Hiss & Tell: Cat Behavior and Beyond

Understanding Community Cats: A Deep Dive with Stacy LeBaron

• Kristiina Wilson • Season 2 • Episode 25

Share episode

Send us a text

Discover how community dynamics and infrastructure planning can apply to outdoor cat welfare with our inspiring guest, Stacy LeBaron from the Community Cats Podcast. Stacy takes us on her journey from urban planning to championing cat welfare, revealing insights on the transformative impact of Trap-Neuter-Return (TNR) programs. She explains the crucial distinctions between community, stray, and feral cats and shines a light on regional differences in ear-tipping practices. Through heartwarming anecdotes and practical advice, Stacy demonstrates how small actions, like using paper collars, can lead to sustainable initiatives.

Uncover the importance of spay and neuter programs in managing cat populations and keeping shelters from becoming overwhelmed. We spotlight significant educational resources like the United Spay Alliance conference and online kitten and cat conferences, which provide volunteers the tools they need for effective community cat management. This episode is packed with strategies to spread awareness through social media and foster collaboration for the welfare of community cats.

Explore the success stories from Newburyport, Massachusetts, a true testament to the power of community collaboration. Learn how the Merrimack River Feline Rescue Society navigated potential conflicts with bird conservationists by managing local cat populations through open admission and no-kill policies. The episode also highlights initiatives like Vermont's Positive Pantry and the Surrender Prevention Certification Program, which empower shelter staff to handle surrender requests effectively. We delve into cultural barriers to pet sterilization and advocate for affordable spay and neuter programs, aiming to create a compassionate and sustainable approach to managing community cats.

Kristiina Wilson:

Hi and welcome to Hiss and Tell a Cat Behavior and More podcast hosted by me, K Wilson, animal behaviorist. Today's guest is Stacey LeBaron, the head cat behind the Community Cats podcast. We discuss the critical role of TNR programs, the importance of education and community engagement, and practical tips for managing cat colonies. She also shares insights into collaborative efforts that makes bay neuter initiatives sustainable and how small actions like using paper collars can make a big difference. So tune in. Welcome to another episode of Hiss and Tell. I'm your host, christina Wilson, and with me today is Stacey LeBaron, head cat of the Community Cats podcast. Welcome, stacey. Thanks for joining me. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Welcome, stacey. Thanks for joining me. Thank you so much for having me on the show. You're absolutely welcome. I'm so excited for our discussion today. Let's start off with just like a little bit about you your background, your education, how you got into working with cats and cat welfare and all of that good stuff.

Stacy LeBaron:

Yeah sure so well. I've been involved with cats, specifically in animal welfare, since 1994. So I guess we're going to say 30 years, unfortunately, I guess it's going to share my age. Before that time I was in college getting a degree in urban planning. So where does that take you? Urban planning, straight to cats. Who would have thought? Urban planning, straight to cats who would have thought? And uh, so I, um, I grew up with cats my whole life but I always had one cat at a time but really enjoyed them. And in 1994 I found out about this group, the merrimack river feline rescue society, and um in newburyport, massachusetts. They were doing some great work with cats on the waterfront and I joined their board of directors as a volunteer and it kind of grew from there, you know, one step in front of the other, and I was president in 1996. And I was president and executive director for 16 years after that, growing the organization from about $45,000 a year to about $1.3, $1.4 million a year. So really, grew up.

Stacy LeBaron:

Yeah, and you know we wanted to be sort of the cutting edge group across the nation, really caring for cats, providing for cats, not just doing adoption, not just doing trap new to return. We wanted to do it all. Whatever the cats and the family's needs were, we were going to take care of them in that Newburyport area.

Kristiina Wilson:

So I love planning, I like working with people and I love cats, and so it just worked out for me, have you found that your education actually in urban planning has helped at all in your work with especially cats in cities?

Stacy LeBaron:

Well, so actually I mean urban planning is good because it's trying to have a respect and understanding for the political process as well as the physical space that's out there and understanding the limitation or the possibilities for how you could treat cats in the community.

Stacy LeBaron:

We have urban cats, we have community cats, cats that are outdoors, that need a different type of support and infrastructure than our indoor cats need. So it helped me get perspective on how people behave and how you can use sort of the built environment to allow for community to behave in a better way. It's interesting. I was just reading a book about how there are some urban planners who believe that some plans have been designed with a bias towards men versus women, because in Sweden this was a study in Sweden they said you know, men like to drive to work or drive to work more than women. Women are dealing, oftentimes dragging kids to school and on the sidewalks and, like when a snowstorm happens, they plow the roads first, not the sidewalks, and then you know people are in the hospitals because they've fallen on the sidewalk and when they change the plan to do the sidewalks, clean the sidewalks first before the roads.

Stacy LeBaron:

the injuries in the emergency rooms went way down and so it's interesting that just a simple shift in that focus really changed outcomes. So it's sort of an understanding of what goes on in our communities and how can we change perceptions and outcomes. You know, for our cats.

Kristiina Wilson:

Absolutely. I feel like that could be its own podcast episode on its own. That's so interesting. Like I have so many thoughts just about that study, but they're not necessarily about cats, so I'm gonna shut up, not talk about them here. Can you tell us just really for for our listeners, what defines a a community cat and how do they differ or they don't differ from owned cats or stray cats or feral cats, which I know is always a hot button definition what's a community cat?

Stacy LeBaron:

So my definition of a community cat is any cat that's outdoors with four paws on the ground. So any cat that's outside is a community cat. I do believe also that our indoor only cats are community cats because they have the potential of getting outside too, but they play a sort of a different, they're more of a supporting actor or actress in this story about community cats. So really, you know any cat that's out there, tipped or not tipped. So what does that mean? When a cat is tipped, it has a little snip taken off of its left ear on the East coast, its right ear on the West coast, and it? Um is identifying that cat as being a sterilized community cat or a spayed or neutered community cat? Um, or a fixed community cat, depending on what language you want to use. And so we um. So so that helps to identify our population that's out there. But any, any cat with four paws outdoors, you know, on the ground that's, that's a cat, cat or kitten, either one. There we go.

Kristiina Wilson:

Okay, what's what the difference between the East Coast and the West Coast ear tips? Is that like a rap battle, like East Coast, west Coast, you know rap scene? Like I had no idea that we tip differently on the West Coast ear tips? Is that like a rap battle, like East Coast, west Coast, you know rap scene? Like I had no idea that we tip differently on the West Coast? Is that just that's just happened differently, or is it to so that we know, oh, this cat has come all the way over here from LA, it's made this great journey. Like what's going on with that?

Stacy LeBaron:

I don't know the origins of the story, I don't know if it was somebody you know, just read the memo wrong on the East Coast people with the left ear tip, and they somehow got it confused. I mean, there are some organizations also that you know. They ear tip on the right for male cat, ear tip on the left for the female cat. There are fewer ones that do it that way, but it seems like Washington State and Oregon and California those three states primarily ear tip on the right. And then there is a point, sort of in Colorado, where it shifts and it seems like Midwest and Eastern tend to tip on the left, and so I'm not 100% sure how that all originated. But we have a t-shirt that talks about ear tipping on the east and the west, just as a way to educate folks. So in general, if you see a flat snip across the ear, you can pretty well think that that cat is spayed or neutered.

Kristiina Wilson:

Sure, I love thinking that there's this rivalry going on between community cats in the East coast and the left coast because they've got different ear tips. I'm an idiot, don't, don't worry about me. Okay, so can you tell me a little bit about the weekend conferences that you've organized? Um, I was reading on your website that you have an online cat conference, you have the United Spey Alliance Conference and then you have the online kitten conference. So tell us a little bit about all of these great conferences that you're doing.

Stacy LeBaron:

Yeah, so sure. So, really, I started the Community Cats Podcast in 2016, and it was really. I had been running a mentoring program and I was able to help about 80 groups to start TNR programs and I had 400 groups on my waiting list when I left the Merrimack River Feline Rescue Society. So we started the podcast as a way to you know, provide more information and assistance and help to those that there's that energy, there was a need, there's a huge demand to be able to help community cats. We're here to turn your passion for cats into action. That is what we are all about, and so we provide over 30 educational events during the course of the year virtual events Anybody can join, I don't care who you are. We try to keep them all affordable, and so we have three weekend events the online cat conference, the online kitten conference and then the United Spay Alliance conference. Obviously, we can't do much TNR if we can't neuter the cats right, if we can't get them spayed or neutered. It's impossible if we can't sterilize the cats.

Stacy LeBaron:

So, the United Spay Alliance conference is incredibly important because we want to increase our capacity to be able to spay and neuter cats. Cats are great reproducers and we want to stop that insanity and so that's part of we look at creative solutions, workarounds, you know, efficiencies to be able to have or get more cats done in private practice as well as in our clinics.

Stacy LeBaron:

Get more cats done in private practice as well as in our clinics. We have our online kitten conference, which is in partnership with the National Kitten Coalition. All things kitten. We have to deal with kittens, unfortunately. Of course, I look at any feral kitten. I had a moment back in the 90s when there were 35 kittens living out of a dumpster behind a bar and they all had runny, goopy eyes. I mean, we've all heard the story. We see the adults off in the woods and I'm like you know what? I don't like this picture. We're not going to see this again. You know this does not need to happen if we have enough spay neuter capacity out there. But we do. We do have kittens. We're rescuing kittens. We need to have the tools to be able to deal with them. So that's what the online kitten conference is all about. We have our United Spey Alliance conferences every October. The online kitten conference is every June and our online cat conference, which is pretty much anything else that you might want to talk about with regards to community cats. We'll cover it there.

Stacy LeBaron:

So we've done profiles of community cat management. You know what? What does it mean to be a community cat program manager. What is the legislation like? What does it mean to do advocacy for community cats? You know how do you start a program, how to start a TNR program. We have all the recordings of our past conferences are on our YouTube channel. And again, education and resources we want to get you. If you want, if have a passion for cats and you want to do something, we want to help, give you those tools to make you be successful, and that's all what we're about. So we have certification programs too. So run the gamut. We've got free and we have affordable sessions. And again, if anybody's got an idea of something we're missing, we're happy to listen and put it right into our educational program.

Kristiina Wilson:

All right. Well, maybe you'll hear some ideas from listeners. That'd be great. Can you tell us a little bit about the TNR certification class that you do, I think, via Neighborhood Cats?

Stacy LeBaron:

Boy. About three years ago I think, we started partnering with Neighborhood Cats. We do monthly TNR certification workshops. Usually it's the first Saturday of the month. It's a two, two and a half, two hours 45 minute training that you go through virtually, and then there's a quiz that you take at the end in order to get TNR certified. There are quite a few organizations out there that if you want to volunteer for them or if you want access to a discounted price at their spay neuter clinic, they're going to ask that you get TNR certified and honestly, you you want to. You want to know what you're doing with those cats, because every I can't tell you how many times people have come to me and they go. You know I learned the hard way. You know this happened and I learned the hard way.

Stacy LeBaron:

So this is a way so you don't have to learn the hard way it's. You know we're going to tell you all about the things what to do and what not to do, what to watch out for. You know how to work with a variety of different traps. You know we do have to trap our community cats. They're going to, they can bite and we don't want them to bite us, so it's the last thing you want to do is have a bite situation. So, yes, you just have to be really, really thoughtful and careful.

Stacy LeBaron:

Everybody, every cat, is cute. We all think they're cute, but we have to be really careful when we're dealing with our community cats. Even if it's a stray or if it's a cat, we know that's like a lost cat or a missing cat. They're in an environment they're not familiar with, and so that's why it's really important we're so careful that we just use the trap technology as a way to get those cats, and we've got so many advancements in this area that it's really there's no reason not to do use the trapping equipment to get those cats.

Stacy LeBaron:

But yeah every month we are live with the TNR certification workshop. Folks can watch a recording instead during the course of the week. They don't have to be there present and they can still get certified. So if you work on Saturdays, don't worry about it, you still can get certified.

Kristiina Wilson:

And again, I just want to encourage everyone to go to Neighborhood Cats and get your TNR certification. It really is helpful. Like Stacey said, don't get yourself injured. You know, before I was a behaviorist, but when I was still doing a lot of cat work, I did the stupid thing and I stuck my hand in a car engine to pull a feral cat out that I had already been working with, who was living in our house and who, like, ran out and I got 18 bites and ended up in the hospital for a few days. So just you know an anecdote to you know they will bite you when they're, they're freaked out.

Kristiina Wilson:

And yeah, that was. That was real dumb. So don't be like me. Take the class and learn to not be a dum-dum. That's, that's, that's my, my warning. Can you explain the paper collar that you have on your website? I was, you know, looking around recently and saw this paper collar that you have for people to download. Was, you know, looking around recently and saw this paper collar that you have for people to download and I thought it was such a cool idea and something that had never, obviously, occurred to me. So perhaps you could explain that to everyone.

Stacy LeBaron:

Yeah, sure. So I don't know, I don't, I don't really know how the the lore got started, but in Massachusetts in general, I've been a moderator of a group called Mascats, which is sort of it's like a Google groups type thing to cover Massachusetts cat rescue and that kind of thing.

Stacy LeBaron:

And I'd say in general, I mean there's always been a lot of concerns since 2000. The Merrimack River Feline Rescue Society has rescued or has held Sunday spay neuter clinics for feral cats and or for community cats. So there's always been a lot of concern. Are you stealing somebody's cat, Are you?

Stacy LeBaron:

trapping somebody's cat and all that kind of stuff. So what we do as a general protocol is we say to the community you think you have a stray cat in your backyard that needs assistance. That is friendly, you know. Put a paper collar on that cat with your phone number and see if there's somebody else that cares for. That is friendly, you know. Put a paper collar on that cat with your phone number and see if there's somebody else that cares for that cat. And in every situation in the last two years that I've had that question posed to me and they've used the paper collar, they have found somebody who has fed that cat. Oh, awesome and right, so that.

Stacy LeBaron:

So it results in a tremendous amount of success, yeah, and obviously prevents that cat even entering the system in any way, shape or form. And so we use that across the board. And you know, if it comes off, it's easy, it's cheap, it doesn't cost any money. So we have this template we just created to help really further.

Stacy LeBaron:

So an organization, I know there's been a lot of stress with the shelters, with cat over, you know, with the overpopulation of cats and dogs in shelters. So if you know, if people call in and they say, hey, I've got a stray. You need to take the stray in. If they could just say, use the call or use a paper collar, those I think most of 80%, 90% of those calls would just not even result in that cat making an impact on the facility and that's, you know, that's obviously saving lives and obviously it's saving resources and it's enabling, you know, organizations to focus where they really should be focused on, which is, you know, dealing with little kittens that are going to die during the course of the year, and all that other stuff.

Kristiina Wilson:

No, I agree, and I think it would be really useful if people can post about this in their local Facebook groups or in their local next door, because that's where at least I see all the time people being like.

Kristiina Wilson:

Here's a blurry picture of this cat that always comes into my yard. Does anyone know this cat Like? It's friendly, you know, and there's always this discourse of, well, you should do this and I don't know who's cat. You know, there's always these arguments, a lot of things that I think would be solved with a paper collar. So can you tell us a little bit about the primary challenges that are faced by community cats and how those challenges impact their welfare and the communities that they inhabit? I know it's kind of like a mouthful question.

Stacy LeBaron:

Yeah, I mean obviously usually the the people are the challenges for community cats to a certain degree, right, I mean there's different levels of challenges for community cats depending on where they are located. So Newburyport, massachusetts, where I was located for quite a few years, home of the piping plover Right, I was located for quite a few years home of the piping plover right, so we were all in, you know the bird haven central, and so you would think that there would be a lot of conflicts between bird and cat there, because we've read so much about it.

Stacy LeBaron:

However, luckily, merrimack River Feline Rescue Society got to the region before the birders did, so we got there and we were able to get the population of cats reduced significantly enough so that we never had any real trouble with the bird organizations.

Stacy LeBaron:

They actually embraced us because they knew, at the end of the day, that we were taking in cats from the communities that were most impacted. So if you've got, if you have a transient population that are living in a beach community, that you know they're coming and going, you know that the end of August, when the rentals are up, that there's going to be people that are needy of rescue assistance for those cats, because they're not going to be able to move with those, those pets, and you want to encourage them to surrender those cats and not leave them where they

Stacy LeBaron:

are in those sensitive areas. Now, you know, in other parts of the community you may you might have a different response where you might wait until there's room at the inn, I call it right. So if your shelter is overflowing with cats and you've got a request for assistance on a friendly cat, that that you can't, you know, it's just maybe find somebody to feed the cat outside for a couple of months and then you can bring it in when you're, when you have capacity. So we operated as an open admission but no kill organization, which meant we were working with the community to find out the best solutions possible for each cat and their family, depending on where they are.

Stacy LeBaron:

So we had to triage with different types of protocols. So you know a community cat's gonna have a different um response. Maybe then you know. Obviously then in like a barn situation, if you've got a friendly barn cat that just needs to be spayed or neutered, you'll do that. Or if somebody's moving and the only reason they can't take their cat with them is that cat's not spayed or neutered, I'm going to spay, neuter that cat and let them take the cat with them, of course, right, and then you know. So there's a lot of programs out there that I guess the word is diversion. These days we're trying to have these diversion programs and I think that's something that we always were doing, from day one, which is let's listen to the family and let's let's look at the cat and the cat situation and just try to find a solution that works for all parties, and it's not just like it must be adoption or intake and surrender, or it must be this or it must be that.

Stacy LeBaron:

Return to field. It's more of a nuanced conversation and working with the community. So I'd say the greatest risk you know for community cats are the areas where they just don't have access to spay neuter.

Stacy LeBaron:

I mean, that's the huge risk is if you don't have access to spay, neuter or access to a renaissance type program that can cover all these different capacities. And it doesn't have to be one organization. It could be a group of organizations but they provide all the services. So you have, like one group that does neonatal kittens right. You've got another group that's providing affordable helping with assistance on dentals or care for older cats so that people can keep their cats, so that you're preventing economic euthanasia. So it doesn't have to be a one organization thing. It could be a collaborative effort within the community and so much of our efforts are discussed in a targeted mindset. So each community has this basket of resources and assistance. And again, it doesn't even have to be animal welfare groups.

Stacy LeBaron:

I mean, in um in Vermont I run a group called positive pantry when we basically we raise money to provide, to pay for food, pet food to go through the distribution network of the Vermont food bank and so um. So they're able to provide 140 food shelves with pet food. That um, that they weren't able to before because of a collaborative effort with us. But we're not schlepping that food, you know, all around the state. We're using their distribution system.

Kristiina Wilson:

That's amazing. So, because you touched on a little bit in what you were just saying, can you tell me a little bit about the surrender prevention workshop that you have?

Stacy LeBaron:

Yeah, sure, so, yes, so again, you know, in that process of diversion one of the things and being a cat behaviorist, obviously this is, you know, near and dear to your heart. I call it I in my short version, I call it the lift the lid certification workshop, because so much of the conversation is usually folks calling up to an adoption center and they're saying you know my cat's peeing outside of the litter box. I need to surrender my cat. Yes, right, then you just take a deep breath so I just know where you're at on that run, right. What we're all about is again trying to create avenues so that then these cats don't have to come, come in.

Stacy LeBaron:

People care about their cats but they just don't have that type of information that they need. And usually when they call the shelter or the adoption center, they're at wit's end. They're like I'm done, I'm done, I'm done. And so you become therapist as well as motivator and so you're just like okay, let's breathe, let's take a minute. And so the Surrender Prevention Certification Program with Dr Rachel Geller is a program designed for animal shelters who are dealing with that intake process, the triage, and training those frontline folks how to divert those surrender requests in such a way where there's a positive outcome for the family and for the cat.

Kristiina Wilson:

Okay, that's awesome. And yeah, I will just say for my own practice, and again, people are self-selecting, the people that I see, right. So there are people who are still in the game. I think it's very different who comes to a cat behaviorist versus who would go to a dog behaviorist. I think cat problems tend to be left until people have had it and then they're like, oh, what can I do to solve this, whereas now the cat is on so many behavior loops and there's so many like additional things going on it. You really have to work at untangling this, this mess.

Kristiina Wilson:

But inappropriate urination is for sure I'd say 75% of my clients, because it's such a huge issue that's very nuanced often and very difficult for people to tackle. And the kind of general ed that's out there on the internet is not awesome, it's not often correct and it's just a huge problem. And so I think, especially, people don't have the resources or the time to speak with the behavior professional. I can see how, unfortunately, they end up at wit's end and at a shelter. So I think it's amazing to have that prevention workshop and some tools to provide to people so that they don't end up just passing the buck on to the next person, which is kind of what happens. Okay, so another question, pivoting again. I know I've been like bouncing around all over the place. What are some effective strategies for managing and caring for community cat colonies to ensure their health and well-being? Basically like, what can listeners do to help community cats near them?

Stacy LeBaron:

Right, right, well, so I would recommend, if you do have community cats that you are concerned about, you reach out to any local Trap New to Return organization to make sure that you know what's what in your neighborhood. And so if you reach out to them or if you post on your local next door or Facebook or whatever, just to say, hey, you know, I'm concerned about these cats, they're ear tipped, but you know, I just want to say, you know, if there's a way that I can help and engage or whatever support it. You know, I just, I just want to know and and it's so funny because we're so isolated from our neighbors now because of social media, that nobody knows their neighbors and it's yeah, the cats are really the only thing that are providing the glue in our community.

Stacy LeBaron:

so when you do the paper collar thing, they're like whoa, I didn't realize four other people were feeding this cat. Now I know all my neighbors and I needed to borrow a lawnmower or something. The other and my neighbor loaned the lawnmower to me because we all know each other now. So now we're doing all these other things. So it's it's recreating these physical neighborhood bonds that we used to have. You know, with the sugar, we started the sugar and and we've lost that with this whole social, you know, know, like you have to, if you want to touch anybody, you got to post it, you got to post about it, right, yeah? And so the cats are really the the thing that's bringing us back together in in the community and and it's really good, so it gets you to get to know the neighbors, to find out what's what's. And then also, if you are interested in expanding on that, certainly volunteering with an organization is a next step.

Stacy LeBaron:

And if you don't have those resources in your community, if you're finding that you were in a TNR desert or you're in a resource desert, then reach out to the Community Cats podcast. We're all about starting new initiatives, we are all about being a sprouter, a growth maker, a image changer. And just come to the Community Cats podcast. We have an online cat conference Facebook group, which has all the folks that have attended our events it's like 3,000 folks of people who are actively helping Trap New to Return, and so there's a lot of engagement out there and a ton of supportive resources. If you wanted to start a new initiative or, you know, just help the cats that are in your backyard and you know if someone else is feeding them, I will say if you're feeding in multiple locations, that's tough, so you want to make sure you have one designated feeder and then, maybe you help with buying the food.

Stacy LeBaron:

Also, you have to think about your community. Cat or cats might get injured at some point and vet care is super expensive, and so if you can get a collaborative group together in your neighborhood to sort of say you know, donate every now and again five bucks here and there and just save it in the coffee can so that then if the community cats have an injury, you aren't faced with, you know, questioning whether you can afford treatment or not.

Kristiina Wilson:

Right and I think, also something that I found, because when we moved from New York City out here to Connecticut and we live in the forest where there's, oddly, like a crazy amount of community cats but super feral right, I've been doing more TNR here than I did in New York City, which I did not think was possible, but it's been really crazy. But we're 100% in a desert, like in a resource desert, there's nothing.

Kristiina Wilson:

And I found that talking to vets about like listen, I, you know I'm shouldering the burden of the cost here, can we you know, come to some kind of agreement on like a you know low cost spay neuter because there's no low cost spay neuter clinics here, they've all closed that can be an effective strategy for starting to get some resources in your community.

Kristiina Wilson:

Just talking to especially a vet that's not managed by private equity, because those private equity managed giant corporate vets are not going to be able to work with you, but, like a small vet can often be really helpful, um, and those vets have become a great resource, um, so that we can continue to do this work, because we have tnr'd so many cats since we've moved here, um, and now they all show up on our deck every night to eat.

Kristiina Wilson:

So we've got like a whole community of cats and raccoons and possums and everybody's having snacks every night. But that's just my one tip is, if you're really in a resource desert is to just show up and talk to people, and it can be awkward because, like you said, we're all behind our phones all the time. But you know, if you show up, people will often really want to help you. How do you address concerns from community members who might be wary of or opposed to the presence of community cats in their neighborhoods because I know, at least from my time in new york, this was a big problem that people were always like get these cats out of the neighborhood. You know how do you handle people who really have a difficult time with managed community cat populations well, you used a great word there.

Stacy LeBaron:

You said managed, yes, right. And I personally have never run into anybody with issue with managed, which means I'm 100 percent sterilized, right, so if I just by feeding is not enough. So whenever I've run into any sort of conflicts it's been around colonies that aren't 100% sterilized Got it and the population is not. It's not managed, it's not monitored for newcomers and that kind of thing. Once the colony is 100% sterilized, everybody is ear tipped. It's focused, it's protective. You don't you have minimal vacuum effect which means out-of-towners are coming in right through the area. Usually that has. That then mitigates the the situation. And the other thing too is obviously I listen to the folks when they have their issues. I try and listen to see what's the?

Stacy LeBaron:

concern. Is there something? Is it because they're destroying their garden or something? So, is there something? Is there a tool we can use to help mitigate, prevent those cats from getting into the garden and digging things up or getting on the car and making paw marks on the car or whatever? But also, if there is, if you get the colony 100 percent sterilized, you're going to have at least a 40 percent reduction in the number of cats there anyway. So they're going to see an immediate reduction and go, wow, this is great, this is wonderful. You know they'll see some movement and improvement.

Stacy LeBaron:

The other thing is a lot of people don't get that these community cat colonies or groups are created by who I call adam and eve. Right, so you know we have adam living in one house, friendly, unneutered adam. You know, friendly, unspayed eve living in another house. You know, adam starts spraying in the house. The house is a rental. The landlord's gonna victim. So adam has to go outside, right, eve is in heat. She's spraying all over the place too and yowling all night long and the baby's crying, and so then Eve has to go out. Well, there you go. There's Adam and Eve.

Stacy LeBaron:

We know what the rest of the story is. It's a lack of resources at that level, that lack of access to care for Adam and Eve. If Adam got neutered and Eve got spayed, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Sure so, because Adam would be, you know, much less likely to spray around the house and, you know, eve wouldn't be going into heat. I have had a cat in heat in my house. It drives me nuts Same, it's crazy. Yeah, yeah. And so you know, it's like we would have solved this problem much higher up on the sort of the food chain if we had gotten them access to affordable spay neuter. But no, they get pushed out. And then there's the. They have their kittens, and that's a home-based problem. It's a home-based situation and that we have to provide some reactive support to the cats out there. We also have an obligation to those cats, those owned cats, and this is why the owned cat programs or spay-neuter programs are just so critically important to be able to reduce the cat overpopulation situation in general.

Kristiina Wilson:

Do you have advice? This is again just just for my interest and hopefully it's relevant for listeners. This is just a podcast about what I am interested in. Do you have any suggestions for speaking to people who are from communities that may not believe in spay neuter for cultural reasons? I came from one of those communities in New York City and I really did 20 years of work trying to talk to people about like hey, this is it was exactly what you said that the male cats were peeing in the house. They put the cat on the street. I would take the cat, get it neutered, get it adopted. Then they put the female cat and it was just that same thing over and over and over again for 20 years and it was very difficult to make a dent in what was a real, just cultural difference in people not believing in altering their pets, and I understand that the basis for that thought, but not the inaction, right.

Stacy LeBaron:

So I don't know if you have any tips on on changing people's minds or how to approach those situations, or maybe you don't so I mean I, I honestly, I um, it's interesting because I I haven't really run into that in the communities that I've worked in right um, that have had that diversity level, but where it's been so, for I think I go to the kittens, I mean, and this is how we've also sold it to the politicians too is you know, you see that that kitten that was hit by a car, you see that you know those and and maybe more with the kids too, which is we don't need to see these kittens out there.

Stacy LeBaron:

I mean being an adult cat outside, you know, it's not ideal, it's not the greatest thing in the world, but once you hit about a year to a year and a half, and if you are a survivor, survivor community cat, you're, you figured it out, you figured out how to make it out there and you've, you know, got your support. But the kittens, my goodness, it's just, it's a tough life for a kitten out there.

Stacy LeBaron:

There's so many predators.

Stacy LeBaron:

So, you know, I sort of bring it back to the most vulnerable and just to say, you know, this is, this is not, um, what we want to see out there in the community on a regular basis and this is what's happening.

Stacy LeBaron:

And so, again, I would listen as much as possible to that. But the other thing too is, you know, the outdoor cat with the rodents and all that type of stuff, I mean you just, you want there's a public health issue behind that too, and so you can also say you know, obviously, you know, in Massachusetts at least you, you, you know, must have your cat vaccinated for rabies. And you know, while, while you're there, and if you offer it for free I mean getting people to pay for it is really tough but if you offer it for free or for like 25 bucks, um, they're going to say you know, I can get rabies vaccine and I can get a spay neuter, then that is ideal. You know there's more interest there. I did a project in Chelsea, massachusetts, about five years ago or so, and we would offer free microchipping and rabies vaccine and for the community and obviously while people were there, then you have the conversation about spay, neuter and all that kind of stuff while they're there and try and get that hooked in.

Stacy LeBaron:

So we'd get like over 300 attendees at these events and over half of them were cats and I was amazed because you know I can get the dog side of it. They've got licensing, they've got to get their vaccines for the dogs. We I was thrilled with how engaged the community was and it's a very Hispanic community and they were very as well as a variety it's very mixed culturally variety of folks that were just really really interested in coming out and getting the necessary vaccines and microchipping identification for their cats. It was really phenomenal the support.

Stacy LeBaron:

So again, I've probably worked in four or five, you know, doing targeted projects within specific communities, and I haven't had major, you know, statistically impactful, major problems. It's a handful of people, so it's like you know, it's like the few the few. What do you say? I mean, I don't mean to say bad apples, but you know the few bad apples in the back, Right. So, and then you also depend on the neighbors being influential too. Right, so I'm I'm not going to walk into a community and convince the community that this is a what they want to need to do with their cats. Right, It'll be neighbor.

Kristiina Wilson:

Exactly Can they want to need to do with their cats? Right, it'll be neighbor, exactly, can you? Again something you just mentioned, the vacuum effect. You have any strategies to keep the vacuum effect from happening? Because I'll say, at least here there's again, like I said, there are so many community cats and if you remove a few, you get this, the friendly ones, you get them adopted out. Or let's say, you take, you get one and you get it adopted out. Five to ten more fill that space. They are just constantly coming and it is a problem that people are constantly dumping their cats and there's just constantly more cats being bred but there doesn't seem to be a way, even in a managed have, to grow the moat.

Stacy LeBaron:

So when your colony has been fully sterilized, you have to grow that, that region, larger. So, like we started out in Newburyport, just covering Newburyport and the towns that were touching Newburyport. So, but we started out originally just focused on Newburyport, then we added Salbury, and then we added Amesbury, and in Newburyport, when we got the downtown under control, we had to go to the industrial park, and we also. What we did too was we would get periodic drop-offs at our 14 feeding stations, and so obviously we trapped them, we'd bring them in, put them up for adoption in the adoption center. But we also were very clear with the community as to if you are in need, if you are in need, this is you need to contact us and we'll respond quickly for emergency situations, and so actually, so we would have then carriers left in front of the door of the shelter or whatever. I'd much rather that than being let loose at a feeding station, right.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah.

Stacy LeBaron:

So that's one step closer. And now nowadays we don't have anybody, like it's very rare that there's a cat left in a carrier at our front door. It's more if they call in, they know that we are quick to respond. We have that capacity.

Stacy LeBaron:

And you know we work the cats in, but it's like the evolution over time. Now I, some shelters, some adoption centers operate as limited admission and so that's where people get pushed back because there's no immediate response and they're forced to make really unfortunate and difficult decisions. And so that's where you're seeing, you know, some of that abandonment coming out, which is extremely unfortunate. You're also not moving the needle because you may not have enough affordable spay neuter services for the owned population. So in 2000, I started a spay neuter program. On Sundays, free spay neuter, any cat in a trap, free.

Kristiina Wilson:

Amazing.

Stacy LeBaron:

Still happens. They still happen every month in Methuen Massachusetts. And we used to have like 100 to 120 cats at those Sunday clinics. Now we have maybe 35. And people travel from all over Rhode Island, I'm sure yeah.

Kristiina Wilson:

Travel all over to come.

Stacy LeBaron:

But from 2000 to 2008, we weren't moving the needle statistically with regards to intakes into the shelter because of those that we were just being reactive. We weren't at the source.

Stacy LeBaron:

So your area, in order to be impactful, to change that outdoor cat population, needs to offer um, spay, affordable spay neuter services for owned cats, I would say in a 5x to 10x range above what you think your feral, your community cat population. If you think you've got 200 community cats, you need to try and have spay neuter capacity for 2,000 cats, or 1,000 to 2,000 cats, that kind of thing. So, and that will just hit it right in the, we did this in Lowell, massachusetts. We had the cat mobile. We attacked the situation on the owned cat side. We had our mobile spay neuter clinic, our cat mobile, every Monday there doing spay neuter surgeries.

Stacy LeBaron:

So we did approximately 800 or so spay neuters for cats in the course of over three to four years, neuters for cats in the course of over three to four years, um, and they went from being incredibly overwhelmed with cats, overwhelmed, overwhelmed, overwhelmed, to what's a kitten? We never see a kitten anymore, we don't know what a kitten is. We had a pilot group, uh, low TNR, but they were working on the reactive, the TNR. And then that that group, the number of tnrs, uh, for you know, community cats out there got so low that the low humane society absorbed that group because they took on then the tnr obligation. So we have that story. It's actually on the united spay alliances um website the whole statistical story about how they got everything to all the numbers to drop substantially. But it's this TNR spay neuter, as well as the owned cat, spay neuter. It's a dance that we have to do together in order to be most impactful.

Kristiina Wilson:

Sure, that makes a lot of sense. It just well. It is overwhelming thinking about doing that in this community, which has just thousands and thousands of community cats, but it's so it's so possible.

Stacy LeBaron:

I mean, I started meetings with Lowell, the Lowell Humane Society. I went in we'd have these monthly meetings. Yeah, Woman out there who fed community cats and stuff and great for her, Wonderful. And I said you know, honestly, how many cats do you think we have? How many cats out there need assistance? And she, she really thought we had over a million cats in the community.

Stacy LeBaron:

And and you know, and that's what I heard, was this person saying I don't know, but this is overwhelming yes, now right, yeah, let's go on discovery, let's see what we can do, let's see how many we can do, and let's see how we can evaluate our impacts from from that and luckily, lowell Humane was pretty much the only game in town and so we could really use them to monitor our successes- Right.

Stacy LeBaron:

So I think it's you have to get a grasp of of things. And so at the podcast we're actually creating a community calculator, creating a community cat calculator so that organizations can take some geographic and socially economic information and really calculate the number of owned cats that they need to try and provide services for and the number of feral cats that need that would need to have TNR support. And you know, own cats it doesn't mean you have to pay the whole bill. It could be, you know, you could have a veterinarian do a third, you have your owner do a third, you could have your organization pay a third. You know, there there is some collaborative, uh efforts out there to try and make things more, more affordable. So, and neuters, my word. So if you do a neutering campaign you can right off the top you'll reduce, reduce your cat overpopulation by about 20% in one year.

Kristiina Wilson:

So yeah, and those are so much easier to handle too, right.

Stacy LeBaron:

There's proposals out there. Right now California has a pending proposal that to allow technicians to do cat neuters. So I'm hoping that'll be a trend because you can really do a lot. I mean, a lot of people go, oh well, no, it's the spays. You want to make sure you get the space, but there's some veterinarians out there that you know they want to give back to the community, but they just, they're just exhausted. Right, of course, yeah, and then. But if you say, hey, can you just throw off a few neuters, like, can you? And we also at the United Spay Alliance, where I'm the director of strategy, we're all about getting high-quality, high-volume spay-neuter techniques in private practice. So private practice is willing and able to do more surgeries during the course of a day a week and at the end of the day they can still charge a lot of money. They can still make money.

Kristiina Wilson:

Sure.

Stacy LeBaron:

It's going to reduce their burnout if they adapt these high quality, high volume spay neuter techniques also.

Kristiina Wilson:

Of course, you know, one study I've always been really interested in doing, but I don't think that the technology might be there now with cat DNA testing. I'm not sure I'd have to reach out again, but I've always been really interested in looking at community cat populations and seeing how many of them are interrelated on the male side, so that we see how many male cats are actually contributing to the birth of new kittens every year in various communities and how many male cats are not contributing right, and to see how that informs what we do in terms of TNR. I mean, obviously we would still TNR whoever we can get, but I'm very curious if it's just a select few males who are able to breed with all of these females or if it's all of the males which I don't know. I'm just curious.

Stacy LeBaron:

I'm personally just curious about this Well, and I think that we overestimate the actual reach of a of a unneutered male cat um I I I think that, um, because I mean based on I just did this uh situation in vermont where they did about 402 counties in the southern vermont, they did like 400 um neuters campaign and so you know, that's not a lot of cats, it's really not a lot, and they it's very quiet now, um, very, very quiet. And so they continued with their own neuter, spay, neuter program, you know, going on and those cats could have been owned. Um, they could have been, they could have been anything, but they were neuters. And but at the end of the day, I mean it's like, just just do something. Yeah, um, take what you can get and, um, and it'll make a difference. And I, I personally, I just, especially in a more rural area, you're just, you know, the, the male cats just not going to get around.

Kristiina Wilson:

Like you know, like in urban areas, male cats can get around a lot more they do and I've put trackers on them like real-time gps trackers on one who now lives with us, our cat kevin, who you know was a total feral avenue d like east village street guy who fathered so many kittens all over the place until I trapped you, did tnr on him and as his testosterone levels down he would come visit and get food and then eventually decided to come live with us. But many kittens all over the place until I trapped you, did TNR on him and as his testosterone levels down he would come visit and get food and then eventually decided to come live with us. But after I TNR him um, cause he was friendly, uh ask after a while I put a little GPS tracker on him to see where he went. His territory was insane. It was so huge and like it was pretty much all of downtown. He was crossing six lane highways. He was going all over the place.

Kristiina Wilson:

I was shocked and then terrified also for him and obviously he knew what he was doing. But I was like Kevin, no, like what are you doing? Where are you going? And it was so funny to just watch him walk around at night and like really go check on it, and I'm sure he had ladies stashed in like every corner. You know, thankfully he was shooting blanks at that point, but it was very interesting what resources are available for individuals or communities looking to implement TNR or address community cat issues, and I know we already talked about a lot of these, but are there any that you can think of in addition to the ones that you guys provide or ones that you provide that you haven't mentioned In terms of resources?

Stacy LeBaron:

so if you are thinking about getting involved in Trap Neuter Return, potentially starting a group or something like that, there is Neighborhood Cats has published a book called the TNR Handbook and it's available for PDF download on their website.

Stacy LeBaron:

It also comes as part of the package with the TNR certification program, and so I just recommend that as a first step of just getting on the whole process and everything rather than going. You know you should go here, you should go there, right? Um, neighborhood cats and allies still have really the best resources out there, you know, along with the community cats podcast. But we're more in the listening world, more in the visual of the videos and that kind of thing. So I always dream about folks listening, subscribing, subscribing to our podcast. They're out sitting there, you know, having their, their Dunkin Donuts or their other, their coffee or whatever, sitting in the car at two o'clock in the morning waiting for that last cat to go out under the drop trap or go into the app and they have nothing else to do, but they're going to listen to Stacy on the podcast talking about.

Stacy LeBaron:

People are also out there two o'clock in the morning trying to trap that last cat and prevent, you know, more kittens from being born out there and that kind of thing. So you know, please do subscribe to the podcast. Yes, in terms of like being, I think the TNR handbook that Neighborhood Cats has put together is just really the greatest like 101 type situation.

Kristiina Wilson:

For starters, Okay, and just to wrap up, what are some of the most rewarding aspects of working with community cats and what keeps you motivated to continue this work, because I know it's so easy to have compassion fatigue, especially when we do this kind of animal work have compassion fatigue, especially when we do this kind of animal work.

Stacy LeBaron:

Yeah, so I'm going to be honest, I had, I had a lot of fatigue when I was running the adoption center, when I was running the Merrimack River Feline Rescue Society after 16. I had a lot. I learned a lot about how to cope. The shower was my friend, the you know it was sort of that was like my go-to place to just sort of decompress from everything. I had a lot. I had two little kids at the time. You know I had upwards of 10 cats in the house and I it just. You know, I I'm with. I'm with anybody out there who's kind of feeling like their. Their cup is running over. Right, they always say the cup is too full. Yeah, make sure you're not too full. I used to always practice the skill of delegating one thing every week.

Stacy LeBaron:

I would always try, regardless of whether it was picking up one donation can or it was you know recruiting one more foster, or you know finding a foster home who would take a litter of kittens or whatever it was. You know, just trying to delegate out something that like a litter of kittens that I had in my house, get that, those kittens into a foster home, to offload something in my house, something that was impacting me, always trying to delegate something out to or giving it away, just to be comfortable with that practice, because I think in this, in this world, it's so easy for us to say, oh, I'm the only one who can do this, I, this is this is easy for us to say, oh, I'm the only one who can do this, I this is, this is, and I had to give away things that I loved.

Stacy LeBaron:

So if you found some that wanted, you know, in my weird and strange way, you know, I loved going to the bank and doing the deposits right, I loved it, but I gave that job away to somebody else just because then I was. You know, we take time off my yeah, I would save time and then I would have room to breathe and feel comfortable with that. So that's my little tip for people who feel like they're in the middle of it, and also to stay focused and really do follow a targeted model to the best of your capabilities, but ask for help outside of your region. So collaborate with others so that they can work more efficiently and effectively with others. And so I honestly am energized about the work that I am doing right now and I feel like I have to put like a public apology out to sort of the general world, because in my little bubble, merrimack River, feline Rescue Society has been really successful, incredibly successful. We did our first feline leukemia adoption in 1996. We were a cageless shelter by 2003.

Stacy LeBaron:

And so we wanted to always be kind of on the cutting edge. I feel that everybody should have what the Merrimack River Feline Rescue Society has. It is not impossible, it is. You know, there's nothing special about what we have done and I feel that I in my world would like to replicate this everywhere. I want these resources to be available for all people as well as the community cats. So we need to find out where those droughts are, the workforce droughts and we need to think strategically about how are we going to build up those areas to have the same levels of coverage and treat our cats with respect and our families with respect, and ensure that, you know, everybody's got the tools and the toolkit that they need to be able to be empowered to help the cats in their community.

Stacy LeBaron:

Because I didn't know, I grew up in my own little bubble out there in Massachusetts and I was like, oh, the rest of the world must act like this, it must be like this, right. And then I kind of grew up a bit and I realized, you know what? It's not happening elsewhere and I really think that's what I can bring forward. What we at the Community Cats Podcast can bring forward as a team is these tools and really help other people build them, develop them, create organizations that are supportive and embrace cats rather than want to harm cats in any way.

Kristiina Wilson:

I agree, and I would argue that you're the special sauce of your region there, so give yourself some credit.

Stacy LeBaron:

I don't know, I don't know, I think it's all I it I. You know who knows the why behind it? But let's create that why somewhere else. Right, it doesn't have to be one person that is true, that is true.

Kristiina Wilson:

But I just you know, give yourself a little pat on the back too. I think that's something that also, especially rescue people don't tend to do enough of. So thank you, just just you know. Uh, and then I just want to end with the question that we got from um a listener, which is how can I trap local ferals when everyone feeds them?

Stacy LeBaron:

yes, so, um, we do have a free webinar, um, and it is called um, the drop trap a trapper's best friend, and it is called the Drop Trap A Trapper's Best Friend, and it is done in partnership with Neighborhood Cats. The team at Neighborhood Cats does the presentation. I think we hold that webinar annually. We have what's called on YouTube the Everything TNR Playlist. So YouTube Everything TNR Playlist and the everything TNR playlist and the drop trap webinar is right there. It's a great tool so that if you do have people feeding and they're not willing to pull the food, obviously you want to ask your neighbors to please pull the food and see how that goes, but then using a drop trap is really a trapper's best friend and you can go be very selective about who you trap and all that. So tune in to the community cats podcast, the drop trap webinar, and then you can always feel free to reach out to me at stacy at communitycatspodcastcom if you have any further questions okay.

Kristiina Wilson:

Well, I want to thank you so much, stacey, for being on the podcast, and I want to encourage everyone to listen to the Community Cats podcast. I can't talk anymore Like follow, subscribe, review all the things that you're supposed to do on a podcast for all of you who I know are super interested in helping rescue and TNR cats and just thank you so much for all of your knowledge and all the help that you are giving to our community cats and thank you so much for talking with me today.

Stacy LeBaron:

Thank, you so much for having me. This is wonderful show and I think it's great.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yay, Thank you. Thanks for listening, as always. If you enjoyed the podcast, please go ahead and give us a rating and or a review. We'd super appreciate it. You can find our social medias Instagram and TikTok at Hiss and Tell Podcast. For cat behavior consultations, go to catitude-adjustmentcom. Ready Phoebe Music provided by Cat Beats.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Kristiina Wilson

Host