Kristiina (00:33)
Hi and welcome to another episode of Hiss and Tell. I am your host Kristiina Wilson and with me today is Julie.
Posluns founder of Cat School, which is online clicker training for cats, and she's also an applied animal behaviorist. Welcome Julie. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Julie (00:49)
Thanks for having me, Kristiina.
Kristiina (00:50)
and thanks to Mimi, my cohost here, um, who will probably meow into the microphone cause she does not like it when I do this. every podcast I do, she's like up here like, and she's going to tap me on my face in a minute. so do you want to tell it, tell me a little bit about your background, your education, um, and we'll just kind of go from there.
Julie (00:51)
Hehe
So I started working with animals in like...
2004, I took a dog training course and I became a dog trainer and I ended up getting a dog that I thought was going to be my demo dog and it turned out that he was very aggressive and none of the techniques I had learned at my program had helped and I just realized I didn't know anything after even after I had taken this dog training program. So then I stumbled upon a book called Click to
Kristiina (01:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (01:42)
me to clicker training. I started working with my dog. I was like, wow, this is amazing. I was living in downtown Toronto and like having an aggressive dog there is just, you know, you know, New York. It's like so hard. So it was really hard. And the clicker was like, it felt like magic because I suddenly had this dog who would see a trigger like a skateboard. He hated skateboarders, kids, everything. He even ripped someone's jeans.
Kristiina (01:54)
Yeah, right.
Oh my gosh! Hahaha!
Julie (02:12)
after a skateboarder, grabbed his jeans, ripped them, like it was bad. So anyway the clicker was the tool that I used to help.
Kristiina (02:16)
Mm.
Julie (02:20)
get him under control and be able to walk him. And the other thing about the clicker was that I enjoyed, there were days where I didn't really feel like taking him out into the world and having to be, you know, always on guard and stuff. And I would just start teaching him tricks and that really tired him out. So that was kind of my intro into clicker training and working with training dogs. And then I decided, because I realized I knew so little, I decided to become a dog walker instead.
Kristiina (02:22)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (02:49)
me on a dog. I went to start from like just starting my business to having employees and loving dog walking for like 10 years at least I was doing that. And then I decided I wanted to go back to school because I was so interested in behavior and dog interaction. So I went to do my master's in cognitive and behavioral ecology at Memorial University and I studied dog-dog interactions and then after I finished my thesis I was like
Kristiina (03:03)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (03:19)
and was kind of deciding between doing something still in the dog training world and then I found a cat outside and so that was just like I was like what am I doing now and then this cat shows up and I'm like okay I started training him I put a few of his videos on my dog trick
Kristiina (03:27)
Hehehehe
Julie (03:38)
account on Instagram and the next thing I knew I had like all these people asking me how did you train your cat? How did you train your cat? And I realized that people were interested in it and so that kind of started to get me into this idea that maybe there was Something there. Of course, I didn't know much about like what I what people would be interested in But then I just started, you know Trying a few things like offering like teach your cat a paw shake a secret paw shake That was kind of my first little thing
Kristiina (03:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yes!
Julie (04:07)
And then I started putting together a little kit, and then I just launched Cat School. I just kind of went all in and said, you know what? This is a great service. People are wanting to train their cats. Let's, you know, let's do this. And that was how I started Cat School, and that was like in 2018.
Kristiina (04:28)
All right. I just, just as a disclaimer, I have used cat school with our cats. Um, I used it with Steve. I've used it with Mimi and kitten man. they have all been clicker trained, And then, uh, Steve, as, as I think most people know was also harness trained and would go out and walk with me.
but I love recommending cat school to all of my behavior clients because clicker training is such great intellectual stimulation, which we'll get into talking about later on. Um, but I just want to kind of put that upfront that, that I can't be totally, non-biased in this interview because I have 100% use your website and absolutely recommend it pretty much to all of my clients because you know, when you have cat behavior issues, you pretty much almost always want to add intellectual stimulation.
Julie (04:54)
Thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Yeah, it's so helpful.
Kristiina (05:11)
to the mix, which we'll talk about. So maybe you wanna talk a little bit about clicker training and how it is different from other methods of training for cats and just let people know what it is. And also just, I think most people don't even understand that you can train cats
Julie (05:27)
Right, right.
Yeah, so I think there's either no training cats or clicker training. I don't even think there's other training methods. It's like either you have people saying cats aren't trainable or you have people clicker training their cats. Because yeah, I think most people don't think cats are trainable. And then they start clicker training and they're like, wait a second, this is not as hard as I thought it would be. So basically clicker training is just positive reinforcement training. So, you know, we're using food to reinforce good behaviors.
Kristiina (05:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ha ha ha.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (05:59)
But the addition of the clicker, that's a marker. So it's like a handheld tool that makes a clicking sound. And we use it to pinpoint the behavior that we want to reinforce. And the example I like to give is if you're trying to teach your cat to raise a paw and you get them to raise their paw, we can talk about some of the different ways that you can do that. But let's just say that it happens and you want to let them know that they are getting a treat for raising their paw. You click the split second they raise their paw.
Kristiina (06:18)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (06:28)
Imagine you didn't use this marker, that your cat puts their paw down and then you give them a treat. They're not gonna know if they're getting the treat for sitting or for raising their paw. take a step back though, you have to first tell your cat that one click equals one treat. So they hear the click, they get a treat, they hear the click, they get a treat, and you've warmed them up with this exercise so they understand the meaning of the clicker. And then when you're actually trying to capture a specific behavior,
split second your cat does that and they know, oh, I'm getting a treat for raising my paw. And since behavior that gets reinforced gets repeated, you get your cat repeating their paw and then you can add the signal to it. So we get the cat doing the behavior first and then we can pair it with the signal that we wanna use. So for teaching fist bump, once we know we have that paw lifting, we can put the signal together and start asking for the behavior that we want.
Kristiina (07:04)
Mm-hmm.
since we just talked about capturing, do you want to talk a little bit about shaping and how that's a little bit different from capturing a behavior?
Julie (07:23)
Mm-hmm.
So yeah, so I use like, I would say, you know, combination of stuff, but like for the paw, that would be a good example of like how you could shape behavior. So what I do for that trick is I get the cat to put their, I put a treat in a little cup and the cup should be too small for their face. So they have to use their paw. And then once they use their paw or they're putting their paw in the cup to get the treat, I click so then they know, oh, whenever I use my paw, I get a treat.
Kristiina (07:37)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (07:59)
that behavior so I'm shaping the cat so the next I would say shaping step in that is to put no treat in the cup and continue to get the cat to put their paw in the cup so they're now they now understand when I put my paw in the cup I get a treat and then I can raise the cup so that's the next kind of shaping piece is where we raise the cup and then I start putting my hand over the cup so by shaping we mean just you know getting the cat to do the different behaviors
Kristiina (08:09)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (08:29)
time until we have like the final product. Yeah, capturing.
Kristiina (08:33)
Right. And then, and then yeah, cap. Yeah. Do you want to tell what capturing is?
Julie (08:37)
Yeah, so capturing is a good one to use for like teaching lying down, since your cat lies down all the time. And so if you wanna teach lying down, you might wait till you see your cat lying down and clicking the second that they do that. And it would take a few times for your cat to understand that they're getting clicked for lying down. They might be like, why did I just get the click? But over time, especially if you keep the situation or the context very specific, so maybe on a table or something
Kristiina (08:41)
Mm-hmm.
Hehehe
Julie (09:07)
or one place, I would probably say keep the place specific in the beginning, and your cat starts seeing that every time they lie down at this specific place, they get a treat. Another way that I might do that is I might reinforce a cat for staying like on a chair, I'd give them a bunch of treats. Eventually they're like, oh, I'm going to be here for a while, so I'm going to lie down. And then the split second they lie down, I click. And so they start knowing when I might as well just get on the chair and lie down because that's what she wants. You know, that's the...
Kristiina (09:07)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Julie (09:37)
by capturing we mean wait for the cat to offer the behavior and then click and keep repeating that until they make the association oh that's the behavior she wants me to do and it can take time and it can actually be kind of funny what you get because you're not getting it you know you might get your cat just like they go from sitting to like flopping that's really funny so like if you teach down from capturing you get a different down than if you teach from shaping
Kristiina (09:51)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Julie (10:07)
I teach a down from shaping or luring in a combination of targeting and all this other stuff but is they lie down flat like a sphinx position. Whereas if with capturing they tend to do a flop so you actually kind of get like these different behavior. It's kind of funny.
Kristiina (10:17)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Do you want to tell us, since you just used a few other, training terms, do you want to just kind of edify our listeners as to what those mean?
Julie (10:25)
terms. Yeah, so targeting would be like…
Yeah, you're getting your cat to touch your fingers. Your finger can be a target. So you teach them to just touch your finger and then you get a treat and then you teach them to follow your finger. So say you're getting them, you wanna get them to jump on a chair so you can guide your finger towards the chair. They jump on the chair and they touch your fingers. That would be targeting. And you can use all sorts of different targets. I have like so many different targets, but a target stick is a great example
Kristiina (10:33)
Yeah.
Julie (10:58)
touch their nose to the end of a stick. And then you can teach them all sorts of tricks like spin, going around objects, leg weaves, because they're going under your leg to touch their nose to the stick. So that's targeting. And what was the other one? Oh, luring. Oh, luring is when you put a treat to their nose and you guide them around like a magnet. And that can be helpful with like balancing behaviors. So like if you wanna get your cat to go up on their back paws, you could lure them up.
Kristiina (11:13)
Loring. Yes.
Yes.
Julie (11:28)
finger or with food into a certain position.
Kristiina (11:33)
How do you generally recommend that people introduce their cats to clicker training, especially if the people and, you know, obviously the cats are unfamiliar with it?
Julie (11:43)
So.
I mean, the first thing is we just, we do have to teach the click, but I don't, I know some people will say, well, something like charge the clicker, which is just click and give treats, click and give treats. And I don't really do that because I feel like they get it so fast regardless. So what I do is the first skill I kind of install is attention. So I throw a treat away and then the cat comes back to get another one. At least that's the goal. That's my first skill. I wanna see, do you have treats that the cat values? So if I throw the treat away and the cat comes back,
Kristiina (11:47)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Julie (12:14)
they come back to me I click to say you know you for coming back you're getting another treat and then I gave them a treat near me and throw another one away and then we repeat that and by the time we do you know whatever five or six of them the cat I'm just starting to understand when they hear the click they're gonna get a treat so it's already we've kind of worked on attention at the same time as you know letting them know what the clicker is the only thing where this kind of falls apart is if the cat's scared of the sound and
Kristiina (12:20)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (12:45)
other stuff to help them overcome the sound of the clicker.
Kristiina (12:47)
Right. Okay. I know it's funny, there've been so many like clicker training controversies over the past few years and controversies are just papers that have come out. And I know there was one that was kind of about charging the clicker and whether or not it was worth it. And I don't know if you, hi Kevin, if you have thoughts about that or not, if you don't, we don't have to talk about it. Yeah, right.
Julie (12:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I don't do it.
Well, I don't do that just because with cats, I'm so careful. With dogs, whatever. I'm like, whatever goes. They're so, you know, they're easy. But with cats, I don't like overfeeding them. So I'm always, in fact, it kind of is bad because sometimes I cut corners to not give my cat too many treats and people will say, it didn't work. And I have to remember to always like be careful and show all the steps. But like with my cat, I try very hard not to give him too much food. So same with charging the clicker. I wouldn't like,
Kristiina (13:16)
Yeah.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (13:39)
wouldn't want to waste five to ten treats on the cat not doing anything by just giving them a treat for hearing the sound so I always make them work even if it's just chasing treats I will always make the cat work for it because they just don't get the same activity and actually like my dog's gone for two big debauches gonna go for two big walks today but my dog my cat you know I'm gonna do my best but she's not gonna he's not gonna get as much exercise as she gets
Kristiina (13:44)
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah. Have you found, this is a two-part question, I guess. Um, have you found it to be effective to just use dry kibble, which is what I used to do with our cats because Steve was also a little bit chunky. So I didn't want to use treats. Um, but he was a pig. So like just using dry kibble was fine. Um, yeah.
Julie (14:19)
Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely, I love like if people, that's one of the best things because if people are already feeding their cats kibble.
then I just say, not all you have to do, because that's not so easy, but it's healthier for your cat to feed dry food. So switching to dry food and giving them kibble as treats, I think is a great way to have a long-term training opportunity with them. They already like the kibble, so you can use it and they're tiny pieces. So each one is a great treat. And I'm an advocate for moisture-rich food. So I like encouraging people to feed wet food meals
Kristiina (14:34)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Julie (14:59)
whatever. And then using the kibble, reserving all the kibble for food puzzles or training. That's kind of my thing. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Kristiina (15:05)
Yeah, that's exactly what we do in our house is just all of these food puzzles around the house that have the dry food. And then, you know, they have to they have to work for it. But that's also part of the intellectual stimulation and part of how we have 11 cats in the house that get along because they have so much stimulation. They don't need to aggress on each other.
Julie (15:13)
Yeah.
You have to work for it, yeah.
Yeah.
Kristiina (15:26)
So that's just another good tool for people. If you have a multi cat household, lots of intellectual stimulation, lots of food puzzles so that they feel like number one, they know where their next little snack or meal is coming from. They can provide for themselves. So it's building confidence and it's giving them something to do with their brain. So they can kind of do a little bit of a hunting sequence. In our house, we have a lot of bird feeders around. So we kind of use them watching the birds as like the hunting part. And then they can play with the puzzle, the puzzle mice get their dry food out. And then you sort of have the whole hunting sequence.
Julie (15:52)
Mm-hmm.
Kristiina (15:56)
there so that's really helpful
Um, what do you do with a cat who may not be food motivated? How do you handle that?
Julie (16:03)
Yeah, so there's a lot of layers to that. And unfortunately,
you do have to recommend a dietary change. And if the food's being left out all day, obviously that's a first easy step to small scheduled meals. But if they're gonna get an abundance of food, they're not gonna be food motivated. And so it does get tricky when you have to start, cause I'm not a feline nutritionist. And so I don't wanna be like, do this with your cat, but that's not what I,
Kristiina (16:15)
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Julie (16:37)
to step in and say like this is what you're going to need to do if you want to food motivate your cat and hopefully at the end of the outcome is that they're feeding their cat healthier diet because also it's junk food if you're feeding junk food and i like to use this example you know if someone eats mcdonald's the only dessert that's going to be worthwhile for them is like a sundae whereas if someone eats broccoli a granola bar is going to be exciting or an apple is going to be
Kristiina (16:59)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (17:06)
understanding of how junk food is going to affect your cat's food motivation. And the healthier you feed them, the more opportunities there are for desserts. And so I encourage people to always feed their cats really healthy if they want a lot of opportunities for training.
Kristiina (17:25)
so can you tell us some common behaviors that we can train with clicker training and how people should decide what behaviors they should focus on?
Julie (17:33)
So there's all the basic training ones. So like sit down, recall, so anything like that. Then there's all the tricks, which are endless. So, you know, spin, jumping on and off objects.
Kristiina (17:41)
Mm-hmm.
Great.
Julie (17:49)
Like I was saying, leg weaves, jumping through the arm hoops, fetch, all these kinds of skills. Then there's the practical skills, like leash, we could work on leash walking, going into a carrier, and then there's the cooperative care skills, like nail trims, teeth brushing, all of that. So there's kind of like the four groups of skills, but I see everything as a trick. So I was like, everything's a trick, really. It's just a trick.
Kristiina (17:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah. Ha ha ha.
Well, I think getting a cat to let you brush its teeth is 100% a trick. That is, that's a trick I've never accomplished. That's, that's an amazing trick. Um, we have a cat getting a dental in five extractions as we speak. there's three more in the lineup. So, Oh, I mean, when you have 11 cats, this is what happens, right? Um,
Julie (18:19)
Yeah, yeah.
Oh no, geez, no.
It's reality.
Kristiina (18:37)
But I could definitely use that course on. I'm going to go explore how to do that.
Julie (18:39)
Use some tips. Yeah, I do have a YouTube video on teeth brushing.
Kristiina (18:46)
Okay. I'm going to check that out
Can you talk a little bit about the importance of being consistent and the importance of timing when doing clicker training?
Julie (18:48)
Mwah.
Well, I mean, consistency...
I think it's important, but I would also say that like cats have good memories. So I don't think people should feel the pressure that they have to do it like every day. And there's always times where I bring back skills of my cat and I'm always amazed at like, oh, wow, we haven't worked on this in like forever. And you remember. I think the consistency part comes in nicely when the cat starts asking you to do the training. That's what we really want because I actually had a funny
Kristiina (19:01)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (19:24)
and she's like, I'm having trouble graduating from grade three. I almost wanted to drop out, but I would have dropped out when my cat likes it so much. I was like, is this a compliment? I'm not sure. But anyway.
Kristiina (19:32)
Oh
I think it was an attempt at a compliment.
Julie (19:41)
So, yeah, so the consistency is funny because I think, you know, it's like your dog telling you you've got to take them for a walk. Your cat's here saying, let's do something. And so they make you consistent if they like doing it, which is nice. The timing with the clicker, it, you know, obviously it's important if you click at the wrong time, you're going to give your cat the wrong information. So it's better not even to use a clicker if your timing is not good.
Kristiina (20:08)
Right.
Julie (20:10)
But you do want to be precise when you're trying to communicate with an animal. So obviously getting your timing in check is a good thing. And that's, you know, it's important just to start with easy skills where we're not working on like harder things in the beginning. So you can get a chance to like practice your timing and stuff.
Kristiina (20:27)
Yeah, that makes sense. Can you talk a little bit about how you could do this without an actual clicker for people who may not have the ability in a hand to use a clicker, how they could mark that in other ways?
Julie (20:41)
Yeah, so they can definitely use a verbal marker like yes.
Kristiina (20:45)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (20:46)
or good and so if you're working on sit, as soon as your cat sits, you could say yes and then you give them a treat. They touch your finger, yes, and give them a treat. So you could totally use a verbal marker for when you don't have to be that precise. So like for the paw trick, it would be harder because by the time you say yes, your cat might put their paw down. But for things that they're a little slower on, like the jumping over your arm, that's a good example.
you're not really needing to click at a split second. You can just give your cat the treat over when they're on the other side of your arm. And that's just say yes and give them a treat.
That's exciting.
Kristiina (21:24)
Yes.
I think really that cats, I think it's really important for listeners to know that cats generally love doing this, that cats are very intellectually curious animals by nature. And I think, you know, anyone who has a cat knows that, that they see that cats love to investigate things and they always kind of want to know what's going on and what's new. And so doing this kind of work is actually really fun for them. It's not like a drag, like we might think about like, oh, school, like that school sucks. And like, we don't, we don't want to go to school, but your cat doesn't think that.
Julie (21:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kristiina (21:55)
cat most of the time, your cat is going to be really excited to have something kind of intellectually rigorous to do with its time. And it's going to be super excited any time it sees you bring out that target stick or the clicker or all of your tools, you know, and I had all my stuff in like a little silver fanny pack and I'd bring it out of my, my cat cupboard. They'd all be like, Ooh, yay, it's time to train. And so I think for people who may be a little bit wary, like I don't want to make my cats go to school. Like it's really not that.
Julie (22:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kristiina (22:26)
they're going to be really excited about learning because they don't get to leave the house and go learn new things. They're just stuck in the house. So it's great for them, them to do this. Yes.
Julie (22:31)
Mm-hmm.
And they're in control too. Like it's like if cats, if it's important for cats to be independent and be in control, then clicker training is, you know, it's up to them to participate. There's no, we're not forcing them. They still get their regular meals, you know, they just get extra dessert if they want to work, you know, if they want to do something fun for it, they get the dessert. So it's, yeah.
Kristiina (22:51)
Right. Ha ha ha.
Yeah. Can you tell me if you have any strategies for what people who are living in multi cat households can do to work with cats with clicker training? If they want to work with one specific cat only, should they try to work with a bunch of cats at once? What is the best kind of angle of attack for having a bunch of cats and doing clicker training?
Julie (23:16)
I mean, I really like when everyone gets the opportunity to be involved. But if people are getting stressed about it, they can certainly, or at least in the beginning when they want to install some of the first skills, they can separate their cuts. But most people will say they can't separate their cuts anyway. So we end up in this place where we have to put them together. And for that, I say to structure it like children in a classroom. Each
Kristiina (23:20)
Mm-hmm.
Right. Yeah.
Julie (23:40)
cat has a spot that they need to stay at and when it's not their turn they're getting treats for staying at their spot and most cats like to just be at spots and watch what's going on anyway so it's usually not too challenging. If they're super motivated and they're jumping off the chair to get the treat you just have to feed them more treats at their spot until they learn that you know that parking spot is valuable or that spot in the classroom I call it like structuring your classroom
Kristiina (23:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (24:09)
just be encouraging them all to go on their chairs or I use like the feline cots and they're just you know staying on their cot and getting treats and then you kind of just do one simple thing with one cat get them back on their cot give them a treat do it with the other cat and in the beginning you can even just do the skills on the cot so something like fist bump you can do on the cot and so no one even is even really moving off until you get a bit more you know control.
Kristiina (24:17)
Mm-hmm.
Right. Okay.
I wanted to talk a little bit about behavioral issues like aggression and anxiety and how using clicker training as a behavioral modification strategy or as intellectual stimulation can be helpful. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that from your perspective and then I can jump in with my dumb thoughts?
Julie (24:53)
Mm-hmm.
So the aggression...
It depends on like what you're working on, but if you're obviously, if you're working, well, if you're working on feline aggression, like with other cats, then you're going to want to start teaching skills that could be helpful in preventing incidences. So for example, let's say you have one cat who targets another cat. Well, what we're gonna work on is teaching that cat to stay at their spot while the other cat walks in and out of the room, for instance. So stuff like that,
Kristiina (25:07)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (25:30)
you know, the first thing we ask is what do we want our cat to do instead? And then we start working towards, you know, teaching them that skill. So if we want them to stay at their spot, that kind of thing. And then I think the other question was with anxiety. That would be a good opportunity to use clicker training for confidence building. So with cats who are anxious, you will want to work on kind of showing them that when they try new things
Kristiina (25:44)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (25:58)
being brave or being bold gets reinforced. So any sort of opportunity to reinforce them for you know investigating something, trying something new, that can start to build their confidence and teach them that you know it's fun to try new things and be bold and experiment and you know they're gonna get they're gonna get rewards or reinforcement for trying things and you know so
Kristiina (26:17)
Hehehehehehehehe
Julie (26:28)
with aggression towards humans. So like one example, they're all, obviously every context is different, but aggression towards humans, if you have a cat that's, when you walk into a room that's biting your ankles, for instance, that can be a common one. We might say, well, what do you want your cat to do when you walk into the room? And someone will say, well, I don't want him to bite me. I'm like, well, I want him to sit at his place. So again, you can walk into the room. The second the cat notices you but doesn't move, click, and then throw a treat.
Kristiina (26:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Right.
Julie (26:58)
opposite way so you're creating more distance and then on their way back watch them as soon as they sit, click, throw a treat so they start learning oh when she walks into the room if I sit I get treats. So you just have to frame it of what you want the cat to do. Obviously humans like to do like I don't want my cat to do that. We're all pretty bad about that you know with each other don't do that. Yeah we do.
Kristiina (27:18)
Yes.
Well, we have a negativity bias, right? We really do as humans and it's, it's hard to, to reframe that. And that's something that I try to emphasize with my, my cats and something that I really learned from.
Julie (27:30)
Yeah.
Kristiina (27:35)
The first IAABC conference that I ever went to, like 800 years ago, not really, it was like six years ago probably, but it was really that sentence that you said, which was, what do you wanna see instead, right? Instead of thinking, well, I don't want this, it was that you have to teach clients, or you have to think yourself, well, instead of I don't want this, what would I rather they be doing instead, and then work towards that? And I think that's really important for people, even if they're just trying to work with their cats on their own,
Julie (27:41)
Mm-hmm.
that, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristiina (28:04)
like you can't just say no, you have to give an alternate activity. Yeah. Sorry, I totally interrupted you again with my dumb thoughts. So were you done? OK, sorry.
Julie (28:08)
Exactly.
No, no, I mean, yeah, and your thoughts aren't dumb. They're absolutely not dumb at all. Add them in.
Kristiina (28:20)
I'm not the expert on this, so the last thing I wanted to ask you about clicker training and you, you may or may not have thoughts on this is about that paper that came out in 2021 that I feel like at least everyone and you know, with my friends, we're all a Twitter about it because most of them are dog trainers. Um, so they use clicker training a lot. Um, that was the click is not the trick that was, you know, they came out being like, Oh, clickers are not, you know, effective and blah,
Julie (28:40)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristiina (28:45)
blah blah. I just am curious if you had any thoughts about that paper.
Julie (28:49)
Yeah, I remember seeing that and feeling like a little like wah-wah. But then I was like, okay, well, first of all...
We know that the food is the most important part anyway. Like, I mean, that's why when people say, when can I take the food away, you say, you can't. You have to keep reinforcing your cat So we know the food is the power, the power behind the behavior modification or learning new skills. But the second thing is, you know, I think the more precise behaviors, it's gonna be more valuable. So you can look at some of the behaviors in that paper
Kristiina (28:59)
Right.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (29:27)
Okay, you know, maybe if we would have added in a few where there needed to be more precision, you know, someone who's trying to capture a split second action, we're going to see different results. So I think, you know, the behaviors that they kind of used were pretty basic and the other thing is, you know, it'd be interesting to do the study on cats too.
Kristiina (29:36)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Julie (29:49)
But from a big picture perspective, I'm also like, what is, why wouldn't it work to give more information? It only does that kind of only wouldn't apply if the instructions are very easy. So as long as we start looking at something that would require more information, I think it will be more valuable because you are giving the animal more information. So it's just I feel like it's related to those skills.
Kristiina (30:09)
Right.
Julie (30:19)
new skills, but I think that if they were trying to teach a complex, something more complicated, they might get different results.
Kristiina (30:30)
I agree. And again, it's just one paper. A lot of people have called the methods into some question. It is just about dogs. And people have been using clickers with animals for the longest time
And I think that's kind of why the behavior community was in such an uproar with this paper because it just sort of poo-pooed things that people have been doing for a long time.
Julie (30:51)
Mm-hmm.
Kristiina (30:51)
I would also love to see some examples of cats because I think in a lot of behavior science that ends up being applied, I read a lot of papers that are about cat behavior or cat medication like fluoxetine in cats or CBD in cats. And the cats are always the side note to the paper which has been mostly about dogs. And cats and dogs are just thrown together because they're the most common pets, I guess, that we have. But...
Julie (31:11)
Mm-hmm.
Kristiina (31:17)
Cats and dogs couldn't be more different both in terms of behavior and how they sort of look at the world and how they have been Socialized or not socialized rather
even how they metabolize medication is totally different. So it kind of reminds me of how so much of Western medicine, everything has been tested on men and then just applied across the board to women as well. And it just doesn't really behoove anyone to do that. So this is another rant for me now that is probably not even making sense, but I do wish that.
Julie (31:37)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kristiina (31:49)
that more papers were actually about cats rather than like, here's this dog study that can be extrapolated to cats, which to me doesn't make a lot of sense.
Julie (31:56)
Mm-hmm.
Kristiina (31:59)
So I just want to touch on leash walking a little bit because you have that whole module also in cat school, if you want to just talk a little bit about leash walking and how you go about training cats.
to do leash walking. First of all, is leash walking something that all cat owners should consider? Is it suitable only for certain cats? Are there certain specific things to consider before you attempt to leash train a cat?
Julie (32:24)
I think it has to do with the environment outside your house, because if you're in a building or you have a busy street, then it's going to be very challenging. So I think if you don't have the right set up, then that's kind of a deal breaker.
Kristiina (32:27)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Julie (32:40)
So if you've got the yard, you've got the porch, you've got the quiet neighborhood, then I think it's valuable
I mean, I don't see any cat that wouldn't benefit from some fresh air and munching on some grass. But that said, some cats could be scared Well then you're going to want to work on building their confidence. And I mean, the reality is they do have to leave the house for vet visits and stuff. So why not kind of?
Kristiina (32:51)
No.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (33:07)
help them get more comfortable with new environments since they're going to have to leave. You know, people move, things happen, life changes, and there's event visits. So there's no reason why I wouldn't encourage people to practice building their cat's confidence. But yeah, I think the environment is important and it has to be safe. Otherwise, it's just not worth it.
Kristiina (33:15)
Right.
Right. And speaking about safety, is there a harness slash leash that you like to recommend? You don't have to like name anything if you don't want to. But I think a lot of people think that they can leash walk their cats just on a collar. Right. maybe you could clear up like what makes a safe harness or leash walking set up.
Julie (33:47)
Right.
Okay.
So yeah, we actually do have like a cat school harness and.
Kristiina (33:58)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (33:59)
it's sold on Amazon if anyone is interested in it but it comes with a leash and the harness that I like the best the style is the one that is easy to put on and you know the thicker the better. Now it can influence the cat's mobility but they get used to it and then it's ultimately safer versus like a thin strapped harness so we use um one that's you know got the velcro and
Kristiina (34:01)
Oh, all right.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Julie (34:28)
a larger portion so it's more like a safety vest that kind of looking style and it just lay you lay it on their back and then you Velcro around the collar and Velcro under the belly so that's our style that I advocate for and
Kristiina (34:34)
Right.
Julie (34:44)
It just because it covers more of the surface of the cat. And I walk my own cat with that harness. And when we first started, he slipped out of a bunch of harnesses. So that's kind of what got me to this point. So the other thing I recommend is a tracking device.
Kristiina (34:47)
Right.
Yeah.
Yes, that's a very good point.
Julie (35:06)
Yeah.
Kristiina (35:07)
I will say, I think our cats use the same kind of harness that you're talking about, that it's more almost like a coat, so that they're really fully covered because of this. I think I went through the same trial and error just practicing with them in our old yard in the city. And because cats, because their shoulder blades are not connected to their to their neck, they can collapse everything, right? And then just so easily get out of, yeah, they just, bleh.
Julie (35:12)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, good. Just like go like this. They can still do it in and harder.
Kristiina (35:33)
They can do it, but it's a little harder and you can, it gives you more time to catch them,
Julie (35:39)
Yeah
Kristiina (35:39)
The tracking device. We have tile trackers on all of our cats. We use those mostly just because when we moved to a house, I wanted to be able to know like where in this house our cat's gonna be as opposed to a tiny apartment where we live for.
Julie (35:39)
you. Mm-hmm.
Right, yeah.
Right.
Kristiina (35:53)
30 years where I was like, I know where the cats are all the time. So with those trackers, at least I can open an app. I can ring the tracker so I can hear where the cat is. And then it'll also show me kind of where in the house the cat is. But those are not great for if you have cats outside because they work on a Bluetooth. So then people might want something more like an air tag or the more expensive, um, satellite trackers that you can get that also, yeah, that clip on to a collar, which may be what you use. I don't know if you want to talk about.
Julie (36:02)
You're right.
Mm-hmm.
Or the other GPS ones, yeah.
So I like, I like, I use both. I put, I put like a similar one to the tile, the tabcat. I have a tabcat and I put it in the little pocket of our harness. And then I have the track tracker and I put it in all around his collar. So I double up.
Kristiina (36:25)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
That totally makes sense to me.
I have used both at one point in time and actually we put the GPS one on Kevin who you saw earlier when he was still just an outdoor street cat and we just TNR'd him and we were R'ing him and we just wanted to know like which is return for people who may not know. TNR is Trapnudor return and we were putting him back out on the street because he was an adult and he did not want to live inside. And we were like, Oh, we want to see where this guy goes. We put that tracker on him and you know, it reported it showed a little map on my phone
He went all over the city and he had an enormous territory. Enormous, he was crossing like six lane highways. It was crazy. Yeah, and we freaked out. We're like, oh my God, no, Kevin.
Julie (37:17)
Oh wow.
Oh.
No
Kristiina (37:25)
Thankfully, as his testosterone came down, he decided, I think I will come to live with you guys after a few months. And now he's so happy and he loves it. He doesn't even want to go outside on a walk. We'll go on the catio, but like that's it. But it was really funny to use that tracker and watch and see exactly where he went. Yes.
Julie (37:32)
Oh, that's great.
Oh, that's it. OK.
I think that's a great step for everyone, even if they let their cat outdoors to like start watching where their cat goes and then that's a great first step in deciding, you know what, this is too dangerous or my cat doesn't go that far, it's not such a big deal.
Kristiina (37:57)
Right. Yeah. Um, and depending where you live, you know, the fact that your cat doesn't go far may not be the end to the dangers, right? Where we are, there's dangers from bobcats, from coyotes, from bears, from owls, from every, everything that's outside and is hungry. Um, and, and then cars, which of course are a danger everywhere to outdoor cats poison. If people are outside poisoning mice or rats, it's just kind of endless. So I'm.
Julie (38:11)
Oh yeah, saying anything. Predator, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
The list is very, very long. So.
Kristiina (38:28)
It is very long. So I'm really an advocate for please try and bring your cats inside. I understand that some cats just don't like it and those cats, you know, they're, if they're an adult, they're making their choice. Hopefully you can at least help them by providing a feral house, a warm house for them and food, um, and kind of monitor them. And, and if you TNR them, maybe after their hormones have, have changed, they'll, they'll change their minds and want to come
Julie (38:34)
that inside.
Mm-hmm or even like doing some leash walking like starting the process of the leash walking so yeah, they can try to do, you know a little bit of leash walking a little bit of indoor and Yeah start integrating and getting them used to the being inside a bit more It doesn't have to be black or in white. It's a good it's a process and And that's a good starting point a good starting point though. Yes the tracker and just being like, okay
Kristiina (39:01)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, that's a very no, it's yes.
Julie (39:27)
this is what's happening.
Kristiina (39:28)
Yeah, it's rarely black and white. And with Kevin, when he decided he wanted to come and live inside, he still wanted to go out for his night walks. And so we just had to let him for like another month or two, he'd go out for an hour or two and come right back. But every day I was like, oh, I hate this. I hate it, but I had to let him do it because that's what he needed to do. And then eventually he didn't need to do it anymore.
Julie (39:38)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
more interesting.
Kristiina (39:52)
and he was done and then he felt safe, you know, and that's often what cats do. They make these little steps, right? Everything with cats is these small steps towards things. So his small step was, I think I'll come visit in the yard every day. Well, maybe I'll come sleep indoors, but I'm still going to go outside. You know, maybe I won't go outside every day. Maybe I'll just stay indoors. Right. And it had to be on his terms. It had to be on his timeline and it just had to be how he wanted to do it. And now we have this amazing giant unit who's over here.
Julie (40:01)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristiina (40:22)
staring at me our little toothless linebacker who is just the nicest man and I can't believe he was this feral you know east village street cat um but it is really an incremental process and you do have to really let cats kind of go at their own pace and you can't rush it so
Julie (40:30)
Oh.
Mm-hmm.
Kristiina (40:39)
Yes, so I think we'll kind of, we'll end with answering a few questions from listeners who when I was asking people if they had questions for you, they really seemed to latch on to the fact that you're also a behaviorist and less about the clicker training. So you can answer these or not answer these, it's totally up to you, but these are just things that people were asking.
Julie (40:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kristiina (41:00)
how do I deal with a cat who follows me to bite me after I walk away from aggressive play?
Julie (41:05)
Okay, so I didn't answer that yet. That one I was gonna say that my goal for that one would be to try to stop the play before the cat gets too aroused. And being a dog person originally, this reminds me very much of dog park interactions where dogs start getting a little too.
Kristiina (41:17)
Mm-hmm.
Hyped up, yeah.
Julie (41:28)
were, you know, yeah, hyped up when they play and we split them up, we give them a little break, we ask for sits, we ask them to come, we direct them to do something else, treats, calm them down, and then we let them play again. So I would do the exact same thing with a cat. I would try to prevent that arousal.
Kristiina (41:40)
Right.
Julie (41:45)
level just by asking for some training in between play sessions and getting a little bit of focus, making it more about the treats. Once you make it about the treats, some cats might not even go back to playing because they get so excited about treats. So that can be a great way to kind of diffuse the conflict.
Kristiina (41:50)
Mm-hmm.
Right. I also wonder if, if a cat who's following to bite after.
And number one, a person I don't think should do aggressive play with a cat. If they're doing like hand play or any of that, and that's becoming aggressive, like that's not a good thing to do. Like your cat should not see you as an aggressive play partner in the way that they might play with another, like another cons specific, right? But I wonder if the following and the biting is also part of like a continued play solicitation, you know, in the way that like cats will do that to each other. They'll be playing like, at least I see it in my house, they'll be playing and then one will wander off.
Julie (42:12)
Right.
Kristiina (42:37)
bite the leg of the cat who lost interest, right? So, and this is, it's not, it doesn't change the solution. It's just, I'm, I don't know that it's aggressive as much as it might be if you're winding your cat up and then you just finish, the cat doesn't understand that, that you're done. Right. So you, yeah.
Julie (42:38)
Right, right, yeah.
Finish, yeah, you're like, I'm done. Yeah, and they could do like a food puzzle to kind of any calming activity after to.
Kristiina (43:01)
Exactly. There may just need to be more of a signal that like we're done now. Here is here's something for you to capture and kill and eat you know something like that may need to be added in there. Somebody else wanted to know why does my cat scratch all night long? I have three cat trees, two posts, and a ton of toys. Do you have any thoughts about that?
Julie (43:04)
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that to me just kind of sounds like a arousal, like a cat that maybe didn't get enough all day that's kind of up at night looking for stuff to do.
Kristiina (43:24)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (43:30)
marching around the house, scratching everything. I can picture my cat does that like when I don't give him enough that day. He's just like, I'm wound up, I'm scratching, I'm marching, I'm yelling and that kind of thing. So I mean, as much as it's hard to give our cats stuff before bedtime, you know, I do advocate for like training, puzzles, snack before bed kind of thing because they really do need it. Obviously like play is good.
Kristiina (43:33)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (44:00)
But I don't like the idea of doing play too late And I think if you are gonna fall do play you're gonna want to fall like I think a lot of people have I think That they should be play and they'll say oh well I play so much with my cat How much more can I play? When you're starting to say that I think you need to start adding in some more calming activities So like mental games the training I do train my cat before bed. I brush his teeth He does a little training and that's what helps him. You know stay calm
Kristiina (44:19)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (44:30)
night. So I do kind of advocate for that as well to try to understand the calming activities versus just the arousing activities. Play is arousing and then we've got our nose work, our food puzzles. For people that don't know nose work, that's where you hide food. You can hide it behind little boxes and your cat has to find it so you can divide up your cat's meal, hide it around the house. That's what you're kind of saying with your little mice. That's great.
Kristiina (44:30)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah.
Julie (45:00)
the food puzzles and training. Those are calming activities. Snuffle mats, the mats where you hide treats So things like that. Any of the sniffing games is gonna calm your cat down versus the play, which is gonna get them wound up, which is like, you know, when my husband plays sports and he comes home and I hear him watching TV and eating snacks and like, he's not coming home and just coming to bed. He's got a whole routine, you know, he's gotta wind down.
Kristiina (45:05)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great.
Yeah, I think that's a really good comparison is that, yeah, like when you work out, or at least when I work out, and I guess your husband and probably you too, is that you're not tired then. Then you're like, oh, I gotta do more stuff. And then you do have to kind of calm yourself down. So I can't work out at night or I won't sleep. Yeah.
Julie (45:37)
Yeah.
Yeah, you're not just, yeah. Yeah, I don't work out at night. Yeah, I don't play sports, but I know it had that effect on him. He was so loud. It was just, his games were like till 10 o'clock and then he's coming home. It's just like, ugh, it's so annoying. Ha ha ha. Ha.
Kristiina (45:51)
Right.
Shh. No, that's, that's a lot. I do. I love the idea of having like a calming bedtime routine for your cat. Like I think that's really cute. Like now it's time for our 10 step skincare routine and like, now we're going to do this, but you know, cats love her routine so much that might be helpful that if, you know, you do get in some vigorous play during the day and like, it's like play to exhaustion with your cat, at least, you know, once a day.
Julie (46:07)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Ha ha ha.
They do.
Mmm.
Kristiina (46:26)
Um, I think having like a calming nighttime series of rituals that are predictable and, and having this routine would be really helpful also for that cat so that they're not up kind of, you know, going crazy all night.
Julie (46:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, they need that time to wind down and yeah.
Kristiina (46:43)
Yeah. All right. Then the last one is why do cats attack their own tails? So
Julie (46:50)
Yeah, I was thinking about that one. that could be like, you know, OCD kind of thing. But the first thing I just wanted to say is like, I think.
Kristiina (46:54)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (46:58)
cats and dogs don't really understand their hind end. They don't really know what's behind them, right? A good example of that, or even their, even like the shape of their body, like a good example of this is if you try to ask a dog to go through a small, you know, path, or even at a door that's not open all the way, and they're like, I can't fit through there, and you're like, of course you can. They see themselves a different way. And so if you kind of apply
Kristiina (47:02)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Julie (47:25)
that to cats, they don't really look behind them and understand that their tail is really a part of their body. And then suddenly they see this swinging thing behind them and it can look like a fun toy and they might not make the connection that it belongs to them and it's part of their body. So that's kind of one theory and I guess the other would be some sort of compulsive behaviour.
Kristiina (47:32)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (47:53)
like compulsive spinning, which my dog will came, stair to tell, yeah, like my dog does, did that when I rescued her, she still can do it. She just spins, you know, and they do these kinds of things. Who really knows why they do it? It's just part, yeah. So something, yeah, for her it's excitement around food.
Kristiina (47:55)
Oh, like a stereotypical behavior. Yeah, yeah.
Just repetitive stress behaviors, yeah.
Mmm.
Julie (48:18)
She does it when we try to feed her dinner, her meals. I guess the first step in resolving something like that would be to understand the context in what happens. So I've recognized the context in her. It happens around food time. I'm installing a replacement behavior, which is lying on her mat.
Kristiina (48:27)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (48:35)
you know, obviously it's not a perfect, nothing's perfect I can't just expect her to lie down the whole time. I have to kind of reinforce her and break it up, make it easy and everything but it does work. She can hold that position while I prepare her food. So with chasing tails, I would definitely try to understand, I would be curious in what context it's happening and then kind of go from there and say okay like what's the trigger
Kristiina (48:45)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (49:03)
And I think there's all those kinds of things are on like, there's like a fine line between like arousal, excitement, aggression kind of thing. So it's good to try to like understand the context and then see if you can install the replacement behavior or try to take the context away if it is stressful, like what's causing the stress and stuff.
Kristiina (49:13)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think it's important to note it could also be a neurological disease. There's one that's called feline hyperesthesia that our cat Babi has She has it. She has a
I'd say a pretty moderate to severe case. She hasn't done like a ton of damage to her tail, but she does have attacks, I'd say every night, every couple nights that are, you know, we have to really diffuse. And those hunting mice, the little food puzzles have been so helpful in terms of helping her get past those so that we haven't had to use any pharmacological interventions like GABA or anything to kind of drug her out of it, which is a lot of times what people end up doing because cats can...
Julie (49:58)
Mm-hmm.
Kristiina (50:05)
can really hurt themselves when they have this disease. So if your cat is attacking their tail and doing damage to themselves, if you see like rippling along their back or their flank, and they seem kind of like twitchy and irritated, if they're yelling when they're attacking their tail, those are all things that I would go and see your veterinarian about.
because it could be feline hyperesthesia. And that is something that you can try to use behavioral modifications to address, but you really wanna do that with the help of your veterinarian as well, just because, yeah.
Julie (50:36)
Yeah, that's a really good point. And like, whenever people have a behavior issue, it is very good to always go to your vet first and just, especially like litter box things. A lot of people ask, well, how can you stop this with clicker training? It's like, no, you've got to go to your vet first. So with all these kinds of more complicated things, it is good to gather all your information and go to your vet, rule out health issues first.
Kristiina (50:45)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no. Yeah.
Julie (51:06)
because no behavior modification is going to work when there's a health issue going on. It's just...
Kristiina (51:12)
Yeah, that's absolutely true. And I think top behavior issues that I see a lot in my practice that actually need the intervention of a vet are inappropriate toileting, right? Like you said, number one being inappropriate defecation. So if people are like, my cat keeps pooping outside the litter box, 95% of the time, that is a physical issue that you have to see your veterinarian about it's gastritis or it's constipation or it's lymphoma or it's
Julie (51:39)
patient, yeah.
Kristiina (51:41)
And I don't want to scare people saying lymphoma, but there's so many things that it could be, most of which are physical, very rarely will cats defecate outside of their litter box, if it's not a physical issue. Um, so I would just get that ruled out first, right? I just think it's generally a good idea to, if you're not going yearly, if you're having a new behavioral issue,
Julie (51:55)
Mm-hmm.
Kristiina (52:02)
Pain can look like a lot of different things. Dental pain can really look like aggression. It can look like depression. Just general pain can also look like aggression. A lot of...
Julie (52:02)
Oh yeah.
Mm-hmm, or if people say like their cats not interested in training anymore. That's always a good sign like
Kristiina (52:17)
Yeah.
Julie (52:20)
It's really about food and either, like, yeah, I was not careful with one of my cats. And they were not accepting dry food anymore. Like, oh, I'll just feed wet food. This was a long time ago before I, you know, knew more stuff. But, and he had diabetes. I didn't realize that. So like, you know, oh, that wasn't a trigger for me that he wasn't eating his dry food, which it should have been.
Kristiina (52:22)
Yes.
Yeah.
Right.
Yes, I think any change again, because we've talked so much about how cats love a routine. They're very routine oriented. If your cat has any change in their routine, are they sleeping in a different place? That's how I first noticed that Steve was sick was that he just started sleeping in a slightly different place. And that was the first thing where I was like, something's wrong, right? Sleeping in a different place, eating something differently, not wanting to eat something, acting aggressive, acting depressed, just having less energy.
Julie (53:01)
Mm-hmm.
Kristiina (53:11)
know any of any little thing that's off take your cat to the vet then come to see one of us but definitely take your cat to the vet first because so many things are physical drivers and cats above all things are really good at hiding and masking pain so often by the time you see a little evidence of them acting funny they have been in distress for quite some time so
Julie (53:15)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kristiina (53:37)
That's that's that. And I don't want to end on a grim note. That's that's all that that's all that end of the now you're fine. You're fine.
Julie (53:39)
Oh seriously I'm just thinking about Mike and I'm like oh my god what am I doing he's sleeping somewhere like because he's sleeping in the dog crate right now I told you and that is like right
Kristiina (53:49)
No, no, I'm sure it's fine. I'm just very hypervigilant, you know, and I was really hypervigilant about Steve and that's, that's how we ended up catching his, his cancer so early. But in the end, it doesn't matter because SCC is, is SCC and it is, it is what it is. Right.
Julie (54:04)
Yeah.
Kristiina (54:05)
Steve sent, had me kind of go off on another tangent there, but in closing, is there anything else you'd like to share with us about clicker training or how can people find you on YouTube, on your website? Like how can people avail them?
Julie (54:10)
Thank you.
So yeah, there's the website which is catschool.co. YouTube is a great place to start, which is the just look up Cat School and you'll find us on YouTube. Of course Instagram is another fun place where I like to feature students and yeah those are the three, those are the main ones and
Kristiina (54:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (54:39)
Give it a go. It's fun. Play with your cat, have fun with your cat. Get to know their brain, get to see them do fun things, get to see differences between your cats, which is interesting. Who likes jumping, who likes problem solving, who loves the training. It can be a lot of fun to get to know them more and to get that bond a little stronger too by working with them and teaching them something.
Kristiina (54:42)
Yeah, it is. It's very fun and yeah.
Yeah.
Julie (55:08)
new and teaching any teaching any animal something is fun just to see them learning something and that kind of communication is just it's exciting so yeah it's
Kristiina (55:08)
Yeah.
It is. I think it's a great enrichment for both parties. Yeah.
Julie (55:19)
It's a great, yeah, it's great enrichment and you don't have to do, you know, you don't have to block off your schedule for a big session. Just like, you know, five minutes here or there, once a day or not, you know, whatever you can do kind of thing. Your cat will appreciate it and hopefully they will start asking for it and remind you. So you don't even have to put it in, you know, your calendar or anything because your cat's gonna show up at their spot and say, let's do stuff.
Kristiina (55:33)
Yeah.
Right.
All right, well, here's to more people of working with their cats with clicker training and teaching their cats to walk outside. And thank you so, so much for talking with me today about a whole range of crazy topics that we got into. But I super, super appreciate your time and I really appreciate your website. And just thank you so much for everything. You are... I know.
Julie (56:04)
Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been so nice to finally get a chance to chat with you. Ha ha ha.
Kristiina (56:16)
I know, I know, I feel like I've known of you for years, but finally here we are. So thank you.