Paws, Reflect & Heal with Dr. Randy

Is Your Pet Hiding Its Pain from You? Awareness and action are the key.

• Dr. Randy Pet Vet

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Is your pet silently suffering? Learn to recognize hidden pain in dogs and cats with holistic vet Dr. Randy and expert Dr. Marie Bartling. We reveal why up to 80% of pet behavior changes are due to undiagnosed orthopedic pain. Discover video techniques to spot subtle lameness at home, plus evidence-based supplements that work: Adequan, omega-3s, UC2 collagen, and turmeric for chronic pain management.

This integrative episode explores regenerative medicine options—PRP therapy, shockwave treatment, and joint injections—that reduce chronic pain medication needs in 85-90% of patients. We discuss anti-inflammatory nutrition, gut biome optimization, and physical rehabilitation, including underwater treadmill, laser treatment, and PEMF therapy for arthritis and mobility issues in dogs and cats.

#petpain #petrehabilitation #pethealth #integrativeveterinarian #petnutrition #arthritisinpets #petwellness 

Rehabilitation Veterinarians in Your Area
To learn more about rehabilitation for your pet and/or to find a rehabilitation practitioner in your area, you can visit the website for the American Association of Rehabilitation Veterinarians.
https://www.rehabvets.org/

Guest Bio 

Dr. Marie Bartling graduated as a veterinarian from Colorado State University in 2005. She has worked in all kinds of practices from Mexico to Alaska and on animals that range from horses, pigs, and goats to dogs and cats. Over the last 10+ years, her practice has evolved into a focused integrative rehabilitation and pain management practice for dogs and cats where she uses joint injection therapy, myofascial care, chiropractic care, acupuncture, and exercise programs in conjunction with medication and surgery to restore the physical health of pets. 

 Key Takeaways 

 - Pets often hide their pain, making awareness crucial. 

- Behavioral changes in pets often indicate underlying pain. 

- Early detection of pain will lead to better management. 

- Video recordings of pets can help your veterinarian identify subtle pain signs. 

- Arthritis can affect young animals due to genetic factors. 

- Nutrition plays a vital role in managing pet pain. 

- Rehabilitation can significantly improve a pet's quality of life.

- Integrative medicine approaches often enhance traditional veterinary care. 

Chapters 

00:00 Unde

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Send your questions to randy@drrandypetvet.com so Dr. Randy can answer them in future episodes!

If you'd like to schedule a telemedicine appointment with me, please send an email to info@pawstucson.com. Make sure to note your telephone number and a brief description of the issue you're having. Someone from my office will respond to your email to schedule an appointment.

Connect with me on my website, social media pages, and all podcast platforms!

Products and Resources I Recommend
Microbiome Testing
Animal Biome - Gut Microbiome Health Test

Nutrition
K9 Natural

Feline Natural

Just for Dogs
Farmers Dog

Other...

SPEAKER_00:

What if I told you your pet could be struggling with pain right now? And you may not even know it. Dogs and cats instinctually mask discomfort. Today we're going to talk about awareness, testing and diagnosis, pain management, and rehabilitation and maintenance, and why recognizing these cues are so important for the comfort and happiness with your pet. Stick with us on this because this is an incredible podcast that we're going to have. I expand a warm welcome to all of our listeners. And this is a very significant episode with my good friend Dr. Marie Bartling. Dr. Marie graduated as a veterinarian from Colorado State in 2005. She's worked all kinds of practices from Mexico to Alaska on animals that range from horses, pigs, goats to dogs and cats. And over the last 10 years, her practice has evolved into a focused, integrative rehabilitation and pain management practice for dogs and cats, where she uses joint injection therapy, myofascial care, chiropractic care, acupuncture, and exercise programs in conjunction with medication and surgery to restore physical health to her pets. Hey Marie, did I uh did I catch all that or did I miss anything?

SPEAKER_02:

You know what, Randy? I hope, I actually hope that what our listeners are saying right now is like, whoa, that's a lot. Yeah. Because there's so much that we can do to improve the physical health of our pets and that we should be doing for ourselves. So Randy, you totally got it.

SPEAKER_00:

Good, good. So before we get started, I want to ask a favor. If you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe to the channel. Give us a like. If you're following your favorite podcast app, like on Instagram, it's Dr. Randy Petvet. For health and wellness tips, it's drrandypetvet.com. Marie, tell our listeners your website because it's so important. We'll have it in the notes also.

SPEAKER_02:

I have a website that provides veterinary education called helpspotrun.com.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. Perfect. So um to you know, today, you know, one of the things that we wanted to talk about was that our pets hide this pain. Um, and so obviously, awareness is a very important thing. Uh, talk a little bit about what that looks like to you. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

So I don't know about you, Randy, but you know, we see an awful lot of patients, clients that have seen sometimes two or three veterinarians for weird stuff. We have a veterinary behaviorist in my practice. So I see all the really weird stuff. So it means they come in and they'll say, okay, he's been eating the walls, chasing his tail, barking at people he loves, afraid. He's now afraid of my child. He's starting to bite at people. So what's interesting is there's a study about this. Actually, Daryl Mullis did a study on this, and they found that some in a retrospective study of a bunch of different ER cases, that up to 80% of behavior cases, just acting weird, relate to animal pain. And most of those are orthopaedic pain.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So really, what this ends up looking like is anything that an animal can be doing that's strange, anything that makes them more shy than normal, more protective than normal, grumpier than normal. Um, right, just think about how people manifest pain, right? We all have this image in our head of what what a grumpy old man looks like. Oh, come. Probably hurts.

SPEAKER_00:

Probably hurts. Yeah, I'm I look in the mirror and I see that guy sometimes.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm glad you don't show them to me and your clients very often.

SPEAKER_00:

No, no, no. And and as I tell people when they come in here, age is not a disease, so we're good at we're good at that. Um, but you know, it's interesting that you said that because one of the things I love when clients come to see me is um he's not in pain because he's not limping. And I know you've probably heard that a gazillion times. And I try to explain to them that, you know, let's look at the video of him walking, or let's watch he or she walk in person and let me be the judge of that. And also through our physical exam, let me be the judge of that. Because maybe we might be able to uncover something that you're not quite getting.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh man, I love what you're saying right now. So all of my clients take video at home before they come because most of the time, dogs and especially cats will have changes in how they move that don't maybe look like overt limping, and it's very subtle. And even veterinarians sometimes can't pick it up, right? Not you or me, of course. Um, right, no, but it means that you have to see it when the animal is in the act of whatever hurts in an environment where they're not distracted by anything else, and they're not scared and trying to hide it. Which means that in our clinic, like that's kind of one of the hardest places to see pain in animals. And so what's really the best is those is those videos. And when they are doing something, going up and down the stairs, getting in and out of the car, and particularly if there's something hard to do, get video of that, right? That's that's when we see it. And um, to your point, most of the young animals, it can be so hard, right? Because they have great energy, they move fast, even if they're not moving normally.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. And can you suggest to our listeners on getting those videos? I know you have you have a little kind of routine that you usually recommend. Can we we talk about that right now?

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. So this one will be for all of the horse people in the audience. Um, right. Well, when you have a background in large animals and specifically horses, we have this expectation that they are all athletic. Uh, they should all be able to carry a rider and jump over fences or do it at whatever it is we want them to do, and that they should like it. Uh, and so what happens though is because horses are designed in our mind for this purpose and and can be expensive to keep and feed and maintain, we do regular lameness exams on horses. And so that is where I develop this idea, this technique. So it means that what I prefer to do is have a stationary phone. So ideally, it's not a person, because you know what happens when the camera's moving. It's hard. It's hard to tell. So if we really want this to go well, what you do is you get a tripod or maybe even a shelf, somewhere stable, and put the phone on it. Then you're gonna walk the dog, attempt to walk, not run, walk the dog towards the camera, away from the camera, and then go around the room in a circle each direction. And what that will do for us as veterinarians is help us pick up the subtleties, right? Because an animal that hurts in, say, a right front limb, if they're going to the right, they put more weight on that side and it makes it more obvious. If they have a neurologic problem where maybe they don't 100% know where their feet are, that circle will bring that out every time. And if we're getting fancy, you do a big circle that gets into a smaller circle, because then you'll really be able to see delays in their foot placement. And so if I was doing it at home, that's what I asked my clients to do is forward, away from the camera, around in a circle, kind of spiral into the middle, and then spiral back out. And if they want five stars, because all of my clients are five stars, right? Of course, then you want a video of them watching, watching from behind the dog going up a set of stairs, right? And then from the front of the dog watching them come back down the stairs. And as as ideally walk and trot, like when they're running, it's hard to get it. So if you need two or three takes, go for it. The more video, the better.

unknown:

Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you you'll love this uh being the the horse reference because my wife does dressage. So we have a pivot setup. You know, do you know what that is? So so I had a client come the other day and she used it, and it was amazing because you know, we watched it followed her, tracked her around with the dog, did all the things that you you referenced, and it was very, very helpful. But we don't need to spend that kind of money to do that. Uh I think everything you alluded to is perfect.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, and the funny part is we now have cameras that watch pets at home and throw treats and do all kinds of things. So I'm sure there are tons of permutations of this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. No, that's perfect. You know, and and we talk about this because um let's talk about why it's so important to catch this early, because you and I often don't have that luxury. Um, many, many times, your second and third opinion, my second and third opinion. It's been going on for quite a while, whatever's going on, and then we finally get this animal. Um, let let maybe just a minute talk about, you know, recognize this in the young. And and we, you know, we may also allude to the cat situation there too, because as you know, so many of our cats have OA, have osteoarthritis, um, but they don't show it because they in the wild would get eaten. So uh they're not gonna show it at home sometimes, too.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Well, you're singing my song, so thank you for asking this question. It is so near and dear to my heart because I entered veterinary medicine as a pet parent. I truly didn't know. Randy, I did not know that young animals have arthritis, right? In my mind, it's it's it's very old thinking. In my mind, arthritis is an old person, horse, dog, cat, disease. Here's the crazy part. It turns out arthritis comes from instability, and the most common cause of joint instability in animals, particularly dogs, is what?

SPEAKER_00:

It's usually genetics. It's dysplasia. Yeah. Oh, okay. Exactly. Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Genetics. Genetic hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, right, spinal malformation, right? You hit it. And so what does that mean? Holy moly, what does that mean? It means that a huge percentage of our patients, like 80% of them, have not had arthritis as an old animal, but their whole life, which means that they are coping with this with a bright and shiny smile their whole life until they can't. And then what happens is they come to us and it's hard. It's hard to see them in dysfunction. It's hard to feel like they're failing, the animals, right? And so we have now, say, a 12-year-old dog, and really there's a lot of things that we can and could have done, but at this stage, it's not going to give us as much for our effort, and it's gonna cost more. So we start having this discussion around well, is is it even worth it?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And that is my least favorite conversation. Oh, yeah. So my favorite conversation, if there is one around arthritis, is unfortunately is hard to tell an owner that their puppy has elbow dysplasia, right? But my favorite is really if we can get it this early, like what are some of the things that you do in your practice for dogs who are young to middle-aged for arthritis that's that's kind of special and makes a difference. What do you use?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I, you know, I I start at the beginning of foundational medicine. And so I'm working on my my first 20 minutes of any conversation is typically diet, um, because I want all the anti, I want no inflammation in this in this animal's body because that only spurs the pain response and makes things worse. And so getting soy, corn, wheat, rice, white potato out of their diet. Um, I look at the Chinese um principle of thermogenic properties of food and getting lamb and veal um and also um chicken out of their diet. People don't realize chicken can be in hot meat helps. And I go to the conversation of supplements. So that conversation happens before we ever get to the other types of things that you and I do to help these animals.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. And the other thing that we we really do know, right? There's all these, it's tricky because then sometimes with the clients that are really invested, it's like, well, what really works and what should I be doing and how do I make this perfect? Gosh, we're never perfect.

SPEAKER_01:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

What we do know is the most important thing is that we don't overfeed them in general, right? If we can keep their weight down, and especially if we already know they have arthritis, right? It's been proven that a normal weight dog, they did this in labs, old study, right? Periodist study, normal weight dogs with hip dysplasia versus obese dogs, same family with hip dysplasia, those dogs that are overweight get six times more arthritis.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And so arthritis is not a certainty. That's what we need to know. Some animals get arthritis, people get arthritis in different places in their body. Right. So we need to be thinking about holy cow, if we get to these animals early in their life, we can help them rebuild their body, keep their symmetry, maintain their muscle flexibility and range of motion and all of the things that reduce friction and create arthritis. Right. So, um, so yes, my favorite conversation is to start helping with regenerative medicine, with diet, with rehabilitation in these patients that are maybe a couple years old. We know they have a clinical problem. We know that it's worth working on. We know we're giving them their best quality of life at their peak performance, right? Um, so it really is. There's a sweet spot, and it does make that conversation a little easier for all of us to take.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It's always difficult. You you mentioned I what I always struggle with is staring at a very overweight client who now has who is also has a very young overweight animal and trying to kind of enforce the fact that we're looking at that body score, that we're we want to grade your animal, showing them the body score chart, and then saying, you know, even the dog longevity study showed that an animal that is a body score of five out of nine can typically live two to have two and a half years longer. So I, you know, I I get them on that point where it's like, I want I want this kid to be with you as long as possible, but not just longevity, but health span. We want to make sure that they're healthy and they're feeling good. So yeah, that that's great message. Great message.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I mean, the best news is we know that that owner loves this dog so much. Exactly. And so the tricky part then is to reframe those values and say, okay, what is good, right? What is good in the span of longevity and health? What do we want out of this? And how can we show love that's not food?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. No, uh, that that's that's perfect. That's perfect. Um, let's move into testing and diagnosis because I think that's a really good uh thing to talk about. And one of the things that you shared with me, by the way, just to let you know, this lady is kind of one of my heroes in in mobility and pain. So, you know, this is a real, real blessing that we have this chance to talk. But one of the things that you shared with me very early, which I kind of forgot, was that a lot of times even doing gabapentin before that dog comes into the clinic can help us actually spot the pain easier or the discomfort easier than allowing them to be, you know, super excited and having this, you know, this uh fear factor of the clinic and and all of that. Um, many, many times that pre-dosing can really help you and I spot a you know an area of discomfort.

SPEAKER_02:

100%. So it's it's kind of counterintuitive for us who are integrative and kind of holistic minded to want to give a medication to our patients.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

So it's difficult for us to accept that. But here's the thing pain after it's set in for more than a couple weeks starts to branch and it's more regional and sometimes even crosses over the spinal cord. If it's really intense and it's been there for weeks to months, something like really inflamed arthritis in a dog that maybe has cushions, diabetes, bad diet, allergies, extra reasons to be inflammatory, that patient is gonna hurt everywhere.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

It makes it so much harder for us to examine them and for them to relax when they hurt everywhere.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And so we evolved as veterinarians this process where we always sedate for hip x-rays. Well, that's how I get around it. That's how you people like you and I get around it, right? Is we do something like, okay, well, let's do a little cocktail of something that helps relax them, like Trozidone, and something that then takes some of the pain and anxiety away, like the gabapentin, and even Rimidal if they need it that day, right? To get their x-rays done. Exceptionally helpful in young, fearful patients.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, yeah, because really the reason they don't want us to touch them or to take their x-ray is that they're afraid that it will hurt because it usually does. One of my favorite patients of all time, he taught me so much. His name is Atticus. Atticus is a pity, and he is rescued by a family who rescues pities. They know these dogs, and they brought him to me, and it was one of those they said, you know, he really wants to socialize you with you. He really wants to socialize with you, but he can't. He is the dog who sits under the table and his tail is over there like this. He wants to see you so bad he's about to explode.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

And so once we got through his his pain process, right, he became a totally new dog. He plays with the people, he plays with the you know, with the other dogs. He's a totally new dog. And there is no possible way I would have been able to do his exam and his diagnostics without his pre-meds. Here's what's interesting he came to me on Prozac, but no pain meds.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02:

Guess what helped more? His pain meds.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Guess what? Prozac also is a back door to the pain system. And so sometimes it helps a little bit. And I would say I would share that in these patients where we're like, man, this dog is super anxious.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure.

SPEAKER_02:

Right? Could it be pain? If Prozac helps a little, that's the pain mans.

unknown:

Sure.

SPEAKER_03:

Sure.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Um, because you will find so much more. And then as you're alluding to, when you go in with your hands, it the pain will be focal. It will be where the pain is coming from instead of throughout the whole patient.

SPEAKER_00:

You mentioned that's a great point. You mentioned going in with your hands. Physical exam can be a real critical thing. And it's interesting, people, some people don't realize that people like yourself or myself who have had rehabilit rehabilitation certification, who have had pain management certification, sometimes have a little bit of an leg up on determining these spots. And I often get um just yesterday, I had a dog that came in and was referred in for back pain. And the the veterinarian said, Oh, yeah, I'm picking up lumbar spinal pain. Uh, that's what's going on. I want it to come in for rehab. And the client said, Well, why do I have to have a rehab exam if my my veterinarian and I said, you know, there are times when I just want to go over for myself. I may want to get measurements, girth measurements of the back legs. There are certain things that I can do that I like. And that dog had a partial cruciate uh rupture in its left knee. And, you know, and again, it's you I have to handle that very carefully with like my pet parent. Um, and but it's you know, it's just interesting to see that when you do these exams and you have kind of this kind of leg up, it makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_02:

No, we hope that anything we study, we get good at.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh, right. And so I am not about to go teach French. Nope. Nope. However, I have studied animal rehabilitation and pain management. So you're a hundred percent hit it. And you know, to give ourselves just a little grace, um, right, when animals are painful in multiple places, it totally makes sense that somebody who has really good but basic training and pain management and exam might pick up on one of those, right? As rehabbers, admit we are fairly obsessed about finding all of the problems so we can fix all of the problems because physical rehabilitation, because physical rehabilitation is all about the whole pet. It's about return to function. And if we don't actually find all the reasons they're painful, they only get partially better.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Exactly. That grumpiness only slightly goes away. You're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, and it or it ebbs and flows. It gets better and worse. How many times have you heard that? Right? So, yes, I I uh applaud you for for having studied and being careful and and precise about what you're trying to do. That is the benefit of seeing any specialist.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And then we we often talk about the diagnostics that are involved, uh, radiographs, gate analysis. Um, any any thoughts on that that world?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, you know I do.

SPEAKER_00:

That's that's why I asked, of course.

SPEAKER_02:

So in my best world, if we could screen all of our pets for arthritis when they get spated neutered, which in our world now is an evolution, right? Might that might be a year or a year and a half old. Um, right, if we could do just screening x-rays, just one basic hip extended x-ray, just to see. Yep, I would advise considering, depending on the breed, it's a pity, the pities. We need to x-ray their knees too, right? Because those subtle things we could be picking up even before truly even sensitive hands. And and this can be done in general practice as part of wellness care, right? So just as we would screen older dogs for cancer, I would like us to do basic x-rays, two elbows, one hip extended, maybe two knees, and all of our spay and patients, every single one. Yes, even the little ones.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And and if this is a breed that me, you know, might might benefit maybe like a Frenchie, maybe a spine x-ray would be a good idea, right? Because it tells us. Yeah, because what would you do with that, Mandy? So say you get a two-year-old, let's call it a French bulldog. Right? Yeah. And you know that his spine is maybe not perfect. Um, and maybe his patellas are just a little bit on the loose side. What would you do differently for this two-year-old dog if you had that knowledge?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, a lot. You're right. I mean, it's very, very helpful. And it's interesting because I also go have to go to a place um on these screening situations where I now believe that biome should be part of every young dog's wellness exam. Because when you when I can identify excess streptococcus, or I can identify uh a dysbiosis going on or a vitamin D level that's not correct. Oh my God, I can make such a difference in that animal. But then it's just one more thing I've got to add along with the Phillips. But you're absolutely right. These are things that I think we will evolve into. I really see this as, you know, the proactive part of veterinary medicine is getting so much better. And I think people like yourself and myself, we keep on proposing this and putting it out there to the to the ether, it's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Well, and and slowly as we uh have clients long term and they become part of our our wellness tribe, right? And we all believe the same things, then we start to do it on on the regular. So, right, so you say, okay, every six months we check their biome, right? Once every couple years after we have their baseline x-rays, we might x-ray them again and just see how their body's changing and what we can do to change that, versus it's trying to accept it once they're have problems. Which, yes, of course, we can do all of these things. Like we said, for older pets, we can change lives, right? But we have an opportunity for years ahead of time. Uh, I love that you brought up the biome. There is an integrative and one health group, meaning humans and animals studying the biome as it relates to pain uh at NC State currently. Uh I cannot wait to see. Yeah, I can't wait to see. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we're at the University of Arizona with Dr. Weil, who I work with quite a bit. Um, they're actually doing a beautiful study on the brain-gut connection and the interplay between biome and all of the um, you know, seizures and manias and bipolar disease. And and there, I mean, I have to just tell you this one little story because I I just talked to him the other day. There was a little girl that came in five years old, seizures every single day, seizuring every single day on four different seizure medicines. And they put her in the study and did her biome and found that she was very out of balance. Um, C. diff, Cperf, um, also high Streptococcus levels, and then some of the other, you know, kind of unusual type bacteria and and yeast. And corrected her biome through fecal microbiome transfer, giving her good poop, guys. That's what that means. And she is down to once a month. Once a month. I mean, and you know, it's it's so it's it's so exciting to see this these things coming. And I know they'll we'll get to incorporate these things in our practice more and more um as time goes on. That's why we're here. Yep. So we've now kind of identified pain. Um, let's talk about rehab and regenerative medicine, because I know that's huge for you, that's huge for me. Um, I love our listeners to know what what that looks like.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Well, um, so I think this is selfishly again where I kind of refer back to people and maybe the horses a little bit.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, because if we think about, if our goal is that our pets are as healthy as possible, that means, of course, systemically, diet, etc., but it also means physically. And if we think about as a species, who has the best physical care, right? Then we kind of start leaning into like who would that be? Humans and horses.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

And then if you compare humans and horses by percentage, it's the horses.

unknown:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Because um, because we expect them to be physically well. Okay. And so if we just start with the baseline of physically well means you're not on daily meds, anti-inflammatories, etc., to be comfortable and you can run, jump, and play and do what you want to do. That takes some time to get physically trained for that, right? So our humans that are like horses are people who are in sports, right? And those are the people who get the physical care. And I'm not gonna talking about just massage. We all deserve massage, right? The natural process of aging cross cross links your collagen. So I I give you all permission to have massage. Okay. So I'm talking about though, the actual physical training and rehab. So these young animals that we want to be able to be at clinic, say that they are maybe doing fun stuff like fly ball or agility or you know, any kind of competition sport, say they're training to hunt, um, right, or or just even take long hikes with you. If we have those guys in the clinic and do their physical training, it's rehab, but it's actually prehab, right? That's getting them to be symmetrical and strong. That prevents injury, right? And the crazy part is people will say, Well, I take my dog for a walk twice a day. Well, you and I both know that does not actually change the stability muscles around the joint. So here's what's important about that. It's a very different movement to walk than it is to get out of a chair, than it is to land off of a jump. Right. So this is so important because it means we can do physical exercise for young animals when they're healthy, so they can be healthier.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh, and we in the horse community we know that, right? So oftentimes horses will be have their diagnostic x-rays when they're three years old. Um, you know, and then we're starting to think, well, geez, I don't want to have to give them anything or do anything to them. They're young. Okay, enter regenerative medicine. What if, what if we could take the components of blood of platelets that help repair tissue and put them back into the tissues where they are damaged.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

We can. It's it's called platelet rich rich plasma, it's called platelet rich plasma.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Right?

SPEAKER_02:

And we can get fancy and do stem cells and collagen and all kinds of things, right? So if we just know, if we just know one, that we have an animal that is in work and maybe creating damage. I mean, we we expect a 50-year-old football player to have some arthritis, don't we?

SPEAKER_01:

Sure.

SPEAKER_02:

Like, how could there not be? Right. So if we just know and expect it, right? Um, and you use some some of these things in your practice. What are your favorites?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm doing a lot. Um, I actually uh got turned on recently. Recently to PRGF, which is platelet-rich growth factors coming over from Spain, a company called Endoret. I love the responses I'm getting with that. And I often I often combine it with something like Spring or some kind of cushioning agent that I'll put in there. I know there's a lot of them out there. I don't know if you're using Cinnobitin or some of those other products. But that's, you know, these animals get shockwave and then they get these injections. And it's been going phenomenally. Oh, give me an example. Tell me about a case. So little dog Jack Jack, uh, little fox um wire hair fox terrier, bilateral cruciate tears. Um, didn't want to go to surgery. He's 12 years old. And, you know, the no matter what I talked about, the client said, Nope, we're we're gonna do rehab and we're gonna do whatever you think you can do to help my dog. And so we, you know, did the whole food conversation, the biome, all of that stuff, and supplements. And then we uh talked about joint injections. And so dog had shockwave, dog had bilateral PRGF and spring. And I just got a uh a call from the lady who thinks that I walk on water, even though I told her that I can't find the stones to do that with. Um, but the dog is just, I mean, he's so happy and he's doing so, so well. And with physical therapies, he's in rehab here, so he's getting laser and he's getting PEMF and he's getting underwater treadmill and he's getting home exercises. Um, he he's he's just doing great. And so that's a great, you know, piece. How about yourself?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I have questions. Can I ask questions? Oh you you can.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know if I'm gonna answer them, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, so is Jack Jack on medications now? And how if so, how many compared to when he started?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, so um when he came in, he was on uh N said, he was on Remadil. Uh he was on Um uh also on Tramadol. He was also on trying to think what else. Anyway, there were three or four that he was taking with very limited success. And right now he's taking a little bit of gabapentin because he does have some anxiety uh and it lowers his, it's an anti-anxiolytic along with pain medicine. I don't have to worry about you know his kidney and liver so much with with that drug, and that's all. That's all he's taking. That he gets ataquan um as a supplement. He gets uh jope, he gets omega-3s, um, he has on he's also on a little bit of myos canine for for to help limit myostatin uh production. But yeah, I mean he's doing phenomenal.

SPEAKER_02:

Randy, I'd work with you any day. So the process you're talking about, just for the listeners, right, is this process of going from pain management through healing, actual healing. So you don't need the pain medications anymore, right? And supplements are designed to provide some of the nutrition that those tissues need to be healthy, right? So this obviously, this owner and this veterinarian that had Jack Jack before, they were doing everything they could to try to make him better with medications. You can see it, right? But what he really needed was for somebody to go in and change his tissues. And so there's this concept that I will touch on lightly here, right? In that there's different kinds of pain. Yes, right. And so the reason the rehabilitation piece is so important is it addresses the physical sources of pain. And that is actually the only way to reset the system. So what happens when we get painful is that our neurologic system takes in that information that we're painful, we're painful, we're painful, and it becomes like a dial on a radio, for those of us old enough to know what a dial on a radio is. Right. So we we turn up the volume of the pain system and it fires faster and it fires louder than it's supposed to. And pretty soon the whole pain system is ringing. That process cannot be stopped without the right medications in the right order, and then also care of those tissues so that they stop screaming because the brain and then it's and the spinal cord have that ringing going on.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

And so it's this process of literally unwinding the wind-up pain that brings us back to being able to control the whole system again.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Um, and so that that leads me into the second soapbox. Um, right, you mentioned some really oh, you mentioned some great supplements, right? And there are, I mean, how many supplements are out there for pet pain?

SPEAKER_00:

Um unbelievable numbers.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So how did you choose Adaquan is a favorite? How did you choose Adaquan?

SPEAKER_00:

I um Adequan came to be, again, from the horse world, um, when it, you know, when it was being used there so so frequently. And the fact that Adequan helps, in my mind, helps um our cartilage imbibe water to become spongier is like, oh my God, what does that? I mean, I can't think of a lot of things that will do that, you know? Um, so I I've been using, I mean, uh, you know, I'm an old guy, but I've been using Adequan for a long time. And um, it is definitely part of my protocol uh and seeing amazing, amazing results.

SPEAKER_02:

Amazing. I mean, so Adequan is the only disease-modifying arthritis drug that we have. In other words, it is the only supplement, if you will, that actually changes the process of arthritis, right? It is an anti-inflammatory, it sequesters the chemistry in there that creates damage and pain. It also, as you alluded to, pumps up the cartilage over time. That takes the whole series, right? Like that's not one injection of Adiquan. You have to build it up over time. And so what's interesting is if you give an injection or two of Anaquan, they feel better. If you give a series of Adequon, they now have healthier joint lining and cartilage. Yeah, booyah. Like, what else could we like to have this? Yes, right. And so it brings up this question of like, geez, you know, it's a little more expensive than buying uh an over-counter glucosamine. Yeah, you betcha. However, did you know? This kind of broke my heart, Randy. It was a systematic meta-analysis. They took 200 papers about glucosamine and asked this question, does it really actually do anything? And said out of all the decades of glucosamine research, it does it does absolutely nothing for pain. And there are no measurable changes from glucosamine. There are some in the veterinary world, some small studies, right, that are important. NeutraMash did great work there, so I don't mean to to poo-hoo that. But if I'm thinking about a patient, let's go with again, a two-year-old lab, sure, um, right, I know has elbal arthritis, uh, we're gonna go better, right? We want to use something that actually changes the disease process. We know that it costs a little bit more. We also know what we get from it is much better, right?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, and so if you had to pick two more of your favorite evidence-based supplements, you mentioned a couple, what would they be?

SPEAKER_00:

Um well, I mentioned JOPE. Um, it's ultra collagen, you know, I I really like the um ultra-collagen two that's in there and the turmeric. Um the myos I talked about because of the really the beautiful studies that are being done right now in sarcopenia where we're losing muscle and um chronic kidney disease in cats where they lose so much muscle, hyperthyroidism. Um, so I love that product. Um there are you know, there's some there's some other things in in in Chinese medicine that I've used, um, but those are my main ones. How about yourself? Yeah, I mean, I know you have something on your mind because you wouldn't have asked that.

SPEAKER_02:

So well, I think that your listeners need to know this. I think that they might be out there buying 50 supplements. How do I know? Because our clients come in with a basket, right? We have the best clients on the planet. They are doing everything they can, and they don't just bring in the list, they bring in the basket, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

So if we are spending hundreds of dollars a month on the wrong supplements that we could be spending on joint injections, shockwave, rehab, PRP, PR, platelet rich growth factor, like some of these things that actually change the body. Yes, what would the outcome be? Right? So I think this is critically important. And we always get this question well, what's best? So I'm asking this question because I love what you're doing. Undernatured collagen 2 has great evidence that it helps slow the degeneration of our own collagen. Did you know that we break down our own collagen? That's annoying. Right? So it's important. It's important. Um, so I I love UC2. Whether it is uh dope is a good one, turmeric has proven to be anti-inflammatory. Love that. Um, so whatever form. Myos, right? Obviously, money muscle benefits are important. Um, the other one that's proven is uh tried and true, right? Uh omega-3 fatty acids. Um, so it turns out that the reason we have been telling you, pet parents, for years to give your pets fish oil is because it interrupts the production of inflammation. It literally is like a puzzle piece. It will go in there and jam the system so you make less inflammation. Amazing, right? And both UC2 and omega-3 fatty acids have been tested against an NSAID like Rimadil and shown to have similar effect. Right? And so, not to um take the hat off the magic here, right? Because Randy, you are magic. Um, what percentage of your patients do you think live on four kinds of chronic medication for pain?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I would say um probably my my personal ones are after I see them or before when they come to me. Yes. Which one?

unknown:

Which one?

SPEAKER_02:

Tell me tell me how that looks. So the patients when they come to you, what percentage of them are on tons of medication?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I would say easily 85 to 90 percent easily.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And after they're in rehab for usually the process takes a couple months, right? You're rebuilding the body. So go three months, three months later, what percentage do you think are on all of those chronic medications still?

SPEAKER_00:

I would say um very I mean less than five percent.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

If we've gotten our hands on them and w they're doing our protocol and or what you know what we know to have worked, yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And but that doesn't happen with supplements alone, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And so what would you say to people who are hearing this and they're thinking, man, I give my dog all the right supplements, I just don't, I just don't take it in a rehab. What would you say?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I would say it's being like half pregnant. You know, you either are or you're not. Um, so I tell people, I tell people, you know, if we really want health span, longevity, and wellness for your pet, this multimodal modal effect that you alluded to earlier is so important. And, you know, it's not just walking them more or swimming them more, it's having direction where you're getting um underwater treadmill where that that exercise, you get 70 to 80 percent of the the pain off of uh the weight off of that joint in a controlled environment. You get laser, you get PEMF, you get exercises that are given to you. Um this really it's just it's just a ticket. And and I I I always I I always it's hard for me a little bit to see, like last week I had a phenomenal dog, so so beautiful. It was 10 years old and just so painful. And the lady only wanted to do a couple supplements, you know, didn't want to do Adaquan, didn't want to do rehab. And, you know, so you know, I did my job and we laid this all out for them. And obviously they got beautiful notes and a discharge instruction advising all these things. And my only my only hope on that case is that she'll see the light and start coming to some of the other things that that we can do to help that dog. Because that's all I want to do, and that's all you want to do. We want to we want to make this pet comfortable.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I do you think that's that she doesn't want to do the other things? What do you think was the obstacle?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm sure you know, I'm sure cost is always a concern. Um, you know, it's there, and and I can't can't lie, it's it's tough. When you're in a situation where medical medicine is out of pocket and is not so beautifully covered by or not beautifully covered, I should say, by health insurance. Um, you know, it's it's difficult for some clients. And and we we try to help all the way we can. I mean, if they want to get supplements online, you know, I'm not a supplement salesperson. I please get them wherever you can save money. Um we try to help on on therapies and whatnot too to scale things down. You know, we always offer the A plan, as you know, because that's what I feel responsible for. But if we have to go to B and C, we do.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. Well, and so here's the crazy thing. How many people do you think do regenerative medicine for themselves?

SPEAKER_00:

I would say very few.

SPEAKER_02:

And what do you think the obstacle is?

SPEAKER_00:

Um well, I think it's it's typically that they're gonna see an orthopedic surgeon who said this needs to be a surgical procedure and they don't tout uh the PRP or the stem cells or you know, or the chondro protective agents, whatever. I I think that they're just not getting the information.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And even sometimes when they do get the information, right, then what's the obstacle?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I think it's this well, I think it's the practitioners bent on what really works and what doesn't, or their experience.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So it's it's always a limit. The limitation is always what we don't know and what we haven't prepared for.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Right? Um, because I would say I think you're right. And I think the third bucket is these are people who also have not saved money for their health care, and regenerative medicine for people is also out of pocket.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And so if I had any takeaway messages to add to this podcast, it would be that one. It would be guys, animals, just like people who have arthritis that starts when they're young, are going to have medical problems that we need to be looking for so that we're actually solving a problem that can be solved easily, and it is gonna cost money.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So if we save the money, we get to do the therapy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02:

And so that's the hardest part, I think, right, for us as veterinarians is we get all of this knowledge. We build this safe wellness atmosphere, fear-free, as kind as possible. We study all the things. And then what it comes down to is well, I can only do this much because I only have this much money.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_02:

Or because I only want to spend this much money because this dog is how old? Because I didn't know this before.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. And so if there's anything to take away from this, it's that, right? We need to be saving like we would save for humans, right? So my I'm not afraid to say my health insurance is about$350 a month. If I actually used all the money I put into my health insurance, do you know how much regenerative medicine I could do?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Right. So pet insurance or no pet insurance, right? From the day we get them, if we have enough money and don't get them until we do, right? Right. To save to save monthly for their health care, by the time we need it, we get to do really cool stuff.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And, you know, I love that point because I bring this up to my my puppies and kitten people all the time. I said, you know, if you're looking at uh pet insurance for major medical, I don't have a problem with that typically. Although you're right, it's a big expense. But a health savings account for your pet would make even more sense because you're not only generating some uh interest, you know, little as it could be sometimes, but um, but you're you're building on that. And in no time you'll have funds that, God forbid, your dog gets that OA diagnosis, your cat, or whatever. Um, then it's there. So you're absolutely right. It's such a really critical point. It's not just insurance. Although the good thing for us, uh at least what I'm seeing is some of the insurance companies now are covering some of the integrative medicine, some of the rehab medicine. We didn't have that for quite a while. I mean, people said, Oh, you want to do acupuncture on my dog, my insurance company won't cover that. But some of them that now do. So some of them do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So so smart, such a smart point, right? That we need to look at which companies cover congenital conditions. Because the the reason they won't cover it is because it's pre-existing. And I think, like I said, 80% of animals have arthritis that they've had since they were oh yeah, they were born with it. Right. So the problem with insurance and trying to cover the physical medicine that we do is there's almost always a loophole.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

So if you save the money, no one will ever tell you no.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. No, you're absolutely right. You're right.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Um, and so I'm I'm all about pet insurance and I have used it. Um, and there are a couple companies I'm so grateful uh to the animals that they, you know, they have really helped change lives for.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree. I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_02:

And we're you know, but it's a big deal.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it really is. So um we're probably we're running out of time, which always um I'm so sad about. Um I um I want to say that, you know, I can't thank you enough for what you do. And, you know, you're you know, really it's it's a it's a light. And you know, when I go out and do my talks, um, I got a couple cut cat talks coming up, which I'm real excited about. Um, you know, I encourage these people to any subtle change that you see in your pet, tell your veterinary. I mean, start start there and let let he or she know what you're seeing and and and hopefully they they can address that or at least look for causation in that situation. Um, because that, you know, this pain we can prevent and manage and mitigate. Um, you know, these are things that, you know, these pets don't have to suffer if we can get this early enough as we you and I have talked. But I also tell people, um, you know, when I had that 12-year-old dog, that dog could live to 17 or 18. I don't know that. You don't know that. And so why not have what we call health span and not just longevity for this pet?

SPEAKER_02:

I love this. I love this. And I will put in one last plug for the cat. Please. Uh, right, because uh of our pets, which are the animals that live to be 20 years old?

SPEAKER_00:

It's our felines, it's our cats. The cats.

SPEAKER_02:

And you're you hit it, right? They they very rarely actually even go to the vet because they're so quiet.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02:

And so be mindful, right, as our pet parents and our cat lovers, um, right, the cats get horrendous disease that truly makes them quieter.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

And then the opposite is also true. If you have an excessively spicy kitty, ask yourself, is there anything I could be missing? It's usually their teeth, their elbows, or their back. Because we don't brush their teeth, right? It's difficult, uh, and they jump off of things for a living, right? So if you think about it, right? Again, if you are a uh a stunt man for movies, right? How good do you think your knees are by the time you've done this for 10 years, right? So remember, cats are very special. We know they're aliens, but they're also stunt doubles for movies. So they need they need regular evaluation that is real. That means you have to bring them in, guys. Please bring in your cats.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. Thank you so, so much. Um, this is always such a pleasure. Um, I don't know if you guys listening understand this, but it's just as much fun for me and Marie to do this as for you to listen to what's going on. So if you have questions, Marie, talk about your site, your website again if people want to ask questions or get more information.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, I'm mostly doing veterinary education right now. And so I'm going to redirect them mostly to you. However, um, the website is helpspotrun.com.

SPEAKER_00:

It's a wonderful website, guys, if you haven't seen it. And then ours is Dr. Randy Petfet. Uh, there's a newsletter, there's podcasts, there's YouTube, there's God knows what. I mean, videos we're making. Um, and hopefully we'll be out on the speaking circuit. Um, because I'm more directed toward the pet parent. I, you know, I love the fact that you can reach out to the us as veterinarians. And the disappointment for me is I started a long time ago on this integrative track, and it was, I was a charlatan. I mean, it was really difficult to go to a veterinary meeting and talk to veterinarians about even things like B12 or, you know, whatever, easy stuff, let alone biome and and and the and and allergy testing and this kind of thing. So, anyway, um, thank you for your job because we we all need to get educated, especially in our profession. And guys, I think you can see that Dr. Marie and I are very optimistic about this subject. We can make a difference in your cat and dog. Um, just be off be aware of it, observe, talk to your veterinarian, and if you're not getting anywhere, get to somebody else who who can maybe look at it a little closer.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think that's brilliant. And we're gonna share some resources with them, right? So the things to know where to find a rehab veterinarian. We can give you a couple websites where you can find your own locally.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh, is my dog overweight, my cat overweight, and my it is this maybe contributing to over time what they might have for health problems, diabetes, arthritis, etc. Right. And then does my animal have pain?

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. And so we'll make sure you have those references and then on my website, probably the best thing is just an example of those videos. Um right. So you have a good description. I know you guys can do it and don't stress out. If you can get any video, especially with cats, bring it to your vet just for even your annual wellness, right? Just to do, just to do a screening because everything you see at home will be so much better than what we can see when they're excited and nervous in the clinic.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. Well, my my my prayers are that you you and I run into each other in one of these meetings or somewhere that we can see each other. And obviously, you know, you're always welcome to Tucson. Um, I actually have my rehab um uh certified tech coming to Colorado that I need to ask. I'll I'll text you about it. But she'd like to see the clinic if you're gonna be around or you know, get some ideas of where to visit because she'll be in Denver. So we'll talk about that. Thank you. That's all I can do. Pleasure, Randy. From the bottom of my heart. I really appreciate it. Have a good time. Take care. Thank you for all you do. Absolutely, you too. Thanks. Bye.