Episode 1: Dr. Gina Rendon, DVM

In this podcast episode, Kristiina interviews Dr. Gina Rendon, a veterinarian, about her journey to becoming a vet and the challenges and burnout in the veterinary profession. They discuss the importance of balancing the emotional demands of working with sick animals and how Dr. Rendon unwinds and de-stresses from work. They also talk about breed-specific personalities in cats and common misconceptions about cats and veterinary medicine. The episode concludes with a discussion on medical conditions that can affect a cat's behavior and the importance of regular check-ups and insurance for cats. This part of the conversation covers topics such as monitoring cat behavior, recognizing pain and discomfort, advancements in treatment for pain and arthritis, behavioral issues and medication, recent advancements in veterinary behavior, the importance of cat care and socialization, tips for getting cats into carriers, treating cat travel anxiety and car sickness, homeopathic and herbal care for cats, clipping indoor cat's nails, coping with nightmares in blind cats, and a grieving cat's obsession with brushing. In this conversation, Kristiina and Gina discuss various topics related to pet care and veterinary medicine. They explore the importance of bonding activities and stimulation for pets, such as brushing and environmental enrichment. They also delve into the topic of grief and how veterinarians cope with it. Overall, the conversation highlights the significance of providing love and care to pets and the emotional challenges that come with it.

Transcript

Kristiina (00:48)
Oh, first of all, I guess I have to introduce you. This is so weird. I feel like so actor -y and weird and I hate it. I hate it. Like, okay, how am I going to...

Gina Rendon (00:48)
Okay.

don't you first you first you have to say this is the cat pot, you know, have to you do your introduction and I am and you are.

Kristiina (01:02)
Oh.

Can't like AI do this part for

We're just making an hour -long blooper reel of like, I don't know what I'm doing. Okay.

Gina Rendon (01:11)
Yeah, that's right.

Kristiina (01:15)
Welcome to Hits and Tells. Today's guest is Dr. Gina Rendon, my favorite and best and smartest veterinarian in the whole world. That doesn't make any sense. You can't be my favorite, best, smartest veterinarian in the whole world, but that's what you are. She works at Williamsburg Vet Clinic in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, New York, USA, World, Universe, et cetera. And she's here to talk to us today about all things cats. So hi, Dr. Rendon.

Gina Rendon (01:35)
I'm sorry.

Hi, hello Kristiina You can call me Gina. Yeah, call me Gina.

Kristiina (01:44)
Okay, thanks.

So Gina, why don't you tell us a little bit about your journey towards becoming a veterinarian?

Gina Rendon (01:49)
Yes.

Ooh, my journey. See, this is, you gave me questions that I had kind of prepared for and I didn't prepare for this stuff, but my journey, my journey actually wasn't as straightforward as some journeys are. You know, I know a lot of people, a lot of veterinarians knew they wanted to be veterinarians when they were born. And I always loved, loved, loved animals, but I actually,

Kristiina (02:00)
Right. We'll just.

Gina Rendon (02:20)
didn't go to school until a little bit later. So not until I was in my twenties that I go back, go to college. And so I went to college and I was very interested in learning about neuroscience actually. And so I studied biology and got a minor in neuroscience. And so after I finished college, I then went to graduate school doing a neuroscience type of a thing, but I really did not want to do.

Kristiina (02:26)
Mm -hmm.

Gina Rendon (02:48)
any animal research. And so I got into a human lab that studied memory and did that for a little while, but then realized as I was on that track that I really did not like doing research. And so I hated doing statistics. Math is awful. And so that's, I hate statistics. So that after doing, yeah, so after I, well, you know, it just seemed.

Kristiina (03:05)
statistics. I get it.

Gina Rendon (03:13)
It seems like you're just making little tiny incremental changes, you know, to somebody's research. It just wasn't my thing. And so kind of after some soul searching, I realized what I really wanted to do. What I always wanted to do was work with animals. And so I decided to go to vet school. And so I didn't actually go to vet school until I was in my thirties, but, um, it was definitely the right choice because I love it. I being a vet.

Kristiina (03:19)
Yeah.

yes.

Gina Rendon (03:37)
Full disclosure, now I've been a vet for 20 years and again, I knew it was the right choice because I still love it.

Kristiina (03:46)
Yeah, and I have to say that you're like one of the very few vets that I have known and worked with for the past like...

Gina Rendon (03:48)
Thank you.

Thank you.

Kristiina (03:55)
I guess I don't think I've known you for 20 years, but once I started going to a certain vet in the East Village, most of those other vets that I loved and worked with, aside from one who I know is working with you at your practice now, have all either left the business entirely or gone on to do very different, although still animal associated things because the burnout is so real in the industry. can you speak to that a little bit or not really?

Gina Rendon (03:58)
So thank you.

Thank you.

Hehehe.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kristiina (04:23)
because your experience is so different because I know you are the head of your clinic.

Gina Rendon (04:27)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's obviously it's different for everybody. I think for a long time, there was very much kind of a martyr approach to veterinary medicine. As far as the professions go, it's paid much less than some of the other professions. So paid much less than human doctors, much less than dentists.

And so for the amount of work that you're doing, which is just as much, and for the amount of caring that you're doing, the financial incentive is not huge. And so I think that that ends up being a little bit of it, that you feel like you're working and working and you're putting so much emotional investment into everything that you do that it really, I think that's what leads to burnout. You know, not to mention that our patients, you know, the lifespan of an average dog and cat are,

Kristiina (05:13)
Right.

Gina Rendon (05:23)
It's short, you know, so, you know, you're not looking at decades of care. You're looking often at, you know, 10 to 15 years, if you're lucky. And I think that also really impacts the profession. It's really hard. There was the question about grief, which I thought was a very good question. And I think a lot of vets have to deal with that. And then, you know, the other aspect of it, I think for, for not necessarily on my case, but a lot of people are.

Kristiina (05:41)
Yeah.

Gina Rendon (05:53)
animal lovers and not necessarily human lovers. And so you always have to deal with a human when you're dealing with a pet, you know, somebody's beloved animal. And so I think for some people it's not, they don't realize that you have to have that, that relationship as well. And I don't think that's as easy for everybody. So yeah.

Kristiina (05:57)
Well, yeah.

I totally understand. I guess I never thought about that, of course, in the veterinary profession, but doing behavior stuff and especially doing rescue stuff, we run into that so often that people who are drawn to work with animals often, and I'm not going to say this is in every case, obviously, but often are drawn to work with animals because they have some kind of trauma in their background that makes them less interested in working with people, but still wanting to work in a healing kind of profession.

Gina Rendon (06:25)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Kristiina (06:44)
or job and often that trauma is unaddressed and therefore it makes it very difficult for them to deal with people even though even working in rescue we have to work with other people we have to collaborate with other rescuers and it very often becomes

Gina Rendon (06:45)
Right, right.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kristiina (07:02)
difficult in terms of interpersonal, yeah interpersonal stuff. There's a lot of drama, there's a lot of infighting, which gets so goofy because really we're just all trying to work towards the same goal and I think it's just there's so much trauma that comes out that I really wish there was a course for like hey do you love animals? Here's how to work with people. Here's how to get what you need done.

Gina Rendon (07:03)
Yeah, it's challenging.

Mm -hmm.

Right.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think that that is that that's now being recognized more. And so in terms of professional development, those types of classes are being offered a lot more to younger graduates, much more than when I, you know, came out, there was nothing like that. But now I think that's definitely the direction, which is really nice. And I think it's easier for the younger vets to just learn how to communicate because that's that really is the hardest part. So, yeah.

Kristiina (07:39)
Right.

Right.

I agree and I think younger generations obviously have less stigma around therapy and less stigma around processing whatever their issues are and they're more open communicators. And I do think it's more of a problem of our generation and the generations before that, that I see a lot of that. And when I work even up here in Connecticut, it's been wherever I work, especially doing like feral and rescue and trapping stuff that there's just such interpersonal drama. It gets bonkers. It gets so bonkers and it's really sad. But I guess I know.

Gina Rendon (07:58)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kristiina (08:22)
never really thought about the spillover that would go into veterinary care as well with those kinds of issues. So another question that I had is that, and I kind of piggybacks off what you just said, was like how do you balance the emotional demands of working with sick or injured animals while still providing such excellent care? Like how do you do compartmentalize that? Like how do you handle that?

Gina Rendon (08:26)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of compartmentalization. I mean, I think that's one of the things that you end up having to learn how to do because in the course of a day where you're seeing appointments, you may end up doing something like a euthanasia and then have to go right into your next appointment after that. And you can't obviously go into your next appointment weeping, which a lot of, you know, a lot of us feel like, you know, you have to kind of take a minute, but.

Kristiina (09:04)
Right.

Yeah.

Gina Rendon (09:12)
Um, you know, for me, the way I deal with it is I think about how many animals I have helped. You know, I've seen, luckily, you know, I'll see patients that really are not doing well. And I've had enough cases that I've been able to turn around and see them doing really well and kind of exceeding expectations enough that it keeps me going. You know, obviously there are the cases that don't do as well. Um,

And you know, you lose patience and it's hard, but I think the other motivating factor is that a lot of the people, I mean, most of the people that you work with, they're doing things out of love for their animals. And that's what I find really sustaining is just supporting that bond between people and their animals, you know, because I know how much I love mine. I know how much they mean to me and being able to see how that's true for other people is really.

Kristiina (10:05)
Yeah.

Gina Rendon (10:11)
you know, a big motivating factor for me.

Kristiina (10:14)
Sure.

But is there a cat and we're going to just focus on cats because this is a cat podcast. But can you tell me about a cat or cats that have made like a lasting impression on you personally, like through their personality or circumstances or resilience or like at whatever in your practice?

Gina Rendon (10:18)
Sure.

Kristiina (10:30)
you don't have to say any of our cats. No.

Gina Rendon (10:31)
I Steve does, you know. Steve definitely stood out as such a personality, such a big personality. And the nice thing is that he's not the only cat that has stood out as having this really great personality. He was always a little tricky because here he's gave me a hard time. Well, he was...

Kristiina (10:51)
He was the worst. He was the worst. You can say it. He was the worst at the vet. Like...

Gina Rendon (10:58)
He wasn't a happy patient, but he was always happy, which is kind of funny. No, never, never. He was very opinionated about everything. Yeah. There have been actually, you know, many cats that have that same, just amazing personality. And I can't think of any specific one, you know, other than Steve, but I think of my own kitties, you know, the ones that I've...

Kristiina (11:02)
No.

Yeah, I mean, he wasn't trying to hurt anybody. He just disagreed with everything that was... Yeah.

Yeah.

Gina Rendon (11:27)
owned and the ones that I have just loved so much have had such huge personalities. And you know, the interesting thing to me is about cats is I kind of feel like cats can be somewhat predictable in the things that they like, you know, the things that they do, but their personalities are always so distinct. And, you know, just from my own experience with my various kitties, they were so different in every way that that's kind of, you know, one of the joys of them. They're, they're fun.

Kristiina (11:56)
Yeah, absolutely.

Gina Rendon (11:57)
Yeah.

Kristiina (11:58)
I feel like Steve's people would love to know because they always are asking questions like this is have you noticed a pattern in terms of breed specific personalities

Gina Rendon (12:08)
Um, the funny thing is that the different clinics that I've worked at, each clinic will have a certain story about a certain breed, which I find really funny. And then you go to the next clinic. So for example, you know, that calicoes are really mean and nasty. I think, and that's not, you know, that they're, they're harder to handle because they are so opinionated. So, you know, calicoes have a certain personality. Orange cats are always really laid back.

Kristiina (12:19)
Yeah.

Right.

Gina Rendon (12:35)
And that's actually kind of true. I feel like orange cats do tend to be a little bit more laid back, but, um, and, uh, the, the, um, sphinxes tend to be dog -like, you know, they're very funny. They're very, um, social and personable. And I've definitely found that to be true. So yeah, there, I think there are some breed, um, specific personality traits, but then again, you know, like I said, I always feel like.

when you really get to know them, their personalities are very, very distinct. So yeah, yeah.

Kristiina (13:04)
distinct. Yeah. So do you think a lot of that is just confirmation bias? Cause I had to do an interview with the wildest I think it was recently about like orange cat behavior. You know, there's this, it's a whole thing now on Tik Tok and Instagram that everyone's like, look at my doofus orange cat.

Gina Rendon (13:15)
Uh -huh.

Kristiina (13:19)
But I do think there's such a confirmation bias that like, of course, when you see orange cat behavior, you notice it and note it as orange cat rather than like noticing that in your other cat.

Gina Rendon (13:19)
right, right.

Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, right. Yeah.

Kristiina (13:30)
that are also being stupid. Yeah, just just to explain confirmation bias, although I'm sure everybody knows what confirmation bias is. So how do you like unwind or de -stress out of work? Like can you, you know, considering how stressful your job is?

Gina Rendon (13:32)
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that's definitely true.

Hahaha!

Yeah. I mean, for me, I, I, I work out regularly. So, you know, I run and I swim and I do find that that is really important for me. That if I don't get in some time where I'm doing something aerobic, where I can just kind of not think about things and just let that, that tension off that, you know, then I can, that's when I really start to feel the anxiety. So for me, that's a big anxiety.

Kristiina (14:05)
Right.

Gina Rendon (14:18)
But otherwise, you know, just hanging out with the people I love, reading books, watching movies, you know, spending time with my little dog, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Kristiina (14:26)
Yeah, that's good.

what are some misconceptions about cats or veterinary medicine that you would want to address or clarify for people? Are there any? I know this is also kind of like a doozy of a question. Yeah.

Gina Rendon (14:38)
Misperceptions about cats. I think the biggest misperception is that if they're acting like everything is normal, that they are normal. I think the biggest thing is making sure that they're being checked regularly because they will definitely not show you if they're sick until they're really sick. And so that's one big doozy. And then what was the other part of that question?

Kristiina (15:06)
Oh, and just misconceptions about veterinary medicine. But before you even answer that, can you tell everybody how often cats should be checked through their ages? Because I know when they get more senior, they should be checked more often.

Gina Rendon (15:09)
Oh.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Uh huh. Yeah. The kittens have to go through a kitten series. So usually we're seeing them every two to four weeks until they're about 16 weeks old. Um, so that one's easy and kittens, you know, they will definitely have their various things early. As you have known, you know, um, they can have upper respiratory infections. They can get, um, uh, you know, skin things. So you're kind of dealing with things a little bit early GI things.

But a healthy kitten or a healthy adult cat once a year is typically enough And you know, the amazing thing is that a lot of cats aren't seen once a year It's usually people will kind of wait five years or you know, ten years Which you know, no blame on anybody's part I think it is that thing that they're going along and doing fine and time passes and it's really easy to kind of let that go but

Kristiina (16:02)
Right.

Gina Rendon (16:16)
Being able to see a cat regularly on a yearly basis, keep track of their weight, keep track of their blood work. It's really nice to be able to follow blood work over time because you will start to see trends that can give you an idea that something is happening. But then once they reach their mature years, once they become geriatric. And so for cats, I kind of think of that as around 10 -ish. For dogs, it's earlier, but for cats, they can live definitely longer.

Kristiina (16:26)
Mm -hmm.

Gina Rendon (16:44)
But around then I recommend every six months. And I think, you know, people don't realize it, but because they age faster than we do, things do actually start to develop faster than they do for us. And so, you know, if you think about like a year in the life of a cat, that's like several years in our life. And so things really can change pretty quickly. So it's good to keep an eye on things.

Kristiina (17:07)
That's a really good point and something I never thought of. Do you notice any correlation, and I don't know if you even have these data in your practice, between people who have insurance bringing their pets in more regularly versus people who don't have insurance? Like if having insurance is helpful to people, if it makes it more cost effective to bring their pets in on a regular basis?

Gina Rendon (17:16)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah. You know, I always, it's always great when people have insurance and it seems that cat, um, people have insurance less often than, um, than dog people do, which I think is interesting. But, um, I do think that the people who end up getting insurance tend to be more, um, you know, they, they, they get to the vet pretty regularly.

And I, you know, I think it may be just a personality thing. You know, if you're worried enough that you're going to get insurance, then you're also worried enough that you're going to bring your pet in regularly. Um, and so, yeah. So I, you know, and I think the, and I don't know the actual statistics of, you know, whether those animals, um, you know, how they fare compared to those that don't have insurance, but I do know that the animals that are seen regularly, that you can catch things earlier.

Kristiina (17:55)
Yeah.

fair.

Gina Rendon (18:25)
and then manage a disease at its earlier state rather than having to wait until something is full -blown and an animal is compromised. So, yeah.

Kristiina (18:34)
That would actually be an interesting study to do to just like look at data or even do like a citizen science thing to look at people like who has insurance on their cats and who doesn't and how frequently are you taking your cat to the vet? Although I do think it would be similar to like who comes to see me and my behavior practice that people self select, right? Into the pile of who is very observant, who is on, I don't want to say like on the ball, but who is going every year for their yearly, like you said, like if you have

Gina Rendon (18:41)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Right, yeah, yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Right.

Kristiina (19:04)
you're probably already like very much like, oh it's been a year I've got to take in so -and -so further rabies, FELV, like all the stuff that we have to do, but also then to see how does that animal progress over like a long period of time in terms of their health and how do you both sides kind of end up.

Gina Rendon (19:07)
We better do this. Uh huh. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Right, yeah, yeah.

Kristiina (19:25)
I don't know, because generally I see people who either are extremely observant or now their cat is peeing on everything and it's like, oh, I've tolerated this for 15 years, but now I'm gonna come talk to you. Right? Yeah, so it's interesting.

Gina Rendon (19:34)
You

Yeah, two. Yeah, yeah. My cat has been vomiting for, yeah, for, for two months, but right now I need to come in on emergency. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Me too. Yeah.

Kristiina (19:45)
Yeah. Yes, yes. That's always very interesting to me. Yes. So that kind of leads us into what are some common medical conditions or illnesses that would affect a cat's behavior.

Gina Rendon (19:55)
Thank you.

that would affect their behavior, everything affects their behavior. Cats are full, crazy behavior for various reasons. Actually, it's interesting to me because I feel like one of the things that people really should observe with their cats is behavior. And so sometimes something really, really subtle, like a cat starts sleeping in a different place, not necessarily that there's any vomiting, there's any diarrhea, there's...

Kristiina (20:02)
Yes, or, yeah.

Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Gina Rendon (20:24)
Just all of a sudden there's a change in their routine. That can be an indicator for a cat that something is going on. So cats are subtle like that, like I said, but as far as common diseases in cats, it's pretty much anything that can affect humans. The most common diseases we see in young cats would be, like I said, the upper respiratory infections.

Kristiina (20:27)
Yes.

Gina Rendon (20:49)
Um, which they all seem to be exposed to viruses early on. And so then a lot of them will harbor, um, Khaleesi or herpes or some long -term virus that lays dormant. And then some stressful event will, will make those viruses reactivate. Um, and so you can see recurrent episodes of things like upper respiratory infections, but we also see, I think we're seeing more these days is our allergies, you know, just because, um, last.

Summer we had the wildfire issues, you know, the air quality is so poor and cats are so sensitive to air quality. And so we see a lot of asthma, a lot of skin allergies, itching, and that can be either environmental allergies, it can be food allergies. In older cats, the things that we see are unfortunately kidney disease in cats, which I think is, you know, I don't.

Kristiina (21:20)
Mm -hmm.

Gina Rendon (21:46)
I we really know specifically why, but I kind of feel like it may be just the way cats hydrate. They're not really always so great at hydrating. And I think sometimes that makes their kidneys a little bit more fragile. But then also cats can get hyperthyroid diseases. They get older. Diabetes is not uncommon. And then there are like the lifestyle, you know, obesity obviously is common in cats that are not very active.

Kristiina (21:54)
Mm -mm.

Right.

Gina Rendon (22:17)
older cats and actually for older animals in general, dogs and cats, the leading cause of death.

is cancer. And so obviously that's another one that early detection can be really helpful if you can, you know, find things before they progress.

Kristiina (22:35)
Yeah, and to speak to your beginning point of this particular question about what are some signs, behavioral changes, and you mentioned sleeping in a different place. That was the first thing I noticed with Steve that something was off, that he always slept with us and he started sleeping on the couch in the TV room. And I do know that our cats will change sleeping places seasonally, right? In the summer, they'll go sleep somewhere that's cooler. In the winter, they're more apt to, or more,

Gina Rendon (22:48)
Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

We're here. We're here.

Okay.

Kristiina (23:05)
They're more apt to sleep with us in the bed, but this wasn't a seasonal change and it was just struck me somehow. I was like that something isn't right, you know, and that's when his breath started smelling funny. And then that's when everything happened with his squamous cell carcinoma. But that was the first sign and I can see how it would be very easy for someone who is not super paranoid. As you know, I am to to just be like, oh, he's just sleeping on the get like, that's okay. He just wants some alone time, like whatever. But I still.

Gina Rendon (23:14)
Mm -hmm.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Right.

Yah, yah.

Kristiina (23:35)
and a new new spot for sleeping is such I think such a big sign that anytime I see any of our cats go sleep in a carrier even though they love their carriers because they're all carrier trains like I'm always like oh no and if it goes on for more than a day I get really concerned.

Gina Rendon (23:40)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I think that's something that you were talking about, people who are observant versus people who are not. And I think it's so important to get used to what your cat's behavior is like, to familiarize yourself or really just pay attention to the details of their life, because it does tell you so much, like how much are they drinking? How much are they eating? Where are they sleeping? What is their routine? Because those little shifts can really...

Kristiina (24:09)
Yeah.

All right.

Gina Rendon (24:20)
be an indicator of something. It's interesting to me how many times I'll talk to somebody about, you know, I'll ask about water intake and somebody won't have even really noticed. And then it turns out the cat is diabetic. And if they're diabetic, they're drinking like mad. So it's like so much water. So, you know, I do, it is a good idea to just really pay attention because cats are hard.

Kristiina (24:35)
So much water, yeah.

I agree. And to that end, I, you know, that I love to have cameras all over our house, our houses as, as my wife likes to say, it's like living in a surveillance state, but at, you know, at cat level, um, they are, I just put up like four more the other day, cause now we have, um, our newest cat out and about. And so I just want to make sure everything's good. But also I really think on that list should be, especially if you have more than one cat, but even if you just have one cat to monitor their restroom behavior, right. Um, and if,

Gina Rendon (24:49)
Yes

Hahaha.

Uh -huh.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Kristiina (25:14)
If you just have one cat, you don't necessarily need a camera because you know everything that's in the boxes from that cat. But because we have 11 cats and we have multiple different toileting areas, there is a camera in front of each toileting area so that every night as I'm in bed, I can go through and make sure, oh, uncle dad went to the bathroom three times. That's his average. Because I also ran statistics because I'm a crazy person and I know who goes to the bathroom on average this many times. Like who goes and that's how I've caught kitten man being blocked. I've

Gina Rendon (25:20)
Uh huh. Yeah.

Uh huh, yeah.

We're here.

Kristiina (25:44)
caught you know multiple times things that I wouldn't have noticed otherwise because I'm not following them around all day to see what they're doing and it's it's very helpful but again I'm also paranoid but I do really also recommend to people that they keep an eye on that because especially a blocked male cat will go downhill super quickly.

Gina Rendon (25:44)
Right. Yep.

Right, right. Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think your point about multiple cats, um, it really does get complicated when there's more than one cat. And we've definitely seen that where, you know, you'll ask somebody, are they using the litter box and somebody is using the litter box, but they don't know who. And that, so then that, you know, just adds to the mystery of what's going on.

Kristiina (26:22)
Right.

Yeah, I really wish and I've been trying to talk to companies for a bit about making something that's like a litter robot that would have either a face recognition or an RFID chip in it that would scan either the cat's microchip that's in their neck if you've had the microchips or just an RFID tag on their collar so that whenever a cat entered the litter box, it would note who went in, how long they were in there, what time, you know, and what time they came out. So they, and then it would send you a little stats log.

Gina Rendon (26:39)
Thank you.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Kristiina (26:56)
at the end of the day, sort of like those sure pet bulls do. I think a combination of sure pet and litter robot would be amazing. So that at the end of the day, I wouldn't be going through four cameras feeds for 24 hours. I could just look at this report and be like, oh look, uncle dad went to the bathroom three times, kitten man went twice, that's normal. Oh, but look, Babby went seven times, something's wrong, let's take her to the vet, right? It would be so helpful.

Gina Rendon (27:01)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Right. Right. Uh huh. So yeah.

Yeah, something's up. Right. Right.

Kristiina (27:23)
I really want someone to come up with this. Please, if any company is listening to this, please make this. I will pay any amount of money for these litter boxes so I can stop looking at cats going to the bathroom on video. Please help me.

Gina Rendon (27:25)
hahahaha

Kristiina (27:38)
another question that I have for you is, can pain or discomfort affect a cat's behavior and like what signs should pet owners look out for? And I know I've tried to teach people about the feline grimace scale and things like that, but I'm sure there's like things that you can add or just speak to that question in general.

Gina Rendon (27:46)
Uh huh.

Um, it's interesting because again, going back to the fact that cats are so good at hiding when something is going on. Um, and I think that again, being able to observe, like you said, I don't know that everybody is as good at kind of looking and seeing, is there a grimace? Is there a change in the, and you know, how their facial tension is, but, um, sometimes it can be really subtle. So, you know, obviously like a,

Kristiina (28:01)
Great.

Gina Rendon (28:24)
brained leg, a cat limping, that can be really easy to see. But sometimes it is something as subtle as they're sleeping a lot more. And so, you know, whereas they would have a routine where, you know, this is the time of the day where they go chase after whatever, or they go play, they go do whatever, go check on the window. When they're not doing that, and if they're, if they're just staying in one position, that can be a sign of pain. Interestingly, cats will do a lot of self grooming when they're in pain. So, um,

Kristiina (28:27)
Right.

Gina Rendon (28:54)
You know, licking their abdomen if they actually have bladder pain is not uncommon, or if they have GI pain. So sometimes you'll think it's allergies and it actually is discomfort. So those are things to look for. And then of course, appetite, if they're not eating, then that can be a sign that things are off. So they can be really subtle signs. And so again, so important to just be able to kind of keep track of how they normally behave. Cause just a tiny.

Kristiina (29:14)
Right.

Gina Rendon (29:22)
change can be a big indicator.

Kristiina (29:24)
I totally agree and I just want to share anecdotally something that happened in our house recently is that you know Kevin and Kitten Man have both been really grieving Steve's death and so they've both been on Fluoxetine which is Prozac for cats and that has been really helpful but then like a month and a half ago Kevin started kind of aggressing towards Kitten Man again and I was like what the heck like what's going on but we've had all these foster cats in the house so it's like maybe it's just the stress from all these additional animals that aren't out in the house but the

Gina Rendon (29:36)
Thank you. Thank you.

Hmm.

Okay.

Uh -huh.

Kristiina (29:54)
they can smell them and that's you know probably not helping contributing all these extra cat smells in the house but it was time for his yearly checkup anyway so I took him in to the vet here and it turns out that and I was thinking maybe we need to increase his floxatine he's on like a very low dose and it turns out his stomatitis has inflamed his mouth again and his mouth was really really red and so we've upped his

Gina Rendon (30:00)
Okay.

Okay. Okay.

Ah, mm -hmm.

Kristiina (30:21)
his steroid, his pred, we upped his pred and then I'm also giving him a little bit of gaba in the morning like just 50 whereas he you know he's such a big boy he could take 200 and probably wouldn't even notice it but he's he's back to his happy self he's no longer being aggressive and it was coming I think from pain like his mouth was painful.

Gina Rendon (30:21)
His pred? Uh huh.

OK.

Right, right, right, I'm sure.

Oh, good. Yeah, yeah.

Kristiina (30:42)
And so that aggression was a sign that I didn't think of as coming from pain. I thought that it was coming from emotion. And so it was an important lesson for me to learn that I need to also think of possible medical drivers, even though he seemed perfectly healthy. So.

Gina Rendon (30:51)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because aggression is actually a really, you know, people who pet their cats on a regular basis and they love them. And then all of a sudden the cat is now turning around and swatting them, you know, which can be, you know, it hurts your feeling. You think you've done something, but that's a really, I think a big flag. Is there something that's going on? Is there arthritis? Is there, you know,

Kristiina (31:22)
Yeah.

Gina Rendon (31:26)
some other pain. So that would definitely be a change in aggressive level, I think is a really good one. Yeah. Oh, other things I guess I should also mention with older cats, because I think this is something that people also don't really think about is their agility. Cats tend to be pretty agile, pretty late in life. But sometimes you'll see cats that as they stop jumping onto things, people don't really think of it.

Kristiina (31:28)
Right.

Yeah. And speaking of.

Gina Rendon (31:53)
as being a pain thing, they think of it as, oh, they're just getting older. And arthritis obviously is something in cats that's been unrecognized for a really long time. And I think only more recently in the past several years has it really been focused on. And so, you know, just because your cat still is pretty flexible doesn't mean that they're not, they're not developing arthritis. So another thing to remember. Yeah.

Kristiina (32:16)
Right. Can you speak a little bit about the advancements and treatment for that like Solencia and

Gina Rendon (32:19)
Thank you.

you know, I'm still not thrilled with the options for cats. There's still not a lot of great options because they are more sensitive. There still are the, the, um, nonsteroidal anti -inflammatories on the market. So, Meloxicam, um, is an ed, and said that has, there's a lot of controversy.

Kristiina (32:30)
Yeah.

Gina Rendon (32:42)
And I think a lot of that controversy is because of how it was originally used, which was in really high doses and really impacting kidney function and these cats that were on it. But something that can still be a really excellent pain option for cats if you use it right. So there's, there's, Moxicam or Onsior Onsior is harder because you don't get, you know, it's like pills in threes. You can't get more than that. It's not a bottle full, but.

Kristiina (33:10)
Right.

Gina Rendon (33:11)
Solensia is a nice option. Have you, have you had any experience with it? Have any of your cats had it? Yeah. Yeah. The nice thing about the salencia is that it's so safe. It's a monoclonal antibody that targets a nerve growth factor, which is what causes pain and arthritis. And so it specifically targets that it's not metabolized through the liver or the kidneys. It tends to be very safe.

Kristiina (33:18)
about it.

Gina Rendon (33:37)
It seems that you have to use it more frequently to see the full blown effects. So one shot's probably not going to do it. You just have to do it on a monthly basis. And for people that know it's an injectable that's once a month. The nice thing is that there's not a downside to it. My clinic participated in a trial where we had cats enrolled to get repeated injections.

And I would say almost all of them improved, but not all of them did. So there's, there is a subset of cats that won't improve with that. And then antinol is a, um, a very concentrated fatty acid, um, that's made from greenlit muscle, which cats tend to, um, process that better as an anti -inflammatory than they do the glucosamines. So glucosamines don't tend to be that effective in cats. Um, but.

Kristiina (34:10)
Right.

Gina Rendon (34:33)
But omega fatty acids tend to be really good and that's a really good one.

Kristiina (34:37)
Yeah, I've had Mimi on that for the past few months and she is tearing it up around the house.

Gina Rendon (34:42)
the nice thing is that it's also good for skin health, heart health. Like there's no downside to it, you know, and it's such an easy little thing to give. So I really liked that product. Yeah.

Kristiina (34:45)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, well easy as if pilling a cat is easy.

I think we talked about like, are there recent advancements or treatments in veterinary behavior that might benefit cats with behavioral issues?

Gina Rendon (35:06)
Um, that's a good question. I think you should know the answer to that as a behaviorist. Do you have anything to tell me?

Kristiina (35:12)
I do, but I can't...

there's anything super recent except that more and more people are open to giving their cats fluoxetine, which I think is super helpful and hopefully practitioners are moving away from kind of just doping cats up with GABA for behavioral issues because that's not working in the brain is the same way as as fluoxetine which is Prozac is and I like to recommend the fluoxetine for really high stress high anxiety cases where cats are over the

Gina Rendon (35:24)
Yeah.

Uh -huh.

Mm -hmm.

Okay. Okay.

Yeah.

Kristiina (35:47)
their threshold and behavior modification alone is not going to be helpful because those cats are so high stress that you can do all the behavioral mods you want. You can do all the clicker training. It's not going to stick because they're operating at such a high anxiety loop that first we need to bring them down to a place that's workable. We can work with them and then we can ease them off the medication that it doesn't have to be something that they're on forever. Just like with Kevin and Kitten Man, I don't plan for them to be on it forever. We're just easing them through this grief transition. So that's how we're going to do it.

Gina Rendon (35:52)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. And they, it won't stick. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

and hang.

Kristiina (36:16)
tends to be something that I work with vets a lot with in my practice to just kind of deal with clients and help them get their cats through like a super high anxiety period because generally I don't see people until their cat is really presenting at a high level of anxiety already and being destructive or hiding or peeing everywhere and they're at such a high point that whatever we do they're not going to respond and the fact that you can...

Gina Rendon (36:20)
Uh -huh.

Mm -hmm.

Right, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Unless you have medication. Yeah.

Kristiina (36:43)
Unless there's medication on board and the fact that you can compound it so that it's just that transdermal ointment that you can just put in the ear. So you again, don't have to chase the cat around to pill them. I think that's super helpful. But other than that, I don't know that there's a whole lot on in terms of pharmacology. That would be something that you would speak to.

Gina Rendon (36:49)
Super easy. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, not there. There isn't really and you know, again, I always feel like cats tend to be the forgotten animal, which is crazy because how many cats are out there and how much you know, people people are very dedicated. I think I think what's hard about them is that they are so sensitive. You know, so they tend to process medications differently. And so I, it's probably just a, you know, a

Kristiina (37:13)
Right. I know.

Gina Rendon (37:31)
the drug companies don't want to spend the money on what they think of as just a subset of the pet population. Yeah.

Kristiina (37:38)
I think probably you're right and that the spend on cats is so much lower than on dogs because people generally just tend to think like cats are okay until they're not like they don't because they are viewed as being so independent even though they're not, you know, they need just as much interaction and love and affection and intellectual stimulation from people as dogs do. But because they are socialized in such a different way and I think people forget that we socialized dogs.

Gina Rendon (37:44)
Okay.

Yeah, right. Yep.

That's right. Yep.

Thank you.

Kristiina (38:08)
To us to be kind of our mirrors and that cats domesticated themselves rather is what I was looking to say That there are 180 from us and that's often when I tell clients is that whatever seems reasonable to you like in terms of a behavioral modification what would work on you you should do 180 of that because that's what's gonna make sense to a cat right like Because their brains are just so different that people don't people just think they're fine

Gina Rendon (38:09)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Uh huh, right.

Right, right, yeah.

Kristiina (38:34)
and that they don't need much when in fact they need just as much. So I have a feeling it's just not worth it for a lot of companies to put a lot of money into cats because people aren't putting that much money into their cats yet. And hopefully that's going to change as we do more and more education and yeah.

Gina Rendon (38:39)
Yeah, absolutely. I agree, absolutely.

Yeah, I do. I do feel like that's changing. Yeah. Which is nice. I do feel like there's more of an awareness of how much cats need, but I agree. I feel like it's been for a really long time. You know, cats are self -sufficient. They can, you it goes to, to the thing that drives me nuts when people go on vacation and they leave their cats alone. I hate that. I just, I really, it makes me so sad. Yeah. So.

Kristiina (39:14)
I know. I know.

Gina Rendon (39:19)
Um, but I think that's changing. I think that people are really realizing the emotional life of cats. You know, they need a lot more than, than just a window in the, you know, a window seat or whatever, you know, a nice bed. They need a lot more than that.

Kristiina (39:34)
follower questions. Okay, so the first one is, do you have any tips for getting two cats into carriers with minimal stress and tears? I could give my answer to that, but let's see.

Let's hear your answer and then if I feel like there's anything to add from a behavior standpoint.

Gina Rendon (39:47)
Yeah, well, I'm sure we could both contribute. And I think we probably both agree that one of the most important things is that they're familiar with the carrier before the day they go to the vet or the day that you try to put them in. So I recommend having the carriers be part of their normal lives, you know, places that they're used to spending time that they get fed in, that they get treats and they get toys in so that that it's not unfamiliar, which I think is.

So important. And also I think it's much more comforting when they do have to go to the vet, if they're in a place that to them is something that is a safe place as opposed to I'm only in this horrible little container when I'm going to the vet, I hate it. I hate you. I hate everything. You know, you want to kind of make it a safe place for them. And then it makes the entire experience a lot better. But you know, one of the things that is a little bit of a, um, I think you have to be careful about trying to get.

Kristiina (40:25)
Mm -hmm.

Gina Rendon (40:44)
two animals into one carrier. Sometimes the visit to the vet can be very stimulating to a cat. And in some cases it can make them aggressive to even if it's their sister, their brother, their mother, for whatever reason, some cats will get set off by that. And so it makes me a little bit nervous when I have two cats coming in in the same carrier, because sometimes you'll put one in and the other one is already hissing and.

Kristiina (40:46)
Mm -hmm.

Right.

Gina Rendon (41:14)
Um, and acting aggressive and that makes me really nervous. So you get that redirected aggression and that can, and that can actually continue on at home for a little while, which is never a good thing. So my preference is to have kitties and separate carriers for that reason. And then it makes it easier. It makes it easier to load them too. Again, if it's a place that it's not, um, not too stressful to them and they're used to being in it, then that makes it a lot easier.

Kristiina (41:17)
Yeah, then you get redirected aggression. Yeah.

Yes.

And that makes sense.

Right. Can you speak a little bit about pharmacological interventions such as the ones I have to use? Yes.

Gina Rendon (41:47)
Oh, I'm And that actually, there's a, I think another question that's down the line because you sent me that list of questions. And, and the question was the, the pros and cons of having to take your cat to the vet when it's so stressful. And I, and I think this goes exactly to what you're referring to, which is that you should work with a vet who is cat friendly certified or fear free certified.

Kristiina (41:52)
Okay, yes.

Yes. Right.

Gina Rendon (42:15)
that understands that sometimes a pharmacological intervention, and not even sometimes, I feel like for a vast majority of cats, they would benefit from being on either something like Galapentin or Trazodone prior to going anywhere that's not their usual place. And so, you know, vets can prescribe medications ahead of time. Usually you need to have a...

Um, a, a relationship with the vet, there should, there should be a, a, um, doctor patient relationship before, um, that prescription originally gets filled. Kind of depends on the doctor that you're, um, that you're working with. I have definitely prescribed, um, like a day's worth of, uh, of a sedative before meeting the patient in order to make it easier to get that patient in. Otherwise it's a wasted visit if I can't, if I can't actually see them. So.

Kristiina (43:08)
Mm -hmm.

That's right.

Gina Rendon (43:12)
Uh, yeah. And so, but, but giving those medications a couple of hours before taking them to the vet will also make it easier to get them into the carrier. Um, and it does make a huge difference in terms of their yearly visits, being able to get them in on a, on a more regular basis.

Kristiina (43:27)
Right. Can you really for my edification talk about the difference between gabapentin and trazodome?

Gina Rendon (43:34)
Gabapentin is actually a pain medication and it's great for neurological pain, but it also provides sedation. So, and the interesting thing about gabapentin is that we don't really know how it works. If you look at what the pharmacodynamics of it, it's not incredibly well understood what it's doing, but it is a pain medication. It gives you a little bit of sedation, whereas trazodone is an actual sedative.

Um, oh my gosh, and I'm forgetting exactly how it works, but I believe it's a serotonin reuptake inhibitor to some degree. And so, um, it actually kind of changes more their brain chemistry than access justice. Uh, personally, my, just my own experience with it is I feel like, um, trazadrone works a little bit better than the Gabapentin does. I feel like Gabapentin makes them a little bit sleepy, but when you.

Kristiina (44:10)
Yeah.

Right.

Gina Rendon (44:33)
If you stimulate them enough, they can fight through it a lot, a lot more. Whereas the Trazadone I just feel like it really kind of gives them a little, a little peace. So yeah.

Kristiina (44:38)
Yeah.

Yes, that is my feeling as well. But with some of our cast like Mimi, she's gonna fight through it no matter what it is.

Gina Rendon (44:52)
Yes, some cats need both of those at the same time, which is also very safe. And I think that's one of the things too, is that these medications are very safe. And animals as true cats, both cats and dogs, they respond differently. So the dosing range tends to be very, very wide. And some animals respond to much smaller doses, whereas other animals need much higher doses like Ms. Mimi.

Kristiina (45:02)
Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Gina Rendon (45:21)
So yeah, but definitely something to work with your vet about on whatever.

Kristiina (45:26)
Okay, and kind of taking that question into the next one is what is the best way to treat cat travel anxiety that causes car sickness? And this is from someone whose cat barfs two minutes into the ride and I have had similar cats who emergency poop two minutes into the ride. Like, is that a similar scenario where we want to use medication?

Gina Rendon (45:40)
Uh -huh.

Yeah, yeah.

Cerenia Yeah, I was gonna say probably a combination. So if it's a stress thing, then I would do the Trazodone, because I really like Trazodone for traveling cats. And Cerenia is a motion sickness medication. It is off label for cats, so it's only FDA approved in dogs, but it works in cats, and we've been using it for years in cats.

Kristiina (45:50)
Sarenia, sarenia, yes.

Mm -hmm.

Gina Rendon (46:13)
Um, so I, I would definitely use that if you have a cat that gets car sick. Um, and that usually has to be given a couple of hours before travel to make it effective. So you have to kind of plan your day, but it can be very, very effective.

Kristiina (46:28)
Thank you. How do you feel about homeopathic herbal care for cats? Is it real? Is it not real? Like what's going on?

Gina Rendon (46:29)
Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's a big question because I think there definitely are, you know, homeopathic treatments that can be very effective. It kind of, you know, and, and, and a caveat, I really don't have training in homeopathic medicine. And there are definitely doctors who take the time to, you know, study for a couple of years and get certified in homeopathic medicine.

And I don't doubt that there are benefits. I just don't really know what the specifics are. I think if you're interested in doing homeopathic medicine, you really should work with somebody who's done advanced training because I'm sure there are things to offer. I just honestly, I don't really know that much about it. But you know, things like acupuncture for sure, I know.

Kristiina (47:15)
Great.

Totally fair.

Gina Rendon (47:38)
You know, the nice thing about acupuncture is that there's not, you can't really do the placebo type of effect in animals the way you can with humans. And we have seen differences made with, with acupuncture. Um, but yeah, I, I'm sure there's some benefit. I just can't really speak to specifics.

Kristiina (47:47)
Right.

If someone wanted to go to a vet who does have homeopathic training, what would they look for? Is there like a board certification? Is there... Okay.

Gina Rendon (48:04)
Yeah, there there are there's I believe The one that I'm the Chi Institute does I believe certification and there are a lot of vets that have You know their Western doctorate and then they go on to do additional training and in Herbal medicine, so I would look for somebody like that Yeah

Kristiina (48:19)
Mm -hmm.

Cool. Do you need to clip indoor cat's nails?

Gina Rendon (48:31)
I think you do because those nails will really, really grow. And I mean, if you have the scratching posts and the various things for cats, the only thing that that does is make those nails sharper. And so it's not, I mean, they take out those outer sheaths and it really, you know, it's great for their muscles and everything, but man, those nails are crazy. And one of the reasons I do think it's important to clip indoor cat's nails is because,

Kristiina (48:45)
Yeah, yeah, I know. Right.

Gina Rendon (49:01)
Um, for one thing, it hurts you when they're lying on you and, and, you know, if they're making biscuits on your lap, it hurts, but, but they also can get caught in things. And so they get caught in fabric and older cats can have those nails overgrow into their pads. And so if they're not used to being clipped, if you can't get ahold of them, then that can actually be a big issue. I've seen a lot of older kitty cats that have had several nails that are embedded into their pads.

Kristiina (49:06)
Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Ugh.

Gina Rendon (49:29)
And it's awful. It's really awful. So it's, I think important to keep an eye. Yeah. Keep an eye on the nails and keep them from overgrowing.

Kristiina (49:31)
Gosh. Yes.

Here is another question. My blind since birth kitten has nightmares. It's very scary for all of us. What should I do?

Gina Rendon (49:45)
Um, when I saw that question, I had more questions because I, yeah, because I would really want to know what's happening. Cats will dream. So you can see, um, some motion in while they're sleeping. That's part of just dreaming. Cats can also have seizures when, when, you know, when it looks like, um, dreaming, which are actually, um, little mini partial seizures.

Kristiina (49:49)
Yeah, as do I.

Mm -hmm.

Gina Rendon (50:15)
So it's possible that it's not necessarily nightmares, but maybe neurological activity, in which case doing something like an anticanvulsant can help. So I guess I just have more questions about what it means for the cat to be having nightmares. If the cat is painful, then obviously pain medications would be something to consider, but that was a, I wasn't a hundred percent sure what that meant.

Kristiina (50:42)
Yeah, I think video would be helpful in this instance. Yeah, okay. Since my cat died, his non -bio brother has been obsessed with being brushed three to five times a day. Is he okay?

Gina Rendon (50:45)
I think video would be very, very helpful. Yeah.

Um, he's probably grieving, you know, my guess is, and I think probably Christina, you could probably speak to this a lot more than I can having recently gone through this and seeing your cats that are having to deal with this change. But my, my guess is that, um, you know, probably your kitty needs a little bit more affection because it's uncertain and things have changed and it's feeling confused and.

Kristiina (51:22)
Yeah, that was my read as well. And also that if they were very close, they probably did aloe grooming, right? And so that the cat is probably missing that from his brother. But also I think being brushed is comforting, at least our cats when I bring the brush out, because we do what I call salon Sundays. So every Sunday everyone gets their nails trimmed and they all get a thorough brushing. And you know, it's just the alliteration makes me able to remember like Sunday, we got to do everyone's tootsies and we're going to brush everyone. Yeah, like everyone.

Gina Rendon (51:29)
Thank you.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Uh -huh. It's salon Sunday. I love it. Uh -huh.

Kristiina (51:52)
a mat they're gonna get it trimmed out you know like everything's taken care of and whenever I bring that brush out there's a literal line of cats they will line up because they love being brushed so much because it's a bonding activity but it feels good you know and and it is stimulating it helps get rid helps the blood flow and you know I think all of that I can't imagine an instance why being brushed three to five times a day would be bad I think I do think that cat is just grieving and I think any additional

Gina Rendon (52:00)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

Kristiina (52:21)
attention, intellectual stimulation, environmental stimulation, you know, things like an enrichment box, a bird feeder for him to watch, like any of those things can be helpful to help keep his mind out of the grief loop. But.

Gina Rendon (52:27)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah. And, and, and one would assume that with time, that'll be something that, um, starts to normalize a little bit more, but yeah, I agree. It's, and it's important to, um, recognize that. And I think to, um, you know, just to help them through.

Kristiina (52:52)
Yeah, and so that leads me into the the last follower question, which is how do vets cope with grief? And I know that's like a big loaded question that you and I have talked a lot about, and I guess you can give whatever thoughts that you would feel comfortable sharing.

Gina Rendon (53:02)
that's a big loaded question. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Um, I think, you know, one of the ways I tend to think of grief and I, you know, I, I do want to, whoever, um, asked the question, I appreciate that there's a recognition that vets do really have to deal with grief a lot. Um, I think it's important for vets to, to kind of grapple with it and figure out ways to deal with it because it is so real. Um,

Interestingly enough, I think my daughter helped me with this more than anything is kind of looking at grief as the other side of love, you know, that without that love, you can't have that grief. And so thinking of it in terms of like, you're so lucky to be able to have that love that you have. Unfortunately, that grief really does hurt, but it's also coming from that place of.

you just had this really special bond and kind of honoring it as that, honoring it as the love in your life. It doesn't make it easier, but to me, it makes it a little bit more, it's a little bit more sacred.

Kristiina (54:21)
Yeah, one of my oldest and best friends told me something very similar when Steve died and it was just like, the grief is the price you pay. Like you just pay at the end, you know, for all of the joy you had and it's just, you just have to pay at the end. And it's very, very true. But it's rough, so.

Gina Rendon (54:32)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yep.

Yeah, you pay it in. That's

Yeah, it is. It's really rough, but it's, you know, I mean, I think, um, just life in general, you have your, you have the good side and you have the bad side. Um, and it's what makes life rich, you know? And so it doesn't make it easy, but I think it's part of it. And just kind of accepting that and, and, you know, going back to thinking about how lucky you are to be able to have that love in your life.

You know, that's the way I deal with it.

Kristiina (55:13)
Thank you so much, Gina. That actually leads us into the next topic of the next podcast is going to be grief and loss. So let's wrap up on this depressing note. We can talk about the next episode. It's gonna be all about handling grief and loss of a pet. And we'll be talking to some experts in that field. Thank you so, so much, Gina. You remain the absolute

Gina Rendon (55:15)
Thank you.

Okay.

Wow!

Oh, you.

Kristiina (55:42)
best, smartest, most wonderful vet in the whole world. I've recommended you to people not on this continent and just been like, well, but the best vet is in Brooklyn. So, you know, it's you really are the like most like up on your education, kindest, nicest person and we just appreciate it.

Gina Rendon (55:45)
Aww,

Oh

Kristiina (56:02)
you so much and I thank you so much for being a guest on my goofy podcast where I don't know what I'm doing

Gina Rendon (56:04)
Oh, thanks.