feed something than a prescription diet or a very strong pain medicine. And that's kind of those are the kind of things we're gonna talk about. So our listeners should continue listening, watch this podcast, uh, follow us because this is where you will learn more than you can glean on Google or many other places that I know of.

SPEAKER_01:

And you're gonna take a deep dive into the senior thing, aren't you, today?

SPEAKER_02:

We are, we are.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm really happy about that. And Drew, um, we've gotten through puppyhood, we've gone through the terrible twos, and we're gonna get through adulthood and seniors today. What are you gonna teach us?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you know, I think this is the most exciting age to talk about adulthood, and I think it's the least talked about. And so why I think everybody should stick around is because I'm gonna teach you how to have your adult make you look like an awesome pep guardian, and and we're gonna do that through some really, really, really simping simple training concepts that everybody can apply to their dogs, to their cats, once we have that paradigm shift and stop thinking about stopping behavior and correcting behavior and really building behavioral diversity through proactive approach, and I'll kind of break that down and make it really accessible for our listeners today, because I'm really excited about it, so I'm gonna get you excited about it.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, and that's what I wanted to hear. So let's do what we did in part one and part two. We'll begin with Drew, and in this case, we're gonna start with adulthood. And all I want to say about adulthood as far as I've experienced it, is it's probably it's been the easiest life stage for me. It's when the dog is hopefully, or the cat, but the dog is hopefully trained and healthy, and so they're kind of maintenance-free. Not exactly, right, Dr. Randy, but not exactly, but uh they're going through many years of just having a great time. So st start there and uh take us through what happens behaviorally and what to look out for in the adult years, Drew.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I love, love, love what you just you you just teed it up perfect, Mark. You said the words we survived puppyhood and adult and juvenile, and you said kind of maintenance and cruising, and I think this is where we can sort of get lulled to sleep, right? We've just done all this work to get through that puppy stuff. Our dog is now potty trained, they're not chewing up every single thing in our homes. Then we've gone through the juvenile stuff, and it felt like we had this big emotional animal, and their brains are now coming back online. So once you get to peak physical and mental maturity, and that starts to come together, it's the opportunistic time for you to say, how do I move from just like being together, like just hanging out and watching television together to creating purpose for my animal. And and I really want to dive into that a little bit today and kind of shift everybody towards what does adulthood mean for our dogs? This is where you get this huge advantage because all of a sudden you get this thinking animal who's trying to work with you and look to you, and you've got all these behaviors that you've rehearsed for months and sometimes years at this point. So you've got your toolbox, you sit, sure dance, you comes, you loosely walk, you come here, and if you don't, it's a great time to teach it because you're not combating with long-term fear and print stages like you might be doing with a puppy, or you know, these big fear responses, or these flighty behaviors, or these curious juvenile behaviors where they want to see what's over the horizon, right? So you have this bonded animal who wants to work with you, and you turn that brain on Mark, all of a sudden they really start checking in and paying attention. Especially if you can find a natural outlet for their specific interest or genetic makeup.

SPEAKER_01:

Drew, it's a great time for me to tell this little story because Hank is almost going on six, right? I adopted him a year and a half ago. He's incredible. I mean, he came like a storybook dog, right? Couldn't ask for better. A few little quirks, we worked them out. I can just tell you that I've noticed he has no interest in water, and he's a Labrador retriever. And uh I just spent four months on the coast up on the east end of Long Island with him this past fall. Every single day walking on the beach for miles, bay beaches, ocean beaches. No interest in going in the water. We drive across the country to Portland. I'm walking him around this park in Portland called Laurel Hearst. There's a beautiful duck pond, it's an Olmstead park, so there's always a water feature there. He's off leash because he's so great. I shouldn't say that out loud, but he's off leash. He runs around and I lose sight of him for less than a minute, and everybody starts cracking up. I walk around. Hank is in the water, he dove in and chased the ducks. And I'm just standing there going, Oh my god. It was hysterical. I drove him up to Bainbridge Island. I'm walking him every morning, and there are some beautiful ponds in this park that I took him to, right across from where I was staying. He did the same thing. All of a sudden, he's acting like a Labrador retriever. He's chasing birds, he's jumping into ponds, and this is brand new behavior, and he's just about to turn six.

SPEAKER_00:

Does that make any sense? Oh, yeah. And that's when you text your friend Drew Webster, and I go into my Webster's dictionary and I teach you the word releasing stimuli, right? So, dogs have genetic makeup. And I think one of the biggest problems is we don't honor that. We don't think about that a lot. So even though you were walking on a salt watered beach filled with, you know, waves and all this stuff in the East Coast, birds, you you put that all in this category of water, right? Maybe that is not equal to him as, say, a still flat water duck pond. But I think the birds are probably the releasing stimuli there. And his little field gun dog brain went, Ooh, I should chase that. And before you know it, he's in there having the time of his life, and then all of that material, those webbed paws he's got, just start working together, and he's like, This is what I was born to do. Right? And I love it because, you know, we a very technical term we call is um modal action pattern. A lot of people talk about things like prey drive, and really these are just those modal action patterns, those things that were genetically bred into dogs for generations that we were supposed to make them specialists. I'll give you another example. I got a phone call from a woman, and she was just irate, Mark. She was screaming, she was talking a hundred miles an hour about her dog, and she's been out of breath, she's been chasing the dog for over an hour. She's obviously just disgusted about what's going on. I can't get the story out of her because she's so emotional about it. And finally, when I get her to calm down, she starts telling me that her dog's been playing keep away in the backyard forever and ever. And, you know, she figured out the dog had found there was a like a deer mouse or a rat or something living in the wood pile, and the dog to did what it did to the poor rat and was running around with the head of the rat in its mouth. Sorry, not the most pleasant story. Anyway, she's screaming at the dog. The dog's looking at this woman, going, Oh my god, she's lost her mind. She's chasing me around the yard. Finally, by the time she gets the thing away from the dog and she calls me. I'm going through my questions. How old is the dog? Do we have any training history? And I forgot to ask my top three questions, which is usually how old is the dog? What's the sex of the dog and the breed? So we get to the end of the phone call, and I'm like, and I'm sorry I forgot to ask earlier what what's the breed package we're working with here on this dog? This is a rat terrier. And I had the same reaction. I was like, Are you kidding me? The dog just did what it was genetically hardwired to do, why this dog exists in Europe to, you know, eradicate the plague, and it just did it in your backyard to perfection, and you're mad at it and you're screaming at it. And so that doesn't mean, you know, we just have to accept that Hank's gonna jump in every duck pond he ever sees, or that this little dog is gonna eviscerate every little small animal it comes across, but it means we have genetic material, we have to honor that. And can we use that to give our dogs purpose and give them meaning in their life rather than that always being a behavior we're working against or trying to stop?

SPEAKER_01:

So just to end this section, Drew, um would you say that uh the adult years are the years of behavioral maturity? Does that sort of make sense to you?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think when a dog hits that sort of three to seven years old, depending on breed, that's the sweet spot.

SPEAKER_01:

And so what are the cognitive challenges just quickly uh during the adult years?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and that's what I'm saying. I think there's less during this time period than everything they've experienced to this point.

SPEAKER_01:

So if you have a just settled, they're settled in in a sense. Exactly. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

It's like when you know, to to compare it, use our anthropomorphic lens to humans, it's like having a conversation with a you know 25 to 35 year old and going, Oh, you're like a person now, like I can talk to you where you're not caught up and you should hear some of the phrases and things I have to learn with these kids. Oh, I can't keep up, Mark. But and for me, it's like, oh, you're having a conversation with an adult animal, and you know, they're more mature. It's like Hank wants to sit and have a nice scotch with you, Mark, instead of you having to take him to the arcade at the mall for once in your life.

SPEAKER_01:

That's what he's doing right now. Just sitting sitting right over here. So, Dot, thanks, Drew. That was that was great. Doc Dr. Randy, um, what's going on, you know, for for you and your and the pets that you see your patients in the adult years, and how is it a little different? What's the trajectory? How and how are they transitioning and what does that look like?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you know, it's it's um that there's there's some varied things going on at that time for our pets. You know, some of our uh adult pets um are you know doing well. We we've gotten our pet parents to follow our advice on genetic testing so we know what some of the potential issues coming up are. Uh we have their we got them to follow our feeding uh ideas, our supplement routines. And so generally on our adult examinations for both the dog and cat, we're looking at you know a yearly examination, uh reviewing vaccination titers. We've talked about titers before. We're trying to minimize the vaccines. Most of our cats and dogs have protective titers against the diseases we're most worried about. We're looking at uh some lab work, uh basically what we call an adult panel lab work where we're comparing notes from earlier lab work to make sure, as we talked about on the last edition, not so much that there's an abnormality, but that there's a change. Uh and we see a trend. If we see a trend in a liver enzyme, let's say, or a kidney enzyme, there are things that we can do proactively about that. Uh we're talking about um just maintenance type things to keep the animal healthy, and then some of our adult animals will move into seniorhood earlier because they are so big. You know, we talk about some of these dogs at at six and seven are seniors, and so it's a hard, a little bit hard, you know, to talking about, as Drew talked about, you want to know what the breed is, you want to know what their kind of potential is, but really keeping in mind, and so a great physical examination, uh you know, identifying any dental issues, because those can come up if our pet parents aren't following our advice on, let's say, brushing or chewing hard type things or using prodenta, let's say, for their teeth or teeth in the water, you know, these things can come up, and we want to identify these early so that we can take care of them, hopefully to avoid a procedure.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So, two things, generally speaking, although I realize it's reed specific and other factors as well, but when we're talking adult, can we can we agree it's about age three to about age seven? Yes. And then and then we kind of move into the breed and all that's going on there. And Dr. Randy, before we, you know, end this section with you, a lot of people want to know, including myself, thank you, want to know about dental and what to do with these dogs' teeth as they start to get brown. And here's one of the reasons I'm asking is well, A, because you can see the changes, and um, but it's also very expensive to put the dog under anesthesia and go through that treatment, which can be six, seven hundred dollars. And now I know that there are non-anesthesia treatments available. Um I actually Drew discovered that in Boulder when I lived there, that there are places in Denver that do this. So what can because if you if you don't take care, and I'm guilty of not doing it, you know, it's on my mind literally every day. What can people do that isn't gonna cost a fortune, but that'll keep their teeth and gums in good shape? I think it's worth talking about for a minute or two. Good.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, I'm more than happy to do that. Um one thing that I will mention in our newsletter coming out, the question and answer section is gonna be exactly this. And I will elucidate the things that I'm gonna mention right now there too. So for our listeners, uh, if you get on our give us your website, your what's your email address, we'll make sure you get a copy of this newsletter.

SPEAKER_01:

Dr. Randy, let me let me just interrupt you for one second since you mentioned the the newsletter. If you go to drandypetvet.com, right up there, when you open up to the homepage, you'll see a newsletter sign-up form. We've made it really easy, and uh I thought I ought to just throw that in right there. Go ahead. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02:

So the first thing I want to mention is the non aesthetic procedures that you mentioned, because I really need to caution owners and my friend Mark about these kinds of procedures. Um what people don't understand is they are labeled as gentle dentistry. And they're anything but. What they basically are is holding your dog down using a metal teeth scraper to scrape the brown tartar and calculus that you had mentioned, Mark, off the dog's teeth. Um, which, you know, sounds a little brutal right there. That's not the way it's spelled out to our people when they get it. What they don't understand is this causes micro pitting of the enamel. And so what happens is uh when you get that pitting, bacteria and saliva and food sticks more to that. And I've seen some of the worst periodontal disease two and three months after these gentle dentistries. So be very careful about that. So I I wanted to make sure I bring that up. Um I also want to tell our listeners, I want you to avoid the dental procedures. Um 6,700 is cheap, Mark. I mean, we're talking a thousand, two thousand dollars, depending on what's involved with extractions.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm a New Yorker, so things are gonna be back in New York.

SPEAKER_02:

Especially in California. But anyway, so what can we done? Let's let's answer that question succinctly.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, we teach our our clients that brushing is number one. So I teach my clients use a piece of white gauze around your finger, wet it, use some baking soda or uh flavored paste like the CET paste, and make it a pleasurable experience. You know, um I'm into totally bribing the animal with whatever their favorite treat is, as as you know, their their treat of choice, as Drew will mention, uh peanut butter, whatever it takes to keep them occupied, so that you can get the gum tooth line on both the upper, the maxilla and the lower mandibular teeth. You don't need to go inside their mouth to do this.

SPEAKER_01:

So y you didn't mention or you mentioned gauze wrapped around your finger. You didn't say toothbrush.

SPEAKER_02:

I I don't like a brush, um, and and Drew may want to talk about this for a second, but it seems to me like coming at a dog or a cat with a brush is very intimidating. Um, and most of the time when they start to do it, we talked about doing this through puppy and kitten kittenhood early on, that most of the time when you do that, you'll turn the animal off, and that procedure will become a negative experience. Um, that I now have to turn to my friend Drew and say, Hey, help me on this animal because we gotta make this okay. Um, you can use brushes, and you know, there are little finger brushes, there are regular toothbrushes, but I'm really uh I love using your finger, and I love using the gauze. One, because you can monitor the pressure, and two, the gauze is slightly abrasive. Um, and three, using the CET paste, let's say, or the baking soda will take this off. It'll feel like a massage in a way. Exactly. Oh, I how brilliant. Okay, thank you for that. Two, um, I love the product teeth, T-E-E-F. It's a probiotic you put in their water and it changes the bacteria flora in your dog or cat's mouth, and basically will really help decrease some of the bacteria that's built up. You know, this dental disease is a process where the dog eats, gets food on their teeth, the saliva ducts are over top of the maxilla, they leak down, they hit fat, and it turns to that brown color you're talking about, and eventually, almost like a rock, this calculus that is so hard that has to be taken off. Three, I always teach my clients, use something hard. Um, and when I say hard, I mean deer antler, a hard nylobone, a frozen marrow bone. And of course, I mentioned this before. People always say, Well, isn't my dog gonna break a tooth? The amount of broken teeth that I see versus the amount of dentistries that we need to perform is minuscule. Um so I tell you that that's a great way to keep your dog's mouth healthy, and for people that aren't gonna brush, that actually will work for many, many dogs. So you like nyilobones? I like nylobones, I like the hard nylobone. It sounds crazy, it's a synthetic plastic, it's still not integrative in my world, but it works. And they get very small, they don't get very, you know, they don't get big pieces of this, uh, it doesn't choke them. Uh it can keep a dog busy for hours. Um I like them chewing on a contoy with their food in it, and and I stuff it with almond butter or peanut butter, and it's a great, you know, soother for them. Uh it's not as hard as the bones, but it will help. So those are the things that I would look at as far as dental prevent pre prevention and avoiding the gentle dentistries, please don't do those, and also avoiding the dental procedures if if we can.

SPEAKER_01:

And just to wrap this up, because we've talked so much about biome and gut health in the past, it's something that you love talking about. In this stage, you're you're monitoring the uh the biome and the gut health of the dog as well to look for changes. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely, absolutely. If we if we've done a biome study early on, which we typically like to do so we can get a baseline, if there are any issues, if there's any skin issues, if there are any uh GI issues, even if we're dealing with cancer or some infectious disease, I will get an animal biome on that that uh that fecal material, that DNA test, so I know that I can balance that. And again, this helps the mouth also, believe it or not, it's a bit goes a big way. One other thing I forgot to mention, and that is a product called one slash TDC, Tom Dick Cat. Um the reason why I mentioned TDC is if your dog uh has uh or gut or cat has gum inflammation and it's really red and inflamed, you can actually pinprick this. It's an omega fatty acid and spread it on the gum line, and it really makes a huge difference in settling that down.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. I'm gonna put that and a few other things you've mentioned into the show notes for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, it's such an interesting topic because we're talking about caring for our animals, and I think this is one of the best things you can do with adulthood in training. If you go to any environment where people keep animals, say a zoo or a farm or anything like this, you have this uh, you know, what used to be referred to as husbandry, but basically now we think of it as cooperative care, where all the veterinary things, all the the well care for the animal that is done with those animals. I mean, you go into a zoo and you see these uh huge predators handing their paws over, you know, to have their nails filed or, you know, bringing their shoulder up to uh the bars to have uh a vaccine done. And and these are mega serious animals. Yet you go into these veterinary practices and a lot of what people come up with is to restrain the animal, like Dr. Randy was saying, with these dental streets where they're holding them down. This is the perfect time to work with your animal and say, what kinds of things might we need to be dealing with over the life of this dog? So if Hank's ears are getting wet in that duck pond, God, is he gonna have ear infections? Maybe I should teach him how to tolerate checking those ears and you know, some mock flush. I can't tell you how many animals I've think I've improved their lives just by teaching them to participate in veterinary care by either standing on a mat or setting one of my favorites is to put a uh towel on my lap and just a little handful of kibble and either a clicker or a marker word, and when the dog puts its head down on that towel, I click and say yes, and I teach the dog to do this little chin rest on my lap, and from there I can check ears, I can do eye drops, I can look at those gums and check the state of those teeth, rather than like Dr. Randy said, you know, chasing them down, pulling those lips up, going in there with a toothbrush, all these things that are rather invasive.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I can tell you that with my dog, um, he's okay with me brushing his left side, and I let him sniff the toothbrush first and the toothpaste, but I cannot go near his right side.

SPEAKER_00:

So think about this, Mark. Any procedure that feels like it's happening to your animal rather than with your animal. And so this is a perfect age. You've got this brain on that we've been talking about, where you can change your training and say, we're doing pretty good on recall, we're doing pretty good on loose leash walking. Let's now shift toward what you might think of as cooperative care, and then you know, we're we're gonna shift and talk about seniors here in a bit. So this is what I like to talk about is prehab versus rehab. And can you start strengthening that dog? Can you start training behaviors that you might need later on? So for my client that has the 120-pound Newfoundland, I want to be teaching that dog to walk up ramps when he's seven years old, not when he can barely stand under his own weight at age 10 if he gets to be that old, right?

SPEAKER_02:

And I so, you know, I want to ask Drew a quick question about Hank. Um, so my experience with that, what you just mentioned, Mark, about his right side is possibly a past trauma uh to that side that you don't know about, uh possibly something going on on that side. Uh fortunately you're gonna be in Tucson in a day or two, and your favorite veterinarian can actually look at that side. But I was just gonna say. Don't you think don't you think don't you think, Drew, that that that's a possibility on that behavior?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you've always heard me say behavior is the language of animals. So whether you have a dog or a cat, and all of a sudden you see this behavior in front of you, the biggest thing you can do is say, huh, that's different. Why? And so once you know the baseline for a dog, oh that's what Hank's normal gait looks like. He looks a little stiff today. Why? Okay. Yeah, that's a little different than normal. Why? And you don't have to have the answer. Humans are such storytellers, we try to fill in the blanks and say, Oh, maybe he did XYZ, but really we just start looking. One of the most fabulous games out there, Dr. Shirag Patel, um, is kind of famous for introducing this concept of the bucket game. And it's so simplistic, they lay on a bed and you have a little cup of treats in front of them, and if they look at the treats, they eat the treats. And eventually, while you're doing that, you add some gentle touching, like to a neutral part of their body, like their shoulder. And what you see, Mark, in these videos is as they work their way down the shoulder to the elbow, and you get close to the paws, all of a sudden those dogs look away from the treats and they start pulling their hand back, and you go, huh, why? And so it could be they didn't get those handled enough as a puppy, or somebody's done some painful nail trims and that dog is predicting something scary is about to happen. And so this whole idea of cooperative care is you're making little notes and go, Hank, left side of his head, and then your proactive training would be can we desensitize him to that and say, This isn't gonna hurt, buddy. We're gonna go real nice and easy with it. And that way you're doing these proactive trains rather than waiting to find, oh, he does have, you know, a split tooth on that side or an inflamed gum or something like that that your veterinary can help you discover.

SPEAKER_01:

We could talk about this for hours, right? I mean it just goes on and on. So let's let's not do that. Let's move let's move into the the senior years. I mean, it's um this is when all the changes are gonna start to happen. And it could happen at six, seven, eight, nine, ten. It's just gonna depend on your dog, right? Um, some of it being, I guess, what we've learned breed specific, other just how you've raised your dog for all these years and what you've done to prevent things and to monitor things and catch them as they can, as they as as they arise. Um Drew, I I I don't know much about this at all. Uh what you start to see. I can I guess I can understand okay, the dog starts to have vision problems, or the dog starts to have hearing problems, or the dental problems become more pronounced, or there are mobility issues, whatever, whatever, these will lead to behavior changes. So I guess that's part of the conversation we can have. And the other part is literally I don't know what what what needs to be done.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and and I'll I'll tap Dr. Randy on this one, but I'm I'm guessing what a lot of people are dealing with as their dogs move into senior are those kind of chronic pain and ailments and diseases really coming to light. And a lot of these pets may have been suffering for a long time without people being aware. I think pain is the biggest one, Dr. Randy. You can tell me if you see something more, but I see so much undiagnosed pain where dogs are walking with, you know, three of the the legs in a certain way, and then one is kind of stiff looking or overcompensating, and a lot of cats are suffering with these ailments too, where we sort of like you said in the past, Mark, with weight is we see it gradually and it's hard for us versus those acute moments of pain or discomfort or you know, an injury where we go, oh, we need to get that treated. And so I think when our dogs get older, that's when we start to see some of those things, and we tend to kind of label and be like, oh, well, he's just getting old, right? We use age as pathology rather than saying he's not thriving. Why isn't he thriving? Is there something we can do? So that that kind of proactive lens, you know, we're just talking about adulthood being this great time to find purpose. That's when you can really start thinking about what what should dogs look like at their peak physical ability? What kind of movements can I be doing that's gonna set them up for longevity into their senior years? As we are all learning as we're aging too, um, that we have to take care of ourselves. So this idea of if you don't use it, you lose it works for muscles and cognition. And I think one of the best things you can do heading into seniors is really kind of shifting toward how do I take care of their body but also their brain, so that I don't just file them under old dog or old cat and then not do anything with them. Because once their environment starts to deteriorate, your relationship starts to deteriorate as well.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, one of the things that just came up with this 18-year-old that I was caring for in Portland, uh, the dog, you know, it had obvious issues with walking and his hind legs gave in and all that kind of stuff. The dog would pace around the living room and dining room for for like hours. And uh the owner had been in touch with the veterinarian, and one of the things that the veterinarian said was that, you know, that could be a sign of the dog being in a lot of pain. In other words, it might be we might assume, you know, dementia, something like that. Uh, but it I was like, oh, you know, the dog's walking around, but the dog might not be able to lie down. The dog might just be in pain. Does that that make sense? You're shaking your head, yes. So something to look out for. If the dog starts pacing around, walking in circles, kind of thing, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. I think uh, you know, um, we we have a very difficult time in veterinari cognitive dysfunction syndrome, um, you know, basically a dementia Alzheimer's type problem in our pets, and it usually presents with a dog staring off into space or cat. Um, or as it get progress progresses, they get what's called sundowner syndrome, which means as it gets at to become nighttime, they'll pace and pace and pace. But you're absolutely right, Mark. Pain is a very important problem with this and can be overlooked. And so, again, perfect situation for the pet to be looked at by their veterinarian and get a good physical examination because we can identify that pain. You know, we mentioned, uh Drew mentioned 60% of all cats have osteoarthritis and never get diagnosed. Why is that? Because if a cat shows it's painful in the wild, it gets eaten. And in dogs, very similar situation. Um, and I think I mentioned this last time. This is the one that kicks me every time I hear this in my rehab practice is my dog is limping, but it's not in pain.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I'm going, come on, if your dog is limping, your dog is painful. Now, there are some nerve diseases that could cause the limp, I agree, but they are much more few and far between than than there is pain involved.

SPEAKER_00:

It's funny we think that our animals are going to do these big vocalizations or come and you know tug on our sleeve and say, Hey, this hurts, right? Where a lot of these animals, like Dr. Randy just said, instinctively they hide pain. They go and some dogs will do what's called den seeking, where they start laying under furniture and you know, kind of removing themselves. You've heard me say over and over that behavior is the language of animals and those dementia and the sort of neurological deterioration conditions are really hard for veterinarians to diagnose, and that's why a lot of times trainers and you know pet guardians are some of the best at watching. So we were talking earlier, Mark, about baseline, what's normal. And so if you told me a dog was pacing, there's a scale, Dr. Randy, I don't know what they use everywhere, but uh have you heard of the disha scale for canine?

SPEAKER_02:

Um not specifically.

SPEAKER_00:

For canine cognitive disorder. I know they use acronyms and maybe that one's the UK, I can't remember, but it's like disorientation, social interactions, sleep-wake cycles, house soiling, activity, and anxiety, so it's a double A on the end. And these are all things, Mark, you could watch in your home with that 18-year-old. And so, like the classic one, I know for my senior border college, she would get stuck behind furniture. Um so that disorientation. Um, her activity and her sleep wake cycles were flipped. She slept most of the day, and then I could hear her pacing around the house during the night. Um you know, these dogs that quote unquote should know better start house soiling. They get really confused with things like glass doors. And so this is the stuff with seniors that just breaks our heart 'cause we don't know what to do. Right. And that's why these conversations with your veterinarian are so important is if you can start watching for these types of things and you know to look for those that pacing, it could be pain and it it would be a good idea. I you know, I haven't met a lot of senior pets that I didn't think had some sort of pain going on. Um, and there's some really easy treatment stuff from movements they can do around the house, some rehabilitation specialists. Mark and I interviewed a wonderful woman named Dr. Marie Bartley, and she has a website called helpspotrun.com, and she's got a pain gallery on there where you can look and see all these different ailments. And you know, there's everything from just moving those, like manipulation or manual therapy to hydrotherapy to medicines and things like that. You can work with your doctor from a nutritional standpoint and all the way down to movement to the things you're doing for enrichment. I can't tell you how much you can increase the activity in a senior pet by getting rid of one food bowl feeding a day and say, Oh, I'm gonna do a little puzzle for my dog, or I'm gonna do some scatter feeding and let Follow his nose around as he gets older. You know, and and that way you're keeping him moving, keeping him active. Dr. Randy's talked about cats as hunters and predation and things like that. Like how much more we might see those arthrotic symptoms if we were doing more enrichment type feeding with our cats versus if they're hiding and spending more time in isolation, we might not notice that.

SPEAKER_01:

So, Dr. Randy, just you know, to wrap this up, but not to cut you short by any means, I'd love to just talk about, you know, some of the physical decline issues, degenerative issues. And I'm thinking hearing loss is quite prominent, vision loss is quite prominent. Um I think nutrition has to be looked at, checked, and probably modified in this stage. There's chances are if there are mobility issues, there are going to be less exercise. Um these are things that all of us as pet owners, as pet parents, are gonna have to deal with.

SPEAKER_02:

Let's all remember that the saying age is not a disease is very important, especially when yours truly just turned 72. Um I I'm very cognizant of this. Um but it's not.

SPEAKER_01:

Drew, he's like Drew, he's like Benjamin Buttons. Look at him. He's just getting younger and happier and he's growing, he's putting he's two inches taller. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

Because I got guys like you helping me, that's what happens, you know. But you know, it's a very that's that's a great thing to talk about, Mark, because yes, um the you know, the senior dog and cat gets nuclear sclerosis, which is a hardening of the lens. And so when you look at your cat or dog at night, you'll actually see a gray, you know, kind of sign when the light hits their lens. Um that turns to cataract. And we get immature cataracts, and then we get mature cataracts. And believe it or not, the veterin ophthalmologists are phenomenal for removing a mature cataract. And I've had dogs and cats walk into my practice and bump in the walls, and the next week had one eye done for a cataract, and they're seeing unbelievably. So um then you mentioned uh hearing loss. Most of the time, there's no way people pick that up very often when it first starts to happen because they drop out at certain decibels and whatnot. So they may hear um the doorbell ring, but they may not hear you talking to them. Uh, you know, and one of the things that happens, I just had a dog yesterday that showed this, they bark incessantly. And people say, Well, I don't understand why my dog's barking all the time. The dog lost its hearing and it doesn't know that it's barking. You know, and it's it's really, and I'm sure you've seen this, Drew, too, that uh it it's it can happen very easily. There's no good test for that.

SPEAKER_01:

Can it create anxiety in the dog? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Which could cause barking? Of course, of course, because think about this. We can't explain to them what's happening to them. They don't understand what's happening, and so it becomes an anxious situation. Yeah, absolutely. So, and then mobility issues, as you mentioned, are huge. But we also worry about looking at um some of the the more common diseases like in cats, kidney failure, hyperthyroidism, uh, small bowel lymphoma. These are reasons why your cat comes in one year at seven uh at 10 pounds, and the next year is back and it's only eight pounds. There may there's a reason for that. People say, oh, you know, he's just getting older, he's losing muscle mass. Not necessarily. Not necessarily. And in a dog, uh, same thing. You know, I um I I you know, we talked about controlling weight, and I had a case yesterday that just killed me because this young couple had adopted this dog. It's now eight years old. It's a um it's a bigger kind of pit bull mix that is easily 30 pounds overweight. And he went to see their veterinarian, and their veterinarian said he's got bilateral cruciate tears in his knees, he needs to have surgery. Never once mentioned what's the weight gain from. I mean, it could be it from an inactivity, but it's also the fact that he's eating, excuse my French, crappy dog food full of carbs. And he's sitting around because he can't move, and now it just becomes a vicious cycle. And I said, you know, before I went and did surgery on this dog, if that's what I would advocate doing, which I don't, um, we need to lose 30 pounds, and we can do this. You know, we talked about all the ways, you know, through our earlier conversations about how to feed your dog and really help them. We talked about Karen Becker's uh dog book, The Forever Dog, where they mention low carb type meals, low inflammatory type meals. This makes a huge difference. You know, and then diagnosing the dog with, let's say, liver disease or kidney disease, we can help them. Uh, in the early stages, many times, like Drew said, it could be a food change, it could be a supplement change. Uh, you know, there are definitely things that can be done. But again, if I don't see your pet, and this is in the senior year, we're talking about now twice a year. Okay? I really advocate that your pet get seen twice a year. And if it has ongoing kidney or liver disease, it may be four times a year. And and I'm not doing that because I want to make money. I'm doing that because that change could be so slight, and we could make some tweaks in that, you know, food or supplement and avoid it going into a full-blown kidney failure, a full-blown liver failure.

SPEAKER_01:

Does that make sense? It does, and I think you know, I see a need, and I think you probably agree that we ought to do an entire show on just cancer. Yes. But do you want to talk about cancer now just for a minute or two?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, then I just wanted to add one thing. Um you were talking about losing their hearing. I've had two dogs, my last two dogs, who have lost their hearing later in their years and lived many years as low hearing and possibly deaf dogs. And so when we're talking about this idea of prehab versus rehab or proactive versus reactive, I would encourage anybody with a dog that hits eight years old plus to make them bilingual. Okay? And so if you can bring back those visual cues, dogs are not verbal creatures. We talk at them. So when you're in puppy class, they say grab that treat, raise it up over their head, and their head tilts back and they fall back, and then we're gonna pair it with the verbal cue sit. Now do that in reverse. Say that sit cue, and then start to integrate some sign language. It can be real ASL, which would be even cooler if you guys learn it together, or you can just do visual prompts that make sense to the dog, an upward motion, a downward motion for down, stay, come. I taught my border colleague who would roam around in the backyard if she saw the flashlight on the back fence to look back towards the deck, and I just did that with uh a little flashlight cue and then some liver treats and taught a recall with a little pen flashlight that I kept by the back door so I could get her to come back in when she was out there. There's vibration collars that are very different from shock collars, they just rattle around that can be great for getting their attention so when they can't hear us. But these are the things, Mark, if they're gonna have, you know, a lot of weight on those bones, these giant bree dogs, they need to learn how to walk up ramps or be assisted or have a brace um cue as we help them and pick them up. They need to be really comfortable with these things that are happening because, as you said, can it cause anxiety? Most definitely. If you start losing your senses and nobody's there to help you, you know, whether you're losing vision or hearing, your world starts to become very isolated very fast. And so these are the things you can start doing to help them out.

SPEAKER_01:

My second golden retriever, uh one day I'd be calling for him and he'd be in the field and he would just kind of cock his head. He just kind of looked like he heard something, but he wasn't sure where it was coming from. And this happened, this started happening. I'm like, oh, I think he's losing his hearing. Because his behavior changed when he he heard something, but maybe it was coming from this direction, but he had to turn his head to get it in this direction. It was, it's I was just being observant, and I thought he's losing his hearing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So I want to uh I want to mention you mentioned cancer. Yeah. And I really don't want to get into that because we're out of time. Um I really want to talk about it. We're gonna definitely do at least one specific podcast on cancer. Hopefully, I can grab us um one of the integrative cancer specialists in in the country, uh, and we can do that conversation. If not, I can have it also with you, Mark. But it's it's a big one. And you know, uh, one out of five animals when they uh are over ten years old develop cancer. And and the the numbers of severe cancers we're seeing so much earlier in life with these animals. And there are so many factors involved, that's why I don't want to just do that that a disservice by mentioning that, but it is certainly something we look for. Um just to let you know, there are new techniques to diagnose that cancer. There is something called HT Vista, which is a machine that looks at the heat signature of skin masses. And no longer do you have to stick a needle in and do a biopsy all the time. Uh there are blood tests that look at many different types of cancer. There's a test called Oncotech, which is a urine test, looks for many types of cancers. So these are really evolving as the genetics get better and better, we're getting better tools.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, I I think this was a great show. Absolutely. You're you're you're both welcome to end it any way you'd like and to say whatever you'd like in in uh in conclusion, but so much great information. Uh it never becomes boring. I guess we're always learning, right? And uh I think this was a great show. Thank you both.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, if I would kind of summarize, I would say adulthood is a great time to revamp that training, find your dog's purpose, think about what that dog or that breed package was created to do, and lean into it. See if you can find something that makes life meaningful. And then as they move into seniors, just remember if you don't use it, you lose it. So use that brain, teach them new things. It doesn't have to be complex. Strengthen that cognition so that you can stave off those things like doggy dementia, canine cognitive disorder by doing brain games. Keep them moving, keep them young. You know, we have these dogs to enrich our lives, so let's let's really focus on the quality of those years, not just the quantity and and making it count.

SPEAKER_01:

And Drew, just remind everybody where they can uh find you again.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, on socials I'm at Dr. Drew Little, spelled a little funny D-O-C-T-R, Doctor, because I don't have my degree yet. D-R-E-W-L-I-T-T-L-E and behaviorofdogs.com. I'm gonna have some free webinars, some school for thought stuff. So if you uh hop on there, join that newsletter, I will give you all the updates on that. If you want any of those free learning resources, let me know. I'm happy to help.

SPEAKER_02:

Let us know also, Drew, so that we can put it in our newsletter and and continue mentioning. And I I can't thank Drew enough. Uh such an amazing guy uh helping us on this stuff. And so much of this, as we the reason why we did these podcasts is they're so uh interactive as far as what behavior has to do with our medical problems. And I'd just like to summarize and say make sure you're seeing your veterinarian. Don't wait on things. If you have any issue, do it sooner than later because often uh being proactive is so much more important than being reactive, as Drew mentioned, when it comes to medicine. Um I welcome any questions at uh drandypetfett.com. Uh we will have another either Instagram or Facebook Live coming up next month, which we'll let our own our people know. Uh we'll continue doing these podcasts. Help us out and subscribe. Uh write to us. We'd love to hear from you. It makes us all feel like there's people out there listening. Uh, but thanks, Mark, for for hosting um great series. Great series.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'll just say um Drew, you mentioned Dr. Marie Bartling. Well, I think we maybe with the three of us forgot that Dr. Randy, we met Drew and I met you through Dr. Marie Bartling.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And uh we did two great shows together, and uh and now we've come together for your podcast. And I think this series, this three-part series on life stages, I love it. So thank you, Drew. It's Drew, it's been great to work with you again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

We'll do a series on rehab sometime too, because that's what we do here. And uh I, you know, I do a lot of what Marie does. She's great at it, so it's really nice. So thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, thank you. Take care.