Hiss & Tell: Cat Behavior and Beyond

Cat Minds Decoded with Dr. Kristyn Vitale

• Kristiina Wilson • Season 2 • Episode 32

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Ever wondered what's really going on inside your cat's mind? Prepare to have your understanding of feline behavior completely transformed in this captivating conversation with Dr. Kristyn Vitale, a certified applied animal behaviorist and pioneering researcher in feline social cognition.

Dr. Vitale dismantles the persistent myth that cats are solitary creatures, revealing compelling evidence of their complex social lives. She explains how domestic cats have evolved far beyond their wildcat ancestors, developing remarkable flexibility to thrive in diverse social environments. From free-ranging colonies to multi-cat households, cats form sophisticated social networks with clear preferences for certain companions over others—just like we do.

The conversation explores fascinating discoveries about cats' cognitive abilities that rival those of dogs. Your feline companion can actually read your emotions, follow your pointing gestures, and adjust their behavior based on your reactions to new situations. That "tail up" greeting isn't just cute—it's a deliberate social signal communicating confidence and friendliness. Dr. Vitale reveals the subtle cues cats use to communicate with each other and with us, often through signals so delicate that most humans miss them entirely.

For multi-cat households, this episode offers practical wisdom to reduce tension and conflict. Learn why resource distribution trumps dominance hierarchies, why rushing introductions between cats often backfires, and how to tell the difference between play and aggression. Dr. Vitale's research-backed insights will transform your relationship with your cat, helping you create an environment where they can express their natural behaviors and thrive socially.

Whether you're a devoted cat parent or simply curious about these mysterious creatures, this episode will forever change how you view feline behavior. Join us to discover the extraordinary social intelligence of cats and gain a deeper understanding of what your cat is really trying to tell you. Check out Dr. Vitale's work at maueyes.com or follow her on social media to continue exploring the fascinating world of feline cognition.

Kristiina Wilson:

Hi and welcome to Hiss and Tell a Cat Behavior and More podcast hosted by me, Kristiina Wilson, animal behaviorist. Today I am thrilled to be joined by one of my absolute favorite feline researchers, Dr Kristyn Vitale. She is a certified applied animal behaviorist and a leading expert in feline social cognition and behavior. We are going to talk about everything from the myth of the solitary cat to the science of tail up greetings and how cats read emotions. So if you've ever wondered what your cat really thinks of you or whether they're training you, this is an episode you don't want to miss.

Kristiina Wilson:

Welcome to another episode of Hiss and Tell. I am your host, Kristiina Wilson, and with me today is Kristyn Vitale. She is a certified applied animal behaviorist and feline researcher. Welcome, Kristyn. Hi, thanks for having me. Thank you for being here. I am so excited. You are one of my favorite feline researchers so I'm super, super excited to have you today. I could literally talk about all of your papers. I think. I have read all of them, I think, but I reread several of them for today, so I'm really excited about that. That is my little fangirling moment. So can you tell me a little bit about how you became a feline behavior researcher, kind of like your education and background and all of that jazz.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, so I did. I went to school for zoology and actually social geography.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

But while I was in my in my undergrad I met a professor named Dr Penny Bernstein who was researching cat behavior and the cat human relationship and I was like eye opening. I was like this is like a job that I could do. So after I met her, I started working with her and then kind of just kept on that track. I went to grad school and did a master's of environmental science where I studied free ranging cat social behavior, and then went on to my PhD in animal science where I studied cat social cognition and the cat human relationship. And now I'm working at a university still continuing that line of research and I'm also, as you mentioned, a certified applied animal behaviorist and I just want to let all our listeners know that that process to get that certification is a very long and involved process.

Kristiina Wilson:

So I know a lot of people who are ACABs, but it really is like a very admirable feat to have that. So thank you very much.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, no, I mean my goals to get that done.

Kristiina Wilson:

Also, what about your pets? Do you have cats at home?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, I have three cats so all boys. I've got two brothers they're Carl and Kevin and then one older cat named Bo. So our three kitties who actually just had a big adventure. We just moved across the country, so they are well traveled, they've been on an airplane and they're getting used to their new house plane and they're getting used to their new house.

Kristiina Wilson:

That's exciting, yeah, wow. So your research challenges a lot this common perception that cats are solitary animals. Can you kind of talk a little bit about the social flexibility of domestic and free-ranging cats and maybe a little bit about why there is this misconception that cats are not social?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, I think a lot of that stems from this idea that because they evolved from a solitary ancestor, the African wildcat, that means domestic cats are also solitary. However, when you look at the social situations these cats are living in, they're living in human homes, with people, with other cats, with other species like dogs. They're living in very complex social environments. Yeah, and to say they're species like dogs, they're living in very complex social environments and to say they're not social or that they're solitary doesn't really make much sense.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

And when we look at free-ranging cat behavior so basically cats that live outdoors, that don't have constraints on their movement we don't see that they are strictly solitary. In fact we see both forms of living. We see them living solitarily as well as socially in these groups and really what dictates that is the resource distribution in the environment. So basically, every social living cat group that we see is going to be in an area of resources, so somewhere where all these cats can congregate and also share food, share shelter. So we don't really see social living when prey is just naturally distributed out the way that normally.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

You know, there's a chipmunk here, a bird there. We're going to see the cats living solitarily just because there's not the resources there to form a social group Right, but when the resources are available, we do see these social groups form and these groups do have distinct relationships. So there's certain individuals within the group who prefer to interact with other individuals and prefer to avoid other individuals, just the same way that we have friends that we want to interact with and others that we don't want to interact with or talk to. So, yeah, there's a lot of flexibility in cat social behavior and a lot of it is dependent on that individual cat's experience that they've had growing up, as well as the environment that they're faced with.

Kristiina Wilson:

Right, so is that what you mean when you describe them as social?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

generalists. Yeah, basically that they have a variety of strategies that they can use to live in social groups and can live in a variety of strategies that they can use to live in social groups and can live in a variety of different social settings. So again, we see cats living in social groups outside, living in social groups in our home, living in businesses like cat cafes. There's a whole wide array of social environments these cats are living in and adapting to Right.

Kristiina Wilson:

So in that same review of free-ranging cats you revealed that higher ranked cats in the groups had the tail up sign, which I think most of us who have cats are familiar with. Right, when they come up to greet you, they mostly raise their tails up, sometimes with the little curl at the top. Do you think that we can kind of extrapolate from that that if that we are the higher ranked cat at home, if our cats greet us with the tail up?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

so I think that social ranking is something that we actually don't really understand real well in cats and I think part of that is because we see this flexibility in the social groups, where maybe some groups do have more of a ranking, other groups don't. Right, but it hasn't really been described consistently in the literature. Um, I would say that, as far as the tail up goes, even though there has been research that's found that the signal of the tail up depends on the individual who's giving the tail up as well as who's receiving that Right, I think in general we can say the tail up is a social signal that the cat is feeling confident and secure in their situation and in a friendly mood. Cat is feeling confident and secure in their situation and in a friendly mood. So I think when the cat does it, they are doing it in, in a sense, that they're signaling that they're our friend, that they're being friendly to us.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

But I'm not sure if I can say it's because they see us as higher up or more dominant, because typically, when we were talking about like ranking or hierarchy, we're more concerned within the species, so between other cats, because often those behaviors are done to kind of mediate resource control. So if everyone knows their place in the hierarchy, then everyone knows that they're eventually going to get all the resources they need. And with people it's not so much an issue because they're not in competition for resources from us. We're more caregiving, we're giving them the resources. So I think the relationship's a little different. But we definitely can say that a tail up signals a friendly, friendly encounter from the cat and that they're maybe looking to engage in further social interaction with us.

Kristiina Wilson:

That actually also brings up another point, and I just realized I just dove right into questions and didn't even ask you to summarize or kind of like talk at all about this study, because I got so excited. I was like, oh, let's just go right into my questions, so I'm definitely gonna backtrack. It made me want to talk to you a little bit about what's out there in the lore where people wonder oh, does my cat actually think I'm just a big kitten or what? What does my cat think I am? So, based on your research, what do you think cats think that we are?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, yeah, I've kind of I have heard that thought that they kind of see us like, as big cats in a sense, and I can't say that I agree with that, just because, well, first of all, we don't look or smell or present in any way like another cat.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

We present ourselves like humans and human beings and even how we're, you know, initiating that interaction. We're not going up and rubbing against another cat or grooming them or petting them or, you know, picking them up. So our behaviors are very much not aligned with cat behavior. And I also think our relationship with them is different in that we're providing that caretaking behavior, we're feeding them every day, we're providing them with everything they need to live, their shelter, their medical care, and in our research we do see that that relationship is more akin to like a parent offspring relationship than it is two cats interacting. So I think that there's some subtle differences, but in general, cats are still going to be interacting with us as a cat. So it's still really important to know how cats interact and try to see how that impacts the human cat relationship. But in the end, yeah, that two-way street is going to be very different because the other person on the other end of it's not a cat Right. There's going to be adjustments that need to be made.

Kristiina Wilson:

Absolutely. I think it was in the free-ranging cat paper where you were discussing cats who were interacting with other wildlife. You know, recognizing raccoons and deer and obviously I would assume that if they are recognizing other species and dealing with them in various different ways, they're also certainly capable of recognizing humans as a different species and not as a cat.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

absolutely yeah yeah, and I think, though, like some of that comes from this idea of like they are still going to be interacting with us in a cat-like way because they are cats, yes, so I still think, like some of it's true in the sense that they're going to adjust those behaviors for interaction with us, but in the end they're they're still, I think, distinct differences between how they're going to approach another cat versus a person, right?

Kristiina Wilson:

that absolutely makes sense. So backtrtracking can you because I did not handle this well at all can you give us a little overview of that lit review that you did about free-ranging cats?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah. So in my master's I had studied a colony of free-ranging cats. I was looking at the social behavior they displayed to one another and basically what factors could influence that. And after that work I realized, hey, there doesn't seem to be one paper that's compiled all the information that we know on free ranging cats. So that was something I wanted to do. So I basically did a thorough literature review any paper I could find that looked at free-ranging cats and social behavior between them and included that in the review and then basically summarized what I had found within that paper. And so what?

Kristiina Wilson:

were some of your main findings.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

I think the most interesting thing was that these social groups can look so many different ways. You know, within the literature, historically these colonies have really been described like the core of the colony is the mother, the females that are actively reproducing their offspring, and then these males are kind of along the periphery. But from the research I've done for that paper, as well as the colonies that I've observed and worked with, that's not the only way that a colony can form or exist and, for example, in my colony that I studied, 6% of them were spayed and neutered, so they weren't actively reproducing Right, and a lot of them were males in the core of the colony interacting with other males. So I think that was just the most interesting thing that these colonies can be so flexible and can look different depending on the individuals involved, as well as just what resources are around and how the whole colony is being treated. So yeah, that was an interesting finding. Just these historically talked about mother offspring colonies are not the only way that a cat colony can look. Sure.

Kristiina Wilson:

You know what I wanted to just personally ask you about. So you have this whole bit at the end about the male-on-male mounting that you observed.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Was that? Yeah, that was in a paper. I didn't personally observe it though. Oh, okay, but yeah. I forget offhand what it is though.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, okay, there was 26 cases of male-on-male mounting from 14 male dyads. This was just very interesting to me because in our house we have 13 cats. Yeah, we have seven, six males and seven females, and the males are all. One of them is 100% gay and he just is obsessed with all the other boys and like that's fine, he's our you know gay cat and we celebrate him. But else there has been so much male on male action and they're all neutered and they're all specifically going after, like this, one particular younger guy. It doesn't seem to be a dominance behavior. Nobody's interested in the females. I can't figure out exactly what is going on, to the point where even my friend who's a vet and I are wondering is this younger guy, is he intersex? Like is something happening? I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

Kristiina Wilson:

Just because it was in the paper, I was like, oh, I'm going to bring that up.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, I don't know too much about that outside of just what I had mentioned in that paper, but I have I mean, I've observed my two sibling boys engage in that too. We don't have any females in our house right now, but I do wonder if it's kind of just like a displacement behavior, like they're not. They know they want to engage in that behavior, but they're not quite sure what to do with it. And maybe they're doing it towards other males because those are the individuals in the house they're more comfortable with or something about them, Right? I'm not sure, but that's a really interesting question and something I don't think we really know anything about, because a lot of times people say, oh, you get them neutered and that's going to take care of it.

Kristiina Wilson:

Oh no, but it doesn't. It doesn't at all. Yeah, I was having a whole discussion with my wife about it last night, because our cats have always been very sexually active, even though obviously they're all spayed and neutered. I have a lot of clients or not a lot, but I've had several clients who come to me exactly because they're like I'm so disturbed.

Kristiina Wilson:

My cat is, you know, fellating himself and I don't know what to do about it and they don't understand that, like they're, of course they're still like urges and feelings happening, um, after spay neuter, um, but I did, I looked, tried to go to literature to see have there been any studies about, and there's really nothing, um, and I'm, I'm just very curious what's going on.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, but you might have an interesting case study in your house, someone needs to come there and look at what's going on with your boys, I know.

Kristiina Wilson:

So, moving on to the feline and cognition review, which was also super interesting, can you give us just a brief overview on that, and then I will jump into all of the questions that I had for you.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, so for that again, I just kind of wanted to look at all the literature that I could find in terms of feline cognition and kind of summarize it and pull it all together for people, because there has been, especially in the past you know, 10-15 years a lot more research in this field coming from all over the world. Yeah so, and even now I had published a different paper in 2015. Now that's 10 years out of date already. Yeah, so there's there's so much that's probably not even included in that review that's already been done, but it's impossible to keep up.

Kristiina Wilson:

I know. So. The review highlights the ability of cats to learn through observation and social interactions. How does this sort of challenge the stereotype that cats are untrainable or not as smart as dogs?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, so you know, I think a lot of that comes from just like not understanding how animals in general learn.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

We all learn from the same learning principles. You know we're all able to form these associations in our environment. We're able to learn from the consequences of our behavior and change our behavior and response, and cats are no different. I mean, cats are known for being curious and intelligent, but they can't be trained like these studies. Things don't line up to me and training is really just the intentional application of natural learning processes. So cats have the ability to learn and as far as training, it's just if the person wants to train them or not, because cats are always watching you and learning from you, whether you're actively training them or not.

Kristiina Wilson:

They're learning.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

When they hear that can open, it means food. They learn that when you get up in the morning, it means food. They learn that when they come running, when they hear their toy jingle, they get to play. So yeah, this idea that cats are not trainable is just not true, not supported, and a lot of it just has to do with what the person expects out of the cat, as well as just identifying what the cat wants to work for and it's not always a treat, sometimes it's social interaction. So yeah, that's really the biggest hurdle with cat training, I think, is just figuring out what the cat likes and then having the human spend time with them to begin the training.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, I think. I think often it's like you noted, it's noted in the intercat conflict guidelines is that, like you said, often it's not a food reward, often it is play, often it is praise for for our Kevin. He wants to hear good job Kevin, he loves good job Kevin. He just is like whoo. That's his highest reward. So I do think that really getting to know your cat number one is super important, but also learning what is their highest value reward and what can you deliver fairly rapidly is super important. And then, moving on to since we're already kind of talking a little bit about associative concept training, what do you think about all of the animals who are using the AAC buttons for speech?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, I think, again, those are just natural learning processes that are being utilized for training. I think it's. If we're taking it a little too far, we're not. You know like I've seen animals like press a button and then the person's like, oh, that means they love me, but I'm not quite sure like how you can know what the intent behind that is. So I do caution going too far with it. But I think it can be a fun training exercise and I was actually working with my cat with buttons to one button signified if you press it, they got food.

Kristiina Wilson:

One button.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

if you press it, they get social, social play with their toy. So we were doing some discrimination like that and I think that's totally great, great exercise for training and, you know, just fun. But yeah, I do, caution going too far with it. How can you know? Some of these more complex things are being expressed through the buttons. I'm not sure we can, but yeah, I agree.

Kristiina Wilson:

So anyway, moving back to your particular research, this paper also highlighted that some cats have a preference for visual cues when people are doing studies with them, while others have a preference for olfactory cues. So what does that tell us about differences in cat cognition? And was there any literature about using auditory cues? Because isn't the cat's best sense hearing?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, so as far as what it tells us, it tells us that, just like people, cats have different ways of learning, so same learning processes, but they might utilize different stimuli in the environment more as an anchor to learn from. And so, yeah, that research shows that if you're always only relying on visual cues for training, you might be missing out on a portion of individuals who don't learn that way or don't learn best that way. And that's a really great point. About auditory I haven't seen anything comparing auditory cues to others, but I think auditory and olfaction are going to be the two big ones for cats.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, which was actually interesting, I think it was only one or two individuals preferred the olfactory cues, so I was actually surprised it wasn't more. But it kind of goes back to that whole idea of preferences and identifying what your individual cat most prefer, because it might not be what you think. Again, most people would just think give them a treat, but in our research we've seen actually petting or playing is going to be what the majority of cats are preferring, right? So, yeah, I think it just comes back down to training that don't make assumptions and potentially try different ways of helping your cat learn and see which way they seem to learn fastest from Right.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, that's. That's one thing that has always kind of made me nuts about looking at cat studies really studies of all different species is how human-centric they are, especially when looking at stuff like theory of mind and mirror self-recognition and doing, you know, mirror self-recognition with so many animals whose primary sense is not vision and then being like, well, they don't have it, so I guess they're dumb.

Kristiina Wilson:

I was just always really surprised at the lack of thinking about a cat's primary senses versus how we're just kind of designing studies that we would prefer for them, and even for dogs. But I think now dogs are being given a little bit more leeway when we're designing studies for them, but so many studies for cats are still really primarily vision-based. That it's just odd to me, because cats have not really great vision. My English is awful today, not great, not really great vision.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Another thing that that actually brings up in my mind is like these discrete trial methodologies. So like for a pointing task. Typically, how you would do is you bring an individual behind the line, point to a location. They approach the location or not, you reset them behind the line, do it again, and you might do that 10 or 15 times. But cats are not necessarily set up to engage that way, you know a dog goes on walks, they scavenge A cat.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

You might need to adjust the methodology a little bit to be more cat specific, because they don't seem to do as well with that discrete trial method, which is why, in that preference assessment we ran, you could do the same kind of here's two choices, paired stimulus which choice do you prefer? Okay, go back, here's two more choices. But instead we did something called free operant which allowed the choices to be out all at once and gave the cat control what choice they wanted to approach and for how long. And so a lot of it is just kind of like we can look at the same concept, but we might just have to shift it slightly for the species we're working with. Consider their evolutionary background. Are cats really going to engage in discrete trial methods the same way as dogs? Maybe, maybe not. But if they're not, then we need to adjust it yeah, I've.

Kristiina Wilson:

I've run into that, even with people who are doing clicker training or taking that further and doing target training with their cats at home just to do intellectual stimulation, and when people are using target training and I don't really teach that one of my colleagues, julie Poslins, who runs cat school- is amazing.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, julie's awesome.

Kristiina Wilson:

And she teaches that. So I just always like send people to her because she's so great and that's her whole, her whole thing. But when I target train at home with our guys, they respond so much better to a sound, to targeting to a sound, than targeting to the actual just holding the stick around, because it's so much easier for them to identify and I've had success in working with clients having them do that. So I do think that like valuing their auditory system over their visual system can be really helpful, especially for some cats.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

And that's a great point too. Like I think we as trainers get stuck in this way of doing it, like, oh well, you need a target object for them to target Right, but the stimulus doesn't really matter. You can train them to approach just about anything and, like you're saying, it could be an auditory cue. So we shouldn't get like stuck in these boxes just because this is how it's done in dog training or this is how it's always been done. Let's be creative and we might be able to find new ways of helping them learn. Yeah, it's a great point.

Kristiina Wilson:

And you can just take that target stick and tap it on something.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

That's a good point.

Kristiina Wilson:

That's all you have to do and it solves the problem of your cat like looking around, and not especially if you're in a room where everything, like our house, everything is like earth tones and stone and wood, and except for my office, which is 8, but you know that's me and so often I think for him it's really hard to see in a room that has wood paneling and brown carpet and the target that's like an orange, like it's all I think mashes into the same brown. So you need to hear that like, click, the like, little, like a sound of something actually hitting like a harder surface, and then he immediately goes to that target. So anyway, that's my soapbox of let's value our cats actual, like preferred senses. Yes, I shall move on. Um, so so can you tell us a little bit about how cats are able to pick up on human cues we just talked a little bit about that, but like pointing facial cues and sort of adjust their own behaviors in response?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah. So it's been found that in terms of following pointing cues to find a hidden reward, cats are just as successful in that as dogs. And then in terms of being able to read, like human emotion, it's been found that cats do pick up on that. It's something called social referencing, so this idea that say, we're like all in a classroom and somebody walks in in a gorilla suit. We might be like what the heck's going on? I don't know how to react in the situation. So you look at the person next to you and you see that they're all calm and they're not worried about it. So you adjust your behavior like, oh, I guess I need to be calm too. This isn't't anything to worry about. Versus, if the person next to you looks terrified and like they might run out of the room, you might also be on edge and adjust your behavior accordingly. And it's the same with cats. In research they found that, depending if the owner was afraid of an object or happy about an object, the cat adjusted their behavior to some extent based on how that person was reacting. So this is really important knowledge, I think, for cat owners, because it just goes to show that cats are picking up on our behavior. They're picking up on very subtle, even like visual and auditory cues from us based on how we're, how we're reacting to a situation, and they're picking up on that and deciding how to react in response, right.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

So things like going to the vet you know, obviously there can be very emotional things happening at the vet, but it's almost like a child. If you're very upset and kind of you know over the top about something, then the cat might pick up on that and become even more afraid. So I'm not saying we should always have our emotions in check. You know I've been at the vet during some very upsetting times and obviously we are people with emotions. But it also is something to consider that your cat might be able to pick up on that and it might be something that could, you know, help comfort them if you're able to put on kind of a brave face. Same thing in the house. You know cats are picking up if we are training them and we're getting frustrated with them and they're able to pick up on that and so let's end the session before we get too frustrated. So a lot of it is about looking at our own behavior and how it can impact our cat's behavior as well.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, absolutely. I think those are all excellent points and I will just bring up an example, because I was thinking about this the other day is that we just I don't know where you are in the country, but we were in Connecticut and we just got a ton of snow and so a snowplow came through, you know, to plow our driveway, and the kittens that we have had never heard a snowplow before and it's loud, right Like when they come through and they're just like shoving everything on you know a gravel driveway. It's really loud. And so I was playing with them and I saw them look at me to see, well, how's this lady? And in my head I'm the lady to the cats they're just like, oh, it's this lady.

Kristiina Wilson:

So they were just like, oh, how's the lady going to react? And so I just made sure I was just talk to them in like a very normal modulated tone of voice, normally through the whole sound of the plow being here, and just acted normal and made sure I had really relaxed body posture and they really watched me the whole time. And then they also watched the other cats in the room who had heard a plow before and they they weren't reactive because they watched all of us modeling calm behavior and we weren't reactive. They were not reactive, and so now they've learned, since we've had more snow and the plows come through, and when I've seen them they haven't been reactive. So they very quickly learned.

Kristiina Wilson:

Well, this isn't anything to be worried about, you know. So I do think that's super important behavior for people and also if you want to teach your cats to not be afraid of the vacuum, or you know, that involves a little bit more like desensitization and counter conditioning, but you can really easily model non-fearful behavior for your pets because they are like you said, they're always watching you absolutely yeah, but yeah again, like you said, it's, uh, not perfect and definitely um.

Kristiina Wilson:

In times of stress, like lately, I have been extremely stressed because of everything going on.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

That's what I did want to say. Like we're not perfect and I'm not perfect. I've gotten upset in front of my cats or been upset at the vet, you know whatever, but it is something to keep like in the back of your mind. Yes, that if you're able to, in a situation like, like you said, model the behavior you'd like to see your cat display like a calm demeanor, then then that's something that, um, you should do if you're able to yeah, absolutely so.

Kristiina Wilson:

Going back just to pick up where we were talking about, about cats picking up on human cues. Cats are able to understand human pointing, right right when I think a lot of people don't know that cats can understand pointing. I know people think that, know that dogs can, but cats can also understand a human point.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yes, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of gestures. I think that cats are picking up on with us, that they are just naturally learning from living in homes with us, the same way, you know, dogs are. There's a discussion on whether some of these behaviors were acquired during domestication or learned throughout their lives, but I think, either way, both animals are very in tune with their um, with their human caretakers, and, yeah, even things like um. Dr vonk looked at facial expressions and found that cats were paying attention to their owners. I believe it was happy facial expressions and so again, they're even looking at things like how we're projecting our emotions onto our face. So very complex sociocognitive skills for people who think cats are just solitary, you know, without any of these skills, and even with each other. There was a recent paper that just came out looking at cats' facial expressions with each other.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yes, she was involved in that too. Oh, great yeah.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, so maybe you've already talked about this, but basically that they're subtly adjusting their facial expressions for interactions with each other and will mirror each other's facial expressions, and when they do so, that's often followed up by friendly interactions. Yeah, so there's a lot going on, um that we might not even be picking up on because they're so subtle, right?

Kristiina Wilson:

yeah, yeah, cats are masters of subtlety and I think humans, we're so used to our big gestures and big expressions that, unless you're really observing your cats all the time or Doing camera studies, which I am a huge proponent of, I love a camera study.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, that the naked eye isn't.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, I really. I love telling my clients and my friends just put cameras all over the place, because then you know You'll have all the data and you just have it all and you can scroll through it at night while your wife is trying to sleep.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, that's really annoying, but it's. They're so helpful if you want to see how does your cat normally act. What are their bathroom habits? Are they not going to the bathroom with the same amount of time? Like there's so many things that you can find out. Now I'm going on another tangent.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

No, but it's so true and I think that's a lot of the problem is people miss, like the signals being given off by their cats. When, like to people who see cat behavior, it's like, oh, the cat's screaming, they want to be left alone, like leave them alone. But I think, like videotaping interactions with your cat is a big help because then you can learn what not only cats in general do when they're feeling frustrated or upset, but what your individual cat is doing when it needs space or when it does want interaction. So, yeah, I think reading behavior is like a great skill that more owners or cat caregivers need to really kind of hone in order to be able to interact with their cats better. I totally agree.

Kristiina Wilson:

So, moving from that into the amazing Intercat Tension Guidelines, I'm going to read the actual title Amazing intercat tension guidelines. I'm going to read the actual title for AAFP intercat tension guidelines recognition, prevention and management, and I will put a link to this on the episode webpage so that everyone can download it if they want. Again, I send this to all of my clients who come to me for intercat tension, because this is such a thorough, incredibly well-written, just amazing guideline and management strategy that I think for everyone to read. So, moving to that, do you want to talk about what it is? Just briefly, and then we'll go into the discussion about it. Yeah, sure.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

So this was a group of us who got together to help create these guidelines for the AAFP, and it was really focused on this issue that we see a lot in multi-cat households, which is tension as well as aggression between individuals, where the tension goes even further. And so some of this was really just trying to point out some of these subtle signs of tension you know, blocking a doorway, blocking resources or some of the stress behaviors that an individual might be displaying. And then one big thing that was part of it too was being able to tell the difference between play and aggression, because a lot of play behaviors are kind of aggressive behaviors that have been adapted for play, and so that was some of the stuff we wanted to hit on in these guidelines basically how to identify when tensions occurring and what to do about it.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, I think both of those are things that I want to get into more depth. I think that the former point is a little bit easier to just touch on is the difference between play and aggression, and I would just say off the bat that play is silent and aggression generally isn't. You'll at least hear something. I don't know if you want to expand on that a little bit more, how to tell the difference between play and an actual fight.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, I think really, as you mentioned, the absence of some of these more intense vocalizations like growling and hissing you're not going to be hearing a lot of that if any of that and these behaviors are going to be inhibited, which means they're not going to be hearing a lot of that, if any of that and these behaviors are going to be inhibited, which means they're not going to be done to their fullest extent. Right, so you're not. If a cat's biting the skin on another cat, they're not going to be biting with such force that they're breaking the skin. If they're raking their back legs up against another cat, they're not going to have their claws out with fur flying. So all these behaviors are going to be more scaled back because the aim is not to harm or threaten the other individual.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

You'll also see brief pauses in the interaction. So there'll be a pause where both cats have the opportunity to run off and escape, but they don't and instead one one reinitiates and you'll see kind of this taking turns of reinitiating the play about as well, which goes again to show that this is something that they're voluntarily participating in and not, you know, being forced to defend themselves. So I think a lot of those. When you look all together, it's really that inhibition of behavior, that there's brief pauses, stop, starts and reinitiation, and then the lack of other aggressive behaviors such as growling, hissing, cuffing with the claws out instead of being in things like that.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, absolutely, I will say this is just obviously anecdotal, but Tubbs, the kitten who I was on screen a little bit ago, he and one of our other cats, butters. They love to play and, yeah, they're both floofy, crazy people. And Tubbs is only like eight months old. He is very like, just very large and in charge, and he has developed a technique where he somehow learned that two of them love wrestling. They do it all the time and they're really good friends. But he learned that if he hisses it gets Butters to stop right and so that gives him kind of an advantage, because he's still a kitten and so Butters will be like oh no, I've gone too far playing with this kitten, and then he gets a couple seconds advantage to then be able to turn, go on the offensive uh-huh and at first we were so concerned because they would be playing.

Kristiina Wilson:

We'd hear this like rapid hissing and we'd be like, oh no, like butters is playing too hard with this kitten, this is so bad, and we'd break it up. And then I realized he's doing this on purpose. It's giving him this advantage and he's being a little jerk, yeah, and eventually he's gonna be like the kitten who cried wolf, because now nobody pays attention when he hisses that is a really good point and that's something that actually my two boys do my cat carl like they'll be wrestling and everything seems like it's.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

You know, play like it's, it's reciprocal. But then he'll start like almost like like crying, like this. I don't even know how to describe the vocalization he does, but it's not a growl, it's not a hiss, it's like kind of like a modified meow. But at first I thought like oh, he's being hurt, this isn't reciprocal. Like he's trying to get away because he is the smaller cat in this situation, right. But over time I've realized like he's just like being a drama king about it. Like he, because as soon as he has the opportunity to get away, he reinitiates with him. Yeah, so I do think there's some like individual differences, as we've already talked about, in how that play develops, and maybe some cats might vocalize during it, like my cat Carl's doing. But again, it really comes down to like watching that behavior. No harm is coming to either of them and they both seem to be actively participating.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

And then the other thing I want to mention too and this was something that I discussed with my mentor, dr Monique Udell was during play we don't expect to see stress, a lot of stress behavior. But we might see some, because if you think about it, like if we go and play sports or we're like in a wrestling match with someone, we might be having fun until we start losing and then we might start getting frustrated. So even if sometimes there is like a stress behavior here or there, if overall the interaction appears to be friendly and they end, you know, sleeping together or they began sleeping together and turned into play, all of that context matters, which, again, I think is why it can be hard for people to distinguish play, yes, but I think when you just look at the overall picture of what's going on, you can usually tell.

Kristiina Wilson:

Absolutely, and I think that's another situation, at least especially for when I have clients come to me, where recording visuals is really helpful, being able to have something. I always say like taping it because I like to date myself just tape it.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Hey, I say tape it yeah yeah, like a VHS tape.

Kristiina Wilson:

yeah, get it on beta and send it on in such a moron, yeah. So if you can record I'm trying to train myself to say record instead of tape it If you can record it if you don't want to have cameras going on in your house all the time, but if you can record it, it's really helpful also to slow it down and then you can kind of look at like a slow-mo version or a frame by frame version to look at what are the ears doing Like are to look at what are the ears doing like. Are they actually like making a hard bite contact? Are the claws out? Like what is what exactly is happening? Um, and then if you're really concerned, you can send that to a vet or a behavior professional right and and go from there.

Kristiina Wilson:

So the guidelines that you wrote, uh, do debunk the idea that cats have these rigid dominance hierarchies and I think hopefully by now listeners understand that dominance hierarchies in general for cats and dogs are based on old junk science that was refuted in the 70s, based on captive wolves, that the author came out and retracted his study. So this whole thing about alpha and beta, animals and people, it's not real correct science. So what are the real drivers of inter-cat conflict in multi-cat households?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

I would say a lot of it is the resource distribution. So, as I believe we talked about earlier, when cat colonies form it's all about the resource distribution and we see that within the homes as well, that in order to have healthy, stable interactions within the house you need to have the resources allocated in such a way. So, for example, we talked about with inner cat tension. A cat might just block the resources or the door to where all the resources are. So if you have all the food, water and litter boxes in a single room, it's really easy for a single cat to kind of monopolize all of that Right Versus. If you have it more spread out, then each cat can kind of have their privacy as they go get water over here while another cat's at the water dish in the other room. So a lot of the time we talk about distributing those resources within the home so that cats are able to kind of walk around the house and patrol their area without you know having to have just one single spot monopolized by one cat Right.

Kristiina Wilson:

I think litter box blocking is such a huge issue for people who have inter-cat tension. I hear about that all the time.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

We've had that in our house and we have eight million litter boxes for 13 cats, I know right, yeah, I can imagine I feel like I have a million for three.

Kristiina Wilson:

I know, but litter box blocking can be a real issue and as I think you noted in the guidelines, sometimes when you have intercat aggression, those microchip doors can be really helpful to kind of mediate. If you've done kind of separation and reintroduction and like all the other strategies, having microchip doors so that one cat can have access to a safe room or a safe area where they can toilet so that you don't start having inappropriate toileting issues, can be really super helpful, absolutely. What are some strategies for introducing a new cat into a multi-cat household to minimize tension?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, I think the key thing is don't rush into it. A lot of people they get so excited that they have a new cat and they want to see how the cats are all going to react, that it's like they might not even give it an hour before all the cats are fully introduced. Do you know?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

what I mean Just kind of throw it trial by fire, right, but really take your time.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

I think that you know slow introductions is the way to go and make sure that that cat as you just mentioned, the new cat has a space where it feels safe and where it feels like it can retreat to, because all these other cats they've already been living in this environment, they probably have their spots all picked out.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

So make sure that that cat has its own safe spot as well and then slowly kind of expand that out. At first give it some toys from the other cat, play with the new cat with those the resident cat's toys and vice versa. Allow them to smell each other's scent and you know, learn that, hey, when I smell that something good happens, I get to play, I get treats, and then you can again slowly introduce them from there. But yeah, I think that really just throwing the cat out there doesn't work. You really need a slow introduction, first with scent, then let them see each other but maybe not have physical interaction, and then don't don't progress to the physical, actual meeting without any kind of barrier. Until you've done those steps and all cats involved are seemingly showing that there isn't a lot of stress or tension between them, absolutely.

Kristiina Wilson:

Okay. So my other question about the intercat guidelines is that, going back to your review of free-ranging cats, it noted that the aggressive encounters, which were very few, but the ones that did occur, occurred mostly around feeding time and food. So, based on that, would you suggest that people who have intercat tension not feed cats together or at the same time, obviously when they have a multi-cat household?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, I think putting space between the cats during feeding is ideal for that. There was another paper too I don't think we cited it in the guidelines, but that looked at frustration behaviors prior to feeding and that cats get really frustrated when you're preparing their meals and all of this. So I think both feeding them spaced out as well as reducing the time that you're like prepping their meals and all of this, so I think both feeding them spaced out as well as reducing the time that you're like prepping their meals.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

All of that together can help reduce some of that stress during feeding time. Yeah, and even using like food puzzles and stuff like giving them their space. But then, also giving them their space to do cat things, such as food getting behaviors that can help even more Absolutely.

Kristiina Wilson:

Yeah, so what are some misconceptions about cat behavior that you find still persist among the public, and maybe even among professionals?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, I mean, I think, just this idea of just how social they are and how important social interaction is to them. I mean there are still people in the field who really talk about this solitary ancestor and how that informs their current social behavior, which I'm not saying it doesn't. But we also need to look at the fact that domestic cats have been through thousands of years of evolution from the African wildcat and they live in a very different situation than the African wild cat ever did. And so we can't really say, just because their ancestor was this way, they're this way, right, especially when a lot of the evidence is showing us just this flexible nature of their behavior. And actually, real quick, coming back to this feeding, one thing we say to recommend for cats in the home might not be what we see cats outside doing. And I mentioned, I studied this colony of cats and there were 30 of them and they would all eat in two massive feeding groups together, with very little, little aggression shown. Now I wouldn't say probably to feed all 13 of your cats together like that in the house. Now, I wouldn't say probably to feed all 13 of your cats together like that in the house. There's different constraints and things.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

But I think just that these broad statements that all cats are one way or this way is something that we're still trying to like get over in the field of cat behavior. There's so much nuance to cat behavior, whether they're outdoors, whether they're indoors, what their experiences are, that it's hard to just say all cats are this way or that way. And even when I talk, you know not every cat is going to live in social groups. There are cats that are solitary and live outdoors and don't live with other cats and don't live with people. So we see everything, yeah, and it really depends on that individual what they need and, based on that, how, how we can improve their welfare absolutely and I think there's like so much of this, like dog versus cat mentality, because you know, dogs came from social ancestor, cats didn't.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

So it must still like all of these things must still be true. But I think there's less differences between dogs and cats than people make it out to be. Now, that's not to say that there's obviously species-specific differences Cats are cats, dogs are dogs. But in terms of their ability to engage in social interactions, to read our social behavior, our cues, each other's social behavior and cues, I don't know if there's as much a difference as people like to make it seem.

Kristiina Wilson:

Oh, I don't think there is either. I think it's just that cats require a little bit more work from us, maybe to notice that, yeah, versus dogs, who have been selectively bred and chosen for characteristics that we understand and that correspond to us, so that we more readily understand their communication, and vice versa. I don't know if that's part of why there's still that kind of ideology that you know, oh, dogs just understand us better and I, like you, I don't think that that's true at all, but I do think that cats maybe just tend to require just a little bit more participation from us.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, and I think some of it is like that subtleness to their behavior and I think at least, like it's easier for people maybe to understand how a dog is feeling from looking at their behavior.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

I don't know if that's just like exposure to dogs or like because something about it is more human-like to us or they have more facial muscles that they're using to express themselves than cats. But I do think there's something a little more intuitive to dog behavior, at least for a lot of people, than cat, and that might be where the disconnect is, because I've had people in my training classes where their cat's just sitting up on the tower and to me I'm looking at the cat, this cat looks relaxed, it just is looking around, it's fine. But the at the cat, this cat looks relaxed, it just is looking around, it's fine. But the owner is like, oh, my cat looks upset, my cat looks angry, but to me the cat's just looking right. And so I think that sometimes we're attributing things like to the cat that aren't there, and maybe some of that is because their face isn't as expressionate and might look upset or whatever. But yeah, I think that there's not as many differences as we like to make it seem. I agree.

Kristiina Wilson:

So, based on all your research, what are the most important steps that cat caregivers can take to improve their cat's welfare?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Really making sure that they have the ability to express those natural behaviors. So what makes a cat a cat? Well, they need to be able to scratch things. They need to be able to engage in food getting behaviors. They need to be able to deposit their scent. That doesn't always mean urine spraying and things like that. That could mean rubbing against things or scratching, which also deposit scent. So really just like kind of thinking of those key behaviors. Like cats like to be up high, so let's find ways to get them up high. They need to engage in food getting behaviors, so let's give them enrichment so they can work for their food. That's really going to be. The main thing is focusing on their welfare through the expression of these natural behaviors, and part of that is engaging in social interaction with other people and maybe other species or other cats as well.

Kristiina Wilson:

All right cool. And lastly, are there any upcoming studies you're working on or other areas of feline behavior research that you're really excited about?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, well, there's just been a ton of really interesting studies coming out in general, which I mentioned, one with the AI and the measuring facial expressions, and there's been some really interesting work out of Japan looking at the ability of cats to match the face of companion cats, which is really interesting. They're paying attention to the other cats in their homes and even their names. So a lot of that really interesting work coming out. In terms of our work, right now we're conducting a study at Oregon State University looking at basically using cats for animal assisted intervention roles. So we have children with developmental differences bring their pet cats into Oregon State and they go through a training class with them and we're basically looking at the outcome both for the child and the cat.

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Do see any improvements? Do we see any changes in that relationship? So that's one study. We'll have hopefully some data to present in the next year or two. Um, and then I've got some other research hopefully coming out at the end of this year on the impact of training and socialization classes on cat social cognition. So keep an eye out for that. Hopefully that'll all be accepted and published.

Kristiina Wilson:

Awesome. Well, I am, I'm very excited for both of those. I mean, I'm I'm always excited to see more cat research. Just, I feel like it's only so recently that like there's been this influx of cat research being seen as more valid. I mean, even when I did my master's, which wasn't that long ago, I couldn't do it on cats, it wasn't allowed. Yeah so, and then the year after I, you know, got my degree, everyone was doing cat research there and I was like darn rude, so rude, yeah yeah. But it's nice to see it kind of being more, more open and more relevant to people, and I, I love that absolutely yeah, yay, all right, well, thank you, so so much.

Kristiina Wilson:

This was so awesome. It was really great to talk to you and thank you again for all of the work that you do for cats. Um, is there? Do you have a website? Is there anything you want to shout out for people if they want to work with you, if they want to look you up?

Dr. Kristyn Vitale:

Yeah, um, I can be found online at malayscom that's M-A-U-E-Y-E-Scom, and then I'm on YouTube and Instagram under Malays as well, so feel free to reach out to me. I'm happy to chat, all right, thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me.

Kristiina Wilson:

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review wherever you listen. It super helps For more information and to support our podcast. Check out our website at hissandtellpodcastcom. You can also find us on Instagram at hissandtellpodcast. You can also find us on Instagram at hissandtellpodcast. Music provided by Cat Beats.

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