In this episode, we meet the guests, Suse Goricke and Stacy Attenberg, who are independent rescuers and advocates for trap-neuter-return (TNR) and community cats. They discuss the importance of TNR in managing community cat populations and debunk the misconception that relocating cats is a viable solution. The guests also emphasize the need to give cats sufficient time to decompress after trapping and the importance of proper assessment. Additionally, they discuss the additional steps involved in TNR, such as vaccinations and other treatments. The conversation explores the challenges of snap testing and accessing services in New York, the difficulties in obtaining spay/neuter appointments, the resources and voucher programs available in Connecticut, and the different trapping methods used by the speakers. In this conversation, Stacy and Suse discuss various trapping methods for community cats, including the use of True Catch traps and drop traps. They also share the importance of securing traps with zip ties to prevent cats from escaping. The conversation then shifts to the positive impact of TNR on both the cats and the communities they inhabit. Stacy and Suse highlight success stories and the personal fulfillment they experience through their rescue work. They offer advice for individuals interested in getting involved in cat rescue and emphasize the importance of asking for help and building a support network. The role of social media in raising awareness and garnering support for rescue work is also discussed. The conversation concludes with a lighthearted discussion about sharing personal spaces with community cats.
Takeaways
In this episode, we meet the guests, Suse Goricke and Stacy Attenberg, who are independent rescuers and advocates for trap-neuter-return (TNR) and community cats. They discuss the importance of TNR in managing community cat populations and debunk the misconception that relocating cats is a viable solution. The guests also emphasize the need to give cats sufficient time to decompress after trapping and the importance of proper assessment. Additionally, they discuss the additional steps involved in TNR, such as vaccinations and other treatments. The conversation explores the challenges of snap testing and accessing services in New York, the difficulties in obtaining spay/neuter appointments, the resources and voucher programs available in Connecticut, and the different trapping methods used by the speakers. In this conversation, Stacy and Suse discuss various trapping methods for community cats, including the use of True Catch traps and drop traps. They also share the importance of securing traps with zip ties to prevent cats from escaping. The conversation then shifts to the positive impact of TNR on both the cats and the communities they inhabit. Stacy and Suse highlight success stories and the personal fulfillment they experience through their rescue work. They offer advice for individuals interested in getting involved in cat rescue and emphasize the importance of asking for help and building a support network. The role of social media in raising awareness and garnering support for rescue work is also discussed. The conversation concludes with a lighthearted discussion about sharing personal spaces with community cats.
Takeaways
Kristiina (00:33)
All right. Hi and welcome to another episode of His and Tell. Today's guests are Suse Goricke an independent rescuer and foster out of Brooklyn.
and Stacy Attenberg, also an independent rescuer out of New Haven, Connecticut. We are going to talk today about TNR, community cats, rescue, foster, all of that good stuff. So I'm gonna let the two of you just introduce yourselves so I can stop talking. Stacy, why don't you go ahead and go first?
Stacy (00:59)
Sure. So I primarily work out of New Haven and Hamden. I do a lot of trap neuter return of feral cats or trap neuter rescue and rehabilitate of cats that might seem like they're feral at first once they're trapped, but I always assess them to see if they actually are feral or if they're just presenting as such because they're scared. So if they do seem like they have potential, I give them the proper time to decompress and work with them.
and then get them placed with amazing local rescues and I'm socializing a lot of, you know, older cats, kittens. I'm a feral feeder. I have 10 different colonies, community cat colonies that I manage with trapping, feeding every day, doesn't matter the weather conditions. I'm out there.
I've built an incredible network doing this for the last 14 years. So I'm very fortunate.
Kristiina (01:53)
All right, amazing. So say you want to give your spiel about who you are and what you do and how you came into doing this.
Stacy (01:55)
Thank you.
Suse (02:00)
Well, that part's really critical. Yes, so I'm Suse Gurika, and I am an independent rescuer, TNR volunteer. I foster, I socialized reluctantly.
Kristiina (02:15)
but you've become so good at it.
Suse (02:16)
I don't like it. I'm not good at the patient stuff. I also feed local colonies, make sure that they're fixed and vaccinated, similar to Stacey. I just haven't been doing it as long. I rescued my first cat inadvertently in 2018. That's how I reluctantly became a cat person and then been doing really the volunteer stuff since 2020. And fun fact is that Kristiina actually got me into it because I had one cat.
Kristiina and I knew each other through mutual friends. And I said, there are these other cats in my yard and I actually don't really want them there. And Kristiina said, why don't you put out a litter box and food? And that's how it started. And then I ended up bringing all of those cats inside. And since then, it's been hundreds.
Kristiina (02:58)
Hahahaha
Yeah, your rescue work has grown exponentially as have the cats that live with you permanently. Although you're still not up to our status of cats. I do love seeing the amount of cats that you have go from like, we'll never have more than one to now you have four permanent residents, right? Yeah. And I know you've said that's the hard limit, but we'll see. We'll see.
Suse (03:24)
of. Yeah.
Well, if it wasn't for my husband's asthma, it would not be a heart limit. That's really the limiting factor. And at a certain point, I have to make a choice between, do I love my husband? I do. Do I want him to be healthy? I do. So yeah, otherwise, I would have kept more.
Kristiina (03:33)
Yeah.
Yes.
So can you guys explain, um, either one of you or both of you talk about what TNR is and why it's an important practice for managing community cap populations?
Stacy (03:56)
People say trap new to release or trap new to return. I like return because they're returning back to their outdoor homes essentially, even though they may not have shelters. That's the area they know. So a lot of people think, oh, you know, I have cats in my yard and want them removed, put them somewhere else. Um, there are a lot of people that still do barn homes. I personally am not an advocate for barn homes just because there are certain ways to do things.
and what we call like barn relocation protocols to make sure that the animals stick around. You can't just pick them up and dump them off somewhere because they won't stay. But in my own experience and fellow trappers that have also experienced it too, I've known lots of people where we've attempted at doing it the proper way where you have an animal confined either in a barn that's enclosed or in like a...
Kristiina (04:32)
All right.
Stacy (04:49)
big crate to get them used to the new area. And they don't, even if you do it for weeks on end and somebody's monitoring it safe, et cetera, they don't always stick around, even with adjusting to the new surroundings, the smells and stuff. And my big thing is, if you're taking an animal that's out of an inner city environment and now you're putting them out into the wilderness, they don't have the same knowledge.
Kristiina (05:01)
Right.
Stacy (05:16)
of the animals in that area and I worry about coyotes and fisher cats and you know bears and hawks and owls and eagles. I mean like it's just the inner city cats are not exposed to that stuff so they have no chance at all in survival. And I've lost a cat to that and that almost did me in years ago. I almost stopped doing rescue because of it because I fought so hard for this cat. But needless to say that's you know one thing that I always want to.
Kristiina (05:31)
Right.
Ugh.
Stacy (05:46)
press on that you can't just trap a cat and remove it from the area that they know It's like putting a cat putting somebody in a foreign country where the language is different and they don't know how to survive so but yeah, I
Kristiina (05:55)
Right. And I want to just piggyback off. I just want to piggyback off that for a second and just say that doesn't work for other species either for people who might be like, Oh, well, blah, it should work for cats. When I was learning in my master's program about doing relocation of other animals, especially wolves or other animals that people think are problematic animals and people want to trap them put them somewhere else.
there's a, I think it was the stunt, the figure was something like 70 or 80% of them do not survive because they don't know where their resources are. Regardless of the species, if you take them out of the environment that they're used to, they don't know where they are. They don't know where the resources are. They don't know where their buddies are. They don't know the enemies in that territory and they tend to not survive. So for people, we think, oh, well, we could just plop them down and they'll be fine because they're wild animals. They'll figure it out.
most of the time they don't end up figuring it out. And I think a good kind of analogy would be like, if you took us and just dropped us off in a foreign country where we didn't speak the language and we had no money, we had no resources, how would we survive? And I think probably not very well. And so I also think when people think about finding all these friendly cats lately and the community cats that you're serving.
Stacy (07:01)
Exactly.
Kristiina (07:12)
And I think a lot of that obviously is coming from people moving or just not being able to afford to keep up their cats anymore. And so there's letting their cats outside thinking, oh, it's a cat. It's going to survive. It's going to be fine. And it's the same thing as it's not going to survive because it doesn't know where its resources are coming from. And so I think that's an important thing for people to keep in mind when dealing with cats is that, yes, they're a predator, but they're also prey. And just because they can survive outside, does it mean they're going to?
Stacy (07:22)
Mm-hmm.
True, yeah, people try to relocate wildlife all the time, like skunks and raccoons, etc. You know, it drives me nuts because I'm like, you're also, if they have babies out there, now all those animals are going to die because you've taken away their parents.
Kristiina (07:42)
Yeah.
Yes.
Stacy (07:51)
Trap neuter return to me is, or you know, just to bring the animals back to where they're from. These are animals that can't be socialized, that don't want to be inside like your Mr. PP, who you tried with. You know, not everybody will adjust. But I think it's really important that, you know, an issue that I have with rescuers and trappers, just that I've seen for years is that, you know, I get like there's not the resources. A lot of people don't have the time or the energy or the space or the ability or understanding of the behavior.
Kristiina (08:00)
Yes.
Right.
Stacy (08:20)
but to really allow animals the time to decompress and assess them properly. Because so many friendly cats get dumped back outside because they're deemed as feral when they present that way initially. Because think about it, you're in a small trap, you're terrified. You know, I know I would be. You know, all these small, you know, strange smells and places and, you know, new places and these giant creatures hovering over you, doing stuff in the trap and, you know, or doctor's offices, it's just crazy. So I just, that part.
Kristiina (08:31)
Right.
Of course.
I know. Yeah.
Stacy (08:50)
drives me crazy that there's not proper assessment done and how many friendlies are actually being dumped back outside.
Kristiina (08:57)
What do you think would be a good amount of time for people to give a cat to kind of bring them back under threshold of anxiety for you to be able to properly assess them? Would you say like a week, two weeks, a month? Like how long do you think people should be prepared to give the cat to kind of come back down from that initial anxiety?
Stacy (09:15)
Thanks for watching!
I mean, realistically, I think it matters per animal. You know, like, I judge it based by per animal, and a minimum I give of two weeks, just to, because, you know, the first week is like shell shock, and they're trying to get used to your routine, and, you know, all the changes and everything, but, you know, if I don't see any, like, obvious stuff in their behavior changing, or if I just, like, sometimes I just get a sense of whether or not they're gonna come around, or.
Suse (09:16)
So.
Kristiina (09:20)
Right.
Okay.
Stacy (09:43)
you know, if they're lunging at me. And even so, I've had cats lunge and hiss at me that I've turned out to be the sweetest cat that I can kiss. So you just, you never know.
Kristiina (09:48)
Sure.
What do you think, Suse, about like, how long do you tend to give the cats? And I know you have a little bit, sometimes a different situation when they just show up on your porch, you get a little bit of a different assessment. But how long do you tend to give them in terms of an assessment period?
Suse (10:05)
Well, it's not just us.
I don't have the luxury of giving them that much time, right? I want to give every cat as much time as possible, but I...
Kristiina (10:09)
Right.
Suse (10:16)
And one, constrained by space, right? Two, we have, I mean, the number of homeless cats in New York years ago was assessed at 500,000 or estimated at 500,000. It has to be more now. Because if it was 500,000 five, six years ago, yes, there are more rescuers. I only got into it in that time frame, but it's impossible to keep up. So I...
Kristiina (10:19)
Mm-hmm.
Suse (10:41)
often will make a very intentional decision of, I'm going to go out, I'm going to do a TNR project. And unless a cat is obviously friendly, as long as I know they have a feeder and they have shelter, I will return them. I will recover them for as long as it takes, but also return them as quickly as I can, because it is so uncomfortable in a trap. I, frankly, never feel good about putting a cat in a trap.
Kristiina (11:05)
Right.
Suse (11:11)
right now in my basement. It's warm. They're fed, you know, I clean multiple times a day. But it's, you know, yes, it would be like being in a jail cell, you know, for them. I think we have this unrealistic expectation sometimes as rescuers of, well, they should be happy. I'm bringing them food, you know, and they don't have that on the street. They don't have, you know, a bowl of friskeys twice a day.
Yeah, but isn't that also what jail is? You know, you're confined. There's someone who brings you food, but you're still in a place where nothing smells like what you're used to. You know, the traps are covered intentionally, but it's still very uncomfortable. So.
Kristiina (11:36)
Yes.
Suse (11:51)
Um, you know, with males, I return them within 24 to 48 hours. And unless they're obviously friendly, or if it's a slow time and I have room, then I might give them a chance. But, you know, if there were no space constraints, no personal constraints around allergies in the house. Yes, I would want to give them.
know, a week or two or longer, but that's just not always possible or often it isn't. And so if my choice is between
doing nothing and letting a colony proliferate, or at least getting them fixed, making sure they're recovered well, they're vaccinated, and they have a feeder and shelter to go to, I would still choose the latter. But yeah, it's always sweet. I always say my favorite part is to return them, but it's also sad because you're returning them to an urban environment where.
Kristiina (12:33)
sure.
Suse (12:44)
You know, they didn't choose to be born there. They didn't choose to be dumped there. Well, and you know, dumped cats, I generally will not put out because they clearly belong inside.
Kristiina (12:55)
Great. So thank you for that. When you guys do your TNR work, obviously the N stands for neuter, which is neuter or spay.
so that cats cannot go ahead and create additional cats for this problem to be compounded so that I think is the most important part. When I do it, I like to also get the cats vaccinated for rabies and then also with the first shot of FVRC-P vaccine which vaccinates against three contagious diseases. As you guys know, I'm just going to say it for the listeners, that's feline, viral
which we did recently have a scare in our house about, and that was terrifying. So I'm curious if you guys get the cats vaccinated. If you don't, what's going on?
Suse (13:44)
I can start.
Stacy (13:45)
So, oh, go ahead.
Kristiina (13:45)
Suse.
Suse (13:46)
So I always also do flea meds. Yes, the revolution is gonna last a month But at least it's a month of relief, right? and if they have tapeworms it'll help there I chip every cat every feral because I always you know register them to me because If they later turn out to be friendly or you know, god forbid they die I would want to know I'm invested in every single cat that I Take off the street whether it's temporary or not
So, Chip, of course, neuter all the vaccines. Chip, flea treatment. And then I also like to give them a dewormer for the time that they're in the trap. Again, yes, it's temporary, but it's relief that it's possible for me to give them.
Kristiina (14:29)
Okay, Stacey.
Stacy (14:30)
I do the same with the vaccines, both of the vaccines. I also do revolution treatments, and I do dewormer as well. I don't actually microchip the cats. I wouldn't be able to afford that on top of everything else.
I also am a believer, I mean, and I know this is like, so I come from like the old school mentality of you don't snap test for feline aids and leukemia for ferals, but I personally feel like, because a lot of people feel like if you do that and you have positive tested casks, you shouldn't release them back out because it's not a responsible thing, but I personally feel like, for me, I feel like it's more responsible for my own being and my own just.
how I view it is to snap-sus everybody that comes in. And if they are positive, then I make a decision. Is the cat fractious? Is the cat a strong positive for leukemia? If the cat is a strong positive and fractious, and I have nowhere for the cat to go, then I feel like it's more humane to euthanize that animal than to spread that disease because it is so contagious.
And but if the cat is not fractious and is leukemia positive, then I do a retest. If the cat is a pregnant cat that's a strong positive, I'll do a retest. And I've actually, I know of a doctor that creates colostrums, which is what the mama cat's, it's basically what has all the strong antibodies in, you know, what the moms produce the first like week of, day of the week.
Kristiina (16:00)
Mm-hmm.
Stacy (16:04)
of their life as their nursing that give like their immune system, you know, what they need. So I know a doctor that actually knows how to create a synthetic colostrum and has actually taken cats from a leukemia mom before she was able to groom them and potentially transfer the virus and bottle fed them and got them healthy and the mom still ended up being positive but got placed with other positive cats. But I just, I feel like for me I need to, I need to know that. And if it's an FIV positive.
I usually don't release them back out. I work with them. But I have in the past, because I figure they're already out there. They already have the established territory. If I've neutered them, they're going to be less apt to fight. So that's just something that I believe for myself that I need to do.
Kristiina (16:39)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Suse (16:49)
we don't have that option in New York for, at least for the ASPCA, which is where we get most of our appointments. They will not, by policy, snap test a cat that comes in a trap.
Kristiina (17:01)
Really?
Suse (17:02)
Yeah, so we can't do it. And it's because I think of that old school way of thinking of if the cat does test positive, then what do we do? So yeah, you can't do it just like you can't have a cat ear tip that's in a carrier, which is also interesting. So they already create a very strict paradigm of it's either friendly or feral, and it either gets friendly services or feral services.
make options where I guess you could do it but
It's not routinely done by any of the rescuers that I'm connected with here in New York, so it's interesting that it's even an option. I will say that I've recently learned through FELV seminars that it's actually a lot less contagious than it has been previously thought, that FELV doesn't get transmitted unless there is, you know, a month of intense
So that's apparently the latest. But that actually has nothing to do with why I don't snap test. It's because we can't. And I don't know if I would. But yeah, we can't. I just completely keep the cats all separated in my house.
Kristiina (18:17)
I did want to bring up that fact with you, Suse, about I, when I was living in New York, you know, I had an amazing deal with my wonderful friend, Dr. Gina Rendon, who was the first guest on the podcast, who really helped me so much in my own rescue work over the years,
I was able to do microchipping and, um,
Snap testing and it, excuse me, all of that stuff through her. And so that was really helpful. But I know when you take cats into the ASPCA, like you said, too, so they're already pre sorted, right? So you have to bring in cats in traps, right? For them to be able to do certain types of services. And then if you want other services, they have to be in carriers. So maybe you could speak a little bit to that.
Suse (18:58)
Sure. I actually am going to start by talking about the sign-up process for low-cost spay neuter in New York, if that's okay. So if you remember when the COVID vaccines first came on the market, there would be someone saying, on this website over here, you can right now sign up for appointments. You have basically 50 seconds or something like that, and then all the spots are gone.
Kristiina (19:06)
Yeah, please.
Yes.
Suse (19:24)
That's what happens every month in New York City when the ASPCA opens their books for low-cost spay neuter appointments for rescuers. And that is only rescuers who registered with the ASPCA, I want to say, before fall of 2022, something like that. So I'm lucky that I did that in time, because plenty of rescuers who got into it after have not even been able to sign up with the ASPCA and have zero access to these appointments.
So every month the ASPCA opens their books toward the end of the month at 6 a.m. on a random weekday with usually a couple of days notice. And there are usually around 1,300 appointments available for the next month. And it's usually more rescuers who are eligible. So on average, every rescuer gets, I don't know, 0.9 appointments for the following month.
Stacy (20:17)
Thank you.
Suse (20:19)
That's obviously not how it ends up shaking out, right? Some people don't log on. Some people have bad internet or maybe aren't, you know, they might not be technical. They might have lives that don't allow them to be online at 6 a.m. on the dot. But at this point, it really is like signing up for a COVID vaccine in March of 2021. It's crazy. And so we do that. I generally get...
Stacy (20:20)
Wow.
Suse (20:45)
pretty lucky because I now of course have developed a system and you know I will pick a day where my work allows me to go in the morning before work drop off.
Kristiina (20:49)
Hehehe
Suse (20:58)
however many cats I'm able to get in, and then toward the end of the day, go pick them up. So we all arrange our lives around these precious, precious appointments. And then there's essentially an underground marketplace where we trade with each other because this person might've gotten appointments for a day that doesn't work for them anymore, or they don't have enough cats. And so...
That is how we gain access to ESPCA's Bayneuter appointments, which for a long time was the only game in town. Now there are a few others. There is Cat Cafe, which is in Brooklyn Heights, where it's more expensive, but at least it's available. There is Flatbush Vet, which is a low-cost clinic that opened up just last summer, run by Flatbush cats, who have done a really, really amazing job setting up
organization, but again, very, very focused on Flatbush as a rescue area. And now we as rescuers have access, but again, it's more expensive than the ASPCA. So we have some options, but none of them are free unless you get literally nothing else done at the ASPCA and you just do the mandatory shots and the basic shots and the spay and neuter, everything else you start paying for. And
Kristiina (21:57)
Mm-hmm.
Suse (22:16)
That is how we go about it. And I think none of us could be doing any of this work in New York, at least if we weren't all connected in some way, and start trading appointments with each other.
Kristiina (22:26)
Mm-hmm.
Stacy (22:29)
to hear just the difference from Connecticut to New York. We're literally a state over just the obstacles that you guys have to deal with.
I used to be on the board of directors for the Greater New Haven CAT Project.
It was, you know, filled with a lot of different avenues there, so that's how I got this relationship with a vet in Orange, Connecticut. And they're very old school about a lot of the things that they do there, so they're not like advanced. They don't even have internet service. So, but they're very accommodating. And even say I'm trapping the night before if I don't, you know, I have an appointment the next day for, you know, three cats. If I only get one or I don't get anybody. And sometimes even if I get four.
I'll call them and let them know and I have the vet tech's information who does a lot of the surgeries with the doctor and let her know so they're very, very kind and flexible. They don't charge you if you don't show up. in Connecticut it's definitely...
not that easy and I know a lot of trappers in various different cities in Connecticut really struggled during the pandemic trying to find low-cost spay-neuter appointments with the clinics and a lot of them like after the one shut down and then there was others that were really just very backed up or not doing any surgeries. So I remember seeing a lot of fleas online. I'm like I can't even give away this resource because they don't have the capability to do you know 20 or 30 animals a day. They only have like you know maybe max 15 or 16. So
Kristiina (23:47)
Right.
Stacy (23:53)
But yeah, needless to say, this vet is really the reason I'm able to do what I do. But I know a lot of places use, Nutmeg, Spay Neuter Clinic, Stratford, and...
There's POA Spain Hartford and there's, oh geez, value pet. That's a value pet in Fairfield and Monroe. And there's also Highway that offers feral rates there out in Fairfield. So, you know, there's definitely a lot more options than there used to be. And the place that used to be around that closed down, they're trying to work on getting that back up and running because that was a really valuable resource. But.
Kristiina (24:21)
Yeah.
Stacy (24:30)
Yeah, it's been an obstacle for everybody, I feel like, no matter where we are. But we don't have to jump through the hoops, necessarily, that you guys do in New York, where there's one random day. And I can't even imagine having to work like that. I'm sure you just have adapted that that's what the norm is. And I feel like I'm spoiled with this connection that I have.
Kristiina (24:49)
Sure. Can you talk a little bit about the voucher program that we have here in Connecticut? Because I think a lot of people are led to believe, as I was when I first moved here, that oh, Connecticut is really devoted towards this cause of spay neutering, all of its feral and community cats. And you know, we provide vouchers to people to help them defray costs for spay neutering. And then when I looked into it a little more, it is actually very
Stacy (24:56)
Thank you.
Kristiina (25:19)
something that I have noticed that there is kind of an underground barter system like Suse was talking about for the appointments that rescuers use for exchanging these vouchers so it's a little bit the same so I don't know if you want to speak to that a little bit or if you ever use vouchers
Stacy (25:33)
Yeah, sure. Oh yeah. Those things are godsend. So they're called APCP vouchers, which stands for Animal Control Population Program. And the state of Connecticut offers low income APCP vouchers for people that are essentially low income if they apply, but they have a very short window of time to use them if they're granted them. So there's an allotment of those for people
are lower income based. And a lot of them, at the end of the year, end up going unused, which just burns my britches, because I think to myself, all those unused vouchers could go to the rescues and still get used. Why don't they just do that? All these unused vouchers, allocate them to the people that actually are doing the work. But the way that the process works for the APCP vouchers for rescues is...
So I myself as an independent rescuer would not be able to apply for them or anyone else that is. It has to be a non-profit 501C3 or a shelter that applies for them. And the shelter actually can use them for dogs as well, which I didn't realize until a few years ago. And that's usually what they hand to their vets. And certain, so it has to be a practicing vet that will allow them. Certain vets, the full cost is covered and it usually is spay, neuter.
and the first set of vaccines is the only thing that's covered. But some vets will do additional meds on board or other things like they might charge for medical waste, et cetera. And I know that they definitely just raise the fee. So it's not always all included in a voucher. But the vet that I work with, thankfully, is. So the only thing that I end up paying for if I'm using a voucher is the revolution and the SNAP test, or if there's any additional injury where they need.
medications, antibiotics, et cetera, and an air tipped. So if you're using an APCP voucher, it's mandatory that the cat is air tipped and the cat has to be a feral cat. And most of the time, unless you said there's outwardly friendly ones, you just assume they're all feral until you know, because a lot of them present that way. So I never know, nine out of 10 cats, if I'm trapping them and they end up being friendly, I have no idea, unless they're very outwardly friendly. Obviously then I can't use a voucher, but.
Kristiina (27:42)
Right.
Stacy (27:52)
So over the years, they've changed the time periods of when the vouchers need to be used up. So for the rescues or the shelters, the window of time to use them is a lot longer. And that's changed tremendously over the years. There's one year they didn't do it at all. They used to do it twice a year.
Kristiina (28:05)
Mm-hmm.
Stacy (28:12)
Now it's once a year and they've heard everybody's pleas, like can you please extend this longer because there's no way we can get all these used, you know, in the middle of winter when the cats hunker down. Some people don't even trap in the winter.
Kristiina (28:21)
Right.
Stacy (28:25)
And then you have a month, the rescue has a month to get them turned back into the state, all the paperwork, all the numbers, and all the, you know, vet information. And the vet has to mail out a copy to the state as well so they can match everything up, make sure there's no discrepancies.
Suse (28:38)
Oh, this reminds me of something.
Somewhat related. There were actually two points that I was hoping to make. I do think that there is some competition in New York, at least among some rescue organizations. And so when you think about these ASPCA appointments and the total number available, any rescue organization that has a lot of volunteers with the right ASPCA registration and login, they're automatically in a better position to get a lot more appointments. There are certain organizations that
Kristiina (29:04)
Hmm.
Suse (29:10)
volunteers logging in at 6 a.m. and they might get 10% of all available appointments versus you know independent rescuers or you know smaller rescue organizations where you have a handful of people maybe signing up and even there in a better position because you have a handful of people signing up for the same under the same organization but it's definitely a really tricky distribution system so I'm jealous of the vouchers.
We have none of that.
Yeah, sometimes we have spay-athons in the summer, um, where, you know, some, some charity will fund a day or a couple of days of, you know, mass low-cost spay neuter, which is great. And, you know, they usually have, um, maybe not so 10-year advance doing it for practice. Right. So, which is still better than nothing, but you definitely don't get the best vet care. And if I'm being totally honest, I'm not sure that I would send my own pet.
under those circumstances, but it's better than, you know, for a community cat, it's better than having none of that. And then Kristiina I also realized I didn't answer your question earlier about making a decision early on when you send a cat to the ASPCA, whether you send it in a trap or send them in a trap or in a carrier.
Kristiina (30:23)
Mm.
Suse (30:25)
it does feel like a lot of pressure at the morning of. When you have a cat that is on the spectrum or is so not very clearly feral, right? Is maybe afraid. It feels like you're sort of playing God because you are deciding, you know, do I send this cat as a friendlier or as a feral? And...
It doesn't feel good. I always give myself the option, right? If there's a chance I can send the cat in a carrier and I have a chance of either placing that cat or holding onto the cat for a little bit longer.
Kristiina (30:46)
Yeah.
Suse (30:55)
until I can find a foster, then I will do that. It's also not that an eartip cat will not be adopted. So sometimes we send them in a trap, but then if they turn out to be friendly, well, then you just have an eartip cat who has to get snap tested later and gets the friendly services. But it definitely feels like a lot of extra pressure on top of all the other pressures that you face as a rescuer.
Kristiina (31:18)
That makes sense. Can you guys talk a little bit again individually, and I'm gonna start with you, Suse, about how you actually go about trapping the cats. And I know I've seen you over the years using multiple different techniques, and I know you've become really good at like pulling the trap. So you go ahead, Suse, and then we'll move to you, Stacey. Then I might jump in with my crappy trapping. We'll see.
Kristiina's crappy trapping.
Suse (31:43)
CCT. No, KCT. My preferred method is, you know, just having a cat walk into a box trap. That's my favorite thing. And, you know, I set up the box trap and the cat is already trap trained and the cat will just walk in the trap snaps shut and I'm right there with my cover. That's almost never how it works, especially not in a colony setting where
Kristiina (31:46)
Yes. Yeah.
Suse (32:09)
Some of them are already fixed, so you have to be targeted. Or you don't have enough, you know, you want to get maybe the pregnant one before you get the others, or you want to get the kittens before you get the adults, things like that. So, but that's my number one. If we're just ranking like Suse's top four or five ways of trapping, box trap, nothing else. Second favorite is box trap with the bottle and string.
Kristiina (32:30)
Hehehehe
Suse (32:37)
where again the cat will go into the box trap but I'm waiting for a specific cat to go into the box strap and I'm right there and I can pull the string that is attached to a bottle which keeps the trap open and the reason why I like that is because once that box strap is shut the only rush that I'm in is to put a cover over the trap so the cat can calm down but there is no risk of the cat getting out of the trap.
which brings me to my number three, used to be my least favorite method of trapping, which is a drop trap, which is essentially a cage that falls down on the, you know, over the cat when you pull the string, but you have to be very quick to run to the box trap because especially if you have a strong or very panicky cat under, they might be able to get out by lifting up the trap.
And there was also a risk of injury because they kind of bounce around and they hit their face on the side. So that's my, it's still, I would say least favorite, but I've gotten more comfortable with it. There was a time when I botched a couple of drop trap endeavors in pretty legendary ways. So then I had, like the cats didn't get injured. I just really screwed up and cats got out. And so I've now trapped successfully with them.
Kristiina (33:37)
You've gotten very good at it.
Suse (33:54)
with the drop trap often enough that I now feel very comfortable using it. And then there's also the part where you get a friendly cat, like I did the other night, a cat just walked up to me on my friend's block at 1130 p.m. No one knew the cat. And so I called my friend, who's also a rescuer, and I said, bring me a can of food and a carrier. And I put the can of food in the carrier, the cat walked in and we closed the door. So those would be my methods. I think that...
most important part almost of trapping is the two most important parts are a schedule, right? You make sure that the cat's actually on a schedule, maybe even trap trained, so gets fed under a trap or around a trap, inside a trap for a few days. Sometimes I've had to do, there's a cat that I stalked for two years and it took months of trap training that cat.
And the other part is the community work. I do think we should talk about that too, right? Really getting to know your neighbors, knowing how they feel about the cats who feeds, when do they feed, are they open to putting a trap in their yard? So that's actually the bigger part of the work. If it was just about grabbing a trap, going out, putting some food in and waiting for the cat to go in, it would be faster and less work.
Kristiina (34:53)
Mm-hmm.
Suse (35:12)
but I also think it's some of the most fulfilling parts of the work because I've made connections in ways that I never would have connected with my community before. And, you know, we learned together, which is also really nice. Or they ask me, hey, how are those kittens doing that you trapped two years ago? And I can show them pictures of how well they're doing in their homes. So that is my whole trapping routine.
Kristiina (35:21)
Mm-hmm.
All right, And I'm totally with you on the community building. We really did that, you know, when we were living in the city on Avenue D over the 20 years that I lived there, I really became known as the lady that you go ring her doorbell if you see an any kind of animal, but especially a cat. Or if you have a cat question, I just get random people from the neighborhood being like, oh.
Stacy (35:48)
Thanks for watching.
Kristiina (35:54)
My cat's been having diarrhea. What can you not at hand them little pumpkin for cats things. And you know, it just, but it was really nice. Cause you get, you do get to meet all your neighbors. And then, and then when there were things like.
these cats that are behind me that I rescued from the creepy, like gross bodega that was across the street from us. And they were like hiding in the walls and like the grossest moldiest hoarded conditions where there were also fruits and vegetables. But I've never seen a place so filthy. The book, like someone just came and I was like, Hey, the place is handing out kittens. Like you guys should really go over there. Cause this is not right. And we went and trapped them. It took several days, like you said of, you know, trap training and being in there with handling gloves and like all of this stuff, they were filthy.
mess, but now they're happy. One of them is now an emotional support cat and living in college with our vet's daughter and her partner. And then the other two are very, very happy with a good friend of mine. And it's just such a nice story, but none of that would have happened if we hadn't built community who understood the work we were trying to do and also wanted to take part. So that's my little spiel. Now, Stacey over to you over to you in the car,
Stacy (37:02)
But yeah, I'm trying to think, how do I trap? Well, it really depends. I definitely, what you said on the community stuff, that's so spot on. And you know, if you're
getting permission to be on site on somebody's property and not just trespassing like I know of people that would just show up on site or you know some people are weird about you setting up even if you get permission. Some other people want to you know want the cats around for rodent control and blah or they don't understand the importance of spay and neuter.
Kristiina (37:26)
All right.
Stacy (37:29)
I guess my favorite standard ways of trapping are with a true catch trap. I used to use have a hearts back in the day, but they're just so loud and scary.
that I'm just not a fan of them. And I feel like the cats really can hurt themselves a lot more in those, especially when they panic and start smashing their faces. So the true catch, the nice thing about those is, you know, it's easy, you know, you get the two entrances, the back door for easy release if you get wildlife. A big thing that I always say to people when I'm training people how to trap, never leave a trap unattended, never. Because A, if you get wildlife, you need to release them.
And B, you don't know who's watching, who's in the area. And you trapping an animal, the animal sitting there, you're putting them in harm's way. So you have to be able to get over to that animal. And if the trap is uncovered, be able to cover it, like you said, to calm them down. Or to just be able to pull them from the area. With the truecatch trap, the one thing that's bad about it is where the front door is. They have the rings that slide up. If a cat's determined enough and you've got a cover on them, they could pull the cover right through.
and lift those rings and get out. And it's funny, a trapper that is local in Connecticut who has been doing it twice as long as I have, she's very experienced. She had somebody, she taught somebody how to trap. She had the, you know, like a sheet or whatever on the trap and she went to go get the cat after somebody covered the cat. And the cat did just that, she's like, the trap's empty, so she called me. She was like, I don't know, have you ever seen that? I said, yes, unfortunately. I always take like pipe cleaners or like those little twisty Ziploc.
you know, garbage bag ties and like triple, triplicate them and tie them in the middle of for the front door to the base of the trap so that they can't get out once they have them in there just to be safe. But so that's my standard way of trapping and you know, I kind of base it on the weather conditions because I'll trap out in the rain, I'll trap out in the snow and the sleet, I don't care. People are like, how do you do that? It's all about like, you know, location.
Kristiina (39:09)
Mm.
Stacy (39:31)
covering the traps properly so that they don't get soaked, they have a space to go in, because they still will come out, but just not as many of them potentially as, you know, you would get on a dry, warmer day. But I will, that's my standard way of doing it is with the True Catch, and then if I have a hard to catch cat or cat, I can't trap train. So I have trap trains a lot as well, and that's.
Wonderful helpful situation even if you've got like a trail camera to monitor in a safe environment to see what time of day they're coming That's been very helpful tool, but if I can't trap train which is a lot of times based on my locations And I have a really trapped savvy cat as we call them cats that have seen other cats trapped or won't go anywhere near it Even with all my you know tricks that I use to try to get them in
I've tried all kinds of various things and some cats fall for things and some don't because they're really smart, you know but for the ones that are tough I break out the drop trap and I like box traps too, but I haven't worked with them in years
Suse (40:36)
I have a question about the true catch. Is that the tomahawk one, the one that closes very quietly, or is it a totally different one? I need to look at that. Oh, I see.
Stacy (40:38)
Now to Kitty. Sure. Thanks for watching.
It's its own brand. Yeah, it's its own brand. So it's T-R-U-C-A-T-C-H. So they're nice because they're coated metal. I don't know if it's like a plastic coating. They're easy to clean too. I always do the rescue sanitizer on the traps. So I was doing that when I had a hose in the back area that I could spray everything down. But now that it's freezing out, I can't really do that. So I learned a trick.
recently actually from fellow trappers who've been doing it a really long time, but they bring their traps to the car wash and Yeah, I thought that was brilliant. So you go into like the per you know, the Individual car wash base where you can do, you know do it by yourself the self-serve or whatever Yeah, not like can you imagine?
Kristiina (41:35)
Oh, I thought I was picturing someone putting, putting the trap, like just shoving it through the car wash. And I was like, but did you have to put it on a dolly or something? Like how'd you send it through the car wash? Like what? I'm so dumb. That what you're saying makes a lot more sense. My God. Yes.
Stacy (41:46)
Can you imagine? Oh no you're not. No, believe me. Yeah, the self-service. It's amazing because they got the high-power washers and the soap, you know. But yeah, I did that. I felt like a lunatic too because I brought all my traps there. So there I am with like, I have like, I think six or seven true cat traps. And I have them all outside my crazy cat lady car, you know.
Suse (42:01)
Bye.
Stacy (42:11)
I'm like, well, I'm here, and my husband's spray my damn dirty car down too, right? So, because I'm paying for it.
Kristiina (42:14)
Yeah, why
So I wanna also have you guys speak a little bit about like, why are we doing this in the first place? Like what is the positive impact of TNR, not only on the community cats and the cats themselves, but also on the communities that these cats are inhabiting, right? Like, can you talk a little bit about maybe some success stories that you've had or just what you know the positive outcomes of TNR to be?
Suse (42:38)
so in terms of what are the benefits, right? I mean, there's the obvious point about, I think we all get into it because we love animals, right? I used to joke that my Instagram handle should have been the reluctant cat lady because I really am still like, I don't even know.
if I'm a cat person and you know meanwhile I currently have nine cats in my house. So there you go. But you know just like I think many other community members I felt I used to feel good about just putting out food for cats and then at some point Kristiina you were the one who connected me with a couple of local rescues who helped me get my first community cat neutered.
Kristiina (43:03)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Suse (43:24)
And after that, his girlfriend showed up in my yard and then she brought their kittens and then that's how I was introduced to trapping, right? And so I think it starts with, there are these cats, they seem like they need food and shelter, oh, and they need homes. But then once you start seeing these cats everywhere, I think most folks think to themselves, well, what am I gonna do now, right? I can't find homes for all of them. And so,
I mean, the obvious benefit is you kind of stop this sad cycle of reproduction again, that was never their choice and that is a really, really hard life.
I think right now there is unfortunately a lot of discussion that seems very biased, that's either pro-cat or pro-bird that's happening, you know, where the effectiveness of TNR programs is being questioned. There was an article recently in The New Yorker by Jonathan Franzen that frankly was an opinion piece, but, you know, there was a podcast even more recently, again, by a professor who turns out to be a birder and conservationist.
Kristiina (44:08)
Mm.
Yeah, it was.
Suse (44:29)
but who wrote a book about cats being cuddly killers with a catchy title, right? And so all that is to say I think there is the obvious impact of you're just trying to have fewer cats on the street and you're trying to make the lives of those that are out there easier either by stopping the reproductive cycle or ideally finding them safe homes.
For me personally, hi Mimi, for me personally, you know, I need to do something when I see something. So one of my favorite, favorite iconic rescuers in New York, Sassy, I always quote her both in rescue and in my corporate job. I say don't talk about it, be about it.
And so I just had to start doing something about it. So it's good for my mental health. It is the most fulfilling thing I've ever done with my life, I would say. It connects me to nature in an urban environment. It connects me to people in my community. It gave me a sense of purpose when I had a big personal loss and the pandemic was happening. So to me personally, it does a lot. It's created a whole different group of friends that can relate to me in a way that
no one else really can. And so I would say there's all of that, you know, that to me is kind of the day-to-day success, being able to hopefully educate some folks around me. And then...
You know, I mean, every cat that I can help fix or, you know, that I find a home for, like, I know all of their stories. And I think the sweetest moments are there are times when, you know, I rescue a cat, I find them a home. And then later I might speak to the feeder who says, I never knew what happened to that cat. I thought that cat got run over and I can show them here's a picture. This happened recently for a couple of them.
for me, I could show them a picture of not only did you help keep that cat alive, right, and that cat is alive now, look at this cat here cuddled up, you know, in a warm bed with a kitty friend. And it's so wonderful, right, to be able to do that. Um.
Kristiina (46:36)
Yes.
Suse (46:37)
And then I guess I'll speak about one other case that was probably the most emotional rescue, not for me necessarily, but for everyone involved, which was this colony of cats that was on the grounds of a nursing home here in Brooklyn. They contacted me on Instagram. You know, it was a lot of back and forth. And you know, at one point my friend and I rolled up with a bunch of traps into this nursing home and the people working there were like, who are you? What are you doing with all these metal cages?
Kristiina (46:52)
Mm-hmm.
You're here to trap the senior citizens. Gonna get them.
Stacy (47:07)
Hehehehehehe
Suse (47:10)
And these cats have brought so much joy to the residents there who were either seniors or some of them, you know, were nonverbal. And
and they had socialized these cats by letting them jump into their lap in the wheelchairs, you know, they were, my god, they were feeding them milk and potato chips. It was horrifying, but they still, you know, were doing what they thought was right. And so, collectively, I ended up actually pulling only one cat and then I had to leave town and Flatbush cats ended up getting in there and finishing the rest of the colony. But trapping this initial cat,
and having someone who was nonverbal type out on their phone, please find him a good home and read it out to me while other people are crying because this cat is finally being rescued. I mean, that's insane. You know, like to be able to do that for people and for the animal and for the community is, I mean, it's just so fulfilling. I don't know how to not do that.
Kristiina (48:00)
Of course.
That's a great answer. Yeah.
Stacy (48:10)
that's incredible. I love stuff like that. Yeah, I don't know. I could probably talk for days and years knowing me about success stories. I always say the same thing, that it is the most rewarding thing I've ever done with my life, as well as the most devastating, because it's very emotionally taxing.
Kristiina (48:30)
We lost her, ROT ROW.
Suse (48:32)
Hopefully she'll be back.
Kristiina (48:33)
What advice would you give to somebody who's interested in getting into cat rescue work or starting their own rescue or just getting into doing TNR? What advice would you have for somebody who's interested in doing that?
Suse (48:44)
Great question. So my first piece of advice would be just get started. Don't be afraid. Take the TNR class. It doesn't mean that that's what you're going to do with the rest of your life with all your free time. That's just some of us. So just get started and see. See if you like it. See if it gives you something.
Kristiina (49:02)
What's the TNR class? Do you want to tell people what the TNR class is?
Suse (49:06)
Oh, yeah. So, well, you can Google TNR certification and usually you will get a result that I think normally starts with neighborhood cats, but it is a class that I think it's an online class. They run, I want to say once a month, I think it costs $10 and takes a couple hours and you learn the basics of what is trap, no to return. Why do you do it? Here's how you trap.
And it's really just the first step for all of it, right? But this TNR certification opens some doors already. It might mean that you can check out traps from trap banks, like the ASPCAs It might mean that some vets will give you a rescue discount. So it's kind of the basic step of getting into rescue. I will say that I trapped my first couple cats without being TNR certified. But I did it later.
Kristiina (49:56)
Right.
Suse (50:00)
So get that done, you know, it's $10 well spent. Don't be afraid of what you're going to see. I do think that some people say, I feel so bad and you know, but again, don't talk about it, be about it, right? The only way to feel better, hopefully, well, you can either ignore it or if that's not your speed, you start doing something about it.
Kristiina (50:22)
Yes.
Suse (50:23)
Get started, then start building a network. I think a lot of rescuers will be happy to help newer rescuers show them the ropes. Maybe start giving some appointments or things like that. So find a local network. A good way to do that is by just Googling your town or your neighborhood with, again, local TNR, and then seeing if there's a Facebook page that comes up or something like that.
Kristiina (50:47)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Suse (50:52)
And then the last piece that I think is really important is to not get lost in it. I do think that because of all the, both the devastation and the joy that is part of the work constantly, it can be kind of addictive and it can also feel like, well, I can never stop because, you know, if I don't help, things will only get worse and, you know, animals will die.
Kristiina (51:16)
Yes.
Suse (51:17)
which is true, but just like a doctor needs to go sleep so that they can perform a good surgery the next day, rescuers need to rest. And I have definitely run into that and I am still constantly managing my exhaustive levels. And also you have to have some non-rescue friends to be honest. It's important to have balance in your life.
Kristiina (51:30)
same.
But I do think that's the psychological piece is something else I wanted to talk about. And we can always do this at a later time too, because I think we're gonna have a part two and a part three of this because we got to like.
5% of my questions because we just were talking so organically, which I think was great, but there's so much more, I think, to discuss in talking about TNR and rescue work.
Suse (52:01)
would say that part is really important to talk about, just like I do think we should also at some point talk about how you fund this kind of work and what is OK to ask for and not to ask for, because I think rescuers would burn out a little bit less if.
Kristiina (52:10)
Yes, that was a huge part of it too.
Suse (52:23)
They felt more comfortable asking for help, whether that's financial or logistical, right? And I think it's important. There was someone, a rescue friend of mine, who told me somewhat early on, you know why I don't feel bad about asking about money is, one, I didn't put the cats out on the street. I'm already providing a community service. And two, I'm already paying with my time. I shouldn't have to put all my personal money into it. The truth is, we all put a ton of our personal money into it. But.
Kristiina (52:50)
Yes.
Suse (52:50)
I finally at some point stopped feeling bad about putting an Amazon wish list on there, you know, on my Instagram so that people could send me food. And that, not only does it help logistically, it also helps with your morale when people see the work you do and support it in small ways. And you know, if someone sends me a catnip banana, it costs them $8 and it made my day. And
Kristiina (52:56)
Same.
Suse (53:17)
I think that is something that the TNR classes should talk more about, how you build that support and infrastructure.
Kristiina (53:23)
and how social media plays a big role in that, how it is very helpful to be good at social media because I don't know that like, in my cases, just speaking for me, that we would have been able to do all of the rescue work that we do, especially with the serious medical cases that we have encountered without the social media following that we have because the followers are so kind and so generous and so involved and so happy to help that it has been astounding. And like you said,
Some days we'll get a box, you know, from Amazon from the wishlist of just like a little bag of food or whatever and a nice note that's just like thinking about you guys and your fosters. And it's so kind that it moves us to tears. And we have a little stack of all the notes that come with them to just keep for a day when you're maybe not feeling so great or so positive about what you're up to. And you can just read through those and be like, you know what? People care. Like people are invested in the fact that we're doing this work on days where it feels like it's just us.
Suse (54:21)
I don't know any rescuers who feel really comfortable asking for help, right? Also because you feel like there are other rescuers who might need it more, right? So it's not even just if I was the only one, maybe it would feel easier to ask, but you also feel like, you know, it's a limited pool of resources. But again, those are things that where community helps, where and I'm so lucky that
Kristiina (54:31)
Yes!
Yeah.
Suse (54:48)
A lot of the rescuers who are in my community, we help each other out, you know, and whether that's like reposting each other's fundraisers or, you know, foster requests or things like that.
Kristiina (54:54)
Mm-hmm.
Suse (54:56)
It's always somehow worked out and I could not do even a fraction of what I do if it wasn't for the support of those other independent rescuers, for the support of Brooklyn Animal Action. Now I feel like I'm giving an Oscar speech, but it really is. I mean, for me now, I can so much more easily say, yes, I will take in this cat because I know there's some sort of an infrastructure to fall back on. And really it starts with my husband who is so tolerant.
Kristiina (55:11)
Do it!
Right.
Suse (55:26)
but in my own pets and so forth. But it is also the other rescuers and it is Brooklyn Animal Action who allow me to tap into their network. So it really, it's so fulfilling in so many ways.
Kristiina (55:40)
Yes.
And you'd also like to thank the Academy.
Suse (55:44)
I would also like to thank the Academy and you because you got me into all of it in the first place by saying why don't you put a litter box out in your yard?
Kristiina (55:46)
No!
Mm-hmm. Nuh!
So I just want to say thank you so much to my guests, to Suse and to Stacey. Thank you so much for being on this podcast, but also thank you so much for doing the amazing rescue work that you guys do for your dedication to cats and community cats and doing TNR and everything that you do. And I, as I said before, I think this is going to be a multi-part discussion. So this is just part one. So viewers, listeners, you can stay tuned for parts two to infinity,
Go on forever talking about community cat and TNR work. So just stay tuned and thank you again so much. All right, have a great day you guys.