Featuring Liturgical Music Composer Gregory Norbet

Today we will hear from respected music composer, spiritual leader, singer and retreat director, Gregory Norbet, who also spent 21 years as a Benedictine monk at the Weston Priory in Vermont. I'm honored to be able to speak with him today. I hope you enjoy this interview.

You can visit his website at www.gregorynorbet.org .

Songs on this episode: Choir of Angels and Hosea, both written and performed by Gregory Norbet. 
 
If you stick around at the end of this interview, Gregory has been generous enough to allow me to record some of his music. Thank you for listening! 
Please consider subscribing or leaving a review.

For more information about me and my work, please visit www.BrianneTurczynski.com or www.LovingTheImperfect.com

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For more information about me and my work, please visit www.brianneturczynski.com or www.lovingtheimperfect.com

Transcript

Intro:

Welcome to Loving the Imperfect Podcast, a show for seekers of deeper contemplation. I'm Brianne Turczynski. For 10 years, I've been studying offerings from holy teachers and holy texts. I'm a journalist who has listened to the stories of many people throughout the years, and I continue to be captivated by the stories of how God nudges and directs us, either by closing doors or opening them. So, join me as we listen to these extraordinary stories and become witnesses to the truth of love  

Thank you for joining me today on Loving the Imperfect. Today we will hear from respected music composer, spiritual leader, singer and retreat director, Gregory Norbet, who also spent 21 years as a Benedictine monk at the Weston Priory in Vermont. I'm honored to be able to speak with him today. I hope you enjoy this interview.

You can visit his website at www.gregorynorbet.org, I’ll put a link in the information for this show. 
 
 If you stick around at the end of this interview, Gregory has been generous enough to allow me to record some of his music, a couple of his songs, one is called Hosea, and the other one is an instrumental. So, I hope you enjoy it. Thank you for joining me.  

 Gregory: I was a Benedictine monk for 21 years. I had two years before that that I was a Franciscan and novice Okay but the Graymoor Franciscans. But I found my journey ultimately of me to the Benedictines.  I was studying at St. Michael's College in Vermont and was introduced to this humble monastic community with a barn for a chapel, in the middle of Vermont and was very attracted to that way of life.

I think my heart had always hungered for, a worshipful, contemplative, place in life and didn't know quite how to find that, but it, I guess it sort of found me. When I visited there, I loved the silence. I loved the Gregorian chant. I love the sense of community and fellowship and the sense of hospitality.

St. Benedict's, one of his mottos was always let the stranger be received as Christ. Welcome everybody. So that was a big part of my life back then and remains so today.  
 
 Brianne: So how old were you when you felt this draw?

Gregory: When I went to Weston, I was 21. Oh, okay.  So, when I'd had some college, I went to the State University of New York in Cobleskill, which is a two-year degree in, business management.  And, then did some studies in English at St. Michael's. And, I didn't get my master's degree until 1985, when I was 40, 45, I never got a bachelor's degree.

I was given the master's degree in conjunction with my studies and my life experience.  So, that was Loyola University in Chicago.  I've read Thomas Merton’s seven story mountain his call his, draw toward contemplative life the church was pretty profound. 
 
 Brianne: Did you have any mystical moments like he did or, was there a moment that you were like, okay, this is what I definitely want? Well, early on, I began to read him,  because he was publishing back then,  obviously, and I was very drawn to his works,  , also to the works of Henry Nowen, who was sometime after that,  well, during and after, but, Thomas Merton was to visit our monastery on his way back from India when he was at that conference,  which unfortunately is where he died.

He was electrocuted by a fan.  And so, we were really looking forward to meeting him.  but we were a very small, humble community. We had to work very hard. We were very poor. We, we didn't know exactly how we would make a living, but we did all kinds of things.  Maple. syrup, we had chickens, we had bread, we had, eventually a small gift shop of religious objects, some of which the monks made, myself included, I did some sculpture and some woodworking back then, and we had a brother there who was a potter who became very famous, Brother Thomas, and [we did] weaving, cloisonne enamel, various things. 

But I think that the aha moments were kind of experienced in quiet and reflective time. We'd get up for our morning vigil at 4 a.m.  And then we had the silence until 8 o'clock when we had our morning gathering for the prayer and the distribution of work needs that day.  So, that was a time for reading, for praying, for quiet, and the silence. Silence can be a great teacher if one learns how to listen and it's a life’s work to be able to put aside distractions and worries and fears because the mind sometimes wants to jump all over.

So that was a very disciplined time. And then, we had a record player, quite good sound. And I remember listening to Handel’s Messiah many times.  And it was an edition that was published. with these large prints of the work of Fra Angelico. So, I would listen alone in the piano room to that music, and I would just be so moved, and I felt like I'm having the religious experience that Handel must have had to write those pieces.

Very profound.  And then I began listening to other people, Bach and the Italian masters and also became a fan of opera, Saturday afternoon opera, at the Met in New York on the radio because another monk was interested in that and we really loved it, so I think that gave me not only appreciation of composing good melodies, but I'm not sure I was writing back then, but I began to write after that. 

Music became a very religious, spiritual, heart-moving experience for me. And it was as a child, too. My mother played piano, my dad sang, and we would gather around the piano and sing. And then, of course, belonging to a church that sang only in Latin back then, but the liturgies were beautiful for me. 

I guess I was always drawn to the sense of mystery. I believed in the mystery of God's love. Mystery meaning larger than we can imagine, entity or sort of environment where the sacred is manifest for us and in us.  And as a child I just loved going to church. 

Brianne: Do you think that music helped you lean into the contemplative life?
 
 Gregory: Yes, I think it did. Once I began to feel. The ability to write music, having not been trained, but felt I could make melodies, and I could arrange melodies. In the monastery, when we stopped singing in the Latin and needed music for worship, I began to see the potential of taking the words of scripture, the Psalms, David the Psalmist, and New Testament, Old Testament themes, and put them to music, and of course, since we gathered for prayer seven times a day, we had so much need for different themes and texts. So, I just couldn't stop. I don't know what the brothers felt about it, the monks, but I was always coming up with new pieces, while I was there, from 1962 to 83, we did twelve collections of my music and my arranging. I was the soloist, and I was the director. It was just a very powerful experience of being able to pray in language that was authentically from the scriptures, but was sometimes some poetic license was taken to craft the words.

Brianne: And that was after Vatican II.
 
 Gregory: Yes, yes. 
 
 Brianne: Because everything prior to that had been in Latin. 
 
 Gregory: Yes. 
 
 Brianne: So, you are responsible for giving the Christian religious communities English music? 
 
 Gregory: Yes.  I'm not sure of the exact number, but there were.  I'm aware of about five of us in the U.S. at that time who began doing it. And I don't think we knew each other.  There were various groups. There may have been more, but being in a monastery, not getting out and about, there became a great need and music arising from communities around the U. S. and Canada, English speaking countries really. 
 
 Brianne: Are there any experiences that you can remember that you really felt like God was nudging you or leading you in a certain direction?  
 
 Gregory: I had a powerful experience of affirmation. We had heavy snows back then in Vermont in the winter. And I remember one winter evening at around five o'clock, I was walking down a country road. Back to the monastery for Vespers, and we'd had some heavy snows, but there was light. I don't know what the light was from, but it was probably just, you know, dusk or whatever. And then, the narrow country road, the trees were bowing over the road a little bit and moving. And I had this distinct sense that I was walking into the hall of my ancestors.  And the movement of the trees, they were all clapping for me. Powerful. Just very confirming and affirming of being who I was.
 
 Brianne: How many years had you been living as a monk at this point?

Gregory: Well, probably 18 or 19 years. But I have to say that much of my music flowed from an experience of the scriptures. Which moved me to write about it. Something which is known is from one of St. John's writings.  And I was praying it in the New Jerusalem Bible at that time:

Something which is known to have been from the beginning. This we have heard and seen with our own eyes.

I was sitting in a corridor outside my cell, because it was very cold, and I wanted to sit in the early morning sunshine. That whole text I put to music in my mind almost like a chant.  And I said, now I've got to go to the piano and write the rest of it. And the rest of it was Joyous Alleluia.  And that's from one of our recordings, Go Up To The Mountain. And to this day, it's still very powerful.

Brianne: Wow. Yeah, it seems like all of your songs then were probably different experiences that you had at the time, almost overcome with the Holy Spirit in order to write and produce and create those songs. 

Gregory: I guess I felt impelled to write them, but I didn't say to myself, oh, this is a Holy Spirit moment. Yeah. Not self-consciousness. It almost is, I must do it, but I hope it's helpful, you know, sort of thing.

One evening during Holy Week, while I was there, we had just finished the most beautiful Holy Thursday washing of the feet service and Eucharist, and we had to get ready for the next morning very early, which was Good Friday. So while I was walking from the chapel to my music room, the thought came to me:

Journey's ended, journey's begun, to go where we have never been, to be beyond our past. Moments of lifting up, transcending death, rising in transparent light to receive the fullness of God's love. 

And that was about, well, Jesus really had that beautiful experience of that Eucharist, of the gathering with his friends and disciples. But now he's beginning a different journey on Good Friday.  He was going to go to the Garden of Gethsemane, going to be tortured, beaten up, and crucified.  And that of course mirrors something of our lives. We go through various transitions and periods of joy and uplifting and celebration togetherness. And then we have the days that we carry a cross.   
 
 We had our evening Eucharist in the warmer months, in a barn outside the chapel that enabled people to flow out onto  the field and the pasture.  And I had a dear friend there, an elderly woman, who said, “Gregory, I'd like you to meet my house guest, Kathryn Carrington”. 

And she introduced me to her. I had to run off to help with supper soon. So, “Oh, hello, Kathryn”. And we chatted for a while about art and music and spirituality, probably within the context of five minutes.  And then that was it. But we just connected so deeply and wonderfully. It was just joyous. I guess she came back at some other time, and I was away on a retreat somewhere. So, when she came back again, I didn't see her. But then eventually we did get to meet again. And then I had decided to ask for leave of absence, unbeknownst to her that I was going to do that and to me too. But I decided that I needed to have a leave of absence and go back to graduate school.
 
 I went to Chicago to attend the Institute for Spiritual Leadership.  It was a nine-month program, and it was wonderful. So, it was while I was there that I decided, no, I don't think that I want to go back to monastic life. I'd like to be out here where whatever I can do and whoever I am could impact people in a different context who would never get to a monastery for a retreat or get to live a part of their lives that they haven't quite discovered yet, which is their deep spirit. 
 
 So, I spent two years there doing my degree and then another two years we were dating and supporting the airlines because we lived in different sides of the country and then we married in 1987.  
 
 Brianne: Were there any moments where you were transitioning out from monastic life to secular life, that you had moments of feeling lost or confused? 
 
 Gregory: Oh, absolutely, yes. Well, my, part of my transition was moving from, a monastery in the Green Mountains of Vermont, among 12 to 15 monks, and then moving to Chicago. What was for me a very challenging part of the city at that time. And then having to take buses to get into downtown and dealing with the level of noise, of having to be self-protected, because of the environment, of city life, of traffic, there were no, how shall I say it, guideposts or signposts of go here, go there, seek out this person, this experience.

It was just sort of living it. I was living in a seminary, because that's where I was able to get some housing. So, I was surrounded with some wonderful men and women. There were women there too. It wasn't a seminary, it was the Catholic Theological Union, because they had women students, they, couldn’t call it a seminary back then.

And of course, some of the men and women that were there are and became very famous, scholars. And then the young people that they were teaching were friends of mine. So it was very supportive.  I didn't have a lot to do with them 'cause I was busy with my classes elsewhere. 

But it was an environment that had a continuity of community, of friendship, but a lot of silence and angst about who am I, what am I going to do, who wants to hear from me again, how do I make a living? That's probably the biggest thing, is how does one make a living, and my degree was in pastoral counseling, spiritual direction, ultimately.

So, one doesn't just hang up a shingle outside your door somewhere and say, I'm open for business. 

Brianne: You were just on a roll in the monastery with your music. Yes, yes. Very, very productive with your music. When you came out of that, was there a moment where you're like, I can't, I can't write music anymore, or you were having some sort of writer's block? Did you have any of those moments that some people would in a transitional period? 

Gregory: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It was about two years before I wrote music again.

I didn't know if I would ever write music again, and I had some wonderful professors. My spiritual directress, who was a Benedictine nun, Sister Suzanne, was just a wonderful, soulful, deep Benedictine sister who was a guide to me.  During that time and I stayed in touch with her until she passed and visited her regularly in Chicago.

And then I had another professor who was Dr. Marty Thomas who oversaw a project that I had chosen to do as part of my degree work.  And I wanted to address what I was going through by way of asking other people what it was like for them during this time. Many of them were my classmates at this Institute for spiritual leadership, who basically were missionaries from all over the world. And they had burned out in their communities.  They'd been giving so much, and they needed some refreshment. 
 
 Our course that was based on the scriptures, the New Testament particularly, as finding one's way in life is a constant process of conversion. Of converting energy given to negative things and so forth. To try to find positive spiritual energies to contribute good in the world but discover one's ability to deliver that good in the world.  And so that was a powerful project. So I did a video of some of that, some of life around me in Chicago.

I don't know as I did a very good job with it.  But I wrote a theme song called Awaiting Moments, which is on one of my recordings. It was my first post Western Priory recording that I did with OCP Publications. It was beautifully done.
 
 “Waiting moments, tender gestures, lead me to receive forgiveness, your compassion for my broken, wounded life. Now the dawn so softly rises with the vision of a new day being born.” 

And that was my experience, but I had to wait two years. I actually went out and bought a humble piano to encourage myself to get back into writing again. And that was the first piece that I wrote. And that was the beginning of some beautiful music coming forth on the Mountains of My Soul album. 

Brianne: Even me, in my spiritual life, I feel like I have these moments where God is very close and then moments where God is very far away. Did you have any of these moments, and if you did, how do you keep with the spirit and keep your own spirituality amidst spiritually dry moments in your life?

Gregory: I think there are two ways that I probably intuitively address that. I've always been very drawn to the Psalms. David expresses a lot of angst and struggle and pleas for God to help him, not only the Lord is my shepherd type, but also, God, where are you? How can you deal, help me to deal with that?

So I would say, reflecting on some of those, for some quiet in the morning, which was very challenging sometimes to even take the time, to want to take it, because you feel sort of empty, you know? I think it’s that feeling of emptiness is not negativity, but it's a reality. And not to be feared. But it’s a teacher.

Because if there wasn’t any emptiness, we wouldn't seek something more. I think. So, then the other thing that would have helped me would be just having friends. New friends. Some of whom were going through similar things, you know. And eventually it may have taken different paths. So, that’s been a constant. I find that even in our new life here in Michigan, the new people that I'm meeting all the time, whether it's in the store, or a church, or a coffee hour, there’s a kind of support of when one finds a kindred spirit.  And I think that's a gift. 
 
 Brianne: Right. Yeah, that's important to find those and they don't come very often.

Gregory: But, there are days that I don't feel like, and it's easy for me to feel I'm praying and I think that a prayer is not a feeling. I mean, I think we just acknowledge what's going on in our heart as a prayer because the divine hears that and listens. 

Brianne: Yeah. And it's hard to remember that too. Because when you have these moments that it very much is a feeling.  And then moments when there's nothing and you feel so numb. And then, you feel bad, like for me, I feel guilty, like I've done something wrong, or I'm doing something wrong. 

Gregory: Yes, or not doing enough. 
 
 Brianne: Right. Sometimes that makes it feel like God is kind of like, okay, I'm over here now, you're not important anymore. You know? 
 
 Gregory: [Laughter] I'm busy over here. Yeah.
 
 Brianne: So, what do you do today, every day to keep in conversation with God? 

Gregory: I have to make myself sit with my cup of coffee and just be quiet for a minute. It's so tempting to go on the internet and see the news.  And whether it's good or bad, it's, takes away from the opportunity to see how the day is unfolding and who we are and what's going on and what would you like to say to God in prayer.

Sometimes I just sit and pray for other people. Say to God, God, today I want to pray for all the people in this world who have no one to pray for them or who don't know their need or their capacity for you. 
 
 Brianne: Yeah. That's good. Once you got married you decided to organize retreats. 
 
 Gregory: That was after we married. Yes. Yes. Well, initially, I had different jobs after my degree work. While we were courting one of my last employments was to represent a children's charity that worked in Brazil, primarily in the Amazon. The name of the organization is Esperanza. Which means hope in Portuguese and in Spanish.  And I would be their spokesperson in the U. S. and Canada. I did visit the Amazon and got to see first-hand what the mission was about. It was a medical mission. Primary health care, soliciting volunteer surgery programs from the U.S. And in the process of doing that, I had to arrange to go to organizations, especially churches, to give a talk about Esperanza, to ask people to support us, be aware of the need for this tremendous work of compassion and healing in a medical way, in a healthcare way. So, in doing that, after a couple of churches, they said, well, couldn't you come and give us a retreat and a concert? 

And I had not done that before. I was probably more introverted at the Priory than I am now.  And so I had to learn how to be a concert giver and a retreat director. Usually, my programs were going to all the weekend services.  And then a program on Sunday night, Monday night, and Tuesday.

Sometimes during the day, I would go to schools and give talks. Or I would go to hospitals or retirement homes and share some music. When we married, shortly after that, we had moved to Vermont.  And eventually it was decided that I would seek full time retreat work and I was just so busy for many years.

Sometimes three weeks out of the month. And that, kept going until, around sixty-five, I might have slowed down, but we began a retreat program called Hosea Mountain Retreats as a way of keeping me home more.  And we had maybe, initially, four to five retreats a summer and fall at this wonderful Vermont country inn near Weston Priory, in southern Vermont.  It was basically a humble inn where people stayed for skiing. It was sort of closed down in the summer. We had the idea of having the programs there. So, they worked out a budget from their side of the cost to them that they would need to charge our retreatants for food and lodging.

And then we charged separately a retreat fee. And people came from all over the U. S. and Canada. We had a Hosea newsletter back then. So that helped us to publicize our calendar and events.  And I was beginning to record again. So, we did that for about 30 years. It was wonderful. It was this wonderful community.
 
 Brianne: And were you able to make a living doing that?

Gregory: Yes. Fortunately, my publisher helped publish my calendar, which advertised, the events. I was one of them, back then I was one of their most prolific retreat givers because many composers weren't yet giving retreats to the extent that I was. The publisher published an article that went to all the churches, not necessarily only Roman Catholic in the U.S. said, “whatever happened to Gregory Norbet”?  Because I would seemingly have dropped out of existence leaving the monastery. And then four years later, where is he? What's he doing? So that just made my work more in demand. And then Kathryn's paintings, her icons, her paintings. And we had other things. We had some prayers set in calligraphy by a famous calligrapher, Robert Palladino, who's deceased now but well known.

It was someone we knew in Oregon.  And we called them original blessings and we matted them and sold them at my concerts along with CDs and Kathryn's icon prints. So, we had a lot of chutzpah. We had to. We knew we could do it. We were very creative, and we had a business sense, and we had a sense of what people could use. If someone came to a concert and bought one of these beautiful prints for $15.00. They made beautiful birthday gifts, baptismal gifts, wedding anniversary gifts and all sorts of things. We sort of brought [the inn] back to life. We had some wonderful times with some well-known speakers who joined us too.  We had several sessions of conferences that I led using my music to talk about various aspects of our life, compassion, healing, forgiveness, following, rejoicing, celebrating, so it was very wonderful to be able to do that.

And it was not in the context of a formal retreat house, or religious entity, people loved it. It was an old New England inn, and eventually they built a big barn for us. And now they have been doing their own retreats for years for artists and writers. It's become very popular. And the food was fabulous. It was gourmet food. And it's just so welcoming and down to earth, you know? 
 
 Brianne: Yeah, that's nice. Sounds cozy. 
 
 Gregory: I'm 84 and then one of the things that I miss, my heart still wants to give retreats. My body is tired. Usually for a retreat what I would do would be about a 45-minute presentation.  And then, give people some quiet time. To do what they wanted to do, to either pray or write or be or think or listen and walk. Then come back again for another session and then maybe lunch. So, it's rather easy going in one sense. But I use my music to stimulate my conversation about the topic that we want to address. So, people have the music before them, the lyrics, and they can reflect on that, they can journal from it, they can sing them, they can be quiet, and take it home with them. 

Brianne: What was your favorite part of giving those retreats, or hosting them? 
 
 Gregory: Well, when we had them at the Hosea retreats, Kathryn had worked designing a prayer service for the Saturday evening, in which it wasn't a conference, but we had, in this barn, we had lots of candles. Initially we had it in an old church without electricity.

Candles and icon prints all around, surrounding people. And then, that with music.  And then at the end of the service, we would arrange to invite people to come and receive some oil, a fragrant oil, as they do in other cultures and faith traditions. And do what we would call an anointing in the hands.

 Receive this anointing as a sign of God's love and compassion for you and all that you hold dear.  
 
And, that combined with the atmosphere, the sense of the sacred presence that we were standing in with the icons, the candles, and the music, and the fragrant oil, and the prayer. 

All of us were, even me, just so touched to be a part of that.  And of course, take that anointing home with you, you know, and be that for others. 
 
 Brianne: You feel like you would still love to do retreats. What is it that makes you want to do that? 

Gregory: I see the need for it in people's lives. I see the lack of it in ordinary life.  And even in organized church life, there's not a lot of opportunity for people to either go away or know where something like that is available.  And I know some people at our church who over the years have had lots of opportunities they've taken, whether it be Corsilla or whatever tradition they come from.

But they've had opportunities to go away and have some experience of really faith deepening. It's just more than going to a service on Sunday.  You know, so that's, I see, I just want to feed people. I've been so blessed. I'd like to pass along as much as I can for as long as I can.

 I'm an older person now, and I recognize more clearly what I don't know, as well as what I do know. And sometimes when we're younger and trying to be in that role, we're very aware of what we know. We want to pass it along. When we get older, we say, well, I’ve learned a lot, but there's a lot I have yet to learn. So, and I think there's a hunger for it.

The circumstances in our world now that are terrible and tragic, what do we do with that in ourselves if we can't do anything about it? Well, sometimes all we can do is just pray and ask for healing and greater good in people's lives. And one of the ways that we can address that is by deepening our own groundedness in God's love for us and for all people. 

Brianne: Is there one, verse or bible story that you love that's always stuck with you or do you have many of them? 
 
 Gregory: Well, I'm afraid I have over 400 published pieces, but I'd have to say there are some that really stand out.

When peace shall flourish, and justice thrive, and we embody heart of the Christ, then shall our faith be real, our love be that of God, we shall become who we say we are.

I'm grateful to have this opportunity and I hope that the work that you're doing in reaching people, that it's a way of helping them define the greater sense of their worth, the greater sense of the pearl of great price within.  And that's the treasure that can fuel us through some pretty dark days and give us some pretty wonderful ones to celebrate as well.

Outro:

Thank you for joining me on Loving the Imperfect. Again, you can learn more about Gregory by visiting his website at www.GregoryNorbet.org

Next time, we'll hear from Kenny Asewe, the founder of At Home Music here in Rochester. He's going to tell us about his mother's funeral in Kenya. She was like a living saint, a holy person. He's going to tell us the story of her death and her funeral. 

I think it's a good time to tell stories to remember our mothers because Mary is a very, important figure for Christians. So, as we're in Advent now, we are waiting for the birth of Jesus. We can think and meditate on the sacrifices Mary made, so I thought this was an appropriate story to tell for this time of year, and I hope you enjoy it.

I'll see you next time. Bye bye.